Firellius
Firellius
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744931#Comment_3744931
Replying coz england drew :(
You are putting considerably more effort into telling people that you have stated this than in actually stating it. You made two throw-away remarks in a thread in which you detailed all of the survivor stuff you want nerfed.
If you come in, guns blazing, shouting that [A], [B] and [C] MUST be nerfed and people should STOP defending such BROKEN things, and then mutter under your breath that you'd be okay if [D] and [E] got nerfed as well, people are going to infer where your priorities lie.
Which in and of itself is not that much of a problem, it's daily routine on these forums. But I find it ironic that you label someone else an 'entitled [role] main' when you exude the exact same aura.
Its because nobody is arguing with me that pop and pain res should not be nerfed.
Thats it eveyone is just jumping to defend the other sets of perks right now.
Its just as simple as that
This is the only comment that has questioned it. The only comment and it was posted 2 days after my original post
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DENXKODZNH5V/capture-png.png
If I stretch it this may count but they just seem to disagree with the general opinion I have that things are too strong.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KWDPLQ0RL87Q/capture-2-png.png
If you want my take on pop and pain res it's that they need to be gutted. Minor nerfs will lead to killers still stacking them together as they do if they are left as the best 2 perks in the game.
They are as far out of line with other regression perks as sprint burst is with exhaustion perks and more generally I think a mechanic like regression needs some form of limit like exhaustion perks have with the exhaustion status effect that limits how many you can run or forces some form of diminishing returns.
I personally think that killers being able to proc to many in quick succession will always lead to 3 gening being too prevalent as being able to keep gens up in unsafe locations will always translate into downs making them better than any other type of perk on the roster.
But because I haven't had to defend that take I've said less about it because I'm replying to people I only bring up what i think I need to not write.
Also
Running aura perks into distortion is pointless never can one player use 2 distortions while a killer can run 2 aura perks. Its just naturally weighted in the survivors favour unless the killer runs 0 aura then what does it become replaced by, slowdown regression ect. It's a perk in a fundamentally bad spot.
survivors can use the same beatstick as killers: 'We can -also- make the game worse for everyone'.
I know, Its why I want all of the stuff that is being used to makeup that beatstick nerfed on both killer and survivor.
I don't think it's that silly, because these perks have powercrept beyond control.
They changed with the game. The game went from having perks that revealed you for free like whispers but didn't give the whole game away to perks that show your location when conditions were fulfilled as the game became less about hiding and more about chases. Yes the powercrept the previous perks but the regression perk's power creep is more subtle as they get stronger with every other regression perk despite individual nerfs.
Though judging by how the forums are treating Distortion, how are you going to be able to find survivors if they're not permanently highlighted in neon red?
It's not just about that being punished disproportionately for running slightly weaker builds if the survivors use distortion feels bad, it's very rare but the few times I've play a game with 2 aura perks and went ah well I have half a build because I ran into 4 people using it sucks.
but it also leans into that part of the game I have previously said about where what you bring becomes more important the more powerful things are because if the killer goes all out with 4 slowdowns the perk does nothing and outperking people just becomes more prevalent.
Its because nobody is arguing with me that pop and pain res should not be nerfed.
Well, they couldn't. Not -before- you placed your opening post. Your opening post set the topic of discussion, and it put a magnifying glass on the survivors' stuff.
Your tone was very disinterested when it came to the killer perks. Barely a mention. People are going to assume that what you want to talk about is the thing you actually do talk about.
If you want my take on pop and pain res it's that they need to be gutted. Minor nerfs will lead to killers still stacking them together as they do if they are left as the best 2 perks in the game.
I don't think I even agree with you on that. I think Pop and Pain Res are acceptable, just not with the numbers they had.
Running aura perks into distortion is pointless never can one player use 2 distortions while a killer can run 2 aura perks.
But that is only if you are exclusively considering the 1v1. When you are considering the match as a whole, unless all four survivors are running Distortion, your aura perks will still do their job. It may be more restrictive, but they won't be 'pointless'.
Again, too, Distortion is protecting a lot of survivor perks from hitting this same wall.
I know, Its why I want all of the stuff that is being used to makeup that beatstick nerfed on both killer and survivor.
Except the stuff that's actually a problem seemed to fly under your radar, in favour of significantly less obnoxious perks.
They changed with the game. The game went from having perks that revealed you for free like whispers but didn't give the whole game away to perks that show your location when conditions were fulfilled as the game became less about hiding and more about chases.
It feels like you're appealing to a sort of organic shift in the game's playstyle as a justification for the existence of the newer aura perks, but I have to mirror that to Distortion. Why is the aura reading powercreep an organic change, but not Distortion?
It's not just about that being punished disproportionately for running slightly weaker builds if the survivors use distortion feels bad, it's very rare but the few times I've play a game with 2 aura perks and went ah well I have half a build because I ran into 4 people using it sucks.
Okay? That's kind of the nature of the game. We can't use this reason to kneecap killers like Wraith, Myers, Plague and Legion, either.
If you want to nerf Distortion, one of the ways to do it is by harshly nerfing the aura reading perks that make it function. Distortion is ultimately a counter-perk, and if it has nothing to counter, it won't be picked up. Currently though, aura reading is popular and extremely effective, meaning that Distortion, despite its flakiness, is an appealing pick for a lot of players.
In short, Distortion wouldn't be a problem if these killer perks didn't amputate a solid chunk of DBD's gameplay.
but it also leans into that part of the game I have previously said about where what you bring becomes more important the more powerful things are because if the killer goes all out with 4 slowdowns the perk does nothing and outperking people just becomes more prevalent.
And I agree with you on that, to a degree. What I disagree with is that the blame gets placed on Distortion here. Distortion has no innate value, and is ultimately reflective of the prevalence and power of the perks it counters. As they go up, so does Distortion.
In short: If Distortion is a problem, something's wrong with killer perks. Not with Distortion.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744526#Comment_3744526
You are vehemently campaigning to have everything that still gets used by survivors, the statistically weaker role, nerfed.
Ostensibly for the sake of perk diversity, but you seem unwilling to entertain the idea of buffing the underpicked.
You accuse others of being 'entitled [Role] mains', and I'm just telling you that you fit the bill too.
You are all in a bubble and sometimes when you are part of a bubble you don't realise how the bubble looks from the outside, the forums is not known for being the place you go to for sensible dbd takes for this reason most players are in their bubble and when they are confronted with an opinion about the game that is just different from theirs's it must be from them the other side.
It may seem ironic coming from "unused killer name" but its just how it is.
The fact that I have the opinion perks are generally too strong at the top end (so are addons and items but eh) want almost all the top survivor and killer perks nerfed and brought back in line and I have seen people go "you want to nerf suv stuff" and even the person i have argued the point with for a few days now back and forth says "i can see how they see you as an entitled killer main" in actually kinda insane
if you can call for 8 of the top 10 used killer perks (and there is, even more, I would nerf past that) to being nerfed in a thread and still get that it's mental.
This is also a good microcosm of why a lot of people think the forums are a bit of a dumpster fire you are either in the bubble or in the mental killer and suv camp.
This is also something that is often misunderstood. Distortion doesn't negate an aura reading perk by itself. One person having Distortion does not fully disable your NTH, FoR, UW or any other aura reading. It just protects one survivor.
You need four distortions to make these perks irrelevant.
Partially true but distortion makes whole perks irrelevant my favorate build to run right now is wesker with BBQ, Pain Res, Brutal Strength and Lethal Pursuer a strong build but could make it stronger by dropping lethal for pop most perks without both pop and pain res are like this and its silly making aura perks a choice to be effected by only exaserbates the issue.
and yes distortion is op but you know what my view on op is no point is arguing that point we have already done so people using who don't know when they need to do what they need to do are just more annoying that with other perks
Also, I wouldn't say that the aura reading perks are strictly weaker. Never having to search for a survivor is pretty strong and can probably compete with some regression picks, especially since it only really needs to compete with the fourth one down the list
It doesn't. Sometimes having 1 with 3 regression/blocking perks is better than a fourth but none are better.
Keeping bad gens up and good gen spread translates into downs, playing in weaker areas and less time burnt just crossing the map. Their are just so many things about the fundamentals of dbd that make regression perks the best perks in the game.sorry no more replies today England are on and its coming home.
The fact that I have the opinion perks are generally too strong at the top end (so are addons and items but eh) want almost all the top survivor and killer perks nerfed and brought back in line and I have seen people go "you want to nerf suv stuff" and even the person i have argued the point with for a few days now back and forth says "i can see how they see you as an entitled killer main" in actually kinda insane
You are putting considerably more effort into telling people that you have stated this than in actually stating it. You made two throw-away remarks in a thread in which you detailed all of the survivor stuff you want nerfed.
If you come in, guns blazing, shouting that [A], [B] and [C] MUST be nerfed and people should STOP defending such BROKEN things, and then mutter under your breath that you'd be okay if [D] and [E] got nerfed as well, people are going to infer where your priorities lie.
Which in and of itself is not that much of a problem, it's daily routine on these forums. But I find it ironic that you label someone else an 'entitled [role] main' when you exude the exact same aura.
Partially true
No, completely true.
its silly making aura perks a choice to be effected by only exaserbates the issue.
I don't think it's that silly, because these perks have powercrept beyond control. Not to mention that the issue works reversed, too. Lots of survivor perks that deal with stealth become irrelevant in the face of these aura reading perks. Think Iron Will, Lightfooted, Fixated, Self-Preservation, just to name a few. All of these are undone by aura reading and now effectively require Distortion to function with any kind of reliability. Which in turn might shunt them to gen-rush or hook-denial perks.
For once, survivors can use the same beatstick as killers: 'We can -also- make the game worse for everyone'.
Sometimes having 1 with 3 regression/blocking perks is better than a fourth
That's what I said.
Keeping bad gens up and good gen spread translates into downs
Though judging by how the forums are treating Distortion, how are you going to be able to find survivors if they're not permanently highlighted in neon red?
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744670#Comment_3744670
If your build is built around aura reading, one single perk actually just makes you perkless. What killer perk can do the same with whole survivor builds?
If your build is comprised of four aura reading perks
A) It'll still take four Distortions to actually disable them, not one.
B) You're going to burn through those Distortion tokens
and
C) You're not playing for keeps to begin with. Your meme build does not warrant nerfing Distortion.
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@Perrin3088 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743028#Comment_3743028
Bad math is bad.
40% escape rate means survivors average 40 wins per 100 attempts (25 matches) while killers get a 60% kill rate, so they'll average 60 kills in 25 matches, or 2.4 kills a match. 2 kills is a draw, 3 is a win, so in theory there is a 40% chance of a killer to win any given match.
Also, including the mess of afk and 8 hook killers, a 60% kill rate translates closer to 70-80%.
There's a reason I don't use toxic tactics, and often keep my music running as killer... it's so easy it's almost boring most matches.
killers get a 60% kill rate, so they'll average 60 kills in 25 matches, or 2.4 kills a match. 2 kills is a draw, 3 is a win, so in theory there is a 40% chance of a killer to win any given match.
It's my nemesis again!
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743996#Comment_3743996
People in glass houses…
This is not a people in glass houses statement because on my post about people defending op perks where I clearly stated a lot of killer perks I want to be nerfed they made this post
copy and paste directly
They could nerf all survivor perks until This Is Not Happening is the #1 perk and people would still come here calling it broken...They just are I know it's not nice to be blunt about it but almost anything this person says is from the "killers want to take my toys away camp" I'm sorry they are what they are they keep doing it and have been doing it for ages.
I know they are an ingrained part of the forums community but im not going to mince my words just because of that. Id say it a xxxMrbooger123xxx with 4 posts and it says it to someone with 20k posts, unlike a lot of players here who are very likely to call Mr. Booger what he is but not the otherway around.
Also NTH should be nerfed to be brought in line with the other aura perks but the power creep in this game does not apply to aura perk more than others because as the game has changed the "hide and seek" portion of the game has declined in relevance while the chasing side of the game has increased.
Distortion just resets things to the actual baseline.
It does not completely make's the perks it counters irrelevant without any real condition the killer has control over. It's like if languid touch or any exhaustion infliction perk did not have a requirement. It's overpowered and disproportionately effects killers running weaker builds because every aura perk is one slot thats not a slowdown. Its a bad perk its an overpowered perk (but you know my bar for where overpowered is)
I know this bridges into another thread but its also an example of that power creep point I made whereas things become more powerful what you bring and how good it is against the things the other side brings becomes more important
(as seen by how old ultimate weapon was not effected by distortion so it immediately became the best detection perk)This is not a people in glass houses statement because on my post about people defending op perks where I clearly stated a lot of killer perks I want to be nerfed they made this post
You are vehemently campaigning to have everything that still gets used by survivors, the statistically weaker role, nerfed.
Ostensibly for the sake of perk diversity, but you seem unwilling to entertain the idea of buffing the underpicked.
You accuse others of being 'entitled [Role] mains', and I'm just telling you that you fit the bill too.
but the power creep in this game does not apply to aura perk more than others
That's not relevant to Distortion though. Power creep in one facet of killer gameplay is not made okay by power creep in another facet of killer gameplay.
It does not completely make's the perks it counters irrelevant without any real condition the killer has control over.
This is also something that is often misunderstood. Distortion doesn't negate an aura reading perk by itself. One person having Distortion does not fully disable your NTH, FoR, UW or any other aura reading. It just protects one survivor.
You need four distortions to make these perks irrelevant.
It's like if languid touch or any exhaustion infliction perk did not have a requirement.
The aura perks that have pushed Distortion into viability don't exactly have stringent requirements themselves.
It's overpowered
That's an interesting take, considering most others are saying it causes more losses.
disproportionately effects killers running weaker builds
-Everything- disproportionately affects weaker killers running weaker builds, that's part and parcel of the term 'weaker'.
Also, I wouldn't say that the aura reading perks are strictly weaker. Never having to search for a survivor is pretty strong and can probably compete with some regression picks, especially since it only really needs to compete with the fourth one down the list.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743594#Comment_3743594
Nerf-creep has never made me not play a game (some people will have quit games when stuff they used got nerfed) but never have i left a game because "everything just got to weak"
I have. It's actually one of the main complaints about Helldivers 2.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740167#Comment_3740167
You are equating two different things to eachother
Useless teammates have existed since this game came out but players with distortion playing around the fact they can not be found and selling out their teammates have only existed since distortions rework I guarantee you based on the fact the OP typed.
Don't realize that SoloQ survivor is selfish even without the perk.
It's every man for themselves and the other players owe nothing to you.
When they use distortion they are using you to save their skin at the expense of yours.
I am going to be 100% honest even if you don't like it. Based on how you typed this you are, and I hate to type this you seem to be an "entitled survivor main" as much of a meme as that sentence is. This is as your main concern is something strong that should be nerfed on the survivor side players are talking about being nerfed and you say
it feels like every chapter release gives killers more and more ways to find survivors
when this is how chapter releases that add perks to the game work across the board.
There are more aura perks than 5 years ago along with regression perks, progression perks, exhaustion perks, gen blocking perks, anti-tunnel perks, unhook perks, on-hook perks, slugging perks, anti-slugging perks, pallet-based perks, chase perks and so on.
It only matters how good the best of these perks so when you say "it feels like" feels is doing a lot of lifting.
But don't take my word for it I may as well just a terrible killer player ranting so I went the the first big YouTuber I could think of (otzdarva's) tier list and looked at the killer perks he rated highly.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y9LOET2U5YY9/image.png
5 info perks made it above his third tier which is considered the "decent" tier one of which has heavily been nerfed since and one is not primarily used as an info perk but to protect totems leaving just 3 perks there and does nowhere to hide the only one left of 3 that was added past distortions rework justify its existence.
nope, it does not even generously throw you a bone in weave attunement which is just not good enough to be in this post it still doesn't.
So you are wrong and as much as people may not like the two-sidedness of posts they can't say that and then make posts like that that are just wrong but eloquently put but clearly dont understand the side of the game they are talking about then say
I find it's mostly killer mains trying to tell us solo survivors that we should want Distortion nerfed to punish the people who use it, but reality is that a Distortion nerf only benefits killers. And they know that. Like, please don't spit on me and tell me it's raining lol thanks.
when you don't give any thought to the other side of this game.
When they use distortion they are using you to save their skin at the expense of yours.
They don't need Distortion for that.
In fact, Distortion makes them -less- of a problem in that regard. Someone using this playstyle without Distortion will be stuck in a locker for most of the match. WITH Distortion, they may at least work on gens or heal someone, even if they don't take chases.
Based on how you typed this you are, and I hate to type this you seem to be an
"entitled survivor main"as much of a meme as that sentence is.People in glass houses…
when this is how chapter releases that add perks to the game work across the board.
Here's the thing you're missing: Aura perks have had a massive amount of power creep. Up until Floods of Rage, the primary aura reading perk in the game was BBQ & Chili. Now, BBQ & Chili has a very particular design element to it: It does not reveal survivors that are too close. The reason for this is because, as an intel perk, BBQ was supposed to direct the killer to where to look, not to find the survivors for them.
But that's gone out of the window now, with Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Ultimate Weapon all being built to not just give the killer an idea of where to look, but basically slap a neon sign on survivors with 'KILL ME NOW' written on it.
The perks are auto-piloting the 'seek' portion of 'hide and seek'. Which, in turn, also devalues a number of survivor perks that are oriented towards a stealth-based playstyle.
And if you want to grasp just how badly intel got powercreeped, the baseline presumption of 'Killers should have to look for survivors' essentially got swapped out for 'Killers should be able to read survivor auras on demand'.
Killers always knowing where survivors are hiding is the new baseline. Distortion bucks that trend, and thus Distortion becomes the problem for some reason.
As opposed to the multitude of perks that have effectively removed a component of gameplay.
'Well, a Distortion user is going to cause others to get tunnelled!'
But that argument already presumes the killer's perks allow them to infallibly find the other survivors. It normalises this. Nowhere to Hide, Ultimate Weapon, Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed, whatever other perks that do this: These aren't normal. And they're not supposed to be.
Distortion just resets things to the actual baseline.
Killers may not like it, but it's a case of a broken perspective that all the blame for the interaction between Distortion and aura reading gets placed on Distortion, when the aura reading perks themselves are a massive contributing factor.
None of these things would've been issues if intel perks had not progressed past BBQ & Chili.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743593#Comment_3743593
"If perk gets nerfed, I run 4 slowdowns"
Repeat this sentiment for the last five years and you have modern DBD.
4 slowdowns/tunnel/camp
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743460#Comment_3743460
You can't buff forever while leaving the strong stuff the same it is how you get powercreep.
for every up there has to be an equivalent down or after a while everything collapses when games will become even more about what you bring and what is good into what killer and so on.
say for example smash hit an earlier example of a perk that is good against some killers more than others, if you buff the effects to compete at the same level with sprint burst which is a very consistent perk the killers that is better against feel its more so than the killers than its worse against.
If too many of the average perks can't be buffed like this you kinda of have to start nerfing stuff and being unapologetic about it.
Make no mistake most of the stuff in this thread I've said should be nerfed I use but the only way possible to create perk variety is through nerfs
Conversely, you can get a downward spiral with nerf-creep. You nerf SB, Lithe takes over. You nerf Lithe, Balanced Landing takes over. You nerf BL, maybe you'll get Smash Hit. And then that will need to be nerfed.
'There will always be a Draco'.
It's all well and good to want all the survivor perks to be on a somewhat level field, and I agree with that. But considering the sorry state that survivor gameplay is in right now, stomping on the top is going to make the game worse overall, and it's not going to make any of the other perks start to function.
say for example smash hit an earlier example of a perk that is good against some killers more than others, if you buff the effects to compete at the same level with sprint burst which is a very consistent perk the killers that is better against feel its more so than the killers than its worse against.
I get your concern here, but that just means the devs need to get more creative with the way they intend to buff it. NOT nerf all alternatives. (And then subsequently nerfing Smash Hit because it is now in the position SB/Lithe was in)
the only way possible to create perk variety is through nerfs
That is objectively not true.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743438#Comment_3743438
I disagree because I feel the reason we don't see the variance is because of that gap, there are other factors I think that most players will aways run 1 exhaustion perk (because of the gap) but then they will put on a perk to punish tunnelling effectively leaving most of the player base with 2 real slots with completely free choices
On killer its the same with most players going
Find players perk
Slowdown
Choice
Choice
and I don't see a way to close that gap without bringing down the best perks, it doesn't need to be to smash hits level but their cant be perks doing everything and more than another perk can offer imo.
I disagree because I feel the reason we don't see the variance is because of that gap
But with any gap, there's two ways to close it. And just as an example: No amount of nerfs is going to make people pick up Red Herring.
There's a lot more you can achieve with buffs than nerfs in this area. Particularly on the survivor side.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743254#Comment_3743254
Its hard to use, its unreliable but it is useful if it came out at the start of this games lifespan and sprint burst was not in the game it would be used. something being outclassed doesn't mean it's not useful and there are plenty of perks like this but the top tier of the perk tier list has been allowed to run away and leave everything in the dust.
People are just used to perks, items and things in general having way too much influence in the game the general standard for perks at the top is too far above the mid-level perks.
I disagree. Perks are meant to create versatility and variance. While current perk design definitely leaves a lot to be desired, nerfing everything down to even just Smash Hit levels would make the game significantly more monotonous as you wouldn't see perks come into play much at all.
At which point the only variance would be on the killer side, as killers would still allow you to play a multitude of different matches.
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@PyramidFootLicker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743272#Comment_3743272
This just proves we need to nerf distortion tbh
I misread this as 'nerf general discussions' and I didn't even think that an unreasonable take.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743159#Comment_3743159
There are plenty of useful perks that are not broken in any way but they just can't compete.
Smash hit has a useful effect, but sprint burst exists.
Coup de Grace is a useful perk and it will give you hits you wouldn't otherwise get. But a perk that regresses a gen by 20% 4 times every game exists.
There are useful perks in this game and you will notice them help you when you use them but the gap between the perks at the very top and the middle is so big I don't think a perk being useful is enough to get anywhere near them.
Smash hit has a useful effect, but sprint burst exists.
This kind of illustrates really nicely what most folks' issue with your perspective is, though.
Sprint Burst isn't broken.
Smash HIt is just bad.
Yes, it grants an extra second of sprint, and has a shorter cooldown, but in exchange, there's a lot of killers it won't work against. The requirement of getting that pallet stun is a steep one that makes the perk way too hard to use and too unreliable in comparison to its competition.
If you want to fix that via nerfs, you'd have to nerf SB, Lithe, AND Balanced Landing out of viability.
At which point you're not all that likely to see more Smash Hit, as other perks may overtake exhaustion perks in their entirety, considering the entire class got nuked.
You're drawing a limited number of comparisons, and you're missing the bigger picture.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743062#Comment_3743062
I wasnt the one who made it up. A killer actually brought that into win rate argument..
N-no. No way. Really?
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@C3Tooth said:
And dont forget, its 40% escape rate. With 4 survivors, means they have 160% win rate, while killers have only 60%.
That made me cackle, thank you!
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@SleepyLunatic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742672#Comment_3742672
if we go by winrates to decide whats balanced etc, nurse and other stuff would need huge buffs.
Wish they'd just remove nurse so we can get rid of the 'but muh nurse' retort already...
High MMR 4-man swiffer, literally the most stacked survivor composition with no room for unskilled play, still doesn't hit 50% winrate.
Survivors are UP. Their tools aren't 'broken'.
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@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742645#Comment_3742645
Yes, they are the obviously 3 broken perks or types of perks Surviver have. The title of this thread was originally going to be "Stop defending obviously broken things." its why I mentioned harder killers being strong and easier killers being weak halfway into the post despite it being about perk but I decided to change it.
They are the "bingo card" because they are so clear of everything else in the survivor arsenal but broken stuff is fine by you because you use them.
You are the types of players the bottom of this post is aimed at.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742647#Comment_3742647
What's strong is strong you can try and say dark theory is op and that is your right. You would be wrong.
You are not a reality warper whats broken is broken and whats weak is weak.
What's strong is strong
Have you checked winrates, buddy? Because objectively, the stuff you're pointing out? Not broken.
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@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742277#Comment_3742277
15% is to much 5% doesn't make an impact what so ever
It's the difference between a 110 and a 115 killer, it's a pretty significant impact.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740165#Comment_3740165
I really hope that they don't actually think FOTD is too hard to counter bc the counterplay is literally just:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740429#Comment_3740429
FOTD doesn't really do an amazing job at countering pallets. Even if you're right next to the killer, the cooldown is so long the skeletons can fly over you and you can drop the pallet before the killer can get an M1 in.
The amount of times FOTD will actually get hits in is rare against anyone with knowledge against Vecna. It's only really good as a zoning tool, and even then if you time the crouch well then you really don't lose all that much distance.
FOTD doesn't really do an amazing job at countering pallets. Even if you're right next to the killer, the cooldown is so long the skeletons can fly over you and you can drop the pallet before the killer can get an M1 in.
But if you crouch, you can't vault, and if you drop the pallet, you can't crouch. Timed well, it's a lose/lose for the survivor.
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I like it as a concept to help killers against rampant hook-denial and bully squads. Just make a perk that charges with chase time and can only hold one complete charge at a time. That way, if the killer is struggling, it'll just give them a little boost every once in a while.
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739889#Comment_3739889
Exactly. Distortion only became a problem for killers once they started adding more powerful aura reading perks.
This is my main observation as well.
I don't think Distortion is a problem. I think the bigger issue is that we've had some insane powercreep in intel perks. Before Onryo, the best intel perk was BBQ & Chili, and that one specifically exempts survivors that are too close. It directs the killer, but doesn't outright lead them to the target.
Now we've got Lethal, Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement. Most of these provide stronger aura reading with more aggressive application. You could still hide from a BBQ if you played your cards right, because the perk specifically only allowed you to see distant survivors. You -can't- hide from Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Weave Attunement though. You can ONLY use Distortion.
The argument about Distortion causing Tunnelling is also a bit of a perception error. "If only one person doesn't have Distortion, I'm going to end up tunnelling them!" only applies if you have too much intel uptime on that one person, which is what is happening. If that last person gets a fair shot at hiding from the intel perks, you're in the clear.
One change I do think would be fair for Distortion, in part based on the Richard (Vecna) game Otz shows in the video, would be to have Distortion not activate while in chase. This would make I'm All Ears exempt (It's a different type of aura reading perk, serving a completely different function, so I think it's fair), and would prevent accidental aura reading procs from wiping scratch marks and thus breaking chase. (As that is the only reason Otz lost his mark and wound up finding someone else)
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Would be a great hook denial counter too.
Maybe give it a token, and allow it to gain more tokens with chase time. That way, the longer you take to get a down, the more likely you are to get to avoid any and all hook-denial attempts.
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@EmpireCity830 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738127#Comment_3738127
My point here was worded a bit wrong looking back at it. I meant that in terms of fun/enjoyment of the match just cause I got a 3 or 4k doesn't mean that the match was fun. (Kill rate doesn't really matter) Every game today (it feels like) is just a race to the finish. Survivors do nothing but sit on gens all day and killers have to do some tunneling/slugging etc. to keep up. It makes the match for both sides not as fun. I hate getting tunneled off hook when I barley had a chance to play the game, do gens, save people, occasionally have a good chase. For killer having 2 -3 hooks by the time 3 gens are done is really annoying cause now ur stressed out trying to generate pressure with only 2 gens to work with.
If this happened every now and then it would be fine but the fact that it is nearly every game for both sides makes the fun of a match not as fun as it was years ago. It makes perks really annoying too since everyone has to run the same stuff to keep up pace. I wish I could run some more silly perks or try new interesting builds but the pace of the game makes that impossible.
Unfortunately, I think step one is going to have to consist of tackling a problem that's roughly as old as DBD itself is: Tunnelling and camping. You can't extend games without mucking up the balance if those elements are still in play.
And as much as people have suggested slowing the game down by doing that, it's never gotten a lot of traction because generally, the community hates the idea of losing tunnelling and camping for some reason.
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@EmpireCity830 said:
I just feel like most games 4-5 gens are getting done. On killer it is really annoying by the time I have found, chased, downed and hooked 1 person 2 gens are done and a 3rd is 50%+. Or 3 gens are really close to being done. On solo-q is just as annoying. I hate getting found first, chased, downed and hooked in less than 2 min and spend most of my time on hook rather than doing gens and helping teammates. If this happened every now and then ok it's not a big deal but this is nearly every game for both cases. Makes this game really frustrating at times.
I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
The sad part is that idk what to do to fix it and make it so that every player has a chance to play the game and not feel super stressed out. Buffing either side too much would make play miserable for the other side.
Anyone have any ideas on what could be done to make the pace of play "balanced"?
Also, if there was some data on avg number of gens done and avg match time that would help. Cause I seriously feel like its 4.0 + for gens and time is less than 10 min per match.
I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
What... What exactly is the complaint here? 'I won, but survivors got close/had a chance'?
Do we want games to close out with 2+ gens left all the time?
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@Akeeno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737231#Comment_3737231
then dont comment without knowing things, it discredits you already
That awkward moment when Pulsar did actually address the video's content, proving he perfectly predicted the argument...
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Just a sidenote, but I am definitely not calling him Vecna now that it's been mistranslated as 'Rich'.
It's Richard from here on out.
Preferably in Hyacinth's voice.
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@Zaydin said:
Vecna is fine. People just aren't used to playing against him and haven't learned how to deal with his kit/addons.
Not stopping BHVR from hitting him with a knee jerk nerf just like they did with the Xeno and its tail strike.
BHVR is incredibly biased in survivors favor and bends over backwards to placate them.
BHVR is incredibly biased in survivors favor and bends over backwards to placate them.
Main survivor complaint hasn't been taken seriously in 8 years, no killer loses more than they win, new survivor perks average to no value or even negative value...
But one killer getting a slap on the wrist after hitting 70% kill rate is proof of 'incredible bias in favour of survivors'.
Peak DBD forums.
@Neaxolotl said:
It's really ridiculous to nerf him when community isn't even sure about their strategy against him, and it's not like BHVR is going to buff him afterwards just as quickly
He already got like ten buffs.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736110#Comment_3736110
Well, that might be because the stats don't agree with you. If Nightlight's anything to go by, he's got a 70% killrate, a whole 10 percentage points above the goal.
Most killers had high kill rate at release, not surprising.
Unknown had 70% on nightlight after release.
I thought you wanted more time to let players figure out how to play as and against the killer, suddenly nerf in first week is fine because of kill rate?
I'm not saying anything about that, just pointing out a possible reason the devs are aiming to nerf him. And overall, it doesn't look like Vecna's weak at all, and is in fact on the strong side.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736039#Comment_3736039
No, it would depend entirely on what the powers do. If every 40 seconds, you could lock all gens for 30 seconds, you wouldn't give a damn about losing movespeed for a second or dropping your bloodlust.
So there is no point talking about number, when effects and their impact is what matters. If impact is low, number doesn't mean anything.
But that's decidedly where we need more time to see where he falls
I would agree if there wasn't planned nerf already... Seems like devs don't agree with you.
So there is no point talking about number, when effects and their impact is what matters. If impact is low, number doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, but none of his powers are dead weights, so they should be considered as a whole kit.
I would agree if there wasn't planned nerf already... Seems like devs don't agree with you.
Well, that might be because the stats don't agree with you. If Nightlight's anything to go by, he's got a 70% killrate, a whole 10 percentage points above the goal. That's pretty extreme.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735748#Comment_3735748
And it'd synergise nicely with Dead Man's Switch.
That's an interesting idea how to make orb better...
You're going to have to explain this to me, because…
You tell me you can't use it outside of chase because of its inhibitive cooldown.
But you also don't use it in chase because it's not usable in chase. (So why would the cooldown limit out-of-chase usel?)
But you also can use it in chase because you can skip the hold W part, which is actually a big timesink in chases.
My point is you can use it for only one of those in reality, because of cooldown. So I don't think it's true statement that his map traversal is good.
And it's valid for chase, but still limited.
Don't take me wrong, I don't think Fly needs to change in major way, but I also don't think it is strong enough to carry Vecna'd power after Hand nerf.
No, because he's got -four- powers.
I can create 10 powers, but it doesn't matter if only thing those powers do is make me slower and lose bloodlust.
Like really, why orb has any slowdown?
If you take his kit apart and weigh each aspect individually, yeah, he's going to seem weak. But Vecna combines -all of them- into one kit. That whole kit is what you need to look at.
It's overall outcome you need to look at and outcome is not good in my opinion.
He has weak 1v1 and 1v4. That's not a good outcome.
Doesn't matter if he can somewhat do everything, when he is bad at everything.
My point is you can use it for only one of those in reality, because of cooldown.
But the cooldown is 40 seconds. So the only way these things intersect is if the chase is shorter than 40 seconds. And if you can consistently close chases in under 40 seconds, he's not exactly weak, is he?
I can create 10 powers, but it doesn't matter if only thing those powers do is make me slower and lose bloodlust.
No, it would depend entirely on what the powers do. If every 40 seconds, you could lock all gens for 30 seconds, you wouldn't give a damn about losing movespeed for a second or dropping your bloodlust.
It's overall outcome you need to look at and outcome is not good in my opinion.
But that's decidedly where we need more time to see where he falls. Currently, his kill rate is astronomical, and that'll undoubtedly also have to do with people having to learn to counterplay him, but I would -not- be surprised if he sticks at a high rating.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735369#Comment_3735369
And that's only one survivor that can have this benefit.
How so? One item can't spawned multiple times?
It'll still push them off the gen for a bit,
Orb got faster, so not really. I would guess like 6-7 seconds?
Isn't it 40 seconds? If you close out your chase within 40 seconds, you're winning anyway. Why do you care about the cooldown in that case?
That's why I can't use it for map traversal and in chase it usually only works on survivors, who don't expect it and get into dead zone.
Best use is after you injure survivor, but it definitely doesn't guarantee down, not even close. You just skip hold W part.
You're not supposed to be good at any of the things you do because he gets ALL of them at the same time.
That would work if he was at least average at one of those, but he is not even that.
Closest thing I can find to Jack of All Trades is Skull merchant and she at least has one of best stealth mechanics.
Vecna is not even close to being best at any aspect.
How so? One item can't spawned multiple times?
Can it?
Orb got faster, so not really. I would guess like 6-7 seconds?
That's still 6-7 seconds more than most killers would get. And it'd synergise nicely with Dead Man's Switch.
That's why I can't use it for map traversal and in chase it usually only works on survivors, who don't expect it and get into dead zone.
Best use is after you injure survivor, but it definitely doesn't guarantee down, not even close. You just skip hold W part.You're going to have to explain this to me, because…
- You tell me you can't use it outside of chase because of its inhibitive cooldown.
- But you also don't use it in chase because it's not usable in chase. (So why would the cooldown limit out-of-chase usel?)
- But you also can use it in chase because you can skip the hold W part, which is actually a big timesink in chases.
Your argumentation here is a bit all over the place.
That would work if he was at least average at one of those, but he is not even that.
No, because he's got -four- powers.
This is the bruiser conundrum all over again. If you make kits that are this wide, and you have to balance them, the natural consequence is that, the wider the kit gets, the worse every aspect of it has to be. If you have a character that straddles four roles, then each of those roles can only operate at 25%. If they were all average, 50%, then you'd end up with a killer whose kit totals at 200%.
If you take his kit apart and weigh each aspect individually, yeah, he's going to seem weak. But Vecna combines -all of them- into one kit. That whole kit is what you need to look at. Not just his performance in chase, because then you're dismissing part of his kit.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735200#Comment_3735200
You don't have to check up on multiple gens if you can just send out an orb to check one for you
This doesn't work, if survivors got item to see the orb. You basically get false information and let survivors finish the gen for free.
You don't have to spend a long time moving from one end of the map to the other if you have flight
It's not that effective for map traversal. It's just more effective to keep it for chase, because cooldown are still high.
There's stuff happening between and outside chases too that you seem to consider entirely irrelevant.
It is relevant, you have killers with bad 1v1, but good 1v4. Like Legion, Ghost face, Hag etc.
But I don't think Vecna is good at neither 1v1, or 1v4. His map traversal is not that much better to any other M1 killer.
He is not good at spreading hits, because of his cooldowns and need to be close to a survivor for his power to do anything. You are not able to get long range hits, or get them fast on multiple survivors.This doesn't work, if survivors got item to see the orb. You basically get false information and let survivors finish the gen for free.
It'll still push them off the gen for a bit, because the item doesn't immunise them from it. And that's only one survivor that can have this benefit.
It's not that effective for map traversal. It's just more effective to keep it for chase, because cooldown are still high.
Isn't it 40 seconds? If you close out your chase within 40 seconds, you're winning anyway. Why do you care about the cooldown in that case?
But I don't think Vecna is good at neither 1v1, or 1v4. His map traversal is not that much better to any other M1 killer.
He is not good at spreading hits, because of his cooldowns and need to be close to a survivor for his power to do anything. You are not able to get long range hits, or get them fast on multiple survivors.You're not supposed to be good at any of the things you do because he gets ALL of them at the same time. A wide kit is never going to excel in any of its facets, otherwise you'd just get powercreeped.
@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735200#Comment_3735200
A poster above me already explained things so there's little to add here other than remind you that these 3 supports spells also have long cooldown and often players use them just because they are available. Yes it's nice that you can throw an orb towards a nearby gen but if you do go towards that gen then why use orb there? It makes more sense to throw orb towards other gen for scouting. Fly is a standard traversal, but you won't use it if there's nothing to defend nearby or you aren't sure if there's a survivor nearby. Flight of the Damned is still horrible but at least you can try to use it from distance and behind the wall and maybe it will hit someone. I personally would give Flight of the Damned Killer Instinct, at least that would make the spell somewhat reliable.
Hand of Mage is his staple power. If you've seen killer use it then you know that for the next 38 seconds ( unless there are addons involved ) this killer can't do anything to you if you are near the pallet. Play around it and you'll see what options does Vecna have when his main power is in CD.
there's little to add here other than remind you that these 3 supports spells also have long cooldown and often players use them just because they are available
If you can't stop yourself from spamming spells off-cooldown, even in situations where this would not be helpful, then that is as clear an example as you could make of 'it's not the character, it's the player'.
Yes it's nice that you can throw an orb towards a nearby gen but if you do go towards that gen then why use orb there?
That's what I was talking about. Or are you trying to argue that sphere is bad because you can use it in an inefficient way?
Fly is a standard traversal, but you won't use it if there's nothing to defend nearby or you aren't sure if there's a survivor nearby.
Are you trying to argue that Fly is bad map traversal because it's not useful for going to places where you don't want to go?
Flight of the Damned is still horrible but at least you can try to use it from distance and behind the wall and maybe it will hit someone. I personally would give Flight of the Damned Killer Instinct, at least that would make the spell somewhat reliable.
Flight of the Damned is probably his weakest ability, but I can imagine that more skilled players can use it to be properly disruptive in chase.
Hand of Mage is his staple power. If you've seen killer use it then you know that for the next 38 seconds ( unless there are addons involved ) this killer can't do anything to you if you are near the pallet. Play around it and you'll see what options does Vecna have when his main power is in CD.
Then you just play the chase as normal and benefit from the rest of your kit when the time comes to use them. Be tactical about the way you use those abilities.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734790#Comment_3734790
In the game where gen defense has been nerfed, killer has to make chases short. Killers who can't do that might as well run from one corner of the map to another for 4 or 5 minutes for fun and move to the next until they get matches with potato opponents.
Vecna cuts his chases short mostly because of Hand of Mage, not Fly, Flight of the Damned or Channeling Orb. I'll tell you more - you won't suffer much if you only play with Hand of Mage without using other spells while if you use only 3 remaining spells but never Hand of Mage you will have to put much more effort against decent opponents.
This means those 3 ''support'' spells as they are don't decide the outcome of the game much. Sure they can be used for scouting / traversing but in reality it's one spell that allows Vecna do the job, which is getting downs and hooks asap.
This means those 3 ''support'' spells as they are don't decide the outcome of the game much.
See, that's the part I just don't buy.
Sure, it's better to close chases fast. But there's idle time between chases too, and Vecna's support spells deal with that. You don't have to check up on multiple gens if you can just send out an orb to check one for you. You don't have to spend a long time moving from one end of the map to the other if you have flight. In a game of five or six chases alone, this can easily add up to over a minute of time saved.
A short chase isn't the only way to be efficient. There's stuff happening between and outside chases too that you seem to consider entirely irrelevant.
Even Fly has its in-chase use, allowing you to quickly close the gap created by the on-hit sprint. Which you also disregard.
The more you insist that ONLY his in-chase, immediate, hit-securing power matters, the more it comes off as you not understanding the killer.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734801#Comment_3734801
Killers complained about those perks but definitely far less compared Pain Res and Pop. Most survivors complained about Pain Res and Pop while some killers complained about BG Player and Buckle Up. The scale of the complaints aren't the same.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734802#Comment_3734802
But these metas weren't as aggressively ingrained as PainRes/Pop, and killers weren't crutching on them as hard as this.
You actually have 0 idea what you are talking about. Original Hex Ruin was by far the most ingrained meta and practically every killer needed to run it because every other perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger (gen rushing is much weaker now due to nerfs). I can't find the original source but there were stats showing that Hex Ruin was used by 80% of killers, far more than Pain Res (40%).
I believe it's the complete opposite of what you said. In terms of meta popularity and regression perk dependency, I would rank them in the same order I listed them:
- Hex Ruin
- Hex Ruin + Undying + Tinkerer
- Eruption + CoB + Overcharge
- Pain Res + DMS
- Pain Res + Pop
The reason for this is that in 2019 almost every perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger. As the years progressed, more useful perks were added and gen rushing got nerfed, making it less important to run gen regression perks.
That's still Clown though. That doesn't change much. And you'd have to do this for all the winstreaks that people have been running on a wide variety of killers. Including, actually, Onryo specifically, who has a 409 winstreak logged. Even Freddy's got a 50 from Otzdarva.
The point is that these killers are called 'weak', yet are still able to produce results that, in any other PvP setting, would be considered 'broken beyond belief'. Clearly some people are able to play these killers to phenomenal result, but because other individuals aren't good with them, any statistic that doesn't match their personal experience with said killer is considered 'clearly invalid'.
No matter how many winstreaks show up, no matter what way the statistics go, there's always personal anecdata that is being elevated above anything observable, always to the same conclusion: Killers UP.
When people call a killer weak, they are talking about the killer overall. They aren't talking about that one specific build required to make the killer strong, especially if an Iri addon is required. Sadako is another good example. She was widely considered as one of the worst killers in her original version, but people acknowledged that her Condemn build (Tape + Ring Drawing) made her strong. For example, Otz rated her as the 3rd worst killer but acknowledged her Tape addon made her far stronger.
Original Hex Ruin was by far the most ingrained meta and practically every killer needed to run it because every other perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger
Firstly, that's not the Ruin I am talking about. I wasn't there for that meta. I joined around the release of the Blight, shortly after DS got its conspic action nerf, and predicting the killer's perk load-out always felt like a shot in the dark. The only thing you could reasonably estimate is that if the killer was playing terribly, there would be a NOED.
Secondly, there's a marked difference between a meta coming into existence because alternatives are terrible, and a meta coming into existence in spite of other options.
It's why Windows of Opportunity is not a problematic high pick rate, but PainRes/Pop is.
As the years progressed, more useful perks were added and gen rushing got nerfed, making it less important to run gen regression perks.
But at some point, despite killers getting more and stronger alternatives, the trend has reversed somehow and now gen regression perks are somehow 'more important than ever'. That's the issue.
Ruin getting a high pickrate among a wasteland of useless perks is different from PainRes/Pop dominating a meta that has a lot of strong alternatives.
It's like Helldivers 2 nerfs, versus Warframe nerfs.
When people call a killer weak, they are talking about the killer overall. They aren't talking about that one specific build required to make the killer strong, especially if an Iri addon is required. Sadako is another good example. She was widely considered as one of the worst killers in her original version, but people acknowledged that her Condemn build (Tape + Ring Drawing) made her strong. For example, Otz rated her as the 3rd worst killer but acknowledged her Tape addon made her far stronger.
That really doesn't make much of a difference in regards to how strong a killer is. I'm fine with moving the discussion towards the awkward place that add-ons and items produce for the game's balance, but clearly, the killers aren't weak if they're able to string together massive win-chains.
And even then, the original point was that the statistics shown were allegedly unreliable because the killers were supposed to be weaker than their kill/winrates would indicate, but if those kill/winrates are perfectly attainable, how are the statistics unreliable?
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732825#Comment_3732825
We've had metas before PainRes-Pop where this wasn't an issue.
Such as? I'm fairly sure every meta since the original Hex Ruin has been gen regression, and killers complained about every nerf. The metas were:
- Hex Ruin
- Hex Ruin + Undying + Tinkerer
- Eruption + CoB + Overcharge
- Pain Res + DMS
- Pain Res + Pop
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732925#Comment_3732925
win-streaks was on a clown, for example. Another one on Twins, both killers that were written off by the forum community as being garbage tier.
The Clown winstreak was performed with Redhead's Pinkie Finger, which completely changes the killer to an instant down killer. The streak would have been far less without it.
Twins was not considered weak. Many tier lists placed her in A or B tier. People just didn't play her because she was unfun and clunky.
Such as? I'm fairly sure every meta since the original Hex Ruin has been gen regression, and killers complained about every nerf. The metas were:
But these metas weren't as aggressively ingrained as PainRes/Pop, and killers weren't crutching on them as hard as this.
The Clown winstreak was performed with Redhead's Pinkie Finger, which completely changes the killer to an instant down killer. The streak would have been far less without it.
That's still Clown though. That doesn't change much. And you'd have to do this for all the winstreaks that people have been running on a wide variety of killers. Including, actually, Onryo specifically, who has a 409 winstreak logged. Even Freddy's got a 50 from Otzdarva.
The point is that these killers are called 'weak', yet are still able to produce results that, in any other PvP setting, would be considered 'broken beyond belief'. Clearly some people are able to play these killers to phenomenal result, but because other individuals aren't good with them, any statistic that doesn't match their personal experience with said killer is considered 'clearly invalid'.
No matter how many winstreaks show up, no matter what way the statistics go, there's always personal anecdata that is being elevated above anything observable, always to the same conclusion: Killers UP.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734440#Comment_3734440
Give Vecna 20 abilities to detect and relocate wherever he wants, but if none actually help with getting hits and downs, then you still have a glorified M1 killer.
Vecna already has slowdown to every ability which prevents him from snowballing around. Survivors can get items on top of that and render Vecna's abilities even less useful.
I suggest you try playing at least one match against decent survivors without using a Hand of Mage. Do that and then tell us how useful his other kits are to you with their current cooldown and effects.
Give Vecna 20 abilities to detect and relocate wherever he wants, but if none actually help with getting hits and downs, then you still have a glorified M1 killer.
And that doesn't matter one bit if he's still strong. You're completely hung up on dismissing every part of his kit that isn't just in-chase potential, when he already has that, AND he has other stuff supporting him outside chase.
It doesn't matter if it's an M1 killer if the stuff outside of chase compensates for that. The stuff he has outside chase still helps him, quite extensively in one case. But then he pairs that with solid in-chase power. Most folks here have been saying they've been doing really well with him, so really, what the complaint boils down to isn't that he's weak.
It's just that he's not breaking chases on top of being really strong.
@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734440#Comment_3734440
Vecna doesn't just come with "a counter" for each of his (weak) powers; he comes with multiple.
Flight of the Damned:
- Dodgeable by crouching
- Dodgeable by standing in between
- Dodgeable by running up to Vecna
- Audio cue (to know when to dodge)
- Magic item that shows its aura (to know when to dodge)
Mage Hand:
- Susceptible to holding W
- Re-drop a pallet that's been lifted up
- Magic item that gives the survivor haste, completely nullifying the purpose of the power
- Magic item that shows the survivor which pallet is blocked
- Keep looping normally (lol)
Fly:
- Making sudden and tight changes of direction
- Magic item that shows the aura of the killer, revealing their location map-wide
Dispelling Sphere:
- Magic item that shows you the sphere, completely making it useless (and giving you info on where Vecna is)
Despite all of this, you will be able to pubstomp with Vecna simply because of how Solo Q is. But when facing a team of competent survivors (they don't even have to be in SWF), they will punish you and counter your abilities. In this scenario, Vecna's only strength comes from the guaranteed hits, one being Mage Hand to lift up a pallet as soon as it's dropped (which is getting nerfed soon anyway), and the other is using Flight of the Damned when a survivor is running to a vault. That's about the extent of Vecna's abilities when it comes down to good survivors.
Now, to all the counters I listed above, add the fact that each of those powers has a 40-second cooldown. This means that unless you use them in guaranteed hit scenarios, you will be punished for missing. If you go for a risky shot of Flight of the Damned in a chase, a good survivor will punish it, and you won't be able to try another shot again for the next 40 seconds. This makes playing Vecna against good survivors awful and boring since you can't take risks without having to drop chase or extending it for 40 seconds. This is simply, weak killer design.
Flight of the Damned:You listed one counter five times. And as others have mentioned, this isn't always a counter as it can still trip the survivor up.
Mage Hand:How is it susceptible to holding W? Redropping and continuing the loop is not a counter, that's Vecna using the power poorly. The magic item that gives haste is the actual counter, knowing which pallet is blocked is overall useless.
Making sudden and tight changes of direction
Does not negate the distance covered in any way.
Magic item that shows the aura of the killer, revealing their location map-wide
Does not negate the distance covered.
Magic item that shows you the sphere, completely making it useless (and giving you info on where Vecna is)
Unless you can perfectly communicate it to the other survivors, it doesn't make it useless, it just makes it work worse against -you-. And even then, you could get zoned by it.
In this scenario, Vecna's only strength comes from the guaranteed hits, one being Mage Hand to lift up a pallet as soon as it's dropped (which is getting nerfed soon anyway), and the other is using Flight of the Damned when a survivor is running to a vault.
Again, plus the map traversal of Fly, and the intel of Sphere. Y'all seem to be intent on chopping this kit up, looking at each piece individually, taking specific scenarios and then saying 'Worthless' to the guy as a whole. Dude's waaaaay more complex than that and may well be the most complex killer in the game. He's getting written off because he can't instawin chases or loops without looking at the totality of his kit.
That doesn't make him bad. It makes him a macro-oriented killer. That may not be your cup of tea, or a good fit for your playstyle, but it's nothing to do with how strong he is.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734199#Comment_3734199
Why you assume that I struggle getting down? Because I say competent survivors have many ways of countering this killer?
Regardless, a nerf to his main tool has already being announced. Just as expected. Lets see how well will this killer perform when his most efficient weapon is nerfed down.
Why you assume that I struggle getting down?
Because that is what you bring up as a counter-argument when I point out that Vecna's kit is wider than just his in-chase potential.
Because I say competent survivors have many ways of countering this killer?
That's a natural consequence of Vecna's kit being so multi-faceted. The more stuff a killer does, the more interactions survivors have with their kit, which in turn, inevitably, means more counters. This doesn't mean the killer's weak though. A killer with 15 abilities and a counter for each of those abilities, bar one, is stronger than a killer with three abilities with a counter for each of those. Even though the former has more counters.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734210#Comment_3734210
Not that I disagree with you about killer perks being good overall, but there are killer perks that are detrimental to you. The biggest example is Predator, which actively makes tracking over any real distance much harder.
There also aren't that many actively detrimental survivor perks. Maybe No Mither if you don't have some kind of plan or build for it? Fact is, either way on that specific example, most survivor perks are perfectly usable. The same notion of the top few perks skewing everyone's perception of useful applies there too.
Yeah, I suppose Predator could be counted.
On the survivor side: Autodidact, Potential Energy, Weaving Spiders, No Mither, Deadline.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733820#Comment_3733820
because big majority of the killer perks have no effectiveness. gen speed is still ultra oppressive.
There's a number of perks in the game that are detrimental to the user.
All of them are survivor perks.
There's hardly any killer perks that have 'no effectiveness'. Their average is leagues above the average for survivor perks. It's just that Pain Res/Pop has set an unhealthy standard to the point where people don't consider any other perks anymore.
Basically, if it doesn't auto-win you the game, it 'has no effectiveness'.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733883#Comment_3733883
Your chase potential decides whenever everything else you do has any meaning. If you can detect everyone or be everywhere at anytime but can't get anyone downed then it doesn't matter how powerful you may think you are on the paper. Everything else simply doesn't matter.
Oh and it appears his Mage Hand will get a nerf much sooner than expected. That was fast already. Guess a hype was high enough and enough people bought him already.
Your chase potential decides whenever everything else you do has any meaning. If you can detect everyone or be everywhere at anytime but can't get anyone downed then it doesn't matter how powerful you may think you are on the paper. Everything else simply doesn't matter.
First off, you ALSO have chase potential, on top of everything else. He has an incredibly wide kit, you can't expect him to be king of one, and good at a bunch of others.
Secondly, and I don't know how to put this politely, but… If you are struggling -that- badly to get a down, it's not a character problem. It's a you problem.
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@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734001#Comment_3734001
What? If Nurse were released today, most players with time spent in the game would immediately realize her potential and place her at the top of the tier list on day one, lol. It's not hard to gauge a killer's potential in the first few days, which is the point of my entire post. You completely ignored my arguments about the design choices I critiqued and instead jumped to kills per match, as if that indicates how strong a killer is.
What else do you want to base it on, exactly?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733791#Comment_3733791
Not really. The usages I listed pretty much describe what Vecna's toolset is. He has 3 spells that have a rather simple yet not always effective use and 1 spell that allows him to do the damage. He is one step away from becoming one of the most weakest killers and that step shall be done by developers when the time comes. He simply has nothing else special about him.
Not really. The usages I listed pretty much describe what Vecna's toolset is.
Again: In chase.
Chasing is not the only thing you do as killer. If every single one of his spells was able to secure hits, you'd have an S+++ killer on your hands.
You may want that, but no one else does.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733698#Comment_3733698
Oh yes, you mentioned the only things these abilities do outside of chase. You don't use orb mid-chase because you don't need the information, you know your target is in front of you. Fly of the Damned may deny a window / vault in 1 out of 10 situations or force survivor crouch but the slow down you get even now makes it not worth using. Flight is 50 50 and requires a very specific scenario to happen if you want any real value out of it mid chase. It's still a traversal tool.
Vecna's only reliable tool is Mage Hand. It's a fact. Everything else has secondary effects but slowdowns they cause might cost the entire chase.
Vecna's only reliable tool is Mage Hand. It's a fact.
Vecna's only reliable CHASE tool is Mage Hand. Everything in his kit is plenty useful, just not in chase.
The tools aren't weak, you're just using them wrong.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733368#Comment_3733368
What use is the Orb to you mid-chase? Or Flight of the Damned that never hits and can be dodged either by running straight or crouching for a single second? Or maybe the glorified fly ability that can be countered by going backwards if there is a window or towards nearest pallet?
He gets hits and downs right now because he can pick a pallet mid-chase so quickly that survivors can't gain distance. Should they nerf this ability he will become another pub-stomper that has nothing to offer against slightly organized or competent survivors.
Do you think an ability is only good if it allows you to cut chases short? The orb is great for intel. Flight can still stutter survivors. Fly is excellent map mobility.
Not every tool needs to guarantee hits. Especially not in a kit with four of them.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732849#Comment_3732849
You really do think that the statistics that stated that killers like Freddy and Sadako had 60%+ kill rates are legit and these killers are on good spot and probably need to be nerfed too, right? It's exactly the type of statistics that devs present, griefers, trolls and chill people who only inflate kill rates are not excluded from the final numbers.
That's is like saying killers are natively stronger than survivors because they can kill them. Well, yeah, what you do expect them to do?
It's exactly the type of statistics that devs present, griefers, trolls and chill people who only inflate kill rates are not excluded from the final numbers.
But this is not a one-way thing. Killers that throw are also not excluded from the stats. And yeah, Freddy and Sadako will likely have had high kill rates because the only people playing them know them intricately and know how to make the most of them. One of the highest win-streaks was on a clown, for example. Another one on Twins, both killers that were written off by the forum community as being garbage tier.
Again, you're just presenting guesstimations from personal anecdata as a hard counter to what is statistically shown. That's not to say there's no outliers and statistical anomalies, but on the whole, killers are the stronger role at the moment. Yes, even against high MMR swiffers.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732825#Comment_3732825
So it's widely assumed that since High MMR games end with high kill rates then everything is fine, right? Apparently it's impossible for neither High MMR games nor 4 man SWF teams have a griefer, chill or inexperienced player.
I mean, what do you want? There's high kill rates -everywhere-, including in the one area that should realistically be the most stable, and you want to cry about killers being weak because of an unsubstantiated theory that's supported by NO stats whatsoever. I mean, we could just buff killers over and over because a handful of killer mains on the forums -feel- that the game's unfair, but we're gonna end up with 80%+ killrates and the forums flooded with topics about how unfair it is that survivors sometimes escape.
Unless you have proper grounds to discredit the statistics BHVR presented, the ONLY thing we have to go on IS indeed indicating that killers are overperforming across all ranks. You want to challenge that, come out with better.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732805#Comment_3732805
Killers need means to slowdown because they can't have all 4 survivors away from gens. Devs want to promote chase play but instead of buffing chase perks they nerf gen defense. Best logic ever.
Killers ''win'' so often because the situation with survivors dying on the first hook intentionally still hasn't been resolved. The kill rates for many pub-stomper killers remains high exactly because some people do die at 5 gens on purpose which then often results into 3 or 4 man death on survivor side since 1v3 at 5 gens is not a simple task for SoloQ randoms.
Killers need means to slowdown because they can't have all 4 survivors away from gens. Devs want to promote chase play but instead of buffing chase perks they nerf gen defense. Best logic ever.
We've had metas before PainRes-Pop where this wasn't an issue. Why is it an issue now? Even so, if you want to argue that the nerfing of PainRes-Pop is going to drop killer win-chances across the board, the only way that can be is if PainRes-Pop are objectively the most effective way to play. And with killers overperforming, that means the nerfs are perfectly justified, both on the subject of balance between factions and between killer perks.
Killers ''win'' so often because the situation with survivors dying on the first hook intentionally still hasn't been resolved. The kill rates for many pub-stomper killers remains high exactly because some people do die at 5 gens on purpose which then often results into 3 or 4 man death on survivor side since 1v3 at 5 gens is not a simple task for SoloQ randoms.
Except the kill rates are consistently high across the MMR levels. Even in high MMR, which you can't get to with quitter attitude, killers perform really, really well. And as Pulsar points out, 4-man high MMR SWF, which logically should not have -any- quitter activity, still won't hit 50% escape rate.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732797#Comment_3732797
Please tell me how will killer players will play now when perks that gave them more chances to win in the game got nerfed?
Or do you by chance think killer players were in such a good spot that they needed these nerfs? I'd like to remind you kindly that not every killer player plays only Nurse, Blight or Spirit.
Please tell me how will killer players will play now when perks that gave them more chances to win in the game got nerfed?
Does this only work for killers, or do survivors also get to throw a tantrum when, for instance, Made for This got nerfed?
Or do you by chance killer players were in such a good spot that they needed these nerfs? I'd like to remind you kindly that not every killer player plays only Nurse, Blight or Spirit.
Considering the stats point out that killers win far more than they lose, yeah, they kinda are in a really good spot. And no, that's not just Nurse, Blight and Spirit.
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It's the universe shouting in BHVR's face that they should not have frickin' touched it after putting it back to 5 seconds.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732130#Comment_3732130
Sure, but they should not be locked behind perks.
Alternative objectives in general could change up the gameplay for the better.
I understand OP in the sense that 5min games are awful regardless of what role is played.
I want to play the game. If my time to reach the match is longer than the match itself, then we have a big problem.
Why? Because then the "game" consists more of lobby and loading screens than actual gameplay.
Oh, sure, not perk-bound, but the concept of these alternative mini-wins is really healthy for the game, IMO.