Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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terrible idea.
First of all, the killer player that talk about trickster being worse are EXCLUSIVELY talking about a singular change.
Laceration meter changed from 8 → 6
This is single most talked about change for trickster main players. it is the fact that you take more knives to injure a survivor and some player feel extra need 2 hits required make the trickster feel weaker. This is especially true for regular throwing mode since regular throwing mode at base-kit is relatively slow
beyond this singular change, trickster is stronger in every way. there is no reason to fully revert all of trickster's positive changes. the only part that needs to be talked about is putting middle ground between old trickster and new trickster.
Currently, regular throwing mode feels weak. It is only use case is to hit knives just to acquire main event which is only version of throwing mode that feels fun and satisfying to use.
in my opinion, trickster does not need revert. he needs slightly increase in power-level in his regular throwing mode and slightly decrease in offensive power in main event. The goal should be that trickster has power-spikes in his main event but it is not only place where he is effective. his current design is that he is only feels enjoyable in main event and does not feel very good in regular throwing mode. something that old trickster player dislike in his current design/state.
3 reconcile changes would be something like following:
-Decreased Laceration meter from 8 →7
-Decreased throwing rate between throws from 3.0 →2.7[Changed Memento blades to only grant 5% throwing-rate increase from 10%).
-Main event throwing-rate decreased from 66% → 40%.
-Main event Knives required to trigger main event reduced from 8 →7(to keep same trigger time for main event).
in my opinion, that is killer point of view for trickster.
The survivor point of view is following:
Survivor feel like dodging blades is unrewarding because they side-step like 5 blades, get hit by 3 of them and since Laceration meter never depletes, as long trickster's aim is good, the survivor feels like they will eventually go down because trickster player can chip their health-state until they go down.
As a result, survivor would love that trickster be revert his weaker state because …. well they do not like playing vs trickster. The only mechanic that trickster has to reduce knife count inside chase is Laceration meter. The Laceration meter has been changed up and down many times.
it has hovered between 10 seconds and 15 seconds. I think survivor would prefer if Laceration meter could be reduced in chase however whenever trickster was losing laceration stacks mid-chase. it has always been frustrating experience for trickster player. I have no clue how it could be resolved but 15 seconds means that laceration meter almost never goes down.
-Laceration meter timer decreased from 15 →10 seconds.
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my thought is that fully reverting trickster is not good decision. they need reconsile survivor point of view when going against trickster and trickster's point of view repairing that parts of trickster that killer player finds less fun then previous version.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Honestly Thwack as a whole is just a completely flawed perk. It gives you information when you often don't need information because you're already chasing someone. Even when it had the aura reading it was really only any good on ranged killers and even then if you want aura reading in chase there are other perks that are better.
Either way, the perk is weaker than it was before the update and it needs a change. If nothing else, keep the tokens, revert the range back to 32 meters and add back the aura reading, so at least it is actually a better perk than it was before.
i think its biggest strength is scream factor because almost nobody runs calm spirit and the perk pierces distortion but distoration got nerfed so why bother. don't think it is flawed. just very specific.
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@Emeal said:
Nowhere to Hide is better than this perk in any and all cases that I can think of.
- Its silent.
- It does not warn the Survivor.
- It does not require anything.
- It helps you regress your objective.
Thwack is incredibly hopeful for a perk which quickly fades in comparison to alternatives.
- If I get DeadDog and want to clear the Saloon asap or in my first chase imma burn all 3 stacks.
- On maps without walls, Im supposed to leave pallets up and hope I can get a number on a Survivor later?
- There is no way I leave pallets up, Survivors always loop them again and again.
- I now have to manage tokens.
- So what do I get for having to do all this?
- It gives ANY Survivor a Warning that I'm coming and that I have location on them.
- It does not give aura reading anymore which is less precise.
- It breaks a pallet, nice.
- I have no clue, what is the light here I dont see it.
- I really hate to be negative, I am clueless.
I could think MAYBE see this perk is supposed to be used with Spirit Fury, but like, Knight got better perks for this situation too with Hubris.
If this perk is about "All those who stood in her path feared her mighty THWACK!" then make it give hindered to all who screams so I can at least catch up or something so people can fear me. How am I supposed to fear people so far away?
Actually Nerf Nowhere to Hide, THAT perk needs a token system.
i am pretty sure thwack! is only good for pig because of scream factor. the ability interrupt pig boxes. they likely just nerfed the perk to make sure pig can't utilize it to mori people. i still got a mori with it on dead dog saloon. it is whatever i guess.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819570#Comment_3819570
No? Fogwise can activate multiple times over the course of a repair. Poised you'd have to go and touch a different generator.
Even with this buff idea Fogwise would still be better imo.
currently, i think the survivor perk are gaining too much value compare killer perks. Like why is Poised just a better version of killer perk lethal pursuer? imagine if lethal pursuer would show you aura at the start of trial and than every time a gen get completed, it shows aura of all survivors for like 3 seconds.
I don't get it. the dev are just weird. it is like they're designing killer-tier strong perks as survivor perks. granted the survivor aren't using the perks but still.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819541#Comment_3819541
And I bump just into everything when playing him … anything, BUT survivors. I know, I know, thats definitely a skill issue, but I don`t enjoy his playstyle enough that I would spend hours on hours on playing him. As you said, he isn`t bad, but he still needs lots of practise and isn`t just plug and kill. You can't automatically snowball with him, you still need to hit home this angry swings of his kanabo/tetsubo!
i have had games as Oni where i activate my ability, down survivor in 1 dash, 2 dash 3 dash, extremely fast. like 20 second chase and i pick them up and hook them. I have tried playing for hooks as Oni and i'd have games where 2 survivor still escape where i got like 9 hooks.
I have also tried classical slugging Oni where you slug people where i'd continuously down 2 survivors every single demon fury and still I'd still have games where 2 people escape. i don't think i have ever had any games as Oni where all 4 survivors escaped or 3 people escaped after i got good with him but i don't think he's consistent killer. he's hit or miss.
sometimes you can lose like 4 gens as Oni, survivor make like 2-3 mistakes back to back, you down 3 people with Oni demon fury, you find last person down them, and you win. Oni's power is like NOED. he sometimes win games that look impossible to win and i think that is why people rate him highly because you can pull wins that were originally losses but it is more of mixture of luck and correct play.
I think strong Oni play is learning to proxy camp hooks effectively with his power and like tunneling people with demon fury at correct time but i find Oni to be SIGNIFICANTLY less fun to play if played like this. as a result, i don't enjoy playing Oni as much these days. I don't like being forced to proxy camp to get wins with his ability vs high-level teams. I like being able to use his ability proactively and pressure the map but at same time, i don't think he's good enough to do that and win consistently if your good at him and make like flawless plays. You have to use strategy with his ability to have any form of consistency vs top teams. that strategy takes fun away from him which is why i think he's overrated. when i play vs strong Oni's players, they tend to have same type of matches where they're like barely getting 2 kills vs like soloq survivors. If Oni needed less strategy, less proxy camping and could win by proactively pressuring the map vs pinnacle top survivors, i'd rate him much higher of a killer. some people just rate him off proxy-camping, slugging people near hook and tunneling people off-hook as high-tier and i guess that's alright if you enjoy that type of gameplay.
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@VantaNite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819554#Comment_3819554
That's just not true though. Killers are not just mindless robots. Once a game reaches a certain point, chasing a survivor that hasn't been hooked and trying to get 1 hook on each survivor just isnt worth it. Even in games where nobody runs distortion you'll almost always have one guy that has less hooks then the rest because unless the killer has the advantage already, its not worth spreading your hooks out between all 4 players.
Your argument's really just an excuse to explain why killers dont hook all 4 survivors equally, which even in a perfect world they would never do.
exactly. it isn't worth it which is why killer will tunnel because chasing fresh hook has no value. the strength in aura perks is being able to find survivors that you want and ignore the survivors you don't want. that is what makes distortion really good. if a killer doesn't realize that you have distortion, they may attempt to hook you. chase another person and than attempt to use an aura perk to find you but than realize that they can't find that survivor so they just waste time hooking someone that they can't find to kill them while doing gens in background. this forces killer spread hooks and have some hook will become wasted time sinks.
Your argument's really just an excuse to explain why killers dont hook all 4 survivors equally, which even in a perfect world they would never do.
right, but if survivor play stealthy, survivor can force you to hook survivors more equally because killer physically cannot find anyone other than fresh hook people and if they attempt to use a perk to find other players…. it is blocked by distortion. What killer usually do against this type of hide & seek gameplay is they hard-tunnel off hook. you can't hide & seek if a killer is proxy camping hooks and than hard-tunneling you out of the game. in any case, distortion has already been nerfed. it is no longer good for this tactical spread-hook gameplay. it is more of chasing perk to block aura reading in chase.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819499#Comment_3819499
The killer in this hypothetical is roaming around, not taking chase until they find someone with hook states. That's not tunneling. If they were tunneling they never would have lost contact with the person they want out of the game. In your scenario the other survivors are just doing all the gens while the killer aimlessly roams around in the hope they find the person they want.
there is two types of tunneling in the game. soft-tunneling and hard-tunneling. hard-tunneling is tunneling that is often done after a hook save or after a slug save. soft-tunneling is selectively hooking people and ignoring everyone else. Distortion protected survivor against Soft-tunneling which would often force the killer to spread hook inefficiently and lose because they can't find right people due to their aura perks being blocked.
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because he isn't overpowered. i'd say he is middle of the road. very middle. i think he would be higher tier if he wasn't punished for slugging as hard and he didn't burn out/run out of red orbs on the map for using his power. he has potencial to be top 3 killer but his numbers aren't there.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
The state she was in before was horrid, as was her original state.
She's never been well designed, the only thing that's flipped is the side that has to suffer when she's in a match. Not excusing it —objectively her rework is bad and unfair to those that like her — but I don't think this sets any sort of precedent. Skull Merchant is an exceptional case.
what no. skull merchant was fun before rework. now she's incapable of winning vs good players because of nerfs. bad player d/c and complain/whine about killer. BVHR changes killer. that is just how it has always been. there was nothing wrong with other version of skull merchant. she was decently strong when played well and fun to use as killer. now she is weaker than before and a lot less fun to play because using power is unrewarding. it is not rewarding to place traps/drones anymore. claws traps don't have enough potency. hopefully rework changes that, whenever that is.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818414#Comment_3818414
How did Distortion protect you from tunneling? If you are unhooked, the killer doesn't need to see your aura to tunnel you since you're injured anyway. Also OTR would be a better choice if we are talking anti tunnel perks.
This makes zero sense.
the killer will not chase any survivors. they'll use an aura perk like nowhere to hide and just kick gens until they find person on death hook or closer to hook. it does make sense if you play killer efficiently. distortion would allow survivor to hide themselves from aura perks so that they are not chased.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819077#Comment_3819077
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819081#Comment_3819081
Ty both! I never knew the count down timer could be affected by anything lol. Ty!
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819070#Comment_3819070
Apologies, I didn't see your discussion on this.
That said, we can now! I'm a bit skeptical this is a good change. When players state things like "I should get to do my 3x 4% chances even though everyone was on hook', we get met with 'The game is over then, you've already lost.'
Blood Warden already has a few tricks to make it pretty oppressive. Done right, there's nothing survivors can do but wait to die.
Since this is possible, buffing the timer only increases this. We already have to 'wait and die' because we get bled out all the time. I'm personally against this change. Thoughts?
it was 2 weeks ago i posted about blood warden. i was trying to use it on killer because i got the perk on chaos shuffle but it is just weak. idk what to say. almost all killer perk feel like they have no numbers. a lot of killer perk feel like they'd be a lot better with just like a number tweak up or something. there is just not many notable killer perk tweaks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/428571/would-blood-warden-be-too-strong-at-90-seconds-of-timer#latest
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819093#Comment_3819093
Shes a lot more fun to play against than legion…She has nothing to her kit now. How hard can it be?
the d/c won't stop instantly, it takes time. over-time, they'll take a skull merchant match, realize that the trial wasn't that bad and more matches vs skull merchant will be played on average…. over 1/3 of being d/c's.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819070#Comment_3819070
Does it take the countdown 2 minutes to expire once the doors are open?
yes but when someone is hooked, the timer speed is halved. you get 30 second of gate blocking. that is why the perk is pathetically bad at getting kills in egc timer. the problem is that the timer is so poor that it isn't better then no way out at delaying the escape and you barely have time to chase people in end game when it does activate.
all this does not include the varies counter-plays…. to the perk like… Plot twist, 99% exit gates, leaving early before person is hooked. reward isn't good and these counter-plays make the perk worse.
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i suggested they buff it to 90 seconds, no one disagreed in my discussion in regards to 90 second blood warden.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818343#Comment_3818343
Hooks require a commitment from the Killer, and provide an opportunity to rescue the Survivor through things like stuns/blinds/sabotages. Hooks force a stricter time-limit on other survivors to perform a rescue before the hooked survivor gets closer to death. You can also "bleed out faster" on Hook if you so choose, and there's a possibility of a self-unhook/"pickup". Hooks have more presentation that slugging. There is more engagement and spectacle with the process of Hooking than just being left on the ground like an afterthought.
I think that's why Hooks are considered ok compared to slugging, which comes across as disrespectful, boring, and in extreme cases much longer lasting than a Hook.
Hooks require a commitment from the Killer, and provide an opportunity to rescue the Survivor through things like stuns/blinds/sabotages.
Don't you think this a problem for killer? A lot of killer dislike this aspect of gameplay and actively found it unfun. Otz specific had interview tru3 awhile back where he said that he used like altruism actions from survivors that would encourage protecting teammates and keeping the team alive. After his 2nd interview, He stated that he really disliked altruism and found that when survivors were successful at doing these actions, they made match less fun for him. Many killer agree with this which is why perks like Background player and For the people+Buckle up received nerfs.
Beyond fun factor, the killer is generally the role that has invisible clock for how long until they lose all gens and survivors are able escape. from a balance perceptive, survivors succeed at any of those actions likely one of easiest way to slant a match into survivors favor. these actions being strong or successful promote slugging further.
Hooks force a stricter time-limit on other survivors to perform a rescue before the hooked survivor gets closer to death.
This aspect has lead to many survivors dislike camping to the point that strict timer is becoming less and less of factor. it is almost like it is more rude to killer to force second stages.
You can also "bleed out faster" on Hook if you so choose, and there's a possibility of a self-unhook/"pickup".
Another point of contention and frustration. Teammates killing themselves on hook and going next. A way to scapegoat the D/C penalty. Not very fun for survivor especially if your on that team.
I think that's why Hooks are considered ok compared to slugging, which comes across as disrespectful, boring, and in extreme cases much longer lasting than a Hook.
i think the main points of contention that survivor use towards slugging is slugging in end game for 3k to get 4k and that toxic form of slugging which is just there to waste survivor time and annoy the survivor. the survivor that hate all form of slugging likely hate slugging because it contributes to them losing. it is likely same reason why many survivor dislike tunneling for same reason because it contributes to survivors losing. for all these reasons, survivor keep pushing base-kit unbreakable.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818828#Comment_3818828
A perk that is designed for that particular purpose is unhealthy and should not exist.
… yes it should. instant downs exist in dbd and deny hooks. the perk has severe reduced cooldown to prevent perks like Mettle of Man or Dead hard from eating the perk.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
So a perk that only works for camping and denying hook trades and is useless for everything else? No thanks.
i mean, many perk are design to be good at one particular aspect and not good for other aspects. If you want generic chase survivor shorter cooldown benefit then this perk already exists. it is called STBFL.
This perk is designed to combat leaving survivors on hook for 69 seconds and denying one for one hook trades that favor survivor.
@Caiman said:
A one-time super-camp perk? Why?
why not?
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818779#Comment_3818779
Well I don't think I was trying to make a point that slugging was something I'm trying to get rid of... which is normally the point being made in regards to slugging not being "a normal part of the gameplay loop". The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
I of course understand the concept of slugging for pressure, and don't think I have made any suggestion here that significantly reduces the slowdown and pressure of slugging... if you think I have done otherwise, if you want to point to it then I'd be happy to discuss it rather argue over abstract concepts.
Regarding agency I said being able to attempt unhooks/ suicide for hatch was one aspect...
The actual main point of agency I made is, the short time frame requires the player to stay aware of the match situation... and doing so means you're formulating decisions on what to do when you come off hook. This decision making is often something you actually get to act upon on hook, since while on hook you are effectively "safe" from the killer, and the usual outcome is you do get unhooked.
The same is not true of being slugged. You are down for 4 minutes potentially, you have 0 ability to decide anything, you are not "safe", and thus your investment in keeping up with the match is often not rewarded. Often while slugged you will watch your teammates get slugged with nothing you can do except watch, and if you get picked up you tend to get immediately slugged back down again. The usual outcome however is the killer eventually picks you up and hooks you anyway. In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
All suggestions I've made here give a player who is excessively slugged something to do. None of it is strong, and is far from being problematic as I can see.
If I'm saying anything that is bad faith or illogical do please tell me, cause I don't think I'm making an unreasonable point...
The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
The killer is advancing their objective. it is just very slow. it is like having 1 hook and it lasts 4 minutes. When you slugged on the floor, your safe on the floor as well. in fact one of major issues behind slugging for killer is how killer cannot advance or speed-up the objective of slugging. With hooks, the killer can advance hooks faster by tunneling and re-hooking survivors but this relies on survivor to save teammate and farm them off hook. with slugging, there is no conceivable way to finish objective faster for killer. It is wait 4 minutes and that is it all.
I think that is one of reasons why pure slugging feels so ineffective for killer. the survivor can pick-up survivors over and over and killer cannot speed-up said death.
In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
The survivor has all power to manipulate and use slugging as boon. It is the killer that has no power within slugging. that is why killer hook survivors because it gives them more control speed up death of said survivor but over-time… this is becoming less and less true with longer hook-states. hooks are becoming like slugging where killer is not getting much reward for hooking and they're wasting time hooking since it is time sink. survivor can leave other survivors on hooks for 70 seconds which is long time and than one for one trade. slugging is similar except it is 4 minutes long…. which might as well just be all gens done.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818801#Comment_3818801
Ahh, I see. Well, that should probably be fixed. Although I must say, it's nice seeing a Chucky do actual flicks again.
I am not sure what he is doing to uncap his flick in first clip. maybe he's doing that blight J-flick tech where he is uncapped his sensitive to 99999 which is allowing him to over-turn the sensitive for very brief moment. They did something for Blight to fix this tech but forgot to implement thing fix to Chucky's S&D. So likely, this will be fixed.
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@Xernoton said:
I'm confused. How does that even work? They hard capped his turning last time I checked, so I genuinely have no clue what is even going on.
he's somehow canceling vault animation of scamper and than using bounce from vaulting backwards to glide along the wall. it is like that bug that legion used to have in feral frenzy where you could vault a window and then double vault back a window. he is doing that but with chucky's scamper. bug seems to somewhat bugging out his turning rate after he performs the exploit.
that's pretty crazy. I have never seen that. pretty funny that scamper is only useful when the player has to exploits and glitches to make it relevant.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818343#Comment_3818343
I do understand your point, and you are both correct and incorrect.
Being hooked is certainly comparable to being slugged, and a hooked player has substantially less agency than standing, but there are 2 key differences that give it more agency vs. being slugged: -
- The hooked player still has agency in the form of unhook attempts to try and escape or sacrifice themselves. The player can still have meaningful input into the events of the trial.
- The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
This means that a player who is hooked is still engaged in the trial and needs to retain knowledge of the current situation, such as gens repaired, survivor state, killer position, perks in play, etc, etc. Using that information, the player has the agency to decide to take the risk of an unhook, or die for hatch. This obviously comes with the problem of quitting, but assuming the player can be trusted not to abuse the mechanism (which they sadly can't), the point is the player is very much engaged in the trial and still CAN make meaningful decisions. Their engagement is often rewarded after being saved, unhooking themselves, or sacrificing themselves to accept a loss for the potential benefit of teammate.
This was my original point, you don't need to have good decisions to make, but you do need decisions. A hooked player has decisions and needs to remain vigilant in their assessment of the trial state.
A slugged player on the other hand has significantly less agency. Without appropriate perks: -
- They can not possibly save themselves.
- They can not sacrifice themselves for hatch.
- They can barely move so escaping the killer and reaching anywhere is very unlikely, as well as the fact they cannot partake in any other aspects of the trial.
- They are stuck in this state for 4 minutes.
This means that their agency, especially in regards to being slugged for the 4k, is basically non existent. If another team member is alive and not being chased they have some agency is regards to move or recover, but they themselves move so slow there is still effectively no decision for them to make 99% of the time. If no other team member is available, there is genuinley nothing to do, no way to meaningfully affect the trial from this point on. Compared to being hooked, remaining invested in the trial is more frequently punished by being picked up by the killer anyway, slapped back down as you stand up even more so in the case of being 4k slugged because that effort is 99. 9% of the time wasted effort. This is the fundamental difference between being hooked and being slugged.
Obviously I believe survivors being slugged in the trial should basically play out the same as it does now most of the time. The killer won that chase, and shouldn't be punished for doing so. I would of course be vehemently against basekit Unbreakable.
I am also against giving an option to quit as a slugged player like being hooked does, as it is against the killers objectives to bleed out a survivor, it is not considered a "kill", and of course I do believe the killer should have a right to go for the 4k without having to gamble on hatch. However with that ethos, short of allowing a player to sacrifice themselves for hatch, the slugged player needs something else to do rather than just wait to lose...
... and in that regard I feel this very conservative set of basekit abilities makes the whole idea of slugging, and especially slugging for the 4k much more interesting for everyone involved.
The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
every time i read posts like this, first part that always ticks me off is the "Not part of gameplay loop". Slugging IS part of normal gameplay loop. in fact, it is so much part of normal gameplay loop that it is impossible to not be slugged any given in trial as long you lose the chase as the survivor. even if it only few seconds on average that you stay on the floor after being knocked down, that is still part of slugging process.
Second part to talk about is… this concept of agency. The only form of agency that hooking allows which isn't good agency is killing yourself on hook. self-suicide. if only important part of agency is giving up on hook, than we seriously have to consider like the leave match option and d/c penalty because d/c/leave from the game is greatest form of agency in regards to that.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818464#Comment_3818464
You know I actually had an idea similar to that?
Invocation: Fragile Recreation
By channeling the power of the Entity itself, you can recreate some of the tools it provided to you.
When in the basement near the circle, press the Ability Button to begin the Invocation.
Invocations take 60 seconds. Other Survivors will see your aura during this and can join the ongoing interaction.
Once the Invocation is completed:
• You become Injured and Broken for the rest of the trial.
• You gain 2 charges of Fragile Recreation.If a survivor joins the Invocation process for more than 20 seconds, they will get a charge of Fragile Recreation once the Invocation is finished.
Completing the invocation disables the perk for all survivors.
Fragile Recreation becomes active when near a broken pallet or breakable wall . Pressing the Active Abillity Button causes the pallet/breakable wall to rebuild itself. Fragile Recreation has a 45 second cooldown.
It's just a concept, of course.
i don't think they'd give you control to choose which pallet are re-build. in 2vs8, they give full control to re-build pallet because there is two killers but in 1vs4, they would not give you the control to choose which pallet is re-build. it is either random to avoid a player re-build like shack pallet 4 times or jungle gym pallets or All pallets only once.
The negative will not be the same as Weaving spiders. Maybe they'd put something like, your aura is revealed to the killer for the entire match. there is like various negatives they can put, permanent super oblivious that also mask lullabies like Light out mode, -repair speed, permanent hindered, a large permanent decrease to vaulting speed like -30%, -1 hook state, faster bleed out/faster hook regression speed. I am sure there is other negatives that could been explored.
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I think if they ever add a pallet re-build perk, it is going to be invocation perk.
The invocation perk could either be that you re-build all pallets once per trial or it could be a perk where every 90 second, a random pallet is re-build and it keeps re-building 1 random pallet per 90 seconds after finishing invocation.
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i forgot what precise one of their reddits AMA were but i believe they said something like soloq has same odds to win as SWF and that Soloq loses because they do not want to work together.
I am not sure what that was suppose to mean but what does that have to do with teammates seeing each others perks or teammates seeing each other's aura like base-kit bond in like 24 meters? that is what i don't get about that corporate answer.
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@Skillfulstone said:
It was nerfed because a bunch of cowards were using it to hide all match and Survivors relentlessly complained about those few bad apples which made the majority of people using it (most of which were newcomers/casuals that knew that they weren't that good in chase so tried to focus on gens in order to be useful) lose the only reliable defense against aura-reading.
Ironically an indirect Nurse and Huntress buff. Will just make people use gen-speed perks instead, cowards will simply spend even more time in lockers. Nothing was fixed, a perk was killed and changed in the wrong way again and the game is now even less newcomer/casual-friendly than before.
i believe dev exclusively said in interview that it was nerfed because 1 perk was making aura perks provide no value for no effort. don't think they mention hiding anywhere. It is pretty much free buff to tunneling.
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11:30-12:12 made me chuckle a bit when he says, "try new perks or configurations". I think all licenses would be fine with other killers acts on behalf of dbd gameplay loop. as he says, it is more of technical coding challenges. Like having Xenomorph and Plague be in same trial given that Fountains need to spawn and Xenomorph tunnels need to spawn. that is a lot of objects on maps. I'm sure they'll make it work somehow but it is going take a while to code that stuff into 2vs8.
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eh i'd say wraith needs less time for de-cloaking. 2.5 second is too long of cast time and he could use a little bump in speed duration.
2.5 →2.00 to uncloak
1.00 → 1.5 second speed boost.
i think these two parameters are reason why wraith feels like m1 killer in loops with no chase ability. slowed for too long+speed-boosts is too short.
i would give wraith an add-on that decreases his attack cooldown by -20% if he successfully hits someone after uncloaking. it would help wraith in scenerio's where players body block hits for wraith and spam healing perks making him unable to get downs. the thing is, i almost feel like these attack cooldown's should just be base-kit thing for all killers.
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haha, them buffing doctor for real? na.
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@VantaNite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818063#Comment_3818063
That's not true though. They can attempt to unhook themselves in first, so they'll judge and act if teammates don't come help, and in second you have constant skill checks that if not completed will kill you. It may not be the most engaging, but it's more interactive than just crawling for the sake of crawling. All agency is taken from your hands and you're just forced to either be bled out be rescued by someone who may not even come. At least on hook after your agency is taken you'll be dead in half the time and killers that wanna troll cant just keep picking you up then knocking you again just to extend your time in match. I had a killer who completely dominated the match and just cycled the slug timer between us. Let one of us nearly bleed out then knock the other picking the near dead one back up. Once the killer takes control of the last two survivors he can extend the game brutally long if he wants to. Once the last survivors nearly bled he can now just close the hatch pick him up and block the exit gates until he's dead.
All agency is taken from your hands and you're just forced to either be bled out be rescued by someone who may not even come.
this sentence right here can be 100% copied, 1:1 for hooks. this was my point.
killers that wanna troll cant just keep picking you up then knocking you again just to extend your time in match
that is toxic version of using slugging. killers used to have a name in old days for survivors that did not end the game and would purposely spend time abusing infinity loops because during that time, killer vault 3x slower, there was no entity blockers and bloodlust did not exist. if it was a swf doing this, they were refer to as "Bully squads" because their entire objective was to bully and be toxic as possible to the killer. so you'd just have a survivor that macro click his flashlight 1000x times in your ear vaulting an infinity window over and over to just prologue the game forever. they removed all this stuff from survivor.
Unfortunately killer can do similar toxic behavior with slugging where they can pick you up, have you wiggle out, hit you on floor again and just waste your time. you'll have killer that nod and hump and have you do this painful 4 minute process for you to bleed out. None of this gameplay. the killer is using slugging to be annoying just like survivors used to use flashlights and unfair vaults to do same thing in the past. they never bother to try address this toxic killer gameplay…. well they tried address it once by introducing this "finisher" mori system which would grant survivors unlimited base-kit unbreakable every 45 seconds in order implement some instant mori system when all 4 survivors were on the floor. they attempt to address this in a negative light towards gameplay.
it's more interactive than just crawling for the sake of crawling.
The slugging that i am refer to is when killers are slugging and attempting kills survivors through slugging. Like actual gameplay related to slugging. Crawling around is still more gameplay than being perfectly stationary on a hook. in many ways, your moving position of hooks ever so slightly as you crawl forward to your teammates.
In most cases, when killer talk about slugging, they're not talking about toxic mindless slugging end game, they're usually talking about their early-game and mid-game slugging.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817730#Comment_3817730
I am trying the reworked Genetic Limits right now. With Mindbreaker sadly if survivors can still see you, they can leave gen before to remove the exhausted effect, but with Genetic Limits you only need to injure them, so they will always have the exhaustion effect.
Also Mindbreaker is 5 seconds while GL is 8 seconds so its more difficult to get rid of it in chase.
i prefer mindbreaker because it refreshes the exhaust timer. i find it most consistent because survivor cannot play around it as easily as genetic limits. genetic limits is just stay injured = empty perk slot. survivor will stay injured because iron will is better than health-states vs dracula.
if i was to use genetic limits, i'd use genetic limit+blood echo but this has a problem…. it costs 2 perks slots… where as mindbreaker costs 1 perk slot. I'll take 1 perk tax. really, i would just use stridor because… it actually does something that helpful for killer and is suppose counter unfun perk but bugged.
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@UndeddJester said:
To get to the point quickly, the problem of Slugging is actually quite simple...
A slugged player loses all player agency.
There is a principle held in all game design, be it board games, video games or even playground games. You should never take away players agency. This is why snakes and ladders, tic tac toe and other games like it are bad games... there is no player agency; there are often no decisions to make, or your decisions are largely dictate for you.
This is the real issue of Slugging, and what should actually be being addressed in discussions around it. A slugged player can only recover, or crawl around... there is nothing else they can do, they have no agency from this point in the match onwards until someone else picks them up for either side.
Even if the options are all unfavourable, that's fine. If a player still has things they can do and decisions to make, even at a significant disadvantage, Slugging is no longer anywhere near as much of a problem because the player still has agency.
An example Solution
If I were to go nuts with this point, here is a list of actions that could be added to basekit to the dying state.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with chests.
- Survivors in the dying state can swap items on the floor/in chests.
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys and maps, both for reading auras.
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys to open hatch.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with totems taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves, and cleanse the totem with a 30% action penalty. Note: Survivor is still in the dying state.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator, taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves on the generator and allowing them to repair the generator at a 30% action penalty. Note: Survivor is still in the dying state.
- A Survivor that has recovered to 95% or more in the dying state can press the rush button to move 50% faster, bleed out 50% faster, and make 50% more noise.
We can argue about which of these should make the cut and what else could be considered for inclusion, but the point is a player who is slugged should have player agency and decisions to make beyond recover or wait to be picked up.
Being on the hook, the survivor has 0 agency. they can physically do NOTHING except struggle or kill themselves faster.
Hooks have been in the game for ages and survivor have adopted hooks as "ok" gameplay. it is mystery to why slugging is not an ok gameplay loop during the match.
obviously, there is 4 man slugging in end game and the toxic type slugging…. like leaving survivors on the floor purposely when 1 survivor is alive and like doing very… questionable things like humping, constantly picking the survivor up and dropping them, wasting survivor time, the toxic type slugging but that is something that BVHR should try be address in these type of gameplay loops where killer doesn't abuse a gameplay mechanic for malicious intent…. kinda similar to how people would spam flashlight clicks to be toxic to the killer even though flashlight is a fine gameplay tool.
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because most of these, BVHR doesn't consider them as issues.
1-Nurse is not considered a balance problem in for BVHR
2-Chucky being able to use his ability is not a problem for BVHR.
3- Because it would make Queue times for killer miserable. The problem is here balance in killers in which BVHR doesn't care to fix because survivor fun > killer fun. who cares if killer are useless or ineffective?
4- They're working on fixing tunneling. In progress. Every patch slowly nerfs killer. trip trip trip.
5-They said this feature will take YEARS…. to implement.
6-Because BVHR logic on killer meta if they need change meta, they nerf the killer perk so killer stop using it. funny enough, when survivor need change meta, they just buff other perks.
7-Again, Not a problem. Many killer have complex powers.
8-When BVHR has to nerf a killer, its priority is shifted WAY UP almost instantly. When BVHR has to buff a killer, that is on backburner for AGES.
9-Unimportannt, add-on balance is often secondary. primary power is almost always focused on first.
10-They already make skins by their own devs. they do not need secondary dev to make good skins
11-To make mori's more prevalent in games.
12- Because they don't want survivors bleed out, They've always been against slugging. Why? Nobody knows. The irony is that some dev that worked on dbd have designed killer around slugging and bleed out yet balance so poor.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817488#Comment_3817488
"That could be fine if they weren't the
onlytile on that 1/4 of the map. But it's often harvester, into a knee-high super unsafe filler, into a hill."This is my big issue with this as well. Especially Coldwind now has super-unsafe Tiles and also almost none of those. And they were replacing Jungle Gyms, some of the safest tiles in the game. And I think it is just a big mistake to replace those structures 1:1, since they cannot compare.
I would be fine with unsafe Tiles like those BHVR is now going for. IF there would be loads of them and not just a sad Pallet in a giant deadzone.
arbitrary, they'd replace jungle gyms with less safe tiles but add more unsafe tiles. personally, i think coldwind is kinda strong still because the pallets that are good are free time wasters. it is very rare that i don't complete like 3 gens within like first 2 chases. those maps are type of maps where killer has bad early game but stronger late game because there is not infinity resources on the map. if they added any more pallets, you'd finish all gens in like first 3-4 chases.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
It is extremely powerful and the only reason why it isn't seeing more use is because it's not a gen regression perk
no, it is because you need put a time sink on kicking gens instead of pressuring survivors. in the 30 seconds that i spend kicking a gen, i could be downing a survivor. if the perk was automatic and it just gave me haste and undetectable when someone finishes a gen, more killer would use it. time is valuable on killer and kicking gens for killer is like survivor searching chests. it is waste of time.
you need massively rewarded as killer to kick gens….. like old eruption, old pop goes weasel, those are perk that were so rewarding that people took time sink to kick gens because reward was high enough. personally for me, if the perk isn't old eruption level of like 25s incap and 10% regression, i am not kicking gens. I am not sure what would make use machine learning. Maybe if it was like 20% haste than maybe it is worth it to kick gens and lose them but like i can't see this being a good strategy vs top swf's/solos. it just looks silly.
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@VibranToucan said:
The changes to the perk THWACK! made it worse on the killers that use it instead of better.
1. The reveal effect now also reveals Survivors to other Survivors. This means you are actually giving the enemy team the same information you are getting when using it.
2. It no longer activates on M2. In the past killers like Nemesis could use it effectively because breaking a pallet or wall isn't too much of a hassle if you use the tentacle. Now you need to use your M2, meaning it will be much slower on those killers.
Hey, at least pig can make survivor scream on pig boxes. great buff bvhr.
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can they buff thanatophobia back to have -4% healing penalty?
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Wait till rework i guess.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817121#Comment_3817121
spirit "literally can't see" and she's been one of the best killers for years despite several limitations on her power, none of which Dracula has.
spirit has a lot more precise information than dracula. her phase-walk therefore is a lot more reliable to land. Bat form dracula is easier to juke spirit. If you really hate Bat form that much, you could just Iron will vs bat form.
I literally use Mindbreaker right now as dracula because of how strong iron will is vs him. I really wish i could use Stridor but the perk doesn't work. it is still bugged. it is suppose give me sound when survivor use iron will but it does not.
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it was a build before and it was stronger before buff. now it is just weaker but nobody ran it before anyway so whatever.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816465#Comment_3816465
The perk is broken in 2 different senses. It's overpowered and NOT easy to counter, and its bugged. So you are doubly wrong. I basically consider any killer who brings the franklins weave combination, even before it was bugged, as having the same mentality as a cheater. If we're going to let killers have all the most broken ######### imaginable then bring back buckle up for the people, bring back the bugged potential energy. With this new update Bhvr. has.made the game even more killer sided and I don't see how Bhvr. will get the message unless survivors stop playing or just start killing themselves on first hook every game.
if it is so broken, why doesn't otz for example put it S-tier in tier list? why isn't every single killer running it if it is auto-winning every match?
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@[Deleted User] said:
its easy to counter, and its not broken.
It sounds more like "i dont like this perk, i dont think it should be in the game" to me.
I dont even play that often anymore and i still dont have any problems countering it.
the perk gives tangiable value to killer → need nerfs.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816549#Comment_3816549
It would reveal the killer's aura to the user for a single second.
Not really comparable to the Scout passive even remotely. Also not really any more effective to a SWF than a regular callout.
eye of belmont makes it 3 seconds. like i said, soloq doesn't use voice coms so perk is kinda weak but if the perk becomes strong enough, it's something that swf can abuse like OoO to neuter mindgames. Still Sight is a perk that can do that but nobody really uses it.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816422#Comment_3816422
For Christ's sake man, we just got a whole bunch of perks nerfed... I don't wanna even consider the whine that comes off that xD
I think it should be greats personally, because it would then naturally counter higher skilled players more than lower skilled players, Hyperfocus, BNPs, and other gen rush perks/playstyles, as well as have synergies with Overcharge and Oppression.
normals are better because very few people hit greats. for example at one point, gearhead used to only work great skill-checks and you would rarely see gens go yellow because….. i mean if you looked at stats, it is like 23% hit greats and 70% hit normal's. your battling 23% vs 70%.
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816416#Comment_3816416
No, I'm saying Sony is the problem. They wouldn't let it happen, ever. Sony is known to be very picky about this kind of stuff. Nick Cage and Lara don't have anything to do with Sony, but TLOU was originally a Ps exclusive.
judging from interview. i wouldn't be surprised if BVHR had some connections. I do not think it is out of the question. it is hard license to get but consider like RE which is video game horror and Lara… which isn't Horror but it is gaming, Last of us 1 is gaming horror. it is right into BVHR's interest to get said license considering the current license's.
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a buff that only makes swf stronger. if it works for allies than it becomes wall-hack on killer like scout class in 2vs8.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429516/new-killer-perk-idea
Isn’t this Freddy’s perk already? You just wrote % there instead of seconds.
freddy's perk adds flat amount of seconds, this perk multiplies the number of second by x0.4.
@Iron_Cutlass said:
Remember Me?
the obvious goal is to stack it with remember me.
@Khastrx said:
Possibly if it was limited to the obsession, or perhaps who isn't the obsession maybe, but even then it feels niche just as it is. You'd be going the entire match with one less perk until the gates were powered. Least with No Way Out you're being rewarded throughout the match to give increasing effects. A secondary effect might be needed...
maybe, i thought about making it hook based where you hook each survivor once, survivor suffer a -2% hindered effect if they have been hooked before exit gates are powered. the perk is meant to be stacked with remember me, No way out and this perk. I figured the perk would be too bloated and stack too well with Battery's included so I simply simplified the perk to its most bare bone effect.
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@WalanAke said:
Remove it, it's a terrible and unnecessary solution to a problem with a much simpler and MUCH easier to do to manage balance.
MAKE IT A HOLE IN THE WALL.
If you can add them to the Myers house, you can do it again here
no, that is going create god pallet which current new window open already does. all they need to do is move generator upwards such that you can repair from house structure.hallway. this gives survivor vantage point for viewing staircase, at very least, it won't create strong loops…
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@SkeletalElite said:
Mass bleedouts and slugging for the 4k have always been a thing but I've found since finisher mori was implemented people are slugging for the 4k more. It's a massive waste of time for the people being slugged and adding a way for the survivors to move onto the next match quicker would be a welcome quality of life change
but this has been problem before cypress mori. like cypress mori has been offering for years at this point. it is whole thing that survivor hide in the end game and killer slug in end game… because of like exit gate and hatch rng logic.
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@CammyChameleon said:
Our gen regression perks seem to be very limited and it would be nice to have more viable options again for some more variety.
I think what will make this perk viable is the following:
Survivor who hit good skill checks gives you 3 stacks (was missed skill checks)
Greats do not count
Each stack provides 1% gen regression + 1s of gen block time
You can hold 30 stacks at a time.
This would make it a perk that you can either choose to use when you have simply a few stacks for immediate pressure. Or let it build up over time for a good kick or two later on in the game.
Builds up over time seems like a cool idea for a gen perki think it would be hilarious if it had bigger charge cap like 50.
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@Aceislife said:
I doubt Sony would ever allow it, unfortunately.
i do not think it is out of question. it may very well happen. the trend is that they tend to have celebrity survivor that is solo survivor every year. they had nick cage, we got lara croft which is weird is but ok. Elodie could easily be stand-alone survivor and she fits way more than lara croft.
at same time, i can't really think of any perks she would have. just think of last of us 1, maybe a healing perk, a perk that allow you to craft something since last of us 1 was crafting focused and maybe something related to a perk that saves other people because she is mostly saving/helping Joel Miller in the story. an perk where when you unhook someone or pick someone off the ground, they have 50% healing progression.