JohnNemesisMan
JohnNemesisMan
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098909#Comment_4098909
In the fighting game community, you would get laughed at for complaining about that, and rightfully so.
I suggest reading the free ebook by game designer David Sirlin, Playing to Win. Here is an excerpt from the book:
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
To further add to that, FGC players don't give a ######### on what they have to do to win as long as they win. Putting Mortal Kombat as an example is crazy specially since MK has long since had a history of 50/50 overhead lows and cheap mechanics like super armor or bar spending to make combos safe. Literally mentioning the series from a background spectator's perspective without the proper knowledge to strawman the argument.
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098722#Comment_4098722
I wonder how the killer mains would feel like if they were stunned in place for 70 seconds, unable to play the game, watching the gens fly around them if they hard-tunneled someone, because that is how it really feels like being on the receiving end of it.
Just because someone has to slug that doesn't mean sunshine and flowers for killer. An example would be someone using Boil Over to run to a hook deadzone (or certain main buildings like Badham lower floor or top floor of ironworks), then just be in awkward situation where you have to leave them there because there's literally nothing you can do.
And funny you mention being stuck for about 70 seconds because that's the time it takes for DS to de-activate which is another reason some killers will leave people on the ground. You can also thank Sabo toolboxes and Background player for scaring off people from picking a survivor up right after a down.
I don't find slugging fun for either side and the only times I do it as killer is when I know that if I pick that survivor up, something is going to go terribly wrong. Asking 'how killer mains would feel' when they get their own baggage to deal with feels like bad faith.
Can we agree that slugging and having reasons to slug both suck equally and should not be looked as survivor only problem? -
@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
As an alternative since the cakes aren't really worth collecting anymore?
I've been going through the whole (Acclaim) Turok trilogy, remastered by nightdive. Getting all the achievements on steam as ive played them many times on N64 but now they are on pc with achievements. Currently finnished with 1 and 3 and playing through 2 again to get the last 2 achievements (beat the game on hardest difficulty and find all secrets)
Bought Batman Arkham Knight and Mad Max in the summer sale, I couldn't finish them when I owned a console so I am replaying them on PC. I already finished Arkham Knight and I am now going to the extra DLC missions, both great games being sold for dirt cheap.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096196#Comment_4096196
What fast paced meta though? Did survivor running speed increase? Did gen times go down? Most of the popular perks are still years old. SB is still meta. What's mostly changed is that powerful killers keep coming out and people want every killer to be that way.
I am not talking about literal speed. I am talking about how long trials last, its the current meta. If a survivor isn't being efficient on gens, or killers are taking too long in a chase, they're underperforming, that goes for both sides. This is just the reality of current DBD.
Most killers with 4.4m/s, unless they have an oppressive power, will naturally take longer to do things in a trial like traversal or dealing with chases chases than killers with 4.6m/s.
I don't think making a killer like Springtrap or Trickster 4.6m/s make them as annoying as post PTB buff Krasue or Jason, because those are strong because their power was really annoying to deal with. -
@cogsturning said:
Yet we have more and more people asking for 4.4s to be 4.6. This playerbase won't be happy until every killer requires no effort.
I don't know where asking for the bare minimum for a killer has become no effort. Unless the Killer power can literally replace every single situation where an M1 would come into play (killers like Henry or Spirit), I don't think its unfair to ask for some of the older killers to have better movement speed to keep up with the current fast pace meta.
For Jason specifically, he can literally avoid it by just spamming teleport whenever he becomes 4.4m/s. Its like Myers' 4.2m/s, it literally makes no difference to him because he's 4.6m/s when it matters. I feel his more annoying tool worthy of discussion for his balance is his teleport, which I agree with that is too oppressive on some maps and the counterplay is silly. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086634#Comment_4086634
This was in response to a conversation involving a stream of people coming to a thread about Jason to complain about Cross Examination for some reason, not about Jason's perks.
But how often do you see the ST2 perks? TBTC has become meta by doing the same thing all the killer meta perks do (how creative and exciting) while I maybe see We See You occasionally. Dustin's perks are non existent. There also wasn't that much hype and talk about that chapter. Henry got his subsequent nerfs in relative silence, and how often do you really see him? Not so much for the most recent killer. If we get one useful perk out of a chapter it's a miracle.
Right, thread is going so fast is hard to keep up.
Cross Examination is another can of worms but this is not the thread for it, but in no way I think is a miracle to get a good perk from a chapter, at least from the survivor side. Before ST2, all survivor perks that came before found some use.
Vee had Ghost Notes and One-two-three-four.
Michone came with Conviction
Orlea had Do No Harm (a little less used now due diminishing returns)
Taurie had Shoulder the Burden
Belmond's perks never got meta but they weren't horrible either
Lara brought Finesse
I don't know in what world survivor aren't getting amazing perks, specially with Elusive right around the corner and finding itself in more and more perks. When compared to Jason's perks, it makes them feel like garbage. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086288#Comment_4086288
People say they want a new meta but anytime a perk or item is released and they aren't straight trash everyone screams until they're destroyed. Even older perks like Plot Twist are suddenly a problem.
So it's pain res/dms and SB/Vigil every match, becuause that's what the serial complainers seem to want.
People just want something functional. Stranger Things Chapter 2 actually brought stuff literally no one complained about because not only it was usable and it had good synergy with existing perks. People are complaining now because no one wants to have to break 13 pallets to get full value out of a perk that only activates if you're stunned/blinded.
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086405#Comment_4086405
I genuinely think all Slinger needs is Keys and part of his Cigar add-on along with a ever so slightly smaller TR and he'll be perfectly balanced. Currently Slinger is really a potential killer as his entire strength is constantly being able to hit your shots and if you can't he's pretty terrible.
Regarding 4.6 he will be incredibly unfun to play against if he became 4.6 because yeah sure he can get around the map easier, but an already extremely lethal killer in chase becomes literally impossible to avoid. Correct me if im wrong but his base speed also affects his reeling speed so I'm pretty sure that would just make his power unavoidable when hit.
Just because something isn't stronger than killers that are nearing S tier doesn't mean its balanced or fun for both sides. Honestly a game balanced around S tiers and killers at the top of A tier isn't a game I would want to play and I'm glad dead by daylight is slowly moving away from that.
All in all, I think Deathslinger should be punished for missing shots and zoning, but not punished for hitting his shots and deciding to reload allowing tge survivor to get so much distance.
Just because something isn't stronger than killers that are nearing S tier doesn't mean its balanced or fun for both sides.
I literally just said he would be ranked below A-tier killers, how low in comparison to other killers he needs to be to be balanced? Hell, even if you were to give him the buffs you just talked about (keys + cigar basekit) AND make him 4.6m/s, he STILL wouldn't be above any of the A-tiers killer.
I doubt he would be impossible to avoid either, he would just be made harder to mindgame on loops because he doesn't take 10 hours to reach a survivor for a hit on loops he can't shoot over. -
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085873#Comment_4085873
Truthfully he could use some buffs but the main reason he's 4.4 is because any faster and he'd just be able to zone everything more or less and be awful to play against.
He already got some buffs to his reload speed and movement speed while reloading, it did nothing. Slightly increasing numbers related to his power is not going to make him any better. At the very least he'll be able to move around the map and mindgame on tiles that are impossible to shoot over.
And again? Would that make him stronger than Hillbilly? Singularity? Dracula? No? Then again, what's the problem? Slinger is a low B tier. -
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085695#Comment_4085695
We shouldn't have any S tier killers or survivor perks for that matter. S tier stuff are things that are horribly broken and should be removed because they are impossible to balance the rest of the game with.
So if Slinger wouldn't become S-tier neither he would rank above most A-tiers what the excuse for keeping him 4.4m/s?
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Would Slinger being 4.6m/s make him stronger than the current S-Tier or even A-Tier killers? No? Then make him 4.6 m/s.
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Not one Blight mentioned on this list, lol
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076495#Comment_4076495
Shoulder flick is not a bug, it's how his hitbox works. By the way, the own BHV team already posted a shorts with Lilith explaining how to do it. And without it would be very easy to juke his hits.
This. Before his fix, Blight had plenty of hits that wouldn't land because his hitbox was bugged. They removed the auto aim and its now working properly ever since his release. He already got some sizeable nerfs with 4.4m/s and losing tokens on pallet break, he doesn't need to get the Skull Merchant treatment.
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DBD Mobile is gone and from the looks of it, not coming back any time soon. I just hope if it ever makes a comeback, it doesn't get heavily monetized like it did before.
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Attack Titan skins are just leftovers from the DBD mobile whose skin system was different than what we had in live. I don't think we can expect this sort of thing in the future, but who knows?
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I'd rather have them add a easier way to get the items/addons you want over giving more and more bloodpoints. We already got the bulk spending, so a more proper shop or addon exchange that lets you get what you need without relying on RNG spending could make it a more comfortable system to use and invest on.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074959#Comment_4074959
Translation: It's allowed for Killer so it's OK, but Survivor needs to be punished.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074989#Comment_4074989
The Survivors do not win. It's a tie every time. The results are discarded. And like I said, what if those Survivors wanted to play?What if they had challenges? What if they had adepts? None of that matters apparently.
Translation: It's allowed for Killer so it's OK, but Survivor needs to be punished.
They're being punished because they abandoned their team, not because they played in a certain way. No game should ever allow a player to just abandon the team who wanted to play because they felt like it.
The Survivors do not win. It's a tie every time. The results are discarded. And like I said, what if those Survivors wanted to play?What if they had challenges? What if they had adepts? None of that matters apparently.
Everything you just said is much worse if a survivor ally decided to DC. Going for a adept, challenge or just wanted to play the game? You're now stuck with a bot with no game sense that will likely die very soon. If a killer left and instead survivors were left with a mindless bot, forcing them to play through the trial with a non-player, then I'd understand the perspective, but the game ends right there and you get to queue up soon after.
Its not that its accepted behavior, its that no one cares. Its such a non-issue that ends so quickly that most people don't mind if killer leaves because they just get to queue with another killer soon after. And for whatever reason, you're trying to point out that a killer DC'ing and ending the game is the same as survivor DC'ing, leaving their team behind mid match because they felt the game was over for them.
The only time this comparison is applicable is in 2v8, where if a killer abandons their teammate after waiting a long queue. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074732#Comment_4074732
A Killer tunneling one person out at 5 gens forces the trial to be mismatched and is nearly impossible to compete in unless the Killer adapts their playstyle. These days if a Survivor DCs at 5 gens, the remaining Survivors are given a bot that will still take chase, unhook, heal, complete gens, and open the gates.
When it comes down to it, it's an unfair moral argument. Killer is given the most autonomy over the trial and is allowed to rage quit for a laundry list of reasons, while Survivor is not.
You were comparing a killer tunneling to survivors DC'ing in terms of accepted behavior. That's not the same. Nobody said anything about killers DC'ing. Bots are usually dead weight regardless, everyone would rather have a living player over a bot.
And if the killer DCs, the survivors win and the killer loses. If a survivor DCs, it doesn't just affect them, it affects the team that was left behind and instantly puts them in a losing position. -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074729#Comment_4074729
Neither do you. If Ghostface is as weak as you say, looping him doesn't mean you're a strong Survivor.
That is true because looping has nothing to do with Ghostface's potential. He has no anti-loop so he's incredibly predictable to loop against, any survivor can run around him because there's nothing he can do aside mindgame like every other killer without powers, he has to resort of on his stealth and catching people off guard if he wants a chance at winning.
A strong survivor would instead be focusing on turning off Ghostface's stealth and keeping an eye from where he's coming from. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074215#Comment_4074215
Conversely, tunneling a player because you don't like an aspect of them (their name, their charms, their character, their perks, their item) is generally accepted and not treated the same at all. Make it make sense.
The difference is that the killer is playing on his own, whereas when a survivor abandons the game, they're basically leaving their other 3 teammates in a much worse situation than if they were to be contributing to the match. These two just don't compare at all.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074488#Comment_4074488
Do you think I have anger for Lightborn?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LSDB54YDLK2X/screenshot-20260423-002313.jpg
It's an unfair perk. That's why I use it. It's one of two anti-item perks you can choose based on what you see in the lobby, and get likely value. What are you going to do about toolboxes? Bring regress? You probably are already doing that. A medkit? Not really worth changing anyting for. Keys? Oh no they can open chests fast! Fog vials? Who even cares? Maps? Now you know there'll be a boon totem. Free info, no need to counter. But flashlights are just deleted. You also get free aura read for doing absolutely nothing. And again, it's not just items. Flashbang and Blast Mine are perks. If someone has a build devoted solely to blinds you delete the whole thing with one perk.
In reality it benefits the survivor side by not having two survivors in chase.
This honestly reads like satire. "I'm helping you be better at the game by choosing how you'll play. You're welcome." Use the perk, don't use it, I don't care, but accept that it's unfair.
imo, Lightborn is overrated. The moment survivors notice a killer has it, if they have proper game knowledge, they adapt by stopping aggressive plays and just doing gens, which is safer and more efficient than constantly orbiting the killer for a save. Just because their build was countered by the perk that doesn't mean they'll be useless for the trial, a 4-perks focused build entirely on flashlight blinding is little excessive, its like going 4-perk heal build and complaining you're against Bubba, Plague or Legion.
Also, Blast Mine still stuns killers with Lightborn, they just don't get blinded, which makes no difference because no survivor will be near a Blast Mine once it goes off. That perk still gets full value regardless of Lightborn or not. -
@100PercentBPMain said:
replay is essential for self improvement, learning and growth.
we have to rely on ttvs to see our own gameplay and I don't like that. bless those who stream and don't hide their VODs or lock them behind paywall
Helps exposing cheaters too.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073931#Comment_4073931
We also have to ask ourselves what is more likely—that BHVR add a bunch of numbers buffs/nerfs or implement an entirely new anti-cheat and devote more resources to processing reports?
We all grown used to BHVR being horrible at managing the game, I get it. But ignoring cheaters is the rock bottom of game discussion or management, it just shows how de-attached both players or devs are if that's what the topic amounts to.
They shouldn't make balance changes because of people who can literally bend the rules and make the game whatever they want over what is supposed to be. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073906#Comment_4073906
The issue is that it will never be enough. Cheating will always be there. So might as well start accounting for it. It's similar to DCs. They really thought they could get rid of them and now we have a system that is functionally identical but it's no longer against the rules to talk about or advocate for.
There is always cheaters, that doesn't mean the balance of the game should be affected because of it. That's literally saying they should make balance changes assuming most people will use cheats. You know how stupid that sounds? People who cheat don't care about the game's balance.
They only way anything regarding cheaters should be accounted for is how they can better their anti-cheat so that the legit players don't have their games ruined by them to begin with. -
@Shirtless_Myers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073756#Comment_4073756
You missed the reason these perks and killers should be reworked. It's because cheating increases their value, and Behavior doesn't do anything toward subtle cheating. Hyperfocus and Dead Hard can be automated to trigger perfectly for the player, and The First and Nurse both benefit the most from wallhacking. You bringing up your intended gameplay experiences is irrelevant to my comment.
What do you mean 'gameplay experiences' shouldn't account for balance discussions? That's the whole point of a balance discussion. Cheating should NEVER be considered as a balance discussion because its literally against TOS, blame BHVR and hold them accountable for letting cheaters plague the game for so long instead.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073821#Comment_4073821
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8B55KR8ARQEC/img-3202.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9FCQGRFS7DT6/img-3204.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GONAPMT9O6VN/img-3205.jpeg
I just type in dbd on YouTube and this what I see lol
These videos are not a critique to survivors in general but a critique to the survivors who DC on a first down or those who throw insults at the endgame chat. I can't say anything about Mr Headache, but MintSkull and QuietKills have often tried to make the distinction between the common survivor and the salt driven ones who throw the game and ruin it for their own teammates the moment something goes wrong.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065597#Comment_4065597
Breaking 3 god pallets puts you in a decent position for late game especially if the remaining gens are the ones in the area that pallets were broken in. Most m1 killers should be used to this kind of situation.
But if this was an actual match and you noticed survivors on the gens that you are chasing past you could interrupt them instead.If you're an M1 killer you can't just drop chase and go for another, specially if the survivor you were chasing was already injured. Just hitting someone again, going around the map another time and then finally getting the down would be an even bigger time waste, and another survivor could be doing another gen someplace else if you chose to defend that particular gen you threw away a chase for.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065023#Comment_4065023
Batteries isn't strong. It's haste bonus is really small and it only works for a small area around gens
Coincidentally, fast track isn't strong either. I think people really aren't considering that gaining charges on hooks is really, literally, a losing battle.
Fast track is bad for the game because it punishes killers doing their objective and because it punishes killers playing nice. That last part is most important.
I've argued for years that the game should discourage players from just making it a race to the win condition. Unfortunately, BHVR strongly disagrees. Or at least, the loudest voices disagree, and BHVR immediately caves to that minority.
At this point, I've had to accept that the devs actively want the game to be a race for faster games, with more pressure to do everyone's objective as fast as possible. I strongly disagree with that direction, but my voice falls on deaf ears here.
Personally, I think that the game needs to be slowed down, including things like limits to early tunneling, progress, healing, and regression caps, possibly base kit corrupt or even an early game collapse system. Rework most, if not all perks that impact charges, including things like gen speeds and healing speed, for example. I think the game would be more fun to encourage killers to chase survivors and focus on the pvp aspect of the game.
It's apparently far more lucrative to lean into power and scope creep. So, instead, killers spend their time admiring the furniture of hooked survivors, and/or tunneling as hard as possible while relying on perks to slow or regress gen progress. Survivors either get chased to death or sit staring at a progress bar until the first person dies and the only "interactions" until it's 1v3 are perks.
That's the big, neon lights message from them pulling 9.1 PTB instantly. They don't give one single ######### about incentivizing "fair play", if anything they're actively driving everyone toward speed running, since that's the play style that the most vocal parts of the community lives by. These are the people who "will quit if you touch their beloved play style".
That's the game BHVR is making, for better or worse. I think it could be a much better game than that, and has been in the past, but this is what drives their decisions these days, and the direction they keep pushing toward.
Coincidentally, fast track isn't strong either. I think people really aren't considering that gaining charges on hooks is really, literally, a losing battle.
This just isn't true. Until a survivor is removed from the match, the survivor team is still at full force, doesn't matter if they have two hook states or none. It doesn't help perks like Do No Harm or Dead Hard just make survivor even stronger for being hooked, or even just removing hook states entirely with Shoulder the Burden. Fast Track at its strongest would be against killer who spread hook and its now down to its final gens that are about to get absolutely blasted by a maxed Fast Track from other survivors, it doesn't even need to be a SWF, just enough survivors running the perk at the same time.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
one of my biggest wishes and then a big sister legendary skin for maybe spirit since they are so fast. or for skull merchant since they basically look the same
If they make the killer a Big Daddy (which is the obvious choice), I don't think they would be able to make a Big Sister skin since the difference is size would be notable. We could get something like the Alpha Series or even maybe a smaller version of Songbird inspired on the older concept art for Infinite like the Mothman.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062393#Comment_4062393
Maybe there aren't mains anymore. But that's what I'm talking about. The more their identities are stripped, the more they do appeal to a new crowd. But that new crowd is likely to move on from them as soon as the next broken Killer drops. It's what we see every new chapter.
At the core of the issue, the game is in an identity crisis. And like I said, at the end of the day these decisions appeal to nobody.
Not when that identity is about being in the bottom of the barrel. Trapper is known for his long setup time and traps, but its also for that reason that he sucks. Unless the old crowd only cares about playing a very weak killer with outdated mechanics, then I don't see how a rework would harm their identity as long you can take that setup playstyle and work into something effective and fun.
The only killer I know whose identity is about being a challenging killer is Ghostface, who should have gotten buffs like moving faster on Night Shroud and not being revealed by downed or hooked survivors long ago. Most people I know how play Ghostface know that there are better options, but like how careful they have to be on stealth, at least on the opinions I heard. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062321#Comment_4062321
OK but if we look outside of the box, it's obvious that some PVPs are designed to be more causal than others. DBD's win conditions are vague at best, for instance. The model they've been going off of for a while now involves making minimal changes to that model while adding in a level of responsibility you'd expect from an Esport. Naturally that's very unstable.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062330#Comment_4062330
But how many Trapper mains want him changed completely versus buffs like being able to hold more traps at once? If he suddenly became a dash Killer, that would attract a new audience but likely isolate his existing one.
Freddy is a good example too. He has been changed so dramatically since his first iteration than he's kind of for nobody now. Doesn't seem to offer the experience that his previous mains want, while also not being as powerful as any given new release Killer.
Trapper has been getting numerous buffs since his inception, from putting traps on the floor way faster than on release, to his traps not being broken by toolboxes anymore. Even when equipping his best addons Trapper becomes only a decent killer at best. There are no hardcore Trapper mains like you're talking about.
And Freddy has always been a bit of a nobody, his rework didn't make him any more popular but at least it made him more playable. I am not sure why would anyone want him reverted back to his original state either. -
@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062281#Comment_4062281
like I said I’m not saying they were perfect but every YT which I can’t name threw huge tantrums and said killer and dbd will die and BHVR has killed dbd
All they had to do was just make it so if you kill a survivor before 4 hooks the other 3 gain a 25% repair speed bonus. You can still kick and block gens but since you tunneled early your punished and the bonuses would be disabled
Bam perfect with some minor improvements
But nope all the “people better than BHVR” grifted and made so many clickbait grrr BHVR bad BHVR no good videos all from the whiny killer mains who are Stuck in 2017
The problem is that they didn't went with the minor improvements route, but instead they overblown some of the slugging and tunneling bonuses which were basically multiple free basekit perks rewarding survivors for getting tunnelled, hooked or even killed. They tried to reduce slugging and camping simply by making it impossible to do so and failed, and the bonuses for not doing those playstyles benefited the S-tiers more that everyone hates than the weaker killers that needed help.
If anything, it was and still is BHVR's inability to balance both sides properly that caused the Health Operation's downfall. -
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062269#Comment_4062269
They've backed themselves into a corner there. Legacy content has a strong following of players that like them as they are. Buffing them or nerfing them strips those elements of their identity. The shift to more competitive play has made it so that everything is viewed through that lens and yet nothing seems to be getting better.
That's not entirely true, Trapper is probably is one of the most popular killers that gets requested for a rework, I don't know anyone who would want him to stay the way it is. The same thing was true for Freddy.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061412#Comment_4061412
This is why the gameplay has to change on a fundamental level. When everything has been optimized out of the game, and we are stuck in the same monotone gameplay loop, it is time to change how the game is played.
I wish they brought the blood gens back, but with the perks actually working on them this time and being more properly balanced. I felt it was a fun way to spice up survivor gameplay even if they were easy to do. But it was so negatively recieved that it seems like that they ditched that idea entirely.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061493#Comment_4061493
So you want sprint burst removed then? How is that fair for survivor players? Increasing exhaustion to 60 seconds for everyone that gets sprint burst is more than enough…
People will use Escapist very selfishly, they'll often get in a difficult loop and when the killer is about to hit them, they'll activate it and run away to force them to waste even more time. The other scenario is that killers like Wraith or Ghostface will successfully corner a survivor with their stealth, but they'll activate Escapist and manage to run into a safe tile. Same goes for killers like Wesker or Chucky who are about to corner someone with their dash, but just use Escapist to escape. Its a instant win button for as little effort as possible on a game mode where every second counts for killers.
This is not Sprint Burst, this is a super cracked version of Dramaturgy. I want it to work like before where you had to actually manage your dash like a proper Sprint Burst like you do in 1v4. -
@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061481#Comment_4061481
Increase exhaustion to 60 seconds - sprint burst is off cooldown way too frequently
Did you read the entire post?
Yeah, I did, and its a placebo. That won't do anything with the fact you can just press a button and evade a killer's hit completely. I'll take a 20-30 exhaustion with the Sprint Burst working like before, without the ability to just press a button and deny a hit because its harmful design to the weaker killers.
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Some survivors equipping costmetics or charms you can see from far away or inside things like fog vials does not help their case either.
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No mention of the on-demand Sprint Burst nor Medics healing mid-chase. Your requests for balance changes feel too one sided, it would just make killer feel even more difficult to play with.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061426#Comment_4061426
The anti-go next system still exists and will punish a Survivor for being tunneled out too quickly. It's rare but it does happen. The current DC system, which effects everybody but was put in place largely because of Survivor, is unchanged too. The proposed changes to Survivor perks from the anti-camp/tunnel/slug mechanics were also kept while those respective mechanics did not.
Pallets were also reverted, but I left that out because it's a change nobody wanted and it was obvious it was going to be undone the moment it was introduced.
What survivor perks are we talking about here? Because Breakdown, Wicked, Tenacity and Conviction were all reverted back to their original states when they gave up on the anti-changes. Everything else you listed is not a survivor nerf, except the pallet density, but that's another can of worms.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061408#Comment_4061408
That was a pivot. The answer is that the nerfs proposed to Survivors in 2025 were kept, while a patch that addressed pain points that have persisted for a decade but also affected Killer weren't even given a chance to be experienced.
The only nerfs I can recall on top of my head were the Styptic Agent and Anti-Hemorrage Syringe nerfs and while I am on the belief that being able to heal mid-chase or just gain a 5 endurance mid-chase had to go, mostly because it affected slower or M1 killers more, I 100% agree that the effects they gave them instead are horrible and should have been looked at long ago. I don't remember anything else they nerfed.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061400#Comment_4061400
And of the changes of 2025, which ones went live and which ones did not? Because I remember an entire PTB of anti-go next and then a patch that actively banned Survivors from the game for playing normally, while the anti-tunnel/camp/slug mechanic lasted 2 days in the PTB before it was pulled.
The anti-go next preventions were created to stop survivors from bailing out on other survivors at the beginning of a trial by killing themselves on their first hook. At the very least it brought the upside of stopping survivors from killing themselves on the first hook, which is a well recieved kept change for both sides.
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@UnicornMedal said:
In my opinion, BHVR knows best and they will always know best. Our opinions have been "passed along" for years, but it's been clear that we're rarely heard unless we cause a huge backlash or a PR nightmare erupts. How we can go a decade still BEGGING for year 1 changes to be made while staff (who should be our representatives) always appear to be confused as we do is beyond me. Any time there's a glimmer of hope on the horizon that some positive shift will occur, we're met with empty promises.
Right now, Killer is the main concern and anything we have to say about that simply does not matter. 2025 made that crystal clear.
This is the biggest lie you could have told. The entirety of 2025 was huge failure because they were trying to promote their anti-changes while also offering nothing for killer in return.
They tried to address tunneling and slugging while completely ignoring genrushing and 4-man sabosquads metas, with the only thing they were going to be offering killers were the unique hook benefits, which by the end of their attempt of a health update, they were planning on only giving Bloodlust and Bloodpoints, two completely useless things for a trial. They wanted to give survivors free unhooks, free unbreakables, free stealth and endurance for being unhooked, and all the while locking the ability to regress gens if killers played in a certain way. All the while the pallet density update was happening in the background, and they were also planning on nerfing the best killer perks too. It has barely been a year and everyone is already forgetting this mess.
These changes didn't go live because BHVR was too creatively bankrupt to think of any benefits for killer, they were going to give numerous basekit benefits to one side while only offering brownie points to the other. It was a joke and going to be a completely one sided update. -
@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061237#Comment_4061237
Why do you assume they are 'survivor only' players? This is literally just hyperbole to me. People can, in fact, play both sides and see glaring issues. Then they are simply told 'play both sides or you dont matter'. Pretty terrible take also, but to each their own.
Read the OP again, it's us vs them written all over it, there is nothing else to project.
And you know and understand this. Still, you chose to respond as such. Of course its been going on then last 10 years, people refuse to be a change. Everyone else is, so why can't I be a jerk? Interesting choices, but eh. I feel there's better options. No a judgement, honestly. I appreciate the candor. :)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061238#Comment_4061238
I think we agree that 4 minutes is pretty bad game design. If this wasn't a thing, we wouldn't have issues like this… maybe.
Anyway, I agree with that. What I don't agree with is 'People slug to the 4k because they want the full victory against the survivors, just like survivors who wait by the gate (besides the more altruistic reasons) just want to rub it on the killer's face instead of just leaving when they already won.'
I've have numerous players say they enjoy slugging because it speeds the game up. If everyone is down/hooked, etc… its abandon time. This mindset is an issue, imo. Maybe not to everyone, but I'd like to see BHVR gut some silly things still in the game. Also, wanting a 'complete victory' is not the same as 'survivors rubbing a win in your face.' The things you put next to one another as equivalent is beyond me.
I've have numerous players say they enjoy slugging because it speeds the game up. If everyone is down/hooked, etc… its abandon time. This mindset is an issue, imo.
But that's not… the problem… being talked about, no one brought that up. Its not the 4-man slug. Its when there's 2 survivors left, one is left slugging when the other is running for his life, taking the time to loop. One of them is just forced to sit there waiting for the match to be over. A killer trying to 4-man slug can lead to this, but that's different because there's still the chance of a comeback. I don't know anyone who wants to sit by while the other survivor is taking its time and looping when there are 3 gens left and your other two teammates are dead.Also, wanting a 'complete victory' is not the same as 'survivors rubbing a win in your face.' The things you put next to one another as equivalent is beyond me.
Killer's closest equivalent for waiting on a gate to t-bag is to get the 4k, that was different before abandons existed but not anymore. The moment the last survivor is down, everyone leaves immediatly. No stalling, no endgame chat, not even the Mori. So they go for the 4k because its the only way they can also rub on a survivor's face.
I don't like either of those things, to wait by the gate or go for the 4k, or have to deal with the consequences of being in the losing side of either of those things, but you won't see me coming here on the forums asking BHVR to remove it because I felt bad about, yet someone else complains calling out the devs that one side is making the game annoying for them, they just tend forget the same equal issue happening on the other side that causes the problem they're complaining about. Examples of that are genrush meta vs quad-regression meta. Everyone using Blight & Nurse vs Everyone using Exhaustion & Windows. -
@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061231#Comment_4061231
And some people dont realize what they're saying.
What's the reaction a when a killer are forced to sit through the endgame collapse because a survivor felt like trolling and decided to hide somewhere using plot-twist during endgame?
Well, if this is the issue, it seems you dislike having your time wasted at the end of the game. This is fair and I totally agree. Lets see you're solution to this problem of wasting time.
They now slug for the 4k because they don't want to deal with those things.
Oh! Great solution! Waste MORE time! Brilliant! So, wasting time is fine, as long as you're in control of said time wasting. Got it.
Some people really don't realize why these things happen to begin with.
Couldn't agree with you more.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061232#Comment_4061232
And this is the taint that keeps to toxicity alive. Nice work! But, again you're logic is just full of holes.
They do understand it, they just don't care. They never play as the killer, so they believe the killer is there just to entertain them. Just read how the OP post is written, the style says it all. The best we can do is to return the favor and intentionally use all the "mean tactics" they complain about here. I didn't usually slug for 4k, but now I will do it more often, thanks to the OP.
Was gonna pick it apart, but the paragraph as a whole is pretty childish levels of spite for spite's sake. You have no idea what others are thinking, you are merely projecting the us vs them because its fun! 'The best we can do' lol. This is pretty low to everyone else if you think your solution is 'the best we can do.'
Now you're just becoming childish and passive-aggressive yourself. People slug to the 4k because they want the full victory against the survivors, just like survivors who wait by the gate (besides the more altruistic reasons) just want to rub it on the killer's face instead of just leaving when they already won.
Both lead to an already decided game being extended beyond it should and the respective frustration on either side, but you failed to understand that so I hope this gives better insight on the root of the problem how it can't exactly just be taken out as easily. Its not just because it wastes time, I am sure any killer or survivor players wouldn't mind playing 4 more minutes if it meant that they won, but rather that 4 more minutes are put into the game when its already over. -
@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061223#Comment_4061223
This. We will all just need to continue complaining and suck it up. Gotta pull up ye ol pants by the straps.
However, even if it isn't an equivalent comparison, the 'other side' will always have to have something too. Its like going to a friend's birthday party and crying because you didn't get a present too. Its a little childish, both sides, but ah, we are only human.
I am pointing that out because what happens on one side directly affects the other. What's the reaction a when a killer are forced to sit through the endgame collapse because a survivor felt like trolling and decided to hide somewhere using plot-twist during endgame? They now slug for the 4k because they don't want to deal with those things. Some people really don't realize why these things happen to begin with.
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When I play killer I don't like having to wait at the endgame collapse for the survivor to leave the gate or jump into the hatch, and its something that happens almost every lost game. I guess we just have to learn to deal with each oppositions savoring their victory.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061159#Comment_4061159
Is DBD fps game? The characters we talk about that will be effected by this the most (like huntress) were vreated in time when this wasnt even as addon in the game and as fas ras i know the first crosshair addon is on trickster before him only few killers got something simular but i wouldnt call it crosshair more like trajectory indicator of your power like in seige for nades how will the projectile of your power go and totaly first was nurse but for her its more like where your character will end up but we can count it as some type of crosshair too because nurse is the weapon.
Having the primar play for ranged characters made without any crosshair for their range power (huntress) was intentional choice from devs and giving now this character some crosshair will lover skill because its making multiple things easier which is lowering standarts and thats loosening up skill. You backing by FPS games but is DBD FPS game? Even flashlights have no crosshair and only one thing was (if we dont count some late addons) on clown when you were effected by his purple gas (he had only purple back than and it already existed) where you got for those few seconds small dot in middle of your screen because some people went dizzy when they were blind by his power effect but thats gone, you say cant compare it well this now requires real sence and precision and that will be way less demanding with crosshair.
You're not shooting guns, except for Slinger, but all mechanics related to a first person game follows. Your cameras is in first person, you have a weapon, you aim and shoot. You can aim, you can strafe, you can adjust FOV, even hit indicators exist like with Huntress, Trickster or Springtrap. All the aspects of a first person game are there, except the crosshair, that's locked behind a addon slot and resource. Its not a crutch, its a tool prevalent and necessary in any game that has these first person mechanics and its silly to say that people who use these tools are just not skilled enough. If people would rather not use it, it should be their choice.
And aiming a flashlight, aside having the light trail you can use for aiming, is a close ranged tool meant only to be used when the killer is locked in animation. That's a far cry from having to aim and hit a survivor who has full range of movement at a far away distance, like Huntress. -
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061147#Comment_4061147
Its less skilled because its way easier to get hits like you think when somethink is made easier its not becoming less skilled?
If they add it or not Idc but thing is there is huge difference when you must position yout aim by just instacnt and muscle memeory of where your crosshair is (middle of the screen) compare to line just dot or nay crosshair with target I think its pretty huge difference like hitting noscope vs scope hit. As for how it will help, yeah it will help on many characters so Im not against it but I dont think it will make all hits more "skilled" as they are now without crosshair but everyone is entitled to theirs oppinion so i leave this on you to decide what you think (as for me having something easier is less skilled like running 10 meters uphill sompare to run 100 meters to on straigh surface is pretty solid difference in dificulty and required effort as it is hitting something with crosshair or without it especialy on longer distance).
Having a crosshair is no different than buffering inputs or having the progress bar on skills to tell you when your skill is ready so that you can properly time it. Its just standard tools present in a generations of first person games, telling where and how your skill is going to be used as opposed to guessing it in hopes you get it right at the heat of the moment. It feels disingenous to call someone less skilled for using something that already exists in game but locked behind resources, and then saying that not using it is the 'skilled' way to do it.
Even the primitive FPS like Wolfenstein 3D or Doom used clever game design to tell you where your weapons are going to be firing towards, or just switched to having crosshairs for a reason. You can't compare it to a physical activity that requires no real sense of precision. -
@Abbzy said:
Tbh one of the skill part in DBD is that on range killers you dont have crosshair and you must have muscle memory in your head and that skill to aim with them like huntress main with dot isnt huntress main for me unless he does only orbitals or quick shots (instantly throwing hatchets without holding them). Slinger has iron sights on his gun but his projectile doesnt behave like bullet so he needs to memory for distancing for hitting his shots.
If they make it as feature (adding crosshair) than ok but all the respect I have for things like huntress snipes comes from the fact that they must do it without crosshair (they can have it with use of program or some monitors have this option build in). In these days everything that comes with skill and muscle memory is just changed and put away it seems but if they add it I wont be horrified like it will help a lot on every range killer (except slinger who cant quick scope and it will only help you like very very little on him) but on some dash ones like wesker where you will be able to more easily see the center in which path your dash goes and things like skini berts and long grabs will be way easier.
I still dont think it will help atronomicaly new players because survivors have specific hitbox and projectiles from killers too like huntress hatchet looks like small axe but its in textures a bigger ball (thats why she hits oyu when you are behind corner and your back is sticking a little because survivors hitbox is slighly behind them so thats why experienced killers aim with hatchets on their butt and back that on their head or fron part like as trickster its better to aim for feet than survivors body whn he runs infront of you and tries to doge side to side), it will help them but not super crazy but if they will make my life easier because majority of community wants it (this feature with crosshair in game options) I not against it.
Having a crosshair doesn't make someone any less skilled. You probably can't even tell what players use crosshairs or not because it may not appear in any public videos due the nature of external crosshairs not appearing in recordings, but plenty of well known players (CoconutRTS for example whose entire content is about Huntress) will not hide the fact that they use one.
At the very least it would be a huge help for console players given aiming on a controller is already difficult and they have no access to external options. -
@CatManThree said:
I feel like in some cases it would be kind of distracting or become a crutch to people, but it would be nice to have as a togglable option in the settings at least. Would make Huntress and Springtrap SO much easier to get better at. Unknown too, although I imagine adding something for it would be really buggy.
Shouldn't be a thing on Nurse though considering how buggy it is for her.Crosshairs are a standard function for almost every game that requires aiming and its stupid you have to waste an addon slot and resource just to use one that may not be entirely accurate. I just use an external crosshair and that alone made using ranged killers so much more fun to use. Xhair for ReShade has a really good one where you can configure to only appear if you press M2, perfect for DBD.