Iron_Cutlass
Iron_Cutlass
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@Lectussy said:
Opression, Surveillance, nowhere to hide and coup de grace.
Im trying to make fun and not overly used meta perks (pop,corrupt,pain res,deadlock) into a build that can win games. although nowhere to hide is used a lot still
I had games before on chaos shuffle where coup de grace really helped confirming the hits or downs on survivors that are greedy or waiting on pallets or windows because they dont expect that long basic attack lunge like a tier 3 myers. I know you should be good in shredding but I just want to try this out, it will be like demo has another shred.
Ill test this build out and I will share my results. I also chose oppression and coup de grace to save blood points cause they are from the same killer.
As a Demo main; it's alright, though Id normally go for something else. Surveillance, Hex: Ruin, Surge, and Dissolution/Enduring is normally my go-to.
- Surveillance and Hex: Ruin provide information, as expected. Portals can force Survivors off a Generator early which is just free regression.
- Surge provides a back up for Hex: Ruin and since Surge procs on M1s, you can use your M2 to control when and where you get the regression/information.
- Dissolution is just a nice pick on Demo since you force Survivors into respecting pallet vaults a bit more, which makes Shred easier to hit, also a lot of Survivors dont look at the bottom right for Dissolution. Enduring is another good pick since you sometimes Shred through a pallet, get stunned, and end up on the same side as the Survivor, so Enduring gives you a window to hit the Survivor.
I hate how I still sometimes write "Surge" as "Jolt".
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@SaltyNooty said:
Y'know, it's been a while since I made a discussion post and I'm generally surprised that this HASN'T be suggested, or perhaps, it has and was simply shoved to the darkness like many other posts have; but here's my take to fix the up-tick in the tunneling situation.
We used the hindered status that's mainly there to affect survivors of killers.
What I mean by this is, let's say that a survivor gets unhooked either by themselves or by others and the killer immediately 180s and begins to hound after them, the moment the killer enters chase with the survivor being tunneled, they're hit with a 25% hindered status for the duration of the chase.
They won't gain bloodlust and will continue to hold the 25% hindered status till they look for another survivor; essentially forcing the chase to become an extremely long-winded loop around the map if the killer chooses to HARD commit to attempting to tunnel out this survivor for whatever reason they could possibly have.
- To further discourage this, after the killer leaves chase; the effect will persist for about 3 seconds.- Additionally, the ability will remain active as long as the survivor is within 36 meters of the killers range.
- Additionally, if the survivor becomes fully healed by any means with a perk; it deactivates.
To discourage SWFS from abusing this ability, this particular base-kit ability persists for about 8 seconds after getting off hook; AND taking a protection hit/committing conscious actions like doing gens, healing, unhooking, unlocking, opening; will cancel the effects immediately.
This can (Debatably) turn off during endgame just so killers have a chance at getting a kill if it turns out to be a situation where they DO tunnel a surv off the hook during EG, which is the only valid time to me.
The entire POINT of this is to discourage tunneling, not for it to be abused;- Essentially, this covers attempting to work around the system by leaving chase and then immediately 180'd around to chase the survivor, because people would do that IMMEDIATELY. (Mostly by forcing the killer to leave the survivor COMPLETELY for the effect to go away, not proxy camping them.)
- This also covers SWFS trying to take advantage of this because unless they INTENTIONALLY take chase while someone else is being chased; there is absolutely nothing they can do to abuse it. (Though, I'm certain they'll find a way to do it.)
Now, the alternative to this is that we dock their BP. (Because let's be real, Killers will most certainly object to the fact that tunneling would hold no value; which is the POINT and PURPOSE, to discourage killers from resorting to tunneling.)
Honest thoughts on this? I think it's something that could work and get tweaked properly.
To discourage SWFS from abusing this ability, this particular base-kit ability persists for about 8 seconds after getting off hook; AND taking a protection hit/committing conscious actions like doing gens, healing, unhooking, unlocking, opening; will cancel the effects immediately.
It's 25% Hindered. The Killer, even at 115% movement speed, is moving slower than the Survivor. I dont think you understand how impactful 25% Hindered even is, for reference, 20% Hindered is from Champion of Light, which is considered a really good distance based perk.
The unhooked Survivor wouldnt even need to take a hit for their teammate since the Killer is moving way slower than they are anyways, nor would the Killer be able to escape this effect since the Survivor would be moving faster than they can. The Killer could be permanently stuck with the 25% Hindered the entire match, with literally no way of catching up whatsoever, since "they cannot gain Bloodlust".
I dont even tunnel in my matches but sometimes Survivors do unhook close to me due to small maps or Survivors running into teammates that are unhooking, Id be punished just by accidentally looking their way and starting a chase.
To put it bluntly, this is a horrible idea.
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@OrangeBear said:
It does not combine with lethal pursuer? It doesn't reveal for a duration.
Some perks, like Awakened Awareness, can be modified by Lethal Pursuer to have 2 seconds of lingering Aura Reading, since they were originally going to have a lingering effect but it got changed to 0 seconds in the code instead of outright being removed.
This being said, Weave Attunement is not one of those perks. Lethal Pursuer does nothing to it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
i don't think people care about the effect. it is weak. Best to just ignore it.
I disagree.
It is a perk that can turn any Skill Check into a Great Skill Check in terms of progression bonus (+1% to +3%), and Great Skill Checks get further boosted progression (+2% to +4%), which is really underrated. Keep in mind that this progression applies to not just Generators, but also to healing (+1% to +3% for Good Skill Checks, +4% to +6% for Great Skill Checks; can be further extended with certain Medkit addons).
Not only that, but the fact that you can apply it to the entire team is really amazing; the only downside is that the perk is new and a lot of people dont really understand what it does or how much value you can get from it.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z48AZ7PF769O/image.png
- Activate Invocation first to make all gens -10%.
- Then since you are now injured forever, this activates +10% extra skillcheck chance with just small negative effect of having skillchecks bit harder but not a big deal.
- Now you probably allready have few stacks of Stake Out and you will continue earning them for the whole match for extra benefit whenever you hit a skillchecks.
- Activate bard perk to get extra bonus for all skillchecks.
- Enjoy doing gens fast!
You are better off trading out Invocation: Weaving Spiders for a Toolbox with Built To Last (Best Burst Progression), Prove Thyself (pairs with Bardic Inspiration), or Resilience (pairs with Deadline).
The Progression from Weaving Spiders it not bad but being Broken the entire match is such a horrible downside to the perk that makes it not worth running; for a Gen-Rushing build, it will just likely result in you being tunneled since you cant be healed, your perks are meaningless in chase, and you have no anti-tunnel.
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@Marioneo said:
Time for some wacky Anti-Survivor propaganda! Since were on the path to never have infinites such as 3 gen kicking stalling its time survivors receive the same if you recall the miserable circle of healing meta where survivors could infinity reset both themselves and boons thats where the healing limit kicks in each survivor gets 6 health states a match after you reach the maximum you become broken for the rest of the match (Warning perks and killers that inflict deep wounds add to the maximum limit). The new mechanic we can bring back old COH and make medkits strong again
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPvVY34WEAAxwD_?format=png&name=small
This is not a good idea since we would go back to another 3-Gen meta.
Killer would just run a bunch of kick regression perks, go from Generator to Generator, tag Survivors, and just win with nothing the Survivors can do since they would be forced to eventually become broken. And with 3-Gen set-ups like the one on Haddonfield or Dead Dawg, it would be really awful to go against.
Also having "Deep Wounds" count towards it would:
- Promote Tunneling, since past a certain point they literally wont be able to heal. Teammate that take Protection Hits will be punished by not being able to heal.
- It would actually nerf Legion since Legion can already injure Survivors quickly so healing is a waste of time in most cases, it's why Legion Pin is such a bad addon, you want Survivors to heal since you undo it so easily.
Also I think people forget that Dead by Daylight is an asymmetrical game, meaning that either side has to be balanced differently. Im tired of people treating it like Survivor and Killer need the same restrictions or equivalents solely off the basis of "one side has it, therefore the other should."
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/417114/how-to-counter-weave-attunement
Proper way to counter Weave Attunement: Use a singular brain cell and 99 your item instead of using all of it😂😂
You could also just pick up the dropped items and move them to the edge of the map or to an out-of-the-way location.
You do become Oblivious for doing that, but you can do it for items that your teammates drop, not just your own, so in SoloQ it can be helpful to know.
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Ive gone against Weave Attunement and it honestly isnt even that bad, even with Franklins.
The easiest counter to it is just picking up the item and moving it to an out-of-the-way location so they get no Aura Reading value.
Boon: Shadow Step is also pretty decent as well since it provides a massive area that just outright blocks Aura Reading (with the added benefit of removing Scratchmarks).
Alternative, you could just… idk, not bring an item. I know the Anniversary items are cool but I normally save them up anyways due to their limited supply once the event ends, and a lot of people normally hoard them anyways.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/417010/dbd-is-a-party-game-but-is-it
A "Party Game", in more modern definitions, is used to refer to a multiplayer (online or in-person) game that normally consisting of a series of short minigames, that can easily be played within a social setting.When I think of a Party Game, I usually think of Jackbox Games or Mario PartyIf we're talking argument by definition, then DbD has never met the definition. Like not even in the vicinity, which means people using the term probably mean something else by it.
To me, party games have a lot of randomness. They can still have a lot of skill elements, but everyone can have a shot in a party game. That's what I think the definition more goes towards. Due to perk setups / map draws one side can have a huge advantage over the other.
But that's okay. The variety and randomness are part of the fun.
"Party games have a lot of randomness"
Are Rogue-likes suddenly now considered Party Games? No, they are their own game genre but do have elements that less skill expression provide the most benefit, like in Risk of Rain 2 or Slay the Spire.
Are FPS Games suddenly Party Games for having a random map pool and a wide variety of weapons and players? No, definitely not, and a lot of them have SBMM to try and put players of equal skill level against one another.
Are Card Games suddenly Party Games because your starting hand is random and your opponents and their deck different every time? No, in fact Card Games are often really competitive, just look at Pokemon or YuGiOh.
RNG and randomness does not automatically make it a Party Game. DBD does have RNG, but it still has a large amount of room for skill expression to show, BHVR even tried to implement Skill Based Matchmaking in an attempt to keep experienced players away from new players, which shows that skill expression at least means something.
In DBD, throw a brand new player at someone with thousands of hours, they will lose, there is no arguing. In a Party Game (like Mario Party), throw a brand new player at someone with thousands of hours, the brand new player can still probably win through luck.
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@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737975#Comment_3737975
I've seen it happen like once or twice but the core issue is probably what you pointed out where people aren't going to rage at their friends probably.
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if Mario Party was an online game and had voice chat. I'd be willing to bet you'd see it happen much more often.
Well, pardon me then.
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@Yharwick said:
Okay but like people will rage over Mario Party too lol.
Honestly, Ive never seen this happen. Like I have played Mario Party with friends and it is normally really, really chill.
Ive heard people get upset over it but Ive never actually seen it myself, Idk if that makes me lucky or not or something.
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I will not take the Hellshire Iron and Obsidian Goblet slander.
Hellshire Iron is an addon that shines with perks that provide Undetectable, since it leads to more confusion between Survivors. In my opinion, it is best with Tinkerer, since Survivors wont be able to tell the difference between a Hellshire Iron proc and a Tinkerer proc. And Undetectable in general can just throw off Survivors since it is unexpected, just hit them, lose your Terror Radius, pretend to leave, and then run back into them, I get plenty of free downs even against some pretty experienced players doing it.
Obsidian Goblet definitely isnt the best, but it does have good application, since you can place your trails down in loops, it can provide some mindgaming potential. And since it is pretty much acting like Insidious but faster, it can also be used to camp an area (good with Dragon's Grip) with basically no downsides. Also since Pyramid Head has barely any good addons, Obsidian Goblet is not that bad compared to the competition.
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@fussy said:
Agree on first point, but about second point: pretty sure you give hit if validation canceled grab. They changed it few years ago.
I still sometimes lose out on hits as a result of Grab Validation, it's not as common as it use to be but it still does happen nonetheless. I wouldnt have mentioned it if it still wasnt an issue.
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You can find a lot of character lore inside the previous and current Tome entries (requirement is to complete character challenges). There is also the Game Manual which contains a lot of the game's earlier references to lore (Benedict Baker, Vigo, etc.).
There are also events which have limited time challenges that contain lore as well, though since they are only available for a limited time, they have been archived by the community and can be found on the DBD Wiki. This is one of the few times you actually have to get information from outside of the game.
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The Lullaby mechanic will always play independently from the Terror Radius mechanic, meaning it will always play.
Freddy's power applies the Oblivious status effect to Survivors, a status effect which prevents them from hearing the Terror Radius, and they are still able to hear the Lullaby, so it would naturally make sense for the Undetectable status effect to do the same.
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You can use it if the Exit Gate is not fully opened since all you need is the interact prompt from the Exit Gate switch to use it.
If the Exit Gate is opened, you cannot use Mirrored Illusion on it, or if Mirror Illusion was already applied to that Exit Gate switch, it will be removed.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736919#Comment_3736919
how would it be the most outlandish thing, the game has bots so they use the bots on releases to smooth out queue times since a lot of people all try and play the new killer at once
You can very clearly tell the difference between a real player and a bot based on how they move and reaction.
Having Killers/Survivors who are not good at the game does not automatically mean they are bots, it just means they are not experienced enough to play well.
Likewise, hours dont matter too much either, some people use alternate accounts or pick up on the game faster than others. One of my friends with less than a thousand hours picked up the game faster than I did in my first two-thousand hours, so hours does not really matter.
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I will give you credit, for a DBD conspiracy theory, this is not only the most outlandish things Ive heard but probably the funniest thing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736884#Comment_3736884
So, it should be acknowledged: This is still a different argument to the one I was responding to initially, which is the point of my putting it in the list to begin with. When that particular complaint is based on anything that isn't thoughtless surface-level irritation, the problem people actually have isn't the thing they say.
But, to address that argument too, I alllmmooost agree? I mostly don't agree because, frankly, most of what she does is necessary for how her power functions, and I mean that from the perspective of playing against her, too. She needs the Haste, the Hindered, and the injury at bare minimum in order for dodging drone beams to be something survivors are pushed into doing.
The only real exception to her power just, being a pretty straightforward "dodge this or you get hit with predictable status effects", would be the Deep Wound, which I think is kind of an annoyance that doesn't need to be there. The stuff you're actually forced to deal with otherwise is just… Undetectable. One status effect you're actually forced to deal with is not a large number. Everything else you're thinking about is the penalty for failing to counter her, not something you're forced to deal with no matter what.
Which, isn't that how powers are generally supposed to work? You take the action to counter it, and avoid the effects that it has? You don't usually have a choice in whether or not to engage with the effects, you just have the opportunity to avoid them to begin with.
This is still a different argument to the one I was responding to initially
Pardon me for that, Ive kind of been flip flopping around but it's moreso that I just have multiple issues with the post, it's not just one specific thing.
- The original comparison between Wesker and Skull Merchant was kind of bad in my opinion, since Skull Merchant just has more going on in terms of bloat, which I felt was originally left out, it was also just ignoring the conditions at which such effects happen.
- But also I wanted to address other aspects of your argument, I did this through follow up replies instead of editing the original post to include these arguments. This is my mistake and I apologize for any confusion it might have caused.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736873#Comment_3736873
I'm not sure what the point of your overall reply is here, if you agree that it isn't the number of effects?
Like, I don't mean to be rude, but you're repeating my point back to me. The problem isn't, and can't be, HOW MANY effects she has. The problem must, for the people who say this, be HOW those effects are used. That's the entire argument being made in the section you're responding to, I'm not ignoring anything or removing any nuance. I'm making that argument.
My point is that I both agree and disagree; Sorry for my wording, Im just having a hard time trying to explain this.
It's not solely because the Skull Merchant has a large amount of effects, nor is it the fact that players are forced to engage with some effects; it is the the fact that players are forced to engage with a large amount of effects. To put it as bluntly as possible, it's not solely either aspect, it is both aspects put together that people have an issue with.
Think about it like this:
- Take a Killer like Plague for example, you are forced to deal with the Broken status effect and the option between cleansing or not cleansing to provide her power. Being forced to engage with the Broken status effect is not an issue, since it's only a small thing to deal with.
- Likewise, with what you mentioned, Wesker has a lot in his kit, but players are not forced to engage with aspects of his kit constantly. Im not constantly forced to engage in mending from Deep Wounds, and I am given a lot of agency as to rather I want to engage in certain aspects of his power (e.g. the option to cleanse or forego infection; which after the change from 8% to 4% Hindered, is something you can actively consider now).
Skull Merchant has both, a power you are forced to engage with AND a lot of effects, not just solely one thing. It's not one moving part, but multiple moving parts coming together to form something that people do not like.
So, where I agree with you is "it is not how many effects", since on it's own, you are right. But where I disagree is ignoring that it is at least part of the issue.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736866#Comment_3736866
To address the Wesker point- it is a response to the argument that Merchant's kit is bloated specifically and cannot be taken out of that context. The point of making that comparison isn't that the two killers work similarly, it's that they do a similar NUMBER of things, but people don't call the other kit bloated.
I picked Wesker because they happened to share a surprising number of superficial similarities, making the comparison easier. My entire point in bringing it up is that people say Merchant's kit is bloated but typically, if pressed, what they mean is that they don't like how her kit uses its tools.
This is why I said not to try and argue that Wesker is better designed. The fact that you are making this argument proves that the problem isn't the NUMBER of effects Skull Merchant gets. That's the point being made.
To address the Wesker point- it is a response to the argument that
Merchant's kit is bloated specifically and cannot be taken out of that
context. The point of making that comparison isn't that the two killers
work similarly, it's that they do a similar NUMBER of things, but people
don't call the other kit bloated.To answer this as bluntly as possible, part of the reason is because of how much you interact with an aspect of that Killer's power.
With my "Wesker can apply Deep Wounds" counterpoint, being put in Deep Wounds rarely happens against Wesker, as I mentioned it took me several months to get the Crash Course achievement, and in a public match, I still have yet been put in Deep Wounds against Wesker.
Meanwhile, you compare this to Skull Merchant, and it feels like at least once every match I am forced to engage in mending from Deep Wounds, and for other (less experienced) players, they are forced to engage with that aspect of her power even more.
This is why I said not to try and argue that Wesker is better designed.
The fact that you are making this argument proves that the problem isn't
the NUMBER of effects Skull Merchant gets. That's the point being made.I mean your post also just ignores the fact that Skull Merchant can just do more?
- Wesker has a 40-meter Terror Radius, Skull Merchant as a 32-meter Terror Radius, which is a massive difference between the two, making it harder for the Wesker to sneak up on Survivors.
- Skull Merchant can also apply the Broken status effect, which Wesker cannot do basekit.
- Skull Merchant can also become Undetectable, which Wesker cannot do basekit.
I just wanted to address that real quick.
But this is where I do kind of agree with you, it's not a matter of the amount of effects in total but how often people are forced to engage with those effects. In Skull Merchant's case, she gets some buffs and the Survivor gets a lot of debuffs all at once, so you are not only forced to engage with it but the amount is inherently abundant when you are forced to engage with it.
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@jesterkind said:
There are a lot of things people like to say about Skull Merchant, and maddeningly, quite a lot of what's said is factually wrong, and even some of the stuff that isn't can be kind of misleading or misrepresented. This post isn't necessarily geared towards convincing you to like Skull Merchant, or even to stop hating her, but rather to try and make it so the discourse surrounding her is at least honest.
Fat chance, I'm aware, but maybe I'll convince some people.
I'm going to list some of the common complaints I see about Skull Merchant, and tackle each one in turn to explain why I think they aren't helpful and should probably be, like, retired. And not used anymore. Please?
1: "She takes no skill" / "She has no skill expression"
We'll start off with a pretty easy one. There are generally two things happening behind this statement, and both of them are things worth addressing. The first is that most people generally tend to not acknowledge the skill expression her kit does have, and that's typically because they don't even know it exists, so we'll start with that.
The Skull Merchant's skill expression comes in a few areas. General drone placement is important, largely for hiding them as traps but also because the nature of how they work means improper placement within a loop can make them useless, depending on what the loop in question is. There's also what some refer to as "lasertagging", which involves timing and aiming your drone placement mid-chase just right so you can instantly tag someone with a stack of Lock On as soon as the drone initialises and the beams come online.
Manually rotating the beams is a skill-expressive element of her kit as well, albeit to a lesser extent. It's also worth mentioning that she's still fundamentally an M1 killer, and you need to know how to do default M1 chases to play her well.
None of this is to convince you that Skull Merchant is cool and awesome and you should enjoy playing her. It's just to remind you that the initial statement - "she has no skill expression" - is factually false. If you mean that you don't find her skill expression compelling, you should say that instead.
The second thing happening behind this complaint is something that we're going to tackle in the next header, but it's ignoring everything a killer is capable of because they have one kind of cheesy strat they can use. This happens with other killers too, and it's just as silly there as it is here - you might as well just talk about the thing you don't like, without trying to act like there's nothing else possible for the killer to do.
2: "All she does is drop a drone at a loop and force you to leave"
I actually debated putting this one on the list, because to be fair, this strategy is annoying. I'm mostly including it because it was relevant to the previous point, but there is one thing to say about it beyond just pointing out it's not all she does.
Mostly, it is worth mentioning that she's the least offensive of the three killers that can do this. Unlike Artist and Knight, this strategy doesn't work at every loop and doesn't require you to run away immediately even on the loops it does work on. Still, it is annoying, so I'm not necessarily defending it.
I've also seen some people say that running away from the loop means you get hit straight away, unlike Knight and Artist, but, uh. I don't see how that could be true, let alone how to argue against it. If she's close enough to hit you like that, she was hitting you either way, idk what that complaint is on about. Maybe I just don't understand the complaint properly?
3: "She's uninteractive" / "She has no counterplay"
These two get to be part of the same header because they're inherently linked. There is actually quite a bit of interaction when it comes to the Skull Merchant's kit, and that comes as a direct consequence of the counterplay that she does, in fact, have. Note again that this is not an attempt to convince you that you should be having fun playing against her.
So, how do you counter Skull Merchant? This isn't an in-depth guide on that particular topic, so I'll try and keep it a little more light, but there are generally two elements to SM's counterplay: In chase, and out of chase.
In chase, the way the drone's beams work is crucial to her counterplay, and the interaction that comes from it comes from positioning yourself so the beams are blocked as much of the time as possible, and crouching/standing still to avoid the beams when you would otherwise be scanned by them. Sometimes you'll see some people saying you can't do that in chase, but you obviously can, people duck and crouch in chase all the time. It really depends on the length of the loop and how far away the killer is, and you'll forgive me if I don't find the concept of a killer's counterplay being nuanced and having a skill curve to be particularly compelling evidence towards that killer being uninteractive.
Briefly, I want to also touch on the idea that sometimes, when you crouch to dodge a beam, you get hit with an M1 instead. Again, briefly: Yeah, that's countering her. Forcing a killer like Bubba to M1 you at windows is part of his counterplay, because taking an injury to deny a better effect from the killer's power is not all that uncommon in this game. It applies to them, it applies to Skull Merchant.
Then we move on to out of chase counterplay, which revolves around knowing which drones to hack and when to hack them. If it's hovering over a generator, you'd ignore it, but if it's in a loop you think might be high traffic in the foreseeable future, you'd go hack it and reap the rewards when a teammate is chased there and SM has to replace the drone instead of benefiting from it. A direct benefit, as a reward for interacting with her power, or… counterplay.
Again, none of this is to say it can't be improved or that you have to enjoy it. I'm debunking a specific complaint here.
4: "Her kit is bloated" / "She has too many status effects"
I'll come out straight and acknowledge something: This is the most subjective thing on the list, but I do feel strongly enough in my reasoning to still make a case against it.
So, the reason I think this particular complaint is really misleading is the fact that it misses a very crucial detail: Her kit doesn't do much else.
The only things her kit does that aren't related to a status effect are the tracking on her radar and the fact that she can push survivors into interacting with a map prop, everything else comes from a status effect. This is different to other killers (especially ones closer to her in how recently they were released), who may get a few status effects, but get some of the value in their kit from more baked-in mechanics as well. Take Wesker, for example: he and Skull Merchant do a comparable amount of things, after all. He and SM both have:
- A way of speeding themselves up
- A way of slowing the survivors down
- A way of injuring survivors
- A way of applying Deep Wound
- A way of tracking survivors
- A map prop survivors interact with as part of the counterplay
The only thing Merchant has basekit that Wesker doesn't is stealth, outside of that they do a similar number of things. The difference is that Wesker's comes from a mix of baked-in mechanics and status effects, and Merchant's is almost exclusively status effects.
Please don't reply to this to say you think Wesker is better designed, that's not the argument being made and you'd just be proving my point. If you're okay with that NUMBER of effects on Wesker, your problem with Merchant can't be the NUMBER of effects she has.
5: "She gets all her status effects just for pushing a button"
No she doesn't. She gets Undetectable for pushing a button, everything else comes from scanning survivors.
This is relevant because two very important things are true about the spread of Skull Merchant's effects. One, they're staggered, they don't all happen at once. Two, survivors being scanned is something that both sides are putting effort and skill into playing around; the killer wants it to happen, the survivor wants to avoid it.
This point mostly just loops back around to the arguments in the counterplay header, but it's a separate complaint so it gets its own header.
6: "She gets passive, unpredictable Haste"
The Skull Merchant's Haste effect is both not passive, and is very predictable. It only happens when someone is shown on her scanner, and it happens for twelve seconds after a single scan. This is information the survivor players do have access to, though I'll grant the duration is only something you'd know if you look it up.
(As an aside, I would very much like to see that duration conveyed to the survivors via their Lock On stack counter turning red while they're shown on the scanner, to address that.)
The only reason this effect would be passive is if someone's tripping drones outside of chase, which is almost always avoidable and the result of skilled placement when it isn't, which would make it not passive in the latter case. Being rewarded for survivor mistakes you can't rely on or force is not a passive effect.
7: "She's still the best at 3-genning" / "3-genning wasn't fixed"
This one doesn't pop up as much because I think most people kind of understand why it isn't true? But for the sake of completionism I might as well address it here as well.
The argument you see in favour of this complaint typically revolves around arguing that Merchant can set up her drones near generators, and survivors will get scanned when she comes to harass them away from that generator, building up towards a Claw Trap. The problem with this is… well, there are a few problems:
- This isn't actually guaranteed to happen. A survivor running away from a generator MIGHT get scanned on their way out, but they equally might not.
- This means Skull Merchant has to approach and leave the same generator three separate times before she even gets an injury, let alone a down. During this time, the other two generators are free to be repaired with no risk.
- Most importantly, other killers can make that initial approach, the time where Skull Merchant has to be content with a single scan, actually immediately threatening. They get objectively more reward for the same patrol pattern.
These things combined reveal that the situation being described is exactly why Merchant's 3-genning isn't still a problem. She is now at best on par with every other killer- which isn't to say that 3-genning isn't still useful, because it is, for every killer. She's just in a position where her power barely adds anything to the tactic anymore, let alone stall games out for fifty minutes like it used to.
8: "She has the best stealth in the game" / "Her stealth has no tell"
This is another slightly more subjective one, but I think one of the things people need to remember here is that her stealth is balanced with a short timer, not a tell. Every time someone lists a group of killers who have Undetectable but a tell, it's always the killers who have permanent stealth until some action is taken, whereas Skull Merchant's is on a timer.
…Also Dredge is on the list sometimes, but its stealth just sucks in general.
I'm not necessarily saying there's no argument to be had about whether or not that's a fair way of balancing stealth, but the fact that nobody is ever making that argument means the actual complaint made belongs on this list.
—As we close out the list here, I'm going to repeat an important caveat: This list is NOT evidence that there are absolutely no problems worth discussing with the Skull Merchant, nor is it meant to convince you that you should love and adore her. Keep hating her all you want, the point of this list is to at least try and make the discourse surrounding this killer more rooted in the actual, observable power she actually has in the actual game, rather than the misconceptions constantly passed around.In fact, as a show of good faith, I'm going to acknowledge a flaw I think this killer does actually have: I think the amount to which her drones can overlap is honestly a big problem, especially on indoor maps. That's a legitimate problem I'd like to see fixed, but to loop back to the point of this list… how often does that come up? Sometimes, but it's not one of the big and most common complaints, right?We can criticise and provide feedback for a killer while still being honest and fair about them, and that's what I'm trying to achieve here.
I agree with some of this but also disagree with some of this as well.
We'll start off with a pretty easy one. There are generally two things
happening behind this statement, and both of them are things worth
addressing. The first is that most people generally tend to not
acknowledge the skill expression her kit does have, and that's typically because they don't even know it exists, so we'll start with that.Id just like to say, I kind of agree… but at the same time I disagree.
Skull Merchant does take at least some skill, the issue is that the skill ceiling is way lower compared to other Killers while also more rewarding. This aspect I do not mind but it leaves this weird area in balance where I feel like other Killers could be buffed to appropriate reward for the skill required to play them.
This one doesn't pop up as much because I think most people kind of
understand why it isn't true? But for the sake of completionism I might
as well address it here as well.The argument you see in favour of
this complaint typically revolves around arguing that Merchant can set
up her drones near generators, and survivors will get scanned when she
comes to harass them away from that generator, building up towards a
Claw Trap. The problem with this is… well, there are a few problemsSkull Merchant is not as good at holding a 3-gen as before, but she is still undoubtedly strong at holding it since the zones she creates forces Survivors to either: A, sneak around the drones and avoid scans, thus wasting time for the Generators to regress, or B, disable the drones wasting more time. It leaves Survivors in an awkward position where the only counterplay to the drones is to waste more time.
Knight is definitely in a better position for holding 3-gens than Skull Merchant in my opinion, but outright denying it as if it still isnt an issue is definitely not the play to make in my opinion.
The only things her kit does that aren't related to a status effect
are the tracking on her radar and the fact that she can push survivors
into interacting with a map prop, everything else comes from a
status effect. This is different to other killers (especially ones
closer to her in how recently they were released), who may get a few
status effects, but get some of the value in their kit from more
baked-in mechanics as well. Take Wesker, for example: he and Skull
Merchant do a comparable amount of things, after all. He and SM both
have:~ A way of speeding themselves up
~ A way of slowing the survivors down
~ A way of injuring survivors
~ A way of applying Deep Wound
~ A way of tracking survivors
~ A map prop survivors interact with as part of the counterplay
When you ignore nuance than yes, they are the same, but the two are very much different from one another.
- Wesker's way of "speeding themselves up" does now allow for multi-directional movement, you are given a lot of restrictions for your burst of speed, and a cooldown for using it.
- Wesker's way of "slowing Survivors down" is through infection, which requires more skill to land due to the restrictions of Wesker's power. Also Wesker's Hindered effect is now at 4% Hindered. Skull Merchant's Hindered is at 10% Hindered.
- "A way of injuring Survivors" is just an outright pointless point to make, all Killers have this, and yet again, it is ignoring nuance.
- Wesker's way of "applying Deep Wounds" requires him to slam a Survivor into another Survivor, which is not only difficult but heavily relies on the Survivor messing up horribly. For reference, it took me several months to get the Crash Course achievement since slamming a Survivor into another Survivor is really rare.
This entire point you made is a bit dumb in my opinion. Anyone can make a similar set of comparisons by ignoring nuance. Here, let me show you:
"Freddy's power is the same as Trapper's power"
- They both have ways of injuring Survivors.
- They both have ways of downing Survivors.
- They both place a form of trap.
- Their powers create notifications for the Killer when disabled.
- Their powers create an audio cue when ran into or disabled.
Now do you see how dumb it is? Do you see how nuance is ignored here?
There are a lot of things people like to say about Skull Merchant, and
maddeningly, quite a lot of what's said is factually wrong, and even
some of the stuff that isn't can be kind of misleading or
misrepresented. This post isn't necessarily geared towards convincing
you to like Skull Merchant, or even to stop hating her, but rather to
try and make it so the discourse surrounding her is at least honest.Listen, I understand it can be frustrating. And while I do have aspects of Skull Merchant that I dont like (e.g. the illusion of choice with her power… also dw, I have this issue with a few other Killers as well), I do think she gets over-hated due to people not really understanding how her power works.
This being said, I do think there are better ways of addressing it. A lot of points made just feel like "well if X has this, why cant Y have this?" instead of actually addressing what the counterplay or play would be.
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That is… way too small?
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What exactly is the bullying here?
Like I understand you sometimes have rough, frustrating, and/or unfun matches, but that does not necessarily mean that you were being bullied or harassed in a game. Bodyblocking, hit-tanking, etc, are all mechanics in the game that players can use to their advantage, both Killer and Survivor as roles have ways of playing and counterplaying these strategies.
Filing false reports not only prevents actual meaningful reports from being processed quickly, but it actively wastes the time of BHVR staff and moderation who have to review said reports. Im sure BHVR might have some filters to reduce the amount of report spam but even still, it's still awful to do regardless.
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@Zaydin said:
Because BHVR is biased in favor of survivors. It's not up for debate anymore.
From a different thread but it is applicable here. BHVR does not favor a specific side.
(Changed the image to be medium size to make not look awkward when quoting another reply/post.)
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This is not a Bug Report. This should go in the Feedback channel.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736286#Comment_3736286
It’s very small. I don’t have a screenshot but maybe someone else does.
Oh. :(
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@radiantHero23 said:
I dont like the secrecy going around with these obscure charms, so I created this post to gather information and to not let anyone in the dark.
Nobody likes to miss out on something they could have gotten. Charms are mostly a one and gone thing so we should share all the information we have to make sure that everyone had a "fair" chance to get them.
Charms:
Bag of holding
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EDKT2X2GYIAJ/screenshot-28183-29.png
This one is obtainable through a giveaway through this link, that our lord and saviour @Mooks was so kind to already share:
https://giveaways.joinsurf.com/giveaway/WWjefTb
You have to have at least a twitter account to claim it.
Beholder
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DEPPVN9KXVGF/screenshot-28182-29.png
Ive seen people already have this charm in some videos and would love to know how one could claim it.
If you have any information, please share them here!
Edit: Thanks to @Mooks : propably obtainable through buying one of the D&D comsetics. These being:
- Meg (Sidetrack Archer)
- Mikaela (Mystical Origins)
- Jeff (Reluctant Warrior)
- Legion (Backstabber)
- Knight (Menacing Knight)(creative name?)
The cosmetic(s) from Vecna and Aestri/Baermar dont seem to reward one with this charm, otherwise I would have it.
Mimic chest
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AMN2YLJO8HHV/screenshot-28184-29.png
D20
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZFDRSI1P4SGX/screenshot-28185-29.png
Owlbear plush
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/192ZK703EHXD/screenshot-28186-29.png
These last 3 charms are still shrouded in mystery. The wiki still categorizes them as unobtainable.
If any information reaches your ears, let us know so that nobody is left out like with the Huntress charm some weeks ago.
May our cooperative efforts be successful!
Edit: I just found out that I missed out on a cool D&D banner despite being subscribed to the DBD newsletter…
Does anyone have an image on how the Bag of Holding looks on Survivor? If it is decently sized and actually looks like a real bag, I might get it for fashion reasons.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735867#Comment_3735867
Yes, this. Disappointing to see none of the top comments in the video mention this fact.
Because breaking from the conventional "Us VS Them" mindset is difficult for people since it gives them a (ir)rational reason to raise their pitchforks and torches.
Some people just struggle to understand that balance changes are made for both sides and not solely based on a single one; BHVR is a company, companies like money since it keeps the doors open, it is not profitable nor reasonable to only cater to a single side, so BHVR listens to the demands of both sides and makes changes accordingly.
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Except the video is kinda wrong.
On the PTB, you moved slower while casting Mage Hand, which got changed to not be as impactful on Vecna going into Live Servers. In fact, the main issue with the PTB was that Vecna got slowed down and it wasnt worth using, which got resolved going into Live Servers.
The only aspect that is actually noteworthy is the pallet lifting animation being changed from 0.35 to 0.5, which even then wont do much if you actually take the time to learn Vecna's Mage Hand instead of just mindless using it.
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@elscardo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735807#Comment_3735807
I think it would be interesting for FOTD to launch crouch-able, but then halfway through it's flight it goes down to the ground and would require juking. It would require a bit more skill to dodge it, and the killer could use it at different ranges to do different things. Then just rework the iri addon to do something else.
I made a response to another post about it, and yea, I agree. The elevation of FotD should change as it flies to move downwards a bit to become uncrouchable. From a distance FotD spreads anyways, you can dodge between the gaps, it just allows for the Vecna player to go for my skillful plays while still leaving room for counterplay from the Survivor (without making it too easy of course).
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I feel like this entire post is just riddled with "Us VS Them" instead of actually taking the time to recognize why it is an issue.
Lifting a pallet does not cause you to lose much distance, the speed at which the action is done is quick and the movement speed decrease you deal with an afterthought more than anything else; on many loops it can lead to you being hit regardless of how you play the tile.
It's not a case of "Windows of Opporunity user is camping the pallet", I dont use Windows of Opporunity at all, nor do I camp pallets, and Mage Hand was still too strong at dealing with pallets, and this is coming from someone who has played as and against Vecna a lot.
I think the fundamental issue with Vecna is they buffed the wrong aspects of his kit, Mage Hand on the PTB was mediocre and definitely needed a buff but did not need as much of a buff as it got, Flight of the Damned needed buffs more than any other aspect, in my opinion. And while FotD is alright, it does have some really good usage case, FotD is too easy to dodge from far away and does not reward skillful shots when it should.
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@Jaredleto1234 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735664#Comment_3735664
I think he is unquestionably better than most killers and will likely receive a round of nerfs, just like the several killers that came before him. Killer perks being good is irrelevant to what I am saying, they are just icing. When was the last time you bought a dlc for the survivor perks because they were good?
When was the last time you bought a DLC for the Survivor perks because they were good?
I bought:
- Gabriel Soma: Made For This, Troubleshooter
- Nicolas Cage: Dramaturgy, Plot Twist
- Ellen Ripley: Chemical Trap
- Alan Wake: Champion of Light
- Sable Ward: Wicked, Strength in Shadows
- Aestri Yazar: Bardic Inspiration
A perk does not need to be S-tier to be good or usable, we've gotten a lot of good perks that has made me consider purchasing DLCs, they are not insanely meta defining but they are more than good enough to consider using.
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I think the Skeletons should honestly move downwards over time, this way shots from far away (that take more skill to hit) are not easily negated by crouching (you can still dodge between the gaps since the further they travel, the wider the gaps are). Weaker up close, stronger further away.
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I think the Killswitch should only be used for it's intended use, things that break the game or are too broken to have in normal gameplay. That being said, I dont think BHVR uses the Killswitch properly since there are many times they should use it but never actually do.
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@Brightened said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416545/so-where-are-the-unknown-is-op-people-at
Unknown is horrible for new players to go against. That's why he is OP. They will release these killers that are incredible strong to counter and just expect the survivor players to adapt. (Which we end up doing). Doesn't make them not OP at release, just means we learn to adapt to it.
"Unknown is horrible for new players to go against. That's why he is OP."
That's literally not how it works.
You cant say "it's overpowered" while also saying "it's only effective against inexperienced players"? By that metric, literally everything would be overpowered since new players dont have the knowledge or skill to counter anything in this game.
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Distortion is a perk that exists.
Also Id prefer if Killers ran Lethal Pursuer, since Killers running it are running 1 less slowdown perk minimum. Since it increases the duration of other Aura Reading effects, people often run it with other Aura Reading perks, which means less slowdown.
The Killer is opting to replace regression with perks that help them gain more pressure or make smarter micro/macro-game decisions, and I think it is a fair trade-off.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734868#Comment_3734868
What the.... Who thought this was OK?
Since EGC got introduced it's become hard beyond reason.
Older DBD has achievements that were generally harder or more grindy to pad out the playtime since the game didnt have much content back then.
Some examples:
- Shocking Treatment: Hit Survivors with Shock Therapy (Doctor) 500 times. Keep in mind this achievement only counts progress that actively progress Madness, so if they are in Madness Tier 3, you cant farm it off that Survivor until they have does the Snap Out of It action.
- The Man In The Bush: Stalk to gain a tier of Evil Within (Shape) 300 times. Keep in mind that EW has a limit to the amount you can do in a match, and good Survivors will always try to break LOS to prevent you from getting a tier of EW.
- Skilled Huntress (Pre-Patch): Down Survivors from 24-meters away with a Hatchet (Huntress) 100 times. This achievement was so horrible that BHVR patched it to be 20 in the current version, I dont know exactly when they did it, but it was sometimes between 2022 and 2024.
- Hemophobia: Escape the Crotus Penn Asylum without losing a health state. I dont think I need to explain this.
The issue is that outside of Skilled Huntress, none of these achievements have been updated to the modern DBD achievement format. A lot of them are just "do X 100/200/300/500 times" often with the X you are actively doing have a limitation to the action.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
While I don’t think nobody out there deranks, it’s usually touted as a “i lost because of x” thing.
It's not even "I lost because of X thing" since most of the time it is used in situations in which the person is not actively involved in it (e.g. a random person accusing a content creator because their opponents were not good, said random person is not actively involved in any of the matches).
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733555#Comment_3733555
What was Left Behind again? They changed that like 10x. I remember getting that during the age of Hatch-standoffs by 99ing 2 gens next to each other on swamp and then leaving through the gate with the lamp-tech (opening the gate until right before the 1st lamp glows, wait for the killer to check, then do the rest).
Left For Dead (Idk why I thought it was Left Behind)
Complete the final Generator as the last Survivor alive and escape through the Exit Gates.
You basically have to bank on your team being horrible but at least good enough to do most Generators. You have to complete the final Generator before the Killer closes the hatch, then you have to advertise your exact location to the Killer, and escape through the Exit Gates before they kill you.
The only reason why this achievement is still in the game was when it was added back in the early days of DBD and you could complete the other 2 remaining Generators after the 5 Generators were finished, Survivor leaving through the gates contributed towards you being the last Survivor alive. It's an achievement that has only gotten harder as time has gone on while basically remaining unchanged.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734595#Comment_3734595
demo is another weak killer that needs a lot of buffs. There is no point in playing demo now and there won't be any point for long while.
As a Demo main… :(
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In moments like these, sometimes you just gotta say "womp womp" and move on.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734581#Comment_3734581
Me too but if I'm only picking one, it's going to be the one that can't be destroyed. It also decreases by 10% for any other cleansed totems.
I think a solid argument could be made for Hex: Thrill of the Hunt here since Beast of Prey completely removed the ability to mindgame which can just mess with the gameflow and result in less Bloodpoints.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733911#Comment_3733911
flame turrets are unnecessary feature. this feature should be added for nurse or something.
Then what would be the point in playing Demo?
Their tail attack has less wind up and less warning (often requiring prediction to actually dodge), ignores pallets and windows, and can be hooked over loops. Their mobility is insanely fast and requires literally no set-up since it's already spawned on the map; likewise it cannot be removed either.
Removing the Flamers would quite literally provide no reason to play Demo since Xeno would be better in quite literally every aspect.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733904#Comment_3733904
Use Beast of Prey instead of Thrill. It's not a totem so survivors can't break it.
I sometimes stack Beast of Prey with Hex: Thrill of the Hunt.
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I dont think BHVR should do this.
Look at 95% of the multiplayer games that exist and most of them do not show if people are playing with their friends or not. Since realistically, yes they do gain an advantage, but at the same time it will lead to toxicity and harassment towards people who play with their friends.
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I think Xenomorphs entire design is kind of just… bad.
Either the Flamers are too oppressive and Xenokitty gets nothing from it, or the Flamers are too weak and Xenokitty just gets an oppressive chase power with basically no downside. They could technically find a middle area but it's insanely difficult to actually reach that point and I dont think either side will really be satisfied with the end result.
I dont really like the design idea that, "Killer is stronk, but also item completely shuts them down," since it just leads to clunky gameplay from both sides, and it is something that will persist regardless of how strong or weak the Killer is.
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I normally run Distressing and Hex: Thrill of the Hunt for the Bloodpoint Bonus on Killers that need it if there is a Bloodpoint event active (e.g. Plague, Myers, etc.).
There are also Killers where the increased Terror Radius. quite literally does nothing so you just get a flat increase to Bloodpoint Scores (e.g. Wraith, Freddy, etc.).
Even on Killers that dont need it, it means I can just farm Bloodpoints while turning my brain off which isnt that bad tbh.
The increased Terror Radius is kinda bad on a most Killers, but the Bloodpoint Bonus is not as bad as people make it out to be, it definitely isnt as good as old BBQ but it's the closest youll get.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732627#Comment_3732627
About Heamophobia, I heard that No Mither helps with that one, as you don't bleed.
It doesnt, the "dont lose a drop of blood" is flavor text, it means that you just cant be injured. And even if, you still leave blood if you are put in the Dying State with No Mither, so it effectively accomplishes nothing.
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@dark9087 said:
omg, how can such a horrible designed achievement even be in the game, first killer dependant survivor achievement, how is this even a thing? what if I don't face vecna in 5 months? I just can't get it because I'm unlucky?
So, I have to hope to face vecna, hope to roll a 20 and hope that my team is competent enough to win? Can we not make achievements that rely so much on hoping?Meanwhile Left For Dead and Hemophobia are still really awful to get.