Firellius
Firellius
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Y'all maybe don't wanna hear it, but RBTs are absolutely awful and the main reason Pig's in a bad spot. A lucky Pig is the strongest killer in the entire game, and unlucky one is the worst. All these changes do is block some of the most asinine gameplay styles. On the survivor end, nothing changes, except there's a slightly smaller chance that Pig AFKs in front of the box you need.
Well, that, and she's stronger in chase now.
RBTs should be slowdown, NOT utterly and completely randomised freebie kills.
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@Æthereal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650054#Comment_3650054
A 2k is a tie as it's the very middle of the road. 3k and 4k are wins and 1k and 0k are losses. 60% kill rate comes out to an average of 2.4 kills per game. This means killers have an average win rate of 40% of their games, and survs are winning 40% of their games.
That is not how that works, that 2.4K is the outcome of the average match, it is not the average win rate. The average win rate is considerably higher, judging by the Nightlight statistics.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652711#Comment_3652711
Well Spirit’s whole power heavily revolves around listening to sounds because she loses sight in her power. Sometimes I even like chasing survivors with OTR for that old iron will nostalgia but you understand I can’t always afford to have a chase longer than it should be because of a perk? If they survivor keeps running its fine I’ll hear the footsteps no problem but when they just stand still or starts walking after you lose LOS that brings us back to why old Iron Will was so problematic.
that brings us back to why old Iron Will was so problematic.
Because it acted as a counter to one of the strongest killers in the game?
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@KazRen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652676#Comment_3652676
So I don't know how to quote sections of a comment like you did so please excuse how messy this comment is.
I'm not saying that survivors can't use their perks, that would be dumb. I am saying that survivors can get up with unbreakable removing a lot of potential slowdown and pressure. I'd also like to say that the original point that I made is that you can pair unbreakable with DS forcing the killer to eat the DS or let the survivor get away which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer. This was a thing back then and it became significantly weaker since but it is still very much a possible thing to happen. I'm not saying that unbreakable by itself is too strong.
So for the second part of your comment I'm not really understanding what your saying. From my interpretation your saying that the survivor was gonna get up either via unbreakable or teammate and that the survivors gained less from the survivor getting up via unbreakable as opposed to a teammate. After that yours saying that you don't see the idea of that the survivors benifited more from a survivor getting up from unbreakable. I'm not really understanding what you mean by contributing to the team to maintain DS. If this is the case then I think it can depend on the case but most of the time it does give more for the survivors then not. It's a lot more time waste for the killer then not and there still is 2 other survivors working on gens. This comment was a bit confusing for me so please tell me if I got something wrong.
For the last comment I didn't say the killer got nothing I said almost nothing. They obviously slowed down the gen speeds a little bit but it's not a enough to say it was a good situation for them.
So I don't know how to quote sections of a comment like you did so please excuse how messy this comment is.
It's done by using the 'greater than' symbol. At least on my browser, I know it doesn't work on the mobile version of the forums.
I'm not saying that survivors can't use their perks, that would be dumb. I am saying that survivors can get up with unbreakable removing a lot of potential slowdown and pressure. I'd also like to say that the original point that I made is that you can pair unbreakable with DS forcing the killer to eat the DS or let the survivor get away which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer. This was a thing back then and it became significantly weaker since but it is still very much a possible thing to happen. I'm not saying that unbreakable by itself is too strong.
Alright, so let's clarify things for the sake of the discussion:
We're talking about a scenario in which the killer isn't chasing a survivor that has DS on, but downs a survivor with DS, correct?
Mostly this is referred to via the scenario of bodyblocking, where the DS user blocks the killer's path while the killer is chasing another survivor.
My point now is that I think you're wrong in your assessment that this interaction favours the survivors, and I think this gets messy because the wrong situations are being compared. You mention that if the survivor gets downed, the killer has to either eat the DS or let unbreakable get them up.
which is a much more beneficial interaction for survivors then the killer.
And this is where I think it goes wrong. Yes, if Unbreakable is in the picture, this scenario is better for survivors than if Unbreakable isn't in the picture. But firstly, I don't think this makes it better for the survivors than it is for the killer, and secondly, it's not an applicable comparison.
I don't think it's better for survivors than killers because there's more than just the fifteen seconds of incapacitation that come into play here. Remember that DS deactivates if the survivor offers -any- contribution to the survivors. Which means that all the time between being pulled off hook and actually bodyblocking is added to the time the survivor effectively spent being incapacitated.
Fifteen seconds is the absolute bare minimum it could theoretically be. And I don't think that's quite right with basekit BT now being in the mix.
Those extra seconds add up in favour of the killer.
So for the second part of your comment I'm not really understanding what your saying. From my interpretation your saying that the survivor was gonna get up either via unbreakable or teammate and that the survivors gained less from the survivor getting up via unbreakable as opposed to a teammate.
And this is in reference to why I don't think the comparison is applicable. Tossing Unbreakable into the DS bodyblock mix and then pointing out the obvious improvement of the scenario for the survivors is all well and good, but removing Unbreakable wouldn't just result in the bodyblocking survivor spending a longer time slugged out and pulling another survivor off gen to come to their rescue.
It would result in the bodyblock not even being attempted.
The alternative to unbreakable being paired with DS is not that someone with DS is bodyblocking the killer and waiting around to be picked up. The alternative is the DS user going straight for a gen and contributing. So do things really improve for the survivor when you compare the two scenes?
On one hand, we have three survivors on gens, while on the other, we have one survivor running around without contributing before giving a free down in an attempt to extend another's chase.
It's not relevant to compare the value of the bodyblock between the 'with UB' and 'Without UB' states, because the latter is not going to be relevant to the general game. If they are not going to get picked up, they're not going to let themselves get downed.
This, I think, is the bigger issue that people have with DS. Not with the actual result of its use, but with misperceptions about how DS changes situations: What to compare, and the full extend of the comparisons. It's easy to see the bodyblock and the fifteen second revive, but you have to keep way more factors than that in mind.
Besides, it's half a perk build and a hookstate for a singular bodyblock. Even Mettle of Man is better value.
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@KazRen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651020#Comment_3651020
I mean the fact that they can get back up with unbreakable in around 15 seconds, making it so that 1 of the other 2 survivors that are on generators DON"T have to go pick them up, making it so that there is at least 15 extra seconds of gen times for both survivors also assuming that they don't have a perk/item to make the gen go faster.
This isn't even including the fact that the downed survivor can get up and heal making it so that their next chase takes longer, do a gen, or if the killer comes back that they could have DS and (potentially) an exhaustion perk which makes that entire time they left to chase that other survivor pretty pointless unless they also got downed or at the very least lose a health state.
That's a lot of slowdown lost and chases could be longer because they healed.
Basically the killer got almost nothing, the survivors got something.
I saw this post pop up, then it got deleted, apparently it got reinstated and I wasn't pinged. Anyway...
I mean the fact that they can get back up with unbreakable in around 15 seconds, making it so that 1 of the other 2 survivors that are on generators DON"T have to go pick them up, making it so that there is at least 15 extra seconds of gen times for both survivors also assuming that they don't have a perk/item to make the gen go faster.
The issue with this is that you're complaining about Unbreakable's existence altogether. Survivors have perks, and they should be allowed to use them. And should the situation arise in which the perk is meant to be used, it should be allowed to provide value. Survivor perks aren't supposed to be net-nothings.
This isn't even including the fact that the downed survivor can get up and heal making it so that their next chase takes longer, do a gen, or if the killer comes back that they could have DS and (potentially) an exhaustion perk which makes that entire time they left to chase that other survivor pretty pointless unless they also got downed or at the very least lose a health state.
The critical distinction, though, is that all of this applies -more- to what happens if said survivor never went down in the first place. What you are describing is entirely identical to what happens under normal circumstances, except the survivor has spent 15 seconds incapacitated, and a single-use perk. Whatever time the survivor won by giving this free down -must- be more than what the team lost by this survivor being downed, plus the additional time lost by not contributing to the team to maintain DS. And I don't see that happening.
Basically the killer got almost nothing, the survivors got something.
The killer got a survivor incapacitated for, at minimum, 15 seconds and permanently disabled a survivor perk, at no effort. I'd call that 'something'.
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Bloodrite - Accumulates stacks via certain gameplay styles, and awards a BP bonus at the end of the game. These serve as mini-missions and alternative win conditions. BBQ & Chili and We're Gonna Live Forever would become Bloodrite perks. Additionally:
Bloodrite: Red Wine - You offer pain and suffering to the entity to curry its favour. For every survivor that is injured, gain 1 charge per second. For every 20 charges, gain a token. For every token, increase BP gains at the end of the match by 3%, up to 75%. Additionally, leaving a chase after injuring a survivor grants a 25% haste bonus until you next enter a chase.
Bloodrite: Furtive Prey - You pride yourself on your ability to evade and avoid. After being in chase for at least fifteen seconds without losing a health state, Furtive Prey accumulates charges at 1 per second. For every 10 charges, Furtive Prey gains a token. Every token increases BP gains at the end of the match by 5%, up to 75%. Additionally, when you take a protection hit, you hide the scratchmarks of other survivors for 10 seconds.
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Call me cynical, but I don't like how, for 90% of the year, I'll be told that the anec-data proves survivor is OP, while in the other 10% of the year, I'll be told that the actual data 'doesn't paint the full picture'.
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@KazRen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650511#Comment_3650511
Removing a large amount of pressure and potential slowdown fort the killer is though.
How are you removing a large amount of pressure and slowdown by giving the killer a free down?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650791#Comment_3650791
If you seriously think the amount of kills in a match has nothing to do with a win or loss, then I don't know what to tell you.
Also, the 62.5% is the halfway point between 50% (a 2k, not a win) and 75% (a 3k, the minimum needed for a win). That's an average of 2.5 kills a match. Over the course of several matches, that averages out to winning half the matches.
Also, the 62.5% is the halfway point between 50% (a 2k, not a win) and 75% (a 3k, the minimum needed for a win). That's an average of 2.5 kills a match. Over the course of several matches, that averages out to winning half the matches.
You can keep re-stating it, it's still wrong.
If you seriously think the amount of kills in a match has nothing to do with a win or loss, then I don't know what to tell you.
I know what to tell you though.
2 matches. 50% win-rate.
Match 1: 2K -- Match 2: 4K -- Killrate: 75%
Match 1: 0K -- Match 2: 4K -- Killrate: 50%
Match 1: 0K -- Match 2: 3K -- Killrate: 37.5%
All of those datasets set up for 50% winrate, with a killrate as low as 37.5%, up to 75%.
This is why you can't infer winrates from killrates. Sure, higher killrates make it harder and harder to have a low winrate, but you can't take a certain killrate and say 'This should result in X% winrate'. It doesn't work like that.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650350#Comment_3650350
My numbers are based off of the stats BHVR provided. Unless you're implying they are mistaken.
And the kill rate is literally what defines a win in a match. If the killer gets 3k+, it's a win. If he does not, he does not win. Very black and white. The average statement isn't about every match. It's the average.
As for the 62.5%, that translates to 2.5 kills per match. That means IF killers all had a 62.5% kill rate on average, then on average, they would be winning every other match, as the 2 isn't enough to win, but the .5 carries over into other matches (averaging, remember) which would then be a 3k for a win. This doesn't mean every match is like this. Just on average, a 62.5% would have killers winning roughly half of their matches.
I'm just pointing out that the majority of the killer's kill rates per the official stats are below BHVR's own 60% kill rate expectation. Too many people are demanding "true balance" be forced on the killers by giving them a 50% kill rate. If on average a killer has a 50% kill rate, then that literally translates to on average only getting 2 kills and not winning the match. If they truly were wanting a true balance, the kill rate would be 62.5%, as killers would win every other match. Now, do we WANT a true 50% win rate? I personally don't think so considering the nature of an asymetric game, but im trying to clear up the misunderstanding that somehow a 50% kill rate means 50% win rate, which it does not. That is on averaging never winning.
You're just repeating the same mistake.
The average match =/= average win rate. Kill rate =/= win rate. They are incredibly loosely related. Some killers have higher win rates on lower kill rates.
That means IF killers all had a 62.5% kill rate on average, then on average, they would be winning every other match, as the 2 isn't enough to win, but the .5 carries over into other matches (averaging, remember) which would then be a 3k for a win.
This is not true. This is blatantly, demonstrably, not true. That is the mistake I was pointing out. You are using the outcome of an average match to substitute for the actual winrate. They wouldn't be winning, on average, every other match. They would be winning every other average match. But the 'average match' never gets played. Think about it: If your theory was true, the overwhelming majority of matches should be 2Ks. How many 2Ks do you encounter, compared to all the other outcomes?
Again, they are unrelated. And no, a 62.5% kill rate would not become a 50% winrate. It'd likely sit closer to 60% winrate, if not higher, going by current statistics.
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@KazRen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650282#Comment_3650282
And if they have unbreakable? The survivors benefited more from that interaction cause there still is 2 other survivors on gens.
As opposed to three survivors on gens. Gens going slower is not a benefit to survivors.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650280#Comment_3650280
Gonna be honest here, I have no idea who Batusalen is. Enlighten me?
He basically made the same mistake you did: Taking the kill rate, inferring the outcome of the average match, and then considering that the average win-rate.
Weren't you in the last topic he tried to field that theory?
Anyway, a quick trick to realise that 'outcome of average match =/= average win rate' is by taking a sub-50% kill rate. If you take a kill rate of 45%, the average match outcome would be a 2K, with a 20% chance of it being a 1K. This would imply that the winrate would be 0%, which is realistically virtually impossible, as it'd require there to be not a single 3K+ anywhere in the dataset.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650303#Comment_3650303
If FTP to healthy, yes. Most of the time you FTP on dying teammate into injured to get use of BU, which is not disable DS. I mean DS disable if you're healthy.
OTR would be powerful if Endurance could stack with basekit BT, but its not. Though it should.
Some survivors can weaponize OTR and DS by body blocking while being healthy to take 3-4 hits. Disable if healthy and losing collision are needed.
But if I'm healthy and I pull a tunnel target off the hook, I may want to use FTP to improve their chances against a tunnelling killer. They shouldn't be punished by having their conditional perks disabled in the condition for which they are intended.
Some survivors can weaponize OTR and DS by body blocking while being healthy to take 3-4 hits. Disable if healthy and losing collision are needed.
I don't think this is as big a deal though, since them getting healthy requires time/resource investment from the survivors to begin with, so then a bodyblock becomes free pressure/slowdown. And if they go down, and you leave them slugged, that's huge pressure/slowdown. That's why I think DS was just so much healthier for the game, as it required another, single-use perk in order to overcome the counterplay to its offensive use, and even then it would waste a ton of time. OTR is much easier to use offensively, comparatively.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650266#Comment_3650266
Disable if healed.
If injured survivor with DS body block. Thats 1 survivors on the ground not doing anything and another one have to go for pick up.
only 1 survivor on Gen is killers’ advantage.
Disable if healed.
*FTPs you to disable your anti-tunnel*
No, being healed should not disable anti-tunnel perks. DS is fine overall, since trying to bodyblock with it will get you slugged out, giving the killer a ton of free pressure and slowdown.
OTR is a bigger problem in that regard, and should be reworked to no longer give Endurance, and instead produce a complete information black-out until conspic action: No grunts of pain, no footsteps, no blood pools, no aura reading, no screams, no killer instinct, and no scratch marks.
I think that in such a scenario, OTR might be the stronger anti-tunnel overall, and completely useless for anything other than preventing tunnelling.
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@OwlWithMustache said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650061#Comment_3650061
My sentiments exactly. The devs set the bar, and they achieved it. I have no idea how solo survivor is 40% escape rate, but I guess it proves that solo que issue is a mindset issue.
This doesn't prove any one side is better than the other, and its a shame that delusional people try to twist it to say "SEEEEE X IS TOO GOOD OR BAD, MUH STATS SHOWS IT" whenever we get these stats
"This doesn't prove any one side is better than the other"
I mean... it very obviously does. There's no other way to slice it, really.
All that can be argued about now is whether the game should be balanced or sacrifice balance for 'horror game'.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650005#Comment_3650005
So the majority of killers are losing their matches, yikes lol. 3k is a win.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650029#Comment_3650029
75% is a killer win. I'd say them losing the majority of their matches on average would suck as a killer. 62.5% kill rate is the halfway mark between a 2k and a 3k (where 3k is a win ie halfway between 50% and 75%). That would put killers at winning half their matches.
You've been listening to Batusalen too much.
You're getting the outcome of an average match confused with winrates. They're not the same thing. Nightlight statistics show the same thing: outcome of the average match is a 2K with a small trend towards 3K, but the actual rate of 3K+ is almost 50%. Killrate =/= winrate, because the kill distribution isn't neatly equal between all outcomes.
Nobody plays a perfectly average match. Killers are winning more than they are losing.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649262#Comment_3649262
Infinites before breakable walls, old sprint burst, insta heals, original bnp, old keys with hatch, no EGC so survivors can stay in and farm the killer for points or bully, survivors purposefully deranking back to brown to bully new killers. Also I can’t remember really but sabo did it permanently delete the hook or was it just down much longer?
There was a perma-sabo meta at one point, from what I've heard. Survivors would just go around the match disabling all hooks and the killer literally couldn't win except by bleeding people out. IIRC, it's either why the basement hooks are indestructible, or why the basement exists altogether.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649846#Comment_3649846
I do not think so. I mention this as a matter of course, but since the two do not have the same content in the first place, it is necessary to consider whether they are even in practice.
Survivors will deal slip damage to the killer's party, and those who cannot heal in time will die.
The killer controls the survivors by solving puzzles, and if you solve them three times, you will clear one, but there is a possibility that you will be forced to go back to the steps before you solve the puzzle once.
What matters is how feasible it is.
I do not think so. I mention this as a matter of course, but since the two do not have the same content in the first place, it is necessary to consider whether they are even in practice.
Perhaps, then, it's a dumb thing to say that survivors 'chase a gen for 90 seconds and then kill it in one hookstate'.
Or indeed, to call doing a gen 'Gen tunnelling'.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649834#Comment_3649834
Injury, down, and hook progress for survivors can be converted into repair progress for generators.
4 survivors kill 5 generators, which takes 90 seconds, and a killer gets 3 levels of hook progression and executes 1 survivor, and does this 4 times.
You can recover from injuries or down perms, so hook progress is compensation for the time it takes to hang on the hook.
Hook progress cannot be reduced, just as a generator cannot be requested to be repaired again after it has been repaired.
So the killer gets 12 checkpoints versus the survivors' 5? That's incredibly unfair odds, don't you think?
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@xltechno said:
Those who find tunneling generators inappropriate should swallow the following words:
Survivors can chase a generator for 90 seconds and then kill it with one hook stage.
Why can the killer regress the survivor objective, but the survivor can't regress the killer objective?
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I've been of the opinion for a while that there's something to be gained from re-examining Solo gens vs. Teamed gens. It doesn't make much sense to me that the safest way to do gens is also the most efficient.
Increasing base gen times but inverting the co-op penalty would give survivors a more meaningful, tactical choice between clumping together while risking greater disruption, or splitting up while taking longer.
Additionally, each individual down would reward the killer more, since the survivor removed would also reduce co-op opportunities, and thus more strongly impact gen speeds.
But therein also lies the reason this can't be implemented at the moment: it'd be a colossal buff to tunnelling and camping. Until those are dealt with, solo gens -must- be stronger.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648919#Comment_3648919
1) Your definition of "default skill expression" is still something you made up. There is zero default expectations from killers, except for "don't break any rules".
2) The act of tunneling is efficient because it leads to an efficient result. It actually creates more pressure to tunnel survivors, because it gives a sense of urgency earlier. If survivors know a killer is going to just rotate hooks among the survivors, there's zero urgency for a large part of the game, because the survivors know that none of them are actually in any danger for a long time.
3) No one is circumventing avenues of skill expression, because that's still not a real thing. If you really care about skill expression, you should complain about SWFs, and how voice comms circumvent avenues of skill expression.
4 and 5) Gen rushing is a pointless term, just like how tunneling is a pointless term. That's the entire point of the comparison. And no, we shouldn't have a special term for hyper specific survivor scenarios, because we don't have a special term for hyper specific killer scenarios. Many people are fine with tunneling applying, all the way, from casual (or incidental) tunneling, to hardcore hyper specific tunneling. There's zero difference in the terms used for killers. Likewise, Gen rushing should also be a pointless term that covers all the way from casual (or incidental) tunneling, to hardcore hyper specific tunneling.
Just wanted to chime in on point no. 3: Tunnelling circumvents macro skill, while Swiffer comms don't circumvent any skill expression, just a void of information.
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@Nathan13 said:
I think BHVR has done everything they can to reduce camping/tunneling/slugging. There comes a time where we need to accept the fact that players are gonna play however they want to play no matter how we feel about it.
They absolutely haven't. And we had a time where tunnelling was less common, due in large part to DS having a five second stun on it. BHVR then harshly nerfed that. BHVR has put in close to zero effort to deal with most of these issues. Negative effort, even, when it comes to tunnelling.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648899#Comment_3648899
Regardless of whether I agree with any of this, you'll acknowledge that this isn't a defence of your original statement, right? Your original statement is still wrong. Self healing was absurdly powerful in the final stages of Circle because it worked with the already very powerful medkits, so it wasn't just "efficient". Then you said that "healing got nerfed", which is flat out wrong, that just didn't happen.
Having laid that out, I don't mind moving on to this new stuff.
So, obviously Circle hasn't "been effectively removed", setting down a boon to get a zone of We'll Make It is still pretty powerful. It was removed as an avenue for self healing, sure, but the perk is still absolutely worth running. Beyond that, even if we were to agree that killers are struggling because survivors just aren't healing... that doesn't mean it was okay before, when injuries just flat out didn't matter.
I do think there's a degree to which complaints about current survivor efficiency aren't valid, but that comes from the fact that survivor efficiency is something killer players are meant to dismantle with smart play and spread pressure, not that the state of things is actually bad for killers because they dared to complain about ridiculous self healing speed.
Regardless of whether I agree with any of this, you'll acknowledge that this isn't a defence of your original statement, right? Your original statement is still wrong. Self healing was absurdly powerful in the final stages of Circle because it worked with the already very powerful medkits, so it wasn't just "efficient". Then you said that "healing got nerfed", which is flat out wrong, that just didn't happen.
A misnomer then. 'Healing' as in, 'trying to stay healed up'. That did get nerfed.
So, obviously Circle hasn't "been effectively removed"
It's well outside the meta now and largely unfeasible for solo play. Maybe some swiffers will still use it, but they're probably going to resort to more effective options.
that doesn't mean it was okay before, when injuries just flat out didn't matter.
Point is that they did matter. Because all that time spent on self-caring was -not- spent on gens. Which goes back to @I_Tunnel 's point: people used to heal a lot, and now they're much more likely to stay injured. Likely because, especially in solo queue, healing (As in the effort to stay healthy) did cop a hefty nerf.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648851#Comment_3648851
That first line is shockingly misleading, wow.
I don't remember when survivors were able to heal efficiently and there was outcry on the forums, no. I remember that for years self-healing was pretty overpowered, and people sort of had a sustained general irritation with that which reached a fever pitch when Circle of Healing pushed it into overdrive, is that what you're referring to? I also do not remember when healing got nerfed, but I do remember that medkits and Circle of Healing specifically were nerfed in a very specific way.
The rest of your post is kind of an exaggeration along those lines, though it's at least closer. Some people here do act like they should get to deny unhooks, and some people did complain about the concept of boons rather than just (rightfully) complaining about CoH, so I won't really call you out on those. I just wanted to correct that first part, because it's a doozy.
I remember that for years self-healing was pretty overpowered
But the second it's gone, killers are having more trouble than ever with keeping pace, somehow. Could it not be the case that people frantically self-caring in the corner instead of staying injured on a gen, ultimately ends up awarding the killer more time?
Circle of Healing, in my opinion, is likely fairly emblematic of this problem. By itself, in most cases, the final state of CoH before it was effectively removed was tremendously inefficient, barring the self-heal speed. Lots of forum killers also posited that a problem with CoH was that it worked best when placed far from the action, unlike the other boons.
But the further CoH gets placed from the action, the worse its efficiency becomes. And the set-up time involved in the boon would demand at least two successful heals to break even, provided there is no travel time involved at all.
CoH was regarded as a problem for hit-and-run playstyles, but there was plenty of comments from the community saying they were seeing CoH produce net negatives for the survivors in terms of time efficiency.
But it had to be removed. So now no one is going to bother dumping 16+ seconds on a totem just to get Botany, instead opting to sink that time into gens.
These issues that are now being complained about, of survivor efficiency, are absolutely in part due to killer complaints.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648662#Comment_3648662
Ah yes. The Survivors have nothing to do but gens (Not healing, or unhooking, or opening chests or doing totems..) but the poor, mean Killer can always just play badly and not tunnel, even if it's the optimal play!
Just more 'The Killer is responsible for Survivor fun' while absolving Survivors of the reverse.
Remember when survivors were able to heal efficiently and there was outcry on the forums, so healing got nerfed?
Remember how forum killers are also adamant that they should be allowed to deny unhooks?
Remember how forum killers were so upset over the concept of boon perks?
The only thing that hasn't been touched is chests, which were a waste of time no matter what.
We used to have slower games, but killers weren't happy with that either, so now everything that isn't holding M1 on gens has been nerfed down and out. With survivors being left with nothing but gens, now forum killers are upset that survivors are, in fact, doing gens.
The whole problem here is that 'gens too fast' is defined purely and exclusively by the match outcome. Did the killer get fewer than three kills? 'Gens too fast'. Any time a killer loses? 'Gens too fast'. The only thing that'll make forum killers happy is if the kill rate is at roughly 87.5%, and the only way a survivor can ever escape is via the hatch.
Actually, never mind. Hatch will cop complaints as well, then.
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@Raptorrotas said:
"It's tunneling because x killers focus x survivors out of 4".
"It's not genrush/tunnel because x survivors focus x gens out of 7."
At any given time each survivor is only targeting one generator. Theyre getting 1 out asap. (Sounds like what killers do when tunneling while twirling their evil mustaches)
If they did as they wanted to killer to, every survivor would need to jump between multiple gens and spread the progress between all 7 gens evenly.
Except the game's asymmetrical, and gens and survivors aren't properly comparable.
If they are supposed to be, can survivors also get hookstate regression?
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Calling it 'gen tunnelling' is pretty disingenuous when survivors have literally nothing else to do. Killers have the option to not tunnel, but survivors can't do anything other than gens.
It feels like every time survivors get nerfed, the crosshairs just move on to the next thing to point at and say 'this! This is why I lose all the time!'. But with every nerf, the bar just drops lower, and now we're at 'survivors were doing their objective at all' being the problem.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648258#Comment_3648258
Girl can you be so serious with me and stop shaming other’s on how they choose to play the game. Tunneling is a valid strategy there’s nothing I need to accept because I’m secure in the way I play and I won’t let survivors force me into playing by a magical non existent rule book. People seem to have lost the meaning of the word balance. Balancing something is to not add something to one side too much or else it’ll be too heavy and tip off the scale, basekit BT? Added. Anti Face Camping? Added. Gen speed perk for survivors every new chapter when killer’s last gen REgression perk was CALL OF BRINE from when I first got this game with onryo’s release? Checked. Get a grip.
People seem to have lost the meaning of the word balance. Balancing something is to not add something to one side too much or else it’ll be too heavy and tip off the scale
That's a bit ironic...
basekit BT? Added. Anti Face Camping? Added.
We'll get to this in a moment...
Gen speed perk for survivors every new chapter
I think the last gen speed perk to be released was in Tools of Torment with Friendly Competition, a notably awful perk with a pickrate of .37%, according to Nightlight. That's not exactly 'every chapter'.
when killer’s last gen REgression perk was CALL OF BRINE from when I first got this game with onryo’s release?
Killers have a wealth of regression and stalling perks coming in a variety of flavours. Any new ones would not necessarily add to the game as they would achieve the same thing the others do, just in a different way.
But now the big one: You claim that people here have lost the meaning of the word 'balance', and you seem to be eager to argue that with all the buffs survivors have received, killers are overdue for some on their side. However, when we look at the stats on Nightlight, we can see that killers average to a 56.63% kill rate, with a near 50% 3K+ rate. Which means that killers are, overall, doing better than survivors are.
Basekit BT was added, anti-facecamp was added, anti-3-gen was added, we got the HUD update, and in spite of all of that, survivors are still, statistically, the weaker party.
Demanding compensatory buffs for killers whenever the survivors get anything is therefor not pushing for balance, it's pushing to maintain the advantage killers are at.
Besides, even if we were to keep up a childish game of 'tit for tat', I'd like to remind you that 6.1 kicked this whole shebang off with a number of extensive killer buffs and survivor nerfs.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648118#Comment_3648118
And that’s okay! Killers should have a choice on rather they want to tunnel or not and if they see fit to the situation. Me personally I always do what’s the most optimal in all situations and I don’t want my choices taken away or limited because this very valid strategy in this game has such a communal stigma around it. Historically survivors have had the most broken things in the game and this little shift is healthy, survivors can still escape and to the killers that tunnel they’ll just start to face harder and harder survivors that’ll punish them for tunneling. The game hasn’t been healthier in that sense. I hope you find your fun and have a good day
If your ground principle is 'I don't care about anyone's fun but mine', you can expect people to respond to your complaints with a resounding 'Then I don't care about your fun either'.
You'll just have to suffer OTR.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648008#Comment_3648008
For your suggestion to work, the base time required to reach second hook stage/be sacrificed would have to be reduced to make up for the slowdown when Survivor are on gens. Otherwise even when the Killer leaves the hook and chases one Survivor off the gen, the other two Survivors will be encouraged to choose "gens over friends" instead of saving their hooked teammate asap while the Killer is chasing another Survivor.
Using doing gens as a measure to slow down hook states may also backfire if the Killer uses the Grim Embrace DMS combo to push Survivors off gens. Having this hook state slowdown base kit also means the devs will have a harder time if they want to introduce more gen block perks in the future.
I think having something like a basekit Monstrous Shrine may have the potential to encourage more Killers to leave the hook and the base hook state duration could be increased at the same time as long as the devs can fix the interaction to work between floors (Game, Midwich)
Obviously this won't really impact Nurse players but punishing the rest of the Killer roster just to rein in one Killer doesn't really make sense
For your suggestion to work, the base time required to reach second hook stage/be sacrificed would have to be reduced to make up for the slowdown when Survivor are on gens. Otherwise even when the Killer leaves the hook and chases one Survivor off the gen, the other two Survivors will be encouraged to choose "gens over friends" instead of saving their hooked teammate asap while the Killer is chasing another Survivor.
Not at all. It'd depend on the numbers. Provisionally, I had the idea of having each survivor on a gen slow the hook timer by 5% per survivor. This way, one survivor would slow it down by 5% (Negligible), two survivors would slow it by 20% (Not enough), but three would slow it by 45% (Actual anti-camp).
Keep in mind as well that you need to compare situations where the killer does not camp. Yes, they can leave their ally on the hook if the killer doesn't camp, but they don't buy themselves enough time to make a difference, and the extra survivor is going to spend all that time incapacitated, instead of contributing to the survivors' efforts, so it doesn't benefit the survivors to leave him hanging.
Using doing gens as a measure to slow down hook states may also backfire if the Killer uses the Grim Embrace DMS combo to push Survivors off gens. Having this hook state slowdown base kit also means the devs will have a harder time if they want to introduce more gen block perks in the future.
That is a bigger issue, definitely, that'll need some kind of work-around. Though I'm not sure how long Grim Embrace will last in its current state, it seems pretty unhealthy.
I think having something like a basekit Monstrous Shrine may have the potential to encourage more Killers to leave the hook and the base hook state duration could be increased at the same time as long as the devs can fix the interaction to work between floors (Game, Midwich)
Honestly, gameplay-wise, I think basement should be deleted. It only serves to bolster tunnelling and camping, it really just hurts the game's health.
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@Vorahk08 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647789#Comment_3647789
Give SWF repair/heal speed penalties.
I'm being serious. If they want to play together, then the can be forced to do everything together.
Give SWF repair/heal speed penalties.
"Punish all swiffers, clearly too stronk, too OP, nerf!"
Meanwhile, my team and I sharing approximately 2 braincells between us:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv_qjBS1fvI -
@appleas said:
Afc being buffed to counter proxy camp would lead to more issues like small maps/floors, non mobile Killers struggling due to their design making them not viable for moving across the map.
Unless BHVR comes up with some basekit for non mobile killers to get across the map faster, proxy camping can't be punished.
I think it can be done, but not within the framework BHVR has picked. The 'bar builds until self-unhook' thing just won't do anything.
If you want the killer to stop camping, make the anti-camp disable upon them doing something else.
My idea was to slow the hook timer based on how many survivors are on gens, but make the effect scale exponentially. So if all other survivors are on gens, the timer barely progresses, but if the killer forces even one survivor off a gen, the pressure is back with survivors.
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I feel like I should also point out that survivor perks should be allowed to do a thing, and shouldn't unconditionally be entirely controllable by the killer. Additionally, a hookstate is the highest possible price a survivor can pay. It's perfectly fine that OTR has two okay effects on it that work if the killer doesn't tunnel, paired with one strong effect that works if they do.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647640#Comment_3647640
I am so fed up with the “base kit base kit base kit” Jesus can killers play the game? Tunneling is “bad” because it’s a taboo in the community but it is a valid strategy nonetheless. I thank goodness everyday that base kit unbreakable was dropped because that would’ve broke the game.
Giving me 'Debbie's monologue' vibes, lol.
"So I camped. So, I tunnelled. So I ruin the game for one survivor after another? Aren't I a human being? Don't I yearn, and ache, and slug? Don't I deserve love?
,,,And 4Ks?"
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@concubined said:
I think ever since the hype of this perk died down people are not acknowledging just how insane it is.
First of all, it is three perks in one and the requirement to activate it is just to be unhooked which happens every game. It’s first effect - Aura hiding. Second - leaves you completely silent. Third - Endurance. The fact that it grants survivors all three of these very powerful effects that traditionally survivors would have to waste perk slots for each and it would’ve been worth it because it’s so good but now they can just slap on one perk and have other 3 occupied by other strong perks, and for a whole 80 seconds with no requirements is problematic on its own but I wanna focus more on the deal that when survivors commit a conspicuous action they have OTR “disabled”, it doesn’t, only one effect does the other two persists for the rest of the 80 seconds duration.
With the upcoming DS rework which I’m assuming to be an unasked-for buff, I have little to no faith in BHVR to tone down OTR to its intended level before new DS’s release. Granting all three those effects is one thing but please uphold your end of the deal and make it where if a survivor does something conspicuous or they’re hit the perk disables entirely.
It is extremely harsh on killers that might not even be necessary tunneling and have already hooked a new survivor and come back to a survivor that’s completely silent and have their auras hidden. Examples but not limited to - Aura Huntress or Spirit.
I’m curious for the community’s feedback as I believe I’ve been very reasonable and if by miracle a developer is reading this I can only hope by another miracle you take this into consideration.
and for a whole 80 seconds with no requirements
Except for, you know...
The whole 'you have to DIE to use this' thingy.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647661#Comment_3647661
Ahhh my bad, my brain blanked the 20% haste boost for the killer that stays somehow (yikes! Scary). Objection withdrawn! 😅
I'll take this opportunity for some alternative names:
- Boon: Railroad - Boon: Transfer Consciousness, Boon: Planar Shift.
- Hex: Slow Start - Hex: Awakened Wrath, Hex: Rising Evil
Brutal regarding your headset dude... hopefully something copious amounts of black electrical tape can fix 😨
Oh, it's NOT haste! I want to clear that up straight away! Action speed refers to the time it takes for a killer to kick gens, doors, pallets, and picking up and hooking survivors.
I believe Fire Up uses the same stat.
The name 'Railroad', by the way, is a reference to the 'Underground Railroad', used to smuggle slaves to freedom. And I think Slow Start is an alright name, though I'm sure there's some more lore-themed names that could serve as well.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647595#Comment_3647595
Some ideas I actually real like there.
Boon: Railroad - Sounds pretty nuts actually, and a rather crazy use of boons; very ingenuitive, and I like the idea of 1 shot boons... perhaps breaking the totem would be interesting to create a weakness from Hex: Pentimento. I think there are questions to think about, such as what happens if 2 of them are in play, there is the possibility of using it to troll, but nothing that kills the idea.
Cover of Darkness - strikes me as layering over OTR. I agree with having a perk with this principle, but I'd wanna try to come up with something a little more distinct from OTR.
Hex: Slow Start - I again like the principle, and an anti rush perk is something I'd like to see in the general pool. I'd feel like a Hex perk shouldn't completely shutdown though... perhaps give it a starting 24% slowdown that decays down to 6% slowdown (3 minutes)?
Hex: Manufacturing Failure - Not so convinced on this one, especially as a hex perk. Would be rather weak for what is in essence funtionally the same as a Lightborn/Forced Hesitation that doesn't help you get a down, and can't even stop sabo squads. I'd prefer something that helps during 3 man hook rushes to get everyone out at gate.
Yeah, Cover of Darkness is basically a repurposed idea I had for an OTR rework. I'd rather OTR work like that, but I doubt BHVR will ever figure that one out.
For Slow Start: It won't disable fully when destroyed. The longer it's been up, the bigger the action speed bonus for the killer, and that would stay, even if the totem is destroyed.
Manufacturing Failure: I think I forgot to remove the Hex tag. I do recall thinking it would work fine as a non-hex. Bit unfocused today as I'm pissed off that my $250, brand new headset is essentially already broken.
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-- Survivor perks --
Boon: Railroad
Once this boon has been placed on a totem, Railroad activates. While Railroad is active, and a survivor is hooked, after ten seconds, a hooked survivor is moved to a hook within this boon's aura radius, after which the boon is deactivated.
Intended for anti-camp. Allows you to make saves against a proxy-camping killer, though at significant additional time cost.
Cover of Darkness
Cover of Darkness activates once the survivor is unhooked by any means. While Cover of Darkness is active, the survivor's footsteps are silenced, their aura can't be read, they make no grunts of pain, they leave no blood pools, they leave no scratch marks, and can't be made to scream. Cover of Darkness lasts for 60 seconds, or until the survivor performs a conspicuous action.
Intended for anti-tunnel. Makes you virtually impossible to track.
-- Killer perks --
Hex: Slow Start
While this hex is active, Slow Start gains a token every ten seconds, to a maximum of 20. Additionally, all survivors incur a repair speed penalty of 20%, minus 1% per token, and the killer's action speeds are increased by 1% per token.
If Slow Start is broken, it can no longer gain tokens, and the repair speed penalty is removed. However, the action speed bonus will persist.
Intended to boost killers' poor early game somewhat. Breaking the hex early is rewarded, but not mandatory. The action speed increase can also help against bully squads, as it makes pick-ups slightly safer.
Hex: Manufacturing Failure
Whenever you down a survivor, all survivors within 24 meters of the downed survivor will have their items disabled for 10 seconds.
Anti-bully-squad. Disables flashlights and firecrackers/flashbangs.
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You would not like the fall-out of Hatch removal, I can tell you that.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645961#Comment_3645961
If you're chasing one survivor, you can't pressure gens. The other survivors are safe to work them. A 30sec chase in a 3v1 3gen is more than enough to end the game. Unless the killer is full meta, insta down they can no longer win 3 gens at 3v1
That would imply that the only way they could win it before the 3-gen change was by locking those gens down for the full 60 minutes, and no, that did not happen.
Again, the survivor you choose to chase is not safe. Yes, you may lose that last gen in the process, deal with it. If you're just running around kicking gens and refusing to chase, you're not going to keep that last gen locked up either, anymore. And there's a number of killers that wouldn't let you do that, either.
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Did you equip Distressing? Because you make my heart beat faster!
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Deadline could've been interesting if it had one of the two drawbacks, but it's overburdened, so I wouldn't bother. Boon: Illumination is a throw perk, leaving only Champion of Light. That one could be interesting, but I don't know if it's applicable enough to salvage the paragraph.
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@Glamrock100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645968#Comment_3645968
I disagree, 3 gen merchant was caused by gen rushing, it was only chess merchant when it was a play style, there's a difference
3-gen merchant IS chess merchant.
@Glamrock100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645966#Comment_3645966
You'd be surprised how many trails are gen rushed
Only because the definition of 'genrush' changed from 'survivors bring a loadout stacked with gen speed improving perks and tools' to 'a survivor completed a gen once'.
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@ghost91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645959#Comment_3645959
Gen rushing is the main reason behind 3 gen merchant, it's nuts
That's not true at all. Chess Merchant is just an easy way to win, it's nothing to do with genrushing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645916#Comment_3645916
Lone wolf is a playstyle problem that needs to be nerfed.
And if nerfing lone wolf perks isn't enough, then BHVR could also rework the survivor win condition to be more team based. Solo q needs for the survivors to feel like a team. That should be the #1 priority.
Your problem is that you're approaching this with the intent to nerf survivors, not with the intent to fix the 'lone wolf' playstyle.
You're just using this 'lone wolf' excuse to squeeze out more survivor nerfs.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645612#Comment_3645612
No, you're completely safe if you run away as soon as you see the HUD show the killer is out of chase or as soon as you hear the TR. Eventually the gens will be blocked to the killer so there's nothing to lose in running away until you know the killer is gone.
How are they 'completely safe'? Did they find infinites? Because barring that, there's no way for them to be completely safe.
You made the choice to prioritise gen lockdown, and prioritise keeping the gens from being done over getting downs and progressing your objective. This nerf is specifically meant to address that. You're not supposed to be able to lock it down forever anymore.
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@ghost91 said:
Some will say gen rushing is not a thing, but it is. Gens get popped so quickly, even perks can help that... The devs unfortunately nerf killer perks that were perfect, and the generator update is basically a nerf to killer. it's not even about being good anymore, games are like 8, minutes sometimes, and then loops are every 8 meters at this point and the game is just a little annoying at times. I'm hoping Behavior can work there magic and pake gens take longer or something, killers shouldn't have to gen perks to slow people down, especially when there nerfed 24/7.
"and the generator update is basically a nerf to killer."
If you're genuinely getting genrushed, your match shouldn't last long enough to run into the anti-3-gen, though.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645598#Comment_3645598
Waste ~45 seconds on chase with survivor you won't hook. Waste ~30 seconds on finding survivors somewhere else.
If you really believe that killer could allow himself just send to trashcan ~1m15sec of his time in the middle of the match for no reason... I wouldn't even be surprised.
Your entire problem is that there is another survivor that is refusing to engage with the game, so you have plenty of extra time to begin with. You're nowhere near struggling for time if you can't find that distortion user by any means.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645583#Comment_3645583
Defending gens is fundamental to a killer completing their objective. That's why killers have a basekit ability to cause gen regression and a dozen or so perks to cause gen regression or notify them when gens are being worked on.
Again, we're talking about "playing normally". Killers defending a 3 gen from the start and not taking chases unless it was completely safe to do so was decided to be not playing normally. The opposite should be true as well. Survivors avoiding their objective until they have absolute certainty they can do so safe from being hooked shouldn't be considered playing normally either. Both sides should be expected to take a risk.
Survivors avoiding their objective until they have absolute certainty they can do so safe from being hooked shouldn't be considered playing normally either. Both sides should be expected to take a risk.
Survivors are literally never safe from being hooked. They are still taking risks by working on the gens where the killer knows they'll be.
It's the killer that's refusing to take any risks here by refusing to chase. That's what the anti-3-gen is for.