KnotEnthusiast
KnotEnthusiast
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I think if you always got the perfect setup on Corrupt, where 3 gens on one side of the map are blocked, it would be a good perk. It's a small slowdown, but it also forces survivors to move towards you for easy early game pressure. The problem is that when I run it half the game it'll block 2 gens on one side and one on the other, so it's essentially worthless.
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@DWolfAlpha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465068#Comment_1465068
If you go up against a killer that counters loops, and you can't use stealth to, you know, avoid being in a chase in the first place, I would posit that you haven't "mastered the mechanics of the game." Almost every killer that counters loops is beaten by stealth. Except for Doctor. Still have trouble figuring out how to counter him.
Avoiding confrontation is not "mastering" DBD. That's like saying you're good at a Battle Royale because you hide until endgame. And if your argument for something balance is just "don't get chased 4head" then that just proves that it's not balanced lol
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SS: Nurse will always be the highest skill cap, as well as the lowest skill floor. Unpracticed nurses are easy stomps, the best nurses are arguably unbeatable.
S: Both Huntresses and Billies have difficult techs/skills that differentiate very high level players from those that are just "good". Amazing billies master curves around short loops to get consistent downs, and Huntresses know hitboxes of survivors and hatchets and can abuse them to get hits that look impossible.
A: All of these killers have powers that take some level of mastery, but it's usually one or two small tricks that differentiate them from worse players. like knowing Wraith's windstorm lunge or Doctor's shock timing. At the end of the day most of these guys are pretty standard, but they do have some level of acquired skill that can put them a step above.
B: really nothing special to these killers, other than simple mindgames or techs. Some have perks that synergize with their powers well, like Bubba and PWYF/Nemesis or Pig/Demo and STBFL, but still not much to go off of.
C: haha legion go zoom, clown throw bottle, freddy place snare, spirit own headphones. All of these killers have powers that can be picked up and instantly used to high effect, if not mastered. The most braindead players can get close to max value out of these killers.
Note: this is not the strength of the killer I'm rating, but how high the skill ceiling is compared to the floor. Higher ratings have a noticeable difference between a new player to that specific killer, whereas low ranks can master them somewhat easily.
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@superpanda999 said:
Stealth becoming more popular would make the game so much better in my opinion. Survivor matches would finally feel like a true horror game instead of just an endless running & looping simulator. However, this would also lead to a rise in Doctor players since he is the perfect counter to stealth and looping. Maybe a buff to stealth or a Doctor nerf would help with that? Still, I really can’t wait for those graphic updates!
Jesus christ, no it wouldn't. Imagine if every single game as killer was just "find the blendette on Yamaoka's" but with every single survivor and every single game. I don't play this game for hide and seek, I play for outsmarting people in chase. If they reorient the game around stealth, I know I (and a very large portion of the playerbase) would be gone.
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@TheMonadoBoi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465111#Comment_1465111
You're not listening to what I'm saying. You can still drop pallets and vault windows to extend chases but with these killers survivors are no longer IN CONTROL of the chase.
There are now repercussions to mindlessly looping the same tiles over and over and over, and you must plan a route ahead and strategically move between tiles to juke the killer. It requires much more skill from BOTH sides, but since survivors now have to plan as much as killers in chase instead of just going around the same tile 5 times it's a problem and unfun gameplay. You can still fake a vault, you can still stun the killer, you can do the same things you always have, you just have to be strategic now.
But you literally can't, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. The survivor is left with zero options against a competent PH, because no matter what they do, they get hit. PH's lack of cooldown picking up his sword means that faking a pallet drop or vault results in zero distance gained, and dropping a pallet early just causes the PH to respect it and hit you vaulting over, or kicking it immediately and forcing the exact same situation 8 seconds later. You've yet to explain to me what a survivor can do against a PH that results in them extending a chase, other than "play smart".
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@Flarefire_Xx said:
I like head on but the fact that I can be stunned when I’m beside the locker and not in front of it is astounding(killer hit boxes 🤣
Yeah, the lingering hitbox is definitely frustrating. But I do think it's stronger than "just a meme"
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@TheMonadoBoi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465088#Comment_1465088
It's part of being an efficient survivor to 1 be alert and 2 know when to start running from the killer, you're making it seem like he's not loud as hell and you cannot plan your route in case he comes.
On top of that "hold W till the killer gets bored of me" is 90% of killers. Pig, a chasing wraith/hag, clown, etc literally have to eat loop after loop after loop cause they have no way to catch up/bait survivors. Giving survivors TOTAL CONTROL of loops and chases is the literal complete opposite of balance.
But that's exactly the problem: with other killers dropping pallets and vaulting windows is the way survivors can elongate the chase. With PH a vault is a hit. A pallet is a hit. If you drop the pallet early, PH just respects it and forces you to vault it again next loop, and you get hit. So survivors have no delay tactic besides just run in a straight line.
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@TheMonadoBoi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465077#Comment_1465077
You took nothing from what I said. You can effectively loop the building once or twice BEFORE he can successfully bait the hit, unless you're terrible at tight looping you can know for sure WHEN he'll be able to hit you and play accordingly, it is only after you've ALLOWED the killer to get close enough to get in this win/win scenario that they can successfully pull it off. You knew it could happen and you decided to play the same way you do with every other M1 killer.
He's a 115 killer, unless you were 40 yards away from him to start, he'll be right on top of you in 1 loop. And that still doesn't provide any solution for the problem I've raised: it just sounds like your solution to running a PH is just "hold W until I go down"
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@xenotimebong said:
Who’s even considered a fun killer anymore? I’ve seen every single killer get called boring by this point, but aside from Billy who a lot of survivor mains love for some reason, who else is there? Demo, maybe?
Honestly beyond Spirit, PH, Deathslinger and Hag, I don't have a problem with any killers these days. And even Hag I don't mind as long as they're not the type that spams 7 traps at a hook. Certain killers can play scummy, like Ghostface, Freddy or Leatherface, but they're not inherently unfun.
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@TheMonadoBoi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465018#Comment_1465018
Why is a killer being able to route effectively the problem? I didn't want to contribute to such a pointless thread but I think what you mention is important to discuss.
It's really not that deep, the problem is survivors REFUSE to change the way they play no matter what. Let's say PH is chasing you around killer shack, you can safely loop it twice and then run away or drop the pallet, assuming the third time you try to loop the building he WILL be able to bait/use his ranged attack to hit you anyway. You could have dropped the pallet early or left but survivors want to always have the upper hand in chases, absolutely nothing the killer can do, cause it's my right to loop this building AT LEAST THREE TIMES.
And the killer is supposed to be the "scary" and powerful side?
But exactly the same scenario: you run into shack, and you have the option of the window or the pallet. PH behind you drops his sword into the ground. Now, no matter what you do, you get hit. If you take the window, he hits you with range while animation locked. If you drop the pallet, same thing. If you just run thru the pallet, he just picks up his sword with 0 cooldown and m1s you. That's the frustrating thing. You're forced into a situation where, despite every resource you have, you have to take a hit.
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@Falkner09 said:
uh huh. are "boring killers" defined as "killers I lost against because my usual methods dont work on this new one?"
Cause that's how all the other survivors with this complaint define it.
Yes, literally that. I should be rewarded as a player for mastering the mechanics of the game, and my experience should matter and help me win chases. Killers like Spirit, Deathslinger and PH all can get downs with very little possible input from the survivor, unless the killer is bad. And that's not the way the game should be, and therein lies the problem with BHVR's current design philosophy: They're so obsessed with making killers "anti-loop" that they've essentially removed survivor skill from the equation. It's just like old Legion, where going down isn't an "if" but a "when". So yes, when my thousand hours in this game is suddenly meaningless because the killer ignores survivor input, it is very boring.
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That's an absolutely horrible idea. Not only would it get boring as all #########, certain killers like Michael or Demo would literally never be played because their maps are horrible for killer. Plus half the killers in the game would be confined to one single map. Even if that map was somehow balanced towards the killer, it would be tremendously boring.
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@CrazyChicken_DK said:
You need to be straight behind the survivor. Who unhook.
If you are a bit to the side. You'll hit the survivor hanging.
Which intentionelly does not connect.
That's not what I'm talking about. Did you watch the clip I sent? The survivor unhooking will just not be able to be hit, despite clearly being in front of the killer and in range.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1442448#Comment_1442448
Nah, it still rewards good Huntress players by allowing chase times to be short, but it stops bad players from spamming hatchets in order to get easy downs.
But it denies Huntress her biggest strength: snowballing. The reason Huntress is so good at times is because she has the ability to chain 2-3 downs together if she catches survivors healing or off guard. With Iri Head locked at 1 hatchet, she has no choice but to drop chase on anyone else she could have started a snowball on, or else chase as a 110 killer with no power.
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@Pulsar said:
Meh. In my opinion, the only change Iri Head needs is to be locked at 1 hatchet.
This would genuinely make Iri Head meme tier. Imagine Hillbilly but every chainsaw he'd have to go to a locker to get gas.,
@FreakPrince said:
Just make it like Deathslinger. It’s only an instadown within 15 meters.
Basically this. Keep at 5 hatchets, require a long distance.
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Not a bug, they temporarily increased the cap to account for the BP gift they gave out. IIRC it's 1,444,444 right now.
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@OutcastEric said:
Bored of this event and update. New map is horrible to play on both sides. Pyramid head is boring and unfun to play as for me. I Have the event cosmetics I want and the fact that the mid chapter patch is nerfing yet another killer, I cant bring myself to turn the game on anymore. We need content at a faster rate that isnt lackluster. Most of us have literally played the same game for 4 years now. It's almost as dry as call of duty at this point for me lol.
Honestly I think the opposite. I'd so much rather they quit making new chapters for like a quarter and just focus on fixing all the bugs in the game. I have insane amounts of fun when the game works well, but nothing turns me off playing DBD more than experiencing some bug that ruins a game.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/171809/why-killers-fear-decisive
So... they're afraid of the stun. Because it causes all of that.
Killers aren't afraid of the stun, they're afraid of not being able to move for 5 seconds while the survivor gets distance! I am very smart.
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@Rey_512 said:
You’re both right and wrong, OP.
Fun should absolutely be considered when balancing a game like this. For example, nobody reasonable finds mechanics with ZERO counterplay (infinite mending Legion, deep wound timer going down DURING chase, etc.) fun. Before anyone says DS doesn’t have counterplay, yes it does - slugging and/or going for someone else. When you have absolutely zero options against a certain tactic then it becomes both unfun and unhealthy for the game. For example, camping Leatherface is not fun and I think that should be considered when balancing this killer (hopefully his new “charge mechanic” prevents this, but doesn’t seem likely).
However, Spirit is not an unfun killer just because she is difficult to play against. In fact, her stupidly good addons were nerfed to even the playing field. I think she’s in a good place right now, except for maybe giving her a more reliable visual tell when she’s phasing (I think we all agree that her Stand Still at Pallet “mindgame” is ridiculous as it requires no skill to do). Gunslinger is a great chase killer but, like Spirit, is 110% and map pressure starts lacking.
In conclusion, fun should be taken into account but for the right reasons. If a killer is unfun because a power/addon doesn’t have counterplay then it should be looked at. If a survivor just doesn’t want to learn how to face a certain killer because they require different counterplay, then NO - the killer is fine.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, and it just shows exactly how OP did not watch Scott's video. Killers aren't unfun because they're good, they're unfun because the experienced gained by playing the game means nothing. I could be the best survivor in the world, and I still would have to just take a complete random guess as to whether or not a spirit is phasing when she stands still. Or on the other end of the spectrum, I still have to drop a pallet 9 years early when in clown gas. It has little to do with how good a killer is, but everything to do with how applicable your skills are to playing against them.
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"You're the best Oni I've ever played against, the curves you were pulling off were insane."
That one gave me the warm fuzzies inside
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@Reaver_Raziel said:
Ahh three things
OoO
OoO
and OoO
I can honestly say I have started despising this perk more than any other thing in this game. Keys/moris/Haddonfield/Spirit nothing comes close to how goddamn frustrating this perk is to try and play against. There are only 2 options for me when I notice I play against it. Instant dc, with an apology for leaving(Luckily I dont have to feel too bad since most people that run it have proven to be massiv ######### in the chat afterwards) or I just down the guy and camp him. I win most of those latter games because the users team mates come running to him to suicide save him.
Tbh I always tunnel the Object players, they're the one exception to my "no tunnel" philosophy. If you wanna run a perk that makes me pay attention to you, then you better be prepared. Though I usually play Wraith/Oni, so either I get free info while cloaked or destroy them in blood fury, so OoO doesn't really affect me that much.
My answers:
Current Mori Mechanics (change it to require every survivor to be hooked once)
All Licensed Maps
Pyramidhead (or at least change his kit a bit)
Current moris encourage tunneling, so IMO just change it so that every person has to be on the hook once to start killing. Gives survivors decent counterplay in terms of having those not hooked yet playing safe to save their teammates, plus encourages against tunneling by incentivizing the killer to down everyone.
I came to the realization that there is not a single good licensed map in the game. Hawkins, Midwich and The Game are all atrocious indoor maps that are just terrible to play on both sides. Haddonfield is legendarily bad, even after 2 years of being considered the worst map in the game. The least ######### one is Badham, but since they made 5 of them you get them so bloody often that they've become just as annoying. Plus multiple god buildings can spawn making them just very frustrating to play as killer. There are certainly bad maps that aren't licensed (Ormond and Lery's are prime examples), but those are just two compared to the 9 horrible licensed maps. Just nuke 'em.
And finally, Pyramidhead. He's awful for 2 reasons: easiest tunneling in the game, and lack of counterplay at loops. A PH can get you out of the game in less than 3 minutes if he wants to be a dick, by hook-cage-hooking you. Nothing you can really do against him, except just hope that you don't get downed fast. Which is usually impossible due to 2: zero counterplay at loops. If you're running up to a vault/pallet, all PH has to do is start dragging his sword aiming at the vault/pallet, and it's a free hit. You drop the pallet/vault the window, he hits you while you're animation-locked and you get hit. And if you fake it, he just pulls his sword up out of the ground with 0 cooldown and m1s you, and you get hit. Nothing the survivor can do.
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@Velarica said:
Switch killer/survivor here. Play both in the red ranks. Really as a killer I have one issue with second chance perks. Specifically DS, its a fine perk it prevents tunneling to a degree. What bugs me is when survivors with DS think they are invulnerable and just run into your face to bait you to down them and pick them up. Essentially the issue is someone can pretend to have DS without actually running it (I dont see many people doing this i think its only me TBH) The threat of the perk will make the killer not pick you up whether you have it or not.
From a meta game POV this makes the perk far more powerful than the stats it actually has. Of course its not as if there is really a way to fix this, just my issue with the perk. Otherwise I think Second chance perks do a good job of enforcing fun gameplay for both sides.
Basically this. I have 0 problem with the concept of DS, just when it's weaponized for an essential invincibility state it's very frustrating. Doubly so for DS/Unbreakable. Unbreakable I hate with a passion due to how many games I've lost because of it, but I think survivors need an anti-slug perk so I don't think it needs to go. Though perhaps swap the faster recover over to Tenacity and give Unbreakable the faster crawl speed. That, plus making DS stop working if someone else gets hooked and I'd be totally happy. As for others, DH and Sprit Burst can be annoying, but they're one time use in a chase and at the end of the day I don't really care. I've never been hit by Soul Guard, and BT I can just play around if I need to, don't have a problem with that one. If anything, I think it should get a small buff: make it distance based rather than TR, so that it effects Freddy and cloak-camp Ghostface.
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It really does depend on the killer. Certain ones that have really good map pressure, or force survivors to play safe like Billy, Nurse and Oni get huge value out of ruin, but that's until it gets cleansed. At the end of the day, Pop is just way more consistent.
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@Zephinism said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422334#Comment_1422334
You refuse to listen and invent your own reality. It's scary in a sense and proves how futile it is for anyone to engage in a proper discussion with you.
They're like the DBD version of Trump supporters. Any facts or statistics that don't fit their agenda are "fake news"
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422352#Comment_1422352
It's so cute how you try to get a rise out of me, like one of the cool kids! Someday, you'll grow up and admit your mistakes.
I could easily play DBD with friends, but it's boring and easy and we win even when we're mostly talking about non-DBD stuff. Even idle callsouts once every few minutes is enough of a help to keep us from losing.
But given your screen name, you're..what? 12? I don't think I've ever seen someone try as hard as you to be edgy. Avoiding the swear filter by changing a letter! Whoo! You're a man now! Rofl.
Scurry back to your SWF squad and 4 second-chance perks and pretend it took you any skill whatsoever to win while you badmouth the Killer in endgame chat like whatever view-hungry streamer or meming youtuber you watch. But don't forget your homework. That's a good boy.
So let me ask you this, then. What proof do you have that SWF is OP and gamebreaking? I have my opinion, SWF isn't OP, and can back it up by both BHVR's released stats which corroborate my claim, as well as a small bit of critical thinking: if information was the most important thing in the game (the only benefit that SWF gives), then why wouldn't perks like Bond, Kindred, Alert, or other information perks be the most used perks in the game, rather than DH/Sprint Burst, Decisive, Unbreakable and Borrowed Time? I think it's because the most important aspect to winning games is prolonging chases, not having info. And SWF doesn't win you chases.
So I have my opinion, backed up by provided stats, as well as my theory. What support does your theory have? Besides your lack of performance as a killer and complaint posts on the forum.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422344#Comment_1422344
BHVR is lying because BHVR also lies about the struggle mechanic; they just CANNOT accept when they make mistakes.
Struggle mechanic: A mistake. People have told them it PHYSICALLY HURTS THEM, and the devs say they won't change it. Because they can't admit it was a stupid idea.
So believing they would cover up ANOTHER mistake (SWF) because they can't admit it was a bad idea is not that much of a stretch, dude. if they did it once, they can do it twice.
Stop being a white knight and actually use your brain.
I'm a white knight because I don't believe that there's a developer conspiracy to lie about SWF stats. Alright bud.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422335#Comment_1422335
Here we go; personal attacks because you're EZ SWF wins are being attacked.
It'\s fine; it's not your fault the devs added such a broken mechanic & can't fix it. Just accept that any game you win in SWF was not of your own skill, and you're not as good as you think you are. Accept that SWF is inherently broken and OP.
With acceptance comes peace.
And it's not your fault that the forums have made you believe that SWF is some evil boogeyman that causes you to lose half your games, rather than you just having room to improve as a killer. And who knows! Perhaps someday you'll actually get friends as well, play SWF, and see that comms don't make players good. But that first step might be a bit out of reach.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422321#Comment_1422321
I believe BHVR is skewing the results. We have nothing but their word that SWF barely affects the game, when it gives people every observation perk in one, makes it 10x easier to escape while not paying attention, and playing games is just better with friends.
I'm convinced that they added it, then realized too late that it was OP, and now can't remove it. But rather tahn say 'yeah, we screwed up and now we can't fix it', they just flash fake numbers on a meaningless graph and say 'See! You're all imagining it!'
Ahh yes, the "BHVR is lying about the stats" argument. The devs are clearly in the pocket of Big SWF are lying to cover up the obvious hacks of talking to each other.
Do you even listen to yourself? A small part of me hopes they implement endgame SWF showings so trash killers will suddenly see that half the Depip Squad SWFs they think they go against are just solo survivors better than they are. But then it'd also cause them to cry "SWF IS OP!!!!!111!" when they lose to a 2 man after chasing a single survivor for 4 gens.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1421669#Comment_1421669
The fact that you defend it shows you abuse it. Git gud and stop using Cheat With Friends.
Let me throw out a scenario:
Wraith kicks a generator after a Survivor in SWF hid nearby. SWF Cheater tells their buddy 'He just kicked my gen in the Shack and is heading your way'. So SWF Cheater #2 hides long before Wraith gets to him. Thus he is unseen, and thus unchased, and unhooked.
Now, let's remove Cheat With Friends: Wraith kicked Shack gen. Hiding Survivor can't tell anyone what just happened, so the Wraith walks away and gets to another gen that Survivor #2 is still working on. Thus Wraith uncloaks, chases, and hooks Survivor #2.
Cheat With Friends is literally the difference between winning and losing, and gives you 6 or 7 perks for free, without counting the 4 second chance perks Survivors can now take in in their place.
Cheat With Friends is flat out cheating. It can swing games in ways that would NEVER happen if it was never added to the game.
And the only people who would defend it are people who never play Killer, and want to keep abusing SWF for EZ matches where they twerk out the exit gate & abuse the Killer afterwards, while pretending SWF took any personal skill instead of the truth that it spoon-fed them a win.
And the fact that you think that it's as gamebreaking as it is shows that you're probably a rank 12 killer main who thinks flashlight saves are toxic.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1422212#Comment_1422212
Except SWF has a clear advantage, replacing every single information-based perk plus adding a few more, PLUS letting Survivors run 4 second chance perks alongside all this info.
Even the most brain dead Survivor would win with all that advantage.
So explain why BHVR's stats showed that 4 man SWF survives only 9% more than solo survivors? Perhaps because having information doesn't make you suddenly a god at the game, just you have information. I think the reason people think SWF is so powerful is because its rare to get 4 solo queue survivors that aren't potatoes, so going against 4 decent players in one lobby feels oppressive, regardless of communication status. To which my response is, yet again, git gud.
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@Zoomies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1421630#Comment_1421630
So do Survivors.
The difference is that Killers want to avoid SWF, the use of which is borderline cheating. And BHVR ignores them.
Survivors just ask Daddy BHVR for nerfs to any Killer who so much as downs them once. And BHVR promptly makes it happen.
Git gud.
No, really. SWF is not borderline cheating. At best it gives the survivors the same effect as a couple of decent perks, and invalidates a couple of ######### killer ones. And half the time it's just a bunch of friends playing games together, not trying to be overly competitive. If you think SWF is some magical borderline cheat, then you're probably not even going against SWFs, just actually decent survivors. Mediocre survivors in SWF are still mediocre, just now with communication. There's no reason you can't beat them just because they can talk to each other.
In short, git gud.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1411366#Comment_1411366
Again and like many others you assume those flicks are done in a vacuum. When in truth a Billy will spend time using his chainsaw to travel the map before attempting a flick. Never mind how many attempts a good Billy will make or how often he also uses the chainsaw as a mindgame.
Any, ANY, Billy worth a damn is going to be using his chainsaw to travel the map. And once he already has some heat built up from map travel. He wont have any heat to spare to even attempt a curve. Not till several seconds afterwards, but by then he should have just landed a M1 anyway rendering a chainsaw hit a waste of time/effort. Making the chainsaw a one trick pony. You either use it for travel or hits. Not both.
Exactly this. So many people are whining that Billy needs a nerf cuz backrev OP, but all this nerf will do is turn billy into a backrev bot. No more intelligent zoning with chainsaws, no more curves around loops, just run up, hold m2, instadown, repeat.
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Damn, mad props to BHVR, that's actually super awesome of them. Extending the event and a half million BP gift.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1419231#Comment_1419231
Ghostface's reveal mechanic is irrelevant in evaluating his ability as a stealth Killer. If you are being revealed you have failed at stealth. And pig can absolutely attack while crouched, we just call it ambush when she does.
And yes I know T1 Myers is weaker, but T1 Myers is also extremely easy to get out of and unlike Human form isn't expected to get hits on Survivors unless you are using Mirror Myers.
Anyways I'm drafting some changes so gimme a sec. I'm not changing Human forms status as 110% undetectable but I will give it a transformation que.
It's absolutely relevant when discussing the fairness of a stealth killer though. I just think you've designed a power spike killer where both forms are the power spike, and survivors have 0 idea which one they're up against until they're already dead.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1419177#Comment_1419177
Which is why he's 110%. If we are comparing it to stealth Killers then the only thing weaker is T1 Myers, and he's much easier to get the payoff from.
Ghostface is 115% and can expose Survivors, Wraith has an increased movement speed in stealth and is invisible on top of undetectable and Pig has her ambush for anti-loop and has a lot of built in stall
If you directly compared the Human form to any of them it's clear that he's outclassed. I COULD have just made him like the Oni, where he's a basic 115% Killer unless he's transformed. But then the transformation mechanic loses any tactical merit. The way things are now, Human form can succeed but in different ways than how the Wolf form succeeds.
That gives transforming tactical merit. Sure you always want to chase as a wolf, but there is a real choice to make about when to patrol as wolf vs human and if you should try to ambush as human but risk being spotted early vs transform and start the chase as wolf. A stealthy 110% Killer like this isn't really THAT much stronger than a 115% Killer (yes it's stronger but it's by a relatively small amount), but is far more distinct.
An audio que when turning into a Human COULD work, but would need to not reveal his location because that would defeat the point.
All 3 stealth killers you mentioned have drawbacks though: Myers has movespeed, Ghostface can be detected and pulled out of stealth which is on a very long cooldown, and Pig can't attack while crouched. This guy would be permastealth with very few drawbacks, plus the added bonus of Survivors not knowing if he was in stealth.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1418907#Comment_1418907
Ok there is something you seem to be misunderstanding a bit.
The Human form isn't supposed to be weak, weaker than wolf form sure but it needs to be usable. The form isn't for chasing which is why it's 110%. But it's not WEAK either. Also by having it be perma-undetectable 110% it's also unique compared to other stealth Killers. 16 meter 115% is just T2 Myers after all and it's not like Ghostface doesn't have plenty of advantages over this Killer stealthwise.
Remember, you are expected to want to willingly use Human form even after the Wolf form is available. If he's too weak then the taint status and beast tokens won't be enough to make up for it.
As for why it's hard to get tokens, I've always found that by putting a lot of power into somethings payoff rather than it's ease of use you can have an overall stronger result without making something braindead easy. By making it so that you have to actually down a Survivor as 110% to get Wolf Form I don't need to consider giving Wolf Form an inherent downside. And by having you continue to need to actually get hits in as 110% and get downs I can continue to have a strong payoff on top of being a 120% Killer.
This was actually a big problem I was having in V1 for this Killer. Since I was making a 120% Killer, he couldn't have an inherently strong power on top of it, but a weak power isn't interesting to use. So my options were to add a strong power and a downside to being 120% or only have a super weak power.
By instead gating the strong mechanics by the Human form, I can make those mechanics stronger and thus more interesting.
So by having Human form be a 110% Stealth Killer that needs to get downs I accomplish the following:
- The distinction in use between the Human and Wolf form is extremely clear. There is no question about why you'd want to use Human form over Wolf form sometimes since he fills a niche
- Human form has lots of counterplay, since Stealth is inherently counterable by awareness and prediction and being 110% prevents brute force as a viable option
- Human form can still succeed despite that counterplay, Stealth is a very health mechanic like that.
- Because of that counterplay, wolf form can be strong as a reward much like T3 Myers
- The vast distinction between Human and Wolf form adds to the skill cap in choosing which form to use at any given moment, rather than just using wolf the entire game once you are able. A 16 TR 115% Killer is too similar in function to the Wolf while a 0 TR 110% Killer doesn't have nearly as much overlap. This is extremely important since a 120% Killer does not inherently have a particularly high skill cap.
As for movement speed altering. What exactly is the issue? Hindered isn't an inherently problematic status effect especially at lower %'s (it won't stop fast vaults or anything) and movement speed alterations also reward players with healthy gameplay styles disproportionately (ex: Campers do not benefit from more movement speed, Killers that patrol distant gens get more use out of it than a Killer in a 3 gen ect). The eventual 5% MS increase also acts as a great final reward for putting in a lot of effort which goes back to what I said earlier about Payoff>Consistency.
Prayer statues are like they are for a similar reason but I can see changing them anyways. So I'll look into that I guess.
Just as a good way of illustrating the difference in the two statuses you're suggesting, your version is a killer that can transfer from a T1 Myers but with Spirit movespeed to permanent Feral Frenzy Legion that can down in his power and sees scratchmarks/blood, with 0 tell as to which form they are in. That's just far too much diversity and power for one killer.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
@Furry_Fuccboi thanks for your feedback btw. I really AM curious why you find movement speed alterations to be problematic. I'm aware of the balance considerations but I've always thought of them as one of the better things to tweak from a fun perspective.
And movement speed is one of the most crucial aspects of the game: it's why Huntress and Deathslinger feel so much slower and are so much worse in direct chase despite only being 5% slower. It's also why there's only 1 perk in the game that adjusts movement speed, and it's tied behind a mechanic that's difficult to stack and easy to clear. With your idea, you're massively increasing the speed of the killer and also reducing the speed of the survivor, with only one option to clear only one aspect of it it from a survivor's perspective, which is not available in chase. Like you mentioned, hindered does exist in the game: huntress hatchet addons, clown bottles, freddy snares. But they're all temporary hinders, none more than a few seconds, and are all still very very strong. You're suggesting an effective 15% hinder status (-5% survivor, +10% to killer) which is exactly how much clown bottles hinder you for, but it lasts at minimum the entire chase, if not the entire rest of the game. That's ridiculously overpowered.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1418907#Comment_1418907
Ok there is something you seem to be misunderstanding a bit.
The Human form isn't supposed to be weak, weaker than wolf form sure but it needs to be usable. The form isn't for chasing which is why it's 110%. But it's not WEAK either. Also by having it be perma-undetectable 110% it's also unique compared to other stealth Killers. 16 meter 115% is just T2 Myers after all and it's not like Ghostface doesn't have plenty of advantages over this Killer stealthwise.
Remember, you are expected to want to willingly use Human form even after the Wolf form is available. If he's too weak then the taint status and beast tokens won't be enough to make up for it.
As for why it's hard to get tokens, I've always found that by putting a lot of power into somethings payoff rather than it's ease of use you can have an overall stronger result without making something braindead easy. By making it so that you have to actually down a Survivor as 110% to get Wolf Form I don't need to consider giving Wolf Form an inherent downside. And by having you continue to need to actually get hits in as 110% and get downs I can continue to have a strong payoff on top of being a 120% Killer.
This was actually a big problem I was having in V1 for this Killer. Since I was making a 120% Killer, he couldn't have an inherently strong power on top of it, but a weak power isn't interesting to use. So my options were to add a strong power and a downside to being 120% or only have a super weak power.
By instead gating the strong mechanics by the Human form, I can make those mechanics stronger and thus more interesting.
So by having Human form be a 110% Stealth Killer that needs to get downs I accomplish the following:
- The distinction in use between the Human and Wolf form is extremely clear. There is no question about why you'd want to use Human form over Wolf form sometimes since he fills a niche
- Human form has lots of counterplay, since Stealth is inherently counterable by awareness and prediction and being 110% prevents brute force as a viable option
- Human form can still succeed despite that counterplay, Stealth is a very health mechanic like that.
- Because of that counterplay, wolf form can be strong as a reward much like T3 Myers
- The vast distinction between Human and Wolf form adds to the skill cap in choosing which form to use at any given moment, rather than just using wolf the entire game once you are able. A 16 TR 115% Killer is too similar in function to the Wolf while a 0 TR 110% Killer doesn't have nearly as much overlap. This is extremely important since a 120% Killer does not inherently have a particularly high skill cap.
As for movement speed altering. What exactly is the issue? Hindered isn't an inherently problematic status effect especially at lower %'s (it won't stop fast vaults or anything) and movement speed alterations also reward players with healthy gameplay styles disproportionately (ex: Campers do not benefit from more movement speed, Killers that patrol distant gens get more use out of it than a Killer in a 3 gen ect). The eventual 5% MS increase also acts as a great final reward for putting in a lot of effort which goes back to what I said earlier about Payoff>Consistency.
Prayer statues are like they are for a similar reason but I can see changing them anyways. So I'll look into that I guess.
I disagree, from both a balance and thematic perspective. From a balance perspective, for power spike killers like Oni, there needs to be a payment made for the payoff: you need to get results with a weaker state in order to get to a stronger one. For the player to want to gamble to get more tokens rather than just pop the wolf state instantly, they should have to work with a weaker state in order to get them. Power spike killers are my favourite in the game (Oni in particular I think is the most fun killer they've ever designed), and I think the Wolf is a perfect candidate for that type of killer, but he needs to have a weaker state in order to make the power spike balanced. Another smaller note is that, as long as the player can transfer back into the human form (which would need a cooldown from attacking imo, now that I think about it) without any indication to the survivor, it needs to be a weaker form. A player can't have to worry about both a very high mobility killer with a big TR and also a still very mobile 0 TR stealth killer in the same match with zero indication as to which the killer is in, it's just not fair. And for thematically, it's werewolf: I'm not afraid of a werewolf in human form, save for the fact that he might infect me (tainted effect). Other than that, he's just a human. But in wolf form, he should be feared.
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>powering up the wolf form and consumes the taint
dude same
But seriously, this idea does seem pretty rad, if a bit complicated. I'm all for a werewolf killer, and I think the dual form is the best way of going about it. However, I think there's a bit too much going on, and a little too much variability in playstyle that would make him oppressive. I think having a 110 killer that's undetectable and has no way of pulling him out of stealth like Ghostface is too good for the "weaker" of his two forms. Low TR is fine, 0 TR or Red Stain is too good IMO. But then the flipside to that is having a basic M1 killer that's required to get startup for the main power be 110 is also pretty rough. I think 16m TR and 115 for base form would be better, but like I said, just my opinion!
Also, variability in survivor and killer movespeed as part of a power is a bit uncomfortable IMO, and same with stacking too many effects on a tokenset that the survivors don't know of. I personally think that tokens 2 and 5 should be removed, swap the order of lunge and aura reading, and make them 1, 3 and 5 stacks. But, as an added bonus, give those with the "feared" status effect audible whimpers, like injured sounds. Also, I think needing to down a survivor that's tainted to get beast tokens is a bit too involved: you need to get 2 hits in the "weaker" form to access the stronger, which would be a nightmare against good survivors. I think that every time you hit someone in your human form, you should apply the tainted status and receive a token. Similar to Oni's power, but less of a spike in power on a timer, more of an evolution.
And finally the statues. I love the idea of praying to remove the status effect. But I reeeally don't like the concept that the killer can just remove the option entirely. I think the killer should not be able to interact with them, but they are one-time use. You still keep the stacks, but this at least gives the survivors options to avoid the aura reading and noises, but have to be smart about utilization.
I think your perks are absolutely awesome. Incredibly useful, but not too overpowered (or in the case of the one that is, it's a hex totem). Small note though, I think Decay should be 5/4/3 vaults, and should notify the survivor when they first vault a pallet, rather than when the first one breaks. Small details!
Honestly, this is one of the coolest killer ideas I've ever seen, and while I know BHVR can't straight up use fan ideas, I hope they take heavy inspiration from this one. Really really awesome job!
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Because you're playing against other people, and dying every game as survivor would be boring. Just because your title is "killer" doesn't mean you're entitled to kills, it's the same line as the whole "power role" BS that people like to spout on here. If you want to kill more, as the old adage says, git gud.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1418010#Comment_1418010
Yep... spirit main here, too. I would argue that the problem lies in survivors being too dependent on the information that they're normally given. It's pretty similar to how survivors behave when the killer has undetectable or when their red stain is gone. Survivors don't know what to do because they crutch on that information.
Survivors do have a way to get information on what she's doing with spine chill, as the icon will go dim momentarily while phasing if she is standing directly across from you. You could also run perpendicular to the direction she's facing to make the icon go dark.
You guys have simply decided that she's broken and there's no way to counter her, and that's final. Yet, I've described a couple of ways you can know that she is phasing. I've actually said one of them multiple times in this same thread, but no one wants to tell me what's flawed about that approach.
I'm sorry mate, but you have to be trolling. Survivors "crutch" on information like...where a killer is, and where they're facing? That's literally 99% of the information they have. That's like saying using scratch marks as a killer is a crutch.
Also, just use spine chill 4head. If your solution to a killer's power is to run a perk (or in Spirit's case two, because iron will as well), then that's not a solution.
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@BBQ_n_Chillout said:
I suppose I'm the only who can see her crystals glow and hear her footsteps...got it. Oh and yeah stridor i forgot...that old find perk..not like there is nurse's calling, bbq n chili, whispers, bitter murmur, rancor. My bad. You're all right she's busted.
@schadenfreudez28 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1417773#Comment_1417773
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1417790#Comment_1417790
If you're far away, you hear the phasing noise.
If you're close, you don't hear anything at all.
If you see her, she shimmers white which is hard to miss.
If she's phasing, you can still hear her footsteps and bushes move.
There are a lot of ways to tell that she is phasing, a lot of people just don't pay attention.
It's funny, Scott Jund has had an open invitation for around a year now that invites anyone to go into a lobby with him, and just say when he's entered phase from tells. if you do, he'll publish a video with your name on it saying you've proven him wrong and that Spirit does in fact have tells.
0 people have taken him up on it. Wonder why.
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Honestly, I doubt it'll ever happen, for exactly the reason you said. So much of the game revolves around movespeed that introducing a killer that essentially has bloodlust 1 built in would require the devs to deliberately gimp their power to offset the movement speed, which just isn't really good from a design standpoint. I don't think anyone would really want to play a killer who's main draw is just moving slightly faster.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1417664#Comment_1417664
I'm sure if the overheat has too much of an negative impact on being able to play curve Hillbilly effectively, they'll tone the overheat down.
Have you met BHVR? They slapped Nurse with the basekit nerf bat, which introduced a shitload of bugs that make even the most dedicated, non-omegablink nurse players avoid her because she's so unfun and buggy. Then BHVR high-fived themselves, considered it a job well done, and hasn't touched her since. I expect the same with billy. Can't wait to get a false saw (which they've said they've fixed like 8 times now) and then have to wait 5 seconds for my chainsaw to cool down before I can try again.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Whispers is best at the beginning and end of the trial. It massively speeds up your initial patrol times since you can quickly check off gens you'd otherwise need to get closer to be sure aren't being worked on and can pinpoint where a Survivor is at the moment they cross the threshhold
And then towards the end of the game you can use it to find and finish off the last couple Survivors to secure the 4k.
In the middle of the trial it's still very useful but not as much as during the ends of the trial.
Basically this, Whispers is amazing for telling the killer where survivors aren't. Find a gen at the start of the game that's been worked on, but you see no scratch marks? Well whispers is off so you know they're not there, move on. Also whispers is the best post-hatch-close perk in the game. Patrol exit gates until it lights up, hang out until it turns off.
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When Mettle was first released, it was the most busted perk in the game. It was a free health state that made every m1 killer just complete hell to play, as you'd end up having 4 of your hits just completely invalidated at endgame if everyone ran it (and just about everyone did). Free speed burst, no mend time, just from getting hit earlier in the game.
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In addition to what MrDardon said, Monitor is also amazing on Oni because it synergizes so well with Infectious: it gives you a smaller terror radius when not in chase so you can get close to people without them running, then once in chase it gives you a large terror radius, so you get more hits on your Infectious Fright, as that depends on TR.
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Any killer that has the undetectable status (Freddy when in dream world, cloaked wraith, ghostface, t1 Myers, etc) will prevent BT from proccing, even if in a chase.
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God squad SWFs are arguably the most powerful thing in the game, but that has less to do with comms and more to do with getting 4 very good players together. SWF doesn't give skill, it gives coordination: survivors still have to be good at the game to be an effective SWF. 4 mediocre players will still be mediocre in a SWF, just slightly less so.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1399299#Comment_1399299
Also this kinda sums up why I would be opposed to this. I've had plenty of experiences where killers who played against me and some friends previously decided to bring in their most OP add ons and an ebony mori and slug and camp and tunnel and mori spam for 2 minutes and then come to post game chat and say that's what we get for being in a SWF. That's what we deserve for having fun with our friends. This would just literally create more of that.
And then on top of that, they'll just take away the accountability and chalk it up to "Oh, I just lost because it's a SWF" while ignoring the fact that they chased someone too long or they weren't patrolling gens enough or any of the other mistakes they may have made.
Exactly. If you need to know whether or not the team that just beat you is SWF or not, you're not looking to improve, you're looking for excuses.