GlamourousLeviathan
GlamourousLeviathan
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868044#Comment_3868044
Yes, please. I wish BHVR would tie gen speed repair to number of Survivors alive. It would be better for everyone.
I am baffled by how they haven't done this yet. It would help solve the solo queue issue pf bad teammates, since having one die early due to incompetence wouldn't mean that you can't escape anymore.
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You can't end tunneling without getting rid of the basic incentive structure of: 4 survivors are more efficient on gens than 3. That is just how it is and any attempt at simply nerfing tunneling is a direct nerf to killer since it is a required strategy.
Gen speed has to be reformulated so that when 4 survivors are alive, the gen speed is much slower than it is now, but when one dies, it increases to a bigger speed compared to today, and progress it further for 2 man and 1 man left. Only then tunneling can become an obsolete strategy. Other than that, it is simply trying to dry an ocean.
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I like the rework overall. I never thought Freddy was weak to be honest, but the buffs are definitely welcome.
My only complaint is about the pallets. Survivors can see the difference between them and real pallets, they take a long time to explode, making them very easy to react. Also when putting them down, the blood explosion doesn't injure you, or puts you to sleep, which wouldn't have been a problem if they didn't stun you, which also makes Enduring mandatory on him. Finally, survivors can still put the pallet down when they are about to explode, which I am pretty sure it's a bug.
I am not saying that he is bad overall, it is just that it makes no sense using this part of the power, kinda like wolf form for Dracula.
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@Grigerbest said:
There are so many fun builds, killers and fun perks to use in this game, but it all goes to the waste because of the gen speed.
The higher you go with your MMR - the more you realize that gen regression perks are the best.
I'm tired using them on my killer matches.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OYM0OJFG5X8P/1.gif
It's 3 choices:
- Use 3-4 gen regression perks.
- Use Nurse\Blight.
- Hardcore tunnel 1 out.
False, sometimes you need to do all 3 of those things together.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865797#Comment_3865797
Shes a chase killer. She was even buffed last year which nobody asked for. I am gonna disagree with you…That's just me.
Yeah, that's the issue, she is a chase killer and only does that. They buffed her last year but it didn't solve her main issue. In my opinion, they should make her 115% and get rid of her lullaby. It does not make sense her having all those debuffs while Artist and Plague, which are far superior projectile killers, have a normal terror radius and speed.
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I think that it will be a buff. It is a pretty inconsequential status effect and hardly impacts the game.
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Nurse is a kinda of a problematic killer to balance, although today, even though she is still the best killer in the game, she is pretty balanced all things considered.
Both the killer's and survivor's perks were good, and were never problematic, with some of them still being used to this day, namely Balanced Landing. Thanatophobia has been pretty useless since the nerf, but it was decent for a long time.
The map was not good, but compared to the standards of the time, it was not the worst. Nowadays, after the rework, it is still a bad map, but again, not the worst.
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Hag is a solid killer, and has aged well. She is cannot be considered the best in the game, but she is not bad compared to the rest of the cast.
Her perks were really interesting at the time, as they introduced the hex mechanic to the game. For years, Ruin was a cornerstone of the meta, and even though today it is a useless perk, it held the metagame together for a long time. Another perk of her Devour Hope, is still good and a fun perk to use, which discourages killers from camping, which is always good.
Ace is a nice survivor. It is kinda weird how he has a built in Iron Will, but is not that extreme. His perks are not good, but fortunately there is nothing offensive there.
As for Grim Pantry, it is one of the few old maps that never got reworked, and compared to everything else we had at the time, it was not a bad map.
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Halloween, although was the first license, was the most chaotic chapter they ever released. 2 of Laurie's perks were completely broken and needed to be reworked multiple times, and nowadays, DS is still a busted perk.
Myers on the other hand was kinda better, having only one perk that was reworked due to being unhealthy (Dying Light). But speaking on his power, it is absolutely atrocious, making him the worst killer in the game... Unless he brings tombstone, which is a very unhealthy mechanic.
In that sense, the Shape sits in a terrible place where he half of the time can't do anything, and other half of the time he just deletes one survivor from the game.
And finally there is Haddonfield... A map so atrocious that had to be reworked twice for how bad it played.
Yeah, overall, Halloween was the messiest chapter.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865742#Comment_3865742
Huntress by far is not a weak killer. I don't think there is anyone in this community that thinks she is a weak killer. Obviously other than you xD
Every time a new killer gets released she drops a tier. Otz for example puts her in mid tier nowadays, and Tru3 Talent says she is one of the weakest killers in the game, which I agree.
She has no map pressure, is a 110% killer, with a giant lullaby that always tells where she is. The only thing she has going for her is a goodish chase, which does not compensate by her abysmal map presence. Before, she could kinda compensate with strong gen defence, but since gen defence is now weaker than ever, she has no chance of viability.
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Doctor is a great killer. Even though he had to get reworked, he is pretty excellent, having antiloop, tracking, and slowdown. His perks are lacking though. Overwhelming Presence is useless, M&A didn't age well, and Overcharge is not useful anymore since the nerf.
Feng on the other hand is one of the most popular survivors, and her perks are excellent for beginners, with Lithe being meta while never being problematic.
Finally, Lery's is one of the fairest maps in the game, so no complaints there.
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I love David. He is probably my second favourite survivor. But gosh, his chapter stinks. Huntress is a very weak killer compared to today's standards and her perks are the worst in the game.
Not to mention that Mother's Dwelling was such a big map that needed to be reworked, and it is still very big.
Also, Dead Hard has been one of the most problematic perks in the game, so there is that.
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Barbecue and Chilli, Franklin's Demise, and Knock Out are all decent perks. BBQ was meta for a really long time and Franklin's is still a favourite of mine.
Regarding the killer, he was quite problematic, as the only thing he could do decently was camping, so much so that he needed to get reworked. He is better now, but I still think his power is not very interesting and fun to play as.
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Not to mention that Knight's guards despawn if you enter a portal and Victor can't follow you through it.
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Are commenting on how not scary she is? Well, we already got Trickster and Skull Merchant in the past, which were both much less intimidating than her. Also, Wesker and Dracula are not really creepy.
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Plague and Huntress really bother me by having no unique chase themes, as they both got custom menu music.
Pig, Leatherface, nada Freddy depend on their licenses, and considering how stingy Freddy and Bubba's licenseholders have been with BHVR I am not sure they are coming anytime soon. However, Freddy's rework is coming, so maybe we will get a surprise.
On Pig's case, I am actually surprised she didn't get unique music when they released her tome.
Also, Myers also needs unique menu music.
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@Jtflorencio said:
I really wanted a buff, the killer chase perks, most of them are useless or easy to counter
Bamboozle- Increase Vaulting Speed 6/12/18%.
Brutal Force- Increase 15/20/25%
Dark Arrogance- Pallet Stun +15% - Increase Vaulting Speed 20/25/30%
Fire Up- Increase 4/5/6%
Superior Anatomy- Increase Vaulting Speed 35/40/50%It would be a great option to stop seeing so many killers with 4 anti gen perks
Here are other chase perks that really should get buffs:
Dissolution should have a longer duration and the icon of the perk shouldn't be revealed to survivors.
Spirit Fury should give the killer a smaller stun time at base. As it is now, it is only usable with Enduring.
Hubris should have a longer duration. Very few killers can actually cat h the survivor with a M1 after a stun.
Beast of Prey should trigger bloodlust faster. Bloodlust takes a long time to activate, which makes this perk really useless.
Game Afoot should have a longer duration of the haste. As it is, this perks does basically nothing.
Two Can Play shouldn't even be a hex. The effect is too underwhelming to justify it being removable from the game.
Machine Learning should work like Eruption, in that way that you can apply to multiple gens. Triggering is very annoying and counter intuitive, because if you are kicking a gen, you are trying to protect it not allow it to get done.
Nemesis should apply a better effect to the survivor. Oblivious isn't really used in chase. If it was Hindered or Exhaustion it would give the perk a reason to be used outside of gimmick builds.
Unbound has the same problem as Dissolution, in which the duration is far to small to get any consistent usage out of it. Also, 5% haste is kinda insignificant for a perk that only lasts 10 seconds.
Play With Your Food suffers with the way you get stacks. Trying to find your obsession and wasting time losing chases with them is really detrimental. Either make it work with any survivor, or have you get stacks by hitting the obsession.
Unrelenting is kinda a bad designed perk. If you made the attack cooldown work against the endurance effect it would give the perk some niche.
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Also, something about the stats that have always bothered me is that when they did the "all MMR vs high MMR", they did not specify what percentage of players were. In League of Legends for example, you can see the win rate of each character by their rank, be it either Bronze, Silver, Platinum, Master, Challenger... BHVR never tiered the kill rates on that. So we don't actually know how the best 10% or the best 1% killers perform.
Now, the only thing that may make that difficult for BHVR is that each killer has a different MMR, so it is possible that weaker killers like Myers and Trickster don't even have stats in the really high MMR tier because they simply don't reach that point.
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Slugging is an interesting case. It wasn't a hot topic of discussion until some time ago. When you look into the story of slugging, it hasn't received any buffs or new perks that collaborate with the playstyle. Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Deerstalker, and Third are old perks. The only toy that can be considered new that helps the killer in that regard is Forced Hesitation, which isn't really great.
In fact, there is no apparent reason as to why killers are slugging more recently, until you look into the fact that the perks that encourage hooking have been severely nerfed, and the best survivor perks all benefit from getting hooked. So, as killer, it has become more optimal to not waste time hooking so you get the pressure you had in the past with gen defence perks, and won't have to deal with OTR, DS, STB, Deliverance, Resurgence, and exhaustion perks resetting.
Now, it is still not a strong playstyle. First you are putting all your eggs in one basket. Either you menage to slug all survivors, or you lose the game. Also, survivors have tons of answers to slugging. Unbreakable and Exponential are the most obvious ones, but Soul Guard, Flip Flop, Power Struggle, Buckle Up, WGLF, and Tenacity also help against it. Therefore, it is still the riskiest way to play game.
In that sense, it would be unfair to simply nerf a playstyle that isn't even strong at the moment, without compensating killers for it with that give an incentive for them to hook survivors. Pop Goes the Weasel, Pain Resonance were all excellent in the past and they really did make the trouble of hooking survivors worth it. Buffing them would solve the problem partially.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860010#Comment_3860010
Your logic makes no sense. It's like if I park my car somewhere and you come and tell me that you want the parking spot for yourself. Of course I am not gonna give you the spot, I arrived there first. You can either wait for me to finish my shopping or go find another parking spot. Getting the 4k is the same thing.
Ok so lets put it this way: Its like the killer is shopping yea and is at the check out with the 4th survivor being the next in line and the 3rd being the clerk. Killer goes "ohh wait I forgot something, let me just go grab it real quick" so the clerk (survivor 3) and the next in line (survivor 4) must now wait for the killer to come back "real quick". If you couldn't tell, "real quick" is sarcastic. That parking analogy makes no sense to us as thats not whats happening.
The objective of the game is getting the maximum amount of kills you can, so of course killers want to get the 4k and they are going to use the most efficient way of doing that. If you put an AI to play killer and task it with killing the survivors, they are gonna slug for the 4k because that's their objective.
While we won't deny some are desperate for the 4k, but some of us don't give a F (for example the 3 of us). None of what you said explains why we should be sweating for the 4k. At all. This is your reasons why you would. We know we got enough points (we usually float around the cap cause we don't really spend much often), we know we killed a majority of the survivors, we know we have a very good chance of finding hatch and guarding doors, we know if they get out its mostly due to luck. Its more than enough for us. Also funny enough, we'd think an AI killer would hook survivors unless they immediately saw the last simply cause it would be both easy to program and more efficient.
Yes, slugging for the 4k is boring, but some people find the satisfaction of a perfect game even more satisfying. Fun is not universal.
Reread the above.
As I said, at this point in the game the killer is giving the shots, you as the last survivor want to escape as much as the killer wants to 4k, if you didn't, you would just give up. So the survivor is just as guilty as the killer for prolonging the game.
If the killer is "giving the shots" then the responsibility falls on the killer….thats how "giving the shots" works in every society that we know of sans hypocrisy. If they do it they do it but own up to it.
Your analogy is wrong because on this scenario the people on the line can simply ignore the person who went to get something and follow their lives. The parking spot analogy is much more precisa because the killer has something by right, and the survivor has to react to it.
Be mindful that the killer giving the shots does not mean that the last survivor has no agency. He can very well give the killer what he wants, but he decides not to. Therefore, the last survivor and the killer are in an agreement on what is going to happen: The last survivor is going to bleed out and the last one is gonna dispute for the hatch. They both are responsible for the time waste.
I don't slug for the 4k unless it's an adept, but I don't condemn people who do it because it's part of the game's objective. An AI would do the same thing, simply because it doesn't have feelings to feel bothered by the waste of time and it would want to kill as many survivors as possible. The problem is the incentive structure that makes slugging for the 4k the most effective way to get it consistently.
And you know what is hypocritical? Pretending that the last survivor who is hiding and letting the other one bleed out isn't acting on its own interests as well.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859923#Comment_3859923
Because the killer is giving them the proposal. You can either help the teammate and give the killer a more reasonable chance of getting the 4k, or you can hide and let the survivor bleed out. If you hide, it's your choice as survivor. You want to get the hatch and the killer wants to get the kill. It's that simple.
Therefore that makes it the killers responsibility no? As killer you still have a major chance of closing hatch which forces that 4th survivor to stop hiding on pains of in game death.
Also, ask yourself why gambling for the last kill with the terrible hatch mechanic is a reasonable course of action? If you should strife for the 4k every game, you should take the actions that give you the most chance of getting it.
First because we showed our own superiority to sooth our egos by killing a majority of the team. Second it speeds up the game so we can get into the next match quicker, not even thinking about the survivors here, this is pure selfishness. Third we've been around since doc came out and seen how hatch was before, currently this is much better (if a little sad we cant do that 4 man hatch out). Fourth, why should we strive for the 4k every time? Unless pissed off we half arse everything and still manage to do very well and often have fun, so why should we sweat? This is a game for fun. Sweating every match don't seem like fun to the 3 of us. So tell us exactly: why we should make ourselves less happy?
Also, let's say they make Unbreakable basekit. In this scenario, the killer would just slug the survivor over and over to get the 4k. Only 2 survivors are not going to repair 2 or 3 gens by themselves, and if they come close to finishing the last gen, the killer will just hook. Otherwise, they will keep slugging, but the difference is that they will have to down the survivor some extra times.
…soooo where'd this train of thought come from? Don't think any Rulebreaker mentioned anything about this.
Your logic makes no sense. It's like if I park my car somewhere and you come and tell me that you want the parking spot for yourself. Of course I am not gonna give you the spot, I arrived there first. You can either wait for me to finish my shopping or go find another parking spot. Getting the 4k is the same thing.
The objective of the game is getting the maximum amount of kills you can, so of course killers want to get the 4k and they are going to use the most efficient way of doing that. If you put an AI to play killer and task it with killing the survivors, they are gonna slug for the 4k because that's their objective.
Yes, slugging for the 4k is boring, but some people find the satisfaction of a perfect game even more satisfying. Fun is not universal.
As I said, at this point in the game the killer is giving the shots, you as the last survivor want to escape as much as the killer wants to 4k, if you didn't, you would just give up. So the survivor is just as guilty as the killer for prolonging the game.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859945#Comment_3859945
It's crazy how simple verifiable statistics debunk every single sentence in this message.
The killrates directly increased from 50% to 60% following 6.1. This is literally a statement from the developers themselves. Wow very survivor-sided, almost 1.2x less chance to escape. And they stated that their goal was to make the game killer-sided with 6.1.
Pop still has the 2nd highest pickrate (17%) which is almost double of DH (11%), OTR (7%) and DS (9%). So much for a "killed perk" and so much for "Mega Decisive Strike". Lol. It's not even in the top 10, while Pop is top 2.
Now I'm just wondering if you somehow are not aware that statistics like these exist - which mean you basically never read anything BHVR publishes - or if you just lie and hope people can't read themselves. In the latter case, that'd be quite bold, because we're literally on a forum.
The immediate aftermath of 6.1 was positive. Thanatophobia, Eruption, Pain Resonance, Call of Brine, and Overcharge were still excellent at that time. Nowadays, these perks, with the exception of Pain Resonance, don't exist anymore.
Also, if you have followed BHVR statistics for a while, you should very well know that the stats don't really represent the reality of the game. Skull Merchant was the top killer in kill rates for a looooong time. Freddy and Pig are still top killers according to the stats, while Nurse and Blight have mediocre or low kill rates.
The stats don't really count for survivors giving up, messing up because of altruism, or just being absolute potatoes. If the devs based everything out of stats, Nurse would still have 5 blinks.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859983#Comment_3859983
It's not just the gen speed, it's the gen speed on top of everything else.
Less time spent wiping your weapon and staring at the pallet/wall/gen you're kicking means you can get back into chases quicker, overall. Not by much, but it adds up.
Actual immediate regression from kicking generators gives you more freedom to regress those generators without perks, since the time you spend kicking can be refunded with a direct benefit in more scenarios.
Shorter post-hit sprint from survivors means they can waste less of your time by just getting hit and holding W, shortening chases overall and strengthening the value of deadzones since they're harder to escape. Shorter chase times means more pressure from hooks, which means the gens take longer overall.
Certain survivor perks being considerably weaker, especially Dead Hard, also contribute to this shortening of chase times for skilled killers and loop into the benefits from the above point.
None of these things are standalone bullet points that are supposed to radically alter the killer experience on their own, they're all part of a layered set of changes that shifted more power towards killers who know how to leverage the slowdown that's present in the game's basic mechanics.
Add in to all of that later changes like 6.7.0 reigning in totally busted self healing, and you have a state of the game that really doesn't require slowdown perks anywhere near as heavily as before. They're still good, so there's still plenty of reason to run them, but you aren't completely boned if you don't have them anymore.
Gen protection may be minimal basekit, but gen slowdown basekit can be extremely potent if you're on the ball.
The less time spent on wiping your weapon and breaking pallets was absolutely inconsequential, as even with those, survivors can still get to the next loop. I mean, if they just hold W like bots and ignore any loop for the rest of the game, maybe these buffs do something. These things save you half a second at best.
The immediate regression is kinda nice, until you realize that it only gives you half of the regression that a survivor gets when missing a skillcheck. It still something, but considering that a survivor's time is less valuable than yours, considering there is 4 of them, gen kicking is essentially a waste of time in most scenarios.
Dead Hard is not weaker by any means. It is harder to use, but is far stronger if you menage to get usage out of it. Old Dead Hard used to either reset a loop or help you get to a pallet, which is now the role of Dramaturgy. New Dead Hard gives you a speed boost if you parry the killer, which is arguably stronger.
Finally, even if self healing was nerfed, overall healing suffered very little changes. Mangled nerf was a big one, making the status effect basically useless on most killers. Also, being injured imposes no penalty to repairing gen speed, so if healing was really slow, seeing survivors go for gens injured would be much more common. But survivors are still healing really fast and doing gens still very fast. There are games that last only 3 minutes.
Gen speed is just as busted as ever.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859970#Comment_3859970
Gen defence is significantly less needed than before 6.1.0, specifically because of a combination of factors including the total generator time at base going up, chase times overall going down, self healing being significantly reigned in so pressure from injuries matters more, and methods of speeding generators up being toned down. Most, albeit not all, of those things happened in 6.1.0 or very soon after.
Eruption gives 10% on multiple gens at once, which is why it has a slightly lower number than some other perks. It's the same idea as Surge, which has a low number but can hypothetically affect multiple gens- except Eruption has a bigger number and can realistically affect more gens. I'll happily grant that Eruption is a little killer-specific, but on the killers who can use it well it's perfectly serviceable.
Pain Res isn't only good compared to everything else, it's just flat out very good. Eighteen seconds off a gen on top of the slowdown that you get from spreading your pressure off a hook is very nice, especially since Pain Res is guaranteed to affect the generator that you'd need it to affect the most.
Remember, gen defence perks exist to support your basekit slowdown, not replace it. They always operate in tandem with the slowdown you get from playing well.
Absolutely not true. Yes, gen speed got nerfed but only 10 seconds, that does not compensate the fact that basically every gen defence perks that mattered got nerfed hardly. The only gen defence that was never nerfed were Surge, Oppression, and Dying Light, which are all underwhelming when compared to old Pop, and Pentimento, which needs another perk to function. Also, gen regression got nerfed by imposing a limit on 8 regression actions per gen, which severely hinders Eruption since it consumes 2 actions on usage. Also, the fact that you have to kick gens to make it work really hinders you since, as killer, you have to really measure your time and kicking a gen really slows you down. Overall, Surge is vastly superior to Eruption and is not even that good.
As I said, Pain Resonance is good, just when compared to everything else. OG Pain Resonance was much better, since it allowed you to get 15% regression out of every hook. Pop Goes the Weasel, OG Ruin (the skillchecks one) were also much more effective as regression. Call of Brine was also better, not to mention Eruption, which made the survivors do no gens for 25 seconds. Current Pain Resonance does basically nothing compared to the old regression perks.
Gen Defence is still needed because base gen protection is basically non existent.
@BorisDDAA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859967#Comment_3859967
Bet you complained about 5 seconds bt too
5 seconds BT is fine. It is strong and became basekit. What isn't fine is 80 seconds BT lol
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859945#Comment_3859945
That's a little skewed, don't you think?
The user above already detailed all the other things killers got that haven't yet been changed, so I'll point out that the basekit changes and perk changes from 6.1.0 were supposed to make slowdown perks less necessary, and they succeeded. The fact that slowdown perks are weaker (kinda, we still have Pain Res as a powerhouse) is fine because you don't need them to be anywhere near as strong.
Also, Eruption is still a good perk.
Gen defence is still as needed as ever. Eruption is basically a useless perk, as the only benefit it gives is 10% regression, which is... A missed skillcheck as a survivor. Pain Resonance on the other hand is good... If you compare it to everything else that is crap now. It only saves you 18 seconds per hook, only 4 times.
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@ProHillbillyMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859945#Comment_3859945
90 second generators, healing perks nerfed, self care, boon, medkits. Killers not having to worry about DH first chase, smaller speed boost time after getting hit. DS nerfed to 4s and not working in endgame, prove nerfed, mft nerfed, buckle up nerfed. Map nerfs.
Killers have received tons of buffs to their basekit.
OTR being buffed is a profit for survivors after all those nerfs? Don't make me laugh, you hit the survivor after unhook and the strength of the perk is pretty much gone.+10 seconds when old Pop used to buy you 20...
Healing perks nerfed? Botany was buffed that patch, which you should use with Self-Care anyways. Pharmacy also got buffed, and WGLF got reworked for the better.
DS got nerfed to 3 seconds, and was still a meta perks. Then the devs decided to make it 4 seconds and it is still an S tier perk.
Prove Thyself and Buckle Up weren't even touched that patch,. MFT didn't even exist at that time, what are you talking about?
And if you think that OTR isn't a problematic perk, might as well make Resurgence give 100% healing progression, and Second Wind activate instantly, since OTR is also a free health state after a hook.
Also, for this conversation, I suggest reading the patch notes of 6.1.0, you can find it in the wiki:
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Here is the aftermath of the 6.1 update
Pop was killed and to compensate we got Eruption and Overcharge, which were good for a while… Before they got nuked.
On the survivor side, Dead Hard got reworked and it is meta. DS got nerfed too, was still strong, and it got buffed again in the future. Iron Will shares the same story. OTR which was a stealth perk became a "give the survivor superpowers, Mega Decisive Strike" perk, and it is still untouched today.
So, out of the update, if you are a killer you ended up at a loss, and if you a survivor, you ended up in a profit.
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I played Overwatch and League of Legends before, and I say with confidence that DbD has the most toxic community. I very very very rarely seen a wholesome moment between players in this game. However, in 2v8 I got to experience some nice moments, as people were generally more chill there.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858984#Comment_3858984
Well seems to have diverged then as it's turned into being about 2 survivors hiding trying to get hatch.
We do got questions regarding something in the op:
Nothing is stopping that last survivor from just conceding up rather than stalemating the game and wasting everyone's time further. At best, you have a slim chance at hatch, while the other survivors sit there and rot. You're just as responsible.
Since the killer can kill that 3rd survivor but isn't how does it make that 4th survivor responsible? Also what makes the 4th giving themselves up in this scenario the reasonable course of action?
Because the killer is giving them the proposal. You can either help the teammate and give the killer a more reasonable chance of getting the 4k, or you can hide and let the survivor bleed out. If you hide, it's your choice as survivor. You want to get the hatch and the killer wants to get the kill. It's that simple.
Also, ask yourself why gambling for the last kill with the terrible hatch mechanic is a reasonable course of action? If you should strife for the 4k every game, you should take the actions that give you the most chance of getting it.
By the point you are slugging the third for the fourth, you have already got the dominance to finish the game. All you need to do is finish it. Why give away the last kill if you have already won?
Also, let's say they make Unbreakable basekit. In this scenario, the killer would just slug the survivor over and over to get the 4k. Only 2 survivors are not going to repair 2 or 3 gens by themselves, and if they come close to finishing the last gen, the killer will just hook. Otherwise, they will keep slugging, but the difference is that they will have to down the survivor some extra times.
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@tjt85 said:
To be honest, I think this is an unworkable idea. Not only would it add more time to the process of queuing up for a trial, it's also not very fair.
Not unless the Survivors also knew which Killer they would be going up against. It's way too strong for the Killer side since they could guarantee a ban for any perk that specifically counters them (even fairly uncommon ones like Iron Will Vs a Spirit). For example, as a Legion I might choose to ban Resilience, Sprint Burst and Made For This in all my games. As Survivor, I might choose to ban Sloppy Butcher if I knew my opponent was a Dredge, but since I'll never know who my opponent is, I could easily end up wasting my ban on something that my opponent would probably never choose. Also, any trial where the Survivors want to ban Lightborn, I'm dodging that lobby as that's my comfort perk.
I don't see how there could ever be a way to make this system fair.
You should be able to guess what killer is on the other side based on the bans. For example, only Legion and Deathslinger would bother banning Made for this, so you could prepare accordingly and not bring Dead Hard and use Sprint Burst instead. This also works for other killers, like Spirit who pretty much would be the only one to ban Iron Will, Twins with Exponential, and Doctor with Calm Spirit.
There is a point as survivor, you wouldn't know which killer it is before banning the perks, and, although it's true that some killers have very specific perks that they use (like how Bubba and Billy depends on Bamboozle) most killers use generic perks, like Pain Resonance, Dead Man's Switch, and Corrupt Intervention, so banning these would pretty much be an universal choice.
The same can be said for killer. You are expected to see WoO, OTR, DS, and Lithe every game. That doesn't mean that you won't eventually run into a Head On squad, or a Hyperfocus squad, in which case you would have wasted all your bans on perks that they wouldn't have chosen in the first place, which is fine.
And even if the survivor team comes with a plan by using the ban system, like bringing flashlights and banning Franklin's and Lightborn, you will know what to expect, and you might even find usage in a underwhelming perk like Overwhelming Presence.
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@Reinami said:
This only works if they make other perks good. Both sides have maybe 10 good perks among them.
The game is effectively balanced around survivors taking anti-tunnel perks, and killers taking gen defense perks.
If they make tunneling impossible from a gameplay perspective so those perks aren't needed, and also buff basekit gen regression to be viable without perks, you could easily rework these perks and you'd see a much larger variety of perks and then maybe you could create such a system.
Both sides have good perks for both of these needs that are powercrept in comparison to the best perks. Babysitter and Blood Rush are both really good perks, but they aren't used because they aren't broken as DS and OTR. On the killer side, Surge, Oppression, and Dying Light aren't terrible either and can be used for that matter.
Also, killers tunnel to diminish gen efficiency at the end, and survivors do gens quickly to get things done fast before the first survivor dies. If you ban the best perks for both matters, it balances itself out to some extent.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858967#Comment_3858967
Encouraging lobby shopping very nice and good spirits know how to play around iron will, there is still pools of blood and predator if you do lose the survivor.
Funny how a doctor never ask for calm spirit or even harden which really busted vs him nerfed but spirit players always want iron will nerfed. If anything it be more justified that docs complain more of two perks that can counter him since he is way weaker than spirit.
I am a Doctor main and I say with confidence that I would not ban Calm Spirit if there was an option to. First because you never see it in the first place, second because it only counters his tracking ability, not his antiloop and his slowdown. On Spirit, I would always ban Iron Will simply because it nullifies your power and makes you go for a guessing game always. Unless they run forward like bots, in which case you can just hear their footsteps.
Also, in a perk ban system, if you see Iron Will get banned, you should assume that it is a Spirit, in which case you can use other perks that help against her, like Quick and Quiet, Dance With Me, Deception.
But alas, this is not a thread about Spirit and Iron Will. I merely used it as an example.
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@Sngfun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858978#Comment_3858978
Now what would happen if no one chooses the same option? How do you think people who cructh on a perk would feel about it?
Each bans one perks, there is no vote. You just choose and ban.
@JPLongstreet said:
We do not need more reasons to encourage lobby shopping, it's far too damaging to matchmaking. They can Killswitch game-breaking perks and have in the past.
One thing has always been clear, and that's that they really want players to run what builds they like. They monitor changes and new perks, and hotfix as they go. I would say many wish they did this quicker, but they do do it.
Do people really use the perks they like, or do most of them simply use meta perks? Mirrored Illusion and Diversion are very fun perks to use, but I never see them.
Also, one of the points of the system is for BHVR to not rush updates, tweaks, hotfixes, or kill switches. By making a ban system, they can take their time to fix anything broken and evaluate if it is really that impactful in the game, since people can just avoid running into said perk entirely if they think it's a problem.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858967#Comment_3858967
Not if you're the tunnel target.
This idea could maybe have been workable if the entire game had been designed with it in mind from the get-go, but that's a path DBD didn't take. At this point, the entire idea is just completely unworkable, especially with a lot of perks patching up basegame issues, most notably survivor perks.
Gen rushing is also a problem that is patched by perks. By getting rid of gen defence perks, killers also get hindered by a lot. Rotative modes such as 2v8 and Lights Out had no perks for both sides and no one complained about that. If you are still losing as a survivor because you don't have DS or OTR when the killer has no gen defense, that's on you.
@Sngfun said:
So how would that work, if a killer perk equals 4 survivor perks?
How do you make the survivors choose which killer perk gets banned?
Each survivor chooses one perk to ban. Like, let's say Felix chooses Pain Resonance, David Dead Man's Switch, Jane Corrupt Intervention, and Cheryl Knock Out. They should also be able to talk in the chat and convince each other on which perks to ban. On the other sides, the killer ban OTR, Lithe, Hyperfocus, and Prove Thyself. That's 8 banned perks in total, 4 for each side.
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@Firellius said:
Killer: *Bans DS, OTR, StB
Survivors: *DisconnectThey can simply lobby dodge. Or use Babysitter, BT, or Blood Rush.
Also, they can ban Pain Resonance, Corrupt Intervention, and Nowhere to Hide. Honestly, that's a fair trade for me.
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I only slug for the 4k when I am trying to get the adept. Imo, they should just rework the hatch mechanic so it's not a coin flip anymore, or just remove it. Killers don't get a mercy kill when all 4 survivors are escaping, so it isn't really necessary a mechanic to help at least on e survivor escape.
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To be honest, they should even add a medium vault on pallets.
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Imo, they should just revert Pain Resonance to the original iteration that gives you 15% on every hook.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858169#Comment_3858169
You genuinely think gutting a killer and leaving them in a deliberately non-viable state expressly to stop people playing that killer as some sort of community scapegoat is appropriate, especially when you've sold cosmetics for that killer - rather than simply tweaking that killer…?
I'm hopeful that you didn't put that right because that's genuinely vindictive.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858177#Comment_3858177
No, SM had some aspects to her kit that were a bit much.
Thing is, simply removing the dormant drone state (this was the problem imho as it could be incredibly hard to spot them mid chase and always gave one scan) would have sufficed.
But it wasn't about balance.
It was about placating community QQ by basically deleting a character indefinitely.
I think that her problem was more to do with perks. If they reverted her now, she would be fine.
And yes, I find it quite outraging that a character that people payed money to and also bought cosmetics for is essentially unplayable now. This is basically fraud at this point.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
Will start off by saying im a tru3 fan been watching him since 2016-2017 off and on through the years
His streak ended by a blatant 4-man comp swf who embarrassingly almost lost to his 1 perk 1 add on clown on the new map
They also 100% sniped him lol
They spammed "Ez" and kept asking tru3 to scrim in end game chat
But it makes me wonder if any of these fun silly challenges are actually possible as a popular streamer when a 4 man can just decide to try and end it at any time
And if they fail? oh well they can try again and the other swf is just waiting for the match to be over for their turn at it
Props to otzdarva for sticking to these challenges i don't watch him but they seem to take forever and they must be brutal to get blatantly sniped through the halfway mark of it or near the end
Tru3 said it best recently "There are people who watch me who would love nothing more then to end my streak"
Tru3 fan here as well, and I kinda agree with him as well when he pointed out in the past that doing killer streaks are pointless, since it only takes one 4 man SWF loaded with syringes, BNPs and OTRs to break your streak. This game is dictated by survivors, so getting a high streak only means you got matched against potato survivors.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858107#Comment_3858107
Hardly absurd. Let's say someone with a massive platform like Hens or Ayrun decided to do this. It always propagates from there.
But address the hypothetical rather than deflecting. Assume that a meme started where people decided that they didn't like playing against Artist. Forget the specifics. A case where a killer that isn't OP (Artist) became disliked for some reason.
Should Artist be given the same treatment as SM?
I'm all for making common sense changes to balance an obviously broken killer, but this wasn't that. This was burning a killer to the ground rather than a few small changes to reign them in, with the express purpose of people not playing that killer - likely for multiple years, possibly indefinitely.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858106#Comment_3858106
This is why the SM gutting is so frustrating.
It's not just Mandy gloating about it on a stream or that it was clearly done in a cynical, meanspirited way that goes beyond a simple overreaction.
It's not that BHVR had their arms twisted by a manipulative and petty portion of the playerbase, setting the precedent that all survivors need to do to get a killer nerfed is creating a meme.
It's that SM mains know, fairly conclusively that 'next year' will turn into 'it's on our radar but no changes are expected at this time', to 'we'll revisit it in 2028'. It's all but a certainty because that's BHVR's track record.
See also: Freddy rework.
SM got nerfed because she was complex, which lead to her having the highest kill rate in the game. Survivors are too lazy to think, so killers that have unintuitive powers which require you to do something besides doing gens end up having high kill rates. Just look at the top killers according to stats, it's generally SM, Sadako, Freddy, Pig, and Pinhead. None of those killers, besides Pinhead, can be considered above average. However, they are still getting reworked and nerfed in basically every patch.
This is terrible, since it limits BHVR in how complex they can make a killer as they always have to account for the brainless survivor player base.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857990#Comment_3857990
her playstyle was enabled by Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Eruption.
Yeah, this is something I have noticed recently as I tried to learn everything I could about the original Skull Merchant.
People seem to overlook the impact this meta had and the fact that it was probably the main culprit behind the "Chess Merchant".
Base gen regression is laughable. A solo repairs a gen 4x faster than the killer regresses it. If they reverted Skull Merchant to her original form, she would not be able to do half of what she did.
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@deckyr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855512#Comment_3855512
smerchant didn't deserve nerfs, people were just too lazy to learn how to play against her. her pickrate was so poor that you never saw her. she wasn't causing any problems and people were complaining just for the sake of complaining - the same people who complain about every killer buff and complain that the game is killer sided. the same people that give up on first hook because a teammate opened a chest or cleansed a totem.
pandering to these crybabies is going to ruin the game. it's already ruining it for anyone who liked playing smerchant.
to put it bluntly, making a bunch of changes with the intention to revisit those changes is a complete waste of developer time. the smerchant nerfs could have been freddy tweaks, but they weren't. someone had to go through and spend time working on smerchant for the purpose of ruining her. the next time they have to change her, they have to waste a bunch of time undoing that.
there's fewer sins greater than wasted dev time. smerchant and houndma's addons are the latest in a long string of examples of dbd developers wasting dev time. they nerf things for the sole purpose of buying time to change them later, and in the meantime, we're just out 1 killer and 1 addon.
there's a killer people have paid for that cannot be played right now to prevent her from winning games, despite the fact noone played her in the first place.
nothing justifies this. there's nothing "deserved" about it. i deserve to play a killer that i own. i do not deserve to feel like any killer i enjoy might get destroyed pending a rework with no defined date.
Even if SM nerfs were justified (which were not) her playstyle was enabled by Call of Brine, Overcharge, and Eruption. So BHVR could either nerf those perks, or nerf SM to solve the "problem".
So they nerfed SM, the slowdown perks that she used, and the basekit gen kicking mechanic.
Imagine being SM and going to the killer monthly meeting to explain that you everyone nerfed.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855770#Comment_3855770
If she'd stalled for 3 minutes longer, it would've been a 4K by default and keep in mind that this was some rando off twitter versus a highly trained competitive team. The fact that it was this even showcases how broken regression was at that time.
No, no one died. But that's because it was one of the most competent and highly coordinated teams on one end, versus what was effectively a bot on the other end. Any survivor team of similar skill would've bit the dust. It is ridiculous to hold that '[Killer thing] isn't OP because you can technically still win against it' with no further inspection.
Survivor is probably one the least skillful thing in gaming. If we get 4 AIs to play survivor on comms, they would probably win the most competent killer for the simple fact that the game holds their hand so much.
The fact that a Skull Merchant managed to keep the game for 40 seconds against a really coordinated survivor team, just shows how much better in skill the killer player is compared to the survivor team, since it's no small feat.
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@SoGo said:
In cases of original locations, this is a great way to do it, as we have seen with the Ichorous Loam offering.
But for original maps, it's simply not possible. I imagine it would require approval from the license holders, and I'm not sure if they would be happey with mingling franchises together.
Aside from that, making a map that wouldn't be so god-awful to play on for the Forsaken Boneyard realm could stop all the people sending themselves to Eyrie.
True, but Dungeons and Dragons for example did not have a problem dividing a realm with Scattered Square, so I think that license holders wouldn't mind that. In any case, getting a new map that isn't awful for Forsaken Boneyard and Springwood would be nice.
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Freddy is due to rework and I expect him to get nerfed right after it, since survivors seem to be incapable of dealing with any killer with 4v1 focused kit.
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Killswitching is too radical for a temporary mode. Generally, BHVR only fixes event issues on the next year, when they come back. I still remember the first iteration of the snowmen, where entering a snowman would make you completely immune to Victor and they fixed it only the year after.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855227#Comment_3855227
Also, funny how you mention OG Skull Merchant when she was clearly not OP. Sure you can argue that she was boring and unhealthy, but ultimately she was not unwinnable.
An absolute brainlet went on auto-pilot against one of the most competent survivor teams in the world and locked them in that match for over 40 minutes and you think that that's 'clearly not OP'?
The team still won, haven't they? If anything this proves that survivors are the overturned role, since they can still break a 3 gen and not have a single one die in a 40 minute game.
As I said, you can say that 40 minute games are boring, but you can't say it makes the killer OP if no one died.
By the way, survivors just play auto-pilot all the time since the role requires no skill to play. It isn't like OG Skull Merchant is any more or less complex.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855084#Comment_3855084
These are not comparable, still. Anti-tunnel doesn't stop the killer from progressing, while the examples you mention would lead to that due to interlinked effects. Being able to seal off one gen for example, would turn a 3-gen into a 2-gen, making it way easier for the killer to patrol and making it impossible for the survivors to progress.
Just as a reminder of what happened when gen regression -was- strong enough to not be 'genrushed' through: That's how we got chess merchant.
Turning a 3 gen into a 2 gen would make the survivor's job less efficient, but not impossible to progress. Good SWF teams generally just break 3 gens by just focusing on two gens, since killer regression is much slower than survivor progression, and also, unless the killer has instadowns, survivors can just brute force a single gen, get hit, run to the other side of the map and heal, repeating the process.
Tunneling is kinda the same, since it makes your game much optimal. If you tunnel a survivor, you permanently cripple the survivors efficiency making it a requirement to win good teams, much unlike focusing on a single gen.
Also, funny how you mention OG Skull Merchant when she was clearly not OP. Sure you can argue that she was boring and unhealthy, but ultimately she was not unwinnable.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854482#Comment_3854482
If gen defense is capable of completely halting or undoing gen progress, then it leaves literally zero ways to win for the survivors since those those gens do need to be done.
Tunnelling is not the only way to win.
There are 7 generators in the match and you only need to repair 5 of them. Let's say Dead Man's Switch now blocks a gen for 80 seconds (Off the Record's time) everyone would be complaining about that, even though I could just say "do another gen".
Also, out of the 4 survivors, the killer needs to kill 3 of them to win, preferably all 4. So yeah, anti tunnel halting the killer's objective is just as problematic as of Pop Goes the Weasel now does 100% gen regression to a gen.