Fibijean
Fibijean
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I feel like what a lot of people are missing is that it's mostly a matter of disappointed expectations. This is the first time they've tried to monetize a community event, and they gave no indication that they were doing so until a dev stream 24 hours before the launch of the event. People have grown to expect a couple of token cosmetics in exchange for a fun grind exclusively with events, and there was no reason to believe this would be any different. Events are usually free. Amazing skins like that are usually cells-only, and most people are fine with that. It's the fact that they combined the two and it just feels like a Halloween skinset with extra steps. It's nice that we can get one for free, but I think it's understandable that people are upset, not because they don't get free stuff but because they built up an expectation based on past events and were then disappointed.
@Peasant The florist analogy is quite helpful. If you want to understand the opposing viewpoint, you could think of it this way: If this florist had come to your house with a bunch of roses they were selling, and you said "wow those are amazing" and they were so flattered that they gave you the whole bunch without you having to pay. They came to your door several times after that, each time with a bunch of roses that they give you for free. They say that it's because they like you so much, and really appreciate how much you love their flowers. Then one day, they appear on your doorstep with a dozen bunches of roses. You think, "oh wow, are they really going to give me all these just because they like me so much? That's amazing and incredibly generous, they must have put a lot of work into arranging those flowers." and the florist says, "look, you can have one bunch for free like usual. But I want you to pay for the rest." Some people are going to say "I understand, thank you for the bunch of roses." They might even say "I will happily pay for more." But I hope you can understand why some might be a little disappointed, even if they understand the florist's point of view, because every time they've met the florist in the past, they've been given free flowers and told that the florist wanted to give them free flowers because they appreciated them so much. They might feel like they weren't appreciated as much as they thought, or that the florist was really only priming them the whole time so that they'd be willing to buy flowers when the time came, and the flowers weren't really out of appreciation after all but a marketing strategy instead.
I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I'm trying to illustrate a different viewpoint so that there can be more understanding of other perspectives, even if we don't agree with them.
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@Fictionalname I don't remember them saying that you wouldn't have time, although I might be misremembering. As I recall, what they said was something along the lines of they felt it was a reasonable amount for most players. But if there are people who want to live and breathe Dead by Daylight for two weeks so that they can unlock more, I feel like they should have that option. It's still a good thing for the devs if people are playing their game, and if there were the option to unlock all or most of the cosmetics, even if it's unrealistic, I think people would feel a lot better about the rest being buyable, and therefore more likely to buy them.
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@Terrortot Same. Honestly it's not a huge deal, but it's disappointing that there's barely any grind to speak of, and we don't even have the option to grind insane hours to unlock everything. I was excited and expecting this event to be more like previous ones in that sense, so it's just a bit of a letdown.
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@Well_Placed_HexTotem I'll try and explain it to you.
Basically, there is a cap on how many points you can earn during the event. At the cap, you have enough to buy 3 cosmetic items out of 21, or 1 full outfit out of 7. The rest you can pay for either during or after the event (they'll remain in the shop forever) for $10 US.
The main reasons people have problems with this are:
a) This is the first event in the history of the game that has been monetised. Up until now, all community events like this one were 100% free and you could unlock all the content just by playing the game.
b) A lot of people feel that the devs have not been very transparent about the above fact in the leadup to the event, especially since it's different to anything they've done before and quite a significant change at that. They only revealed that the majority of the cosmetics would have to be paid for in a stream 24 hours before the start of the event. So people are feeling betrayed and led on.
c) Instead of only having 1-3 cosmetics like in previous events, there are 21, but most of them are locked behind a paywall. Therefore, it feels like we're being given less because although there's a fair amount of things we can have, there are a lot of things we can't that are just being dangled in front of our noses.The main points of view that people are expressing (or variations/combinations of the below) are:
1) We should be grateful to the devs for working so hard on the event and recognise that they're trying to do something nice for us while also trying to make money for themselves, which is necessary to sustain their business and therefore the game.
2) It's okay to pay for the cosmetics, but they should be exclusive to the event either way, and not available in any form after the event ends, because otherwise it doesn't feel very special.
3) It's okay to want to earn money for their awesome work on these skins, but they shouldn't have let us believe that the prizes for the event were free when they mostly aren't. This has led to people feeling betrayed, and therefore not wanting to spend money on the skins when they otherwise might have. It would have been better from both a marketing and an ethical standpoint if the devs had been more transparent from the start.
4) All the cosmetics should be free by grinding, or purchasable with shards, during the event, because otherwise it just leaves a bad taste in the mouths of the players, especially those who enjoy achieving the goal of completing an event as much as if not more than they do the rewards themselves. Cosmetics could still be bought with cells during and after the event, and again it would be better as a marketing strategy because people would be happier and therefore more likely to shell out the cash.
5) If the event were smaller like past events but 100% free, people would have generally been happier. Perhaps the cool skins could have been released as a new payable skin set instead of being free-but-not-really as part of the event. -
@Eight To be fair, sometimes people will do things like spam crouch or flash their torches as a way of saying "thank you", but since people do those same things when they're being dicks it's hard to distinguish between the two. Of course, if they then went on to insult you in postgame or something, that's another matter.
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I'm not offended, believe it or not I'm trying to help you. Just because other people do it doesn't mean it makes you look good. In fact, what it actually does is make you look just as stupid and illogical as them. If you want people to listen to what you have to say, learn to say it in a constructive way, or else don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.
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I think actual Behaviour employees don't have BHVR in their Steam name, so they're not actually impersonating Behaviour employees any more than someone with the username I_Am_The_CEO_Of_Valve.
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I personally feel that what really takes the wind out of their sales is the fact that there's really no distinction between during and after the event. If you could grind and unlock all the cosmetics during the event (even if "all" meant 2 or 3 items instead of 21) I wouldn't have a problem with people having to pay for them once the event is over. I feel like that still makes the event special. But the fact that you have to pay for most of them regardless, just makes it feel like a Halloween skin pack masquerading as a community event.
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@Fictionalname You can make excuses about why you're like this all you want, but the truth is no reasonable person is going to take you seriously if you can't make an argument without insulting people in the process.
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@Mediva It's not that no one is nice, it's more that the general atmosphere at high ranks is just not fun for some people. I already said that I don't support my friend's actions and I think DCing on purpose is a crappy thing to do, but there's a problem if people feel like they have to do that just to play in a community where they can have fun and not be insulted all the time. There's something seriously wrong if the answer to "everyone is mean and toxic and the environment is unhealthy and unfun" is "just suck it up".
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I think it would have been better from a marketing standpoint to just remove the cap, so people who want to grind insane hours to get the cosmetics can do so and those who don't want to grind or don't have time or start playing after the event has ended can buy the skins. I think more people would be happy to buy them because the event as a whole would have left a better taste in everyone's mouths. As it is, a lot of people who might have bought the skins ordinarily seem to be feeling really betrayed and saying they don't want to support the game like this, and some are swearing off spending money on DbD anymore altogether.
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@DeadByFlashlight Fair. I guess I'm just going off what several other people have said.
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@twistedmonkey Yeah that's the idea. But there are some problems with "Casual Mode", the main one being that the community probably isn't big enough to support it without ridiculously long queues. Honestly I can see a few things wrong with my ideas and I don't know if they'd realistically work, but it would be nice to find a solution.
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What @RoMainPuppy said. If the devs had released a separate halloween-themed skinset with the majority of the cosmetics and not linked it to the event, that would have been fine. If they had only given us 2 cosmetics, that would have been fine too. It's all to do with what the devs have trained us to expect from these events in the past, and allowed us to expect leading up to this event.
The issue isn't to do with how many cosmetics we can get for free, it's to do with how many we can't. If you think about it in terms of percentages rather than numbers, in previous events we've been able to get 100% of what was on offer just by playing the game and putting enough time into the event objectives. This time around, we only get 14% and the rest is dangled in front of our noses on a stick.
For some people, it's not even about the items themselves. It's about the sense of achievement for completing the event objectives and unlocking all the content. I don't think I've worn David's Donkey Jacket once, but I still worked my ass off to get it. It's about the fun factor, about working towards a goal, and about disappointed expectations considering what we've been led to believe this event was going to be like. -
@DeadByFlashlight I don't think I made my stance on DCing clear. I think it's despicable and as you said there's no excuse unless the game is being held hostage. The only other way to derank is to play badly on purpose, which is bad for all the same reasons that DCing is bad, albeit to a slightly lesser extent. But I think it's a problem that there are people that feel like they have to DC just to play in an environment they find fun.
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@twistedmonkey In theory, it would entail exactly the same things as ranked, except that your rank wouldn't be affected, so you'd have nothing to lose except items. The playerbase thing is a totally valid point, and not one that can be circumvented too easily
I agree that the idea behind ranks is sound, but if we're going to keep the one gamemode there need to be some adjustments so that you can't get to rank 1 "by accident" just by being a halfway decent player.The deliberate deranking thing only gets you a ban if you do it enough. The ban is based on your ratio of games played to games dc'ed. So it is possible to do it without getting banned, but there's still a problem regarding the reason it's bannable in the first place - namely, it's not fair to the people you're playing with, and it's not fair to people at lower ranks to be matched against someone of a much higher skill level.
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@George_Soros I had this exact discussion with some family recently regarding games like Settlers. We came to the conclusion that games can be fun if you're playing competitively or cooperatively, but it's only fun if everyone is playing with the same goal in mind. So if everyone is playing to win then it's fun, or if no one is really taking winning seriously it's also fun, but everyone needs to have the same goal in mind otherwise it's not fun for anyone.
That's a really valid point about the community. It's quite possible that DbD doesn't have a big enough player base to support two gamemodes if it were divided between them. LoL's player base is huge, which is probably part of why it works for them. (They were recently overtaken by Fortnite as the biggest free online game in the world by player base, but before that LoL held the title for a good 5-10 years). I would be interested to find out how they handled it back when their player base was much smaller. -
@Huntedfailure said:
That isn’t the devs fault > @Broccoli_Jaeger said:But only for the flowers. What if you aren't able to do them because the killer chases you the whole game etc?
No, but it is their job to create a game that is well designed. That's a bit like saying that it's not the devs' fault if people exploit game mechanics to gain an unfair advantage. It's not directly their fault, but it is their fault that the situation is possible in the first place.
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@Tsulan yeah, it's worth noting that when they did the Lunar New Year event (my favourite to date) they released 3 cosmetics and all of them were free, to reward the time people put into the game during the event.
I realise that they've done a lot of expensive things for this event (extra skins, animated trailers, etc.) and they now want to make that money back, but that stuff was actually unnecessary. The community as a whole probably would have been much happier with a smaller, but entirely free, event.
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For people saying that everyone is just being spoilt and greedy, it's got nothing to do with that. It's not even about how many cosmetics we get. Yes, we don't usually get 3 cosmetics (although as illustrated above, they did that for the Lunar New Year, and that was all for free for the record). People are upset because:
a) As @SpaceCoconut said, they're monetising something which was traditionally free for all players, not to mention that they never gave any indication until this stream that the majority of the unlockables would not be free.
b) Because even though 3 is more than we sometimes get, it feels like less. No matter how much we play, we can only get 11% of the available cosmetics and we have to pay for the rest, whereas previously if you grind enough you have always been able to unlock 100% of the event cosmetics. -
@Dustin Even if people claim that they're upset by the fact that we only get 3 cosmetics, that's not actually what the problem is. It's not that people are spoilt, or greedy. People were fine with getting only two cosmetics in previous events because that's all that was offered. Sure, it would have been nice if there were more, but for the most part people were satisfied. The problem people have here is that yes we get more, but it feels like less because we only get a fraction of what's on offer, and the rest is locked behind a paywall. Never before have free players been unable to access part of an event or its rewards.
So it's not 3 free cosmetics instead of 2 free cosmetics, it's 11% of the available cosmetics instead of 100%. That's why people aren't happy.
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@George_Soros That's a good point. The main theory was that people would be less salty if they didn't have anything to lose. The idea behind casual play isn't the same as troll play (although that might be a side effect, come to think of it). The idea is that you still play to win, it's still competitive, but people don't mind losing as much because they're not actually losing anything, and therefore the environment would be less toxic overall, similar to how the environment is at low ranks currently - people are there either because they don't care about losing or because they're still new so they don't have high expectations of themselves or their teammates.
I would agree with what some people seem to be thinking which is that I'm living in a bit of a fantasy here and it's simply not realistic, except that I've experienced the difference in environment and attitudes between ranked and casual play in games like League. So either it would work for DbD as well, or there's something fundamentally different about LoL that makes it work there and not here. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, though.
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Even if we do get "more than previous events", it still feels like we're being cheated. As someone above said, it was advertised as a community event. Community events should be free so that the members of the community can enjoy them. If a few cosmetics had been made free as part of the event, and then there had been a halloween-themed set of skins released separately and not advertised as part of the event, I think people on the whole would have been much happier.
It's understandable that the devs want to earn money for all these super cool skins they've created. (Although making the cosmetics free if you grind during the event and buyable with cells if you don't grind or if you buy them outside of the event would also have worked to make money from them. They're awesome skins and there's a constant stream of new players, so people that start playing after the event ends would be likely to want to buy the skins.) However, it's not actually the amount of cosmetics that people are upset about. Previously, people have been totally happy grinding to get 1 killer cosmetic and 1 survivor. It's the fact that the remaining 24 items are dangled in front of us and we can't actually get them just by playing the game, as has been the case in every other community event to date. Players have been trained to expect a certain format for free events, it's no wonder they're upset when it feels like half the fun of the event is locked behind a paywall.
I don't know much about business or finance, so if this is what Behaviour has to do to earn enough to keep themselves running, well then that's what they have to do. But I think the community outcry is understandable, and not because people are greedy but because they feel like they've been offered something only to have it taken away at the last minute. If it is financially viable, I think removing the serum cap so that people can grind their way to all the outfits, but still pay for them if they miss the event or don't want to grind, would be the best solution and would make a lot of people much happier.
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@Lowbei If you want to talk about obeying forum rules, we could talk about how you're derailing this topic and literally making it about you.
Leaving that aside, I looked at your profile. I did notice one thing, and that's that you've been banned before. Feel free to correct me, but I'm guessing it was for being rude to other players, which you seem to do an awful lot with very little provocation.
You may be well-known, but so was Hitler. The fact that a lot of people agree with things you've said is neither impressive nor admirable. What is both impressive and admirable is being able to hold a conversation with someone that doesn't agree with you without mocking them or throwing thinly-veiled insults around. People will be more likely to take you seriously if you can make your argument without attacking anyone else, or saying they're "hilarious" in lieu of an actual argument.
In the meantime, does anyone know if there's a way to close my own topic? I feel like we're not actually talking about the original point anymore, and anything worth saying has already been said (on BOTH sides of the discussion, before anyone starts accusing me of trying to censor people that don't agree with me).
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@GrannyonAcid I'm certainly not a fan of him either, but try not to rise to his bait. He's clearly just trying to antagonise you. (Also I'd prefer if this topic didn't get closed because of people insulting one another.)
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@purebalance I guess it's just a matter of different perspectives. In my experience, the thing that makes it not casual is people's attitudes. In general, players at higher ranks are really salty and aggressive. My guess, which could be wrong, is that it's because they actually care about their ranks and so they get upset when others endanger that. I feel like being able to play in a situation where ranks aren't affected would go a long way towards creating the kind of "casual" environment I'm talking about.
(Also why the quotation marks? Do you think I'm lying and the friend is actually me, or something?) -
@GrannyonAcid That's exactly the issue, I'm glad someone gets what I'm trying to say lol. On the one hand, deranking does hurt the people you're playing with, and it's not fair to newer players to be put in matches with people way better and more experienced, which is why it's bannable. On the other hand, for people who just want to have fun in a non-competitive environment, deranking is the only solution that currently exists.
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@purebalance I"m sorry if my point wasn't very clear. You're right, it is an MMR and that's the whole issue. It doesn't matchmake accurately to skill level because it's too easy to rank up.
The idea about casual play was to do with the competitive attitudes of people at high ranks. Some people don't like to play in such a competitive environment, but ranking up is too easy so they can't avoid it with the current system. Therefore, either ranking needs to be more difficult so that only those who are skilled enough and want to play competitively can get to high ranks, or there needs to be a separate game mode for non-competitive play.
Hope that clears it up a bit
@Dibs Thank you, after the last comment I did decide to do just that. There's no point arguing with someone who's already decided they're not going to listen to a word you say.
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@Lowbei what part of "This thread isn't about the ban" don't you understand? Mentioning does not equal discussing. In fact, I don't think I even mentioned the ban in this thread, just the fact that he was dc'ing to derank. I'm not discussing it, I'm not contesting it, I didn't even mention it. I was simply using the situation to prove a point.
Also, I believe what @GrannyonAcid was trying to say wasn't that the game was too competitive, quite the opposite. It's too easy to rank up, so getting to rank 1 isn't a real achievement. Anyone who is halfway decent and plays frequently enough can do it, so in that sense it's not very competitive at all, because you don't really have to compete to get there. -
@Lowbei as I said to scerckan, this thread is not about his ban. I'm not asking for him to get unbanned, I'm not saying his ban was unjust, and I'm not saying that dc'ing on purpose is a good thing. Please read the post more carefully if you're going to comment on it, and especially if you're going to report it for no good reason. The point of this thread is that there is a problem that needs addressing, and I'm using my friends example as evidence of the fact that people are doing the wrong thing in an attempt to get around the real issue. The solution, therefore, is to address the real issue.
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@scerckan We're trying to have an actual discussion here, so if you could not go about insulting people that would be great. Also, you missed the point. I've said several times that a) I'm not defending my friend or asking for him to get unbanned, but simply lamenting the fact that there are people like him who feel the need to do that, and b) it had nothing to do with not wanting to face people, he doesn't care about losing, it's about people at high ranks being rude to each other and generally making the game toxic and unfun.
Again, no one is saying he shouldn't have been banned. The point is that his situation is a symptom of a problem with toxicity and people being forced up the ranks who aren't actually good enough or who don't want to play ranked in the first place. -
@AChaoticKiller said:
Yea the devs pulled a great bait if you ask me. We find out there are cool skins and 2 WEEKS to get them only to get slapped with "If you maximize your play time you can get ONE skin set" that's total bs. What they should have done is made it so if you wanted a lot of the skins you'd have to grind your ass off. Then at the end sell them with cells to the players who could not get the skins. If they did this then it would be the best event dbd would ever have. I wish we could at least get a killer and survivor skin set like the previous events.Totally down with what this person said. We should be able to grind for all the cosmetics, and the paywall only goes up after the event is over. That way, the people like me who have no lives and want to grind their asses off for all the cosmetics can, and get that sweet sense of achievement from getting all the event objectives. They can still get their money from the casual players who either don't want to or don't have time to grind, and so decide to buy their favourite outfits instead. Or, from people who start playing later and want to retroactively get the cosmetic skins. There are definitely ways to make money and keep the community from feeling like they've been cheated. These killer cosmetics are some of the most awesome ones they've ever made. People who can't get them for free are going to want to buy them.
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Thanks @shootaman777, I appreciate it. I didn't know about that thread, and it sucks that they're not listening to it. I guess my hope is that if there's enough community support they might do something, and every little bit counts. Not to mention, I think they pay more attention to the DBD forum than they do the steam forums at this stage. I do think that it would be amazing if they did implement it, but they're focusing so hard on releasing new content that I don't think optimising their old content is much of a priority at the moment. They're just not big enough to do both at once, and they've already promised the content. Still, I wish there were something else that could be done. I feel like wanting to have fun really isn't too much to ask from a video game, but maybe a community full of normal, polite people is.
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@ChesterTheMolester we do? You mean people will just fight each other and the thread will descend into chaos, or...?
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I see your point @Cetren but I think the main reason people are rude and tryhard in rank is because it's ranked. If there's no goal to work towards in casual play, I think a lot of people wouldn't feel the need to get upset with their teammates because they don't lose anything (except items I suppose, which could be a problem.) It's not about the people themselves, it's about addressing why they get so salty in the first place. In most cases, I don't believe that it's just who they are as a person and would translate to anything they played.
With regard to fleshing out ranked mode, that's true and I didn't think of that, but I do think that casual play should be more of a priority than ranked. If no one's playing ranked, it's probably because they would rather play casual, so I feel like the devs should be catering to the needs of the community in that sense.
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My friend is a survivor who likes to accuse killers of lag switching, but half the time I'm pretty sure it's his internet that's bad, not the killer's. Unless multiple people accuse you in the same game, it might not even be your fault.
Also, this is just an educated guess but it's likely that things that are high-intensity for the CPU, like teleporting as hag or entering a chase, will also put extra strain on the connection because of the extra information it's trying to upload and cause lag spikes. A lot of survivors, especially paranoid ones like my friend, will perceive those spikes as you enter a chase as you lag switching.
Long story short, getting a better internet connection will probably help, but no your connection is probably not that bad, and honestly the likelihood is that it isn't really even your fault.
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@Zanfer idk, I only heard it once. After that my eardrums burst and my hearing was lost permanently.
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I haven't heard what she sounds like now, but the old sounds were so bad it made me go from loving her at the start of the game to hating her at the end.
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It's to be expected. The initial influx of players was only due to curiosity about the new chapter. Now that that's died down, most people prefer to play the live version. You can actually earn progress, and the PTB by nature is full of bugs that most people don't feel like dealing with. Not to mention, the less players there are, the less people want to play because the queue times are longer, and so down it spirals.
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@Wolf74 I am a killer player and a survivor player. I play killer to have fun, not for ranks or points, which I suppose is where the difference comes in. Camping and tunneling are unsportsmanlike, because they're not giving everyone a fair go, and it's deliberately making the game unfun for other people. You might say that the balance issues don't give everyone a "fair go", but that's not within our control. What I can control is whether I play the game fairly, doing my best to ensure that it's fun for me and for everyone else. I do that when I play as survivor as well. In short, I am 100% on board with everything @deadwolfwalking said. Yes, everything on that list is a legitimate strategy. Yes, it sucks that some survivors rage when killers aren't doing anything wrong and give the rest of us a bad name. And yes, the killers are just "doing their job". But if you're the sort of person who doesn't just care about yourself, there are more important things than "doing your job", like being a good sport so that everyone can enjoy the game together, fostering a dynamic of friendly competition rather than aggression and hostility.
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You're not wrong that there are a lot of issues with the game. But why make a post like this? It just looks overdramatic and self-important. Yes, there are problems. But just make a post about them normally next time, because the truth is no one cares about one person boycotting the game, even if they write a public essay about it.
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@Wolf74 Those aren't so much survivor rules as they are personal rules imposed on themselves by killers who like to be kind. Any survivor who expects most of those is being unreasonable, because they're asking the killer to not play the game properly in essence. Although the first two of those are really unsportsmanlike and in my experience are only employed by killers who aren't good at the game or get triggered easily, the others are things no rational survivor would have a problem with. Sure the 4% thing sucks when you actually get it and then get put back on the hook, but if a killer does any of the last 5 things on that list I consider it a bonus of him being nice, not something I am entitled to.
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cause he just has a human face underneath. None of the killers have human faces because they're supposed to look inhuman. Yeah, without his mask he looks like a scary dude, but he still just looks like a dude.
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As a woman I can confirm that colour is fuschia.
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@weirdkid5 said:
Nothing is stopping people from resorting to phone calls to talk to each other so the Killer can't hear them, which I feel like this community would definitely do.Exactly. People would find a way to play with and communicate with their friends regardless of what the devs do with swf. It is possible to play with friends just by solo queueing over and over, and talk over the phone if need be. Changing or removing swf would, practically speaking, have no effect except to make what people will do anyway less convenient and more annoying. Nothing is solved from a balance point of view, and you have a whole lot more angry players.
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@The_Manlet around then, yes. Basically people just stopped playing, daily logins dropped hugely, and obviously the more people stopped playing the longer queues got and the smaller the player base got. I was one of the people who stopped playing for a while at that point so I don't know how they recovered from it, but I remember it happening.
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I guess we can chalk it up to ~entity magic~ - his universe, his rules.
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Essentially what it comes down to is the devs have no control over or responsibility for people using voice chat externally. Sure, it gives them a communication advantage, but when I play killer the way I see it is you win some, you lose some. I've had as many utter defeats as wins playing swf, although probably more wins than I get solo queue. And as other people have said, the game will die if they remove the ability to play online with friends. It almost died once before, only about six months into release. People can complain all they want about swf but at the end of the day it's a core part of the game and it's what keeps a lot of people playing. And honestly toxicity is a problem that should be dealt with in its own right. Treating symptoms won't affect the root cause of the issue, and toxic people will be toxic whether they're playing with friends or not.