KnotEnthusiast
KnotEnthusiast
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130417#Comment_3130417
"I never said Bamboozle wasn't good, I just said its lazy"
Bamboozle forces people to not be able to follow an "optimal loop pattern". Following an optimal loop pattern is lazy. I really don't like chess because you can memorize the counter to any potential move setup. DBD is exactly the same when you are chased by most of the M1 cast. Follow the optimal loop path until you can't anymore then throw the pallet. There is no innovation. It's route memorization. Bamboozle says no to that. You have to think of something different or I win.
"I believe Bamboozle is a lazy perk because it removes skill from the equation."
So you probably think chasing people with Nurse is lazy too right? Under normal conditions running a memorized loop pattern removes any perceived skill you think you have. It's literally monkey see - monkey do. Copy and Paste someone else's understanding of the game and run the most efficient loop on every tile. When I bring Bamboozle I erase everything you know about that tile and change it into a new tile that favors me.
"Mind games with the opposing side are dynamic, and to me that's the most fun part of DBD"
I'm not going ti humor this argument as it reinforce the idea : chases are fun when I am in control and not fun when I have zero control.
"All of this comes back to my original point: when I go against a top tier killer who mindgames me well and gets downs on me by anticipating and outsmarting me, I feel satisfied because I know that at that moment, he was the better player. When I go down because someone bamboozled a window, I just feel like someone used a perk to avoid having to put the time in to learn to outsmart people, they just let the perk do it."
It's boring to play Nurse and Blight because you move really fast, you have the advantage at almost every tile, you have crazy strong addons and it is your game to lose. For every other killer in the game it's the survivor's game to lose. They will win if they don't mess up. Because of this I don't play those killers.
The reality is that you can't outsmart people who have "questionable vision" with a mind game. I can't explain that better or the mods will delete this post for advertising non allowed behavior. There are also quite a few people who play DBD with subtle cheats. You literally can't catch them at loops without bloodlust. They absolutely hate Bamboozle because they have no idea what to do when you block their favorite window.
Also while you feel there are no mind games with Bamboozle - I can assure you there are plenty. When I play survivor I don't mind Bamboozle. I know exactly how I would play that window when I play killer and in what feels like 90% of cases I can make huge distance if I know they feel they need to block a window. I also listen for the "bloop" sound whenever a killer vaults a window. Most people could avoid a free hit from the "surprise" factor if they just learned to pay more attention - like you are forced to do as killer.
Bamboozle isn't a tool that rewards a killer for being lazy. It forces a survivor to not be lazy. You have to think of a new escape pattern and that requires on the fly adaptation. It also bumps up "bad killers" to be a real threat. People love to play against weak killers because they can loop them "forever" with very little effort. Don't be that kind of lazy.
"Bamboozle forces people to not be able to follow an "optimal loop pattern". Following an optimal loop pattern is lazy."
Did you not read any other part of my response saying that reading and reacting to the other player is what makes it fun? I agree running the "optimal path" is lazy, because
A: that's reducing the entire game down to a flowchart, rather than playing dynamically and predicting the other player's actions, like I said I prefer doing.
and B: running the optimal path IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID BAMBOOZLE ALLOWS YOU TO DO. If no matter what the survivor has done earlier in the game, the way you play a tile is the exact same because of a perk you're running, then that perk facilitates laziness.
So you probably think chasing people with Nurse is lazy too right?
No, because playing nurse requires you at least learn her blink distance and predict survivor pathing, akin to learning how to run tiles correctly. The equivalent would be if there was an addon that automatically turned you in the direction of the survivor when you release the blink, because then you wouldn't have to predict or learn at all.
"The reality is that you can't outsmart people who have "questionable vision" with a mind game. I can't explain that better or the mods will delete this post for advertising non allowed behavior. There are also quite a few people who play DBD with subtle cheats. You literally can't catch them at loops without bloodlust. They absolutely hate Bamboozle because they have no idea what to do when you block their favorite window."
This explanation reads like someone who blames every single time they lose a chase on stretched rez, subtle cheats or SWF. If you're going against so many that you have to run Bamboozle to counter them constantly, you're probably not going against any.
""Mind games with the opposing side are dynamic, and to me that's the most fun part of DBD"
I'm not going ti humor this argument as it reinforce the idea : chases are fun when I am in control and not fun when I have zero control."
I don't think you know what the word dynamic means.
We agree on one thing: A survivor running every tile in the same prescribed way is boring and lazy. Comp dropping every safe pallet and moving on to the next one sucks to go against and is boring. But I think killers doing the same thing is equally as boring. Bamboozling a window is just comp dropping every pallet but for the killer: you remove all chance for interesting play and turn the game into resource management. Chases should be dynamic (that means changing constantly), with reads and predictions and reactions. That's the way I play. Sometimes it backfires and I go down faster, but that's the risk reward. But by running bamboozle, you're forcing me to simply play the only way I can with the window blocked, which is just to loop and drop the pallet at the optimal time. Ironically, you're forcing the thing you hate most by running the perk.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130200#Comment_3130200
"It's just a lazy perk to slap on when you don't feel like learning how to correctly run tiles, and it reduces every single chase to just dropping pallets on a timer"
Bamboozle is a strong perk because it forces you to drop pallets on my terms not yours. You can force survivors to use the pallet on the first loop not the third or fourth. The alternative is that you force them to take a hit.
Bamboozle is a balanced perk because unlike Blood Favor you can't get rid of it.
Bamboozle is also a "bandaid" perk that is necessary when the game puts tiles together that otherwise would be a near infinite loop. Unfortunately it is also a perk that does almost nothing on some maps.
Bamboozle is one of the most powerful perks in the game for reducing chase times against extremely good survivors. Somewhere around 97% of survivors I go against have no idea how they are supposed to run tiles if I have bamboozle. I like those odds.
But what really makes Bamboozle good is when you pair it with Save the Best for Last on Demo or Nemesis. Greedy survivors who are really good at looping will often choose to give you a hit instead of "wasting" strong pallets. And if you have 8 stacks you can usually down them before they get to a new tile. Both of these killers can play the entire game and keep 8 stacks unless they are forced to hit the obsession while hooking.
This two perk strategy really makes people mad. And while this isn't the goal it goes to show that the combination is very effective. They will always say, "you have no skill" or "you play like a noob with beginner perks". What they mean is : I hate the way you play the game because it denies me the ability to run loops like I want to.
And that's exactly what you want as killer. You want to find an angle that makes you stronger and your opponent weaker. The best part about Bamboozle is that there is quite often nothing you can do about it even if you know I have it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130237#Comment_3130237
"My issue with Bamboozle is it just eliminates the window entirely, where mindgaming around windows is IMO one of the most interesting aspects of the chase."
In other words you only like leading the killer around in a chase when you are in control. No thank you. Mind games are generally a waste of time when you can take a perk like Bamboozle and force the outcome you want in a chase. Mind games work on people who aren't very good but they do not work on the very best survivors.
Ever since we had stretched resolution and other dubious methods of "game enhancements" I figured that on average the fastest way to down the very best survivors is to just follow their path exactly. Fast break the pallets, block the window and you will very quickly force a hit. If you watch streamers with 5-9k hours you will find that at about 50% of the time the mind game backfires.
What you can do in this situation is always follow them exactly until the last chase. They know exactly what you are going to do because you conditioned them that you will follow them exactly. And then finally at the end you can use a mind game. I find this is way more difficult to anticipate because they are so "sure" they know exactly what you will do.
I mean, you're just entirely proving my point. I never said Bamboozle wasn't good, I just said its lazy. Like you said, with Bamboozle, the most optimal way to play is just to follow the survivor's path exactly, just holding W without trying to outsmart or outplay the survivor: you just let the perk do that for you. It's effective, but immensely boring.
"They will always say, "you have no skill" or "you play like a noob with beginner perks". What they mean is : I hate the way you play the game because it denies me the ability to run loops like I want to."
I mean, no. Its exactly like you said: with bamboozle the most efficient way to chase is to follow the survivor exactly. You've equipped a perk that removes any possible variability from a chase, and then just follow them because they now have a single choice of where to go. I believe Bamboozle is a lazy perk because it removes skill from the equation.
"The best part about Bamboozle is that there is quite often nothing you can do about it even if you know I have it."
Again, you're reinforcing my point. Mind games with the opposing side are dynamic, and to me that's the most fun part of DBD, playing killer or survivor. I see how they chase/run around certain tiles, then adjust my pathing based on what I think they'll do next. Fake a double back on a TL wall, then double fake the next time so the survivor vaults into me. Or if I know a killer likes to cut off fast vaults into a long wall, I duck behind the corner, wait for him to turn in, then leave the loop. Its these cat-and-mouse actions and reactions that make this game so interesting and fun. But Bamboozle just entirely kills that. You reduce options down to one, and turn chases into a simple timer until you run out of resources. It's like the perk equivalent of bloodlusting a safe pallet, or of old Legion: at some point, regardless of skill, you go down.
"And that's exactly what you want as killer. You want to find an angle that makes you stronger and your opponent weaker."
No, when I play killer (and survivor) I want to have fun, and show that I've accrued enough skill in the game to outsmart people and do interesting things. Hell, my favourite killer and loadout is Huntress with four long distance aura reading perks for crossmap hatchets. If I only cared about winning, I'd be running agi startstruck nurse every game, but that's boring as hell and no challenge.
All of this comes back to my original point: when I go against a top tier killer who mindgames me well and gets downs on me by anticipating and outsmarting me, I feel satisfied because I know that at that moment, he was the better player. When I go down because someone bamboozled a window, I just feel like someone used a perk to avoid having to put the time in to learn to outsmart people, they just let the perk do it.
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@Dead_Harder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3130200#Comment_3130200
Oh wow you will love superior anatomy : )
In combo with Bamboozle for sure, but I would significantly prefer killer that vault windows to chase rather than to block. My issue with Bamboozle is it just eliminates the window entirely, where mindgaming around windows is IMO one of the most interesting aspects of the chase.
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I don't mind 99% of perks, especially now that Tinkerer got nerfed down to single use, eliminating the Ruin Undying Tinkerer return to gen Blights. Certain combos are annoying like Pain Res/Dead Man's, but those are more annoying because you're dependent on your teammates not being dumb and blocking every gen.
The only perk I ever really just groan when I see is Bamboozle. It's just a lazy perk to slap on when you don't feel like learning how to correctly run tiles, and it reduces every single chase to just dropping pallets on a timer because the interesting window vault plays get removed. Plus 99% of players that run it just hold W and bloodlust because you're prevented from using windows anyway.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3107329#Comment_3107329
Nerf? Depending on who you ask, I guess. It’s getting endurance tacked onto it, but also being lowered to only two protection hits. Sounds like the perk will be way more seen and useful now.
Not at all. The only way it can be used now is if you take a second protection hit and the killer switches targets to you, which is the objectively wrong play as you've just gotten a speed burst and the injured person you're protecting didn't. And in this case, you either have to continue chasing after the other survivor and be annoying so they hit you again, or else the killer will see your aura and realise that hey, maybe the obsession that suddenly has their aura shown after taking multiple protection hits has MoM, and now can't do gens. In which case you have to choose between being worthless to your team, or losing the MoM you worked for.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
With current Thana, if Legion injures the four of you, and you power through 5 gens injured, they'll have gotten 125 seconds from it. Granted, this is without other slowdowns but I want you to keep this in mind.
Pain Switch does two things. Regress and block.
The regression is around 13 seconds worth. So 13+30 means you'll have been given 43 seconds as killer from a single hook, more than two pre-nerf Pops. The kicker is that if you're Artist or a high-mobility killer such as Dredge or Range Nurse, you can block two gens. Maybe even 3. That ups from 43 to (collectively) either 73 or 103 seconds from a single hook.
So Thana, a perk that's really niche and only good on two killers? OP, it needs to be nerfed. This abomination of a combo that got removed because it was problematic? Bring it back!
Not only that, I'm fairly certain that the effect they brought back DMS/PR to prevent (20 seconds of Merciless Storm) can still happen with Jolt. So it was an entirely pointless thing to bring back.
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@Tsulan said:
Did i miss something? Did MoM suddenly rise to meta? With the amount of threads about the nerf, one could believe that this was the second most used perk next to DH.
It was a silly and fun perk that took a bunch of setup to possibly make big plays like saving in front of a facecamper or getting someone out of basement. I rarely got value from it, but when I did it allowed me to do ridiculous things as a reward for the work it took to activate it. With the new change, outside of body blocking twice rather than once (which is inconsistent as is because you lose collision after the first hit for like 5 seconds), it now cannot be used for...anything. Unhooking deactivates it. Healing a slug deactivates it. Healing yourself to get to full so you can take 2 hits deactivates it. And the killer is just going to ignore you anyway, because after you take a protection hit and the killer suddenly sees your aura, they know that as long as the aura is visible, you're useless to your team.
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@rydiafan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3106900#Comment_3106900
Hey, let's be fair to BHVR. They had to make some sort of change in response to the zero people anywhere who thought MoM needed to be changed in any way shape or form.
When you're getting that amount of literally no requests that you do anything at all, you just gotta do something.
True! And No Mither was getting lonely in the "perks that are an actual detriment to run" category, so BHVR needed to give it some company!
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So on the off chance some poor fool in my survivor game happens to be using this perk, and he takes a protection hit and I suddenly see his aura, why in the name of god would I ever hit him? He now has to choose between just doing nothing for the rest of the game, or sacrificing all the work that he's done, which *I will also immediately know because his aura will go away*
This perk is now literally worse than worthless! It requires you to take two hits to then signal to the killer that you're going to be useless for the forseeable future, and then informs the killer exactly when you've decided to no longer be useless but given up the endurance state.
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Wow, these changes are just...terrible. I know everyone memes about how out of touch the devs are, but I genuinely cannot understand how they though any of these changes were good. Nerfed Thano..except in the case of the two killers that people were complaining most about. They couldn't figure out how to stop a niche and incredibly rare perk interaction, so they just bring back one of the most busted pre-patch regression combos. MoM gets nerfed for some godforsaken reason. Why give killers a tell that a player has it, then make it be disabled if they do anything to progress the match? They've made an already niche and weak perk completely useless. Plus no MM incentive fix, no CoB/OC bug fix despite it being literally gamebreaking, no DS stun nerf revert (I play mostly killer and still think this change was completely unnecessary and unhealthy)
What are the devs doing??
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095950#Comment_3095950
They doubled your bp earned in a match
Play 3 matches
25k on avarage per match means 75k earned
Bbq earned 75k
You did a dailly for 30k
You completed 2 archive challenges one 25k and one 35k
In one of the matches you used a pudding for 25k
265k bp earned
28% was from bbq
Quite a chunk but nowhere near doubled
That's without rank rewards, any login bonusses and only a single offering. Survivors throwing in bps or cakes and the amount bbq does shrinks very fast. The higher end of archives give 50-60k
A lot of the bp we earn is outside of the match. Bbq didn't affect that
There is a dailly login bonus going on now for 50k. That's 2 avarage matches worth of bbq vallue jusy for login in
Alright, but play 3 more matches, and in each one you get 4 stacks of bbq and score 25k points.
From the game: 75k
BBQ: 75k
Your daily for the day is gone because you already redeemed it, 0.
The next challenge on the tome is 35k, but it requires you to hook 10 unique survivors, so you only get it in your third match. 35k
You ran out of puddings, but a survivor burned a flan in your second game so you still get 25k bonus from that. 25k
So after 6 games, out of 210k, bbq pulled in 75k, or about 35%. Run out of tome challenges? Now its 42%. Various rewards for things like tomes or dailies are great, but they're finite. BBQ was every single game pulling value.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095930#Comment_3095930
If you go through the numbers there is not that much lower bp gain then before
The stack perks only affected bp gained in a match. Daillies, archives, login bonuses, rank rewards, offerings, etc... weren't affected by it.
Double true for survivors as getting max stacks of wglf was a lot harder then bbq
Especially with how they increased the cap per catogory to 10k it really isn't that big a difference anymore.
The community in general always overvaluated the stack perks. They did not do as much as people thought they did
I don't know about you, but I actually got most of my bloodpoints from playing the game, rather than the rewards. A single 30k daily or 50k login reward were both still less than my average single game with BBQ, not even counting BP offerings.
And as I said in a prior post, the cap increase to 10k is only a 25% total increase, and it didn't increase any action point rewards (except survival), so the only way you get a benefit from it is if you go over 8k, or else it is exactly the same as before. And if you do fully get the 25% total point increase, you would have gotten 4 stacks of BBQ guaranteed (I still don't even think with 12 hooks you can get 10k anyway), and almost definitely would have gotten at least the 2 stacks of WGLF needed to match the point increase with a BP offering by maxing altruism.
And even outside of that, I don't quite understand the point you're making. Dailies and login rewards are exactly the same as they were, so you're still just net losing the BP bonus from perks. That's just a significant net loss in BP gain if you used the perks, no matter how you slice it.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3093722#Comment_3093722
That doesn't excuse bad sportsmanship or being a jerk for no reason.
Oh, I agree. If you BM in games for no reason, you're a shitter. But people act like clicking a flashlight or teabagging is the single greatest affront to humanity, rather than just some keyboard warrior trying to get a rise out of you.
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@ion_eyes said:
Now that the cost to prestige is down from 50k to 20k, I wonder how that will affect the overall numbers?
It increases the best case percentage reduction from 45 to 46%. BHVR has saved the day once again.
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@MrMori said:
If you want to know why you're wrong, here's why.
First, stop overcomplicating 1-50 and measure average BP cost instead. I tracked BP costs on 10 survivors or so from level 1 to level 50, and the cost averaged 1400k. But this was with neglecting perks to rush them to P3. With perks, I've found it costs around 1450k to go from L1 to L50 while getting all perks.
Like you showed, it costs 51k avg for a L50 web. That's 25500 BP per perk tier.
To get all perks on one character, it costs 1450 to get to 50, then you still need 229 perk tiers, which is 25500*229. This is being generous since the last few levels cost a lot. About 7.29m.
With the new system, your grind ends omce you have P3 on every killer. Obviously, you should prestige every killer to P1, to ensure you don't lose perk tiers while leveling.
But the absolute worst case is P3 all killers. And that will cost 1521k pet killer, since you now have to go through a bloodweb at 50 + 20k for a prestige. 4.56m per killer.
That's 38% less BP as it stands now. But the new system will become better the more characters are added. How about 32 killers instead of 28?
Ca 8.2m per killer with the old system. 4.56m with the new.
36 killers? 9.12m old, 4.56 new.
Now we will get increased BP caps and role bonuses as well. This also means that BP offerings now give back more than before, especially if you run BP boosting perks to max out categories. Notable exceptions are sacrifice and brutality, most killers can't max these. But plenty of killers can easily max chase and deviousness with distressing + beast of prey.
For survivor, WGLF stacks are far, far less reliable than role queue bonuses, and I'd bet money on that the average survivor will make quite a lot more BP after the update.
...what? The reason I'm wrong is because I "overcomplicated" levels by breaking them down into groups to give more accuracy, rather than just assigning one average value to the whole thing? So me using more detail makes it incorrect?
And looking thru your math, it looks like you end up agreeing with me, at least in the general sense, on the numbers for right now. 38% grind reduction is ballpark what I got. Yes, it gets better as time goes on, I understand that aspect. But, to be honest, I really don't care that much if the grind goes all the way up to a 50% reduction by 2028, because it's being touted as a grind reduction right now. 36 killers is 2 full years from now, if they even stick to their current 4 a year schedule. Anyone who cares about a grind reduction right now will have either stopped caring about it, or have long since moved on.
"Now we will get increased BP caps and role bonuses as well. This also means that BP offerings now give back more than before, especially if you run BP boosting perks to max out categories. Notable exceptions are sacrifice and brutality, most killers can't max these. But plenty of killers can easily max chase and deviousness with distressing + beast of prey.
For survivor, WGLF stacks are far, far less reliable than role queue bonuses, and I'd bet money on that the average survivor will make quite a lot more BP after the update."
The increased cap only goes up to 10k, and point values for actions weren't changed (outside of escaping, which was increased to 7k in the bugfix patch). So the only way you see a benefit from the prior system is if you go over 8k, as otherwise the amount you get is the exact same as the prior patch. And the most increase you can get is 25%, if you max out the category. So in the best case scenario, your raw game total post patch would come out to if you had gotten a single stack of BBQ/WGLF. If you include double BP offerings in the mix, that bumps it to two stacks. But if you're getting a perfect 40k game, its impossible to not have 4 stacks of BBQ, and 95% of the time you're gonna have at least 2 stacks of WGLF to max out altruism. So it ends up being a moot point anyway: any benefit you get from the higher BP cap, in the same game in the old system, you would have gotten significantly more reward anyway.
And role queue will be nice, but I think it is far far less reliable than you expect it is. The devs have stated multiple times that the 100% role bonus will not be the norm, and will only be that high when the queues are drastically imbalanced. I fully expect the bonuses to be more in the range of 25-50% which, while nice, does not make up the difference.
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Gotta love how every nurse I've gone against tonight has switched to the bugged gen regression combo, because of course they are lol
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3093678#Comment_3093678
+ teabagging behind the pallet or clicky, clicky? Yes, absolutely
Man, some of y'all are so fragile. "A survivor pressed control or M2, I'm suddenly blinded with rage!!!!1!1!!" It's BM in a video game, and comparatively tame at that. If any of you played an FPS, your heads would explode.
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For me it was the sound, it actually gave me a migraine so I had to quit afterwards. The high pitched metal-on-metal sound is awful.
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When I can't even type phrases with the word "kill" in it...in a game where my objective is frequently stated to be to kill other players, there's a bloody problem. Why do the devs think that throwing a human being on a meathook and listening to them scream in agony is totes cool, but saying the word "dick" in the endgame chat will cause irreversible trauma?
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Also, applying coefficients requires the devs to literally quantify exactly how strong or weak a killer is. How do you do that? For a killer like Nurse, who has the potential to be the strongest in the game but performs the worst of any killer on average, do you make her coefficient high or low? Modifying anything per killer opens up so many doors that don't need to be opened.
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@RavenBirb said:
a survivor can still click and win the match and there's nothing the killer can do if they don't make it there first or at the same time. I really don't understand why the grab feature was taken out, I've been saying over and over simple changes could change this game for the better but it never happens.
You move at 115% of the movespeed they do and can move freely while they often have to stealth. The odds are massively stacked in your favour in a 1v1 scenario, which you can also prevent completely by slugging if you really really are offended by the thought of anyone escaping. I don't know how much more counterplay they could feasibly add.
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@Gorgonia said:
The only thing I can say is... I35 has the incorrect range in the sum :P
#########.
I'm honestly pleased someone took the time to download and check my work, so props :P
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038044#Comment_3038044
Calculate it as 1.5 million points for each Prestige and 50k for each bloodweb at level 50.
Do you not understand with the old system you have to do level 50 bloodwebs regardless of Prestige and with the new system you don't?
Alright mate, lets do it your way.
Rather than calculating the number of BP used per level set, we can just use your 1.5mil per prestige number. It's low by 100k according to my estimates, heavily skewing the results in favour of the new system, but sure.
Even with your rough-estimated system skewing the results, in the best case scenario possible, you're still at only 50%.
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@PhilipOmnis said:
As pointed out, the smaller bloodwebs have lower quality add-ons along while only being able to get one perk per bloodweb. It's not about how quickly the bloodwebs are completed so much as how much value you're getting per web (and therefore your BP). And if the value of each web stays approximately the same, then cutting the BP gains by nerfing BBQ/WGLF is a net loss. As for hiding it behind reducing "the perk grind", I feel like that's not inherently the only problem and actually makes the grind harder in many other instances.
As you mentioned, the crux of the issue is that lower tiers are cheaper, but they offset the reduced cost by having only 1 perk in each. In order to be saving significant amounts of BP, tiers below 40 would have to average to less than half the cost of ones above, which they just do not.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038025#Comment_3038025
Peanuts explained it pretty well also, if you don't understand and wish to keep spreading misinformation so be it.
Peanits said something that I then immediately disproved. If you see a flaw in how I calculated cost based on level tier, I look forward to hearing your correct version.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3037696#Comment_3037696
Current system:
1.5 Million bloodpoints to Prestige
50k per Bloodweb at Level 50
291 total perk levels
Keep all Killers at Level 50 (You do not prestige because you lose perks) - 62 total perk levels
28 Killers * 1.5 million = 42 million
Perk cost at level 50 = 25k
229 perk levels * 25k = 5,725,000
5,725,000 * 28 Killers = 160,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks No prestige = 202,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks Prestige 3 = 328,300,000
New System:
Prestige 3 Killer = 4.65 million
4.65 million * 28 Killers = 130,200,00
Reduction of 35% if you kept all Killers at level 50 comparing the old system to the new system.
Reduction of 60% if you P3 all Killers comparing the old system to the new system.
This is even WITHOUT min/maxing (You would have all perks before Prestige 3 the more Killers you have P3'd).
If you take into account earning bloody cosmetics (which is the only real reason to get to P3 currently), then you have to compare to getting all bloody cosmetics on the new system, which is as expensive as it seems:
It costs more in the new system to get all perks and bloody cosmetics than it did in the old.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3037696#Comment_3037696
Current system:
1.5 Million bloodpoints to Prestige
50k per Bloodweb at Level 50
291 total perk levels
Keep all Killers at Level 50 (You do not prestige because you lose perks) - 62 total perk levels
28 Killers * 1.5 million = 42 million
Perk cost at level 50 = 25k
229 perk levels * 25k = 5,725,000
5,725,000 * 28 Killers = 160,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks No prestige = 202,300,000
Total cost having all Killers at Level 50 all perks Prestige 3 = 328,300,000
New System:
Prestige 3 Killer = 4.65 million
4.65 million * 28 Killers = 130,200,00
Reduction of 35% if you kept all Killers at level 50 comparing the old system to the new system.
Reduction of 60% if you P3 all Killers comparing the old system to the new system.
This is even WITHOUT min/maxing (You would have all perks before Prestige 3 the more Killers you have P3'd).
So...you're agreeing with me. A 30% reduction if you're just going for perks. There's no reason to P3 currently unless you're a completionist or going for bloody outfits. And if you are calcing in going for the cosmetics, then it isn't fair to not do the same for the new system, where you have to go to P6 to get the full outfit, so every single killer would have to be P6.
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For the record, this is how low the early levels have to be to get to the 75% value:
This is with every level below 50 having a price of 10k BP, or 2 browns and a yellow. So unless there are some radical bloodweb changes coming that weren't in the patch notes, I have a hard time believing the 75% figure.
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@Peanits said:
I hate to sneak in again and ruin all your hard work (huge kudos for going through the effort of putting together the spreadsheet!), but there's another big oversight here: Prestiging resets you to level 1, meaning you get the super tiny levels again. The overall bloodpoints required ends up being ~75% lower, not the number of levels. You spend way more BP per level on the old system by repeating the huge level 50 bloodwebs.
*sniff sniff*
What's that I smell?
ANOTHER SPREADSHEET.
This time I mapped out the levels required to be spent of my optimal pattern, the 14 P3 then effective leveling after, and quantified the number of levels in each tier. I then hopped on over to an older Zubat VOD, and calculated the average cost of a bloodweb in each tier from when he was leveling his Dredge for the first time. This was from P0, so the BP costs were as low as possible due to the rarity increase from later prestiges not kicking in yet. I then quantified each tier in terms of a percentage of a "full" tier, a 50+ bloodweb. But I also added the cost of prestiging each killer under the new system, as it conveniently came out to just about what a 50+ tier bloodweb cost.
And still, after alllllllll of that, the percent savings still doesn't even eclipse 50%. In the best case leveling scenario, which literally required an engineer 2 hours of spreadsheeting to figure out, and even with the advantage of the average cost for each bloodweb tier being from P0 where it will be cheaper, it still doesn't hit 50%. Still doesn't justify the loss of my Chili.
Spreadsheets don't lie, @Peanits. Make the BP bonus basekit, or the spreadsheets will be disappointed.
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@Tizzle said:
You need to calculate this again using perk levels instead of just simply levels.
For reference:
291 total Killer perk levels
1st Killer P1 - 62 perk levels
2nd Killer P1 - 65 perk levels
3rd Killer P1 - 68 perk levels
28th Killer P1 - 143 perk levels
Now go back and reset all Killers from 1-27 and give them 143 perk levels.
You are saving 1218 perk levels simply by getting Prestige 1 on each Killer.
Now think about this if you wanted all perks on all Killers in the old system but left them at Level 50 (because you lose perks on Prestige)
Those 1218 perks you just saved in the new system -- Guess what they each cost 25k in the old system at level 50.
Thats 30,450,000 bloodpoints.
Your math isn't right.
Thats...literally exactly what I did. The whole point of the spreadsheet is determining the balance point from where the required levels to get all perks including teachables from prior P3 killers drops under the number of levels required to get that killer to P3 to unlock their perks for subsequent killers. That's why the number of killers leveled to P3 isn't 28, but 13, and every killer thereafter has their level requirement step down incrementally. From then on out, the BP you save by unlocking via bloodweb exceeds that of unlocking via P3. This is also why you get to all perks in only 56 levels past P1 on the most optimal level: you've already earned all of the rest via prestiging. All of this is laid out in the full spreadsheet I attached.
If you're gonna say my math is wrong, at least actually look at the spreadsheet, I even labeled it ;_;
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@Akumakaji said:
Thanks a lot for your hard work, thats much appreciated. Still, I think the new system is vastly superior to the old. In the old you had very little control over what you actually got and the few characters that I prestiged were quite the gambles. When I P3ed my Pyramid Head I had comparable builds during P0-P2 .. but P3 was an absolute slog and I only got my favorite perks back once I hit P3+10.
With the old system you only needed to reach lvl 40 with a character that you didn't want to invest too much into, but now with the new system you actually get a lot of control over your perk loadouts, just getting a character with important perks will unlock these for everyone else and this feels so much more meaningful then just unlocking them on other characters bloodwebs.
Also, while I am as much on the fence as everyone else about the needless 50k bloodpoint tax to prestige, now prestiging doesn't come with the big bad disadvantage of old, ie you dont lose EVERYTHING! Before the decision to prestige a character wasn't taken lightly and usually involved a marathon of using all the good add-ons, survivor puddings/escape cakes and other consumables. Heck, I always wanted to prestige my Ace because he is a cool guy, but from his native perks he got sooooo many purple and iridescent items that I would have never prestiged him.
True, but desirable add-ons and offerings will be much harder to come by, based on receiving fewer BP from perks
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Hard disagree with that Demogorgon build.
First Save The Best For Last never has been and never will be meta on Demogorgon, not as long as Black Heart exists.
Second of all, Lethal Pursuer with Enduring is better than Endfury.
Lethal Pursuer will synergize extremely well with Demogorgon's best Add-On, that being Leprose Lichen, increasing its effect by 2 seconds (from 3 up to 5 seconds). That's extremely powerful, better than any other Aura reading Perk in the game.
Deadlock, I'm iffy on. It can work, but it depends on how you like to play Demogorgon. As someone who enjoys controlling the Map more than chases (as Shred is already an amazing chase tool), Call Of Brine or Overcharge would be better, or maybe both if you don't want to use Enduring.
A "meta" Demogorgon build would probably be something along the lines of:
Lethal Pursuer/Call Of Brine/Overcharge (or Pop Goes The Weasel)/Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
With all due respect, Demo is literally a STBFL machine, with Nemesis being the only other killer that even comes close to the value he gets out of it. 8 stacks of STBFL can turn a game moreso than any perk that isn't DHope IMO, as Demo can use it to get downs stupid fast. Black Heart doesn't invalidate this, it just means you can keep stacks by shredding the obsession even easier. And if the successful shred attack cooldown doesn't decrease to 2.7 seconds like basic attacks do (I assume it will, but if not) then Black Heart is even less impactful.
If I had to choose a "meta" Demo build, at the moment it would be BBQ Pain Resonance Dead Man's Switch STBFL, but on the new patch it would likely be something like STBFL, Jolt, Scourge:PR and some fourth perk of your choice (I'd prob still go BBQ cuz knowing which portal to tp to after a hook is nice). Or if you are a Barb's Glasses enthusiast, something like STBFL, Jolt and EndFury would also be good.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3036382#Comment_3036382
The math says it'll be a reduction.
If you use BBQ every game like I did, it unfortunately is not.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3036394#Comment_3036394
They didn't say it's a 75% reduction to the entire grind. They said it's a 75% reduction in the time it takes to unlock everything on everyone when a new chapter comes out. The math checks out.
It's not as relevant now but I still only have tier 3 BBQ on a couple killers. Now, if there's a perk I want on everyone, it's really easy to set that goal and actually see progress towards it.
It's an interesting case, as in a vacuum that one scenario is a decent savings: the old system required you to get the new killer to level 40, then unlock their perks on other killers, which would take 5 bloodwebs assuming good RNG:
1 1 0
2 1 1
2 2 2
3 3 2
3 3 3
then getting all perks on the new killer, which is 125 levels, for a final total of 305 (5*28+40+125)
The new system, at its most efficient, is the same as the all perks one: Level new killer to 51, then get their perks P3 on the other killers, which takes only 4 bloodwebs:
2 2 1
3 2 2
3 3 2
3 3 3
Because when there are only 2 perks left, you can only get one, which requires 2 bloodwebs (though all of this is assuming you're between levels 40 and 50, the number of levels required doubles if you're not, but they're arguably cheaper levels). So the new system totals to 162, or a little over half. Still not 75%, but still quite a bit of savings.
An interesting aspect is that, in order to do this with the next killer that comes out, you either have to P3 the prior killer to not have to worry about it, which adds 100 levels flat, or keep the prior killer at P1 and buy their T2 and 3 on the new killer. This actually isn't a problem for 2 killers after the original one left at P1, as you'll unlock all perk tiers of the P1 killers in the time it takes to get to P1 on the new one: 60 perk tiers between 1 and 50, with 39 tiers of non-teachables to unlock, and 6 tiers of their own perks. This leaves 15 perk tiers unused on the road to P1, which on the second and third killer would be used to buy the 6 tiers of all non-P3'd killers. But from there on out, you start having to invest more in the new killer to unlock everything. 3 extra levels on the forth killer, 9 on the fifth, 15 on the sixth, etc.
Does this matter at all?
Not even slightly. If you write out the Sigma calculations for the amount of levels required for both the old system with the ever increasing number of teachables jacking up the level requirements and the new system with this level increase every time, you compare:
Σ(9.5n+267) from 1 to 23
to
Σ(10n+191) from 5 to 23 + 686
where N is the number of new killers added past 28. This converges at some value around 310 new killers, but at any point past 23 you're just leveling new killers to p3 under the new system so the value never increases.
I don't know why I did this. Someone help me.
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@Peanits said:
There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
The hybrid system does end up making things more efficient, I'll concede. But it still doesn't feel like nearly as much of a grind reduction to justify the loss of the BP modifying perks, especially when considering the related effect of making add-ons and offerings effectively more expensive.
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@Mozic said:
There's a critical error in your presentation here - while all perks on one killer is a pretty comparable figure between the current system and the upcoming changed system - all perks all killers with the current system, using your math, is 29,532 webs. The grind is functionally isolated to each killer because the prestiges do not advance your progress with each killer.
When you actually factor for the amount of bloodwebs you no longer need to clear because you have all teachables at tier 3 automatically, thanks to a full cast of P3 killers, the picture looks much fairer. You should probably present that as your side-by-side.
Where on earth are you getting 29k webs? To get all perks on all killers is 40*28+126*28, which is 4648 levels.
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@Jarky said:
Whilst I absolutely agree with removing the BP bonuses from perks, and am hugely appreciative of the shrine of secrets and prestige changes that absolutely reduce the grind, I still think those bonuses could have been moved to potentially game conditions that encourage team work from the survivors side and not tunnelling/camping to the killers side to promote healthier gameplay at base kit.
For example: Perhaps if the killer hooks all 4 survivors once per trial, they get that double bloodpoint bonus at a base kit without needing to run a perk.
For survivors - I'm unsure what it would be (and appreciate it's much harder to create one so you don't promote griefing your team-mates), but I think some form of team condition that the survivor side could achieve would unlock a double bp bonus for them, too.
How about making it so the number of stacks you get is your highest chain of unique survivors hooked, capped at 4 like BBQ. So if you tunnel, you'll never get more than 2 stacks, but if you spread hooks you can easily get 4.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3014545#Comment_3014545
We're very aware of that (we actually mentioned exactly that in the dev update). However, we do not want people to always have one perk slot locked in just for bloodpoints. Your perk choices should be the perks you want to run, not the ones that make the grind manageable. There was very little reason to run other aura reading perks when this one gave both information and doubled your bloodpoints.
We made sure to pair this with a huge grind reduction and new ways to earn bloodpoints to compensate, but this is ultimately a step that we need to take.
But bloodwebs are for more than just earning perks. Add-ons/items, map offerings, and BP offerings are all getting a pretty hard nerf by effectively being twice as expensive as they were beforehand. Running a purple and yellow add-on now eliminates over a third of your earned BP, and that's with a perfect game. Not to mention all the junk bloodweb items you have to chew thru to get the chance at the add-ons you actually want.
Perhaps in addition to the grind reduction, the wreath/flower offerings can be retired as well. They replace useful offerings or addons, and best case scenario barely make up the BP that was spent on them. Or just make the BP gains from BBQ and WGLF basekit.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2968333#Comment_2968333
Yeah, this sounds like it would be a relatively healthy change both ways... which is why it would literally never happen.
They did try it, a couple years ago. And Huntress was literally unplayable for a month until they reverted it. Survivor hitboxes are so bad and BHVR's netcode was so jank that hatchets just...stopped working. Survivors would be animation locked and hatchets would just fly thru people.
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@SkeletalElite said:
I just wish the survivor on the ground had a way to make themselves die faster so they wouldn't have to sit around waiting for 3.5 minutes while the killer scours the map for someone crouching a bush and waiting for hatch spawn.
This is my issue: If you do it when you don't know where the fourth is, its just a waste of time for everyone involved, for literally 0 reason outside of getting adepts. Pips are meaningless now, and you will literally get more points hooking me, playing the rest of the game out regardless of if the 4th gets hatch, and queueing into your next one than you ever would waiting the 4 minutes for me to bleed out.
If they see the other survivor, or know exactly where they are, then I don't care at all, go ham
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Only change that Nurse needs is to make her swing out of blink a special attack, so it can't one shot exposed players. Blight's swing out of rush is considered special, yet Nurse's isn't. And she makes perks like MYC, Starstruck, or DHope just really dumb.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
This is the thing with stuff that affects Movement Speed. You cannot ######### around with that too much, because it becomes imbalanced. So something which affects Movement Speed (and is not NOED, lel) has to be weak.
So, yeah. You get 2%. The Perk is crap. It should have never been created because it will always be a weak Perk and cannot be made a strong Perk by any means. Terrible gamedesign.
And to be honest, if someone like myself can get to this conclusion within minutes, I guess the designer of this Perk did not think about it at all.
But that's exactly why it's actually a deceptively strong perk. Like you said, very few things affect how fast players move, so adding a 2% movement boost to speeds that are so ingrained in killers and survivors playstyle can really screw with people. Lunges at shack window suddenly miss that would have hit before. Survivors make pallets that they had no right making. I mean hell, look how much people salivate over spine chill/resilience, and that saves only .075 seconds a vault.
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Survivors also have narrower models than killers, so they can hug corners tighter allowing them to loop obstacles faster. In a game of millimetres like DBD, 2% can make an insane difference, especially against 110% killers. Plus it stacks with other perks.
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Potentially silly question, but do you know that the surviviors didn't burn hatch offerings? I've had plenty of instant escapes only to look at the postgame screen and realise I totally missed the hatch offering they burned.
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No.
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My opinion is that Lethal Pursuer should be made basekit, if BT is. Also eliminates the whole "gen popped before the killer gets there" thing, and gives killers a significant source of info off the bat.
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Unfortunately, I think the Boil Over squads forced their hand. Any hooks at the bottom of the staircase could be saboed well before the killer got there, basically rendering the fix pointless. Perhaps with the update nerfing Boil Over they can move it down.
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@DwightFairfield said:
i think boons on their own are fine, i think its COH that gives boons the reputation they have.
and besides, if boons were removed from the game, it wouldn't really change anything, survivors aren't going to stop being powerful by removing boons, and some survivors don't use boons at all because the other 20 meta perks they have work just fine for them.
This is basically how I feel. Shadowstep is super annoying in certain buildings, but outside of those I think the concept isn't terrible. The problem is that CoH is so tremendously overtuned that it has tainted the entire concept. Having a very large area on the map that is permanently indicated to survivors where they can heal alone in 16 seconds (soon to be 18.5, huuuuge changes lol) is insanely strong, and dumpsters a bunch of killers, perks and playstyles that rely on survivors staying injured. If CoH kept the 100% healing bonus to others, but removed the ability to self heal, I would have 0 problems with it or boons as a whole.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
I'm unclear what drops Kazan down. With CoH you are getting 40% of your power every hit AND with CoH all the blood is getting grouped into one area. So now you are losing vastly less blood orbs from them simply timing out, because you never find them in whatever random spot the survivor decided to heal. If everyone is full health, that just means you get more demon strike value. I would say, at worst, you need to manage your blood orbs and power a little more intuitively, but other than that hes really not that much worse off.
I could not disagree more. Oni without Blood Fury is a powerless M1 killer, to compensate for how strong Blood Fury is. In the past, a good Oni could spread pressure and keep everyone injured, constantly dropping blood so that he can get Blood Fury whenever he wants. You'd take one or two powerless chases at the start of the match in order to injure two people, then use your power to down a healthy survivor. The first person you injure would be forced to go search for a teammate to heal them up, dropping enough blood to sustain power usage, leading to more downs and more injured people if slugs were picked up.
But then CoH was released. Survivors no longer need to search for a person to heal, they just run to the boon and heal in 16 seconds max. No one stays injured, because there's practically a bloody PokeCenter on any map with a boon user. And even if you find where the survivors are healing within the boon, they heal so quickly that the blood on the ground ends up being a trivial amount. A 16 second heal drops 4x 2 blood orbs, for only 20% of your power. So if you're not getting your power from blood on the ground, you're spending a huge chunk of the game chasing as a powerless M1 killer, just desperately trying to get hits to fill your meter.
I mained Oni since his release, and absolutely loved how he played. The CoH was released, and playing him is an exercise in futility.
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@feng_min_main2003 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2748882#Comment_2748882
It's being removed in the next update lol, they're making the maps smaller
Did you, by chance, watch a Scott Jund video recently?