Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816158#Comment_3816158
it still does no? i never pay attention to that
it still does but in lower radius. i believe original radius was 14 meters around hook, than in first ptb of her first rework, it was 12 meters and now i believe radius is 10 meters post-ptb before this version of skull merchant where main portion of ability got deleted.
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yes. it was a buff awhile back because drone would despawn if you hooked a survivor.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816142#Comment_3816142
I see, I misunderstood your previous comment I thought you were saying to stay within 18 meters to prevent a chase from breaking, regardless, that will not work. 1 fully charged blink is 20 meters so a single fully charged blink will put you within range of the second blink (12 meters). Only under the most ideal circumstance, where you are both able to run in a single direction AND able to break line of sight to prevent the nurse from seeing what you are doing, is there a chance that might work, especially since you can precharge the blink while you wait for predator to go off.
20 meter+10 meter is max blink distance but nurse has to charge her blink and there is also travel time at max distance to blink and than you need charge 2nd blink nearly fully. these type of blinks in general, really risky and survivor have a lot of mind-game potencial with movement to avoid them even if you are in range. I am pretty sure that you'll be out of range if you properly hold-w vs it.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816125#Comment_3816125
Honestly if a billy is able to do that in overdrive with engravings its 100% deserved on his part. The old 15.6 m/s saw is so difficult to get around objects since it's so fast and boots only made it slightly less hard.
you should play against these top-tier billy that i play against as survivor. they make it real easy. they all use boot+iri engraving.
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it used to work together. it got patched out. for some reason, both MFT's effects require you to be injured. they changed order that it checks that your healthy when you use FTP before it checks that your injured after using FTP. they don't want buckle up or MFT to be any good with FTP.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816133#Comment_3816133
if you run towards a competent nurse she is going to blink on top of you and hit you
why would you run into nurse? you run away from nurse. Distance is best friend vs nurse and it is no exception for this perk. I am saying that by the time predator triggers its aura reading, you can outrange both of nurse's blink by running forward. just watch out for that purple double blink nurse add-on…or 3 blink.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
At most i dodge the wolf's punces 60% of the time, his hellfire is so baitable and predictable it makes xenos tail look like a bazooka, and his bats are so avoidable ive walked right past him almost every round ive played against him. When used correctly hes strong but not nurse/blight strong. Ive gotten out pretty often against him too
It is because his skill-cieling for dracula at base-kit is extremely high. i am still playing dracula and i still make mistakes/poor optimized movements with bat form that make me lose time.
the only thing that makes dracula easier to play is Medusa hair add-on. that's it. a lot of people skip his skill-cieling with this add-on because you can teleport onto vault and then shapeshift into wolf or vampire while survivor is still slowed. Physically landing on top of survivor vs good players is much of challenge and using both his anti-loop powers can also be tricky if player is any good at understanding how to outplay them. nerfing dracula would be like nerfing 0.1% of killer that use him well. the average dracula player is not good and fairely easy to escape from. the killer is suppose to be threat to some extent if the player mains killer or is competent with the ability.
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the way chase mechanic works is that you need to be around 18 meters away from survivor to immediately break chase. otherwise chase will go down if your out of sight but very slowly. the counter to predator nurse is just running forward. you can out range both of nurse's blinks by running forward. by the time predator triggers its aura reading, you'll be out of range of the blink.
predator is still a useless perk. its niche 1 case use on nurse has counters.
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bvhr doesn't care. they only look at survivor's fun and not killer fun. too many survivor were d/cing so BVHR decided to do something about d/cs. now we're stuck with weak version of the killer for some months till rework.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816124#Comment_3816124
Thats fine too, either way, the point is it shouldn't let you hide all match for free, but it should give you the ability to pick up killer aura perks early so you can make informed decisions.
the thing is, people that use distortion well, the good players don't really use it for hiding. they use it to prevent soft-tunneling. if all 4 people have distoration, it makes harder for killer to efficiently hook A—>B→A→B→A.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815102#Comment_3815102
I can say you did NOT need boots to farm overdrive. Simply going across the map would charge it up 75% of the way pre patch.
a lot of maps have a lot of collision and the turning helped you mitigate map rng while also landing your chainsaw right next to the survivor which played so well into his missed cooldown that was nearly non-existent in overdrive. they increased cooldown and nerfed boot which in theory should make billy less oppressive.
at least i won't get billy that zoom around the map with iri engraving and land right next to me with overdrive only to m1 or force me to win a m2 50/50 if i am in dead-zone from continuously hit & run gameplay.
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i think it start with 3 tokens and have much longer time to gain tokens… like 80 seconds for being outside and inside chase but it is whatever. the perk is significant worse at preventing tunneling.
i am not really interested in this perk. i am more interested in weave attunement for whether it will remain a decent perk to get aura reading in chase or dead.
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@solarjin1 said:
it obvious that players should have built in gen defense and anti tactics perks at this point. Not one size fit all either. Allow killers to pick two gen defense perks at base before starting the match. The slower start killers like Trapper,Hag,Myers,Oni might want corrupt and dead lock. Fast movement killer who can leave hook quick and run around the board might want grim embrace and pop. Survivor should be allow to pick one anti tactic perk. DS or Unbreakable.
Of course you would have to remove the stronger gen defense from the perk pool or it just be 6 slow down builds (jolt, pop, pain res, corrupt, etc).
if they make regression perk base-kit, it is better to just put a perk that every single killer can use. Pain res and Surge are perks with said effect that virtually any killer can use. Surge does have basic attack requirement but this can easily be changed any down. they first need improve general regression of the game because it is making every gen defence perk very lackluster. Previously, they'd make-up lackluster over-time regression with high total numbers of regression like 25% max total progression Pop and Pain with 25% regression but now these perk got hard-nerfed so over-time regression matters more because all base stuff is weak. In practice, pop, pain res… like all regression perk should be good perks in theory…. but they're not because… base-kit is terrible.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815436#Comment_3815436
I mean the wolf hug tech was also a bug so it's understandable they fixed it, doesn't mean they couldn't have made a feature out of it somehow. It would still have been relatively balanced at least against good players, perfectly used it was insane. I've seen a stream by V1 I think it was and he used it so perfectly in pubs that it wasn't even funny how good the wolf looked because of it xD
i don't think it is bug if certain killer in the game have the feature. at best, its over-sight. it would be bug if ALL killer that have said feature had the feature patched out but that is clearly not the case. the feature being removed is another obvious complaint of survivor asking for a specific part of killer to be weaker. BVHR responds and nerfs it.
Dracula is bug free and has no exploits no but remains strong. survivor still complain about balance because it is not free escape.
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@Philscooper said:
i genuinely really tried to make this perk work in soloq and swfs,
i rarely ever get enough value out of it with autodiactat or always remind myself how much easier it is to just use we'll make it, desprate messures, botany knowledge or circle of healing
i have tried using deadline with bardic, really risky because you have to try and take a hit and escape chase, then try to flip a 50/50 and then pray more to rng-jesus that you hit alot of greats, not really worth compared to a toolbox and built to last,
other more passive gen-focus perks like deja vu, or resilence are also less risky but still more rewarding
i tried to do hyperfocus n stake out
my muscle memory and focus is beyond destroyed to handle this or make it worth it, (skill issue)
corrective action is just a soloq noob perk, not worth running
its not worth running it with fogwise because i can use better alternatives like inner focus or alert
(or when i play in a swf to have constant info anyway)
rookie spirit is not worth running, at all
scavanger is not worth running compared to built to last (i only got 1 charge out of it 😐️ at maximum per match)
this is not happening….not worth running
the worst part that the perk NEEDS perk synergy, otherwise its not worth using the perk at all even if you hit greats alot
the penalty of having doctor skill-checks and being injured just for a measly 10% higher skill-check chance is not worth the risk of staying injured noir possible counters like doctor or perks like overcharge/oppresion making it near impossible to avoid
(i have yet to test if DS is affected 😢)
please remove the condition of needing to be injured and make it like finesse, staying healthy
that way you dont need to risk the injury and being oneshot by anything and anyone
or
increase the sc chance by 15-20%
that way it has almost the same impact as running resilence and can synergize alot better like auto or bardic.
high risk, high rewardthe way i use deadline and i like using the perk is For the people. you only have to go for first save, hopefully killer doesn't camp first hook. I use For the people, Barbic inspiration, Deadline and Bond(as i use this in soloq). the final perk that is best in slot is Stake out but soloq issues. the problem right now is Barbic inspiration has been bugged….. for MONTHS where you play song and the 90 second buff doesn't work.
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@KatsuhxP said:
I guess with the use of the reddit post as evidence I can just ignore the entire post as a joke?
Just in case:
No they can't nerf dracula.
Although it's very fun to play I agree that the semi-spirit playstyle with bat to vampire or wolf is really strong and they should at least revert the switch-cooldown buff, the movement speed is arguably okay and the teleport speed is for sure fine.
The problem is that you don't want the part nerfed that's actually too strong in a lot of cases but the parts that are perfectly fine. The pounce is hardly overpowered alone of the reason it's basically a different form of weskers power with the same weaknesses arguably worse. The fire is pretty good to hit animation-locks but he gets slowed down quite a lot and the hitbox is very accurate, so you sometimes miss people by inches even tho they already touch the fire (not to mention it can't hit through walls, at least not without a gap that's big enough so it can go through. As excampel you can shoot through the gaps of the big parts of the catacomp-like loops on eyrie of crows xD).
they literally did nerf wolf pounce. they removed hug tech from wolf pounce. I don't know what OP post is on about. technically, bat form also got nerfed due to a "bug" where he could swing with bat form but that needed to be fixed arguably. in exchange, they put some decent buffs for bat form to make killer feel good to play. from this point on, it is just gid gud on survivor end.
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Hoarder+Human greed+Predator+Scourge hook: Flood of rage. you'll get auras in chase all game.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815180#Comment_3815180
I dunno. Some of them fit thematically. Deception. Iron grasp.
if you ask me, none of them make sense, they're just names. Maybe like early ones had some ideas to be thematic but now a days, perks like random words… like Made for this.
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@Langweilig said:
It often seems like new characters get perks, that are designed to be bad and just have a third perk to have a third perk
whose to say that 2 perks won't be bad. at least with 3 perks, maybe they magically make a strong perk and if they do, they'll just weaken it anyway so whatever.
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@Hungarianmercenary said:
The default -0.25 c/s regression speed makes me laugh every single time. How this hasn't been changed for years is a mystery.
it wasn't changed because of endless 3 gen kicking gameplay. they could not really buff the number and let killer camp 3 gens entire game for free to w's…. until they did buff it and that is exactly what happened and than they had to revert and fix 3 gen balance. so they did fix 3 gen balance but they forgot to actually buff the gen kicking mechanic and no. 2.5%→5% is not good enough buff. need way more reward than that.
BVHR eventually has to attempt to fix the base-game killer delay in some shape form but who knows when that happens….. and when they do buff it, i can almost bet they'll also buff survivor…. with like…. anti-tunneling and proxy camping changes, so it won't even be free.
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@UndeddJester said:
I suppose you could argue it's a Gambit in the fact you want to stay in chase rather than break chase...
i wouldn't take any of perk names as literal…. otherwise barbecue and chili needs to be about barbecue and chili. I assume that quick gambit will get another buff to reduce its cooldown.
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@AhoyWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814974#Comment_3814974
Damn, should I be thankful to the devs for making a trash perk less trash after several years? It's decent now, but I don't understand why it doesn't work on self-unhooks.
recently, they did some stealth nerf that used to work but now don't work. this is that deliverance used to not give devour hope stacks or any type of perk stacks to the killer. now it does gives stacks to the killer, so they're doing some stealth changes without announcing them.
i almost want to say that it is a bug with deliverance and unhooking effects but i am not sure. Blood rush does not have same description as decisive strike and off the record. here's what it says:
Bloodrush:
After being unhooked, Blood Rush activates for the next 40/50/60 seconds.
While suffering from Exhausted, press the Active Ability Button 1 to recover from Exhausted instantly.
Blood Rush deactivates when used or when performing a conspicuous action.
Blood Rush is disabled once the exit gates are powered.Decisive strike says following:
Notice how decisive strike says "Unhooked or unhooking" yourself and Blood rush does not say that. it only says unhooked which implies exclusively another player. If i had to take a guess why they did that, it is because blood rush USED activate in end game and now… it does not activate in end game. i think they forgot update the description.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
This just has the exact same problem as the old Distortion though, it's a one-size-fits-all hard counter to most aura reading.
The only difference with this compared to old Distortion is that it only works outside of chase but that doesn't really make it any healthier.
what do you mean, one size fits all, it is only counter aura reading outside the chase. all aura reading inside chase will still work unless the player also equips distortion.
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@Brimp said:
Probably the classic "high usage so nerf it" ignoring the fact that overdrive addons just arent worth it. As for lopro I would say it was warranted.
it is because they allowed billy to spam overdrive very easily. without the add-on, your more likely to bump into objects and overdrive farming is generally less time efficient.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814080#Comment_3814080
Well it’s on the killer when deliverance happens in the endgame. It’s not unfair if the killer played bad until then. The perk also can have 0 effect.
I have no idea what to answer at the second part.
I for my part want strong (not OP) perks that have cool and interesting abilities that are fun to use, currently we only get weak or completly niche perks, that are boring. I consider old DH for distance fun, but I found the invincibility stupid. It should have just been a dash with wich you dodge a hit or make fast a short distance.
Well it’s on the killer when deliverance happens in the endgame. It’s not unfair if the killer played bad until then. The perk also can have 0 effect.
The problem is that they don't see themselves playing bad. they see as the perk being unfair because it had an impact on the outcome on the match.
that is what all strong perk are. they're perk that impacted the match and consistently change results. Deliverance into base-kit BT into exit door escape is extremely obvious and very in your face value. You can have perk that silent and very difficult to spot and player might STILL complain because perceive perk gaining value. A great example was Made For This. I bet you over 90% of the player-base couldn't even notice a 3% haste bonus happening but people still complained every single time a survivor got minor value out of the perk because they made to a resource that they shouldn't have. So a perk does not need be showing its value directly for complaints.
Just any reward at all is complained about. Like just few weeks ago, someone was complaining that Lightweight is overpowered…. because some survivor got value out of Lightweight. when you have player-base that sensitive to any perk value, it is no wonder why every perk is balanced to be have the near worst possible starting balance values. Often, only the functionally strong perks survive in that type of balance environment because they usually end up being strong at base-kit for game related reasons.
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@Wibwob said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814495#Comment_3814495
The problem is that pretty much any other Killer's catch-up tool has limitations. Spirit has to charge hers up, she still acknowledges windows and pallets, limited use, and has a long cooldown to her only power. Blight also has to play around pallets and windows, has a cooldown, can only bump 5 times, can't turn sharp corners and has a 2.5 second fatigue whether he hits or not. Singularity's power is completely negated by EMPs, etcetera.
Dracula just ignores anything the Survivor puts between them, has barely any cooldown or limitation and can use his other abilities right after.
And for your other point, map mobility is an incredible thing for a killer to have regardless of how it plays in chase so I don't think it ever be irrelevant. But also: it should not be completely useless for catching up, but not as effective as it is at the moment either, because it's pretty uninteractive.
but bat form has limitations… like being unable to see survivor, noise that makes it harder track and the killer cannot necessary m1 directly out of bat form as there is small delay where survivor can drop a pallet or vault a window assuming survivor is camping the window or the pallet.
in many ways if dracula is able to pin-point track you in bat form and directly land on top of you and your not near a loop/resource than it is misplay by the survivor. The survivor also has advantage of being able to directly see bat and where killer is. Dracula doesn't ignore anything. At best, dracula is winning 50/50's and playing some basic mindgames with bat form through sixth sense tracking.
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@fixblitzskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814552#Comment_3814552
I think that's the point and it forces a killer to camp or look constantly back at hook if they want to tunnel. Tunneling still possible but it wont be handed out with a noise notification.
the sound is extension to UI. the killer UI is already worse then survivor UI because it doesn't show hook states. no need to downgrade current UI to be worse than what already is.
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that just makes it more annoying to constantly check UI.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814448#Comment_3814448
You make several different arguments about his power being the way it is for balance reasons. I am telling you his power is not fun to interact with in its current state, which is a different point entirely. I never suggest changes or fixes in my post.
If you just removed all of the irritating garbage in his kit he would be the worst killer in the game, so that's not the solution I would want. He would need a rework to not have an irritating power while still remaining balanced.
those several points in your post for why you find ghostface unfun. most of what you stated that you dislike about ghostface was balance oriented. balance and interaction are closely connected. there is no rework that could be achieved that would remotely make him an effective killer for the point that you dislike about him.
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@TheArbiter said:
IDK Wesker in the easiest tier seems wrong imo, it is incredibly easy to miss with his power. Meanwhile Myers is literally hold M2
that what i was going to say. i think Myer's → Pig → Wraith → Trapper →Legion are easiest mechanical killers. it is hard to mess up their ability. clown and wesker…. are not easy. not on low level nor at high-level.
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but that what makes a strong killer. strong catch-up. if survivor do end up getting their way where bat form becomes very niche/irrelevant than will wolf form be omega buffed? will hug tech come back? i don't know but i feel like dracula will not be strong killer if his main form, bat form doesn't transition well into his other forms. that is like his entire gimmick/gameplay loop.
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skull merchant will be C-tier killer that is underpowered for next months for how long it takes for her to get rework. the current iteration of skull merchant is already good so once the killer stop getting d/c 24/7, I assume she'll just be revert to what she is now. All i hope is that she gets her haste back with claw traps. that is all I hope for. What would be hilarious is if skull merchant gets no d/c and bad kill-rate than they buff her and than everyone starts d/cing again. that would make me laugh. prime survivor entitlement. no free escape = d/c. what crazy logic.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Make Your Choice, basement hooks
Both of these involve proxy camping. She also can't force trades with MYC. Survivors just have to crouch and remove the trap before unhooking.
3-gen.
Her 3 gen is very overrated because once you get down to a 3 gen situation, survivors won't take normal routes. They can run into spots they normally wouldn't run, e.g. edge of map, to evade the traps because they know Hag doesn't have time to pursue them there. There are far too many routes for Hag to cover in a 3 gen. Hag also has no chase potential, so survivors can just keep resetting every time they get injured. Hag will eventually run out of regression events. 3 gen Hag is more so just slowly losing the game.
every killer that 3 gen is about losing the game slowly. that is why it is not viable to 3 gen. it was never viable to 3 gen. only thing a killer could do is STALL the game forever. that is exactly how skull merchant played who is another trapping killer that also 3 gens and that same thing for hag. same thing for trapper.
in order to solve this uninteresting gameplay, they simply put kick limit so that matches are not 50 minute long. With that being said, hag fixes her winning problems by using mint rag. It allows her to teleport on command and now her ability is no longer controlled by the survivor making mistakes. that is what makes hag weak. hag requires survivor to play bad.
proxy camping hag is easily countered by hook trading or avoiding her traps through crouching. if you run mint rag which is in my opinion what teleporting hag is balanced around, you don't need to wait for survivor to spring traps. you just teleport on command as soon as unhook happens and you can set like 3 traps so that if one get removed, you have other traps to tp and get free MYC hooks.
Hag 3 gen is also balanced around mint rag because you can set traps like you normally do for a web, if a survivor goes on a trap, you hit them, they run forward to reset, you use mint rag, teleport on them. down → hook them into 3 gen. the hag proxy camping gameplay begins. rince and repeat till all survivor are dead.
Hag isn't weak, she is just balanced around a singular add-on and singular play-style that has to be followed to a dime. you don't follow it, you suffer vs efficient teams. a lot of gameplay has been hard nerfed by indirect changes like anti-3 gen kick which is biggest nerf and +10 second timer on hooks. TBA for BVHR when they actually make kicking gens more viable and 3 gen more viable because it is not viable. camping is also not viable as whole. you need tunnel to make camping successful or slug to make camping successful and hag is weak at slugging and weak at tunneling/chasing.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814361#Comment_3814361
I'm not talking about balance; I agree the Ghost Face is going to perform terribly if he needs to wait for two power activations to get an exposed in every chase. I'm talking about how fun the power is to interact with, as per the thread.
it is hard to not talk about a character's balance when your listing part that you dislike about his ability. you list around 4 reasons to why you dislike him. Most of them being balance reasons. Let me create list for you.
1. Ghost Face is designed to be able to peek around corners, but survivors can't reveal him unless 30% of his body is visible.
2. He banks progress on his stalk even after being broken out of his power, while survivor reveal progress can easily be interrupted and reset, especially since the reveal mechanic itself is temperamental.
3. He can stalk you through objects you can't reveal him through and he can stalk you from a farther distance than you can reveal him from.
4. You can see him coming the whole way and in the time it took to reveal him you get halfway stalked.
In my post, i reply saying that ghostface reveal mechanic is at best delay to marking and not an ultimate counter. if we go individual on these points, i can easily answer why these balance mechanics are there in his ability. starting with first one. ghostface can stalk around corners while you can't reveal him because there has to leeway between stealth and you physically seeing him. revealing ghostface is all about positioning. the fact that you need exposed yourself and move outwards is part of the balance of him being successful at stealth in which in your post, you say he is not stealth.
Second point talks about storing stalk progression. as i stated in my first comment, the reveal mechanic is not hard counter to his stalk. it is delay to his stalk. Your asking for his balance to include a 100% free removal of all stalk just for revealing him. So in summary, if survivor is good, they never get fully stalked because 100% cleanse mark progression. wow. talk about worthless ability.
The 3rd point complains that stalk distance is greater then reveal distance. why is that? Well…. let's consider open maps. How do you expect ghostface to stealth if a map has almost no line of sight blockers? The only way for ghostface to stalk in that case is to out range his stalk with reveal distance. A lot of killer player have perception that ghostface is bad on outdoor maps with no line of sight blockers but that is in fact false. he has some advantage in those maps because no object block his stalk and he can simply out range the reveal. that is why mechanic is like that. your asking to change this balance such that reveal is shorter then stalk range. again, how would ghostface ever mark anyone in outdoor maps with no LOS blockers. you would brute force reveal through distance game.
the last point complains that his leaning stalk is faster then reveal. of course it is faster then reveal. if the stalking is slower then reveal then again, how do you mark anyone? you would brute force reveal every time.
If we changed balance of ghostface to make ghostface fun for you, there would be full proof way to never get marked vs GF. On top that, the mark is not that rewarding to begin with. it is just exposed at the end of the day. it is not that good.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814374#Comment_3814374
There's no chance that BHVR will make changes that make it easier for bad Pig players to cheese kills with head traps. That's why the OP is asking for head traps to not deactivate in chase. People want cheap garbage that has no counterplay.
You can't have super fast movement speed whilst in stealth, because bad players will just use it to cheese kills.
bad players already cheese kills with pig. it is design flaw in pig's ability. it is why i don't like reverse bear traps. their concept is inherently unfair and can be exploited by the killer player to get mori kills. this is why they have also taken measure to make it more difficult for pig to cheese killers with reverse bear traps by removing aura of jigsaw boxes. unfortunately, losing information doesn't remove ability to do said gameplay. it only increases skill-floor for a player optimize it. In other words, you can still do everything post-pig as before. it is just that pig's base-numbers on stealth, crouching and ambush dash are marginally better. the ability is still inadequate and not strong enough but it is step in right direction for buffing pig to be stronger killer without the cheese.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814076#Comment_3814076
i am pretty sure that finisher mori is meant to be a reward for getting 4k. you don't need to aim for 4k. you simply get a cool animation for succeeding naturally. it is not incentive's you to slug for 4k anymore then current system does.
Sure, it's unlikely BHVR want to encourage slugging for the 4k (and again, originally this "system" was designed in part precisely to rid us of that very flaw), it's more likely they want to make mori kills part of the base gameplay loop so as to sell custom moris more easily. But the effect this will have simply is that a lot of people will be more inclined to play hard to get that final mori kill, which encourages slugging for the 4k/standing on hatch.
from killer point of view, the killer spend a large portion of the game working hard to get the 2 players, so for them to lose at this point feels like robbery.
One of the survivors getting a hatch escape in that scenario does not make it a loss for the killer, and I personally have never felt "robbed" of anything if I just took the 3k and gave the last survivor a chance for a hatch escape (or gate escape by closing hatch). If anything the hunt for the hatch (or the gameplay for the gates) is much more exciting than slugging the second-to-last survivor and stupidly searching for the last survivor standing for minutes on end. But that's just me, I do know all too well that for others, getting that last kill too can be more important than the type of gameplay trying to get it yields, and they wouldn't even mind stalling the game for an hour for it, if they have to. It's just bad game design and can relatively easily be remedied.
a mechanic that did that was keys ahd the hatch. it didn't feel good to lose to a random item that had very little counter or no counter at all. i remember playing doctor one night, for like 10 matches during the time before keys got reworked and i am joking that for 6 matches in a row, 2 survivors escaped with a key. so i'd win every single round only to lose to an end game key.
Keys for hatch were obviously a bullshit mechanic in the past, but not only does 2 survivors escaping not constitute a loss either, but here again I personally never felt that bad - both me and the survivor players knew that they had cheesed out a "free" escape, I didn't feel like they had "won" or let alone outplayed me, so even if they were gloating about it or whatever I had no issue moving on not wasting another word or thought on it. Again, might just be me, but it obviously doesn't matter anymore anyway as they have since thankfully reworked keys and hatch.
my thought is that tru3ta1ent is somewhat right in this instance that the dbd game needs different gameplay loop as this gameplay problem is not interesting. he suggested that all pallet respawn and that killer can see remaining survivor with killer instinct with new item called pocket watch that increase or reduces the time for killer to win the match. if he fails, the exit gates open and the remaining survivors can escape.
an adaptation that could be an idea is using Halloween teleporting mechanic where a survivor must survive in specific world for certain amount of time to escape. sometimes should change about end game however no one has concluded what should be changed about the end game of dbd to make more fun for survivor and killer to play end game. the problems are clear but solution is not.
I agree, and have suggested more and less ambitious models for reworking these flawed endgame scenarios various times throughout the years, including similar "1v1 endgame chase" concepts. More recently here, for instance: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/412836/2v1-and-1v1-endgame-scenarios. What we have to unfortunately accept however is that more sophisticated or otherwise ambitious reworks of these things are just not realistic, as the example of how long it took them to "work" on this finishing mori "system" and what it ended up being also shows. For that reason, I am proposing very simple solutions that would already go a long way to improve the gameplay experience in these endgame scenarios.
Keys for hatch were obviously a bullshit mechanic in the past, but not only does 2 survivors escaping not constitute a loss either, but here again I personally never felt that bad - both me and the survivor players knew that they had cheesed out a "free" escape, I didn't feel like they had "won" or let alone outplayed me, so even if they were gloating about it or whatever I had no issue moving on not wasting another word or thought on it. Again, might just be me, but it obviously doesn't matter anymore anyway as they have since thankfully reworked keys and hatch.
that is the whole problem. in a well designed end-game, 2 survivor can escape and beat the killer as come-back. that is exactly what happen to my doctor games years ago where i was losing repetitively to keys. this was also before they added offerings to spawn hatch. the people using keys memorized hatch spawns on every map and would just get 2 man free escapes. when you get a loss by key once, it felt unearned but when you get a loss 6 times in a row by same mechanic, than that is form of frustration. an experience like that will entirely change your perception of hatch in general. you will adamantly dislike hatch as killer.
the summary is that come-back mechanics aren't fun for killer in a game like this which is why BVHR hasn't changed anything anything towards end game for long time. Hatch losses are like….. out of your control if you ignore said mechanic. in those 6 games, i did not slug for a 4k. I would hook people until 2 people die and on 2nd hook of the person dying, you'd just see escape symbol either right away or like 30 seconds after 2nd kill. The way BVHR gives you control over the hatch post-key nerf is by slugging 3rd person to deny exit gate rng and hatch rng. Survivor hate this mechanic. they do not like being slugged in first place. Having 4 minute game-extensions in the end game is not fun for survivor. so here we have these two problems where killer losing to a key item is unfun and survivor being slugged for 4 minutes because killer is aiming for a 4k to what they see as hatch being unfair mechanic. The keys and hatch may be nerfed but the whole mechanic and end-game interaction is still there. it went from survivor sided to killer sided.
I agree, and have suggested more and less ambitious models for reworking these flawed endgame scenarios various times throughout the years, including similar "1v1 endgame chase" concepts. More recently here, for instance: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/412836/2v1-and-1v1-endgame-scenarios. What we have to unfortunately accept however is that more sophisticated or otherwise ambitious reworks of these things are just not realistic, as the example of how long it took them to "work" on this finishing mori "system" and what it ended up being also shows. For that reason, I am proposing very simple solutions that would already go a long way to improve the gameplay experience in these endgame scenarios.
i would not say that end-game rework are not realistic. they may be more realistic now. it is simply question for what should be changed to resolve issue. The finisher mori mechanic is insight mechanic for what BVHR thinks about end game. To me, it seems like their vision for end game is that that if 3-4 survivors are alive, they want the game to be survivor sided. that is why we have like end-game base-kit BT for example. Sure there is some killer that are excellent hook defenders but in general, more killers when 3-4 survivor are alive will not be able to defend hooks outside of specific perks like STBFL. Most of the time, if both sides are equally skilled, end game is 4 man escape or 3 man escape with correct bodyblocking.
When a killer slugs all 4 survivors, the killer automatically wins. They reinforced this idea in the finisher mori system. The only problem is that in this same system for some reason, they also made it impossible to slug because unlimited 45 second unbreakable makes slugging a dead strategy.
these two ideas are what their current opinion is for end game. this is not something that they have explicit said. it is what they have explicit showed and done. There is saying, action speak louder then words and these are actions they've taken or wanted to take.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814018#Comment_3814018
At 3.8 there is room for the survivor to be creative and lose her. If she's 4.6 then it would be straight up impossible.
yeah maybe against new player but i am not losing the survivor ever. i know how to follow scratch marks and i understand survivor routing to a dime. the m/s only hindered pig from using her ability and makes her a poor stealth killer. buffing her stealth will elevate her power-level without making her too strong with reverse bear traps.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814195#Comment_3814195
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812890#Comment_3812890
For me it's the bugginess / clunkiness of the reveal mechanic. Ghost Face is designed to be able to peek around corners, but survivors can't reveal him unless 30% of his body is visible. He banks progress on his stalk even after being broken out of his power, while survivor reveal progress can easily be interrupted and reset, especially since the reveal mechanic itself is temperamental. He can stalk you through objects you can't reveal him through and he can stalk you from a farther distance than you can reveal him from.
The end result is that his power is eminently cheesable. You can see him coming the whole way and in the time it took to reveal him you get halfway stalked. He starts a chase with you, and then ~20 seconds letter he gets his power back and finishes the stalk in your face for a free exposed. And I say "free" because the whole point of the killer is to be rewarded for being stealthy, but that doesn't end up mattering much. It's more like exposed on a timer. He takes 1.5 seconds to reveal and takes 5 seconds to mark you or 2.5 seconds with a lean. Even if you start revealing quickly and don't get the reveal interrupted, it's a miracle if he can't mark you on the second power activation.
The end result is that interacting with his power feels horrendous.
i'd say his reveal is suppose at best prevent the initial hit from exposed before you get to a loop. a ghostface that doesn't mark and down in first ability is already failed ability. time-wise. it is 20 second minimum chase time extension. Previously, it was 30 seconds.
the most successful usage of ghostface's power is being mark someone and immediately down in a single usage of gf power. this is because you spend least amount of time. for example, you hook someone, you know a survivor is on gen, you exposed them, down. if we account for walking time because ghostface is immobile killer, that is 20 second time investment for a down. that is on either on par or greater time efficiency than top-tier killer chase killers in the game.
as soon as you fail power, the 20 second for a down is now 40 second for a down and often more because lots of loops for ghostface are not particular favourable for an experienced looper. so while his high is 20 second chase, his low is like 60 second or even game-losing chase. so even when he is successful at exposing you, the reward isn't great because his base-kit anti-loop is non-existent.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814054#Comment_3814054
I’ve at least tried to suggest something. I don’t agree with behaviors way of balancing. In 90% of the cases they don’t even try to make fair changes, they just straight up make things useless and they already did this long before skull merchant.
Slippery meat: How far do you think I should/could buff it? I want to make it better in soloq in swf it was already really good.
My idea of balance is strong killer perks against strong survivor perks. Behaviors idea of balancing is weak killer perks against weak survivors perks. I find the second way boring.
i think strong perk vs strong perk can lead to unfair occurring situations but these unfair situation are only perceptions of unfairness. for example deliverence in end game, a lot of killer will go salty when you hook a survivor, 2 people escape and the last guy on hook deliverance out of the trial for 4 man escape. i think it is important give yourself wiggle room for what unfair situations you accept as normal gameplay vs unfair situations that are detested. In the other words, What do you enjoy losing against?
Behaviors idea of balancing is weak killer perks against weak survivors perks. I find the second way boring.
I think weak vs weak goes into another problem. I am going call this problem functional balance. This is where strong aspect of the game are those that functionally strong by rule and not by number. an example of what i mean by that is like exhaustion perks. exhaustion perk are not strong numerically speaking but they're strong because of the function they provide to the survivor which is making distance. this can be extended let say… second chance perk like endurance where the rule is that a killer that hits a survivor with endurance suffers blade wipe cooldown and speed boost. the strength is in the implicit rules of the game, not the numbers. there is a lot of other examples fall into that category like game-delay perks adding additional flat time which becomes universal metric that all killers can use.
in my opinion, dumbing the game down by having weak perks makes the functional strong perk rise up and pushes away any numerical type perk to be relevant because any numerical perk becoming relevant will be weakened to not be numerically relevant. it is almost like hidden imbalance if that makes any sense. A lot of dbd is like that. nothing is explicitly imbalanced in your face, it is all like hidden strong. design strong.
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@zarr said:
Originally, this system included multiple functions (Last Standing with "heightened senses", basekit Unbreakable after 45 seconds, Finisher Mori if everyone else has escaped or is hooked or slugged) and was designed with the intention to create a more climactic, cinematic and satisfying end to matches, with the killer not having to go through the motions of "cleaning up" after already having won, and the survivors not being left to twiddle thumbs on the floor for minutes on end.
Now, more than two years after its initial tests (and probably around four years since its initial announcement as a plan for a feature), calling it a "system" is a little funny. What it has boiled down to is making the Cypress Mori basekit.
While that is well and neat and all to be able to see kill animations more frequently now, one major issue I see with this change is that it will encourage players to "slug for the 4k" much more often, a bad, boring aspect of the gameplay that should long have been addressed and that this precise "system" originally was meant to address. With the last survivor left promising a cool kill, many of the players that currently usually don't care to leave the second-to-last survivor lying around on the floor for minutes (or to refuse to kill them indefinitely, carrying them around and letting them wiggle) will start doing so more often, in order to find and prevent the last survivor from being able to escape.
Again, this yields bad and boring gameplay, with the slugged survivor being stuck with nothing to really do but watch as the hopeless charade plays out, the last survivor standing studying the rocks and bushes on the outskirts of the map as well as the insides of lockers, and the killer just searching for them. Often for up to 4 minutes, and potentially much more than that if the killer decides to pick up the slugged survivor before they bleed out, refusing to kill them.
I think at the very latest now with the implementation of the Finishing Mori feature, it is time to at the very least do one of two things: either give the second-to-last survivor the ability to call upon the Entity to take them should they end up in the dying state (which is very lore-appropriate anyway: they're literally out of hope to feed off of, there's no point for the Entity to prolong their stay in the trial), or give them the ability to recover from the dying state on their own in that case, forcing the killer to either actually kill them or risk them getting back up and having a chance to escape.
On a related note: The Finishing Mori feature will also encourage another really bad aspect of the endgame design, namely the "hatch standoff", wherein a killer will stand on the hatch and refuse to close it until the survivor reveals themselves (which the survivor will of course refuse to do), so as to not risk them even having a chance to open a gate and rob them of their cool kill animation. To remedy this issue, a simple adjustment could be to make it so that the hatch simply automatically closes after a certain amount of time.
i am pretty sure that finisher mori is meant to be a reward for getting 4k. you don't need to aim for 4k. you simply get a cool animation for succeeding naturally. it is not incentive's you to slug for 4k anymore then current system does.
slugging for 4k and 2 survivors alive is fundamental problem with dbd gameplay breaking down. from killer point of view, the killer spend a large portion of the game working hard to get the 2 players, so for them to lose at this point feels like robbery. a mechanic that did that was keys ahd the hatch. it didn't feel good to lose to a random item that had very little counter or no counter at all. i remember playing doctor one night, for like 10 matches during the time before keys got reworked and i am joking that for 6 matches in a row, 2 survivors escaped with a key. so i'd win every single round only to lose to an end game key.
from survivor point of view, the survivor believes that they don't have an opportunity to win when only 2 survivors are alive and 2 or more gens are incomplete. the result is that survivor is either forced to suicide to give another hatch or you get this extremely long stalemate game where killer can't find either survivor because they're not doing objective.
my thought is that tru3ta1ent is somewhat right in this instance that the dbd game needs different gameplay loop as this gameplay problem is not interesting. he suggested that all pallet respawn and that killer can see remaining survivor with killer instinct with new item called pocket watch that increase or reduces the time for killer to win the match. if he fails, the exit gates open and the remaining survivors can escape.
an adaptation that could be an idea is using Halloween teleporting mechanic where a survivor must survive in specific world for certain amount of time to escape. sometimes should change about end game however no one has concluded what should be changed about the end game of dbd to make more fun for survivor and killer to play end game. the problems are clear but solution is not.
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i'd say make normal hexes have more lives like undying. maybe not 5 lives because that was considered excessive but like 3 lives total.
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when reading the changes, the killer perk buffs are too good for bvhr for them to do it. strangely enough i don't have much disagree with survivor perk buffs except 1.
Slippery meat. I am pretty sure that with 8% luck increase with salty jar of lips and up the ante, your nearly guaranteed to unhook yourself. idk how healthy of gameplay it is for a perk to completely invalidate hook timer. right now it is 100% chance to unhook yourself in swf but it only occurs on start of hook timer, so technically killer can still camp. with that change, i think you can unhook yourself in like 3 attempts meaning that killer has to wait at least 30 seconds of the hook timer before survivor even attempts to unhook themselves. i suspect it could be little problematic.
going back to killer perk, i just don't think BVHR is competent in buffing killer perks beyond gen defence. I'd love to use monitor&abuse or battery included perk but BVHR just seems against any perk giving killer value. they're like… nerfing weave attunement in like next month so good luck on them buffing these suggested perk changes.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814015#Comment_3814015
Yeah, the main complaint about that hook is indeed how it allows for an easy camp. But as long as Boil Over exists, I think it is necessary.
i am of the opinion that slugging should exist as long it has plausible risk and win condition for killer.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Hag basically got obliterated by the increased hook timers since her main strategy was proxy camping. An extra 20 s of hook time on 1 survivor is very bad. As seen, her kill rate plummetted on patch 8.2.0 and she now sits near the bottom of kill rates. I seriously think Hag is the worst killer since she cannot outplay survivors and fully relies on them messing up and not knowing her counter play to win, which I explain here.
weren't you one of player that requested they nerf camping by increasing hook timers? they nerfed camping.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813637#Comment_3813637
How is being 4.6 when crouched a feel good change? That just makes it so she can chase when crouched and guarantee a head pop with no counterplay from the survivor.
she can already do that with her current movement speed.
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@Gardhome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813412#Comment_3813412
Whats wrong with John’s Medicare file? The only thing you need to do is play stealthy after unhooking
you hook survivor, gen pops, you hit survivor to proc BT → Survivor dies due inability search 4 boxes, made easier by your 4→6 trap limit and add-on stacks with tamper timer.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813989#Comment_3813989
I thought this hook existed specifically because of Boil Over.
i abuse that hook for camping now. it has made ormond such an easy map for killer to win on. ormond used to be way more challenging without that hook. now it is semi-free win. it is like eyrie of crows hook on top side that is super easy to camp.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Failed skill checks is just a bad trigger condition. It makes the perk really good against newer survivors and near useless against good survivors which is awful. It needs to have a completely different way of gaining tokens.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813995#Comment_3813995
There's no chance that it's intended, it's completely inconsistent with how PGTW works (it only counts as 1 event).
i am pretty sure that each regression event is meant to be separate. it is hard to tell whether undone is bugged or pop goes weasel is bugged. either way, undone is not a good perk. it would be good perk if it just worked on every skill-check hit by the survivor.
my impression of the perk is that it is meant to be powerful regression perk if survivors focus generators.
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@Crypticghoul said:
Honestly as long as they remove the Scout loadout from the previous iteration I'm looking forward to whatever they do. Dealing with 4 people having a 20 second cooldown sprint burst for everyone around them and pre-nerf Made for This felt so awful if you weren't playing Huntress.
scout was wall-hack person which is likely "pallet re-build" class. escapist was 3% haste and sprint burst every 20 seconds. apparently, escapist gets self-care as their bonus perk.
I am curious to what engineer, medic and scout get as bonus perks. I am going to take a guess that scout might get that Haddie perk that gives you flashlight from searching a chest. Medic might get something like plot twist where when they pick themselves up, they're healed. engineer…. maybe they get like Deadline where they get more skill-checks than other classes which would synergize with their 2% bonus skill-check innate perk and co-op gens does not incur gen penalty.
this is just me brainstorming their perks. they didn't say what other class bonus perks are, they only mentioned escapist's perk bonus perk.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3813574#Comment_3813574
Killers complain because their gameplay is not being rewarded - I mean I don't know how you can be so objectively wrong. That's the only reward I get playing this game. Every act I take, is a choice, and the consequence is entirely a result of my decisions. That is the most agency possible. If someone is consistently winning as Killer, they made the right decisions for their success. If someone is consistently losing as Killer, it unironically is 'skill dif git gud'. You want to talk about gameplay not being rewarded, you need look no further than soloq. Teammates denying your perks through ignorance or malice, baby Killers falsely claiming you were a SWF when you win, and nearly never winning anyways. I'd say that far and above is the actual unrewarded gameplay.
All SWF combined are enough to be a threat. - I mean I suppose when the bar is as low as 60/40, yeah duos getting 41% escape rates is a 'serious threat'. Or we could be less alarmist and simply realize every other game is pretty much balanced around 50/50 or 51/49, and should take the ~70% winrate (ignoring draws) that is a natural consequence of a 60% killrate with grace.
Competent Killers can't gain value from Wraith's ability in chase - I would hard disagree, not only do competent Killers make use of his power to help in chase, but only incompetent Killers don't. Even then, chase isn't the only factor in the game, but even then, being able to use his stealth to maneuver chases in the direction most favorable is an excellent chase use of power. Not to mention the macro effects of increased mobility and the free hits/pallet drops stealth provides. All of these (and more detailed effects, such as mobility for cutting off a rescue, preventing a gen pop, negating a post-hit speedboost) combine to make a skilled Wraith perform significantly better than a variety Killer hopping over to Wraith for funsies. That's the thing about so-called 'low-tier Killers', they actually require more skill, more optimization, and more game knowledge to leverage wins. If someone is playing Killer for free wins, they would never explore the break-even point for a Bubba saw charges/Demo Lunge/# of Clown bottles/etc. for Mobility, or even how loops play out differently when you approach from odd angles with stealth, or any of the other depth that nearly all Killers provide, but too many take the easy way out with the easy to use, quick to learn 'free win' Killers.
Competent Killers can't gain value from Wraith's ability in chase - I would hard disagree, not only do competent Killers make use of his power to help in chase, but only incompetent Killers don't.
you should watch dead dog saloon games vs wraith on competitive teams. Wraith nearly always loses if the team is strong. Hens i believe had a wraith player that dominated soloq with a build back when Eruption and Sloppy were better perks. He put his build up to the test on dead dog saloon and got demolished. Tru3ta1ent at one point also tested wraith to see if he was viable with hit & run when sloppy butcher+Thanatophobia were a thing. he got destroyed as well.
That's the thing about so-called 'low-tier Killers', they actually require more skill, more optimization, and more game knowledge to leverage wins.
That's entire problem. They don't actually require any skill because none of their skill matters. the only skill that matters is survivor being bad at the game. Middle of the road killers are controlled by survivor's inability to play the game.
Higher-tier killer potency varies by the killer's ability to play said killer and survivor's ability to make a competent player to make mistakes with said killer.
Killers complain because their gameplay is not being rewarded - I mean I don't know how you can be so objectively wrong. That's the only reward I get playing this game. Every act I take, is a choice, and the consequence is entirely a result of my decisions. That is the most agency possible.
What is if your choices don't matter and end result is always the same. 2-3 escapes every game at minimum?