Firellius
Firellius
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645570#Comment_3645570
Ma man literally suggested losing the game just to comply survivor's rulebook, even if my plans weren't to tunnel at all. That's why I don't waste time arguing with you at all. Absolutely every statement you made is ridiculously absurd. I'm reading "I miss the days when the survivors were God mode" in every word from you.
What do you mean 'losing the game'? Where did I say that?
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645569#Comment_3645569
Nope. Not at all. That's what they should do, just like a killer should be allowed to defend a 3-gen. But it was decided a killer defending a 3-gen isn't "playing normally". With that in mind, survivors constantly running away from their objective isn't "playing normally" either. The nerf should be applied to both sides instead of strongly benefiting one at the cost to the other, especially since both sides can be responsible for creating the situation.
Except the killer's objective is 'kill the survivors'. And the survivors' objective is 'survive'.
The killer was never meant to be a gen-defense bot, and the survivors have no obligation to just sit on a gen until the killer gets a free hit in or two.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645495#Comment_3645495
So when I see a survivor using any of the perks, i should ignore him, just because I've already hooked him, and go look for others? Did I understand you correctly?
If you're genuinely that concerned about not wanting to tunnel: Yes. It's what I do. Down 'em if you have to and leave 'em lying around to keep the pressure up, but if you don't want to tunnel you really, really, really don't have to.
Don't blame your aura reading perks.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645351#Comment_3645351
that is not how math works...
It isn't, because in DBD, 100+100=170, so it'd be 26.5 seconds, just about.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644971#Comment_3644971
BHVR said the gap is primarily due to the fact that solo q doesn't necessarily work together as much as SWF. Perks that encourage survivors to not work together, are therefore a problem. And yes, there are enough Distortion users that are playing "lone wolf", that it's a problem. Other lone wolf perks, like Calm Spirit, Sole Survivor, and Wake Up, should also be nerfed.
And yes, people can still hide without those perks. The goal isn't to completely remove hiding from the game. It's just to nerf or rework the perks that are encouraging or rewarding survivors for playing lone wolf strategies.
And yes, when a survivor excessively hides, and refuses to help with chases, that's lone wolf. And it doesn't matter if they are repairing generators, or occasionally unhooking a survivor when they think it's absolutely safe to do so. They're still sangbagging their team, and hurting their team's overall chances of survival.
And this is why I don't like this thread.
Every 'I just want to help survivors' thread, with a little bit of digging just turns into 'nerf, nerf, nerf'.
Hey Coffee, how about this one: Instead of ditching Distortion, how about we ditch all the aura reading so the killer can't get non-distortion users singled out?
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25% of 90 is 22.5 seconds, not 15.
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I think there's some truth to this. The macrogame is really tricky to learn, and I do think that a lot of killers wind up cutting corners on that by tunnelling. It also feels like killer complaints about balance increased since the DS nerf, despite several heavy-handed survivor nerfs.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644754#Comment_3644754
I don't think a perk behind a pay wall is the solution. It's a start, but not a good start. A base mechanic would be much better.
Basekit 3s DS, with the perk bumping it up to 6s?
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644691#Comment_3644691
Survivors already have basekit BT to prevent being tunnel straight off unhook. There's not really more than can be done for survivors, because the survivor is the 4 man team and the killers main objective is to kill them.
We could get DS back on 5 seconds, for a start...
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@Coffeecrashing said:
BHVR said the biggest gap between solo q and SWF is the players, and the fact that solo q might not work together as much. Distortion therefore should be nerfed, because it encourages a lone wolf playstyle, where the player has already decided to play selfishly, even before the game has even started.
Does everyone remember that Eruption was nerfed, because some people were using it to make extended 3-gen games? It didn't matter that "not all killers" were doing this. Likewise, it doesn't matter if "not all survivors" are playing selfishly when they equip Distortion. BHVR should continue to close the gap between solo q and SWF, and should focus on perks that encourage anti-teamwork.
Does everyone remember that Eruption was nerfed, because some people were using it to make extended 3-gen games?
I don't.
I remember it being nerfed because being unable to do -anything- for half a minute was a really dumb idea.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644508#Comment_3644508
Distortion could be the pure cause or a symptom. Either way usually people with distortion can and will usually hide when they hear a TR making the killer have to spend even more time to find them. That time WILL add up leading to some to tunnel or camp.
And you think they won't tunnel if the tunnel target is on a gen while another person is hiding out in the middle of nowhere?
Again, your issue is with the survivor refusing to engage with the game, not Distortion.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644536#Comment_3644536
Meanwhile wraiths over here. "What you got wraith? I had to run 2 addons and a aura reveal perk and still couldnt see kate"
Wraith:"foolish clown. For i have all seeing blood. She never replenishes her stacks Because im always cloaked and ill shred them in the first 2 chases against her. Distortion? HA"
I mean i guess its a way to tell survivors their distortion isnt infallible against all killers i guess. Just sucks normal m1 killers get punished so much more than others when it comes to just running a simple aura reveal combo.
Yep, different perks have different interactions with different killers.
If you think that's bad, try Autodidact against a Plague.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644508#Comment_3644508
Like i posted earlier today i had a mindgame clown build using both the aura read addons and im-all-ears. Not a sweaty build just going for some fun mindgames with invigoration and bottles. Chased a kate. Never saw her aura the whole game because clown has a 32 meter tr and both addons cap out at 16 meters for 6 seconds at most. Meanwhile her perk would be constantly activating nullifying 3 of my things. Then proceeds to remove her scratch marks as well allowing her to instead mindgame me continously. If stakeout and pebble cant charge in chase because "they are stealth perks" what makes distortion different? So then the counterplay becomes "run stealth and even more aura reveal so you can shred the stacks" maybe i just wanna run a singular addon and actually get value out of it in a game?
You do get value out of it.
Just not against a character that dropped a perk slot to specifically counteract that thing. There'll be three other survivors it'll still work on just fine.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644333#Comment_3644333
Thats not the point of the post. Its the lack of macro (in this situation just having free stealth) from the survivors that end up leading to situations where the killer tunnels or camps. Same could be said for people who exhaustion to main buildings or just going to some super safe part of the map.
Except in that case, why is Distortion being singled out as the problem?
If the survivor they're looking for is participating normally in the game flow, why can't the killer find them? And if they're not participating in the game flow, what's to stop that survivor from just sitting in a locker all game?
Why is it distortion that creates this issue, and not the aura reading removing all effort on the part of the killer?
Is it that the killer couldn't find them, or couldn't be bothered to?
Remember back in the day when BBQ & Chili was an extremely common pick and everyone learned to hop in a locker when a survivor was about to be hooked? What happened to that? Why is that now suddenly a bad thing?
Or is the bad thing actually that these survivors are just playing an incredibly poor macro-game, and Distortion is just a symptom, not the cause?
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644333#Comment_3644333
Take a step back and examine yourself a bit.
This person made a thread, talking about how when survivors run distortion, it usually backfires in their games because it causes them to get tunneled out. And your FIRST instinct is to say: "why do you suck so bad you can't win without using a perk"
Right in the wake of the MFT nerfs, the crosshairs immediately shifted onto Distortion to be the next survivor perk that should be put to the grave. Repackaging the same deal but with a 'how do you do, fellow survivors?' spiel doesn't impress me.
Why's Distortion being singled out as the problem, as opposed to the power creep of information perks on the killer side?
Most of my matches, if survivors were on a gen, I would find them. If they weren't, they were not my problem. But apparently this gameplay element got switched to auto-pilot somewhere along the way where the killer just triggers an info perk and clicks the red blot instead.
And now this thread's here to try and pass the bill to the survivors.
Distortion is not the problem here. If you don't want to tunnel, you don't tunnel. If you can't find someone because they're using distortion, then you can't find them without your perks finding them for you.
'But what if they're over in a random empty corner where they have no reason to go?'
Then they don't need Distortion, they just need a locker. Nerfing Distortion won't make a lick of difference. And yes, that kind of playstyle also existed long before Distortion was buffed into viability, and it'll continue long after Distortion gets crippled.
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Are you that helpless without your aura perks? Can you not find them on your own?
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643806#Comment_3643806
You mean that that kick limit it's only 8 times for all generators? 8 kicks per game?
I got that with 3 gens left.
Survivors flee immediately when I'm still far. They are too far to pursue. I kick the gen and I go to the next one.
I guess kicking isn't a thing I should do then.
From what I gather, the spikes will start showing as a warning that a gen is getting close to hitting its limit (not just when it has already hit that limit), and it's supposed to be 8 events per gen.
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But this was clear in the PTB, wasn't it? Like, people on the PTB were gen-dribbling to do this stuff, right?
Why did it go live as is?
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"Just buff the killers more and we'll totally tunnel less!"
"No, no, just one more buff and then we'll totally stop tunnelling!"
"No, you don't get it, we need just one more buff, just one, to really 'incentivise' spreading hooks!"
@Config said:
As human race has developed there seems to be 2 ways to promote a certain behavior, even ur parents do this. Let’s say ur gol is to not eat burgers, one way u can do this is to punish someone by let’s say punching him every time he eats one, yes he will more likely then not not be willing to get punched and may stop eating burgers, but this is far from being the best way to do it. The other way is to give that same person 20 bucks everyday he does not eat a burguer, and he will more likely then not stop eating burgers cause he’s being rewarded for it. We saw that punishing killers for tunelling isn’t going to change it, cause it’s I still the most effective way to win. The only way to stop tunelling is to make so it’s not the most viable option. REWARD killers for playing “nicely”. Make so every time u hook a different survivor once a gen loses 15%, but if someone dies this affect no longer works, then nerf the current NECESSARY gen regressions, then there would be a reason to avoid it. If this effect isn’t enough make something else, but rn I don’t believe that what they are doing it the correct way to do things. Also make people using bt have no collision, this should’ve be happening since the beginning
The only way to stop tunelling is to make so it’s not the most viable option.
I have a suggestion on how to do that: Make DS stun for five seconds instead of three.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641115#Comment_3641115
Or we could shoot for the outcome where we do nothing and not just give survivors a massive buff
It's only a 'massive buff' if you're tunnelling. And if you are, they need the buff.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641097#Comment_3641097
That should be the risk in tunnelling, but considering how quickly you can hook someone again after that first chase (due to anti-tunnel being somewhat weak), it really isn't that risky. The entire risk is how much generator progress is done in your first chase, and even if it doesn't break in your favour, you still ruined that one player's match.
So, we have a very powerful tactic that is extremely difficult for the average player to counter and sucks to go against. That's a bad situation, so the clear way forward is to heavily disincentivise that tactic. Making it risky by making the anti-tunnel tools potent enough that hitting into them actually matters to the killer is a very good first step.
Buff Decisive Strike, and, buff the others. Make the basekit anti-tunnel not cause Deep Wounds so you can't clear Off The Record immediately, at least. With those changes made killers would hesitate before tunnelling, because actually trying to would carry risk.
DS back to five seconds, and, IMO, instead of granting Endurance, OTR should create a complete info blackout until a conspic action: No screams, auras, killer instinct, grunts of pain, footsteps, blood trail or even scratch marks. Make that chase -awful-.
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With an extremely limited purpose, which it currently is not adequately fulfilling.
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DS is one of those perks that is really focused on one particular purpose, but then does a pretty bad job at fulfilling that one purpose.
Which is pretty common for survivor perks, to be fair.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640986#Comment_3640986
5s in a straight line vs 3s in a straight line, at 0.6m/s speed differential thats 20s vs 33s of time just for using the perk, if 20s isn't enough then put in the effort to loop
Again, it's anti-tunnel. It's just there to limit the value killer gets for free. Deal with it.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640642#Comment_3640642
You lose a majority of the value that you never had to work for, if you want ds to be a better perk you have to do most of the work go down in a good area bring perks that synergize with it like dead hard or lithe to make it to a good area or windows of opportunity to find a good area, its boring if the perk does all the work
All it does is reduce value that the killer never had to work for, either. Get over it.
EDIT: Server issue caused a double post.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640642#Comment_3640642
You lose a majority of the value that you never had to work for, if you want ds to be a better perk you have to do most of the work go down in a good area bring perks that synergize with it like dead hard or lithe to make it to a good area or windows of opportunity to find a good area, its boring if the perk does all the work
All it does is reduce value that the killer never had to work for, either. Get over it.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639967#Comment_3639967
Don't forget killers had the brilliant strategy of 'just stand in front of the hooked survivor' taken away from them.
Not really, Covid just caught up to them and they had to learn to do social distancing.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640438#Comment_3640438
I love when people are saying that but ignoring the other facts.
DS buffed to 5 seconds because of Enduring, that's correct. But in this time, maps was survivorside. There was not so much dead zones. Dead Hard was still op perk and it was on all survivor builds. And it was pre-6.1.0 update which means killers were weaker than now.
But now?
Maps are full with dead zones. So DS is not guaranteed to give you chance to make it any loop if you are at deadzone.
Killers are stronger.
Dead Hard only has 2 use and it's no longer the most popular perk.
So yeah for this time, 3 seconds DS was fine because you would use other tools to stop tunnelling. But now? It's garbage perk with current meta.
But we love to ignore things, are not we?
That's not the most important distinction. Back when it was 3 seconds, it didn't require you to be hooked at all, and didn't disable on a conspic action. In other words, it was a purely offensive perk, not anti-tunnel, or avoidable.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640451#Comment_3640451
The stun last 3 seconds but how much time does the perk actually buy if you use it properly, or even improperly for that matter
Heres a near worst case scenario with ds not counting other perks of just standing still
Get unhooked, Get hit 2x (5.4s), Get picked up (3s), get dropped / stunned (3s), get hit (2.7s) get picked up (3s), get hooked (1.5s), worst case scenario the perk bought your team 8.7s of additional time, with a total interaction time of 18.6s which is time for your team in the worst case scenario.
Add travel times to hooks or heck even looping and not standing still and you get some pretty good value, perk buys a lot more time then that 3s stun leads on because that 3s is 8.7s of cooldowns, stuns, and animations
Problem is that the perk costs a hookstate to use, and is easily circumvented. Losing half the distance/stun time, which was the majority of its value, was a colossal nerf to a perk that greatly improved game health. It did not deserve this nerf, and the game as a whole is worse off for it.
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I do think that tunnelling, and the desperate effort to maintain two entirely different balancing floors, is severely damaging the game. The nerf to DS plunged this game into a much worse state where both sides seem more dissatisfied than they were beforehand. Killers claim to get harder matches, despite a wealth of buffs, and survivors don't see a point in playing when they either never see a gen, or never see the killer.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I won't surprise if they make it not stackable with OtR or DH. Something like if you get deep wound, DS deactivates.
Oh god, I can totally see them making DS disable upon getting deep wound to bring it in line with other 'extra health state' perks.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639093#Comment_3639093
What do you expect? This and tunneling/camping are all that's left. Every other killer strategy has been taken away because of survivor complaints. The game has been made so competitive that fun and meme builds are nearly impossible to use.
What other strategies have been nerfed out? Are you saying 60-min genkicking getting nerfed is the reason for this current meta?
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639191#Comment_3639191
- But you do realize that survivor who was double hooked already is in the risk of being hooked for the third time at any moment and has to play safe? It's not like killer will intentionally ignore a survivor who is repairing a gen in front of it, right? Being double hooked like that means you can get eliminated the moment killer finds that convenient or required.
- That's the thing - in this gen block meta, you likely don't get those 8 gen regression events because you rely on getting gens blocked long enough to get survivors eliminated. Go for gen regression perks and chances are you will eventually get a gen that can't be manually damaged by a killer anymore.
- Maybe it is a subjective thing here. If so, then this entire point is irrelevant.
- Who decides that killer starts behind at all in the first place? Killer spawns in one point of the map and survivors somewhere else ( provided no offerings are used ). It all goes about luck whenever killer finds and does catch survivor off-guard and gets early downs or hooks or has to spend time before any chase does happen and lose a gen while searching for the first target. There's absolutely no guarantee at any point of the game that one side will win or lose. Odds of winning or losing do change based on how many survivors are still in the game and how many generators were repaired.
Being double hooked like that means you can get eliminated the moment killer finds that convenient or required.
Which is about when that survivor is released from the hook again. That's the problem with tunnelling. An issue you don't have with gens.
That's the thing - in this gen block meta
It's not a gen-block meta thing. BHVR chose 8 because it was a number that, according to their statistics, is barely ever hit -outside- of 60-min stall tactics. You're very unlikely to hit this limit, so long as you don't play exclusively for gen defense.
Who decides that killer starts behind at all in the first place?
That's how the game progresses. Your first chase has the most pallets in it, and the least pressure on survivors. Your later chases will have more pressure on survivors, fewer pallets, people might be injured, your power might come online, whatever you may have, but generally speaking, killers start the match at their weakest. Which is why it's unreasonable to point to the very first chase as some kind of indicator for the rest of the game. Plenty of matches where the first hook comes at three gens done still result in a 3K+.
Conversely though, if a survivor is dead and there's more than one gen left to do, the chances of a 2E or better are infinitesimal.
Killers can make comebacks pretty easily. For survivors, it's almost impossible. That's why this focus on a 'fair' early game is entirely unreasonable.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639061#Comment_3639061
- Getting hooked twice in a row is considered tunneling.
- Defending last gens is now harder because of gen regression events.
- Events are not impactful. Gen regression perks are the same. If you mean 5% regression perk kick instead of 2.5%, then it's 3 seconds of gen repair. It's extremely easy to do, especially if 2 or more survivors do that. As long as you don't try to do that in killer's face, stopping gen regression is not much of an issue.
- Where exactly does a killer without very specific perks have a comeback mechanic?
- If you double-hook someone and then ignore them for the rest of the match until you've gotten a solid number of hooks on others, they're really not going to care.
- This is actually pretty doubtful. How many games do you actually manage to rack up eight regression events on one gen, without also winning that match? Besides, your job isn't to keep the gens from being done.
- YOU think they're not impactful. That's a difference.
- Who said anything about a comeback -mechanism-? The game's built from the ground up to work that way. The killer starts behind and can overtake the survivors. The game doesn't hand it to you, but you can easily secure extra kills even if the early game was trash. If the survivors had a bad start, it's incredibly difficult for them to recover.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639013#Comment_3639013
Same could be said about survivors. First two hooks don't matter, it's the last one that kills you.
Also those early gens that you speak of is the time that killer has or should have before first few hooks can happen. When all that time gets spent because of efficient survivor play, the killer has to apply pressure. You may think that defending last remaining gens is easier when in reality a well spread gens are extremely difficult to defend for most killers. With addition of gen regression events a tri-gen situation can't be used by killer, so that point when killer could ''sacrifice'' early gens for late game is now gone.
So what should killer do if they have a bad start and almost no late-game comeback chance ( unless they go for specific end-game build with noed, bw and other stuff ) and each hook costs at least a gen?
Survivors have a comeback chance against a tri-gen and much easier time repairing gens because they don't need to worry about tri-gen situation anymore. The only situation when they do struggle is when one of them is out early enough, which is the reason why killers try to get a survivor out asap.
12 hooks don't matter. This game is tied to kills and escapes. We all know that. It's like saying fixing 5 gens and opening a exit gate is a win for survivors, even if none of them does escape afterwards.
Same could be said about survivors. First two hooks don't matter, it's the last one that kills you.
No survivors are complaining about the first two hooks, what are you on about?
You may think that defending last remaining gens is easier when in reality a well spread gens are extremely difficult to defend for most killers.
It's still a ton easier than defending 7 gens, don't you think?
With addition of gen regression events a tri-gen situation can't be used by killer, so that point when killer could ''sacrifice'' early gens for late game is now gone.
That's nonsense! Even if you can only have eight regression events, that's still eight regression events. And each individual event is now more impactful. That still buys you -tons- of time to get your hooks in, just not a literal infinite amount anymore. You actually do have to do work now.
So what should killer do if they have a bad start and almost no late-game comeback chance
You -always- have a late-game comeback chance, that's innate. If you fail to grasp it, accept that you lost a match.
Sometimes you lose a match, that's okay too.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638985#Comment_3638985
Tunnel out exists because other alternatives get inefficient very quickly.
What do you expect the killer will do if the first hook does cost 2 or 3 gens? Spread the hooks?
This combo essentially gives killer more time to roam for other survivors and get rewarded for spreading the attention. Survivors who can't run longer than few seconds are simply unhappy that killer can get a value out of something that requires effort and want those easy and brainless plays back.
What do you expect the killer will do if the first hook does cost 2 or 3 gens? Spread the hooks?
Killers really need to get over this. The first couple of gens don't matter. The last one does. Loads of games storm into the 2-3 gens cleared, and then grind to a complete halt, to end with a 12-hooked victory for the killer with those same last two gens still unfinished.
You have a weak start as killer. You're supposed to, because survivors have NO comeback mechanisms. Once they fall behind, the game is -over- for them. This does not apply to killer, who can even get their first hook at five gens done and STILL get a 4K.
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@Mooks said:
I think it is very likely that it loses the BP bonus, just because they want to be consistent with this (see BBQ, WGLF). I can understand the philosophy behind that, because I did feel ‚forced‘ to run these perks even on killers/builds where the other effect would really benefit me.
has Thrill of the hunt lost its BP bonus? I remember it got changed but do not remember that part,,
It got stripped from Prove Thyself, but Thrill of the Hunt apparently still has its BP bonus, according to the DBDWiki. Though the changelog for Thrill only goes up to 5.3, which is before the big BP purge.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638141#Comment_3638141
That's 1 perk, and there were still people complaining about "needing to take it" for the same reason. More anti-tunnel exist besides DS. Like OTR.
OTR only became an anti-tunnel perk when DS got nerfed though, and as mentioned before, OTR doesn't work if the killer tunnels hard enough.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637746#Comment_3637746
I understand "they're too weak". It's understandable to not want to run a perk you think is weak.
Like I said, it's the "but I don't want to run them, because what if they don't tunnel?". When supposedly it's super frequent. That's been said even when people think the perks are strong at what they do.
DS had a super high pickrate back when it was actually good though...
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@Vanishlord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637830#Comment_3637830
Disguise is a mechanic I have been asking for a while. I remember thinking that from the Legion trailer that his power would be to disguise as a survivor. I would love the paranoia and distrust that would bring to the game.
I don't think that would work, as Swiffers could easily communicate with each other and completely nullify the power.
But mimics have been on my mind for a while. You know the mannequins in the new Shelter Woods stage? Imagine having the entire map littered with replicas of the killer, and the killer's power is to jump between them, except every time they do, they are undetectable until they move.
Every single one of those statues could be them.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637678#Comment_3637678
I never understood that mindset.
"Killers are tunneling basically every match!"
"Run anti-tunnel then."
"But what if they don't tunnel?"
Like are they doing it almost every game or not lol. You can't have a perfect build for literally every single scenario.
See, people did bring anti-tunnel perks. But then it got nerfed because the pickrate was too high.
Now it's bad enough that even if you do get tunnelled and the killer faceplants into it, it doesn't do enough to really offset it, or in the case of OTR, it doesn't work at all if the killer tunnels hard enough.
If you nerf anti-tunnel badly enough, the new anti-tunnel just becomes genrush. Instead of DS/OTR, just bring Hyperfocus/Stakeout, toolboxes, BNPs, etc, and pray you're not the first one to be spotted.
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Pretty sure we had plenty of cheaters before SBMM was introduced though. DBD just doesn't have the security or moderation to tackle the problem.
And didn't they also dish out free copies of DBD on Epic, spawning boatloads of burner accounts?
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637296#Comment_3637296
Hey dude. The pick rate was high because survivors used it offensively. To bodyblock and tank hits for free
You're forgetting the part where the killer played the way survivors want, and was punished for it. Any buff to ds will result in it being used this way again
No, it wasn't. It was this high because it was a strong deterrent to tunnelling, making it almost integral to the game's health.
Again, if people try to use it offensively, all you have to do to win is -not- press space bar on them. You've just been given tons of free pressure by getting a free down, which another survivor will have to fix, while still in chase with another survivor.
(Also, the DS baiter has not contributed anything to their team from the moment they were unhooked to the point where they went down. More free slowdown.)
Some survivors tried to use it offensively, in the hopes that some newbie killer would fall for it, but the vast majority brought it in because they wanted to make sure that if the killer starts tunnelling, they're going to have a rough time.
This 'offensive use' story didn't crop up until people started asking for DS to go back to five seconds. No one complained about it back when it actually was five seconds.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637085#Comment_3637085
With a limited amount of kicks, the buff just gives a fair recourse for killer. If it does become a problem, I'm sure BHVR will fix it.
And I would not say that's comparable at all, the changes were made because killer now has limited kicks/regression events. A fairer example would be if they kept MFT but gave all the killers a 3% haste basekit as compromise, or something along those lines.
And even then it's what, an extra 3 seconds you repair? Just repair when the killer leaves. When I tested it all in the PTB, I was able to get that 5% done and then some before they came back when a 3 gen was attempted.
Yes, but the point is that you don't hit that limit in normal gameplay. So that limitation in the amount of kicks is not a nerf at all, unless you're trying to lock down a 3-gen from the start and drive it up to the 60 minute mark. So why would you get compensated for a nerf that's not going to affect you?
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637271#Comment_3637271
They're only going to be on the floor if you camp them. Don't forget this is the era where killers see 3gen pops in the first hook. At this point survivors only need 2 more, and have 1 guy in chase, 1 guy downed, 1 guy ready to heal the downed guy and 1 guy on gens. The ds user will have easily bought them 50% of the last two remaining gens at zero cost.
This style of gameplay was why it was gutted. Same with instant blind flashlights. Why do you think it was nerfed?
"At this point survivors only need 2 more, and have 1 guy in chase, 1 guy downed, 1 guy ready to heal the downed guy and 1 guy on gens."
As opposed to without DS, where there's three guys on gens. One hit doesn't buy enough time to compensate for that.
"Why do you think it was nerfed?"
According to them, it was because DS was originally 3 seconds and got buffed because Enduring affected it, which was since removed.
Everyone else knew it was because it was a high pickrate perk and BHVR wanted a meta shake-up.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637254#Comment_3637254
Which conspicuous action did I describe? Because this was how the perk was used. This scenario is exactly why it was nerfed
So what are you talking about then? Because if a survivor tries to bodyblock with it, guess what, they're going to be out on the floor for a very long time, giving you a ton of free pressure.
Also, no, that's not why it was nerfed.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637159#Comment_3637159
They don't need to watch you. When you are on ground they can patrol around because you won't pick up yourself immediately even if you have UB. When i slug someone, i am not waiting next to them. I am pressuring gens next to me.
So nah, your suggestion is actually makes DS very much counterable. DS should not have counter except not tunnelling.
It's not any more counterable than it is currently. Start the timer at unhook and don't pick up until it hits 60. If the chase takes 45 seconds, you've only 15 left to wait. With @Seraphor 's suggestion, it could be up to 30 seconds.
I do think it could use a little extra lenience, like maybe bumping it up to 40, or get real messy and make it a randomly chosen number between 35-45 so the killer really doesn't have a clue, but I think Seraphor's suggestions are pretty solid.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632026#Comment_3632026
On further thought, I had a new idea. Forget the Haste effect.
Instead, successfully using Decisive Strike removes Exhaustion. It would pair well with Sprint Burst and Lithe but Balanced Landing plays would also be viable depending on where you go down.
I don't like the idea of an exhaustion perk being near mandatory to pair with it, personally. It should just be good at its own niche. The price it exacts is high enough.
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@ChaosWam said:
With arguments like this, I guarantee they're going to get themselves killed by a 3 gen regardless of any cap because "OH LOOK KILLER GOT A SMALL % BUFF"
Seriously, they're limiting regression per gen, how is this not a good compromise regardless of how they adjust it?
I think the issue is that a niche outcrop got pruned, but the compensatory buff is going to have wider impact.
It'd be comparable to the MFT nerf being paired with survivor movespeed being increased to 101% across the board, as a 'compromise'.
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@anarchy753 said:
DBD is survivor sided. There are some very strong, oppressive killers, but the majority of the cast is manageable.
People who just blindly quote "muh kill rates" severely miss the subtlety of the statistics.
Think about it logically.
It is very likely that you go from a game with 0 kills to a game with 1 kill. You can suck all game, but you down one person endgame and you either camp them to death, or people keep trading until one dies. It takes little skill or effort to get a single kill.
Likewise, it is far easier to get the fourth kill than it is to get the 2nd or 3rd kill. The survivors are still competitive with several alive, they can still outplay you to buy time. When you down survivor 3, any killer can choose to slug them and track down survivor 4. Worst case, they don't find them and hatch is a 50/50 at best for the survivor. Again, the killer didn't play any better or worse, but because of being asymmetrical, a fourth kill is much easier.
We have 2 factors at both the low and high end that push kill numbers up, whether the game was a survivor stomp or a killer stomp. There is no real overarching factor that makes kills less likely in the same way.
Therefore, in a balanced game, we should still expect that kills are higher than 50%.
It's not the kill rates, it's the win rates.
The overall average, according to Nightlight, puts 3K+ at roughly 48%, and 0-1K at roughly 38%. This means killers win 10 percentage points more than they lose.
When compared to survivors, the average kill rate of 55% implies a 45% winrate for survivors, leaving a 3% difference in win rate between the two.
So it's slightly killer-sided.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636521#Comment_3636521
ok but why are you telling me the benefits to tunneling? Isn't that my point?
Those are all the reasons why your non-tunneling chases need to all be even faster.
I'm telling you because 'this is how fast chases need to be' isn't a good way to show the difference between tunnelling and non-tunnelling.