Firellius
Firellius
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668706#Comment_3668706
Picking comp players beating up solo queue with the 2 killers (Blight/Nurse) out of a 34 Killer roster who can consistently do this is not the best take
You can pick pretty much any killer, it won't make too much of a difference. Even the Twins have someone with an 800+ winstreak going.
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Even if killers were to get weaned off tunnelling somehow, the idea that this must unconditionally mean that killers would experience some radical dip in killrates is entirely unproven. Didn't Hens run an experiment of 'no tunnelling, no camping, no slugging, and no killer power' and still come out to a 90%+ killrate?
'You need to tunnel to win' has been the anthem since 6.1, but since then, the game has gotten consistently better and better for killers (With a dip with MFT) and the same excuse still gets trotted out. I want to see what actually happens to the statistics if tunnelling were to actually take a hit. No conjecture.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666703#Comment_3666703
Might be worth testing.
How about in the same ptb we test regressing completed gens. Both sides have irreversible failstates.
No no, regressing a completed gen would be like resurrecting a killed survivor.
@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666700#Comment_3666700
Do I have to say which is more accurate, a month or a year? If you want to move away from statistics, go ahead. And it seems that my annotations were ignored, so if you want to be fair, you can compare them with February and March respectively. If the development is announced.
You don't need to say it, you just need to think about it.
Do you really think that statistics from literally 10 patches ago are going to be relevant to the current state of the game?
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666499#Comment_3666499
I'd like to think that some sirvivors simply dont want to use the same strategies as themselves:
- Each survivor focuses 1 gen from start to finish: "thats normal play"
- Killer does the same to 1 urvivor: "tunnel bad"
I think people simply subconsciously block themselves from seeing that tunneling is what survivors do as "normal gameplay"
My guy, if a survivor laser-focuses on ono specific gen, he's throwing. It'll be way too easy for the killer to interfere and neutralize.
It's a completely false equivalence. Or do you think survivors should, basekit, be able to recover hookstates too?
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@xltechno said:
I mention it because it may need some explanation. The average is only determined from the whole. Even if there are no 50% of people in the world, if there are an equal number of 60% people and 40% people, the average is 50%.
If a killer's kill rate is 70%, there may be a polarization between survivors who are killed at 90% and survivors who are killed at 50%.
In addition, what the development has shown is only for January, when MFT was weakened and the 3 gens system was not functioning. What we should really refer to is the total for the past year. Some players know what this means.
So you -want- to use data not reflective of the current state of the game so that the results better align with your biases?
Why stop at the past year at that point, why not take MoM release day's killrates instead?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666530#Comment_3666530
Bare minimum would be to put DS back to 5 second stun. They should also have increased the hook timer to 90 seconds to combat tunneling and camping both, to make killers choose between giving up gens to focus one person out of the game.
Neither of those changes does anything whatsoever of the killer isn't tunneling, and can't be 'weaponized'. Go patrol gens, interrupt gen progress and chase someone else. You know, progress the game instead of just waiting for an unhook to chase that one guy you happened to find first.
ETA: The current only play against tunneling is to gen rush. That's it, that's the entirely of 'playing well' for 3/4 of the survivor team during a hard tunneling killer match.
And since genrushing can't be employed mid-match, it has to be done from the start.
Cue 'why are gens so fast' complaints.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
This probably isn't true, but...
I feel like the anti-camp feature has incentivized killers to camp. Where once there was no skill expression, there is now a new feature for Killers to learn to play around. As a result, players have preoccupied themselves with learning the limits of the new system and finding ways to "out-play" it.
Camping & Tunneling have always been prevalent, so its hard to say whether or not it's gone up. I just know my tolerance for it goes down with each game.
I was thinking something similar. Camping always felt like a bit of an exploit, which might've left people a little uncertain about whether or not it's permissible.
But now that we have this system, it means BHVR looked at it and declared it fully allowed. Just practice social distancing so you don't infect the survivors with your terminal case of competitivitis.
The 'anti-camp' feels more like a tacit green light.
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Pretty sure they'd need to renegotiate all of the licenses acquired so far, so DBD2 would likely launch without Myers, Bubba, Freddy, Onryo, Wesker, Pyramid Head, Pinhead, Pig, etc.
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I guess it can have value, but the primary way it's going to come in handy is if you're using a toolbox to genrush, and I don't like doing that.
I don't like bringing items in much in general, tbh.
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@sinkra said:
After Adrenaline gets nerfed I can't imagine this perk will be allowed to stay they most used perk with the value it brings. MFT was nerfed because it extended chases by 20%, windows goes much further than that. It can turn a chase from 10 seconds into a minute plus with the amount of map awareness it gives.
windows goes much further than that.
Windows of Opportunity increases chase time by literally 0%. Nothing it does cannot be achieved without it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
They can definitely HWID ban the monitor. Whether or not that will trigger on your account, I don't know.
How would they HWID ban a monitor? Why, even?
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@Xernoton said:
This would be impossible to balance. The repair speed boost would need to be huge to make up for a dead survivor. But when a killer does their job, then someone will die eventually. Let's say they kill someone at 1 gen left and now the others get the repair speed. How is that fair? It's pretty much guaranteed that the last gen will be done in a few seconds and then 2 survivors escape at the very least.
Meaning, killers would be punished for simply playing the game with the only way to work around this being to slug all survivors.
Make it weaker though and it doesn't help in the situations it should help but only in examples like the above, which would lead to even more tunneling.
Theoretically, you could counterbalance it by reducing gen speeds with each completed gen as well.
For example: what if every killed survivor increases repair speed by 20%, but every completed gen reduces repair speed by 5%? This way, an early tunnel kill will increase repair speeds, but spreading hooks will net up to 20% free slowdown, which gets balanced to 0% upon a survivor's death.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/406847/this-game-is-one-sided-lol
You mean, like in any other competitive game? Even in MTG, with infinite possible combinations of cards to make a deck, each expansion would have a number of "META decks" that dictates what strategies are viable or not in high ranks.
Best character, best weapon, best perk combination, best attacks... no matter the genre, there would always be a "better" / most efficient way to play. If you don't like that aspect of the game, maybe it's just that competitive games are not for you.
Yep. To quote from Warframe: "There will always be a Draco".
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662927#Comment_3662927
But it still was a Hex perk. Doesn´t matter if the survivors had to cleanse it once or 5 times. Its still a perk (actually 2) that the killer lost in exchange for a longer match. There were 4 survivors in a match. So everyone had to cleanse 1 or 2 hex perks. That isn´t overwhelming much in comparison.
I think i had like 2 overall matches, where i cleansed all 5 totems alone. But i went into the match with the mindset and build to get rid of totems. Which is also something, no one does anymore.
The passive slowdown, that wasn´t punishing new survivors, like the skill check Ruin, while also giving killers an incentive to constantly switch targets. Made the perfect match prolonging meta we had. Unlike what came afterwards. With the gen kick meta, or gen block meta, or slug meta...
But it still was a Hex perk. Doesn´t matter if the survivors had to cleanse it once or 5 times. Its still a perk (actually 2) that the killer lost in exchange for a longer match. There were 4 survivors in a match. So everyone had to cleanse 1 or 2 hex perks. That isn´t overwhelming much in comparison.
That's still 70 seconds worth of time total, minimum, regardless of whether it's split or not. That's an obscene amount of slowdown. As I've stated in response to the age-old adage of 'Just do bones': Doing the bones makes it better slowdown than a Thanatophobia in a match where everyone has No Mither.
The passive slowdown, that wasn´t punishing new survivors, like the skill check Ruin, while also giving killers an incentive to constantly switch targets. Made the perfect match prolonging meta we had. Unlike what came afterwards. With the gen kick meta, or gen block meta, or slug meta...
I don't know why we're arguing Ruin because I'm pretty sure we're in agreement on that thing. It did not deserve the nerf it got.
But PentaUndying was broken and did deserve its nerf.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662900#Comment_3662900
Whats the problem with lost Progess? Its a pvp game. Both sides use perks to make the other side lose progress. Thats the whole point of the perks.
Also, as you say, its a Hex perk. Killer could lose it without getting anything from it. Which is why most Hex perks have become rarely seen. Since no one equips them anymore. A killer losing 1 perk weighs heavier than a survivor losing 20-30 seconds of gen progress, by staying away for 40-60 seconds.
Whats the problem with lost Progess?
Why are you asking me? I'm saying Ruin was a good perk.
Also, as you say, its a Hex perk. Killer could lose it without getting anything from it.
Yes, but that's also why PentaUndying was a problem, because it could effectively remove the downside it had to counterbalance how powerful it was.
A killer losing 1 perk weighs heavier than a survivor losing 20-30 seconds of gen progress, by staying away for 40-60 seconds.
I think that's not a very accurate representation of what happens in game. If the survivors break the Hex before the first hook, they spent time not on generators at the point of the game where survivors are at their strongest, which could break them up in the long run. If they didn't cleanse it, it's going to put in more work than 20-30 seconds.
Ruin was good, before it got senselessly axed. That wasn't the problem. But taking a hex perk and then making it not a hex perk is just flatly too strong, which is why PentaUndying had to go.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662878#Comment_3662878
At 200% regression it still was only regressing at half the speed a single survivor takes to repair.
Yes, that survivor lost some progress. But assuming that the 2 survivors came back to the same gen, the lost progress was meaningless.
Pretending that Ruin guaranteed a 3k+ for killers is ridiculous. With how popular Ruin was, kill rates would have peaked to never seen highs.
Lost progression is never meaningless. IF one of the other survivors makes it to that gen, they can stop the regression, but that's a pretty big IF. And it's still lost progress, which the killer didn't need to activate in any way.
Pretending that Ruin guaranteed a 3k+ for killers is ridiculous.
I didn't say that. I said that if Ruin wasn't found before first hook, it guaranteed a 3K+. The fact that it's a hex and thus could be cleansed is the only spanner in the works. Removing that makes it broken, which is why PentaUndying was not okay.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662153#Comment_3662153
Undying was trash after its nerf.
Penta Undying + Ruin was healthy. As it required the killer to constantly switch targets. But didn´t force survivors to cleanse 5 totems, since Ruin had no effect when a gen was worked on.
You're vastly underestimating how powerful Ruin was. If Ruin wasn't found before first hook, it was a guaranteed 3K+ for the killer. Yeah, Ruin doesn't have any effect on a gen that's being worked on, but if someone wants to go for the save, they basically give up a huge chunk of progress on their gen. Adding up to a whole generator in extra time investment to get rid of it was absolutely crippling and it had to be removed.
Undying + Ruin was solidly powerful and a valuable tool. PentaUndying + Ruin ranged from being exactly that, to being an RNG dictated free win.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662821#Comment_3662821
The rescuers only have a maximum of 2 hits before they escape. If two survivors come to the rescue, three survivors will be born with one hit, and one of them will do his best to chase. Even if a tunnel were dug, the target would be quite far away.
But this does not do anything to stop the killer from tunnelling, does it?
Yeah, it's going to take a bit longer for the killer to get the re-down, but with so many survivor resources invested in buying that extra time, they can afford to.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3662251#Comment_3662251
Please read until the second half. If you want to prevent tunnels from occurring in the first place, you should buy time even if the survivor who successfully rescues you takes two hits and goes down. Survivors who are trapped in a tunnel cannot escape because there is not enough help from those around them. There just isn't enough effort between the survivors.
My guy, you suggest giving the killer up to three free hits, one of which would be a free down, and then say that it's the survivor's fault if they're still getting tunnelled.
You're basically insisting that survivors should hard reward the killer for tunnelling, and that it's their fault if the killer decides to tunnel in spite of all that.
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@Moz said:
It's been 7 years and I've yet to read a sound proposal on how BHVR could remove tunneling, slugging or camping while also still keeping the game as balanced and competitive as possible.
DS back to 5 seconds would be a solid start, for one.
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661528#Comment_3661528
You can't remove tunneling in the current format without either some major buffs to some killers/perks or nerfs to maps. Like it is so cool when I decide to play an m1 and I get Iron Works 2 with 3 i pallet loops that are just unmindgameable.
They can cross that bridge when they get to it. We got the exact same claims before 6.1., then killers got all those major buffs, and tunnelling just became more prevalent.
So now tunnelling should be nerfed first, and then we can see if killers actually need buffs.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661528#Comment_3661528
i dont see a fix for this, we just had a game vs. a huntress that didnt tunnel, result 4 escapes and some people dragging time at the open gates. If thats what we give killers when they play nice, why should they? (im not advocating for tunneling, i hate it, but i think some is ruining it for a lot of other people by beeing asshats).
And survivors that try to play nice will be tunnelled, camped, slugged to death, hit on hook, nodded at, WS-spammed and more. Doesn't mean we can't at least push tunnelling back a bit with DS going back to 5 seconds.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661872#Comment_3661872
Yaa, the bodyblocking was awful. And yes the mechanic deserved retooling. But can you really say what made it through in its place is any better? Seems anti-tunneling just became zero sum in the end. My guess is they aren’t reverting nerfs (to survivor things anyway) because they’re content with their stats.
But can you really say what made it through in its place is any better?
Hah, no. But it's better for the killer, and I think that's all that matters to BHVR at the moment.
@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659692#Comment_3659692
I firmly believe, that Undying Ruin was the healthiest slowdown meta we ever had. Killers that wanted to get anything from that combo, would have needed to constantly pressure gens. Which resulted in less camping/tunneling.
Depends on which Undying/Ruin you're talking about. Penta-Undying was bad, but Undying/Ruin after the Undying nerf was really good.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661528#Comment_3661528
The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661574#Comment_3661574
Many survivors do not understand why they are suffering from tunneling behavior from the killer. Therefore, I will try to make speculations and deviate from the facts. None of the players, at least from Japan or Korea, who understand DBD's game system, complain about the tunnels and camps. Chinese don't, but they still have the means and knowledge to counter tunnels and camps.
This is not because of differences in thinking, but because They have actually succeeded against these, and They have a proven record.
The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.
Except it disables OTR, and DS got demolished, so it's one partial sprint burst (Which also got nerfed in 6.1), and then it's free reign. That's better than a five second stun.
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661528#Comment_3661528
I 100% agree DbD doesn't need tunneling. However, I would say tunneling is weaker now than it was before basekit BT and post 6.1 OTR but it's much more common and still overly effective. I think DbD needs a major change to mechanics to make tunneling less effective; perks alone aren't enough to deal with it.
I don't think so. Everything OTR/basekit did, DS did too, except it added the full duration of the pick-up animation (Which also opens you up to saves from blinds or pallets), then dropped a five second stun. OTR nor basekit do this, and those two are mutually exclusive.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661036#Comment_3661036
It was a discouragement, but I guess BHVR hoped endurance could somehow work better. And it would have if it stacked like it did in PTB (but killers complained about that).
To be fair, the bodyblock stuff that people have now invented as a problem with pre-6.1 DS was a legitimate issue with Endurance stacking, so it's fair that it got removed.
But it's still BHVR trying to reinvent the wheel, ending up with an exploding hexagon and going 'that'll do'. Why they haven't reverted some of the dumbest nerfs by now is anyone's guess.
(But they did revert the one good nerf on Ruin for the double whammy of failure)
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@Huge_Bush said:
Removing all risk from being removed from the match at any point in time would kill the game. It would get stale very quickly.
Dbd at its core is an elimination game. It’s designed to be frustrating in order to make the wins feel great and get your brain addicted to the endorphins that are released from that emotion. Without the struggle, things wouldn’t feel as good and we’d likely quit sooner than later.
Asking to remove the killers agency and to punish them for making the best choice (usually) is asking for a different game that isn’t Dbd.
DBD doesn't need tunnelling. It did better back when tunnelling was weaker.
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@xEa said:
No Mither is objectivly speaking the worst perk in the game.
It's about to be usurped by Weaving Spiders. Same thing, except it takes 120 seconds of sitting in the highest risk area to activate, and then doesn't allow you to get up when downed.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659258#Comment_3659258
Let's be real, any match where this perk gets any value whatsoever is going to be complained about instantly. Even in its current, useless form.
There have already been complaints of 'why do killers have to patrol basement now?'.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659552#Comment_3659552
No one is really at fault. The most efficient way for each side to play is by completing as much of their objective as they can posthaste. It’s a loop with no beginning (cause) or end (solution). Because if you nerf either side to where they’re slower completing the task necessary to achieve their objective, the other side becomes too oppressive. As soon as a trial starts survivors and killers are in a race to the bottom. And nothing has really changed about killer or survivor strategies in that regard. It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers) or knock out at least 2 gens before first hook (for survivors).
It’s always been best practice to turn the match into a 3v1 ASAP (for killers)
I think DS did put a dent in that, back when it was still a thing.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659379#Comment_3659379
Please pay attention to the argument that's being made and don't try to change the meaning of words to suit your argument.
"Fundamental" pertains to the core mechanics of the game, not the perceived and subjective experiences of survivors working together because it suits them better.
If we go by what you've just said, that teamwork is how the game fundamentally has to acknowledge win rates, then you have to by definition consider it a "team win" when one survivor is killed but three escape. A 1K is a 100% win for all four survivors, because they are a team.
That is not true.
If you in particular want to consider it a win even when you die, that is your entirely subjective prerogative. But that is not in any way a viable way of determining winrates.
Okay. That's still not working in favour of your argument though.
Even IF you want to consider wins only on the individual basis (And if you want to disregard MMR: There is nothing in the game that actually denotes a 'win', including surviving), your winrate is still going to absolutely tank without help from the other survivors, and/or skyrocket WITH their help.
The core mechanics of the game are built around the survivors working together. That's why the game is fundamentally a team game.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659327#Comment_3659327
And it's not. This is like talking to a brick wall.
Survivors are four individuals, playing within the same shared environment.
They win or lose as individuals, not as a team. They can help each other out of altruism, they can further a shared objective (which is not their only option) but they are ultimately out for themselves.
Therefore it is not a team game at it's most fundamental level.
Teamwork is an emergent phenomenon, a potential stategy, not a core requisite. This is what "fundamental" means.
I cannot make this any simpler.
I did not say this is not a team game "at all". It IS a team game; if you want to optimise your chances of escape, if you want to optimise your score, if you are playing with friends and you're invested in their success. But that is not "the fundamental level", as it pertains to kill/win rates.
Again, this is the distinction between 'fundamental' and 'possible'.
You've simply opted for one arbitrary factor that you declare to be the win condition, which is an extremely reductive position that annihilates all context.
If you ask ANYONE ELSE, they will tell you that, fundamentally, the survivors have to work together. The game simply doesn't work without that. Just because you CAN doesn't mean that it's a FUNDAMENTAL part of the game.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659323#Comment_3659323
None of that has anything to do with what I said. You're creating strawman arguments.
Answer my questions first.
Survivors win or lose as individuals. Yes or no?
None of that has anything to do with what I said. You're creating strawman arguments.
To quote:
It's not a team game at it's fundamental level.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659312#Comment_3659312
I was pointing that you can open the exists as a sole survivor. Is this not true?
Survivors win or lose individually, not as a team.
If you queue up as a solo survivor, and get get killed. It doesn't matter if the other survivors escape. You lost.
Is this false?
If I get tunneled out at 5 gens, but the other three manage to get out. Do I have to accept that I actually "won as a team"?
Was the game fundamentally built to have the survivors not do gens, not heal one another, not unhook one another, and just fish for hatch/EGC gates?
Yes or no?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659303#Comment_3659303
By which you mean that you can absolutely win, outside of a hatch play, as a solo survivor, without any actual teammates being present in the game.
Thanks for telling me exactly what I meant, despite me never saying it. That is where you moved the goalposts.
No, it's where you weren't paying attention to what was being said.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659290#Comment_3659290
Read back again. Is teamwork essential, or is it an option? Each individual survivor is playing for their own escape, with the option to work together to potentially improve those odds.
You moved the goalposts when you tried to imply I was claiming that the game as a single 1v1 was an even match.
And yes, it is a team game. You can’t escape without the help of your teammates no matter how well or selfishly you play. You are reliant on your teammates to either do gens or take agro, if they fail to do either, you will quite literally never “win” by MMRs definition. Sure, you can get hatch but that’s a draw according to MMR, you’ll never win in this regard by yourself.
This is what was stated.
You responded with
You absolutely can. You can easily open the exits and escape without your teammates. If you can't imagine how this is possible you can't be a very experienced survivor.
By which you mean that you can absolutely win, outside of a hatch play, as a solo survivor, without any actual teammates being present in the game.
This is all in response to your claim that
It's not a team game at it's fundamental level.
Counterpoint: It absolutely and obviously is. It is designed from the ground up with the intent of having survivors work together.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659282#Comment_3659282
They still exist yes, we're talking about teamwork. Four individual survivors playing selfishly and not as a team can, per survivor, still escape. Don't move the goalposts.
I don't think I'm the one moving the goalposts, because you went from 'fundamental level' to 'it is technically possible'.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659275#Comment_3659275
You can open the exits after the hatch is closed. Or you can leave your teammates to die after the gens are done, by them. You can hide in a corner and never help them out, and escape through an exit.
There are even perks to help this play style specifically.
Or you can leave your teammates to die after the gens are done, by them
In other words: When they help you.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659265#Comment_3659265
MMR defines win conditions and adjusts accordingly.
Not it does not. This is the reason why MMR is hidden. It is not a win condition and was never intended to be. The results screen is your win condition, your emblems, your score, your entities judgement. MMR has been a plague of misinformation since it's inception.
You can’t escape without the help of your teammates no matter how well or selfishly you play.
You absolutely can. You can easily open the exits and escape without your teammates. If you can't imagine how this is possible you can't be a very experienced survivor.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659223#Comment_3659223
Thanks for bringing this up. This is yet another of the myriad of factors that makes the win condition detached from the kill rate.
1Ks and 4Ks are the most common results for nearly every killer. Yet a 1K is still definitively a loss for the killer.
If you take two games, one 1K, one 4K, you have an even 50% win rate for the killer. Yet you have a 62.5% kill rate. 5 in 8 survivors have been killed.
With 1Ks being more common than 0Ks, and 4Ks being more common than 3Ks, end all are more common than 2Ks, even with a definitively 50% win rate, if you had 1000 definitive losses with 1000 definitive wins, even if you count a 2K as a draw, you still have a kill rate higher than 50%, because the more common 1Ks and 4Ks skew the kill rates towards than 62.5%.
I know it seems simple to think that "fair" must mean 50/50, that it's even, so it must be right. I used to think this too. But it is Not. That. Simple. It is a fallacy. The game is asymmetric and there are far too many nuances and variances that prevent attempts at equalising the two sides of that asymmetry.
You absolutely can. You can easily open the exits and escape without your teammates. If you can't imagine how this is possible you can't be a very experienced survivor.
You are not legitimately suggesting that if you loaded into a trial, on your own, you could do all five generators and leave through the gates.
Alone.
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It isn't, but any perk with a 120 second wind-up that ends up being overall 'useful' must have an effect powerful enough to net complaints from the killer community. And that's gonna get it nerfed immediately.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659067#Comment_3659067
Ahhhhhh Alr
thanks for letting me know that :D
Well, I can't confirm it for sure, but I did notice this had been reported in the bug feedback section and the official response is that it was forwarded to the dev team, I don't know anything beyond that. I -would- assume that it's a bug, since nothing was reported in regards to this perk changing, and I can't imagine it's gonna cop a double nerf.
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Was reported and picked up as a bug, I think. Would need to check whether it's actually in play, or just in the description.
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objectively less-balanced state
Not objectively. Subjectively.
It's always been subjectively. Objectively, the game's currently not balanced or even close to it. The absolute top best survivors stacked in a 4-man hit a 48% winrate versus killers averaging to 50% winrate. The rest of the survivors lag behind killers by a full 10 percentage points. (Even more at high MMR)
@Seraphor said:
Something I find interesting about this whole debate is I've seen many killer mains justify the 60% kill rate and say it's good, but not a single survivor main who says it's good.
Have you tried asking people who play both roles and aren't so biased?
The idea that 50/50 would be balanced is a fallacy. This is an asymmetrical game, with an odd number of players in each game, with different win conditions for each side.
50% is the ideal kill rate for survivors, but the ideal kill rate for killers is about 62.5% (halfway between a 2K and a 3K on average). This is partly why neither side is ever happy with the state of the game. There is a 12.5% overlap where neither side is content. The fairest middle ground, a kill rate at any point between 50% and 62.5%, is less than the ideal spot for each respective role.
It's also why survivor mains and killer mains disagree on where the kill rate should be. Survivors want 50%, killers want more than 60%.
50% is the ideal kill rate for survivors, but the ideal kill rate for killers is about 62.5% (halfway between a 2K and a 3K on average).
This is incorrect, and people need to stop parroting this misunderstanding. You're talking about the outcome of the average game, NOT the average win-rate. Killrates and winrates are not related in that way, as proven by Nightlight and trying to make a prediction for the average winrate on any killrate below 50%.
Winrates for killers have been considerably higher than this model predicts.
The 60% figure was, AFAIK, never chosen for balance, but for thematic purposes.
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One idea I'd want to try out is to make them work asymmetrically.
Survivor offerings decrease the likelihood of a map, killer offerings increase the likelihood of a map.
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You're missing Adam with Autodidact.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654738#Comment_3654738
The dash will not make a difference. It will still be beaten by predropping and long loops. Nerfs to her base power are far more impactful then those irrelevant changes.
The dash will not make a difference.
It will make more of a difference than the increased timer.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654243#Comment_3654243
So again, you’re saying that one of the weakest killers in the game deserves a nerf?
She's not getting a nerf, she's getting an overall buff.
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@Firellius said:
Survivor perks:
1) While in the dying state, your repair speed is increased by 10% (Will be nerfed to 3% after PTB)
2) After getting hooked three times, reduces your grunts of pain by 50% for the remainder of the trial.
3) During EGC, you get 5% more skillchecks. Your aura is revealed to the killer.
TURNS OUT I HAVE MUCH TO ######### LEARN
I WILL HONE MY CRAFT AND COME BACK EVEN WORSE NEXT CHAPTER
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@Marc_go_solo said:
It's frustrating to hear all this talk of "trash perks" and similar soundbites, because the reason most people die in-game has much more to do with skill than perks. I'd feel far safer with a pro on the team running nothing but This Is Not Happening than the average player using meta builds. Many perks can be useful, and of course some are better than others, but if the player isn't that good no amount of meta perk will make them much better.
Anyway, back to the main point: whilst I am not entirely in agreeance about what Perks are good or not, the focus has been mainly on Killers in general. It has felt unbalanced, like only one side really has something of value to look forward to. I would probably prefer to see patches mix Survivor and Killer adjustments within them, rather than heavily leaning to one side or the other.
This just keeps both sides looking forward to (or at least raise discussions) on either role's new changes.
It's frustrating to hear all this talk of "trash perks" and similar soundbites, because the reason most people die in-game has much more to do with skill than perks.
It's not so much to do with 'strong' perks as in 'this perk will carry me to a win'.
Deadline is actually a pretty good, recent example of what the issue is with survivor perk design. Currently, Deadline gives you 10% more skillchecks, but only while you're injured, and it makes all skillchecks harder.
If Deadline just gave 10% more skillchecks, it'd be an okay perk. Nothing to blow your socks off, it might get you a little extra progress if you can consistently hit those checks. Could be a kinda fun pick, especially with Autodidact.
If Deadline gave 10% more skillchecks, but made those skillchecks harder, it'd be a rather niche perk. Really hard to use, but it could be rewarding. Would probably still work well with Autodidact.
If Deadline gave 10% more skillchecks, but only while injured, it'd be a kinda bad perk. Requiring injury for such a mediocre effect is a rather large ask.
But Deadline gives 10% more skillchecks, only while injured AND it makes ALL skillchecks harder. Now it's just plain bad and not worth picking up.
Survivors don't need 'strong' perks that'll just win the game for you, but the perks need to have a meaningful impact on the gameplay, not get snowed in with drawbacks. That's how Potential Energy became a dud, too.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653885#Comment_3653885
Survivors didn’t need anymore handholding changes.
Says the person having an absolute meltdown over being somewhat less likely to RNG into freebie kills.
Survivors aren't getting handholding with this change. Pig is losing hers.
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Survivor perks:
1) While in the dying state, your repair speed is increased by 10% (Will be nerfed to 3% after PTB)
2) After getting hooked three times, reduces your grunts of pain by 50% for the remainder of the trial.
3) During EGC, you get 5% more skillchecks. Your aura is revealed to the killer.
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6.1 was a disaster. The nerf to anti-tunnel is something that the game just hasn't recovered from, and it was subsequently pushed into sweatier and sweatier territories. Killer issues get happily addressed, but every time the survivors ask for something, it has to be trimmed down so excessively that it ultimately accomplishes nothing. Seeing other survivors' loadouts? 'Probably in a couple of years'.
6.1 also put the final nail in the coffin for hex perks with Ruin getting deleted alongside DS, so now totems are effectively non-existent as a game mechanism. Gameplay just keeps getting flatter and flatter.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653674#Comment_3653674
So she needed a nerf? Ok lol
She needed a design pass. Random RBT kills are de facto the worst part of her kit in terms of design. This change alleviates that, while offsetting it with buffs to her ambush.
Honestly, the RBTs should work entirely differently to better focus them on their purpose, but that's not what a mid-chapter is for.