Firellius
Firellius
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
Me and my friends decided to get some value out of this perk. One of will run Object and keep the killer busy, while the rest of us will go to the salt circle and put the affect on all generators, -10% progress is not much but is pretty helpful.
Without a gen rush build or toolboxes it did save us a good amount of time as we did stay together doing generators.
How the perk could be better in general? The broken status needs to be removed after being hooked instead of it being applied for the entire match afterwards, it being permanent is too harsh, also I’d like the generator buff to be 15% instead of 10%, a small but helpful quality of life change for the perk.
Without a gen rush build or toolboxes it did save us a good amount of time as we did stay together doing generators.
I suppose if you play very inefficiently, the perk is slightly more effective, that's true.
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You don't get BP for going AFK.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676581#Comment_3676581
I think the idea is that if a team rushes there off the start efficiency isn't an issue. We talk about efficiency because its survivors ability to do gens vs killer ability to get hooks. But if all the survivors are in the basement and the killer is just running around searching for a survivor with no chases happening efficiency becomes irrelevant (e.g. it doesn't matter how slowly you progress your objective if the other side doesn't progress their objective at all). Hypothetically the survivors could do a non-regressable 10% off every gen before the killer ever did anything meaningful.
Of course, its still a garbage perk, because in the above you now risk the whole team getting caught in the basement + even if you pull it off you now have a survivor permanently broken.
Not to mention the head start you give to set-up killers like Hag and Trapper.
But also, every added survivor only progresses the invocation at half speed, unless you want to sacrifice more perk slots to it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676423#Comment_3676423
no way was the mechanic designed for killers. killer did not ask for another secondary objective of checking basement.
The mechanic assumes two functionalities which is why it is currently not strong.
1) It assumes multiple survivors having different invocation perks equipped. This is evident by the fact that having an invocation perk equipped increases speed from 50%->100%.
2) It assumes that survivors duo an invocation to trigger it. 60 second to channel invocation is considerably faster then 120 seconds.
The perk is pretty reliable to trigger in team setting but there is currently no real reason why you would want to only trigger 1 invocation perk. In practice, when survivor acquire 4-5 different invocation perks and everyone equips them, this mechanic will prove to be far more rewarding. right now it is just low reward for high time sink.
That's the thing though: you don't have to check the basement at all. If this perk fires, the killer benefits more. One survivor has done nothing for two minutes, and now they are permanently injured. The resulting -10 charges are simply not a threat after two minutes of 1v3.
Plus, any kind of scream perk can add multiple seconds to the invocation time by pure accident.
Additionally, I highly doubt that multiple survivors having different invocations equipped will allow multiple effects to proc off the same invocation. And that speed increase is a little worse than meaningless: Two survivors working on an incantation is the exact same level of slowdown in the killer's favour. It just takes up an extra perk slot, so it's a little better for the killer still.
The only way this could possibly ever turn good for the survivors is if one survivor could stack and multi-proc multiple different invocations, but I can tell you now: that -will- get nerfed from PTB to live.
Because they're designing this for the killers, not the survivors. The balance of this perk is way, waaaay too far off for it to be anything else.
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@Shuma said:
If you look at nightlight.gg, I would say the more concerning stat is how small the chance for a draw is compared to how massive a 4k is and to a lesser degree a 4 man escape.
4ks and 4es are the least fun outcome, while 2ks are probably the most fun outcomes because both sides are pretty equally matched and both sides have skill expression.
Sadly, the game is intrinsically inclined away from 2Ks, so chasing that is a pretty futile effort.
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676639#Comment_3676639
This should not come as a surprised. The same applies when a killer uses pain res and the blocked gen does not regress at all. This is why it's not wise to have pain res and perks like deadlock in your build. You will waste a token if pain res hit a deadlocked gen because it will not lose 25%. This also happens with repressed alliance which I've seen some survivors use to counter pain res. It will not regress the highest progressed gen at all.
Except this isn't progression or regression, as @zarr said. It's new territory.
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@The_Krapper said:
Lmao so not only are people wasting 2 whole minutes in the basement but then to top it off several killer perks can completely negate the effect and make it where you may as well just have been afk, top tier development there let me tell you it really makes me want to spend my money 🙄
but then to top it off several killer perks can completely negate the effect and make it where you may as well just have been afk
No no no
Being AFK would've been better. At least you wouldn't be perma-broken.
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@Katzengott said:
Once finished, it takes 10% charges of ALL gens, no matter if they're blocked or not. So the most efficient this perk can get is using it right at the start of the game with a no-heal build. But do it not alone as it takes 120 seconds, with teammates joining the ritual it goes much quicker with the same outcome, even quicker if someone else has the perk. You want these -10% charges ASAP on ALL gens, not just on 1 or 2 gens at the end. But be aware that the perk is a potential solo-queue killer. I just used it for her Adept and was kinda lucky getting it in the 5th trial. Sorry to my solo mates. Never gonna use it again, i promise.
I like unique and alternative perk ideas, but like Potential Energy using this solo isn't really worth the risk, sadly.
Cooperating on the invocation makes it even less efficient. Do NOT have more than one person on it.
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All perks that are actively detrimental to the wielder are survivor perks.
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I think it's fair to say that the perk was designed for killers, not survivors. I think this is also going to be a trend going forward, where survivor perks will mostly lean towards being detrimental, rather than beneficial. I don't think this perk is going to work, or is going to be reworked into a functional form, and I also don't think that the concept of invocations is going to work with the killer-focused perspective.
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@NaveR said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674553#Comment_3674553
Oh yeah, bm-ing and calling names in post-match lobbies against an obviously nice playstyle with gradual 8-hooking before even trying to kill anyone are absolutely and utterly nonexistent. "Do your gens, be respectful and don't be a twat when leaving the trial" doesn't seem like something a lot of survivors even consider following, taking a nice playstyle for the killer's weakness. Do you really think I didn't notice the injured survivor going the other way, but took your oh so smart flashlight/fast vault bait? Nope, I chose letting that person have some more fun and play for longer. If there's only one injured survivor next to me or running into me, then yeah, I'm taking it, since it's a misplay on the survivors' side and I don't normally play killers able to go across the map within seconds to just leave the dude.
Same goes for bully squads with tons of flashlights who locker stun the killer not for the sake of a save or slowing the killer down in a chase (the latter's kinda mean, but not unacceptable), but for the sake of making the killer feel miserable and feeling better at their expense. Totally not something happening in this game.
So yeah, a lot of players don't really let me put a lot of faith in this community, whether it be unmotivated bm-ing or bullying of different sorts, or unmotivated tunneling. I had like 6 matches yesterday, against one absolutely obviously cheating huntress, two more killers were pretty suspicious, and overall all killers except for the cheater tunneled right away. Effective? Yeah, if you only want to score 4ks. Fun? Hell no.
Oh yeah, bm-ing and calling names in post-match lobbies against an obviously nice playstyle with gradual 8-hooking before even trying to kill anyone are absolutely and utterly nonexistent.
The post I was responding to:
Most survivors don’t care if the strategies they do are unfun for killers, so why should killer care if the strategies they do are unfun for survivors?
Same goes for bully squads with tons of flashlights who locker stun the killer not for the sake of a save or slowing the killer down in a chase (the latter's kinda mean, but not unacceptable), but for the sake of making the killer feel miserable and feeling better at their expense. Totally not something happening in this game.
And how many complaints are there about bully squads, in comparison to the complaints about 'gens going too fast'?
Killers don't complain about bully squads, they complain about Sally Soloqueue not holding on to the gen until the killer gets a free hit, or Simon Sub10hours working on a gen with no perks, items or add-ons to speed it up.
If killers complained about bully squads as much as they did 'gen tunnelling', we'd have BHVR working on some kind of fix for it right now, with how attentive they've been to killer complaints lately. But for some reason, bully squads fly under the radar until it's time to 'but muh bully squads' on a thread complaining about tunnelling.
Which is extra aggravating because bully squads do actually need to get addressed.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674546#Comment_3674546
people complain all the gosh-darn time about survivor strategies they dislike on the forum. in fact, in my experience complaints about specific survivor play styles are more likely to garner positive attention than complaints about killer play styles. There is absolutely no double standard here
IMO: not really. Killer complaints aren't usually about strategies or tactics, but more about survivors running away or completing gens.
There's startlingly few complaints about bully squads, but that might be because it's a topic with no meaningful discourse because pretty much everyone agrees that it's garbage.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674237#Comment_3674237
Tunneling at 5 gens is perfectly acceptable.
Most survivors don’t care if the strategies they do are unfun for killers, so why should killer care if the strategies they do are unfun for survivors?
Oh, don't start!
Tunnelling and camping have been argued against on the basis of them wrecking the gameplay for years.
The only strategy killers complain about is survivors getting to survive.
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I'd suggest they make the repair penalty kick in when the Mangled effect goes away. It'd be a neat little buff for it.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671845#Comment_3671845
block killer's path -> run after you make sure the other person made enough distance -> get in a locker.
what does the killer do here?
How do you run off to get into a locker when you're downed?
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671814#Comment_3671814
Why not? Why is tunneling so demonized. It’s a valid strategy and survivors already got spoon fed back to back basekit mechanics to limit a killer’s choices and free will. Destigmatize tunneling.
Then tunnel, if it's so dear to you.
Just don't complain that if you do literally everything wrong in regards to DS, DS is going to punish you for it.
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DS is one of the most killer-controlled perks in the game. You, and you alone, determine whether it has value or not. Don't want it to work? Don't tunnel. Done.
But that's something you have trouble with, it seems, considering your thread on OTR.
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Autodidact: with inconsistency of skill checks, and the perk building a deficit until its fifth check, this perk is more likely to slow you down than it is to help you.
Potential Energy: -30% repair speed, and you lose all charges if you lose a health state, all to ferry a bit of progress in. Even in its intended use case, I see this as a killer perk.
Weaving Spiders: 120 seconds AFK, then a worse version of No Mither, just for ten charges. Nope.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671323#Comment_3671323
BHVR is super scared of releasing good survivor perks. Weaving Spider is a great example. It could have a good effect, but the condition is so over the top, nobody will successfully use that one.
IMO, better example is Deadline. 10% more skillchecks would probably have been fine without any drawbacks. It would've been okay-ish if it just had the 'harder skillchecks' condition. It would've been kinda bad with the 'only when injured' condition. But it has both, for some reason, utterly burying it.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671315#Comment_3671315
Explain please? In this picture, Slinger has almost exactly 2K average. So does any other killer with 50% we have seen.
I know. I am agreeing with you.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671304#Comment_3671304
Whats wrong about it? Its a fact that NL is close to reality stats, but a few percentages lower on killrates. When NL has 55% killrate on average it is usually between 58 and 60.
No, what you are saying isn't wrong. What you were responding to (Raconteurminator's post) is wrong.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671289#Comment_3671289
Nightlight is not very accurate. Sorry.
Okay, but what @xEa is responding to is just flat wrong. Nightlight being inaccurate makes zero difference.
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It's still a bad design, but at least it's not as bad as it used to be.
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@Bafugaboo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3671164#Comment_3671164
True wait no 14 games in a row gen rush as I am friendly killer. So yes you do know and thus why killers are tunneling
Genrushing, or just doing gens?
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670956#Comment_3670956
I recall the first post you responded to was one of me talking about the kill rate. You addressed my "interpretation" of the 60% intended kill rate, went on to bring Nightlight into it, made a "something is better than nothing" argument as to why we should use those numbers, and now we're here.
My original point hasn't changed, my supplementary points are consistent. This conversation is where it is because this is where you brought it. If you're confused by this, I can't help you. Though I will say, you are welcome to discontinue it at any time.
You weren't talking about kill rate, you were talking about balance, and using the kill rate to do it. And I specifically talked about balance and the lack of info you can draw from the kill rate.
Whether you trust Nightlight or not, provably, kill rate is a really bad metric for balance.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670808#Comment_3670808
60% is the intended kill rate, the intended average. That, right there, is your anchor point. Behaviour says they want to balance around that number, and from that number we can see what Killers are meeting that average, exceeding that average or falling below that average. By addressing the issues that lead a particular Killer away from that lighthouse figure, the average is formed within an acceptable margin around 60%.
Realistically, we don't even need to know the numbers, because we're not balancing the game. Behaviour makes changes, we give feedback, that feedback is used to bring the game in line with their chosen balance point. We don't need the numbers, and arguing balance changes based upon a third-party website that is, yes, at times wildly inaccurate (not just my opinion here), won't help half as much as people think it will.
That is nothing to do with what you originally said. I know BHVR puts that 60% out as the benchmark, but that's not what you were originally talking about.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670710#Comment_3670710
Absolutely nothing is better than something that A) is a relatively small sample size that relies heavily on the honesty of the user and B) Has been shown to be widely inaccurate. Like I said, it's a weather vane; not something to rely on for anything other than a general sense of which way the wind is blowing.
If you think something being unreliable isn't a meaningful fault, I don't know what to tell you. Unreliable statistics are not conducive to proving a point, and they don't suddenly become reliable or worth using because of the absence of more reliable ones. "Here's some knowingly inaccurate data. I win unless you offer your own data!" I mean, really. The only data that would mean anything here is Behaviour's own data, and as you said, they don't track it. Faulty data leads to faulty conclusions, so I feel it would be better to exclude said faulty data.
Continuing to insist on flying blind because the Nightlight data might be inaccurate just creates the same position we've been in for years. Killer anec-data being held in the highest regard.
I would also like to remind you that while I am going off data that you declare 'unreliable', you, yourself, are advocating for going off literally -no- data. How is that supposed to give any grounds for appropriate balancing? You claim that it would be absurd to balance around less likely outcomes, but you have no data to determine what actually is the least likely outcome. So what do, then?
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669624#Comment_3669624
So you have no numbers, then, outside of a third-party app that varies, sometimes wildly, in accuracy.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669636#Comment_3669636
There are four people on the Survivor side, each worth 25%. In no single match can a Killer achieve a 60% kill rate; it's either 50% or 75%. A 60% kill rate means that the average kills, over multiple matches, will be 2, with the occasional 3 or higher. A 50% kill rate, on average, will produce less than 2 kills. 60% is balanced in this context. So again, in this context, you have no understanding of balance.
So you have no numbers, then, outside of a third-party app that varies, sometimes wildly, in accuracy.
Kind of annoying that this needs to be said, but...
It's something
Versus
Absolutely nothing.
You can bicker about how reliable Nightlight is, but it does compile a dataset of actual matches. Unless you have some meaningful fault to point out, you don't really have a leg to stand on, and you don't offer your own data.
Besides, go over your own experience. Does Nightlight's data in regards to the frequency of 2Ks seem all that out-of-the-ordinary?
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@Commander_Nefarious said:
i have a 50 - 60 second chase and 2 gens pop. 3 gens left with 1 hook. if i play nice its clearly a foolish choice, so in order to win i have totunnel, and survivors act like i committed this great sin, killer is literally against time. and if i chase someone else they flashlight rescue them,obviously the survivors feel great on pulling off a save but the killer is way behind schedule and becomes frustrated for being robbed. so why cant survivors ingrain that into their heads?
they say the tunneled survivor doesnt play, what does that mean? theyre running from the killer and clearly playing.as opposed to what? doing a gen? the generators need a rework because holding m2 is also boring, id say you have to look for parts scattered around the map in order to repair the gens such as gears , gasoline, etc, and reduce the time for gens, that would at least gives killers more time and spot survivors more often. but streamers shouldnt publicly shame killer players for tunneling, because even they do it too.
i have a 50 - 60 second chase and 2 gens pop. 3 gens left with 1 hook.
Okay. And?
Where did the match end up?
Killers need to stop obsessing over the first, second and even third gen. Loads of games rush into the first three gens and then get completely stuck with the second-to-last or final gen. The killer has a weak start. Survivors fall off once the ball gets rolling. The speed of gens during your first chase is not indicative of the game's pacing after the first hook, those two are like night and day.
But unless you stop tunnelling, you'll never figure out how much you actually really 'need' tunnelling.
they say the tunneled survivor doesnt play, what does that mean? theyre running from the killer and clearly playing.as opposed to what?
Survivors have four emblems: Lightbringer, Unbroken, Benevolent and Evader. Unbroken is pretty much only awarded for winning the game, so that one is irrelevant, but Benevolent and Lightbringer are two aspects of survivor gameplay that a tunnelled survivor will not have any chance to engage in. Unlike killers, survivors have a well developed gameplay loop, where the intent is for survivors to cycle from sitting on gens, to helping allies, to taking chases. Tunnelling deletes this gameplay loop and replaces it for everyone with only one of the three components.
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@krazy_ivan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669472#Comment_3669472
The point is simple, too many players will blame anything else except themselves for their bad performance, or will say they're being "gaslit" by being shown why they need to improve, saying this only proves my point.
At high MMR ranges there are many other problems, main of which is survivors leaning too heavily on bully tactics, sabo-reliant builds and flashlight saves because high-time survivors find doing gens "boring" and want to aggravate the killer instead, many times to the detriment of the team, hence why escape rate is paradoxically low at high MMRs. My post does not focus on these tactics but rather on the mid-range MMR players who, as I highlighted on my post, refuse to use perks necessary to fill in the gaps of their gameplay or take a few minutes to watch tutorials on looping, finding gens, etc. Everything I pointed out cuts right to the chase of how mid-range survivors are letting their team and themselves down.
The 3-gen problem, lack of team coordination, and tunneling are issues that have received solutions, and while they're not perfect, they go a long way to mitigate the problems. But if a survivor refuses to use other tools to leverage in-game aids and instead continues to make excuses, they will find themselves 3-genned and tunneled over and over again. Saying that 3-gen is a knight and skull merchant exclusive problem, Perk use is only a band-aid, Being tunneled out is not a team but a killer problem, and legitimate critiques of survivors gaslights them into thinking they are 10-hour blendettes is being disingenuous.
The point is simple, too many players will blame anything else except themselves for their bad performance, or will say they're being "gaslit" by being shown why they need to improve, saying this only proves my point.
Oh, you think this applies to me, do you? You think I don't know about which gens should be targeted early on to avoid 3-gens, and that I will sit in a corner, hiding, when everyone else is on death hook?
Ironically, I think you're kind of proving -my- point: You assume that whoever says something you do not agree with must not understand the game's barely-above-basics principles.
At high MMR ranges there are many other problems, main of which is survivors leaning too heavily on bully tactics, sabo-reliant builds and flashlight saves because high-time survivors find doing gens "boring" and want to aggravate the killer instead, many times to the detriment of the team, hence why escape rate is paradoxically low at high MMRs.
That low escape rate at high MMR is only for the solo players; The ones considerably less likely to attempt to use tactics that require heavy coordination.
It's honestly a bit insulting that you assume high MMR solo players are all flopping bully stunts, as opposed to considering the possibility that high MMR killers are just good at what they do.
My post does not focus on these tactics but rather on the mid-range MMR players who, as I highlighted on my post, refuse to use perks necessary to fill in the gaps of their gameplay or take a few minutes to watch tutorials on looping, finding gens, etc. Everything I pointed out cuts right to the chase of how mid-range survivors are letting their team and themselves down.
And, barring the band-aid perk stuff that I already addressed: Where are these players? Where are these players that are loudly complaining on the forums about the game, and yet do not know how to locate gens?
Who are you targeting this at?
The 3-gen problem, lack of team coordination, and tunneling are issues that have received solutions, and while they're not perfect, they go a long way to mitigate the problems.
The 3-gen one did. Tunnelling did not. Tunnelling, in fact, got one of its countermeasures removed, and we're all waiting on it to be reinstated. And no, taking protection hits is not going to fix the issue. I should know: I once took three protection hits in the same chase, and the killer still wouldn't stop tunnelling.
Because I think this is also something that you do not understand about the main gripe with tunnelling: It's not about its ability to win games, it's about the fact that three survivors are left doing M1-simulator, and the other is going to get kicked out of the trial with sub-10K BP and a depip. It is ruinous for gameplay. People want stronger countermeasures because torpedoing its winrate is going to be the only way you can get people to stop doing it.
Which worked prior to 6.1 with DS being a legitimate deterrent, but then it got scrapped.
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@krazy_ivan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669507#Comment_3669507
I disagree, it's constructive to criticize the team players who need improvement, not the game they chose to play. This is my whole point, gamers who refuse to improve but will instead blame game mechanics, mmr etc. At no point did I point my finger at so called noobs but instead players that should know better and need to be better.
In other words, it's a passive-aggressive vaguetweet.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669769#Comment_3669769
Do you know the structure of ARP map? In this map, it is true that the survivors will have an advantage if they complete gen closer to the center, but if they can only complete the generators in a biased area after that, a 3 gens problem will occur. In fact, all DBD players who have been playing for many years know that they must avoid this as a priority.
Therefore, the Trapper, who has low mobility and wants to gain an advantage by expanding the trap area, will actively protect one side of the map as his home. Of course, the survivors understand this, so they either capture the area that the Trapper wants to protect first, or they all attack the Trapper's promenade in waves after conquering all the other areas.
Again, it doesn't matter. The point is that doing gens 'as fast as possible' and doing gens securely are mutually exclusive.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669698#Comment_3669698
If you complete each 2gen on both ends, there will be 1gen on both ends. One survivor is in charge of a gen and another is in charge of the opposite gen, the killer cannot sabotage both at the same time. In ARP, the theory is that survivors aim for this chance of winning. This is a classic strategy that everyone has known since long before the map was reworked.
Aiming for the middle gen is only done when the killer is chasing a single survivor for a long time to avoid completing gens at both ends. If they attempt is discovered and you are chased by the killer, if you have completed many generators in one direction, run there, otherwise stay in the center. Every need to deal with it dynamically depending on the completed generator and the killer's aim. Once I can do this, they can graduate as a beginner.
Doesn't change anything though. If you want to avoid getting 3-genned, you will want to distribute your gen pressure which means you can't do it as fast as possible.
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I feel pretty confident that this perk is going to tank escape rates for a while after its release, until people give up on it.
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I'm just amazed that Weaving Spiders copped a nerf.
I mean, the permanent charges is good, but making it lose a third of its power to compensate for that when the perk was so deep below balancing standards... I don't think this improves anything but the 'feel' of the perk, which honestly makes me worry that people are going to actually use it now.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669678#Comment_3669678
Are you referring to the central generator in Azharov's Resting Place? If so, I'll give you the correct answer, but he didn't tell you to complete gen there. In the first place, in ARP encourages the completion of generators at both ends without bias. What he's saying is a generalization, and it depends on the situation, so that's why he's telling you to memorize the map.
He's warning you not to try to complete gens that are worthless to the killer, but instead to target gens that the killer doesn't want you to complete. It's determined by the map.
The middle gen in ARP is a key gen that must be completed early if a 3-gen is to be avoided. Otherwise the map gets dramatically reduced in size.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669665#Comment_3669665
"disingenuous to claim that survivors should get gens done as fast as possible" Can you explain why this is the case? Completion of gen is the logic of this game, and everyone should be aware of how efficient and necessary it is to speed up the process. If this is not the case, it will only accelerate the death of the survivor. Do not you think so?
Next, I'm talking about playing against Dredge, but even if he catches a survivor in the locker, it's just a matter of survivors gen progressing towards completion. Only beginners would lose their balance due to an accident of this magnitude.
Can you explain why this is the case?
Read the entire sentence, not just the first half.
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@Mandy said:
These are not patch notes, this is the Dev Update from PTB - Live, it's in the Knowledge Base on this forum: Developer Update | All Things Wicked PTB - BHVR
Ahh, I see. Thank you kindly.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669650#Comment_3669650
In other words, you are claiming that what he wrote is reasonable and that there are no people here who are being targeted?
In that case, I would simply reply that if I had done what he proposed, there would be no such thing as a 5 gen 1 kill. Because those who are able to follow his theory will never do so. That can't happen unless you choose not to do what he says.
In other words, you are claiming that what he wrote is reasonable and that there are no people here who are being targeted?
That's not what I'm saying at all. That's not what the OP's intent is, either. OP's intent appears to be to devalue the complaints of survivors on these forums by claiming that they're not just low skill, but dramatically low skill.
In that case, I would simply reply that if I had done what he proposed, there would be no such thing as a 5 gen 1 kill. Because those who are able to follow his theory will never do so. That can't happen unless you choose not to do what he says.
That depends entirely on the game. There can be situations in which the survivors do everything right and it still goes that way. For one, it's disingenuous to claim that survivors should get gens done as fast as possible, while the OP specifically points out that gens should also be done cleverly. Trying to do that extremely crucial mid-field gen on Azharov's Resting Place is always going to be significantly slower and riskier than just bumrushing one of the edge gens.
I myself had a game once where I scored the first hook on Dredge in under 30 seconds because one of the survivors tried to lock a locker I was shifting towards. They weren't doing anything wrong.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669625#Comment_3669625
In other words, you're just refusing to talk to people who are giving you specific strategies, citing the survivor's survival rate regardless, right?
If not, please point out what is wrong with the strategy he wrote.
What's wrong with the strategy he wrote is that it is irrelevant.
If this thread had been titled 'Tips for new survivors', or 'how to climb out of low MMR', that would've been fine. But it's not, is it? The people he's talking about are not on these forums, reading this thread. Not to mention that the TLDR tries to state that survivor complaints come from the people he describes, and they just very much don't.
That 5 hour blendette who rushed a corner gen and then sat in the basement locker for the rest of the match is not on these forums complaining about tunnelling. So why she's being brought up when people try to talk about how awful tunnelling is for gameplay is beyond me.
This thread asks nothing and offers nothing that's new to anyone here.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669603#Comment_3669603
That doesn't address the purpose of this thread. There are specific things to do, so is it really what you need to do? Please state.
If you think there is something written that we should not do, please provide another concrete example of what we should do. That's what this thread is asking for.
This thread is not asking for anything. There's no question mark.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669583#Comment_3669583
Nightlight is a weather vane at best, it gives a vague sense of which way the wind is blowing. It's useful, but it's not for arguing exact numbers, especially not fractions of a percent. What does Behaviour's own numbers say?
They don't track winrate, so it's Nightlight or nothing.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669556#Comment_3669556
It's not an interpretation. It's basic mathematics applied to observable reality. You balance around the average match because it would be asinine and counterproductive to balance around less likely outcomes. Calling something meaningless and dismissing it doesn't make it meaningless, nor does it suddenly become untrue. It just means you lack an argument and genuinely think hand-waving it away counts as one.
You balance around the average match because it would be asinine and counterproductive to balance around less likely outcomes.
This is where you miss the mark though: that 2K that you point out? That IS the least likely outcome. For almost all killers. I updated the post while you were quoting this one to add the statistical details, but there's only five killers for whom a 2K is NOT the least likely outcome.
The relationship between kill rate and win rate is extremely weird. At one point Nightlight was even showing a very slightly higher win rate for a very slightly lower kill rate killer.
As a quick illustration of how loosely kill and win rates are correlated: What would happen to the both of them if the hatch were to be removed?
EDIT: Double-checked again: The all-killer average pits 2K as the least likely outcome, lagging behind 1Ks by a whopping 4.1 percentage points: 17.92% vs 13.82%.
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@xltechno said:
What do people who ignore the purpose of the thread and just spew hate want to do? Almost everyone here never mentions what survivors should do to survive better.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669555#Comment_3669555
If any facing the M1 Killer, the survivor can just run straight away, and if get hit, just run straight further away, which will buy you more than 20 seconds of time. It's shocking to me that I can't even do that.
What do people who ignore the purpose of the thread
All of your posts in this thread have been more verbose versions of 'u bad lol', so I don't think you can point fingers at anyone else.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669501#Comment_3669501
I'm sure it goes hand-in-hand with their logic, like it or not. It makes no sense to have a single survivor have an equal footing with the killer in a 1v4 game. I don't think we need PTB Huntress or Pre-Patch Nurse mind you, but the killer shouldn't be a pushover like it was back before 6.1.0 either. Which is why I say right now, the game is pretty dang balanced all things considered. Needs more work, yes, but I'd rather play this current patch than when I started.
but the killer shouldn't be a pushover like it was back before 6.1.0 either.
I don't think they were back then. But also, this is where the 'feel' of the game begins to meddle with balance, and why I'm sceptical about BHVR ever having said that 60% killrate was for balance purposes.
I'm sure it goes hand-in-hand with their logic, like it or not. It makes no sense to have a single survivor have an equal footing with the killer in a 1v4 game.
But we do have to consider how we want to balance the game in the end. Personally, considering escapes wins and taking 3K+ as wins seems like a good balancing metric, but we're not hitting that. Going by Nightlight's statistics, killers are 'winning' a little under 49%, whereas survivors are 'winning' a little under 45%. That's a pretty substantial difference in killers' favour.
If we were to hunt for this 60% kill rate statistic, the killer's winrate would similarly inflate, and the survivors' winrate would deflate, further increasing the gap, and thus making the game less balanced.
According to Nightlight, the two killers currently the closest to the targeted 60% killrate are Twins (61.38%) and Plague (59.34%). This means survivors have a roughly 40% chance to escape against either of them. However, the 'win' rate for these two killers are 58% and 53% respectively, versus roughly 40% for the survivors. That's not balanced.
@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669494#Comment_3669494
53% is still lower than the intended 60%. 60% kill rate = 2k on average. This tells me you don't understand what fair or balanced means, at least in this context.
60% kill rate = 2k on average.
This interpretation really needs to get chucked out of a window. Kill rate and win rate are very loosely and illogically related. That '2k on average' is utterly meaningless for the purposes of balance as it only considers the average match, and the average match is played by no one.
EDIT: Got curious, checked Nightlight again: There's only five killers for who a 2K is NOT the least likely outcome. Those are Myers (0K is the least likely), Pyramidhead (Both 0K and 1K occur less frequently), the Unknown (Small sample size, but there were equal 1Ks and 0Ks registered), Bubba (0Ks were the least likely) and Nemesis (Less likely to get a 3K than a 2K). For all other killers, 2K was the least likely outcome, often by a pretty solid margin, too.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669494#Comment_3669494
Arguing that 53% was balanced is both completely ignoring the nuance of the amount of killers/each killer's skill ceiling AND the fact that the developers themselves consider 60% balanced for an asym.
I started the game before that patch and it was hell for M1 killers. We also forget that was the time killers could down off hook if the survivors didn't run BT themselves. I also remember being trash at loops and still surviving by holding W and prethrowing pallets because most M1 killers couldn't keep up if gens were plowed through with kitted toolboxes. The game's more balanced these days and everyone has their rose-tinted glasses on too tight.
AND the fact that the developers themselves consider 60% balanced for an asym.
Did they ever say 60% was balanced, or that it was their personal benchmark?
Statistically, going by Nightlight, it's not 'balanced'. I'm pretty sure they said they were aiming for 60% because it feels right for the horror theme.
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@krazy_ivan said:
There are many discussions on what is unfair for survivors but as someone that plays roughly 50/50 killer/survivor I don't see much discussion around criticizing survivor's lack of improvement. I get that DbD is a popular game and there are new players coming into the game all the time, but barring that the game has been out for many years and most of the problematic players in solo-q are not new players.
Main issue I see with survivors is they are not proactive with gens. They consistently go for easy far-off gens and 3-gen the team. Survivors have got to start learning the maps and being proactive about identifying and pressuring 3-gen locations early in the match, or in the event that there is a 3-gen, proactively identifying and helping the team to pressure different gens and force the killer to have to patrol all 3 gens. There are perks available to help out with this so "I don't know where the gens are" is not an excuse. Running around doing gens blindly is not doing you or the team any favors and in most cases you are handing the game over to the killer.
This brings up the second issue: Many survivors don't pressure 3-gen locations because they want to hide and are afraid to loop a killer. Survivors have to learn that each player in the team has to take their turn wasting the killer's time, and in addition survivors need to be taking hook states during the game, everyone needs to do this. No one is expecting you to take the killer for a 5-gen chase or 360-tech like a looping god but be proactive and learn to use tiles to your advantage, there are myriad youtube tutorials on the types of tiles and how to use them effectively as well as aura reading perks and items to help you see the killer while looping and evading. Time wasting perks like head-on, blast mine and others are also at your disposal.
Third, Too many survivors complain about being tunneled out too often, but aside from learning to use tiles better and improving your map sense and knowledge, are you also running any anti-tunnel perks? do you also take protection hits for your teammates or do you use perks or items to deny the killer hooks when they are being tunneled or do you hide in a corner?
TLDR: Too many survivors complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to improve their game by watching tutorials or run the perks needed to balance their weaknesses. Sometimes you are the main cause of your own demise during a match.
Too many survivors complain that the game is unfair but they don't work to improve their game
The idea that these complaints come from the same people that barely know the game is flat wrong. As a quick reminder, the lowest escape rate is actually at the highest MMR. The game is the most killer-sided at the higher MMR ranges. These complaints aren't coming from bad survivors that sit in a corner and do nothing all game.
Main issue I see with survivors is they are not proactive with gens. They consistently go for easy far-off gens and 3-gen the team. Survivors have got to start learning the maps and being proactive about identifying and pressuring 3-gen locations early in the match, or in the event that there is a 3-gen, proactively identifying and helping the team to pressure different gens and force the killer to have to patrol all 3 gens. There are perks available to help out with this so "I don't know where the gens are" is not an excuse. Running around doing gens blindly is not doing you or the team any favors and in most cases you are handing the game over to the killer.
I don't know why you are bringing this up. No one complained about survivors creating their own 3-gens, except for killers. The 3-gen complaints had nothing to do with survivors 3-genning themselves, but with certain killers (Specifically Knight and Skull Merchant) permanently locking down the three gens closest to one another from the start in order to force a 3-gen. The wrong killer design, as proven by several showcases, can blast this issue into the stratosphere to the point where the most favoured tactic for Skull Merchant was getting the match to time out.
This is not okay. This is extremely obviously not okay. But it also has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
This brings up the second issue: Many survivors don't pressure 3-gen locations because they want to hide and are afraid to loop a killer. Survivors have to learn that each player in the team has to take their turn wasting the killer's time, and in addition survivors need to be taking hook states during the game, everyone needs to do this. No one is expecting you to take the killer for a 5-gen chase or 360-tech like a looping god but be proactive and learn to use tiles to your advantage, there are myriad youtube tutorials on the types of tiles and how to use them effectively as well as aura reading perks and items to help you see the killer while looping and evading. Time wasting perks like head-on, blast mine and others are also at your disposal.
Again, this is not being complained about, except by killers. This is argumentation killers bring up to try and get Distortion nerfed, not survivors.
Third, Too many survivors complain about being tunneled out too often, but aside from learning to use tiles better and improving your map sense and knowledge, are you also running any anti-tunnel perks? do you also take protection hits for your teammates or do you use perks or items to deny the killer hooks when they are being tunneled or do you hide in a corner?
Band-aid perks are never the solution to overarching problems with gameplay design, and they take away from depth of gameplay by crippling non-meta builds. Survivors shouldn't have to equip band-aid perks and sacrifice their loadout variety in order to resolve an issue that should naturally not exist. Additionally, while taking protection hits for your teammates may improve the tunnelled player's experience somewhat, it's also much more likely to give the killer the win by rewarding them with free pressure and slowdown.
Yes, it's true that hook denial is a way to slow down a tunnel, but that firstly requires a ton of coordination which makes for a deeply unfair effort balance between the survivors and killer (Which may be why high MMR 4-man squads have the highest escape rate, though still not hitting 50%), but secondly, this also encourages what is honestly the worst gameplay experience for killer. Often referred to as 'bully squads'.
Survivor complaints, by and large, have also not been about balance as much as they have been about quality of gameplay. You can improve as much as you want, getting tunnelled still means that you'll be kicked out of the match with roughly 8K points and a depip because you only got one fragment of survivor gameplay. And the rest of your teammates got to experience the joy of M1 and nothing else. Camping is much the same. Bleedout slugging is much the same.
The biggest thing survivors are asking for, is for the game to focus more on breadth of gameplay instead of constantly being flattened to a 1v1 with three spectators.
If survivors were truly concerned with the game's balance, we'd have seen far, far more clamouring for survivor buffs/killer nerfs with the release of the latest stats that just flatly prove that the game is killer-sided at the moment. But by and large, the survivors didn't care about the balance.
They just want the gameplay to be addressed.
So I don't see what the point of this thread is, other than to gaslight people into thinking that any survivor complaint must come from lead-ELO, sub-10 hour Blendettes.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669258#Comment_3669258
Since they take this regression into consideration when balancing all other gen regression they would have to add more regression to what we already have.
How could they? It's 100% RNG. You can't chart that in balancing considerations.
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One instance, I was injured and ran up to a friend working on a gen. She let go of the gen, causing it to blow up. She then tried to heal me, but because BHVR has one button for everything, she went back on the gen. She let go again, blowing it up once more, then healed me. Then we got back on the gen, and when the killer came to push us off of it, it blew up again.
30% regressed, purely by chance.
@Coffeecrashing said:
If survivors are getting random generator explosions often enough that they consider it a problem, then they are leaving generators way too often.
Maybe BHVR could give survivors a grace period of 2 seconds after hitting a normal skill check, where it’s safe to let go of a generator. But also greatly increase the chances of a random generator explosion if a survivor lets go at any other time.
That would give survivors known safe times to leave a generator, and still discourages survivors from excessively pre leaving generators when the visual terror radius shows up. We don’t need to encourage survivors to excessively hide more than they currently do, so random generator explosions should always be in the game.
This would also add tension and decision making to the game. If the visual terror radius pops up, does a survivor try to wait for a skill check, or risk a generator explosion if they immediately leave? This is a horror game, and should have more tension moments like this.
Survivors running away from the killer has really become a design fault in your head, hasn't it?