JustAnotherNewbie
JustAnotherNewbie
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543246#Comment_3543246
no, i didn't. if you want points, you can hide all you want but now the killer has a choice: they can be petty and look around the map to find you -which is fine since you also don't value your time apparently in that scenario- or they don't care and close the hatch and play gates. BUT they have the choice here and not some rng garbage dictate them they are completely losing their 4k and anything that kill would bring.
But we accept bullshit rng crap like gates spawning too close. Why?
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543066#Comment_3543066
putting the match... to an end? aren't people complaining about sm because she takes the game hostage?
Why should I go for the hatch and not ask the killer to kill me? Your point makes no sense. Both end the game and according to your proposal I get nothing for hatch, I have no incentive to try to find hatch. All I can do is hide and wait for killer to close hatch and hope I get out of the gate. And if gates spawn next to each other, it's somehow more fair than hatch??? So killer can now patrol both gates lol. And if I want points I'll need to avoid hatch and go for gate and if killer wants the 4k he'll just not close hatch. I think you just created a new problem there.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543039#Comment_3543039
putting matches to an end. this is its point.
That is the point for killer, but what is the point for survivor?
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542972#Comment_3542972
survivors have an objective to do in order to escape: do gens and then gates. a game mechanic that only exists to cover core game flaws doesn't need to award absurd amounts of bloodpoints, again, causing selfish playstyles to develop.
hatch wouldn't be an issue if it didn't give any bp, and if survivor escaped that way killer still got their score events as if they killed the last survivor, and their achievements/challenges. in other words, if hatch just and only fulfilled its purpose to exist: preventing "never ending" games.
Ok so you basically want the hatch to count as 1k shile you don't even to hook someone? Excuse me? wut? And also not give BP? What will the point of hatch be then? Decorative?
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540289#Comment_3540289
it's still a win for the Killer by pretty much any metric
except for bloodpoints, adepts and challenges requiring a 4k and probably emblems too. you are denied 2,5k deviousness points and your sacrifice points.
and it awards survivors with a whole 9,5k points (half of an average survivor match) potentially 10k if they are the obsession, without any effort from their end; which leads to dedicated builds and useless teammates.
Except for the survivors who play scummy and get everyone killed for the hatch, isn't in an effort to stay alive? I did not know that hatch only spawns when survivors roll over. I guess when survivors are saving teammates and cranking gens, getting in chases atc. the hatch doesn't spawn at all.
You'd imagine killers claiming "just cause you did 5 gens doesn't mean the game ended and you don't deserve an escape!!!" would probably also understand that just cause you did well, you don't deserve a guaranteed 4k.
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@jesterkind said:
I've never understood how some folks can take a generally reasonable statement - "You'll have more fun in an online game if you care more about the gameplay itself than winning or losing" - and twist it to somehow be a criticism of the game they're talking about. It's not even unique to DBD, I've seen it elsewhere too.
The first paragraph here is true, and will remain true regardless of anything that changes in the game. It's just a good mindset to have in any online game, unless you're really serious about getting as good at it as possible.
Just goes to show DBD players have never played a competitive game.
It's common knowledge caring about rank and wins in any game with a ladder will stress people out.
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@pizzavessel15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542187#Comment_3542187
bhvr has gotten too predictable with survivor. when a killer is weak but fun for survivors bhvr doesnt really bother with them that much. but when its fun for killer all hell breaks loose and bhvr will nerf the killer until its actually either fun for survivor or unfun for killer to prevent the killer from being played much against the survivors. if survivors complain about something it will be nerfed sooner or later.
I wish I was living your reality where Blight, Nurse and Wesker had gotten nerfed? When does it happen again? 2100?
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542876#Comment_3542876
I disagree as killer there was too much clutter in the way and it felt like you would get stuck on everything and you would lose so much distance on the map.
Clutter has become a thing on most maps and I don't think you'll see less of it. Seems like a deliberate choice. I also get stuck on it as a survivor.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542679#Comment_3542679
Yes, when the game was objectively worse in terms of visual accuracy and visual feedback...
Thats when the survivor mains were happy with the game.
Wait a minute...you made an us vs them post? You're not a very good example yourself.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542615#Comment_3542615
Thats a textbook us v them post, please don't do that.
Funny you should say that about my post but not the thread title.
It's common knowledge bad ping favors killers more than survivors, there's no us vs them right there. Killer's ping affects every survivor's game quality. I probably interact more with the killer than certain survivors on my team, ofc I'm gonna notice the killer's ping more than my teammate's duh.
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Why do you need the last survivor again? Hatch is the least of your RNG concerns when maps with RNG pallets and tiles exist.
It honestly comes out a little entitled of you. If you care that much about the 4k then slug, I don't understand why you need a free kill. You have way more control for when hatch opens than the survivors do. You also get favored when doors spawn close to each other, but I don't see killer mains complain about that situation ever.
With your proposal you just made redundant all those hatch aura perks. Also what stops you from slugging in that case as well to deny hatch and door. Only the goodwill of the killer stops that,
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542576#Comment_3542576
As I've said before, you can't balance the game based on people playing on sub-optimal gear.
50-100 ping is a fairly average latency to have, and that "reduces" your reaction window by 25-50 microseconds... from a 0.600 ms window down to 0.597.5 or 0.595 , thats not much of an impact at all.
If your ping reaches the 200ms mark you should consider a new ISP, or give up gaming as a whole since thats in the unplayable range.
I guess this goes for those killers then? Since they're the most common offender I see who benefit from it. My ping is decent enough, but I cannot control what ping killers plays on or if they're using VPN and bad killer ping is pretty common.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542344#Comment_3542344
Yes... its common knowledge that consoles have some input delay, however balancing the game around people playing on sub-optimal gear is not the way to go.
You'd end up with an attack windup so long it would look like the killer has to ask permission to the survivor to strike him and that would be ludicrous.
0.6s is more than double the average human reaction time and allows you to dodge anywhere between 1.4 to 2 meters depending on how good your reactions are.
The game cannot be balanced around people who have under 50ms either because that is not always the average game. So if BHVR is collecting stats etc the majority of games could very well be on higher ping and that higher ping will give different stats than a game with good ping, I would assume.
Also there's many killers who play on VPN which is pretty widespread, or killers with bad ping forcing everyone else to play a predictive game than a reactive one. And I'm gonna assume like many things in this game that can benefit the killer old Xeno attack greatly benefited those kinds of players. Now I don't know how many killers would intentionally play on vpn to get those kinds of effects cause it's hard to keep track off, but that would make Xeno more exploitable than other killers.
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This perk does many things at once. I personally think it encourages every unfun strategy there is out there and also rewards you for it by not wasting your time or extra perkslots.
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@sonata93 said:
I’ll echo what’s already been said in this discussion; it’s not an “anti-camp” mechanic, more of an anti face-camp mechanic.
Proxy camping/defending a hook when survivors are swarming it is a perfectly viable and respectful play style.
The purpose of this mechanic is to dissuade a Bubba from mindlessly facecamping you to death in the basement or when killers stare right at you and hit you in hook because you looped them too long or got some flashlight saves.
I don't think this will deter Bubba face-campers. They'll just stand more far.
This change is to punish newbie/bad killers who have to rely on face-camping and still win games although it's a very low skill strategy as well as highly intuitive (even if the killer had played only like 5 hours many of them have the tendency to camp even if it's not someone that is taught by the game).
On the other hand countering camping as well as saving your teammate is not something intuitive for survivors. They don't know they should be pumping out gens and newbie survivors are extremely scared of killer. Even when they killer is not a one shot killer they don't know that facecamping can be dealt with by having two survivors rescue, one to rescue and the other to body block.
That's how I understand face-camping. On top of that they don't want the game to be uninteractive, and camping kinda makes the game uninteractive for the killer and the hooked survivors. They want the meta to be about interaction and chases and excitement, especially after coming out from such a boring 3-4 gen regression meta when Eruption was king. it's also why screaming and aura reading have been getting added, to deny uninteractive stealth plays from survivors and Spinechill (which was a free perk that was used by new players primarily who were too scared of the killer) got gutted without a compansatory re-work or something.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542145#Comment_3542145
you "can't react in 0.6s" even though DH on reaction to M1 was and still is a thing, the average human takes 0.25 for visual and 0.17 for audio to react to an input.
If this is your way of telling us you're 2-3X slower than the average person,then its a very weird flex but ok.
You cannot react to M1 with DH, I used to run DH pre-nerf and even when I pressed it on time it never came out. It's very latency dependant, on top of that playing with a controller as opposed to a keyboard adds more latency to moves. I've tried both and hitting skillchecks for gens is faster on keyboard than controller and a large part of the playerbase is actually on console and ping can vary wildly.
On top of that you forget the killer's ping which has graced us with so many moments of getting hit after you made window or dropped pallet.
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This perk is super versatile and efficient. It's even a better Hex: face The Darkness. I wonder if you can do cheesy hex strategies with it and make it hard for survivors to remove your hexes since you keep interrupting them.
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@Xendritch said:
I'm fine if they thought 2.0 was too much but I'm less fine we didn't test 1.5/1.6 first. I don't know why BHVR is so against incrementalism when it comes to balancing. Everything is either gigabuffed or gets a hammer taken to it.
You pretty much only take the safe shots now and being forced to DS yourself to deal with turrets feels awful. I don't think Xeno is gutted by any means but they're absolutely back to being B tier and they definitely don't feel good to play anymore.
I'm kinda at the point where I'm very doubtful we ever see another A tier killer released which is a bit depressing but it is what it is I guess. Time for the community to go back to Wesker by Daylight.
I mean Wesker got a great perk in his arsenal called Ultimate Weapon, so it won't be surprising people go back to him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2bqqaD7Njw -
Way to miss BHVR's intention. It's not that they don't know MfT is strong it's that they want the meta to be chase oriented. Why do you think they released Ultimate Weapon? Not because it counters MfT but because it starts chases. It's also why there are so many screaming perks now. They nerfed stealth for survivors and are forcing interaction between killer and survivor.
It's really short sighted to not be able to recognize what is it they're going for.
The strength of Xeno chapter isn't the killer themselves but they perk they brought, Ultimate Weapon. You should be running UW+DMS on most killers now, it's crazy how slow to catch up some people are. BHVR wants the meta to move in a specific direction.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541588#Comment_3541588
I'm not sure I would call it overpowered but that is regrettable. I guess they could change it, so that the killer gets the notification but the survivor doesn't let go of the gen. I just hope they don't change it to aura vision. It's refreshing having a perk, that gives you a sound clue when it activates for a change.
I wonder if you can also play it as that cheesy Hex: face the Darkness strategy on some killers while it also being superior cause it's not a hex and it works even when all are healthy.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541651#Comment_3541651
Yes, I realize a survivor could be close to the hook. That survivor can run away from the hook. They aren't required to loop the killer near a hook.
And I can 3 gen perfectly well without Ultimate weapon. It's literally just kick gen and continue patrolling. Survivors are pre-leaving the generators so early, and for so long, that the generators aren't getting repaired, regardless of whether or not they are screaming because of a perk.
And no one needs to devote two perk slots to get value out of Nowhere to hide, because the aura reading lasts long enough basekit. And BBQ is a useless perk, because it's too easily dodged, and it reveals people that are so far away that they'll be long gone before you get there.
And dead man's switch is garbage unless you're Artist, and launching a crow from across the map. The most likely scenario on everyone else is I interrupt someone, chase after them, and the gen gets blocked when I'm chasing the only person that was repairing it, so who cares if it's blocked? And dead man's switch only triggers after a hook, so it doesn't even work in an extended 3-gen, as it requires the killer to actually get hooks.
They'll leave the hook because you're forcing them too by finding them. It's not the natural sequence of things. Quite a few killers bring LP and usually the strongest ones at that. Acting like a Nurse/Blight with one extra perkslot will not be an issue.
That's the thing though, with UW you can bring both a chase starting perk (and it is currently the best info perk in the game for killer) and kick perks because it only takes one slot, effectively aiding each other. You literally need hooks for Pop to take effect as well as Pain resonance. Unless you're running Overcharge/CoB/Eruption or something still.
Dead Man's Switch is not garbage, its pretty useful at slowing down the game and nothing stops you from bringing more gen kicking perks to pair with, which I've seen a lot more often the past few months. It cannot be compared to pre-nerf Eruption ofc but no gen kicking perk can.
Pain Resonance also works incredibly well with it because you know where to go for your next token AND it's no longer reactable since the timing of hook screams got changed.
This perk offers a lot of versatility for most killers (I wonder is there a killer who would not benefit from this perk) and it is especially strong on the strongest killers that have built in mobility.
If this becomes a perk that can be run on any killer and give insane value, then it would be undeniably OP.
To top it all of the skill floor of this perk is incredibly low, even a monkey can use it. It has no skillful pre-requisite (like say it activates after your first hook or first kill or something). It's useful across all killer levels.
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Probably cause the P100s they've played with have been bad (that has been my experience with one P100 I encountered in the wild, they were AFKing in a corner of the map doing nothing).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541589#Comment_3541589
I too thought it was only a Nurse/Blight problem, but DMS nuisance among other issues just make it very frustrating to play against. I almost think it would be fine if it only made the first person scream, or if multiple people are in the TR when opening the locker, then all of them at that time. This is also assuming the bug that Mandy now confirmed involving lockers to be fixed (that is screaming while inside of a locker).
Is the locker screaming intended or a bug? I'm confused.
@Mr_pig2099 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541588#Comment_3541588
WOW... i never thought of this... so true that UW and dead man switch synergizes well.
Yeah and people who claim UW is fine or just strong, never address this part. This perk is so multipurpose and efficient. Doing Lethal Pursuer's and BBQ Chilli/Nowhere to Hide job's better for only one perkslot.
I wonder if it could also synergize with some hex builds as it also interrupts hex cleansing I would assume (ofc correct me if I'm wrong) also being a mini Hex: Face the Darkness.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541550#Comment_3541550
If the killer finds someone with Ultimate weapon immediately after hooking a survivor, then they have a new target to chase, which means they aren't camping, and they aren't tunneling. They're literally chasing someone new, which is what killers are supposed to do.
People keep complaining when killers aren't chasing new targets, but they're also super against killers getting any tools that might help them chase a new target.
You do realize a survivor could be close to the hook right? And finding him means not only is he pressuring the survivor he's chasing but also the hook. Which did not happen with BBQ and Chili.
Isn't it obvious that been able to pressure two objectives close to each other is a strong advantage? And again, in 3-gen situtations UW doesn't force you to chase someone you can easily use it to interrupt gens and commit even less to chases, doing the exact opposite that the perk is supposed to do. How hard is it to understand that UW is not a one dimentional perk?
It counters perks like Distortion, most stealth perks, can synergize with gen slowdown outside its designates role, is a much better information perk than Aura perks and is extremely efficient at that two. Instead of devoting two perk slots for Lethal Pursuer and BBQ/No Where to Hide, you can instead devote one perk that does their jobs even better and allows you to bring one more strong perk. If that is not an advantage what is? This perk is so multi-faceted. And except for denying stealth for survivors and possibly slowing down gen progression with its pair Dead Man Switch (which you have yet to address this combo lol), you can also use it to deny survivors information from their own aura reading perks, which for solo survivors is a huge thing.
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It will be, you forgot that UW synergizes incredibly well with Dead Man Switch. To say this perk is overtune would not be enough. Just watch as we're gonna be getting Eruption tier "counterplays" and how actually it's not an op perk and MfT can counter it cause it buys you more time in chase etc. etc.
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@MvHoeller said:
I tried SWF with some people few years ago. Most killers were easy to deal with, no thrill, no horror feeling, nothing... Just listening to casual stories about random stuff through comms, about washing some cloths, problems with girlfriend, job boredom, alcohol or drug consume habits at the weekend ...and btw the (stealth) killer is here with me, so you can do gens on the other side of the map...
Easy escape and laughing at/teabagging the killer at the exit gates, because we were so superior than he....well...um...
I quit swf very quickliy because thats not how I want to play a horror game....
That's what happens when the game has bad matchmaking. If the game paired you with a killer on your level I don't think you'd feel that way.
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@appleas said:
Ultimate Weapon would be OP if it was the old DBD where Stealth was the common playstyle.
However this isn’t the case anymore. Looping clearly is.
Ultimate Weapon also resolves stall situations where two remaining Survivors just hide for the whole game waiting for the other Survivor to get caught so they can get hatch.
If you can only think of those situation where UW is good then your imagination is lacking.
It's a great gen slowdown tool while also being a chase perk and an information denier for solo survivor.
Watch some youtube videos where people pair it with Dead Man Switch and tell me it's not multipurpose.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541051#Comment_3541051
Killers need reliable counters to survivors that want to excessively hide.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541079#Comment_3541079
If a killer hooks a survivor, and finds someone else with Ultimate weapon, they are incentivized to chase that person to keep up tempo. And if the killer doesn’t find someone else near the hooked survivor, they are incentivized to patrol the map, because they actually have a decent chance of finding someone else, even if those survivors are hiding.
And it incentivizes killers to leave a 3 gen because they might actually be able to find someone to chase. Half of the 3 gen problem involves survivors that pre leave generators when their visual terror radius lights up, and are long gone by the time the killer gets there. Unless the killer has a tracking perk that helps them out, it’s not worth it for the killer to search the area for the survivor, and the killer is better off kicking the generator and going back to patrolling the generators.
The main problem is there are so many line of sight breakers in the game now, that manually searching for survivors that are excessively hiding, is a waste of time unless a tracking perk reveals their location. This isn’t a case of “ultimate weapon makes it so I don’t waste time searching an area where survivors aren’t in”, because I’m not going to waste time searching an area, if I don’t know if anyone is there, if I could be camping or holding a 3 gen instead.
A big part of the camping problem, in general, is that it’s not worth leaving a hooked survivor, to search for survivors that are excessively hiding, unless a tracking perk reveals their location.
What you're saying makes no sense. The reason killers have to leave hook is because if they don;t apply pressure elsewhere the survivors can just do gens. It's not UW that's gonna incentivize them to leave the hook because like I said if someone is close by you don't even have to leave the hook with UW because you'll know. BBQ incentivizes you to leave the hook because it only shows you survivors that are far from the hook.
And same with the 3gen. Killers will avoid to chase survivors if the survivor is running far from the 3-gen. With UW you don't even have to move your ass to scare survivors cause you can just make then scream trigger Dead Man Switch and THEN chase them. You're literally not sacrificing anything and are putting to onus on the survivor to outplay you.
UW survivor actually reinforces all the strategies that people complain are sweaty. Want to tunnel someone but they have Lucky Break and you lost them? Just open a locker. Wanna hold a 3-gen and gen slowdown? Bring UW. Want to be a hook defendor? Bring UW. If anything it seems to me like UW has no downsides because it doesn't make you commit to anything. It simply gives you all the info you need to make your decision as risk free as it can be for the price of one perk.
You bring one perk for chase? Sure UW is good.
Now if you bring Dead Man Switch you just upgraded it to an informal slowdown gen defending perk.
Your posts only makes sense if YOU decide you don't wanna play that way, but that says more about you than it says about a perk that basically allows you to make the safest decisions possible because of all the info it provides. Having to rely on killer's good will whether they wanna use this perk to its fullest potentail or just use it as a chase perk is a flimsy argument.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540829#Comment_3540829
I didn't say any of that. I'm saying that perks like current Ultimate weapon are necessary, if BHVR wants to encourage killers to leave a hooked survivor, or to leave a 3 gen.
And I didn't say anything about countering Ultimate weapon. The whole point of my argument is it shouldn't have 100% counters. The whole point of many of my arguments is that survivors excessively hiding is the biggest problem in the game.
Survivors hiding hasn't been a problem since Nowhere to hide has been released and stealth perks like Iron Will, Calm Spirit, Self Preservation, Spinechill have been bad.
Even if you hate Distortion you can alternatively bring Spies from the Shadows. Ultimate Weapon does things aura reveal does but better and is harder to counter, so of course it's overtuned. But I guess it's ok now because it's a killer perk.
Ultimate Weapon does not discourage any of the strategies you mentioned exactly because it's way better than BBQ and Chill and No where to hide. You hook someone and you just open the locker. Well now you know if someone is close to the hook, so how does that incentivize you to leave hook exactly? How does it disincentivize from holding a 3-gen when you don't even have to personally check to see if someone is on a gen but can simply check the locker therefore saving you the time to walk there? What about when you pair it with Dead Man Switch? If anything it seems to synergize pretty well with gen slowdown.
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3539969#Comment_3539969
RIGHT??? They SLUUUUG the third survivor to get their 4k, and now they're pretending hatch is a big problem. I mean...
Well some people will never be happy even if the chance for the survivor to escape such a scenario were 1%.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540268#Comment_3540268
I literally don't care if people in lockers aren't repairing generators. If I'm searching for survivors, and find zero survivors, then I've wasted all the time I've spent looking for survivors, and I would have been better off camping or holding a 3-gen, instead of wasting time trying to find survivors that are excessively hiding. And there's zero point of almost every killer aura perk in the game, because lockers and distortion hard counters most of them.
The result is that if Ultimate weapon gets nerfed, then killers are better off just running slowdown, and proxy camping instead of wasting time looking for a new target. And if a killer is patrolling generators, kicks the generator and doesn't see anyone, then the best action is to immediately go back to patrolling generators.
Doctor's secondary survivor reveal is much better than Ultimate Weapon, because zero things in the game block it. And static blast helps unlock Doctor's secondary survivor reveal.
People already proxy camp and bring slowdown, what are you on? Same argument everytime "if killers get buffs they won't have to resort to camping/slugging/tunneling" and we all saw what happened during the Eruption meta, although i would not be surprised if you started to argue that it was actually a perfectly balanced perk lol.
People who are not confident in their chase skills bring 3 or more slowdowns still, have you been living under a rock? Others can bring a combination of slowdown and aura perks, so they can transition to the next target. Are we gonna argue again about "actually if you play the game perfectly as survivor and with good co-ordination Ultimate weapon isn't a problem" like when the exact same thing happened with Eruption? "Actually if you equip Empathy you can see when your teammate is gonna go down and let go of the gen". Not to mention this meta had the worst 3-gens that unless you brought toolboxes and perks for breaking it you couldn't do anything and we'd still get bullshit counterplay advice. So yeah even when killer was pretty strong, killers still did all those strategies you claim they would do if the perk got nerfed. I'm frankly exhausted of getting the same argument that is not even true in 2023. And the worst offenders for those disliked strategies are none other than the strongest killers as well who actually can afford to play in a different way, they already do proxy-camping, holding 3-gens , slugging and tunneling pre UW and after.
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@sonata93 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540561#Comment_3540561
Cause he was using his m1 a lot, wasn’t very good with chainsaw and kept missing/going into tantrum so by the end of the match wasn’t even bothering.
That wasn’t really the point of my post, though?
I mean you called him sweaty but now that you described he seems more like inexperienced which makes sense why you could body block and escape.
And kinda sucks to have such extremes as solo survivor really.
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@Dogma_loki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540530#Comment_3540530
TLDR "skill issue, get good"
😂
Eruption level argument.
When solo survivors have a hard time it's a skill issue.
When I say, actually SWF can carry even average survivors who can't loop, I still hear skill issue still.
When a killer main says the same thing as me, suddenly the game is actually survivor sided and the game should have an option to opt out of playing against SWF💀
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540501#Comment_3540501
I would hardly say "we're aware of the problems with Skull Merchant and 3-genning, and are working towards addressing the issues with both in the near future" as not doing anything to address her or act like there is nothing wrong.
To address your other point, no of course I don't advocate for violence, what meatheaded idiot would say thats ok? However because apparantly I have to explain my point a little clearer:
In life we have disagreements all the time, and ultimately in real life a heavy disagreement can end in violence. Both people in an argument understand that, and it actually helps keep things civil to a degree. If know you're antagonising your opposition, you're much more likely to try and calm the situation instead of continuing to antagonise.
Online however, there is no threat of things escalating to violence, and there is no accountability. That's why cheating is a problem online, but is much less so in real life, because when cheating in real life, the threat of violence is there. Think of poker games in the old West... people actually died because of just the suspicion of cheating.
Now you tell me, do you think, in real life, playing something like Skull Merchant in this style, a style not intended by the games design, knowing full well it antagonises and annoys everyone else in the game, and doing it anyway would not be heavily challenged irl? Do you think people would still do it if they knew they were actually going meet the person they were doing it to that same evening? I do not think so.
EDIT: Now of course, just the fact it might piss people off and cause arguments is not a strong reason to say playing Skull Merchant like this is wrong. However a commonly praised trait in people is sportsmanship.
Lord knows there are plenty of people here, who don't bother to play with sportsmanship, but there are people do... and if you can continue do so, even when everyone else around you is being toxic, unfair, exploitative and antagonistic, then more power to you. However you don't get to complain about others doing these negative behaviours, if you do them yourself.
That's why I make the point the community won't respect you if you do these kind of things, and IRL would turn a blind eye to someone knocking you on your backside.
3-genning is a strategy available for every killer in the game granted they bring specific perks and it has been meta in the past and can still be. Skull Merchant simply takes that strategy and specializes in it the same way Sadako specializes in slugging (or at least used to more) and Bubba in camping. Those killers have a clear identity and concept in them, just cause they're adding anti-facecamping mechanic doesn't suddenly mean Bubba's camping ability got nerfed, it didn't. He can still camp just fine, he'll just be a bit more far away. I don't think Bubba (face)camping will be solved with this change.
Should we punish people who play him and shame them when they go for this intended style, despite BHVR attempting to address this part of the game but not touching the worst offender of all? It's the same argument for Skull Merchant, I don't think they wanna remove this part of her gameplay they just want to probably tune her. She'll still be a boring killer to face because that will most likely remain her core identity/playstyle. Isn't it funny how after Hens made a video about an hour long Knight game back in the Eruption meta BHVR saw that and created a killer who's ability is just that? It's not an accident, even when she's addressed she'll still be here to stay. Maybe they intend her to be on the same level as Blight and Nurse strength wise but with a low skill floor for whatever reason. That's basically someone updating the ruleset, it's an official source. You cannot arbitrarily claim she's not intended by game design, it's exactly the argument many killers make about SWF and discord. Maybe she was not intended a year ago, but BHRV added her and now she's intended. And again, you can see that from her prototype Knight. It wasn't a lab freak accident, it was a pretty calculated design. They're just trying to ironing her wrinkles. When they completely rework her and she's not a 3-genner anymore I'll be able to accept your point more easily.
There's just no point in going into the thread and trying to make an argument that a person who plays Skull Merchant is immoral. First of all reacting in such a manner over a game is too dramatic and second they're basically not breaking any rules, nor has BHVR ever made a statement regarding players who main SM are exploiting her and should be ashamed or something.
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@sonata93 said:
I would say it’s inconsistent at best.
for example, I had a match before against a really sweaty Bubba who camped and used a full end game build. My solo queue team were very good and thanks to some totem hunting, distractions, body blocking and protection hits we all escaped.
On the flip side, on my first match of the day I died on first hook whilst one teammate ran to the opposite side of the match to self care every time they got hit (by a Legion), whilst the other two did everything besides repairing a gen.
That’s the thing: you just don’t know. Sometimes I finish a session and love the game, other times I genuinely consider uninstalling.
Damn, how did Bubba let you body block for each other...
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540423#Comment_3540423
It is not about playing the killer itself but the playstyle, that much should be obvious...
Which is allowed and facilitated by the creators themselves.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540369#Comment_3540369
Trying to undermine the point by picking apart a hypothetical example isnt very genuine if you, but eh, alright I'll provide better example.
For all intents and purposes our game platform here is a playground, as we're all playing a game here, so that part of your argument is weak.
Let's say you put the ball under your shirt, and use your shirt to hold the ball without touching it with your hands. There is no rule against it, so that is the "developers" fault for allowing it. You use this to run through the opposing team, who can't take the ball off you without fouling you. You get away with it once, and decide to keep doing it.
However you're in real life now, not safe behind your computer screen. The opposing team will get tired of your BS pretty fast. Next time you try it, 2 players "accidentally" trip, as one falls behind your feet, the other slams shoulder first into you and knocks you hard on your ass.
What do you learn here? Perhaps nothing and history repeats itself, or maybe you learn to consider others experiences in the game, and instead of being a smart ass, hold some self accountability and start to play in the spirit of game.
I guess then you're in favor of what was happening back in the arcade days where people who would find a new strategy in fighting games and used it (usually teens) and people bigger than them who probably would agree with you would bully them and threaten them with violence and have tantrums over someone not following their made up rules or something. And now after all those years those people look remember them as complete clowns and mentally unstable individuals for reacting that way over the game.
Your example has no basis in reality because the rules are made by BHVR themself, except for cheating and exploits of course. They designed and added SM in the game in her current state and are not doing anything to address her nor even acting like there's anything wrong with her. If they allow you to put your imaginary ball under your shirt then is it really unintended when they (BHVR) acting like the referee do nothing to actually address it and say "X this is not allowed and will be considered cheating from now on". Currently they are not, you should be mad at them not at players who are not cheating or using well defined exploits in the game (no, your personal definition of an exploit doesn't count)
Your post is on the same level as the killers who claim "this game was never intended to be played with friends and using discord in pubs is actually cheating/exploit".
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540392#Comment_3540392
Well, just as your argument is coming from your experience mine is coming from mine. In games where me or someone in my group want hatch for whatever reason, the vast majority of the time we get it to spawn.
If your experience is different then there's not much to say. I'm not playing in your games I'm not seeing what you see. You can't disprove my experience and I can't disprove yours.
We both don't have any stats to work with afaik.
If you are really getting denied hatch most of the time in your games and you feel like there's not much you can do, then I can see why you are taking the stance that you are.
In that case I believe that the core of the friction might be because our experiences with the mechanic and what does and doesn't work for us are wildly different for whatever reason. Maybe region, maybe MMR, maybe mindset, maybe playstyle, maybe something else.
As such, I'm fine leaving the conversation as it it. I don't believe we can really come to any further agreement or take the conversation anywhere else when our experiences appear to be the opposite of one another, as fundamentally what would help for one would harm the other.
I play solo and never bother for hatch if killer decides to slug, I just do gens if there are any left and if I find an opportunity I got and heal the other survivor.
My experience above is when I'm the one getting slugged for the 4k. It's very few times that the other survivor actually gets to find the hatch and survive after 4 minutes are gone.
Maybe you experience is different if you play in SWF as it is a more controlled environment. I'm talking as a solo survivor for the most part.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540391#Comment_3540391
If you look at smaller communities especially in custom game lobbies they regulate fairly well, also tf2 is a way larger game than DBD and will most likely never die because for some reason it still exists.
You seem to confuse politeness and caring for other people, which should be taught by parents before children go play with their friends with what some brats come up with when bullying, it is not about the unwanted behavior but about the behavior the community wishes for itself.
The devs could not even come up with different game mode or some basic functions every other game seems to have, like replay mode or saving replays, blocking communication which certain players and so on. So I don't really have trust in their abilities, such things are the bare minimum for a game 10 years ago and it is just pathetic that this game does not have it in 2023.
Im not saying that all those communities should come up with only one rule set to hold up, but maybe one for each server in case they are truly different. If people come to an agreement of certain rules they want to hold up that can totally work, that's basically what guilds and clans in other games do for example.
The comp community also uses their specific rule set and excludes you if you don't play along those rules, so obviously self regulation can work, because it has proved to work in many games.
The game is basically neither, it is not competitive because of its rng and busted stuff on both sides, but also matchmaking not working and it is neither a party game because you cannot just start it and have fun with friends because the new player experience is terrible and once again matchmaking is too bad and it will make it miserable.
The op never said they rub it in the face of survivors. They could very well be polite and kind in post chat, we have no way of knowing that. Asking them to not play Skull Merchant and if they do not play them the way you like ever is a bit entitled. I understand disliking this killer and their playstyle. I also dislike Nurses and Blights who sweat even one peron DC'd or killed themselves on hook and make fun of them.
But it's a stretch to try and put a moral spin to a post like this and talk about community (which community again? We don't even know what server OP plays in).
And if you wanna make comparison asking people to self-regulate cause the company is untrustworthy or something is like saying we can solve environmental pollution by using paper straws and cups etc. and accept it as individual responsibility and refuse to address the ones who produce the most pollutants because you're pessimistic. It won't solve the problem, just put a cover over it. You shame OP out of playing Skull Merchant but you can't get to every Skull Merchant main out there who feels the exact same way or people who play her in comp etc.
For a long while I thought survivor's rulebook was an exaggerrated story killers read to each other before going to bed, but in some of the posts I've read today I'm starting to doubt my assumption so far.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540109#Comment_3540109
I use 'Hostage Merchant' because I legitimately believe when they play in that way, they are holding the match hostage. Preventing your opponent from winning is different from advancing your own win condition. If they are seeking out a 60 minute match where all the Survivors die and they consider that a 'win', then they most certainly are intentionally holding the match hostage. If they actually leave the drone zone for longer than 30s with the intent to actually not go back instantly if the HUD says a Survivor is over there (especially when they are actively in chase), then I have no issue with those players. Those are Skull Merchant players. The rest are Hostage Merchants. In my matches, 1 in 10 are Skull Merchants, and 9 in 10 are Hostage Merchants.
That kind of playstyle exists in other games as well. If I'm not wrong Hungrybox(Jigglypuff smash bro player) and Jwong (old SF player) play in that way which they call "lame" of playing defensively and waiting for the timer if they get a lead. It's a legit way although widely hated. The only acceptable thing in those games though is that the matches are relatively short but in DBD they can take a pretty long time. And that it's relatively easy to determine who won the round even if the timer drops to 0.
The issue in DBD is that Skull Merchant can force abnormally long games and in such a case she wins by default for tiring her competition. But again that's something BHVR should address. Perhaps instead of games being able to last one hour they should be reduced to 30 seconds and add a secondary win condition when the game ends because of the timer (like some ratio of gens done and hooks earned). She's their design after all, I do not believe for a second they cannot recognize how problematic she can be.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540350#Comment_3540350
Well let me try to clarify.
I never said it needs to be 100%, but as is now if the survivor hides and wants hatch to spawn they have pretty damn good odds. Maybe not 100% but way better odds than the killer finding whatever random spot they threw themselves in. Survivors mostly only get caught before then if they make a risky play for the 2nd survivor, get caught as the killer downs the 2nd survivor, or the killer gets lucky.
It only works because the survivors let it, not because it's inherently a good counter. It's stopped by just waiting safely. But it's the only option the killer really has if they want to try and play around it.
Maybe a rewording and deeper explanation would help. My main point is that hatch has flaws, especially from the base kit system and/or the killer side perspective, that make it unequal. Part of the question asked was "is hatch fair". Which from that perspective, no it's not. As with any other perceived flawed thing in the game, people (me included) are going to suggest ways to improve it and their gripes. As a neutral player who plays and cares about both sides of the game, I would like it to be evened out somehow, or at the very least improved upon.
So, as I responded to someone else, if hatch being replaced or removed or a new system for killers is too much, then maybe something else such as cutting out the 3rd chance from the equation would at least be an improvement. Such as when the killer finds hatch the survivor gets EGC sacrificed or something similar to just end the game and improve the slog that can happen sometimes and to balance it out at least a little. Whoever finds hatch first gets the E or gets the K.
I'm open to other solutions and improvements, but so far I haven't really been purposed any as far as I can recall at this time.
Where are the stats then? Because the majority of the time I've been in that situation the killer ends up finding the survivor anyway. How reliably can the last survivor wait out 4 minutes while hiding perfectly AND get the hatch first?
You spoke about odds I'm expecting some back up on those claims.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540369#Comment_3540369
He is still interacting with other people and that does not change just because it is not in person but over the internet. Some communities self regulate more than dbd...
Communities that self-regulate are usually tiny and sometimes die for it.
In fighting games there used to be a bunch of arbitrary rules people would set like no grabs or some OP move. I don't think they would have survived if the devs just let those communities self-regulate. Instead fighting games got both a grab button and the ability to break a grab as well as extensive combos (combos started as a bug btw).
The devs can very well help this game develop and become better than it currently is, moralizing over a video that adults play and comparing it to playground lessons is kind of silly. What's next we should bully and demean the weakest survivor/killer we come across because that's what happens in playgrounds?
You cannot be asking from people across the world to self-regulate according to your standards. Different places come up with different codes of honor. The people that post here aren't a hivemind and probably players from the US, EU and Asia differ a lot on their perception of what is ok and what isn't.
People who play competitive games play broken stuff like Skull Merchant all the time, even pro players do it. Are we supposed to punish OP that voiced something that is frowned upon here but might be more widespread than this forum has you believe? If you get this moralistic over a video game and a player you will probably never meet, then I don't know what to say to you.
You know who can regulate things? Well devs can, perhaps you should be asking them to implement changes you want and encourage your point of view instead making it harder and harder to tell if this game is competitive or a party game to begin with.
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@UndeddJester said:
"Yeah, but I'm having fun... " is an attitude that hurts a lot of online games. It's a selfish mindset that people only get away with through the anonymity of the Internet.
On the playground, if you were to say... try and keep hold of the ball and never pass to your team with the same mindset of "Yeah, but I'm having fun...", you'd get reality checked pretty damned fast.
You learn in real life to be selfless and considerate, or at least you learn to pretend to be, because there are actual consequences to getting caught being selfish. Sadly not an option here, so enjoy it, because you can do so without penalty, but the community will never respect you for it, and creating a post that explains your point of view, begs the question "why?".
What is this? A moral lesson?
Frankly he's not in the playground nor is he playing in a team. Killer is a solo activity. It's not his job to play in a way you like and vice versa, it's BHVR's job to ensure both parties are having fun. They created Skull Merchant and are currently doing nothing to address her. They're also doing nothing to address the frustration casual players experince being forced to play with sweaty Nurses, Blights, Skull Merchants and etc. instead of making two modes to pander to both crowds that have conflicting interest (one crowd wanting to chill and another to sweat).
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540238#Comment_3540238
Well saying hatch doesn't count for a kill or escape, then counting it as a kill or escape doesn't make sense. But its BHVR so I wouldn't put it past them.
I can't talk for "people" and what they might be okay with if they haven't said so one way or the other. A that point I'm just heavily assuming. But if a change to solve a problem, or any change, causes an imbalance you should correct it or compensate for it. I didn't bring it up because it was never necessary to bring up. It would have just been unsubstantial fluff convoluting the discussion and point I was trying to make.
I am against all the things you mentioned for RNG. They are just not the topic at this time.
Breaking pallets is the killer equivalent of survivors dropping them, not for hatch. Imagine if killers couldn't break pallets. It's not an advantage it's an equalizer. Hatch still has no equal.
Ok well if we're talking base kit then why did you even bring up the perks to begin with? That's why I said it doesn't matter anyway.
As I told you earlier, a survivor can wait out the slug. The survivor can choose not to and risk getting caught which is what happens sometimes. But as is you can just hide and get hatch to spawn extremely more often than not. People can choose not to but that's on them not the game.
"you cannot expect a 100% winrate on certain strategies that's delusional."
Good thing I never expected or asked for that.
"If you wanna have the MfT + Hope discussion."
I don't. That's not relevant like I said earlier in this and the last post. You're the one who brought it up. I just responded.
Even if the survivor waits out the 4 mins you can still find the hatch first or the survivor first. You're implying that being unable to 100% guarantee hatch denial is not good enough, but then claim you were not insinuating that a 100% winrate...ok? The winrate was not mentioned for all the games, but being able to deny hatch 100% of the time would give you 100% in the scenarios you crush survivors at 4-5 gens, that's where it was pointed at.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540311#Comment_3540311
Why shouldn't killer players worry about the potential of a "anti camp" mechanic inadvertently allowing survivors to get free unhooks because the rescuer happens to be trying to loop the killer on the tile the hooked person is?
Tribalism takes like yours aren't healthy viewpoints.
Why do you need to FACEcamp again?
It does nothing against proxy camping which good killers use. You're not supposed to be staring at the survivor while he dies. If anything this is good for bad killers because now they'll have to learn proxy camping which is the superior strategy. They won't lose 3 gens anymore thinking they can force people to come save against their Bubba and not gen rush them while they're doing the most suboptimal play of the century that relies on survivors having zero communication and not knowing the counter to facecamping.
Any wise survivor will just not bother save against good face-campers and do gens to leave, especially when they're on communication and everyone agrees on it.
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@jmts16 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536671#Comment_3536671
It's honestly ridiculous how playing Solo Survivor is the single worst way to gain BPs despite being by far the most frustrating way to play the game.
Maybe they should give BP incentives 200%.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536684#Comment_3536684
Dude, this thread is about Ultimate Weapon, if I started talking about how I hate Made for This and that it needs to be changed that's blatently going off topic. If I feel like it I might comment in one of the many MFT threads and give my opinion on it there but this isn't the place for it.
You're literally telling me I can't discuss my opinion on this thread's topic without bringing up unrelated information.
Also I DO think MFT should be nerfed, I really don't understand what your problem is, I'm a killer main.
Probably one of those people going"actually if you bring Empathy you can let go of the gen before your teammate goes down and Eruption won't hit you".
MfT and UW being strong at the same time is cause BHVR wants to push the meta in this direction. It's not a coincidence MfT is not getting addressed yet and UW is a perk that starts chases, because the want a chase focused meta. The only way to counter UW maybe currently is to not go down to deny killer pressure. How do you not go down? You bring MfT. UW being stronger just reinforces the need for MfT to stay strong.
They probably had this planned all along that's why MfT has not been addressed so far.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533016#Comment_3533016
It would be a useless tracking perk if it was blocked by lockers. Most of the tracking perks are useless because they are hard countered by lockers.
If I'm expected to leave a hooked survivor to find a different target to chase, then I want a real way to find hiding survivors, that isn't going to be blocked by lockers. And many aura perks are useless because they are hard countered by distortion. And survivors can counter this perk if they really wanted, it would just take up a perk slot. I've been camping a lot less when I'm equipping this perk, because I feel like there's real value in leaving a hooked survivor.
Imagine complaining about lockers lmao when you could complain about Distortion of all perks. Hiding in lockers provides you downtime because that means survivors are not doing gens and a killer that brings aura perks also brings Lethal Persuer which makes every other aura last 2 secs more. Plus you can only go into the locker when you know they are hooking someone, how can you know the triggered aura building in other instances?
If Doctor can play fine with lockers then there's no reason for this perk to be even better that Doctor's power, except for BHVR's weird desire of changing the meta as it is currently doing.
All that's left now is people saying UW is actually not strong at all so I can have flashbacks of killers claiming Eruption was actually counterable if you brought Empathy and could tell when your teammate was going down.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540163#Comment_3540163
Losing the argument? They either made up points and pretended I said them, straw manned, whataboutismed, ad hominemed, completely ignored points they cant counter, or didn't even understand the game.I don't agree with every argument in this thread, but you way over deploy strawman, especially because you don't explain why..
I was wasting my time with someone either heavily biased or just clueless but doesn't see it.Yet you took the time to respond. If you are going to respond to an argument, saying you didn't read it is silly. If you think its that much of a waste of your time, don't engage.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540166#Comment_3540166
Ok so like I keep saying and like I've been saying since the beginning, give the killer an equivalent or replace it. Doesn't have to be removed and that's it.You like fallacies: this is the Nirvana fallacy. You are looking for a perfect solution. It's possible the hatch is the best solution that can be achieved.
Even we grant every complaint you have about hatch, we run into these two things:
Not having the hatch would make the game considerably less fun.
Giving the killer an equivalent "power" would make the game considerably less fun.
I might have missed a proposed solution, but I saw base kit blood warden after 3 survivors escape. Would you really be interested in playing a game like this as either the killer or last survivor (not even counting how easily SWFs would deal with this)? I have no interest in playing either scenario.
Alternatively just replace hatch with something like aura reading on the survivor to speed it up the death process then. If your only concern is speeding it up as that would remove the "robbery" or undeserved RNG escape aspect, or w.e. you want to call it.Again, how is that a fun game? The killer has a massive advantage and the survivor is doomed. Why are we even playing the game at that point?
Games require both sides to have some chance of victory. If one side can no longer realistically achieve victory, the game should end (either by design or a mercy rule). There can be a little bit of downtime as one side finalizes the victory: example carrying the survivor to the hook, but otherwise once the chance to progress is gone the game should be over.
The hatch mechanic keeps the idea that there is something to play for. That is absolutely needed.
It's possible there is a superior solution to the hatch mechanic, but I've never heard one that doesn't have even more problems.
Mini Blood Warden isn't the equivalent of hatch. The killer can actually close hatch. What can the last survivor do to de-activate Blood Warden? Does he have to wait out as now? Obviously this is not going for you but whoever proposed it.
The hatch still exists in its current form exactly because killer can close it. Just slapping a Blood Warden for last survivor while killer can close hatch doesn't address much of the new unfairness that is born of such a mechanic.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536115#Comment_3536115
Half the games I win (which is a good bit) have survivors make at least 1 gigantic mistake, that leaves you wondering how they could even manage to mess up so bad. It's not slightly unoptimal when someone kills themself on first hook because they didn't get their way. And it's neither slightly unoptimal when survivors rush at a killer with an insta down and make themselves easy targets.
I also don't consider sitting on a gen in the killer's face when you are dead on hook a slightly unoptimal play. Or 3 people running around a recently hooked survivor. Or camping every pallet and never attempting to loop anything (backfires, if the game goes too long). These are all things that are so easily avoidable when you actually use your brain for a bit.
Many survivors are so bad at the game, that they can only push themselves with their strongest items and addons. But when they go against someone, who plays good in the 1v4 they crumble. This is not just a solo queue issue but a skill issue in general.
Whatever makes you sleep at night.
It is very much a solo survivors. You cannot gut self-healing to encourage altruistic healing and act surprised the ones suffering are solo players.
Nor leave strategies like camping, tuneling, slugging and 3-genning in the game and say "survivors" just bad when the game offers you no baseline option to co-ordinate anything (currently you can only co-ordinate Adrenaline because of the UI) unless you bring specific perks which hurt your chasing or gen potential.
If this was true people would not be crying about SWF that might not be great but can get by on teamwork for the most part. Solo survivors have to be unfairly good at all aspects of the game to get a 3+ man out and sometimes even bad killers can clutch wins cause co-ordination is lacking.
I started a DBD clone almost 2 months ago and I've ranked both solo and with discord. The difference is insane. I could be looping for 2-3 gens and whether I can talk with people or not can still greatly impact the result of the game even when in that game you can still communicate some rudimentary stuff with randoms unlike DBD that makes no effort whatsoever.
DBD survivors in comparison are a lot weaker than Identity V survivors, and the killers here have regression perks while the Hunters there don't (since it's hard to compare if killers or hunters are stronger comparatively).
To get a random team of solo who can beat a 1k+ hours Blight/Nurse etc. should not be considered the baseline for solo survivors and call anything below that bad, it's really uninformed and greatly diminishes the efforts of the survivors as well as their accomplishment in such a case. Imagine the game sense it requires all 4 to have to accomplish that without being able to say "take over this gen for me", "I'll go for the save" etc. ANd the maps are a lot weaker on DBD as well.