GeneralV
GeneralV
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965316#Comment_3965316
The thing about nurse "nerfs" can kind of be applied to what you said about demo. All that was "nerfed" was her attacking being made a special attack after a blink, and her addons for range being toned down.
"Thats like saying buffing red harring to c tier is a survivor buff"Can kind of be applied in her case. She really didnt get any level of nerfs that did anything in the end.
Same can be said for blight honestly. He has not really moved from the number 2 position in any meaningful way, other than the fact the devs released broken Kaneki. Knocking him down a rung to 3.
I would say kill rates mean … something in the game not nothing.They are definitely tainted by what you talk about though. Give ups/throws/odd plays/just learning counter on a new released killer
By an large though I think they do, on average, show the strength of killers across the entire community.Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong.
I disagree though.
Freddy, is a pretty strong killer all things considered. He has traversal, great chase potential. Everything a killer would need. I think hes an all round great killer.
Just mechanically disappointing for some @GeneralV sorry you dont like what they did to him 😥
And a perfect balance of give and take. He has a teleport/traversal, but cant spam it and it has a good reactionary tell. He has undetectable but a lullaby. He has a slow with ample time to react but also strong enough when it hits to deny loops. He also has the pallet blower upper thing, which I havent seen land in any of my games. And lastly a mechanic for survivors to interact with to counter some of his kit (clocks)
TOP MMR kill rate shown to us being equal with blight does make me throw a bit of question marks. But I think that may just be me being incorrect on killer skill at that level. I do think blight has an extremely low skill floor when compared to freddy. Yet they are equal in kill rates. But nurse has the highest skill floor of them all and its not like we see her kill rate silly low, its actually only 2% lower at 67%.
Devs need to take note of freddy when comming out with killers that have all this traversal, or undetectable, or both. And model them around what freddy does. He has meaningful cooldown and counterplay. Instead of just "getting everything". And still strong in the end.
I think freddy might have a bit of "he was just reworked so people are figuring out how to play against" influencing that high kill rate.
Though nightlight today still has him at number 1.Just mechanically disappointing for some @GeneralV sorry you dont like what they did to him 😥
Thank you, dear friend, but it is alright.
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He isn't.
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@Nazzzak said:
The community tends to minimise just how difficult survivor can be to learn. It's not just 'oh you sit on a gen and learn to loop tiles, easy.' There's literally 39 killers with different powers/items, add ons, etc, that you need at least some basic knowledge of in order to adequately counter and stand a chance. The tutorial is woefully outdated.
Well said, my friend, I agree.
And I might add that this new player experience got increasingly harder as the years went by, because there were many more killers / add-ons / perks and even maps to learn.
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Skull Merchant, but for a very long time my main was Freddy.
Unfortunately both of them are killers with a substantial amount of changes, meaning I don't get the peace of having a favorite who will remain as they are.
But I don't regret the time or bloodpoints I've dedicated to them. I enjoy these killers because they are (or were, in Freddy's case) unique. I don't like dash killers, mid-range M2 or ranged characters like Huntress or Deathslinger.
I like map control, I like the idea of AoE drones that give me information, I like the concept of pulling a survivor into another world and then interacting with them. It is what works for me.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963978#Comment_3963978
You don't regard the survivor experience at all if you want old Skull Merchant back. It is really unanimous in the community that everyone hates her except people that loves to 3 gen.
Skull Merchant 2.0 isn't the one associated with 3 gen. It is the version we had immediately prior to the nerfs, the one after the changes that got rid of her 3 gen playstyle.
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I would like to show my appreciation for that one Orela player on Léry's who looped Vecna for one gen and gave me enough time to finish it, got her Adrenaline heal, then escaped with me through the gate!
Excellent teammate <3
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I just play the characters I enjoy and have fun!
Though unfortunately, the characters I enjoy tend to get a lot of changes. First was Freddy, now Skull Merchant.
Can't seem to take a break, really.
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Not sure if it is needed, considering there isn't really anything in the next patch that will drastically impact repair times.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965127#Comment_3965127
I was always saying version 2.0 was easy to save. There are things to do about it to make her less noob stompy and more setup oriented without gutting her.
But nooo, we drop a nuke on her and yet survivors still hate her, so seems kinda pointless to me.
It's going to end exactly same as Twins rework, especially when they are trying to make it "take control" power like Twins/Houndmaster, so it will be buggy mess beyond saving.I agree. 2.0 accomplished the goal of removing the 3 gen mess and, as I said many times in this very thread, was a good design.
And yes, the design previews, both of them, were awful. They wouldn't have accomplished anything except erasing her identity, which is unacceptable.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965044#Comment_3965044
Yes but you shouldn't need to bring a perk to deal with something this easy to have happen. if I'm chain blinded it's usually from a stun into blind, or a blind as I break a pallet and then blinded again when I look up so I have no chance to avoid it, as I'm animation locked. I think OP wants THAT kind of chain blinding or chain stunning gone, and I agree with it. Survivors can't be stunned twice in succession, why is it okay for Killers to be double stunned like this?
It's also as Reinami points out, an accessibility issue.
Well, I agree, friend.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965082#Comment_3965082
Share Your "Fun To Play Against" Killer Tier List!
There was a thread to dispell or alleviate some of the worry about what survivors/killers or players in general/the community enjoy going against ill post a link to it here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962093
Credit to: @GeneralVHope they bring back SM to a decent power level ♥
Thanks for mentioning me, my friend!
I hope you've found that discussion of mine to be enjoyable, and I hope it shed some light into this matter of which killers are actually liked or disliked.
And yes, here is to hoping Skull Merchant doesn't lose her identity and gets her power back <3
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965102#Comment_3965102
Making her slower on placing drone would suggest her to be setup killer. I would be fine with it, but not really with 1 line, which is always visible.
Give her back 2.0 version of drones (2 lines with stealth mode) and then sure make her slower on placing drones, lower hindred, remove broken.
Would be cool to make it so drone is always in scouting mode if you are in chase to nerf it even more for chase…If making that slightly worse is the price for getting her drones to be functional again, I'm willing to pay it
I am not, stealth is only thing that is kinda saving her now and even in version 2.0. I highly doubt they would buff drones enough to justify her stealth nerfed.
Honestly, my friend, a full revert to 2.0, then this slowdown when placing drones is something I would be fine with, as long as it remained her power and the design previews / reworks are out of the question.
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I agree.
One scanline really hurts her gameplay, imho.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
They've already had one. They spent two years working on it. It was a disaster. They had to revert almost all the changes before it even came off the PTB because the Twins became absurdly OP. More powerful than Nurse.
Yep!
A terrible PTB, my friend. Really glad that rework never made it to live servers.
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Lightborn is basically the best way to deal with it, to be honest.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
They shouldn't Skull Merchant Ghoul. End of story.
They shouldn't have Skull Merchanted Skull Merchant, if that makes sense.
However, Ghoul does need nerfs. This killer is extremely oppressive and basically has no counterplay, other than getting the gens as fast as possible and hope for a decent map.
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I am guessing they will make it so the perk can only be used while you are in a chase.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964896#Comment_3964896
Fair enough my man, I know you're a fan of her 2.0...
However if you'll indulge me a second... not that I'm trying to convince you, but I do think I can make a pretty good case for these changes that help Skull Merchant overall... and feed a little more into Skull Merchants decision making... 😁
Single Scan Line
The first problem I had with her kit personally as a SM player, was I noticed while playing her that I almost never used the switch drone rotation ability on her... I genuinely almost forgot it was part of her kit, because honestly 99% of the time you didn't need it.
Just walking after survivors with both beams running was plenty good to beat most survivors at loops... and when I started to think of ways to make it so that using the rotation direction change was a meaningful part of her kit (cause paying attention to the position of your drone scan lines feels like that should be a major point of SM), I hit a conundrum... if you make the scan lines faster, that means the survivor has to crouch much more often and easily gets overwhelmed... if you make the scan lines slower, that means the survivor has to stay crouched for longer so SM closes more distance. There was essentially nothing you could do to refine and tweak her rotation to use it as part of balancing her, because whichever way you went, you maintained the same level of difficulty for the survivor...
So I want the single scan line change for scout drones (and only scout drones), just so it can be fine tuned and used in her balance discussions.
Haste removal
The issue I have with the haste on Skull Merchant was it made looping as her and against her quite inconsistent, and the worst part is the numbers are subtle. Your haste bounces around based on how many survivors are scanned, and judging it as a survivor especially becomes a similar frustration to how MFT was on killer, a lot of the time it isn't even your fault that the haste is triggered, someone gets scanned across map, and your chase suffers for it, and as Skull Merchant you often can't plan for it... it just happens randomly.
I further dislike it because to my mind, haste is such a lazy way of making something viable... you can make anything viable by adding haste... If her haste must be a thing, I'd prefer something much more obvious/impactful but not impacting chase, have it lean more into the unique traits of Skull Merchant.
For example: What if we give her say 10% haste when a survivor is scanned/claw trapped but ONLY applies when she is not in chase? This feeds into her catching a survivor on her radar, she might decide to drop chase and instead go for the scanned survivor using her undetctable and radar to score a cheeky hit... she's actually making decisions and putting fear into survivors off of her unique traits/power. (As opposed to discount PWYF). It also makes holding W to leave tile less effective if she has a scan on you, because she can stick on you, so playing against her now weaker drones at tiles is in a survivors better interest, so we're actually playing around loops and scan lines more often, so SM has a built in discouragement for disengaging with her power at loops.
Broken Removal
I like this change because again it feeds into the unique traits of Skull Merchant. She knows where you are via her radar if you have a claw trap... if you're broken, you just do a gen and run if she turns up... there isn't much else you can do.
If she doesn't have Broken however... do you try to recover/heal against her? Or do you stay Injured? Survivors are now having to choices to make and must weigh up risk vs. Skull Merchant knowing she can see where they are, that may even be more costly than just staying injured and doinga gen. Healing becomes viable against her, but in turn things like Mangled/Haemorrhage become good for SM... her being able to track movement means something and creates more paranoia trying to get away with a heal vs. just go to gen and look out as per usual.
Maybe it won't convince you, but these things make her more interesting for me... and with tasteful.compensation buffs, she starts to get pretty cool to my mind 😁
Well, my friend, I did read all of your points here, but I'm sorry to say this will remain an agree to disagree kinda thing. I'm sorry, but I just don't think these changes are things that she should have received.
Removal of one scan line in particular, as it is something that, in my experience actively maining this killer as she is right now, is a change that really hurts her power. It just isn't something that I like.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964587#Comment_3964587
Agreed. No one, not even SM mains would disagree that her skill floor was insanely low and she needed to be made more difficult to play at the basic levels...
However where a lot of players get it wrong is they believe she had no skill expression either... SM definitely had skillful things she could do, just her lazy passive way of playing was too strong, and that's all that needed nerfing.
Skull Merchant 2.0 with:
- Single scan line on scouting drones.
- Removal of haste on scans/claw traps.
- Removal of broken on claw trap.
- Switch drone deployment to the end of the deploy animation
- Drones deploy in scouting mode while in chase.
This set of nerfs would have been more than enough to stop the "poop a drone and passively walk after survivor" gameplay, and level out her low-mid MMR kill rate, as they would actually have to learn to time drone placements and use her radar properly to be effective. High skill SMs would have still been able to do their high skill things, but it would have hit the lowbies who didn't use her power at all.
We could then look at meaningfully buffing her for the players that actually played SM with skill... but where she is now, she's just in limbo.
No one, not even SM mains would disagree that her skill floor was insanely low and she needed to be made more difficult to play at the basic levels
Honestly, my friend, I would disagree, yes.
It isn't really a concern to me how much skill a character takes. What matters is whether or not they provide an enjoyable experience for both sides, and that doesn't always mean skill.
Nurse takes skill to learn, and once you master her survivors have zero they can do against her. By comparison Myers has a straightforward power, and yet he is one of my favorite characters to go against.
Skull Merchant 2.0 didn't have to be made more difficult. She didn't have to be made, well, anything. A point can be made about a possible removal of Hindered, which seemed to be the main source of frustration, but that is as far as changes should go, imho.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964621#Comment_3964621
I appreciate your passion on this subject, and I genuinely feel for people who invested time and money in a character who is going to be fundamentally changed. but despite the support of a vocal minority, SM 2.0 isn't coming back. There's no way we've gotten to the point we have and they are just going to be like "you know what, we'll just revert her instead". That's just a pipe dream.
Not only because she was and is historically unpopular, but because I think her rework is going to end up being part of a broader move away from trap/setup killers, who are all among the most unpopular and/or weakest killers in the game.
I'm generally a fan of variety, but I think the broader audience's taste for more active simple and direct interaction as opposed to passive interactions (i.e. strategically interacting with the killer's proxies rather than the killer) is going to drive things going forward. It's simplifying/dumbing down, but I think that's where we're headed. I don't think we'll see another trap killer.
I'm sad about that in general, but for SM in particular, there was no path forward for her other than radical change, even if devotees can't see that.
Thusly_Boned! It is good to see you here, old friend! It has been a while, hasn't it? How are you doing?
Well, my friend, I am not willing to give up. We've reached the point that we have because of an atypical situation, the hate train from a problematic release causing issues with a power that was no longer a problem for the game. I think that has to be taken into consideration and it can allow for a revert. If not a full revert, then at least most aspects of her kit without erasing her identity.
It happened with Sadako, after all. Obviously it was a very different situation, as Sadako didn't have a problematic release, but a point was made to try and restore her identity. This should apply to Skull Merchant. In the design previews it didn't, and it is no wonder they weren't liked.
Your second point here, my dear friend, is a trend that, unfortunately, seems to me happening. Like you, I dislike this move away from trap/setup killers towards chase-oriented killers. And while this is bad news for new releases, I do believe we should make it clear that the killers who already have this setup identity should not, under any circumstances, lose it. Trapper, Hag and Skull Merchant shouldn't become something else entirely, they should remain who they are.
And Skull Merchant in particular, I say it is worth fighting for her to keep her identity.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964623#Comment_3964623
Frankly I also prefer doing gens, but I still think too much gen control either side is a problem. I think it's so problematic I don't even bring some toolboxes anymore, and rarely bring gen perks as Survivor (I confess I like Potential Energy though, it's fun). I just don't think either side should be able to have a strong way to tilt how fast or slow generators move especially. I'm more OK with perks that activate RELATING TO gens, or that block gens. I'm also fine with charge reduction on gens. I just think too much regression/progression on either side isn't healthy for the game at this stage at all.
Overall, my friend, I agree.
While I did enjoy things like OG Ruin and Prove Thyself in the past, I think it is important to be careful and avoid having way too much of it.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964567#Comment_3964567
Correction accounting for this - MOST OF THE COMMUNITY says they are not playing the game because they enjoy gens, but because they enjoy chase. There's certainly exceptions. :)
Hahahahaha, it is certainly an unpopular opinion, my friend, but it is a necessary role :)
If no one does the gens, the chase-oriented survivors will never escape the trial.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964519#Comment_3964519
She had the same problem. If she wanted you down, you'd go down. You were forced to deal with the Drone at the loop by either running away and taking an M1 or being killed in the loop because she had every status effect in the game applied. It might take a while, but she'd get you down and there was no possible counterplay while you were being chased.
I am sure the OG Legion players felt the same way, but unhealthy designs remain unhealthy, even if you enjoy them. For example, I enjoy playing current Legion. That doesn't mean I think he's well-designed. Besides, Legion's entire gameplay loop changed, just as SM's will.
It worked for you. That doesn't mean it worked for the community at large. By the metrics we have access to, she didn't work at all. Could've, should've, would've. There's no hard data or evidence in that.
Asking BHVR, and the community, to leave a Killer alone at 70% because you like them is silly. Put it in any other context, "Just because Ghoul has a 70% KR doesn't mean he needs to be changed, people just need to get used to him/stop giving up/stop not liking him." The only difference is that you like SM and don't like Ghoul, and that is changing your perspective.
And how many people not liking it is worth it to you?
I don't think she created the exact same scenario as OG Legion, my friend. Skull Merchant had to scan you three times before the claw trap is even applied to you, and then she can play around Haste and Hindered, which you, as a survivor, is not helpless against. Sure, there were situations where you would go down, but that goes for every single killer in the game. Not one of them can be looped indefinitely, not anymore. Skull Merchant provided you with counter play, something that OG Legion didn't do.
But the thing is, my friend, Legion's changes didn't go as deep as Skull Merchant's proposed changes would. Legion runs fast and stabs people, that hasn't changed. The specifics around it changed. Skull Merchant is a set up killer with AoE traps that scan survivors, and that would have been replaced by a Twins-style dash attack and mid-range M2 like the countless we already have. It isn't the same. It is an erasure of identity.
The design previews are comparable to the idea of allowing Trapper to manually control his bear traps and have them running around chomping survivors. Or Hag's phantasms being controllable, finding a survivor, and only then letting her teleport.
I would say, my friend, that it didn't work for those who would rather give up and leave rather than actually trying to play the match. For those players, yes, SM 2.0 didn't work, but the result would have been the same for any other killer, if they did the same thing. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the perfectly fine and fair games I had against Skull Merchant 2.0 were also experienced by countless players out there. I can guarantee you, my friend, that if we had her in the game right now with the anti go next, players would have a much better understanding of what to do against her.
The problem here is that putting it into any other context doesn't work because each killer has a different reason for their kill rates. Let's say Ghoul, pre-buff Freddy and Skull Merchant had 70% kill rates. We can't dismiss all three as overpowered. Ghoulsis overpowered, most certainly. Pre-buff Freddy's high kill rates were due to being picked mostly by experienced players, and survivors lacking experience in playing against him. Skull Merchant's can be easily explained by failed attempts at hook suicides and, just like Freddy, lack of experience. Because you can't improve if many games you play against a killer has someone DCing because of a problematic release that had already been fixed. It isn't silly, my friend, it is a matter of looking at each case individually.
As for the last question, friend, well… when I first started playing DBD, if I asked pretty much any killer player out there who was the weakest killer in the game, they would say Freddy. But I didn't agree with that, and I have made many posts over the years trying to explain why I didn't consider him the weakest. Skull Merchant 2.0 is another killer that I like, and I'm trying to explain why I support her return to the game and why I don't think she was problematic, at all.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964553#Comment_3964553
The Killer's objective isn't gens. The Survivor's objective is not to end the game in five minutes.
If every perk were a chase, 2nd chance, or info perk? DBD wouldn't be boring. It would unironically be a much, much better game. The community as a whole has proven it because every single survey, time and again, when asked what the most important aspect of DBD is, know what they say?
Chase. They say it's chase.Chase is the most important part of DBD because it's the fun part. Not gens. Nobody is playing this game because they like to do gens really fast or hold gens for 45 minutes (except that one Skurchent).
Gen perks are badly designed. BOTH sides. So are gen items. Ideally NOBODY should be able to hold, block, or increase regression/progression of gens beyond basekit. But that's not the game we're in, unfortunately.
Nobody is playing this game because they like to do gens
Actually, friend, I am!
I don't like chases, they have always been the least fun part of DBD in my experience. As survivor, I enjoy being the gen jockey, the one who will do the objective. The thrill comes from hiding and evading the killer.
And, as killer, I've always preferred map control over chase-oriented characters.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964463#Comment_3964463
OG Legion was, somehow, objectively in a better place than SM 2.0. He didn't have a 70% KR.
Saying he kept his identity is like saying that because the design previews of SM still use Drones, she's still the same. Legion's playstyle was completely changed, just like SM's playstyle will be completely changed. The design previews were mixed. There were the die-hard SM defenders, who see a return to SM 2.0 as the only path forward. Then you have the people who didn't really care and give decent feedback over the kits as they were presented. Then you had the people who didn't want SM changed because they like how she is now, nonexistent.
Her identity is objectively problematic, imo. If you want to keep her identity, you must accept she will never be viable. A Killer with a lockdown AoE is either going to be far too strong (been there) or far too weak (here now). Ironically, this is just like Legion, and more recently, Ghoul. A Killer that gets free injuries cannot be balanced. They will only ever be too strong (Ghoul) or too weak (Legion). Doesn't mean they can't be fun to play (both Ghoul and Legion are fun to play imo).
Her kit was bloated beyond belief. She shouldn't have been called SM at that point, but just, Status Effect Merchant. Once again, disregarding suicides and DC's, her KR was 70%. BHVR was just supposed to leave that there?
The problem with her 2.0 design was that it fixed pretty much nothing. She was bloated, poorly thought-out and exceedingly tedious/unpleasant to play against. Even SM 1.0 was beatable. Nobody wanted to play chess for an hour to get an escape. The effort you had to put in as SM was laughable compared to how much effort you had to put in as a Survivor.
We don't need "place drone at loop, leave loop and get hit or die" and "place drone on gen, ignore? get hit when she comes to check her drone. disable drone? she replaces it immediately" to come back into play.
Bringing her back as SM 2.0 will make the vast majority of players far more miserable.
That is not a comparison I would make, friend. Legion's kill rates may not have been as high, but they were genuinely problematic for the game, simply because their kit had no counter. There was literally nothing you could do against Legion, once they decided you would go down, you would go down. The same doesn't apply to Skull Merchant 2.0, who had counter play.
Well, Legion's changes to me felt more like adjustments, but the core idea of running around and stabbing people remained the same. That can't be said for SM's design previews, who will end up giving her a dash and a mid-range M2 attack. That, my dear friend, is a full erasure of identity. The design previews will never be well received because the whole point is that SM players have to be taken into consideration, and erasing her identity completely is something that none of them, myself included these days, want. Obviously there are those who would prefer to never see her again, but that is just personal preference towards the game. I would love to never play against Wesker again, but I don't want him gutted for that to happen.
I would argue that her identity isn't problematic at all, imo. A killer with an AoE trap can work because SM 2.0 did work, and could have remained in the game. Would have, had people adapted and taken their time to realize that the killer was fine. Ghoul, the other character you've mentioned, I agree, he is overpowered. But the difference is that Skull Merchant couldn't disregard everything, even with the haste and hindered effects she had to deal with survivor's resources. Ghouls doesn't have to.
Yes, my friend, I do believe BHVR was supposed to leave it there because the number wasn't caused by her kit. Just like Freddy's incredibly high kill rates before the buff. The kill rates are caused by several other factors.
As far as my understanding goes, Skull Merchant 2.0 fixed the problem with 3 gens, and gave her a power that worked for chases, which is what some people wanted in the first place. Her kit can appear bloated at first glance, much like Vecna's for instance, but in reality it was perfectly possible to understand it and play around it. Personally, she really grew on me and became one of my favorite killers in the game, to play as and against. And, regarding effort, that goes for pretty much every killer in modern DBD: the survivor role can require more effort than killer because of how the game has been since the whole process of making killers deadlier, but that has nothing to do with SM.
I strongly support a full reversion, my friend, and really don't think it will make games miserable. Some people won't like it, of course, just like I didn't like Freddy's changes earlier this year after insisting on this topic for years, but unfortunately you can't please everyone.
All things considered, this is the best option, friend.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964322#Comment_3964322
Ruin undying definitely not, unless it was back when Ruin had to do with great skill checks, but that era was not killer sided at all
Gen kick was only strong for killers because of Eruption. Still, not as strong as today.Well, I'm a bit late here, seeing as other replies already said what I wanted to, but yes, I do believe these metas were stronger for killer than the current state of the game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963978#Comment_3963978
She isn't going to keep her identity. I hate to break it to everyone, but there isn't a way to salvage it. It'd be like trying to salvage original Legion's identity. He was originally a rush-down Killer that stabbed the same Survivor multiple times, there was no way for it to work, so they needed to change him. And he sucked, for literal years. There were zero changes, not even bug fixes, for over two years. After all of that, he still sucks to play against, but he's fun to play at least.
The same will be true of SM. She may still use Drones, but I highly doubt that she'll be an AoE trap Killer.
Even the state that you want her reverted to had a 70% KR without Hook Suicides or DC's. The majority of the community hates her, the stan club doesn't help, and she genuinely was overperforming. There were clearly problems with her design, even then. A full return is out of the question, that'd be PR suicide to bring back an objectively OP and nearly universally reviled Killer.
Well, dearest friend, we usually agree on most things in here, but I'm afraid this will remain a point of disagreement.
I wouldn't compare Legion's original design with Skull Merchant's current situation for a variety of reasons. First, Legion's problematic release doesn't match Skull Merchant 2.0, as she no longer caused an actual problem for the game the same way Legion or her own release did. Second, Legion did keep their identity: fundamentally, they are a killer who moves fast and injures people. Skull Merchant is risking a complete loss of identity, judging by the two design previews which, as far as I know, were not well-received. For good reason, I might add.
I strongly believe she has to retain her identity as an AoE set up trap killer. That shouldn't even be a point of discussion, in my honest opinion, friend.
And yes, her kill rate was high. However, they do not reveal the full picture, at all. Remember, pre-buff Freddy was one of the deadliest killers in the game, and his power was terrible. Skull Merchant's kill rates were always influenced by the hook suicides and DCs (which, as we know friend, were caused by those who refused to adapt after the problematic release was fixed), because how are you supposed to learn how to counter the killer if your teammates just leave? And we also have those scenarios where people don't allow others to hook suicide. That can happen, often in fact, and also alters the kill rates. Plus, her kit was good. Not overpowered, but good. That also makes it high.
To be honest, my friend, the only problem I see with her 2.0 design were people DCing. In games where everyone did stay she was perfectly fine and fair to go against. I even have screenshots of victories against her then, if needed. Maybe a full return won't happen simply because BHVR rarely ever does it, but I strongly support it.
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@Rudjohns said:
The current state of the game is the most killer sided it has ever been
And I would love to see examples of why I'm wrong. Tell me a different patch that was more killer sided than today
Tell me a different patch that was more killer sided than today
I would say Gen Kick meta and Ruin-Undying meta.
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But worse than that 2 games last night as killer I spawned in with a direct line of sight on a survivor!
I remember when this used to be a common glitch, my friend. Spawned right next to Hillbilly in pre-rework Gas Heaven. I thought he would have mercy.
He didn't.
But I haven't had it happen in recent times. Though it does seem like the spawn logic is a little bit weird sometimes, don't think it is fully working as intended.
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It is a difficult question to answer.
I was thinking about it yesterday because I was looking at my killer stats and, even though they are severely outdated because of the anniversary event, a 69% kill rate with current Skull Merchant in a time where, supposedly, things are getting harder for killers shouldn't really be possible.
However, after watching a few old DBD videos, I came up with a theory (a game theory): I think it has to do with the perception of the game's balance changing. Let me explain.
In my opinion, DBD's balance can be divided into three different eras:
2016 - 2019: Survivor sided.
2020 - Patch 6.1.0: Relatively balanced.
Patch 6.1.0 - 2025: Killer sided.
The game's balance has favored killers for the last couple of years, until now. While there were exceptions, generally speaking very little was stacked against the killer role in recent times. But in 2025 we have been getting the "health update" which focuses most on survivor issues.
And now, phase 2 of said update is approaching, which has things like anti-slugging, anti-tunneling and anti-camping, which directly impact killer gameplay by addressing strategies that are frowned upon and heavily disliked. So, I think this whole idea that the killer role is getting hard to play comes from the perception that the killer-favored balance that has been present in DBD for the last few years is ending.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964130#Comment_3964130
id be 100% onboard with this idea. And I would offer playing against you in a custom match any time ♥
Glad you agree, dear friend.
And thank you very much for the offer! I'll keep it in mind <3
@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964130#Comment_3964130
i always thought the way to fix her was to make her more proactive and require more aware input.
make her manually activate drones to make the lights appear, buff hinder to like 20% but make it so it lasts for like a second with beam immunity being about same duration as well so she needs to constantly flicker it back and forth to maintain the effect, give survivors a way to remove stacks but in a way that is fair, for example hacking drones adds scan stacks, but if you set off the clawtrap from hacking drones rather than from being scanned, this clawtrap won't deal damage, allowing you to reset your stacks without suffering the hit.
While this is not a bad idea, my friend, I don't believe that trap killers should have proactive playstyles.
It kinda defeats the point of being a set up killer, imho. Trapper, Hag and Skull Merchant are supposed to get value from the web they created around the map, but they don't "control" it per se, they just create the web.
That is why the design previews for Skull Merchant are terrible. They are literally the same thing as making Trapper manually control his bear traps and having them walk around chomping survivors.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964122#Comment_3964122
You absolutely can still enjoy playing weaker killers. Myers and Pig are still two of my favorites. However if a killer is so weak you just can't win no matter what you do it's going to kill the fun for most people.
Fair enough, my friend, I agree.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964122#Comment_3964122
I feel like the least they could do is give her bidirectional drones back. Single direction is sooooOooooo bad D:
Anything but perma expose and killer instinct really I was fine with.Well, my dear friend, I strongly support reverting all of her nerfs and leaving her be.
Skull Merchant 2.0 didn't cause the 3 gen thing, and was perfectly fine as she was. They could make a few minor adjustments if needed, but overall that is what I think she should be.
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@thrawn3054 said:
I have to disagree the macro heavy killers are disliked because you need to think and plan ahead. Though I'm sure that's true to some extent. I think they're unpopular because they get their teeth kicked in pretty frequently. It's hard to enjoy a killer when you feel like you're the one getting killed.
To be fair, my friend, I'm currently having a lot of fun with Skull Merchant, and she is among the weakest killers in the game.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963724#Comment_3963724
As long as killers enjoy something, it doesn't matter how it feels to verse it, amirite?
That isn't the case here, though. Here it is the case of a killer who got unnecessarily nerfed and is constantly at risk of having her identity erased because of an unreasonable and unacceptable "hate train" caused by a problematic release, despite the fact that the problems caused by said release had already been fixed.
You know me, friend. You know I don't disregard the survivor experience. And, speaking as someone who enjoys playing as and against Skull Merchant, I strongly support a full return to her previous iteration, that we had before the nerfs.
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@ChaosWam said:
Most of the lesser used ones, really. But if I had to choose one on either side…
Survivors, Visionary, which isn't the perk's fault, it was the changes to Deja Vu. Still, badly designed in this era.
And on killer side, I'd go with Shattered Hope. I don't really need to explain that one, I'd say.Shattered Hope is an interesting one, seeing as it was created to counter Boons, and yet only one boon perk was ever meta and the meta died as soon as that perk got nerfed, meaning Shattered Hope just faded into obscurity.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963805#Comment_3963805
Killers have second chance perks? Or do you mean that from the Killer POV, second chance perks are badly designed?
Well, my friend, they do have one: NOED.
But in my opinion it really isn't as badly designed as it used to be.
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I use the nostalgia pack. It is really good if you have been playing since Old DBD.
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While I wouldn't say he needs the "Skull Merchant" treatment, as not even she herself deserved or needed it, Ghoul does need nerfs.
You don't have to kill the character, but you have to make him balanced. Right now, he is extremely oppressive and genuinely unfair.
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It is truly unfortunate that the developers seem to be moving away from macro-oriented killers and towards micro, case in point: the outrageous number of dash killers that we have in the game.
But honestly, what makes the situation even worse is the fact that the few macro killers we have in the game are taken away from their core playerbase and turned towards micro.
Skull Merchant is a prime example with her garbage, genuinely awful design previews, but she is not the only one:
We have, of course, the very first instance when something like this happened: Freddy.
Freddy's rework in 2019 was the very first example of taking a killer who was meant for macro gameplay, and turning them towards micro.
The result? An extremely oppressive killer who was nerfed after little more than a year, then left to rot until early-2025. And the players who enjoyed Old Freddy were never given anything. At best an add-on that does one of the many things his base-kit (not another add-on, base-kit) could do in the past.
And that isn't acceptable. If new releases will be more micro-oriented going forward, fine. It is not a good decision, but okay. However, the killers who do excel at macro-gameplay should never, under any circusntamces, lose their identity.
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There is one perk that immediately comes to mind:
Boil Over.
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@Rookie1978 said:
Me disagreeing with people isn't me instituting a grand conspiracy im just regularly dumbfounded that people can actively play this game and hold that opinion at the same time
In order to facilitate discussion, what exactly do you like about her? What character fantasy is she supposed to fulfill or portray? What does she do compared to other killers that makes you want to play her?
Genuinely curious what merit other people see in her and I've never gotten a straightforward answer so maybe the BHVR forums can give me one
Well, there isn't much for me to say that hasn't already been said in the other replies here. What I'll tell you though, is that I completely agree with @ObsidianButterfly , they said it best.
Skull Merchant is completely unique, appealing to those who enjoy macro gameplay and don't want another dash / mid-range M2 boring mess, and she should, undeniably, keep her identity.
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My friend, while I am having fun with her, more than any other killer, it is still extremely unfair that she was nerfed for absolutely no reason. Her kit no longer caused any problems for the game, the 3 gen thing was over.
Worst of all is that the design previews for the rework are terrible. No only do they look unfun to play as and against, but they also completely erase her identity. She shouldn't have a dash, she shouldn't have a mid range M2, she is a trap killer and should remain that way.
I strongly support reverting her back to 2.0 and then leave her be. It is, in my opinion, the best option.
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@francesinhalover said:
We ignoring nurse exists?
To be fair, at least Nurse takes time to learn, not every Nurse you play against will have mastered their power.
Kaneki is easy to pick up (which is alright, how much skill a killer requires doesn't determine how fun they are), but he also has extreme levels of strength. Your only real counterplay is rushing gens as fast as possible and hope the killer mess up or make mistakes.
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Yeah, I've noticed the bonus seems low, considering the fast survivor queues and the unbearable killer queues.
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Unfortunately, my friend, I think every player here will, sooner or later, encounter a situation where the game's changes will negatively affect their experience.
I've lost count of how many happened to me: Freddy's rework and nerf, The Realm Beyond, Skull Merchant's nerfs, countless perk changes, and the list goes on. There are some changes that you can adapt to, and others that you cannot, but know that you are not alone here.
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Well, I was watching this video earlier and I agree with Scott on the fact that, compared to how things currently are, the next meta will probably be worse for killers. Right now there isn't much being stacked against the killer role.
Franklin's is the only thing I disagree with, because personally I think it was a bad perk that didn't really accomplish much, hence why it was barely ever used. What I guess will happen is that anti-healing will be the main choice for killers, at least for a while.
Even if Mangled and Hemorrhage are on timers now, they can still delay the healing and keep the pressure.
As for toolboxes though, I think the regular anti-gen perks will remain.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963262#Comment_3963262
Oh wow! Great job! 👏❤️
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963275#Comment_3963275
1 or 2 hours of back to back lobbies.
Some days I don’t play. Just depends on my schedule.
Thank you friend <3
@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963136#Comment_3963136
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963262#Comment_3963262
Out of curiosity how many hours a day are you all playing? As mentioned in this thread, I can't play much this year but even during previous years when I was able to play a more I never got anywhere near that amount!
Well, my friend, I am currently on vacation, so I do have time to grind a little bit more. But the reason why I already have a lot of cakes is because the bloodpoints I get as survivor also go to Skull Merchant.
I rarely ever use items and my Mikaela is already P100, meaning there is very little reason to keep leveling her up, at least until the new items releases.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963265#Comment_3963265
I really wish you'd come back where you belong, my friend. I ❤️ the rework. Yes, it needs to grow on you, but it will, the pallets are a blast (literally)!
Come back...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PI08FW44BIIZ/1000030279.gif
Hahahaha, I appreciate the sentiment, my dear friend <3
Freddy will always be among my favorites in DBD simply because I love the character, plus he will certainly remain my favorite killer to go against. But I really don't want to main a character whose power I am not having fun with.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963262#Comment_3963262
I thought you were a Knight main these days?
Gave him a chance, dearest friend, but it didn't last very long.
As long as the design previews don't hit live, I'll continue with Skull Merchant as my main.