Halloulle
Halloulle
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If hatch were to be gone the end game would have to get a complete redesign.
Because if the hatch is just removed and nothing else is changed how is the match supposed to go once only two survivors are left? Only if the last gen is about to pop or if the gates are on literal opposite sides of the map and the killer does not have high mobility is there any point in continuing the match. In all other cases it will automatically result into a 4k or a situation bordering on holding the game hostage.
Also what HugTheHag said above.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373030#Comment_3373030
I'd be fine with seeing nothing of the lobby as you're proposing if the game was balanced around swf and items were reigned in to be balanced (medkits specifically). I'd take that trade. However, if you made those changes people would for the most part stop lobby dodging anyway as that's the reason.
"But if the killer then gets to commit to a match based on what they see in lobby, yet a survivor doesn't "just because" (since they don't see what's in the lobby with them) then to me that doesn't ring right."
I see the double standard here you're referring to. However, the problem here is that there are way more unbalanced and unfair things on the survivor side than the killer side in my opinion as well as the prevalence of each. For example, apart from certain people just disliking specific killers (which isn't really a balance thing), the only things survivors would view as over tuned is maybe a couple killers and a few addons, there really isn't much. Most the issues survivors have is with the play styles in the match itself. Most the killers issues are swf (extremely common at higher mmr), items (extremely prevalent), and some of their meta perks (extremely prevalent). All mostly visible things in lobby essentially.
Somewhat of an apples and oranges comparison I guess is my point.
I can only go on my personal experience here but while "a couple killers and add-ons" is, compared to the total available killers and add-ons, indeed just a few.... they still make up the majority of what you see in matches from a certain point on*. Just like killers don't have an issue with items in general but with the few items with powerful add-ons that at some point are present in the majority of matches. Similarly people don't have an issue with swf but the playstyle that swf presumably entails.
I see the point about apples and oranges -- but it's maybe more like lemons and limes from my pov.
But yeah, for all I care balance around swf and certain items/add-ons. But also balance certain add-ons and certain killers. - Then we'd probably see both: less lobby dodging and less dc-ing/taking chances first hook.
*A bit of a tangent here but there are few things as discouraging and unfun as loading into a game with friends to have some fun and having fun loadouts (between the four of us one exhaustion perk, maybe another 2-3 meta perks total and the rest are fun perks we just want to try and pull off - think ftp wgfl, teamwork+bloodpact+speed boon, slippery meat+up the ante, ace in the hole appraisal, these kinda things. Hardly any items - and even if then it's usually just whatever is needed to be emptied for a challenge/ritual and thus add-onless brown) and getting P80+ killers and/or them bringing best add-ons or literal Hens and frens with their bazillion hours when they play their killers makes me stop playing for the day faster than any number of fc bubbas in a row could. This is where I can see where killers who dodge are coming from. If I could see the killer, the prestige and the add-ons and were to dodge, then the exact same things that make killers dodge would make me dodge.
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.... but doesn't that comparison fall short when it comes to that last aspect you mention:
"Both are about making a zone on the map where if the other side goes into it for too long, then they lose."
The killer doesn't want to hunt down the coh placed in a deadzone; they have no business being there and thus aren't there.
Survivors however have to go into the drone area for prolonged periods of time.
... So, to me it kinda looks more like a "god boon" on steroids; one that can get rebooned within two seconds after a neglible cooldown if it had been snuffed.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372812#Comment_3372812
Hmm I guess I can see what you're saying. So you view whether it's lobby or in game as basically the same.
I feel like once in game it's causing a lot more disruption and you've already committed to the match. Like for our example a 4 man swf with 4 medkits, once in game I wouldn't dc or anything like that (assume last second item swaps I guess).
For the record though I'm not condoning anybody to do anything, just saying my thought process.
Yes, I do essentially think it's the same. - And while I can also see what you mean, I also do think that the only difference is the increase in loading screens (then again; depending on how long matchmaking / lobby refill takes I suppose the time difference might be neglible as well). But what's more disruptive is probably a rather subjective call in the end.
On the commitment: In my view that's something that only works if both sides operate on the same basic rules, namely that you get matched to a lobby and then play that match. But if the killer then gets to commit to a match based on what they see in lobby, yet a survivor doesn't "just because" (since they don't see what's in the lobby with them) then to me that doesn't ring right. In that sense I guess I consider lobby dodging the killer equivalent of running into the killer and immediately taking chances on hook; it's the penalty-free way of noping out of a match that you should be playing.
But instead of "delaying the point of commitment into the match itself" - how about solidifying lobby/a match being found as the "point of commitment". For both sides.
Someone suggested just loading straight into the match without the pre match lobby --- but in theory I suppose that is there so that solos can coordinate builds if they wish to --- and generally allowing people to switch to the builds they want for that match. So while I personally like the idea I don't think it's worth considering. --- But how about giving the "Leave" button in lobby the same treatment as the "Leave Match" button? You leave the lobby, you get a temporary matchmaking ban and have to wait it out before you can queue again. While I'm not a particularly big fan of punitive measures to address an issue I wouldn't necessarily look at it from a "punishment as incentive" perspective but a management perspective; people who very frequently dodge ruin a disproportionate amount of matches for other players so you would want as few of these people queuing at the same time as possible. And this is where the timeout comes in; simply manage the frequency of lobby dodging so that the remaining players have to deal with it less often. People who dodge/dc once in a blue moon for legitimate reasons would hardly notice the minute - while the damage lobby shoppers cause would be minimised for everyone.
sorry for the ramble. Nighttime brain is striking again -
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372758#Comment_3372758
"Though, that being said, I am now just even more curious about what your opinion is on survivors getting out of the match asap one way or the other once they realise the match they're in is equally unbalanced."
Consistency wise yes, I would agree with the inverse as well. I would feel the same exact way for survivor in lobby if they knew they were going to play a match that was extremely unfair and not balanced for.
Since the statement was more vague I'm not sure exactly which scenarios you're referring to as it does change things a little. Such as do you mean after the match has already started or in lobby? I would take much more issue with killer or survivor doing that once the match is started. My statements earlier are referencing more just in lobby for either side.
Or were you actually referencing like once it's down to a 3v1?
I'm talking about the earliest judgement call on the presumed (un)balance of the match. Since survivors can only make that call once the match has started I'm talking about once the match has started. --- And personally I don't see a difference in a killer dodging a lobby and screwing up to five people due to how backfills work - or a survivor DCing/taking chances on hook early match and screwing up to four people due to the situation they leave the remaining players in.
And once it's down to 3v1 we're past the point of that earliest judgement call though, so that is indeed a different story.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372743#Comment_3372743
Yes.
Do you disagree? If so, why is that?
No, I do not disagree. - Quite the contrary; I do think ultimately it's the balance system that falls short of what it is supposed to achieve. Imo, the biggest part is that loadouts aren't taken into account.
Though, that being said, I am now just even more curious about what your opinion is on survivors getting out of the match asap one way or the other once they realise the match they're in is equally unbalanced.
[This is not supposed to be some kind of gotcha thing. - I just think for consistency's sake you have to either be ok with both - or with neither. For the reasons Pulsar stated in the OP, dodging (as well as quitting) screws the system and the players even more than is already the case and thus it should not be done; don't exacerbate the problem. So I fall on the neither side. - Though I can understand people who fall on the other side; it's already bad and if it's bad in the one or the other way doesn't matter.]
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@Blueberry said:
I think it has more to do with items or looking like a swf than it does prestige.
"Personally, I think that if you dodge (assuming you don't see a potential cheater) you are knowingly and purposefully screwing up the system."
I disagree with this. The entity at fault is the game being poorly balanced and people having to dodge matches the game isn't balanced for. They're doing the work the balance team should be doing.
This would be like saying if I'm in a 4 man swf with 4 medkits the killer is the bad person for dodging, of which I whole heartedly disagree with. He is absolutely justified in dodging that. The game isn't balanced for that.
I just want to ask a quick question: Do I understand correctly that you have the opinion that because the balance system is at fault, people who opt to not play a match they have determined will be unbalanced are justified to do that [not playing the match]?
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@GrimoireWeiss said:
At this point they should just get rid of the pre-game lobby and load players straight into the match. You can't see other players loadouts anyway so why bother wasting time.
Actually, yes please. I would really like that. Maybe give a ten second buffer so that everyone can switch to the loadout they actually want to bring and then straight into the match.
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I rarely play my high prestiges (cause most people I play with stick to low prestige characters / spread ther prestiges across all survs so they're somwhere in the 20s or 30s - and I don't want to be the odd one out). - But occasionally I play with people who like to play their high prestiges (70-100).
With the sub P40 characters there's rarely any dodging happening (regardless of soloQ or swf; we're all steam and any killer who checks profiles can see we're swf - and we often have funny matching names as well). Maybe once every 2-3 lobbies. If at all.
As soon as it's a full P70+ lobby the dodging gets rather ridiculous. - At least two times per lobby, sometimes even five or six times.
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You need to elaborate on that one.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371671#Comment_3371671
you PRETEND that i didn't verse her in that situation, but facts are others... also in order to found those 3 gen so close the killer must pick up a specific map offering for a certain realm that i won't mention here cause the game is already boring enough with those kind of tactics without being incentivized... usually the gens have enough distance between each other and can't be defended if all survivors are still alive, even with that kind of killer
As i said you have a plethora of things to use at your disposal to counter that situation, if you don't understand (or better, if you REFUSE to understand) then our debate can end here since you can't talk to people who refuse to listen/learn from their mistakes...
You must be a very wise player we can all learn from. - Please, the next time you face a 3genning Skully, could you record your superior survivor strats upload the match and link it here so we can all learn from you?
No, really tho, if you found a reliable way to break Dead Dawg, RPD, Midwich, all the rectangular maps that can spawn a four gen on one side or 2level gens, where the gen upstairs is in nearly the same place as the one downstairs I would be very curious to know.
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Yee, while not every Skully player who goes for a three gen manages to not mess it up (how, tho?) that's something you learn 20-30 mins into the match. The average match, skully excluded, is ~12mins long. Hell no, I ain't gonna spent half an hour in misery just to find out if it's pointless.
(Which doesn't mean I or the people I play with default DC. We try to rush - which on very spread out maps sometimes works depending on where she and we spawned in and what rng is like. - And if that doesn't work we each try to do what we can to get our safety pips and go gg next. Take your win Skully, idc.)
The sad part is; it does seem like there isn't really another successful strategy with her. - Not yet, anyhow. While the three genning knight is a thing I've seen quite a few who became quite good at zoning and pinching rather quickly. - Fingers crossed some players figure out more healthy ways of playing her as well --- or BHVR decides to give her a rework/some fundamental changes.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372021#Comment_3372021
By the time you can/need to use it there's usually not even an unopened chest left
Really? Usually I'm the only one bothering to open chests at all. And while finding a teammate or using Inner Healing are good points, I have an easier time finding a chests than teammates or totems. But I'm a habitual looter so I guess I'm the type who would get more use out of Pharmacy than other people.
I kind of wish it worked like Residual Manifest where you rummaged through the chest for a medkit instead, because then I could use the medkit first and then switch to whatever item I got out of the chest too. But if I'm running for chests to get a heal, then getting that medkit first thing as soon as possible is the better design.
"But if I'm running for chests to get a heal, then getting that medkit first thing as soon as possible is the better design." - In that case it should still be the exact same way it was before: if you open a chest while having pharmacy equipped you get a green medkit. - ((And if people are afraid it's gonna be abused to scatter medkits around the map, then make it that you start with one token and gain a token for every time you got injured. Each medkit you get from a chest consumes a token.))
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3371973#Comment_3371973
What's wrong with Pharmacy? It seems functional to me.
Functional in the sense that it does what the description says? Yes, sure. - Functional as in at all sensible to bring into the trial? No. By the time you can/need to use it there's usually not even an unopened chest left and even if there is, somewhere, you won't usually find that unopened chest quicker than finding a teamie who can heal you. That is not at all functional. --- If you really need a disposable heal via perk you're always better off with Inner Healing (or, you know, coh).
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I don't use too many different perks on Killer (I like my basic builds; one slot for info, one slot for slowdown, two slots for whatever sounds funny enough to equip).
On survivor I have made it my personal mission to stay clear of meta perks as much as possible and find the overlooked ones that you can actually get good value out of (Distortion has become more popular and I've seen more We'll Make It - but Desperate Measures and Leader are def. underrated perks and come in useful more often than you'd think). But boy, are there a lof of perks that I have failed to find some form of consistent application for (aka that don't rely on effectively throwing half the match just to get the perk working and/or the active participation of one or more teamies).
But the two perks that hurt me the most (because they used to be niche but useful in that niche) are just the very definition of bad now: Calm Spirit and Pharmacy. No matter how you define bad - they always fit the definition. Though there are more perks that fall into that category: Technician (except if you want to build a flashbang mountain...), This Is Not Happening, Visionary, Rookie Spirit, Situational Awareness, Premonition, Counter Force and Corrective Action. These may just as well be removed from the game altogether. --- Then there are a number of perks that could, in theory, have some form of useful application but don't ever actually come in handy or actively harm the team in the process; Dark sense, Dark Theory, Autodidact, Bloodpact, Soulguard, Buckle Up, No One Left Behind, Guardian, No Mither, Mettle Of Man, Object of Obsession, Slippery Meat, Up the Ante, Ace in the Hole, Poised, Potential Energy, Tenacity, Power Struggle, Flip Flop, Breakdown, Self-Preservation, Plunderer's Instinct, Clairvoyance, Appraisal and Red Herring.
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the friends I play with and I are getting our characters (survs and killers alike) closer and closer to P100. - Some already have 1-2 at P100. ---- But tbh. I really don't like getting closer. They are my beloved hoarder mains that I usually only play in customs or when everyone else is bringing their high prestiges. I almost feel obliged to find a new main (or new mains) once my fav bois are P100 --- it gives me anxiety 😣
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I agree that four Adrenalines can turn the tables... but having the potential to turn the tables in the very last stage of the game is kinda what end game perks are all about.
Playing the entire match with three perks to be left with a conditional heal that you likely don't meaningfully benefit from (the killer bringing noed makes it completely worthless, and even if you get the speedbost from being M1-ed it buys you a few seconds at best and since it's endgame there are likely no resources around whatsoever... so the result is the exact same, just 3-10 seconds later, depending on who can hug the longwall tighter). --- Then again; you talk about gutting the perk and I assume what you suggest would do just that and remove the perk from any meta perk list.
Given the track record of actually useful survivor perks being released once in a blue moon this would result in an even shorter list of meta perks and even less build diversity. - And seeing 4x [PERK] seems to be the core issues most people complain about. - And I ask you: would you be as upset about Adrenaline if only one survivor per match - or even one survivor and only every other match - had it equipped?
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It's alright. I don't mind it as survivor since the aura was added. - If it's right next to the hook then it's ggs - but that's rng and sometimes rng is the deciding factor in this game. And at least you know it is right there and can leave. - Plus, with the combination of the aura and the HUD it's not at all too oppressive anymore. If you're more than one other survivor alive chances are you will find that totem and chances are you will make it to the hook in time for the rescue --- if the unhook means all survivors alive also get out or if one still ends up dead is a different story but you get a good shot at doing it.
As killer I haven't ever used it so I can't say much in that regard. Tho, if anything, it might need a little bit of a buff in case all totems have been broken. It rarely happens - but it's still an entire perkslot and it's not the almighty endgame perk it used to be that is kinda all-or-nothing. So if all totems have been broken maybe make the NOED rekindle itself upon all gens being repaired - but just for 14/17/20 seconds, then it breaks down again; so you can capitalise on that moment of exposed - but that's about it.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
It says an awful lot about the power of the top survivor perks vs the top killer perks when you look at the relative usage rates. Survivors have two above 30% while the most-used killer perk is only 23%. That is not balanced at all. Either give killers a couple god perks or nerf DH and WOO to make them less OP. Even looking at the top 5-6 perks, it’s very clear the top survivor perks are way more overpowered than the top killer perks and the usage rates prove that.
Note - I love WOO and use it on every survivor build. Please don’t change it :)
usage rate =/= powerfulness though. - Or put differently: Seeing the same numbers you could just as well get to the conclusion that survivors have way fewer viable perks which results in very high usage rates of very few perks while killers have a broader spectrum of viable perks, resulting in overall lower usage percentages per perk. --- Not to mention that, contrary to survivors, killers function very differently from each other and there are certain perks that are meta on some killers but not on others, which further spreads the percentage points across all perks.
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Tbh, I don't think there's much in the current meta to drastically change. - Dh is there, as always, but that's a can of worms in and of itself. Prove might get a change with all the whining that's going on --- but that would only further strengthen the split-on-gens-meta. It would flat out drop from the meta - with nothing to replace it, as of now. On the killer side... on their own all those perks are perfectly fine - for killer it's usually much more synergising effects that are the issue. So if anything I can see the regression perks collectively getting a "to a maximum of"-kinda line, to limit the stacking.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/367560/swfs-need-a-nerf
Well...
You could refuse to play against them?
Consider that they normally don't log in as 4 players to farm blood points, and that implies they are after something else, and it likely has to do with the killer.
If you don't want to do that thing, just ignore them.
If the game play experience is not fun for you, just don't engage them.
I do this when someone wants to boil over second floor Ormand. Its just not worth the effort to entertain them when this is the game they want to play.
"[...]they normally don't log in as 4 players to farm blood points[...]"
Yesterday. Late evening.
Friend: Come play, we need a 4th!
Me: ... ok.
Friend upon seeing the offerings: Who's the bloody rat who didn't bring BPS? - We wAnT bP! GivE mE My BP! Why do you think I play swf? So I don't have some monkey who dcs and wastes my BPS.
---- and tbh, I only ever bring BPS if it's at least a trio and I can be fairly certain it's actually worth it.
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On the broader topic of nerfing swf. The thing is, you can't. swf =/= swf. What you want to nerf is "sweaty swf on comms" - but the game has no way of telling people Q-ing up together have comms or if they gonna be seal-team-six-ing. Just assuming that anyone playing in swf is automatically on comms and sweating and using that as the starting point for balancing is just as misguided as using soloQ as the starting point for balancing.
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Distortion and Leader are part of Pretty much every build I've played over the last few months.The other two slots are more variable but I really do like Wake Up, WGLF, We'll Make It and Desperate and usually fill the remaining slots with those.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369530#Comment_3369530
I have easy this time to awnser you: If you were right in anything you said, they would just reduce the Incapacitation effect of Eruption to 2-5 seconds instead of 25, not changing the effect to something not even related to the original or that is not useful in any way unless you have a slugging build. Simple as that.
And I'm going to guess you don't play killer enough. The moment you start getting the good survivors that know what they are doing you would have 2 gens pop up by the time you do your first hook. And as someone that have started playing survivor as much as killer, I could say to you the times this didn't happen is because the survivors itself. I don't know how many times I would finish a whole generator by myself while my partners have their status icon empty. Those are the people that then complains about not be able to coordinate being SoloQ players.
idk if you want me to repeat it every single post but again: "I wouldn't even mind if Eruption was the exception to the rule and applied incapacitated for a few seconds. But I also said I doubt that would make anyone happy because that short duration is likely not useful enough." - You seem very hellbent on only accepting your own line of thought and absolutely refuse to entertain any other train of thought. As such I doubt it makes sense to discuss further. Let's leave it at a diplomatical: agree to disagree on Eruption.
As for killer: I don't play a whole lot of killer, true, compared to survivor anyhow. - But I got about 800 killer hours over the past year - half of which - or even more - is on one killer. I dare say: if you have 400 hours on one killer you're out of the newb pool. Prestiges and hours don't mean too much but I do think it's still safe to assume that P50+ and 2k+ hours survs aren't exactly new to the game either. But yes, I often do have my first hook right around the time the first one or two gens pop - and I don't sweat it. And neither do I camp or tunnel - I still average out at around 65-70% killrate - and that is while leaving the last surv to go and find hatch nine out of ten times. I play extremely chill and sometimes I can tell survivors can tell and they play rather chill too. - I'm tempted to say that's the secret; to just be chill and not sweat it.... but i am very well aware that many - if not most - people playing dbd beg to differ. So it's just what I do and it works for me and that's all i care about <3
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369328#Comment_3369328
Way to say a lot of words, without saying nothing. It is the same logic and you failed to explain why it is not. But the funny thing is all of those things can be changed to something that doesn't left the killer in the same place without even be a nerf to survivors, so even if it wasn't there is no reason to not do it:
- Blast Mine can just blind the killer so he could still finish to kick the gen and start walking while the effects hits, not just simply "wait it out".
- DS could add a boost in speed to the survivor instead of stunning for those 5 seconds. Yes, that survivor got away, but at least I can start go after another right away.
- Survivors already gain an speed boost plus killers a cooldown to be able to attack again, why I need to be also slowed down so I can't even go to another survivor after a hit? More so when that hit was to a DH?
- A long etc. with all the other "oppressive" things survivor can have and use in a match at the same time.
That's why I said it is an "excuse", because if that was really it they could just reduce the time so "it's not so oppressive", change it to block the gen instead and do the same to other effects like that. So, the only real reason to that change is "survivors are crying like hell as it has no real counterplay, and god forbids something the killer do don't have a clear and easy counterplay so it's just a slight nuisance to them, so daddy BHVR would simply kill the perk and problem solved". If BHVR would have changed the effect to something equally useful for the killer, like blocking the gen, people would still be crying about Eruption and they know it.
What I want to know is why they even bother to put it in the PTB in the first place. Technically, the reason to put it in there is if the change isn't good they should not put it in live and keep trying to change it. Do they pretend to say that anyone apart from the survivors main saw that change and said "Oh yeah, that new effect is super useful for any killer. Really good perk, to the live servers ASAP."? Because I don't believe it for a second.
And to finish, with most games ending in 4-5 minutes what killers need right now is precisely a ton of flavors of "this gen can not be progressed". I think is time for BHVR to stop designing killer powers and perks for the good of survivors, because if SM being the killer with the most survivor friendly power they can think off is proof of something is of this mentality they have.
..... You are the one who made the argument that it is the same. I wasn't convinced because it is not the same; survivor and killer have fundamentally different mechanics. But I'll humour you: If anything a survivor stun is of the same category as the doctor's shock. A stun lasts 2 seconds - not 25. And since I didn't actually change my opinion or anything: I wouldn't even mind if Eruption was the exception to the rule and applied incapacitated for a few seconds. But I also said I doubt that would make anyone happy because that short duration is likely not useful enough. Again: the degree matters. A degree of incapacitated that is long enough to be useful is also unhealthy for the game because it prevents the survs from doing anything to progress the match in a disproportionate way, aka is way too oppressive.
Since the rest is even more off topic I won't address it. If you feel so strongly about it, I recommend starting a thread. I would actually like to join you in that thread cause it is an interesting argument.
You are making assumptions what the dev's intention/rationale was. Granted, so am I - but personally I think the devs trying to find a way to make slowdown perks more diverse seems more plausible. Another perk that blocks a gen isn't exactly adding to diversity. The incapacitated was something else and new in relation to perks --- and it missed the mark. And like I said I doubt the aura reading is gonna hit it either. Putting Eruption in with the chapter also means it could receive further changes together with other perks in the midchapter. I really hope they do that.
And I agree, there should be different flavours of 'this gen can't be progressed' - but I don't think we need more iterations of 'this gen is blocked'. There are other ways to keep a gen from being progressed right away.
On a side note: I would really love to see what kind of matches you play that are over in 4-5 minutes on average. And can I have some of those? Cause safe for a face camping insta down killer, someone overcommitting way too much to the wrong person or someone being plain afk... this hasn't happened in ages for me. Neither does this happen on killer for me - not on a regular basis anyhow.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369279#Comment_3369279
Yes, it is the exact same logic. In fact, it is worst, as with incapacitation you can still move. And if you say it is not because of the time of the effect, they could effectively reduced the duration of Incapacitation to 5 seconds and that would be more useful than what they did.
And sorry but no, they didn't said nothing about the "degree of oppression", they say specifically "effects that limit survivors to not doing anything at all", that was the excuse given. "Problematic" to deal with and oppressive is precisely what killers perks should be for the survivors, and Eruption effect should have been changed to something like blocking the gen for 20 seconds, even more so with their reasoning to remove the Incapacitation effect.
It still isn't the same logic. It's the old apples and oranges thing. Sure - both are fruit but that still doesn't mean they're the same / should be treated / evaluated the same. That aside, I won't argue with you about something I already pointed out in the post you first quoted.
Using the word "excuse" implies you think it's an arbitrary decision not founded in reason. I disagree. - Though you are right they didn't explicitly state the oppressiveness as a reason. It is however how I interpret their evaluating the perk as unhealthy ( esp. for soloQ) due to the complete inability to progress the game in anyway. Because causing the other side to be unable to progress the game in any way is the very definition of maximum pressure / total oppression. -- You also seem to apply the word problematic to a different context. I meant problematic from a game health perspective, in case that wasn't clear. - And on a last note: oppressive is not a binary thing. Hence me saying "this degree of oppression". You even quoted it.
Is how the perk works now any good? I don't know. The aura reading does seem a bit arbitrary. - Though, I do appreciate their effort to not add another flavour of "this gen is blocked because reasons". - Maybe eruption will see another change that is less arbitrary than aura reading and more original than a gen being blocked.
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there's usually little point in bringing something other than a medkit or stupidly powerful toolbox. And those are few and far in between and to be used if you need a specific challenge/ritual done or really want to pip or have a specific build in mind.
And since you're not supposed to have an escape rate higher than ~35% and with all the junk in the bloodweb you'll lose items faster than you gain them -- and depending on the match won't even get to use them. So there is really relatively little point in bringing them for any match you play just for the fun of it.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368679#Comment_3368679
By that same logic, they should also reduce, change or remove all the stuns and slow downs "without conditions to end it" that survivors inflict and the own killer has as basekit like blast mine, DS or the slowdown on hit for DH.
They don't need to bring back the incapacitation effect, but it should have being changed for something equally useful in slowing down generator progress, not giving it an effect that funny enough would be useful only in a slugging build, something they also want to "nerf".
....that is not at all by the same logic tho.
"equally useful" is also problematic as something "equally useful" also entails equally oppressive --- and the whole point of the change and the categorical no to incapacitated by use of perks is that such a degree of oppression should be reserved for killer powers.
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First time seeing Nemo I hated him (about 20 hours into the game 😂) - then I got the RE chapter (cause was replaying all RE parts at the time and wanted Leon) and figured if he's so annoying I might as well try and figure out what his deal is. And somehow he was surprsingly fun and just stuck. I'd never thought I'd be a Nemo main... but I guess I am 😅 I also like Shocktor a lot recently (don't ask me why, it just kinda happened) - but Nemo is still best boi, even after ~800 killer hours.
As for survivors; the first character I played a lot was Leon (again, because I relived the RE hype at the time^^) - and even though I don't play him all that much anymore (he's my BP dump and I don't like playing high prestige characters) he's probably still my fav. Next one up was Felix who I played a lot (I really like that one hair & that blue jacket - I also really like his lore) . But now, after about 1k survivor hours I find myself really enjoying playing Dwight - with the Beanie. Tho, since that's atm texture-less I'm grabbing the other beanie: Quentin. ... So... I guess for survivors it's either sentimental (Leon) or specific cosmetic items (Felix & Dwight).
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not every horror has to be dark and creepy. I do like the "deceptively peaceful) thing and I think Coldwind with the cowtree got that down to some degree. - I would like some more horrifying details tho. Peaceful and reassuring at first glance - but quite unsettling upon closer inspection.
As for Ormond I think it lacks that quality. Even the main Building just looks like it's been closed for a few years. - Place some skeletons in the ski lifts for starters. And maybe add some mokre unsettling things along those lines.
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I don't know which thread it was but Mandy commented relaying the dev's position on the incapacitated status effect and it seems the devs have decided that the whole status effect should be exclusive to certain killer powers. The reason she gave was, iirc, that a status effect that effectively gives you a time out from playing the game altogether and without a condition to end it (you have to wait it out) has been categorically deemed unhealthy for the game. (Other incapacitated status effects are part of a killers power and usually until you do X - like doctors madness where you need to snap out - or extremely short/limited - like doctor's regular shock )
I agree with that.
That being said, I could live with Eruption being an exception from that rule if it was sth like 5/7/9 seconds (though; i don't think that's enough to make it valuable - and any more and we're back to what's above) or required you to do that thing you need to do to get rid of skully's drones before you can do sth else again.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368488#Comment_3368488
what is doing a blendette? I dont think i have heard this one lol
When you look for someone and know theyre there somewhere but you can't spot them. (Also works for things. My keys are regularly doing a Blendette ^^)
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most of the people I know also play dbd so talk is riddled with dbd references and phrases. But a few phrases make it at least to thoght-commentary. Skill issue being one of them as well. "Doing a Blendette" is another one, "Meg things" as well and whenever I'm in the presence of people who for one reason or the other are not a great fan if the "oh my god" kinda exclamations/phrases I often opt for replacing the religious word with "Entity". Idk if its a dbd specific thing but "strong" and "boosted" get used a lot as well. "X is crouch-walking/slow vaulting" is also a common reference to people being slower than makes sense. There are probably more but they don't come to mind atm.
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if you want to bring m1 killers / weaker killers up to what is considered A tier killers you have to do it via changes that do not also benefit the already A tier killers. Kinda like how the HUD helps Solos a lot by telling them what their teamies are up to but provide no new information to swf.
That's the biggest issue with map redesign I have - if maps are reworked high mobility killers have to be reworked as well. Because cheanges that benefit M1 killers also benefit them.
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Would it have been more constructive to say "people who play killer" instead of "killer mains"? - Sure. - Or even more diplomatically to definitely avoid making people feel addressed who aren't even addressed: "To those killer players who do this: please, just stop [doing it]." --- Is it worth trying to turn it into some "gotcha" moment and going on and on and on and on about it with a side of whatabout-ism? - No.
This happens. And this scenario, where the killer unnecessarily draws the match out or does some kind of equally unnecessary bait-game, is something only killers can do. This is an instance of things that make the game unfun and is, in my book, toxic behaviour.
Does this mean there are no other instances of toxic behvaiour? No. Does this mean only killers can exhibit toxic behaviour? No. - Does that in turn mean every post addressing/recounting an instance of toxic behaviour of one category also has to address every other category of toxic behaviour? - Also no.
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I would be extremely curious what my surv matches are like (since atm it's really just those five on repeat - and every sixth is one of the remaining dozens of killers) --- and I'd play Nemo, Shocktor, Bing Bong Boi and Evan as usual.
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For me it's the exact other way around. - I assume because I play killer a lot less than survivor by now.
So, coming from playing killer a lot you do have quite a lot of game sense already and do know the maps and all kinds of things about the game as a 20-hour-or-so survivor that 20-hour-or-so-lobbies that only have those 20 hours total don't have. Play survivor for 700 hours, on a regular basis, and then see if you still have the same opinion.
From what I can tell is that you eventually reach a point as killer where you see a bunch of BNP and you can tell survivors are either just d*ing around to have fun or go for max gen efficiency. Very little inbetween. - And you reach a point as surv where you can flip a coin whether the killer goes for tunneling/camping or full gen delay. Reaching that point as either killer or surv is not particularly fun.
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@Xernoton said:
I'm not unhappy about Eruption getting a nerf. It was pretty disgusting to play against. But the nerf that BHVR settled on is something I can't really get in my head.
They created a gen regression perk that incentivises slugging. I can't be the only one who thinks that this is not the way to go, or am I?
That it incentivises slugging is something I haven't actually thought about - but ye, now that you mention it, it does. I mean, sure, it's nice to know where survivors are on gens - but if you really want to make use of the aura reading you want to use it with Lethal and you won't want to pick the survivor up because by the time you hooked them the aura is gona and the survivor probably as well. - And for people who want to not have their slug go to waste Knockout would come in really handy. And while not particularly strong, Knockout has to be one of the most obnoxious killer perks. ------- Well, we'll see what people do with Eruption from here on out.
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363609#Comment_3363609
Nurse doesnt have highest kill rate, but is always the highest tier.
That is because Nurse is a free starter killer and there are disproportionally more people who don't know how to play Nurse than there are people who know how to play her. - To illustrate the difference: Take someone who has pretty good game knowledge and really knows how to play the killer they are playing. Now have them play the killer without perks and add-ons. A really good Nurse will still 4k without too much sweat, while a, say, Doctor without perks or add-ons will not be able to do that. This is what ultimately separates "really good" killers from "really bad" killers; how reliant they are on certain perks and/or add-ons.
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I think the thing with SB (and also the other exhausting perks) is that it's not a flat number of seconds - but a relative amount of time. It extends the chase by, I'd say 25-30% of the survs average chase time when playing a tile/chaining tiles (so disregrding both surprise attacks/being caught in a deadzone, as well as "ShiftW and predrop"). While pure speed/distance is one aspect the arguably more important point is what this distance/speed is used for - and usually that is to get to a tile that you would otherwise not have made.
When I see SB... it's usally about 10-45seconds - depending on whether the user used it to greed a gen and doesn't make a safe tile (literally just catching up) or whether they time it one way or the other to make it to an extremely safe tile as a starting point of the chase (to be fair; if I see someone SBing to, say main on Garden of Joy, I go find someone else).
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I don't want to tag everyone but there seems to be a bit of a misconception. - Quite a few of the replies are about how no killer wants to play against swf. By that logic that recent experience should be my default experience. It isn't. The high prestige numbers seem to be the deciding factor --- even though they kinda don't mean anything, other than that character being that player's favourite. (Given that the prestige system is around for over half a year and with bloodwebs being cheaper it doesn't even require an excessive amount of hours over that time to have one character with high prestige by now.)
--- But even that aside and with the matchmaking prioritising fast Lobbies over accurate lobbies, there is a limit to what is acceptable. - And going against people who are on a very different skill level is not fun for anyone involved. And safe for not dodging yourself and manually re-q-ing every time a surv or killer dodges there is no way for a player to avoid this situation. As killer you might have a shot at identifying gross mismatches when you can see the hours in the profile - but as surv the first clue you get it is a level one or two perk --- or a playstyle that screams "I don't know what I'm doing" --- and by that time it's too late.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366760/lobby-dodging-and-backfill-lobbies
I've been preaching this on several threads for a while now, but it gets little traction. We are indeed doing it to ourselves, knowing that in an effort to avoid perceived "harder" or "unfair" matching we are likely throwing a newby killer to the wolves. Be it a protest of SWF or the prestige system or too many tool boxes or whatever, it does end up being selfish behavior in the end.
All the dodging becomes a nightmare for those killers, and worsens an already rough new player experience big time. Hiding prestiges either to post-game or even completely would help dodging for that reason, but not curb it in general. And in the past I've been guilty of dodging lobbies too, even though I cannot check profiles and such, until I realized the impact on matchmaking.
Yee, for me it was hard to grasp just how big the impact was. - Like I said; when swf-ing we occasionally get dodged, 3-4 times per 10-ish lobbies, and only every once in a while that leads to a complete mismatch. And I always thought when people talk about it or try to bring attention to it on the forums they were talking about numbers in that ballpark. Never had I imagined it was this extreme - and this consistent o.o
Makes me glad I never got into the habit of dodging as killer. Hiding prestige completely is something I personally wouldn't object to - but there is this "bragging rights" thing going on with which prestige got advertised when it was introduced - and post match screen is imo fine. Tbh, I sometimes feel relieved when we got kinda stomped and I see a really high prestige number on the killer. Then I go "well, that kinda makes sense".
@Bwsted said:
Backfill is by practical terms unlimited, regardless if killer or survivor. It's anyone who's in queue at that moment.
I think the worst instance I ever had was when I got a lobby of survivors all in the thousands hours, one leaves, I get an instant backfill and the player had 18h total playtime.
No matter how bad queues are, they should've never been matched against me as killer, even on my lowest mmr characters.
Yes, as killer I've observed lobbies being all over the place as well - but I usually don't care what lobby I'm in and don't check (as in I'm usually tabbed out after hitting the Q button and tab back in when I hear the offerings or the match-start-sound). It's usually in the match when I realise that the default Dwight is actually a baby. And I also agree: This should never happen.
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I think flat out doubling the shards you get - or halving the prices in the store - is not in BHVRs interest because, as has already been pointed out, it doesn't incentivise spending real money.
However, there is a gap between new players and veterans; as a vet you pretty much always have enough shards to get whatever you want but as someone new to the game you quickly get the impression that you have to either spend upward of 50€/$ to get your hands on the perks you need to really play the game - or grind for several hundred hours before you actually get to play the full game. - This makes the game rather unappealing to new players.
What is in BHVRs interest is to give new players a bit of a jumpstart and incentivise them to come back for a period of time long enough to form a habit. Easy: A new player get's a log in reward for the first 30 days they log in - make it, idk, 500 shards. For each day in a "log in streak" they get an additional 50 shards per day in the streak upon completing their first match of the day. So, after those 30 days a new player who logged in every day and played at least one match could get a total of 15k+21.8k=36.8k total shards. That's 4 characters - probably 5 if the player played about an hour a day for those thirty days. Getting 5 characters within a month is a good place to start. You need to level those characters to unlock the perks and will gain more shards in the mean time. "Filling the gaps" with real money is always more appealing than "feeling like you have to buy your way in". At least that's how I see it.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360881#Comment_3360881
"idfk where anyone is but I need a heal now"
I tried a build that turned me into Circle of Healing. Empathic Connection so injured survivors could see me. Botany Knowledge for heal speed. Bite the Bullet for stealth. Vigil to help them recover from exhaustion (because what else does that perk do??)
What happens? Injured Leon kites the killer into me (successfully). I manage to lose the killer with a god pallet on The Game map, and hop back on my gen. Leon's still injured for minutes on end, despite others being chased and he can see my aura working safely on a gen.
Survivors using Empathic Connection to get healed up? Nah...
Survivors using Empathic Connection to ditch the killer on someone else? Heck yeah!
Ouch, haven't seen that happening yet but sounds like a very dbd moment.
I did see the one or another with empathic connection and while the use I get out of it is usually where that teamie is on a gen (usually also on the exact opposite of the map, so not really worth running to at that point) or where not to run ich chase. - But I could see it also being useful in a variation of the situation you're describing: if the perk user is healthy and fresh hook and a chased, injured is death hook. - In that case it would make perfect sense to run the killer into the perk user (safe for them being on a very far progressed gen or in a reset).
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I usually take a brown medkit with me, sometimes with add-ons - usually without. It's the "idfk where anyone is but I need a heal now to xyz" - this situation usually occurs in late to endgame or if a killer has a back-to-hook-tendency and I and whoever unhooked me need to split up asap.
Now, when the right time to use the medkit is depends very much on the situation. - But it's definitely not the right time when the only reason to use it is "because you have it". That aside: regardless of how the heal occurs there are situations where healing is not the way to go in general. Except if you just want to farm benelovent points - which is fair enough, I guess but I don't blame anyone for not partaking.
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@Mr_K said:
Staple? Haven't seen one in weeks.
You're probably not around very often then. - The last one was just a few days ago with last replies today. They're not the daily flood of DH-related threads - but there is a new thread about it every other week-ish and pretty consistently. Pretty much everyone agrees, so they usually don't get much traction and get drowned out by more controversial topics after a few days or a week or so --- until someone makes a new.
@YOURFRIEND said:
How about you just click past the pip screen and pretend like you got however many little dots you feel is appropriate? It effects absolutely nothing except some blood points whenever rank resets and who isn't absolutely swimming in BP these days? I honestly dread it because then I have to put on a podcast and spend BP for twenty minutes.
How about you voice your opinion in a less condescending tone?
That being said; many people - me and everyone I know included - cares about pips. Not so much about the grand total at the end of the month but on a match by match basis. And just like the "gg ez" of a player who employs scummy/toxic tactics is adding insult to injury, a de-pip after something entirely out of your control happened is also adding insult to injury. The difference is that the latter is literally built into the game - when it doesn't serve an actual purpose anymore. (Safe from discouraging DCing / AFKing)
Additionally, since escapes/sacrifices aren't a particularly good measurement of how well you did in a match the next best thing are the emblems. They are the game giving you feedback on how well you did in certain aspects. - If it actually worked, that would be great. But certain mechanics inherent to the game make it impossible for you to get points in certain categories - no matter how well you play.
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@Mytea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357836#Comment_3357836
not totally! u can also get a dc due to a bug in the game, your internet dies, you got a power outage or windows blue/black screen or whatever. a dc doesn't equal a dc. you would still be punished if it wasn't ur fault which happend to me yesterday btw. when i dropped down a lawnmower on coldwind farm and my game froze for whatever reason. i could only alt + f4 out of the game while i still had the game sound with the constant chase music. in result i got a depip. for what reason did i get a depip? there was no other way to solve this bug in the game, but to alt + f4 (dc) out of the game.
It's about striking the right balance as pips serve two purpsoes. First, to reward time spent in game. Gaining pips is supposed to reflect time invested into the game (as stated by BHVR). So in a way "time spent playing = pips". However, with how many things related to match-participation (or lack thereof) that determine whether you pip or not being out of your control the bare minimum should be that "time spent playing = - pips" definitely isn't a thing. In respect to the first purpose you are right, being disconnectd due to the game crashing etc. should not result into a depip because you still spent time playing and intended to continue playing. - But then comes the second purpose of de-pipping: to punish behaviour that is detrimental to game health by disturbing the natural flow of the match. AFK-ing and DC-ing are the two ways this can happen that are not contained in the game mechanics (as opposed to e.g. taking chances and failing skillchecks on hook. That is part of the game mechanic). I would be all for it if the game could tell if you pressed alt f4 because the game got stuck/bugged/whatever, if you PC crashed, there was a power outage or your wifi died - but alas, the game is not able to tell. It only knows you lost the connection - for whatever reason - in the middle of the match, preventing it from playing out in the intended way. This result is what leads to the depip. Arguably, making it less appealing to disturb the match via DCing/AFKing by keeping the depips is a reasonable measure. It does kinda suck to be the collateral damage, I give you that - but as long as the game can't tell the reason for the disconnect that's the best it can do.
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The lingering hitbox is part of how the M2 works - it is just that the vfx doesn't match how the power works and that Nemo is one of the killers that can use high ping to their advantage. I give you that the vfx should match the hitbox; aka it should move with the hitbox so you at least know what hit you
But that doesn't make it a bug. (Same as hitting over certain obstacles; Nemo's M2 hitbox is like a "beam" continuously extruding away from him in the direction he is facing; it has a set length, height and duration. whatever it hits first gets substracted from the beam, so if the hitbox of the survivor is just that tiny sliver higher than the obstacle (even if the survivor model is visually smaller than the obstacle) the survivor will get hit. This is also why depending on the window and timing you can get hit through windows and why sometimes you will get hit over pallets; depends on the angle and where you crouch to dodge.)
But it's not like it's just Nemo where what you see on screen doesn't match the power's hitbox. The same is true for e.g. Wesker ("starfishing" in the air because collision hitboxes for his M2 are not model-sized) and Huntress (hatchet's hitboxes are spheres leading to the hatchet's hitbox on the vertical line being about three times as wide as the model representing it).
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Two things should give you a de-pip, and only these two things: DC-ing and afk-ing for prolonged periods of time (collecting three crows). Everything else is just the game showing a middle finger to the players.
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I don't use flashlights as survivor and get somewhat annoyed by the whole pallet-blind thing when playing killer --- but that doesn't make flashlight toxic. Even if blinded just break the pallet. By the time it's broken you can pretty much see again anyway. -- And if the bright screen from the blind bothers you... I guess bringing Lightborn might solve your personal issue with flashlights.
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My last eight matches had a whopping one match that went normally. six had hard tunneling at five gens. One had hard three genning. --- If I had a number of those matches and am at zero pips anyway I go lmao, aight, guess it's time to just f* around and stay in a match solely for the fun of it - and if it's not fun I go gg next. No point whatsoever in trying if you don't want to end up in a very poor mental state. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ And since the majority of matches go like that, ye - i do think the majority of surv isn't trying. Why should they?
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changes to medkits that are for healing others instead of yourself go the wrong way. The one and only reason to take a medkit is to not have to search the whole map for a teamie or a chest with a medkit. There is a certain kind of vet that seems to belittle players who rather play uninjured than injured by saying sth along the lines of "survs have just forgotten how to play with one health state" - but somehow seem to conveniently forget that quite a number of changes over that past year have made it so that starting a chase injured is a recipe for desaster - safe for very confident dh/sb+resilience players maybe.
The one issue yellow and ranger medkits have is the sheer amount of heals you can get out of them. Then again; Ranger medkits are also incredibly rare. I'd say keep the ranger medkits - but change esp. the yellow medkits. When taking rarity into account ranger medkits aren't super broken and slight changes like taking away some charges or taking away some speed should suffice (not sure about others but on average I get 1 ranger medkit per prestige level... which really isn't a lot). The same can't be said for yellows; there is one in nearly every other bloodweb and the add-ons are very abundant as well, giving you two to three rather speedy heals whenever you need them. That is a bit much. For the yellows either the charges have to be reduced so that you would have to really stack addons in addition to taking streetwise/BTL to get three heals out of it - or reduce the speed.
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A handful of people I'd consider pretty good friends now - also my SO. I don't know what it is but I think through dbd you sometimes get a shortcut to seeing the worst of people/how people react to poopy situations/what kinds of emotional responses they have to stuff. There is just very little keeping up appearances going on so meeting "the real people" is somehow way easier, if that makes any sense. Like, seeing what makes some of them super tilted and how they react when very frustrated gives me a very good impression of what they are really like and where they direct negative emotions. Idk, I've been on the receiving end of people turning "hostile" toward friends when in a bad spot / facing a poopy situation and I really don't like it. Do that once and I'm surprised, do it twice and I'm wary - do it three times and I'm gone.