Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710467#Comment_3710467
Ok then, it is too strong, and the stun should be shorter. Probably around 3 seconds….
It was literally nerfed BECAUSE of these problems, then they buffed it right back to where it was. And big surprise, it is overpowered again. What needs to be done is that anti-tunnel needs to be made some kind of basekit mechanic that the game is balanced around, and then DS reworked into an entirely different perk.
Considering the counterplay of slugging, I don't think it is overpowered. 3 seconds is definitely UP, though.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710092#Comment_3710092
Then it shouldn't be a big deal to get rid of that. Killers don't want this "advantage" and I bet a bunch of survivor players would also be happy, if their team mate didn't "waste" time bodyblocking with DS.
Bring the DS stun up to 7 seconds, turn the active time up to 80 seconds, rework base kit BT so that they survivor completely loses collision and becomes immune to attacks and then disable DS on protection hits. Done. Now it's even stronger than before but it can no longer be used aggressively.
I am fine with that.
@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710092#Comment_3710092
Then why was it a problem back in the day?
It wasn't.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710128#Comment_3710128
no, it is DS problem because DS is removing the risk. You see, if you bodyblock without DS, then your removing your own anti-tunnel from OTR. there is no good play that killer can make that is time-efficient play to counter the perk. The pre-buffed balanced this problem by keep rewarding medium-low.
But if you remove OTR, you just slug 'em out without any problem.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710125#Comment_3710125
I literally said this in the first post and rieterated it twice to prove how strong this stuff can be stacked. Did you not read it? True forums fashion I guess lol. Anyways, Later.
But that's an OTR problem, not a DS one, isn't it?
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710119#Comment_3710119
How if they have OTR and they are bodyblocking you? I said this in the post as well. And you'd be surprised how many people do this because it's effective. If you have endurance and ds and unbreakable. Why not just stall the killer with them? There's literally nothing the killer can do because they have to hit the unhooked twice. Leave them on the floor which they'll get back up. Or eat the DS. I'm starting to feel we don't play the same game strength. And conditions? The survivor has 3 fairly strong at high mmr perks. They try to force them on the killer in the ways that are easiest. Conditions met.
That's three perks now! That's just about an entire build going up to two bodyblocks.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710107#Comment_3710107
How so? I literally said. One survivors on gens already. One survivor was on hook and is now unhooked. The survivor who unhooked them goes back to doing a gen. The survivor does all that, blocking the killer who's in chase with the only survivor not doing gens. The killer has to let the chased survivor go because the unhooked survivor has taken all their attention so they can do gens now as well. That's still all 4 accounted for. Now are you gonna tell me what the killer should do against this? Because I'm also doing my job while trying to explain this to you.
You could count to ten to avoid the BT. Or switch to target the unhooker.
That is, if this scenario ever occurs, considering the conditions you've heaped on it.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710104#Comment_3710104
You do know how much consequence this is to the killer as well though right? Survivor gets unhooked. They have the trifecta let's say for the sake of my arguement. They see their healthy teammate being chased. They get in the killers way. Killer smacks them. (2.7 second weapon swipe) and the survivor runs forward before bodyblocking again. Killer downs them (2.7 seconds again not counting the chase time we could say 10 seconds for brevity). The survivors down now. The killer can choose to go continue their chase with the healthy survivor where they gotta catch back up again first and not to mention any loops that survivor has now gotten to. They can camp the survivor on the floor for the rest of their ds time. (Which means they are buying time for their rest of their team on gens) or the killer can pick them up and get this over with which hits them with a 5 second stun and they gotta re-down the survivor again. All of this is happening while 2 survivors can still be holding that gen button. Who's losing more time here really? Especially if the killer camps the slug the 3rd survivor is now also free to go do some gens. Not every killer can be everywhere at once. Sometimes even the little times matter a lot. (Realized I never mentioned unbreakable but don't really need to since the killer still has to wait out ds anyway to even pick up) and the survivor can do this every unhook if you don't burn the ds on the first pick up. Say they picked themselves up with unbreakable the first time. They'll just do it their next unhook and this time they need a teammate. Congrats.
Your whole scenario has 5 survivors on the block, dude.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710101#Comment_3710101
You know what I meant. If the killer doesn't just camp the slug to wait out the DS and they have unbreakable. Because i was speaking to a killer trying to play fair and chase different survivors. But eitherway if you don't wanna actually argue the point of the post. You do you. These perks may be a shield but they can also be a very sharp sword if used in a different way.
That's not 'no consequence', though! That's the point! Two perks and a bunch of downtime for a survivor you're not pressuring, how's that a problem?
Yeah, the scenario seems very unfair to the killer if you ignore every detriment to the survivor.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710092#Comment_3710092
Isn't that what they did back in 2020 that people hated? Because it basically forced you to get a weapon swipe via downing them. Then have to make up the distance to chase your initial target again? Except now they can use stuff like OTR and block you twice. And if you pick them up you get stunned. If you leave them on the floor they are allowed to get up with no consequence. Basically there's no winning for the killer here because the survivors can just use their perks as shields for their teammates. A true tunneler will honestly just hard focus them to get them out of the match as fast as possible. Meaning they don't have to deal with all this. A fair killer has to either decide to take them out of the game to prevent them from being aggresive with it or just let them go scott free after they already ruined the killers chase they had. Like I love the perks I use them to. They are nice when your actually being hard focused out. But when I'm playing the other side and survivors just want to flaunt it and be aggressive. I'm taking them out for it.
If you leave them on the floor they are allowed to get up with no consequence.
I must've missed the patch where survivors can now instantly recover from the dying state, basekit.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710009#Comment_3710009
I doubt it will happen because DS doesn't just "disincentivize tunneling", DS also punishes quick downs on mobile Killers.
Take a Blight with bbq for instance. Blight hooks A, goes for B far away from the hook thanks to bbq and downs B quickly. C unhooks A just as B gets hooked. Blight sees C healing A at the hook and heads over because pressuring both Survivors would force D to get off the gen and go for the unhook on B. Blight goes for A thanks to the blood stains and downs them, gets hit by DS on the pickup.Should the Blight deserve the DS because they tunneled or because they were doing their objective too fast? (Starting and ending a new chase quickly and returning to interrupt a heal)
When Blight sees that A has just been pulled off the hook and decides to go for A, yes, that is tunnelling.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3710019#Comment_3710019
Incoming unbreakable.
Then they're dropping two perks and a bunch of slug time, plus extra idle time while fishing for an opportunity, on one bodyblock. Resurgence would probably work better.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/412713/new-ds
Yeah sure, if DS user aggressively bodyblocks the killer, that killer should just stand still, wait for DS User to leave himself, then only start moving. Doing anything else is called tunnelling.
GOOD
Just don't pick them up once they go down. They'll waste their own time more than yours.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I would do this:
Increas the stun duration to 6 seconds. (extra 1 sec)
However the moment Killer hooks someone else the perk deactivates to make it really anti-tunnel.
Makes hook trading too strong.
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Universal perk for survivors: Ghostpath.
When you are unhooked or unhook yourself, Ghostpath activates for 80 seconds. While it is active, press the active ability button while running to slip into the spirit realm for 10 seconds. While in the spirit realm, you are blinded and oblivious, and cannot see the killer, other survivors, or breakable objects. You cannot interact with anything, you cannot collide with killers or survivors, you cannot be seen by anyone, and you leave no scratch marks, blood pools, make no noise, show no aura and show no killer instinct.
Ghostpath deactivates once it has been used, or if a conspicuous action is performed.
Universal perk for killers: Grim determination.
Every time you are blinded or hit with a pallet while carrying a survivor, Grim Determination gains a token. For every token, you recover 10% faster from getting blinded or hit with a pallet while carrying a survivor.
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It's garbage to play against,but, you know..
'It's a valid strategy'
'Can't win without it'
'Your fun is not my concern'
Etc, etc.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709102#Comment_3709102
(Anyone got any idea how to make that > function work on mobile?)
I think you're referring to the quote feature to highlight a specific statement like above?
If so, there's a paragraph button on mobile in the bottom left of the text box next to 'image' you can use, select the quotation mark ", and pick quote. It'll highlight whatever you type or copy/paste.
If so, there's a paragraph button on mobile in the bottom left of the text box next to 'image' you can use, select the quotation mark ", and pick quote. It'll highlight whatever you type or copy/paste
Thank you kindly!
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709084#Comment_3709084
How good Hens and Otz are matters less when you consider that in a normal game, you aren't perkless, powerless, or starting 30 seconds late.
The comparison doesn't work. That's my point. Even with meta perks you don't get the same results. BHVR would heavily nerf killers as a response, if that happened. But they don't.
Also, if MMR works as intended, you should be more likely than them to face that caliber of survivor. So I'm still not convinced that these perks are the sole reason killers are doing really well right now.
Yeah. Without meta builds you get to a certain point but that's where you cap. With meta perks you can climb a lot higher. That's why the kill rates don't climb infinitely even if a killer is buffed or killer perk.
Game's too complex to just take base gen time and compare it to gen speeds.
Not really. You cannot take basic numbers to say much about balancing, that's right. But you can definitely draw a conclusion on what is and isn't possible. And 5 minutes matches are very well possible. The shortest full match I had ever played ended in just under 4 minutes. This is the absolute maximum that survivors can realistically achieve in terms of efficiency. You do not get anywhere that level as a killer. That simply isn't how the game works.
Killers are doing fine, they don't need yet more help.
That was not my point. My point was that killer meta perks have too big of an impact on the match especially when they're stacked. With a full meta build you are so much stronger, that you demolish a team you otherwise couldn't do much against. 2 things can be true at once. Without meta perks, many killers aren't in the best spot. With meta perks however, some of them become absolutely horrible to play against and most survivor groups lose by default.
(Anyone got any idea how to make that > function work on mobile?)
"Without meta builds you get to a certain point but that's where you cap."
Is it? Because if Hens and the others can push past that cap, why can't anyone else? They're not bionically gifted, are they?
"This is the absolute maximum that survivors can realistically achieve in terms of efficiency. You do not get anywhere that level as a killer. That simply isn't how the game works."
Not really. Killers can theoretically close matches out faster than that, and sometimes do. Not to mention they can 'condemn' a match early too. If a survivor's out the game fast enough, survivors likely won't win.
"My point was that killer meta perks have too big of an impact on the match especially when they're stacked. With a full meta build you are so much stronger, that you demolish a team you otherwise couldn't do much against."
As evidenced by what, though? By what percentage does the killrate drop between meta builds and off-meta builds?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708871#Comment_3708871
First off, these players are considered to be among the absolute best of the best. So comparing them to a normal player is about as accurate as comparing an average group of survivors to Team Eternal.
Second, I remember Hens' video. Did you watch that? I don't mean to shame anyone but many of these survivors were bad. There were cases in which these survivors screwed up the most basic things. Like getting mindgamed around a tile where they could see the killer at all times.
The only video (that I know of) where Otz did something similar, was the one with 30s afk and no perks. And that started this whole controversy about streamers secretly deranking (which I don't believe). But it was obvious that many of his opponents again played on a level that was way below average. I consider myself to be a fairly average player but I consistently play against people that are better than this. So does Otz on his streams.
This was also before the 6.1.0 update in which killers were buffed to a 60% kill rate overall. Otz at the time had an average of 3.65 kills (91.25% kill rate). There is no way that this painted an accurate picture.
Lastly, my own MMR can't be boosted by slowdown perks. Because I don't use them (usually). But I also know that I lose by default when survivors reach a certain level of efficiency. There is simply not much I can do when the gens are done in less than 5 minutes. Even with survivors, that really aren't incredibly there is simply no realistic chance for a killer to consistently reach that level of efficiency (which is good!).
The difference between a meta build on a now high tier killer like Billy and a good but not amazing build on a lower tier killer is night and day. No matter how good you are, there is a limit which you absolutely cannot surpass by skill alone. And because a survivor usually is the one that has to react in chase, their counterplay is built around that. So most killers can't force hits in a timely manner because then, there would be no counterplay for the survivor. This also means, that your chases cannot be infinitely fast.
30 seconds is a really quick chase. But when you factor in the time for hooking, traversing the map and starting the next chase, then it becomes clear, that 12 chases total cannot go as fast as the gens can go even if you could somehow manage to keep your chases that short, which isn't realistic to begin with.
How good Hens and Otz are matters less when you consider that in a normal game, you aren't perkless, powerless, or starting 30 seconds late.
Also, if MMR works as intended, you should be more likely than them to face that caliber of survivor. So I'm still not convinced that these perks are the sole reason killers are doing really well right now.
Also, that raw numbercrunching has never held up before, and it won't start holding up now. Game's too complex to just take base gen time and compare it to gen speeds. Killers are doing fine, they don't need yet more help.
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@radiantHero23 said:
@Firellius how is your experience? Did the DS buff change your survivor games?
Haven't played yet. I'm on vacation.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708861#Comment_3708861
Nope. Your statement about “casual” players is is exactly the thing that I’m addressing. If you’re casual, you should expect to lose to people who are better. The other factor is that a lot of here who claim to be casual are full of it. They run meta perks and are actually mad about losing, something that shouldn’t matter if they are just clowning around.
It's not my statement, and the statement you quoted said nothing about beating anyone, hence the confusion.
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Both DS and Ruin got a good change and a bad one in 6.1. DS got the bad nerf reverted, Ruin got the good nerf reverted. Ruin should get that flipped: back to 200% regression, and it burns out when a survivor dies.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708287#Comment_3708287
I reckon that's because the combination of different killer meta perks is stronger than it should be. When was the last time you saw a killer that ran no slowdown and how did that go? The difference between Pop + Pain Res and no slowdown is so big, that you basically have to use these perks. Other than that, your match can very well end in less than 5 minutes (with the use of an exploit, 4 minutes or less).
This might be manageable for a Nurse (though even that is debatable) but the average killer absolutely cannot keep up with this. Basically we are in a weird situation where we have Schroedinger's gens, that both go way too fast and way too slow.
The current slowdown meta has way too much synergy especially on killers that are already in a good spot. Compare the time Billy or Blight will need to activate and deliver their Pop + Pain Res and compare that to Freddy, Myers, Trapper, Legion etc.
I'm a bit skeptical about how 'necessary' those perks are. IIRC, Hens and friends checked their winrate when they played 115% killers without using powers, perks or tactics, and they still won the majority of their matches.
It's possible that these perks, much like tunnelling, inflate MMR to a point where you're playing above your skill level, creating an illusion of necessity.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708355#Comment_3708355
A person who only occasionally plays should expect to lose to someone who plays a lot. By your logic, survivors should expect to pick up the game and beat people who have been playing. At that point, just play a mobile slot machine game. Pure rng. In a pvp game, that’s a toxic mentality.
Did you quote the wrong person, by any chance?
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Kill rates are currently astronomical, the game could probably not survive another gen speed nerf.
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Heal speed bonuses stack additively and to my knowledge there is no limit. If you get all the stars to align, you can get a really good heal speed off the ground.
I actually ran that for a while, with Botany, We'll Make It, Desperate Measures and Self-care. Walking ambulance.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705666#Comment_3705666
"Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been
implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which
is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in
camping. "It does not. There are a myriad of anti slug perks that exist and slugging is very high risk as if it fails you gain nothing and lost a lot. Also, the only anti tunnel you're avoiding is DS and even then it has a long timer which is giving you a very long time to potentially get saved before it's over. He still can't pick you up till it's over. Oh is he bleeding you out while standing over you? The survivors aren't winning the game while he stands there for minutes throwing the match? When is this realistically even ever happening? I rarely ever see this and I play way more than the average person.
"There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and
slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest
levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking."If you think the game is balanced for 12 hook matches then there's nothing else we can talk about as that is an objectively false statement that will deter any future balance conversation as we have a completely different frame of reference.
"Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition
that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to
kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as
you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has
additional restrictions. "Wrong. Lethal could be rendered useless by Distortion and even turns off at the start of the match. Risk and negative right there. Corrupt turns itself off and even ends early if you play well. Negative and limitation on value. BBQ requires hooks, aka skilled play. NWTH requires wasting time on gen kicks which is a high cost and could potentially be countered by Distortion. I'll give you Bamboozle. Surge is heavily RNG, could be very good or bad depending on map and is limited in use by basic attack requirements. Sloppy is limited in use by basic attack requirements like Surge so is generally only usable well on already weak killers. Also has time limitation now.
You're too stuck on "normal game play". It can be part of normal game play but still have many negatives, skill requirements and restrictions which is what this entire conversation was about.
"And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest. "
Comparatively. If no other perks existed except Calm Spirit is Calm Spirit now too good? So saying it's still the strongest is irrelevant.
"Pardon?"
Sorry I forgot about a perk so useless that no one ever uses it. Why was this relevant?
There are a myriad of anti slug perks that exist
No there aren't.
slugging is very high risk as if it fails you gain nothing and lost a lot.
Shooting your own argument here, I see.
Also, the only anti tunnel you're avoiding is DS
And OTR, and basekit BT, and Babysitter, and Deliverance, and We'll Make It and whatever other unhook perks I forgot.
and even then it has a long timer which is giving you a very long time to potentially get saved before it's over. He still can't pick you up till it's over.
I think you got lost here: You're talking about slugging versus hooking, not slugging in addition to hooking. DS doesn't come into play if you never hook.
The survivors aren't winning the game while he stands there for minutes throwing the match?
Depends on the killer and the location the down has occurred, and the coordination of the survivors.
But also, why are you trying to tell me that it's a bad idea to slug when you specifically listed 'forced to hook a survivor' as a drawback to Pain Res because 'it's suboptimal'?
If you think the game is balanced for 12 hook matches then there's nothing else we can talk about as that is an objectively false statement.
I mean, it isn't, but okay.
Lethal could be rendered useless by Distortion
Oh so now we're gonna drop counterpicks in here, huh? And Lethal would require four Distortions to actually be countered. One Distortion won't do the trick.
and even turns off at the start of the match.
A) It doesn't, it has a persistent benefit that never goes away
B) Did you expect the aura reading to last the entire match?
Corrupt turns itself off
Okay, at this point, you do realise that you are arguing that killers are disadvantaged in their perk design because this perk isn't objectively the most broken thing in the entire game?
Your benchmark here is legitimately a perk that would make it physically impossible to lose, unless there is a cheater among the survivors. THAT is what you are pointing at and saying 'Why can't killers just have nice things?'
and even ends early if you play well.
And at that point, you don't need it. That's not a meaningful drawback to the perk.
BBQ requires hooks, aka skilled play.
A monkey could get a hook, hon. That's not 'skilled play'.
NWTH requires wasting time on gen kicks which is a high cost
No it ain't, especially with the gen-kick buffs. You ARE going to kick gens in the process of a normal match. Nowhere to Hide just adds free value on that.
Surge is heavily RNG
Everything in DBD is.
Sloppy is limited in use by basic attack requirements like Surge so is generally only usable well on already weak killers.
Different killers having different strengths and weaknesses is not a notch against the perks though. The only killer that will likely never M1 is Nurse, everyone else is perfectly able to make use of Sloppy.
You're too stuck on "normal game play". It can be part of normal game play but still have many negatives, skill requirements and restrictions which is what this entire conversation was about.
Except in a normal game, these perks are virtually guaranteed to give value, because their conditions are completely negligible. That is the point. Your standard for what a 'drawback' is has no roots in practicality.
If you were trying to argue this from the other side, you'd be arguing that it's a legitimate drawback to Sprint Burst that you can't make use of it if you're stuck in that dead-end spot on The Game.
Comparatively.
You're going to have a very uphill battle if you want to argue that killer perks, as a whole, are terrible. Pain Res is not 'the best of the worst', it's just plainly the best. Otherwise you'll have to argue that all of its competition is, from a balancing perspective, bad.
And considering your issue with Corrupt Intervention is that it doesn't last all match, thereby guaranteeing survivors can literally never finish their objective, you're gonna have a tough time with that.
Sorry I forgot about a perk so useless that no one ever uses it. Why was this relevant?
It's relevant because you decided to cherry pick the most conditional perk in the killers' top 10 (Also the strongest, but that gets shoved aside) and compared it to one of the less conditional perks in the survivor top 10, and then went 'see? Double standards!'
And then you forgot that this perk, which actually IS overburdened with drawbacks to the point where it's terrible, existed.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705618#Comment_3705618
"Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't
horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over
here crying about it.If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook."
No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook. The sole reason anyone would rather be hooked than slugged is because they want to exit the game early and give up which is something that shouldn't be encouraged. I would always rather be slugged. "Play like a normal person", so you mean aiming for a 12 hook game? Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
"It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look,
it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions
to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in
reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss
Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table."It's not disingenuous. The way you are phrasing this is disingenuous. We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here. I'd say I'm even being generous as I picked the most popular perk that is also considered by most the player base to be the best killer perk. So the "best" killer perk even has all these limitations.
I already said Deadlock is unhealthy design and I would change it as well. The difference here is that there are a few meta killer perks that I would agree are unhealthy whereas my statements above can be applied to most of the survivor meta and nearly all the exhaustion perks, which is the actual topic of this post, so I'd rather stay on topic. Also, Deadlock isn't even in the top 10 killer perks so we're being generous including it.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
No, that is not a weakness in game design. Complaining about slugging is irrational. We can go into this whole conversation if you would like. There is objectively more to do slugged than on a hook.
Except slugging also strips you of all protections that have been implemented to counter the other playstyle that you skipped over, which is tunnelling, and also permits a playstyle that Pain Res doesn't in camping.
Are you implying a 12 hook game is a rational and balanced for goal against all matches you can come across?
There's a gulf between 12-hook gaming and hard-tunnelling, camping and slugging. And even then, unless you are playing on the absolute highest levels, yes, the game is more balanced for 12-hooking.
We can replace Pain Res with almost any of the other top 10 killer meta perks, so I'm not picking an outlier here
You actually are.
According to Nightlight right now, the top 10 most used killer perks are: Pain Res, PGTW, Lethal Pursuer, Corrupt Intervention, BBQ & Chili, Nowhere to Hide, Bamboozle, Surge, Sloppy Butcher and Deadlock.
Outside of Pain Res, the ONLY perk in this list that has a condition that isn't 'play the game' is PGTW, and that's only that you need to kick within a certain timeframe. All the others will apply passively as you play the game normally. You picked the -one- perk that has additional restrictions.
And it doesn't help your argument that, even -with- all of these restrictions, it is still sitting pretty as the strongest.
"Deadline" isn't even a perk. I'm not sure what perk you're trying to reference here.
Pardon?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705368#Comment_3705368
Yeah I've been saying this for years that Exhaustion perks have flown under the radar way over tuned. I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though. I simply think (generally speaking, there are a couple exceptions) that they're not only over tuned but also unhealthy design. They're just always universally good. There's never a logical reason to not bring them other than just for the funsies.
Grey touches on it a bit but when you look at them perk for perk compared to other perks in the game the amount of value they give just blows everything else out of the water. It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
Then we get to the unhealthy part. We look at meta killer perks and what do most of them all have in common? They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements ect ect. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Was that an exhausting list to go through to get killer meta perk value? Whew
Alright let's look at survivor Exhaustion perks in general. What do "most" of them share? None of any of that.
We'll take Lithe for example since it's the most popular one. Requirement, find a vault…yup..that's it. The things that are literally everywhere. No negative, no skill requirement, no cap on activation's for the game..nothing but a small cooldown for game swinging effects.
I just don't see how anyone that is genuinely impartial and unbiased can look at this and not see a problem or at least a strong double standard in perk design.
requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Devs desperately trying to get you to play in a way that doesn't horrendously exploit a weakness in the game's design and y'all are over here crying about it.
If you play like a normal person, the only requirement that Pain Res has is that it's a scourge hook.
It's also super disingenuous to compare Pain Res to Lithe and go 'Look, it's double standards in perk design! Pain Res has a ton of conditions to its use and Lithe is free!' when the same argument could be made in reverse if you pick Deadline and Deadlock. Or better yet, if you toss Invocation: Weaving 4Ks on the table.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704278#Comment_3704278
"You must run the following to not have an awful time against things that aren't counterable as they stand."
So you have to bring god awful perks (for the most part) or perks with little use outside of stopping something that is impossible to counter normally?
You cannot compare this to distortion where your aura is revealed but you can still outplay the killer with looping and good game knowledge. Or Calm Spirit to counter Ultimate Weapon, as you could also loop and play (the issue was it did its job far too well for stronger killers with no good way to mitigate it).
Besides, these perks are bad for the following reasons:
-Lightborn: I've never needed this until BGP and Flashbangs caused this mess. This is a complete waste of a perk slot and a death sentence if I'm matched people of my skill level.
-Infectious Fright: A decent perk on some killers, but pointless when survivors have BGP. You won't catch them as they can stay far away and pre-run if you go after them. Sure, you can slug, but do you really want to encourage this sort of gameplay?
-Fire Up: Yeah unless all the gens are done, the changes in blinding timings are so generous it almost never matters. Even then, god awful perk just as bad as lightborn.
-Blood Echo: Beyond being mediocre, you actually have to HOOK people AND injure the saviours. The former isn't possible if you're getting flashbanged with BGP.
-Genetic Limit: Requires the survivors to do something out of your control first. Terrible perk.
-Mindbreaker: The only decent choice here. But then again they can also just walk for 5 seconds. Only useful to catch them when they're doing a gen, barely useful in this scenario.
-Septic Touch: Same as Genetic Limits.
Your suggestion that killers need to vary their builds goes against your whole thesis here: You MUST run at least one of these perks to not have to suffer something you CANNOT counter lest you simply slug the whole team. This is a horrible take and reinforces the incredibly unhealthy nature of the game's current state. I should not have to run specific perks to even be able to fulfil my objective.
As someone who's been in ton of tunnelling/camping threads, this looks so familiar…
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703951#Comment_3703951
Some games will involve a lot of chasing, some games will involve a lot of doing gens, some games may have you lie on the ground for a long time. Heck some games you may get hooked and that will be your game, one chase and then die on hook. These things are all part of playing DBD.
You aren't going to get the same level of equal play and interaction across all games but that isn't a bad thing.
Its one of the things that makes DBD as good as it is; is the stakes are high when playing survivor. Because you are at the whim of the killer to some extent, just like a horror film, it can be very costly to get caught.
While some may find this frustrating, the moment it gets watered down the game goes from a horror experience to being just a game of tag.
DBD shines because of its grittier and dirtier parts, camping, tunneling, gen rushing, tilting your opponent are all part of that grittier aspect.
I'd rather play 100 games against a camping or tunneling killer where they have license to kill as they choose over 1 where the killer choices are fixed and play is wholly predictable and relatively safe.
To go back to the question what's the point of playing?… well because that's DBD love it or leave it.
You aren't going to get the same level of equal play and interaction across all games but that isn't a bad thing.
And organically, that occurs to an extent that is perfectly fine. Depending on player skill, you might get more or less interaction, but you're generally going to have a game with, say, anywhere between 60 and 100% interactivity.
But that is a very far cry from a singular player, intentionally, single-handedly, deciding that this match is going to be 30% or less.
While some may find this frustrating, the moment it gets watered down the game goes from a horror experience to being just a game of tag.
It literally doesn't. Tunnelling and camping do not 'elevate' DBD above a game of tag. They devolve it by putting out of play a large amount of elements that elevate it above tag.
DBD shines because of its grittier and dirtier parts, camping, tunneling, gen rushing, tilting your opponent are all part of that grittier aspect.
I'm pretty sure you're the first person to ever dare the claim that DBD 'shines' due to camping and tunnelling.
And it's clear the devs don't agree with that, either.
I'd rather play 100 games against a camping or tunneling killer where they have license to kill as they choose over 1 where the killer choices are fixed and play is wholly predictable and relatively safe.
Those are not the only two options, not by a long shot. This makes it sound like you've been tunnelling/camping for so long, you've forgotten what DBD is outside of that.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703960#Comment_3703960
To be fair the topic was camping and tunneling and you didn't specify that comment referenced to mean only things like WS spamming and tea bagging, just "behaviour"… so to infer its use to describe camping and tunneling was completely appropriate at the time.
I'm more than happy to accept your explanation. But must note it coming after the inappropriateness has been pointed out does cast a slight cloud of its genuinity.
Never the less the label implies that only someone who was one would engage in described play which is still just resorting to insults over gameplay. So Raccoon's point still stands also.
The point was that frustration and horror are antithetical, which is why 'It's a horror game' is not a bail-out for tunnelling/camping.
If it helps convince you, I did call out that behaviour on both sides, and survivors literally can't camp or tunnel.
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@SoGo said:
Funny how some of these people are like:
„You should expect your teammates trying to get you killed just for DARING to try to get value out of this awful perk.“
„It's your fault. You used that perk“
Like, yes. The perk is very meh. But that doesn't give anyone the moral right to destroy the Invocation users game just for.. using the perk the way it is intended.
Solution: Just buff this perk so it's usable and people won't see it as a killer perk anymore.
Idea:
• It regresses at a rate of 1 c/s or less instead of it regressing to 0 in few seconds.
• It gives 15 unregressable charges instead of 10.
• (Optional) The Invocation takes 90 seconds instead of 120.
The problem with the way invocations work is that with the steep cost, the pay-off required would immediately feel unfair to killers.
The entire perk needs to be redesigned, and probably killswitched until that redesign is through. My personal suggestion is a 30 second invocation that essentially gives you a pocket BNP to install on one gen, and have the broken status dissipate once the BNP effect is in.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703341#Comment_3703341
Doesn't matter if it's a "nerf" or "buff" - spinning your wheels on this one.
Fun is subjective and the gameplay is appropriate for the theme. As I said just because you don't like some gameplay that doesn't invalidate it.
You're simplifying the point again with your "appeal to authority" take. Its not that its automatically good just because BHVR say so and players are welcome to critique it. But its part of the game so until something changes expect it might happen. I personally don't think it's problem on this we disagree and that's fine. BHVR have final say on that though and if its not for you then maybe DBD isn't for you.
If you insist on simplifying things then for example - I don't play candy crush its not for me, I also don't expect the developers of candy crush to change their game simply because I'm not a fan. If you aren't a fan move on already.
Here's a quick answer for you - One game has more interaction but both have gameplay.
Interaction is not the be all and end all of gameplay. You may think it is but its not. If you crave constant interaction then some parts of DBD are going to disappoint you. Which is very clear that's what you crave so stock up on disappointment there is a lot coming.
You are still playing the game when countering camping and tunneling. You are simply interacting with game items and enviroment rather than the killer player. Survivors have stuff to do when the killer camps and tunnels its just not interacting with the killer.
There is more to DBD than just being chased by the killer… you may dismiss everything else other than that but there is more. Those other things actually make up a larger portion of the game than player interaction. You choosing to ignore them as gameplay doesn't make them any less gameplay.
Same as your choosing to call players "A-holes" because they don't play how you prefer, it doesn't make them an "a-hole". Same as your dislike of lack of direct interaction doesn't invalidate all of the non-interactive parts of the game.
Its very clear you have an expectation from the game and don't like it when those expectations aren't met. Well guess what… tough. Suck it up or rage quit, the choice is yours. But if you are going to quit do so before you queue up and ruin the game for people who aren't quitters, even when they don't get the specific gameplay they want.
There is more to DBD than just being chased by the killer…
This is the exact problem with tunnelling though…
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703667#Comment_3703667
It's clear I'm not going to get anywhere with you because there is no discourse beyond "survivor hook twice = bad"
Forum killers see any complaint about tunnelling or camping and just immediately jump to 'Guess I can't hook anyone ever'.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703655#Comment_3703655
The OP is riled up about a non-issue. The scenario they gave us was them being resentful of a clever singularity player that outplayed all 4 survivors. I play survivor every day, I know how it works, I know the gameplay loop. Because of that, I recognize what actual hard tunneling is and am able to differentiate it from a good killer playing smart. Otzdarva already came up with the best anti tunnel proposition and everyone hated it. Killer players hated it because it gave an inch and they're worried the balance team will take a mile, and suvivor players hated it because they want to be immune to their own mistakes.
It's not a non-issue, bud. Just because YOU don't care doesn't mean no one else does. The fact that this keeps coming back up consistently proves it's not a non-issue.
Also, if you think a killer leaving a downed survivor on the ground to teleport back to hook in order to tunnel the first hook out is somehow not hard tunnelling but just 'a good killer playing smart' as if these are mutually exclusive things, you don't recognise what tunnelling is at all.
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703647#Comment_3703647
This is exactly the kind of sanitization of killer gameplay that should be avoided. Singularity had one survivor hooked, chased another, checked his cam, saw someone rotating in for the save and snowballed into maximum pressure. This is high macro awareness on the killer's part and his reward was the win.
But the survivor main proposition is instead to punish that player's good gamesense because it was interpreted as a toxic offense. The post is a soft admission to wanting the killer to be railroaded into bot-like gameplay and to place a hard cap on the ability to build pressure.
You're fully missing the point of the thread.
The thread is asking: What is my incentive to stay in the game against a hook camper or tunneller?
Your answer: The killer should tunnel.
That's not an answer. And it's not engaging with what is and has been a legitimate problem. You're too obsessed with retaining the ability to tunnel to consider the other perspective.
@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703647#Comment_3703647
I assume you are referring to the scenario if OP tried to hide from the camera to prevent Slipstream teleport. When Singularity "wakes up" from using a biopod located near a hooked Survivor, the transition time takes 5 seconds which means OP has ample time to perform the unhook and start moving away. At that point, it's not much different from Trapper seeing an unhook and walking back to it. If OP wanted to demonstrate how unfair camping was, Singularity isn't the Killer to pick given the basekit anticamp limitations on the power.
Once again, since OP didn't go into details, I would just assume the Killer was far enough from the hooked Survivor to justify using the biopod instead of walking back to hook.
None of that is going to stop the tunnelling though, is it?
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703624#Comment_3703624
It's not uncommon for Singularity players to switch to cam mode after downing a Survivor so that they can get off an infection for later on.
Since OP didn't go into detail, my guess is that as lockon via biopod takes much longer to charge up when near a hooked Survivor, OP was probably already infected when going for the rescue. That means OP had ample warning that he was being locked on. Either finding cover or bringing an EMP would have denied Singularity from teleporting. That's the "misplay" that was being referred to.
And would've denied the unhook, while giving the singularity time to walk back to hook. Lose-lose scenario.
@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703624#Comment_3703624
What should be done about game one? Should the killer be disallowed from interrupting an unhook? If you catch someone rotating in for the save, is it unsportsmanlike to stop them?
The killer played the game to win and it's framed as some kind of injusticeWhat should be done about game one?
Nerf tunnelling. If the killer has no incentive to tunnel, they'd opt to hook the downed survivor instead of sprinting back to hook to tunnel and/or deny unhook.
The killer played the game to win and it's framed as some kind of injustice
No, what's being framed as an injustice is that this survivor player is saying 'I don't see a reason to continue playing if killers do everything in their power to diminish gameplay'. It's the killers once again getting their knickers in a twist over someone saying 'tunnelling/camping is bad for gameplay'.
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@LeFennecFox said:
Game 1: survivors make a massive misplay and killer punishes the survivors with good macro
Game 2: survivors make a massive misplay and killer punishes the survivors with good macro
Maybe one day people will learn how to play the game instead of relying on bhvr to remove any killer punishment for bad plays. The biggest problem with this game is the refusal to improve and instead blaming the other side. When I get ran for long enough that a gen pops I don't think "op survivors with no empathy gen rushing!". I think, "I should have dropped chase sooner or not chased here". Not much comeback potential when the instinct for players is to give up instantly when the killer exerts any pressure at all.
Game 1 is a survivor going for an unhook while the killer is chasing someone else. This is now considered a 'massive misplay'.
Killers are just getting worse, aren't they?
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@Quizzy said:
Listen. They heard the community's cry. Although they specifically said the buff wasn't to fix tunneling (in reality they support tunneling even if it's a playstyle btw), they know the community has been very vocal about how killers have been tunneling much more lately. It's good that it's back to 5 seconds since it can't be abused like it used to, being that conspicuous actions now disables it.
Just a little context note: DS got the conspic action nerf quite a ways before it got cut from 5 to 3 seconds.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703260#Comment_3703260
Counters to gameplay don't invalidate gameplay. They are simply counters. Almost every mechanic in game can de said to be a counter to another particular mechanic or gameplay. For example players repair gens killers can kick them to regress gens does this mean that repairing or kicking gens is invalid because a mechanic exists to counter it. No not "Almost like they're not valid gameplay" that's a complete fallacy.
If the player lost legitimately and is losing interest in play when they lose legitimately then its not a game problem. Maybe DBD isn't the game for them or even online gaming in general if losing legitimately causes them to want to quit.
The ol adage "if you are going to dice rage then perhaps avoid games that require dice."
Its you whom defined legitimate opponent behaviour as being an "A-hole" refer to my previous comment below
"Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay."
I'm afraid being frustrated by the game and defining play you don't like as other players being "A-holes" says more about you as a gamer and your expectations of others, than it does about the game itself.
You are still playing even when not interacting with the killer, player interaction is just one aspect of the game.
I'm afraid just quitting because the game isn't to your liking is not an example of "The only winning move is not to play" although it may be the best move to not play if you don't like the game, but make that decision before you sign up to play rather than quit and ruin everyone else's fun.
Counters to gameplay don't invalidate gameplay. They are simply counters.
The changes made are not active counters though, they are straight up nerfs. This is not something the survivors can opt to do, this is something that happens passively. It does not create additional interaction and gameplay like kicking gens does. That's the difference.
If the player lost legitimately and is losing interest in play when they lose legitimately then its not a game problem.
It absolutely can be. Loads of games have ways in which you can lose that are legitimate, but not fun. Dying to a gank boss in a Souls-like is a legitimate way to get destroyed, but that does not mean that it being legitimate is a magical ticket to being good game design or good gameplay.
What you are doing here is an appeal to authority. The devs say it's okay, therefor it is automatically good. The problem with that is that this is a forum where feedback is supposed to be aggregated. Feedback that devs will want to listen to.
DBD will still be DBD without camping and tunnelling. They're not integral, core aspects of the game.
Maybe DBD isn't the game for them or even online gaming in general if losing legitimately causes them to want to quit.
You're not even engaging with what is being said in an honest manner, instead choosing to dismiss it as 'you're just upset you lost'.
Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay
Hey, quick quesh for ya:
In one match, a survivor gets to do a gen, takes a chase, gets hooked, gets unhooked, goes for an unhook, heals an ally, does a totem and is ultimately sacrificed.
In the other match, the survivor is only able to do gens and leave.
Which of these two has more gameplay?
You are still playing even when not interacting with the killer, player interaction is just one aspect of the game.
No, player interaction is pretty much the entire game.
I'm afraid just quitting because the game isn't to your liking is not an example of "The only winning move is not to play" although it may be the best move to not play if you don't like the game, but make that decision before you sign up to play rather than quit and ruin everyone else's fun.
No, 'the only winning move is not to play' is in regards to the counters for camping and tunnelling. Which is what this topic is also referencing. The survivors have nothing to do if the killer camps and/or tunnels. They can't make that decision when they queue up, because the circumstances only occur once in the match. They're not DBD's baseline.
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BHVR are making mechanics to reduce the most "unhealthy" versions of these tactics.
Almost like they're not valid gameplay.
Also the OP wasn't really subject to "unhealthy" tunneling or camping from their example, they just got caught out by player mistakes and a killer who capitalized on them.
Going for an unhook when the killer is busy chasing another person on another part of the map is not a survivor mistake. This is the entire problem: Unhooking is supposed to be a normal part of gameplay, but in these discussions, it is pretty much, without exception, being labelled a mistake. This means that what the survivor is supposed to do is just sit on a gen and hold M1, or stay on the hook for the other person.
That's the death of gameplay.
"I feel angry about the outcome" isn't the most constructive of feedback.
First off, the thread is about losing incentive to play the game. That is pretty critical. -You- are the one dismissing this as someone being upset about losing, refusing to engage with the feedback that is actually given.
"Its just a skin" like I said you are ignoring the theme, to make a more simplified point about the mechanics.
Theme is not gameplay, and is a terrible reason to mess up balance or gameplay flow. The gameplay has to continue working in order for the theme to function, thus the former has to inform the latter, not the other way around.
######### behavior as you put it is more likely to be immersion breaking when survivors conduct it rather than killers.
That's not the matter of the discussion.
Because as the antagonist, the killer is expected to be an #########. Someone who chases you, subjects you to non-participation and then elimination is an ######### but that is the killer role.
No, they're supposed to be the opponent, not an #########.
That annoyance and frustration you and many describe, as loath as folks may be to admit it, is born of the fear of, or at least the aversion to, elimination. So DBD through its mechanics elicits an emotional response consistent with aversion. Aversion being one of the core concepts of horror.
But we're not talking about aversion wholesale. We're talking about frustration. Frustration isn't a horror element.
If you're purely talking about aversion, you could make the argument that players should be allowed to cheat to work the horror element in. The entire theme stops functioning as soon as it becomes frustrating.
Camping is still player interaction.
It is not. It is indistinguishable from watching paint dry if players play their cards right.
If players choose not to take that risk that is up to them.
Not really, the game does dictate, to a point, what the players should do. If non-interaction is what needs to be done, then it's not really up to the players. Again, choosing to engage with this, and having it result in a win for the killer will simply exacerbate the problem.
The only winning move is not to play.
Which is what this thread is addressing.
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Normally I'm all about off-meta picks and the like, but there's really no two ways about it: Running and actually trying to complete Weaving Spiders IS griefing.
That doesn't give others the right to grief you in turn, but I would not be opposed to having the invocation itself be a bannable offense too.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702702#Comment_3702702
Firstly - You are really splitting hairs here, valid strategy is part of valid gameplay. Camping and tunneling are part of that and valid as a result.
Whether you like what decisions they make or not, BHVR are the game developers, its their game. We all just pay to play it, like any product.
There is nothing wrong with providing feedback to suggest changes but really if its not constructive its largely pointless and most of the complaining about game mechanics is not really constructive feedback.
Its a great buzz term "the games design flow" but what do you really mean by it? The violence, gore, theme and concept of the game all belong in the survival horror genre. What part of violently stalking, torturing and killing a group of captive survivors while they desperately try to escape doesn't belong in the horror genre?
That's like saying there is not enough sex, drugs and violence in Fall Guys to make it a family friendly game. Its like your choosing to ignore the concepts that make up the horror genre and the concept of DBD in order to simplify a point about its mechanics.
Halloween, Nightmare on elm street, Friday the 13th aren't scary to me since I was a kid, but that doesn't stop them being horror films. The same holds true for DBD.
Secondly - What you mean here is interaction. Yes interaction is part of gameplay but its not the be all and end all of gameplay because avoiding interaction is part of gameplay too.
Its not the most interactive of games as you put it "when everyone plays their cards right" but its still a game of DBD. If you want more interaction from that scenario then force it, get in the killer's face, try and rescue your team mate.
Firstly - You are really splitting hairs here, valid strategy is part of valid gameplay. Camping and tunneling are part of that and valid as a result.
That's not splitting hairs. They're valid strategies, as in, they're not considered griefing or otherwise bannable conduct. But that's still a chasm away from being healthy for the game. The devs never called it 'valid gameplay'.
There is nothing wrong with providing feedback to suggest changes but really if its not constructive its largely pointless and most of the complaining about game mechanics is not really constructive feedback.
This thread specifically highlights the impact that tunnelling and camping have on the survivor players. This is pretty constructive feedback as it illustrates not just that it's a problem but also -why- it is a problem.
Its a great buzz term "the games design flow" but what do you really mean by it? The violence, gore, theme and concept of the game all belong in the survival horror genre. What part of violently stalking, torturing and killing a group of captive survivors while they desperately try to escape doesn't belong in the horror genre?
Horror is the jacket that it wears. The actual gameplay underneath is a game of tag.
Is tag horror survival?
The only gameplay element that I can think of that DBD does that is specifically horror in its execution is stealth, and with the plethora of intel perks, that's been pared down over time. Not to mention how difficult the game makes that from the get-go with survivor noises, scratch marks and blood pools.
Beyond that, the game is just tag. The horror is just the skin.
Not to mention that horror requires immersion, and nothing is more off-putting to immersion than frustration. ######### behaviour is definitely going to take you out of the horror experience. On both sides.
Secondly - What you mean here is interaction. Yes interaction is part of gameplay but its not the be all and end all of gameplay because avoiding interaction is part of gameplay too.
That is, as long as said avoidance of interaction is, in itself, interactive. Stealth is. Camping is not.
Its not the most interactive of games as you put it "when everyone plays their cards right" but its still a game of DBD. If you want more interaction from that scenario then force it, get in the killer's face, try and rescue your team mate.
And reward the killer with a free win, thus encouraging them to utilise the strategy more.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702268#Comment_3702268
No just don't go for the save in the Killers face… so either wait for the Killer to walk away or if they stay then forget about them and do Gens
I mean… is it worth sitting around the hooked Survivor if the Killer isn't going to go far or is it worth it to do Gens
Exactly what I'm saying. OP asks what their incentive is to continue playing in these scenarios where the killer camps or tunnels, and you argue 'these scenarios should be way more common'.
That just makes the problem bigger.
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@Doublenurseblinks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702614#Comment_3702614
incorrect. camping and tunneling are valid gameplay and the devs have been clear on this.
some people cant accept that the devs make the rules around here. they will grow up eventually.
The devs never called them valid gameplay, they called them valid strategies. Both diminish gameplay, camping moreso than tunnelling.
The devs are also not the be-all-end-all, they've been wrong on plenty of occasions.
@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702614#Comment_3702614
The game didn't change just because you became desensitized to it. Its still very much a survival horror regardless of some players efforts to undermine that.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
Some gameplay might not be your desired gameplay but that distinction doesn't make it any less gameplay.
It's not me being desensitised to it, it's the game's design flow too. There's no scary moments that belong to the horror-survival genre. Nothing about DBD qualifies it to be horror survival. Elements that it did have, have been pared down over time.
Defending a hook is not avoidance of gameplay. In fact it can sometimes be the best play to make. By this logic hiding from the killer is avoidance of gameplay, sometimes its also the best play to make.
That's why I specified 'when everyone plays their cards right'. Sitting under a hook waiting for a person to die results in you as killer not doing anything, the person on hook not doing anything, and the survivors only getting to hold M1 on gens. It's death of gameplay.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701456#Comment_3701456
Absolutely not.
As survivor your goal is to try and survive against the odds. Resetting the game condition for each player just because they got hooked completely undermines the point of the game.
Its akin to just having everyone respawn constantly so no one ever dies and then no one ever has to feel bad or quit because they lost in a manner they didn't like.
Its an attempt make DBD as toothless and as generic a game experience as possible then all the quitters can feel safe and happy.
Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
Its a terrible idea, that completely undermines the horror survival content that DBD is trying to emulate.
DBD stopped being horror survival a long time ago.
As for "proxy camping", well that isn't even really a thing. Defending a hook and playing around a hook is just gameplay. Its been given a label simply so it can be complained about.
It's not 'gameplay', it's the avoidance of gameplay. All players playing their cards right, no one interacts with each other from that point on.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Have you played any Killer at all???
1st match:
Singletary most likely knew that an unhook would happen as soon as he got the down (happens to me a lot) so going back to the hook after getting the down to see if he couldn't get the savior (optimistic mindset) seems like a good all… having a Hook a one Survivor, downed another one and knowing that the savior is close to the hook means that only 1 Survivor is doing a Gen (that's a lot of pressure to have)
The pressure generated by a hook is like having 3 Gens done… Slugs like 2… Injured Survivor like 1 (or like half a Gen)
2nd match:
Hooks are apart of a much bigger issue… you reap what you sow
That being said… you going for a save knowing that the Killer is going to hook as close as possible (cause wiggling off the Killer takes away pressure… just look at the 1st match as an example) makes it a bad play (from the Killers POV)
So in conclusion…
1- Play some Killer games
2- Play the situation you are giving and not think about "Killer is Camping and Tunneling all the time"
This doesn't change the argument though, this just makes the problem way bigger.
In either case, it seems the main advice is to not make a play. Leave them on hook. This is bad gameplay for both the rescuer, and the hooked person. So if survivors are expected to just give up on their gameplay, what reason do they have to play the game?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701852#Comment_3701852
Because a 2K means the exits are open.
The killer has two objectives, kill survivors and prevent the exits from being powered. You failed to prevent the exits from being powered.
The killer has two objectives, kill survivors and prevent the exits from being powered
Where does it say that?
Because I'm pretty sure the only objective given to killers is to kill survivors. The state of the exit-gates is not mentioned anywhere, I don't think.@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701897#Comment_3701897
Win conditions aren't concrete. What I should have said is a 2K isn't definitively a tie, or officially a tie.
There can be different types of 3K. Was it a 3K at 5 gens and someone got that hatch, or did the gates get openned and then the killer hooked and killed 3 survivors during EGC? Both are very different games, and the same goes for 1K, 2K and 4K games.
If you personally want to consider it a tie when you get 2 kills, that's your prerogative, but it's not a standard you can apply to all games for other players.
But yes, you're on the right track in regards to kill rates. A balanced kill rate should be somewhere between an avarage 2K and 3K. A 2.5K average would be 62.5%, which is roughly where the strongest killers currently sit.
But yes, you're on the right track in regards to kill rates. A balanced kill rate should be somewhere between an avarage 2K and 3K. A 2.5K average would be 62.5%, which is roughly where the strongest killers currently sit.
You're confusing the outcome of the average match for the average outcome. They're not the same. Killers win more than they lose at the moment.
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@Raccoon said:
Two massive misplays.
Yeah, it's better to never unhook anyone.
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@Archael said:
So. Because certain topics went into the course of killrates and winrates i came into conclusion that new topic is needed.
This is not a suggestion tho it will contain my suggestion of how to balance things. Main point of this topic is to discuss over what feels fair in terms of team balance. And as much as balanced players opinions are most valuable, because they know each side more less the same, all opinions are valid since its not a suggestion thread but a discussion one. So killer players, survivor players and even entitled players can be heard.
So. Current devs aim is around 60% killrate. Some people may call it being killer sided but truth is that its not as simple.
Statistics is about big number, and statistically 60% killrate means that every one survivor has 40% chance of escape, and 2.4 survs in every match are sacrificed. But this also means that killer wins 40% of the time with rest 60% being draws/loses. Idk how devs calculate hatch escape for killer, i would consider it as 4k for better statistics, and aim more for 57-59% killrate, but 40% winrate for every player is quite fair tbh.
But this is because dbd is not team game. Survivors are competing against the killer but also with themselves - even if killer kill only 1 survivor and lost a match, this still means that at least one survivor lost along with the killer.
For more balanced and good feelings, i would AIM for 50% winrate for each TEAM but this would require survivors being a team, yet since every survivor can loose before others fate is decided its impossible. We would need to remove one of core dbd gameplay features - hook sacrifices.
I have an idea of making trials having timer.
Killer need to hook, mori, hit, and do whatever they can, to interrupt survivors objectives.
Of course objectives would need a balance pass.
Hooks would last a minute with ability for being unhooked, but after a minute, hooked surv would be removed from hook and placed at least 36m away from killer.
Mories would put surv in ghost mode, where they can move freely, but cannot take conspicious actions, nor have collision, and may or may not be visible by other survivors. Mori lasts for 1.5 minutes.
If survs manage to do their objective their whole team won and escaped.
If survs fail to do their objectives, they are sacrificed to the Entity, and they are dead (did i mentioned that trials should be at night, and timer should count down to dawn?) by daylight.
Here we go again…
Statistics is about big number, and statistically 60% killrate means that every one survivor has 40% chance of escape, and 2.4 survs in every match are sacrificed. But this also means that killer wins 40% of the time with rest 60% being draws/loses.
This model is inaccurate. It does not account for the distinction between 0Ks and 1Ks, nor does it consider 3Ks and 4Ks.
If you take this model and dip the killrate down to 50%, you'd see this immediately, as the model predicts a 0% winrate on 50% kill rate. Meaning that the model thinks it is impossible to have two matches, back to back, where one is a 4K and the other a 0K.
This model is not possible in theory, and is, in practice, disproven by Nightlight. (And before anyone interjects that Nightlight is not reliable: That is not relevant here. Unless Nightlight's data obeys entirely different rules and is recording outcomes that are impossible, such as one trial having a 3K and 2E at once, the model is supposed to work on it.)
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She'd be an interesting addition to the roster, though, very distinct from other killers in terms of style and aesthetics.