Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@Labrac said:
They should AT LEAST revert the nerf to the uncloaking speed. If anyone remembers, this nerf was to compensate the buff to his cloaked MS and the buff to his post uncloak boost. Now the post uncloak boost is the same as before, so it makes sense to at least revert the nerf to the uncloaking speed.
Basekit Wraith is now worse than old Windstorm Wraith, they made him low tier again.
no that is not why it got changed. one of drawbacks of purple wind-storm which people asked to be base-kit is reduced movement when cloaking. they just did exactly what some killer asked for: base-kit purple windstorm.
he is still playable, he just was never good vs good players. no stealth killer ever was.
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@glitchboi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2627005#Comment_2627005
Yellow bottles can counter W meta and can help you get hits in certain tiles, people just don't use the yellow bottle enough to experiment with it. The yellow bottle's activation timer encourages Clowns to think of a strategy before the gas activates, removing the activation timer would make him less strategic and decrease his skill cap. I play Clown so I know what I'm talking about.
yellow bottle activation time encourages survivors to leave tiles and reroute back to those set tiles wasting ammo. this is why people complain about his basic ammo count being 4.
Activation time does not increase his skill-cap. He is always getting same reward which is ~12.5% speed boost for 5 seconds. It increases survivor skill-cap by giving more counter-play to the ability in which they do not need to defeat clown. It hinders his ability to get value from his ability.
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@glitchboi said:
As a Clown main, invigoration should not be instant. Place bottle on you, instantly speed up, cheese the hit. It would also decrease Clown's skill cap and make him 10 times more annoying to go against.
Also confetti is god tier, best meme add-on in the game, please keep it.
I don't think Hindered should make you slow vault, since it already forces medium vaults on windows which can be powerful if you know what you're doing.
I don't mind everything else though. In my opinion, invigoration should speed up the action speed of vaults and breaking pallets, as well as other actions.
how is it cheesing hit? throwing purple bottles, instantly slowdown survivor so you get a hit. right now there is barely any reason to use yellow over pink. change 3 would help him use both bottles at the same time. it would help him a lot at loops and between loops.
we can't have strong killers though that's illegal.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2625142#Comment_2625142
The recovery time is punishing on bad Nurses. I know you’ll say “good Nurse players don’t need 3 blinks”… well listen, good Nurse players can still make mistakes so the third blink helps make up for those instances. Also, a 3rd blink can be used after baiting out Dead Hard with the first 2 blinks.
That's exactly how I use third blink. on average, i miss about 10 blinks out of 40 blinks that i need land to win. with triple blink, I rarely miss any blinks now.
Triple blink effectively makes my blink accuracy near 100%. Ironically, you can still lose as nurse even when having near perfect blink accuracy due to gen speed. Its still not enough time to do 12 chase. that is the funny part. its also super useful for the 4... dead hard that most of my matches contain.
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killrate 2k/esc balance is so stupid especially in asymmetric game where the survivors are suppose endure hardship and are suppose to overcome hardship. high killrate killers are just easy to play killers that most killer player are good from low mechnical skill-cieling and most survivor players are bad vs which often leads to those killers being heavy noobstomp killers.
Pinhead has high skill-cieling with his gateway but it offers NO REWARD and it has no impact to his gameplay. Instead, his passive is everything about him, thus everyone is as good of pinhead as every other pinhead and most low mmr soloQ survivors have trouble completing 5 gens let alone a secondary objective of the box where as high MMR survivors can complete 5 gens easily and solve his box with not much trouble.
conceptually balancing killer for 2k/esc means that easier mechanical killers need to be brought down to survivor low MMR level which means that whenever those killers good players, they auto lose. If a killer is hard but they have high skill-ceiling, they can't have that either because that would mean that a killer is overperforming, so they put drawbacks like deathslinger so that you can't aim or try invest drawbacks like Billy overheat, invent cooldowns, reduce killer m/s, put terrible drawbacks on add-ons so that they're garbage all to remove any potential player skill in equation.
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@StarLost said:
It's rubbish.
This is yet another massive nerf for the sake of low level play without any consideration for intermediate/high level viability. Cenobite was already mid-tier at best.
That said, I can't think of any occasion where BHVR has changed an impending nerf based on forum feedback, so...yeah. I guess Cenobite is about to become another one of those killers that basically nobody plays.
Rarely anyone plays him now. I barely face him. BVHR doesn't play their game. they just look statistics and just make killer unplayable. He is like worst killer entire game now with no ability.
His passive will never activate, this was his only saving grace. 4vs1 slowdown. His chains are worse than not using it. Worst 1vs1 in the entire game. All his good add-ons are garbage now. The only add-on that gave him his chain ability worth using was engineer fang and now it decimates his power and makes it worse than Legion.
BVHR doesn't balance for high-level. they balance for low-level. their basic procedure for balance is look at killer killrates, look at pick-rates of the killer add-ons, nerf add-ons. that's how BVHR does things. little to zero consideration killers gameplay.
classic bvhr, he is best designed licensed killer in the game. 10/10 design, 0/10 balance.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2620510#Comment_2620510
There is a lot of circumstances where you can't avoid his saw. What if he has tinkerer, which a lot does, and they show up in an area where you don't have line of sight. He takes you to the basement and the survivor has already lost because of broken mechanics. It could be the best survivor in the game versing a new killer losing because the killer won't move. That's wrong to me, he desperately needs a nerf.
Since you mentioned decisive strike, if the developers say this is fair, why did they change decisive strike from a pre-hook use? There is way too much evidence that one side is balanced differently than the other and the game has become extremely unfair.
If you are allowed to only have 1 chance, then there must be a lot more ways to defend yourself before going on the hook.
sluzzy at it again. you got wraith changed and now your after Blight and Bubba with your hatred for tinkerer and ruin & undying. Maybe save generators that lack line of sight to the last or use these generators as bait? Be more aware of your teammates progressing generators. I don't even use Ruin & Undying anymore as I kept losing both perks 30 second into the match. Its probably because of all these COH users that keep converting all the totems.
Honestly, I wish i had some of survivor perks as killer, I'd like a perk that allows me to double my lunge distance by pressing E, a perk that grants exposed status effect whenever someone unhooks someone else with no distance restrictions and a perk like decisive strike where hooking one survivor pushes their hook state count by 2 instead of 1. The ability to reignite hex:ruin indefinitely would also be nice.
bubba camping hooks has been a thing ever since his release. like Kebak, said, killer will just find another easy instant down killer to confirmed one-two kills from facecamping. It is not bubba's problem that hooks are stationary with free regression and that standing next to a hook within 5 meters an instant down is rewarding. it is not fair to punish bubba players that try not to abuse facecamp strategies and actively go for 12 hooks. bubba, blight and nurse are only killers now a days that I actually fear as survivor with specific add-ons and only killers that I feel the game isn't auto-lose for killer where can I actually go for chases. i'd never play killer ever again if those killers were touched.
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@JohnWeak said:
We obviously all share the same experience. Sad that BHVR doesn't say anything about it, i mean we are waiting for answers and we want a clear roadmap of the known problems and the fixes the devs will bring. But we have nothing, not a single word about it, they really don't care.
new roadmap is Legion and Ghostface getting change. I hope Ghostface becomes more playable as he is was underwhelming killer ever since he came out. his add-on are trash, his stalking is a joke, he is m1 killer at loops, he get punished for hitting stalked targets. just a god awful killer. I hope ghostface change extremely significant improvements.
Legion is ok at his 4vs1. injure pressure but survivors little reason to heal vs him and he has no fear factor as his power is non-lethal so m1 at loops. I hope they reduce his cooldown when going out of feral frenzy from like 4 sec to like 1 second so he can down people out of position and I personally would like to see legion have lower TR like 16 TR like Myers so that staying injured has more risks as most people just stay injured vs his power and rush gens. I wonder if they will return legion's feral frenzy to down players like it used to with maybe some twists. low expectation for him.
killer is far unplayable, but the game is survivor favored most due to most powers killers being pretty bad at high MMR because most of killers are balanced for low to medium MMR. wraith wee bit op, ya know? deathslinger gun, unreactable, unfair! I think new killer PTB is like 9th and than 2 months passes so expect next mid chapter to be late January like Jan 25 or so. Don't really expect the game to change that much.
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"the issue here doesnt lie within the actual concept of the Emblem system, but rather with the way Ranks worked - it was just too easy to get and maintain them, meaning a vast majority of people ended up at the highest rank."
You realize that current MMR being kill and escapes is extremely simple right? your saying it was too easy in old system where as current system is EASIER than old system and yet matches are far more accurate (teammate wise for survivor) and killer skill-level wise. I'm actually very impressived for how good the killer players are at their killer when playing survivor. Difficult was definitely not the problem.
I will give an anecdotal game I had few days ago. It was vs Huntress. I had game where first survivor who did a chase got hooked in basement in 3 gen chase(fairely standard for high MMR). Another survivor tried to save the person in basement when huntress was camping, He went down, two people were in basement. I was around 60% done on 2nd gen. 3rd teammate tried to go next basement, realized it was impossible save, so he did gen with me, we had 1 gen left. Two people in basement died. He did a long chase, I finished last gen and opened exit gate and I escaped, He died and got 1 hooked.
If this was old emblem system, It would say everyone lost. Huntress with 3 kills lost, The person who escaped lost and person who did a great chase at the end lost equally as hard.
In new system, the killer actually wins which is true... 3 kills is killing most of the team, so therefore yes, killer did win. I think most people would agree with that. The two people in basement lost most MMR. 3rd person lost least and I gained MMR according system. Its really easy to see how new system beats old system in being able to judge results of a match.
The reason why matches were all over place before including teammates was because system was flawed at its core before because it could not judge results(win or loss in the match). The only problem current MMR system for survivor is that it does not take account team results.
For example, that game i escaped, I didn't win, the killer won. I could never win, only lose or draw since most of my team died, 2 people walking out of exit gate was never going to be happening in that game. A common occurrence now a days is 3 people escaping and the final person dying from killer facecamping. the one person who died, the game does not take into account that killer was billy with instant down camping a hook, so nobody could do a safe unhook save, therefore last person dies.
MMR for survivor is mostly accurate. its only pitfall is facecamping and EGC solo escapes. facecamping is dbd problem in balance and EGC solo escapes are mostly a problem with not having any team-rating. I think this can easily be solved that if more than 2 people escape, the survivors could get a draw in MMR, so last person who dies automatically from everyone leaving, they get a draw and if less two people escape, last person only gets a draw kinda like hatch escape. Killer MMR is super accurate. Its so accurate to the point that some killer players are surprised at the teams they're facing now a days. it makes me laugh.
I think only people that dislike new matchmaking are killers that enjoyed facing bad survivors. The level of play since MMR is much higher than it ever was compare old system on both sides.
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"Rank 1 was full of people of very varying skill levels. This means a Rank 1 game was usually a lot more chill than a high MMR game in the current system, due to a lot more mediocre players being present."
Do you not see the problem in this sentence? your saying that emblem system was more effective at calculating your skill but also saying that there were a ton of mediocre players at rank 1(the highest rank in entire game). Your asking for players to have discussion about the topic when your topic was easy to debunk in a single sentence. Top MMR/Rank should be top players. It is that simple.
MMR for survivor is super fun. Most of my teammate are really good. Most of killers on average get 1-3 hooks. I faced a spirit today that got 1 hook.... poor spirit, got balanced for casual players. The only games I lose is when I get poor teammates which I assume is matchnmaker placing me in lower MMR matches because of my high MMR from lack of high MMR killer players, so it gives weaker teammates to balance out lower killer MMR.
MMR is really sad because most of DBD is balanced casual brand new players to average bad survivors like Sluzzy with his 10% escape rate, so as result, most of killers are underwhelming often with unimpactful add-ons and large laundry list of worthless perks. Playing weaker killers is like watching paint dry up where most of your losses are out of your control. You have to accept losing to enjoy a lot of them now a days. With MMR, I feel like I can only play at top MMR when I am playing Nurse, Blight and Leatherface. Huntress and Doctor, I feel like I am on fence with these two killers because I feel like a lot of my matches with these two killers are really close to winning but barely losing. I wish I could play top mmr Oni, Clown, Trickster, Pinhead but game balance just isn't there.
Tl;DR top MMR killer is pretty dull from poor balancing :/
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wraith was overrated. never in the history of DBD has stealth killer ever been remotely powerful. never ever.
DBD has never have a single undetectable that is remotely good because stealth characters are noobstompers in almost every single video game. Casual players will always complain about them. In fact, I'd challenge them to ever make a decent undetectable stealth killer in the game.
The only reason to ever play wraith was all-seeing blood and now that is gone, Wraith is worse than he was before he got changed. What was the point of them even changing wraith if they just made him worse than he was before he got changed?
His lunge wasn't even good enough at most loops. if anything his lunge needed 0.25-0.5 extra more duration from previous duration to be effective at all loops in the chase for him to have gameplay at all loops. The game balanced around casuals so of course he became worse.
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@Yamaoka said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2607724#Comment_2607724
By that logic there's no skill in any killer other than Nurse because if a survivor makes no mistakes and has good rng on their side then pretty much no killer power will do anything.
The game is designed around misplays from the survivor side which isn't exactly a secret.
for m1 killers, yes. a lot of loops are safe. base-kit billy vs good survivors is just m1 killer that travels from point A to point B and can really only instant down survivors in deadzones. I think billy with charge time reducation add-ons has much higher skill-cap because survivors need to make reads for whether to drop pallets and make reads in relation to curving. The reduced charge time makes that survivors cannot abuse his low m/s in his chainsaw feathering and cannot hug corners around loops so efficiently to avoid his chainsaw completely. chainsaw feathering becomes a lot more of mindgame. they have to make reads off his chainsaw and allow billy to curve them in which he either misses or lands curves. Dropping pallets becomes a lot less effective as billy break pallets pretty quickly. with current charge time of 2.5 seconds and 1 second break, it takes longer for him to charge his chainsaw fully to break pallets(3.5 seconds) than it does a killer to kick break a pallet(2.5 seconds).
Many killers have a control of a chase in certain situations. Ranged killers have a lot of control over open loops and window loops. Demo shred and Victor's pounce have a lot of control on the chase. Blight has like 70% control of the chase where his lethal rush is deadly between loops and on most maps that allow him to pounce. Nurse is labeled as high skill because your as good at nurse as you are able to blink and it is on you to make mistakes in the chase as Nurse.
Basically if its on killer to mess up their ability, they're generally labeled as high skill and if survivors have full control over the effectiveness of the ability, than it is labeled as noobstomp ability. there are so many killers that fall into this line. Legion's feral frenzy is perfect example of this which is why he is labeled as trash killer. Legion's feral frenzy cannot down survivors and is only good at injuring survivors, thus his ability is only good against survivors that are uncomfortable at playing injured and make poor mistakes at loops when injured. there is no high-skill input that the legion player can exercise in to beat survivors that loop m1 killers well. The same can be said about tier 3 myers, Tier 3 myers vaults windows quickly, but if survivors avoid using windows and just use safe pallets, than there is no skill input that default myer tier 3 can input on the game in the chase. Clown and Freddy are other clear examples of low-tier killers, pre-drop safe pallets counters hindered ability if the loop is big enough. Stealth killers and trap-based killers get countered by SWF information and how their ability is ineffective against survivor teams that have good teamwork capacity.
Moral of the story, Anti-loop killers that can use their ability in most/all situations have higher skill-cap than killers that revolve on survivor misplays. This is why Nurse is labeled as high skill as she has most difficult anti-loop to use with highest pay-off if used correctly.
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@Yamaoka said:
Personally I really think it's...
Hillbilly: Keep in mind I'm talking skill ceiling. Anyone can obviously play him and 4k bad survivors who run in a straight line, won't try to dodge when you've closed the distance and will be out in the open all the time instead of chaining loops/tiles.
If you want to have a chance to chainsaw decent survivors however you will have to master chainsaw-curving which is -in my opinion- mechanically the most demanding skill in Dead By Daylight.
It's easy to mess up a chainsaw curve as it requires optimal distance to the survivor, optimal positioning, optimal feathering of the chainsaw and most importantly unreal reaction times as the curve window is like 0.2(?)seconds.
On top of that a messed up curve basically resets the entire chase due to the long stun/cooldown animation resulting in huge distance to the survivor.
These may be a couple good curves of mine but hitting these on a consistent basis probably takes ages compared to any other killer:
I know many people will think of Nurse but personally I think she merely has a high skill floor.
It obviously takes a while to understand her basics but once you do get the hang of her there's no specific thing you have to learn power-wise in order to be able to catch strong survivors.
So what's your opinions?
i do not think its high skill when it revolves around survivor making an error for killer to be successful.
survivor 1 is not using vantage points, Meg is suppose to be hugging the wall and reading red glow from either side. not being hesitating and waiting for curve to occur at mach 20 speed around corners.
Kate is camping an unsafe pallet and waiting for billy to chainsaw his 2.5 second charge on other side of loop in which billy is slowed when using his chainsaw. The smarter play is to wait for billy to charge his chainsaw for about 1.1~ seconds and than go around unsafe short side of the loop. Billy will be unable to make curve before survivor reaches end of short end of the loop and will be slowed for 1.1 seconds as you cannot cancel his chainsaw mid charge without either letting meter go down or purposely swing an m1 which will result in missed attack cooldown.
Survivor 3 is greeding pallets too hard. she is in range to be m1 by any killer and if your going greed pallets this hard without dead hard and if your going greed pallets this hard, you should at least make an effort to go on outsider part of the loop so that billy has to make predictions of whether he should curve inwords or outwards. The safer play is just dropping the pallet and getting a stun for free distance to next loop. Window loops are much superior vs billy than filler pallets.
How the survivor playing poorly on all 3 accounts revolves around killer having high skill-cap? Base-billy is noobstomper. he is designed around backrev instant down survivors out of position and curving survivors that make poor decision choices at loops. You will often face billy's with Lopros chains and Doom engravings and none of them are ever successful in curving good survivors with good movement.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Unfortunately, he is indeed pretty bad and realistically it is, not my opinion.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/34111QMCETI9/image.png
Probably he will have buffs in the future, he is really bad now
I mean people say trickster is easy-mode and that you can just miss 24/7 and still kill people. survivor mains that say that are so funny sometimes. trickster is hard as heck to play. even I miss like so many knives when survivors has good movement.
my main problems with trickster from playing him is that you spend so much time in throwing mode that your permanent m/s might as well be 96% which is really slow and other problem with him is that you have reload 24/7 now.
@FrostySeal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2603866#Comment_2603866
Except for the fact that I've been playing him since his PTB days, I'm not some new comer towards him. The only thing he has going for him is the fact that's he's a pub stomper and he's one of the best campers in the game. In high MMR survivors will round corners and put objects between you and them forcing you to hold W for a decent amount of time, then when you finally catch up to them, assuming they didn't go to a really strong loop against him, then you can finally start to go through their health state. Then after that whole chase is over, you will have at best used around 18 knives and at worst 30, either way you'll have to reload. He has a massive time efficency issue that isn't helped by anything other than his ability to camp.
Survivor's say he is ez mode. auto-win if you pick him. I mean he has 40 meter lullaby so of course people shift+W vs that. he moves so slow in throwing mode that you lose distance for throwing knives so using objects is easier from you being so slow. The joys of playing killer where using abilities is punishment. I have same ammo problems as you. its funny, they also nerfed his throwing rate add-ons which are like his only good add-ons.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2601075#Comment_2601075
No, the iridescent addons should not be the "strongest ones" It is unhealthy for game balance to do so. if you make them strong enough to be the "best" then there is no reason to use any other addon. If you don't then they become useless.
In general most addons are boring and they need to move away from the "make x think 10% better" addons which are just pointless and boring. They need to make more addons that fundamentally change how a killer is played.
I think they use these add-ons for balance purposes. add-on allow you to have many versions of same killer in a game. you can have weak killer, a average killer and super empowered killer depending on what rarity the killer uses add-ons.
Nurse can be base-kit which kinda weak from hold-W(still better than a lot of other killers), recovery+range which is suppose to be her average and 3 blink which is suppose to be her strongest.
"They need to make more addons that fundamentally change how a killer is played."
Waterlogged shoe for hag changes how hag is played, she becomes 115% m/s and her traps no longer teleport, instead they inflicted hindered. Who plays waterlogged shoe hag? Nobody. It's garbage.
Hag has another add-on that disable teleports, but makes her phantasm traps bodyblock. Does anyone play this? Not really, trigger trap at base is usually an instant tp->hit. why would i ever use this?
Scratch Mirror removes myer's exposed status effect and gives him 32 meter wallhack with 105% m/s. This add-on is only useful indoor maps, otherwise its so bad on normal maps that its literally unplayable.
I could go on with add-ons like Oni's Renjiro glove or Pig's Amanda letter which trade their powers for aura-reading and once again, they're hot garbage. Nurse has add-on that removes her ability for 60 seconds to become 115 m/s killer. Do you use it?
Add-on that change killer playstyle are epitome of trash add-on design. They're literally just an excuse to give killers garbage add-on choices that nobody will use.
The critic about them is that a new play-style for killer can just be NEW KILLER. Why make an add-on for new playstyle when you can just release a completely new killer with 21 add-ons with completely new playstyle.
Killers only need 1 playstyle, and it is playstyle of that killer, they do not need 20 playstyles. instead of making 20 playstyles, just make new killer.
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@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2602493#Comment_2602493
The vault speeds are actually more than that when you include running away from the window. The killer can still hit through windows so you have to get away from an entire lunge hit from the window before you're safe. With a medium vault when all is said and done it's like 2 seconds because you start with no momentum and have to gain it again when running.
there is perk to do make medium vaults faster. Its called resilience+Spine chill. If your injured, you will vault in 0.765 seconds instead of regular 0.9(I think). Fun fact, medium vaults used to be slower. They were already improved. When mechanic first came out, It took 1.1 second to medium vault a window though this was long time ago(4 years ago roughly).
They can't really make medium vaulting faster because it would ruin the integrity of red glow mindgames for killers. It would make windows too safe.
One thing they could do is reduce amount of time needed to walk in straight line to fast vault a window. Maybe this could be a perk? I do not know exact numbers but I think you need "run" forward for like 2 seconds to fast vault a window. Maybe a perk could reduce it to 1.5 seconds. A perk like that could help survivors fast vault windows more consistently.
Who knows though, a perk like that might get as much hate as Iron will does for improving survivor's looping capacity.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595912#Comment_2595912
As a nurse main i can say they are right. After putting 1k+ hours into nurse you are pretty much unstoppable without perks and addons on like 99% of survivor players. the other 1% you need those perks and addons though. 3 Blinks is insane.
What they really should do is have it be a better Spasmodic where after a blink strike you get a bunch of buffs:
- 115% movement speed
- Faster vault and pallet break speed and lunge distance (think myers tier 3)
- Make it so landing a hit in this mode takes it away so you can go back to blinking.
- Extra fatigue for missing a blink strike.
Then rework spasmodic.
Matchbox should be reworked to:
- Removes 1 blink charge
- 4.2 m/s movement speed
- Increase blink lunge range to be normal lunge range.
- Decrease fatigue on successful blink strike.
So matchbox becomes more, quick, short blinks and bookmark changes her playstyle more.
These add-on are worthless for iri. you made them as bad as Pyramid head's iri add-ons. all killers should have strong iri add-ons, they're suppose to be their best add-ons. Matchbox add-on needs a buff. it should not remove 1 blink charge. only make you 4.2.
I just do not find nurse as an interesting killer to go against, lack of counter-play on survivor end.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2598952#Comment_2598952
Literally everything I said there I was talking about fighting games, not Dead by Daylight.
So thank you for proving my point
your point is that fighting games and DBD are not relatable.
My point is that they are relatable.
The reason why people don't really ######### about nurses changes is because nurses changes did not affect her ability to win games.
Nurse's gameplay before change and after change is almost identical. She still has two blinks, her anti-loop is still largely the same. Only her add-ons became worse.
Deathslinger physically isn't able to do same shots as before. Shooting through narrow corners of loops, turning corners at loops and shooting in general is greatly impaired. His stealth is also impossible currently with 32 meter terror radius which was critical to getting his first injure so that his shot was lethal with 1 bullet.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2598851#Comment_2598851
Fighting games require reads but the difference is both players actually have the time to study their opponents and try to recognize patterns, also certain chains can only yield certain results and you can some times opt for the less punishing result.
In Dead by Daylight that just isnt the case, since if you guess wrong you get punished the exact same way, you cant opt for a less punishing scenario since there is none.
"Fighting games require reads but the difference is both players actually have the time to study their opponents"
survivors have 2 healthstates and dead hard which is effectively 3 health states. they also have 3 hook states.
"try to recognize patterns, also certain chains can only yield certain results"
DBD mindgames are predetermine locations. there isn't anything to study or recognize patterns.
at T-L walls, killers will push counterclock-wise and survivors will go clockwise. at the L or T, Survivors have distinct choice to vault or not to vault and killer has distinct choice to moonwalk forward or moonwalk backwards. He either guessing right or wrong. Its binary choice.
The same can be said around Shack window where your either vaulting or bluffing vault and for every unsafe pallet that the killer chooses to "play". your either sliding over pallet or bluffing the vault and killer either walking forward or doublebacking in anticipation of a slide.
Arguably vs good players in fighting games and depending on fighting game, Most players end up being really good at never dropping their combo meaning you'll always be taking 30-100% health damage give or take assuming both players at their respective characters. DBD is a lot simpler, you just take 1 healthstate worth of damage on every mistake instead of random numbers based off player's skill.
"you cant opt for a less punishing scenario since there is none."
This is untrue. in fact part of balance problems within chase for a lot of killers is that survivors do not need greed anything and can play ultra-safe while waste large deal of killer's time with efficient gen speed.
For example, survivors do not need vault shack window, they can loop outside shack for like 2-3 loops than drop pallet and killer has to break it. The same can be said about Long-wall short wall pallets, survivors do not need take risks looping around the pallet in fear of red glow mindgames, they can just predrop pallet and camp it. Killer is forced break it. Jungle gyms are same with their long wall pallet.
At least Nurse ignores all that silly safe loop design and few other killers can mitigate its effectiveness.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2598038#Comment_2598038
Spawns are so random now adays. Sure you can look to the farthest left or right of you. But if they're actively stealthing a bit to delay corrupt. It's difficult. Such as hiding in lockers if you're close. Nor is 2 hooks by the time corrupt is done enough. Because the problem is. In those 2 minutes. 3 gens will be done. So where is the value ?
It's much easier to let them on the closest gen. Find them in 6 seconds (blight typically, for me) And start my snowball quickly. Since they won't be trying to work around corrupt.
if your losing 3 gens by first chase on any killer with corrupt, than your not playing killer correctly. the size of map and type of map will vary how effective stealthing is though in my experience, very few survivors actually stealth corrupt due to lack of solo-queue coordination.
Only swf can really stealth out corrupt however swf can also destroy ruin in record time.
There are some killers where Ruin & Undying outclasses CI&Deadlock. Its mainly on killers where they use totems as bait and traveling from gen to gen is really easy. Blight is best user of this strategy. Billy and Freddy are alternatives to this. Wraith is another alternative to the strategy. Contrary to popular belief, I actually think Run and Devour hope are best used on Trapper & Hag. The reason being is that these killers tend to 3 generator a lot because their ability is ineffective at large distances and what better way to ensure your totem stays alive than to just trap it around a 3 gen.
when it comes to killers like Huntress for example, She's just too slow to capitalize off Ruin. She needs something that is automatic and CI is exactly what doctor ordered. The same can be said for a lot of other slow 1vs1 killers like clown, deathslinger, Pyramid head,demo etc. though most of these 1vs1 killers are ass at 1vs1 if survivor is good so hardly anyone really plays them anyway.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/290783/i-feel-like-corrupt-intervention-is-a-must
What's funny is I feel it's the opposite. I feel corrupt brings almost no value. And actually hurts. I feel it's VERY overated. Basically my games go like this.
Corrupt - survivors tend to hide it out a little more..It takes longer to find people(without whispers or lethal) It actually creates a SLOW start. And I find it's lose lose. Either I patrol uncorrupted areas and the start is slow. Or I go to corrupted zones and even if I get a down without the first minute of the game in a corrupted zone. A gen pops..So what value did I get out of it at that point ?
WITHOUT corrupt. I'm almost GUARANTEED to find a survivor quickly on a gen. I'm a solid killer. So I can get a down quickly. I start the game fast. I start a snowball fast. I make people get off gens faster. And usually those zones that would be corrupted..Have a survivor on them. So when I hook. I have closer to go to a gen to get my next chase.
Most killer players memorize survivor spawn locations on every map. so they know where to search at the start of the game. On average, I get about 2-3 hooks before corrupt intervention comes out (Vary based off strength of the killer).
Optimized survivor teams can complete the game in roughly 5-6 minutes even under constant hook pressure and less if you fail chases. 5 minutes is not enough to get 6 hooks vs these type of teams, in general, they tend to finish gens in < 3 hooks than you have to play Borrow time facecamping game with opened exit gates.
The way I see corrupt intervention+Deadlock is that against these teams, they tend to finish 3 gens in 1 chase and than they will do 1-2 gens between your 2nd-4th hook. Corrupt intervention will make 2 gens pop instead of 3 in a chase(it slowdown generators by 80 seconds at the start), so you can picture corrupt intervention like 4 pop goes weasels at the start of the game. Deadlock prevents survivors from completing two generators back to back.
Deadlock has counter though, the counter is 99% generators on edge of the map so that least important generator gets blocked. it slows the game down 2-3 times for total of roughly 60~ seconds.
Corrupt intervention and Deadlock in my opinion are tunneling perks because they disrupt the survivor's ability to complete generators in efficient matter(by sabotaging their objective) and once you've killed one survivor out of 4. you get best slowdown in the game which is 3vs1 for killer.
The time that these two perks give you effectively removes the cost of eating Decisive strike and reduces potency of Dead hard/Other exhaustion perks. Corrupt+Deadlock indirectly counter Dead hard and Decisive strike assuming your killer is able to win chases.
Ruin & Undying is better... but survivors tend spawn on totems and many killers have weak chases & map mobility such that Ruin is difficult to take advantage on many killers against efficient survivors.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2594173#Comment_2594173
That works, but only if they're injured. And for killers like spirit that won't work at all.
sprint has add-on called cherry blosom. it gives killer instinct when your near survivor. many other killer counter it. Legion counters it, plague counters it. Nemesis counters it. Oni's blood orbs can counter it When COH was disabled, I have never bothered kicking boon totems. If totem is in tilesets, you can often just zone survivor and kick totem. With basic mark tracking and basic intuition, the perk can be neutralized with killer skill. Shadowstep already nerfed from 28->24 meters which perk did not deserve any changes.
Shadowstep is good killer perk, it gives killer free 14 second generator slowdown for survivor doing totems that the killer barely cares about. COH on other hand is really strong. Most killers do not have easy-accessible instant downs and unlimited med kit decimates the killer injure pressure while simultaneously creating secondary objective for killer as extra health states hurts the chase.
Issue is that hex perks are suppose to be stronger than normal perks and if they change survivor hex perks, survivor won't use them, so I highly doubt it will get changed. maybe in 1-2 years. that is usually expected time it takes for anything on survivor side to change.
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@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2587968#Comment_2587968
M1 Killer means a Killer that cannot down with their power and has to literally M1 for every down
m1 killers usually mean they have no chase power like trapper with no trap placed. it can also means that their power is easy to counter-play in a chase... like pig dash or clown bottles/freddy snares(drop pallets early), Myers(Use pallets, avoid windows), Wraith, ghostface etc.
Doctor is hardly an M1 killer, he has solid anti-loop and can play more tiles with good success rate to get hits. He's just not very strong against pre-drop pallets+shift+W & health states+shift+W. They could make him stronger by reworking Iri queen to grant exposed status+exhaust status effect when in the survivor is in tier 3 or give him like 100% faster spinning skillcheck when inflicted by madness to recreate old hex:ruin though most people would complain he is too strong than so I rather not see doctor become stronger due to survivor main stuff.
he is at place where survivor's can't complain that he is strong but also at place where killers can't say he is S-tier or anything.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2589655#Comment_2589655
When did Wraith become ranged? Did they gave him shotfun in latest patch?
How is Pinhead's M1 different from Huntress? Unless you want to count that bug he used to have before.
This topic is very interesting so I'll chime in.
Ranged killers emulate longer lunges. Unlike normal lunges, Normal lunges have no cast time or wind-up and activate instantly. They're also harder to hit miss because you curve their hitbox which is why 360's are not effective vs competent killers.
Deathslinger's gun was closest thing to an extended 18 meters lunge as wind-up of his gun was only 0.15 seconds+travel time. I'd wager travel time was somewhere between 0.2-0.8 seconds. It gave you just enough time to react to hit gun as long you weren't pointblank. His gun extended his lunge range because when your hit by his gun, the gun is stun and it restricts your movement. It allowed most loops to be unsafe, though it largely dependent on where he shot you from.
If the survivor is really good at judging distance, most of the killers cannot reposition themselves to be in lunge range(Such as Nurse) or do not have enough lunge distance to capitalize on fast-vaulting pallets due to the length of a wall. so if a pallet is safe, you can generally camp it until killer breaks the pallet. There isn't such thing as medium vaulting pallets like there is for windows. His power largely balances out the 1vs1 aspect for killer in my opinion.
I think the reason why survivor hated deathslinger and also trickster is that deathslinger can rotate open-pallets at 110% and even though he is only 10% faster, they still catch up to the survivor slowly, so eventually deathslinger will instant quickscope a shot as he approaches closer to you and good deathslinger have a good understanding how much durability their chain has and which shots they can reel compare which shots they cannot. So for most part, deathslinger broke typical mold of loop pallet twice->put down pallet->killer breaks pallet->shift-w safely to another loop.
I think the reason why people do not really complain about huntress doing that at open loops is largely because her hatchet has 1.25 second wind-up and requires additional 1.75 seconds of extra charge up(3 sec total) and during this time, she is very slow, She also has a much easier to read throwing motion as she does not throw hatchet instantly. if I had to take a guess, its probably like 0.25 seconds from her releasing the hatchet, experienced survivors can sometimes crouch her hatchets when rotating open pallets and pre-move before she throws it though the hitbox is pretty large. Overall I do not really understand the whole trickster and huntress aspect because in my opinion, A skilled Huntress should be able to down a single survivor within 3 hatchets throws, so I personally do not really understand too much about the whole trickster 44 knives too much ammo argument. If survivors actually played trickster, they'd realize he has too little ammo and constantly reloads twice as much as Huntress. Deathslinger having infinity ammo to do this probably puts false impression that he is impossible to counter at these loops, but he is no different than what other ranged killers could achieve with average aim.
Overall the whole deathslinger "can't react to his shots" just boils down to not being able to 1vs1 killer therefore killer is unfair & unfun. You'll just have to find a new main for killer for like 2 years until survivor's stop complaining deathslinger and he gets reverted from being pathetic. Survivor fun is clearly prioritized over killer fun. So it does not matter that he is unplayable vs good players because that is the case for most of killer cast.
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bottle arc is important. it allows clown to throw bottles just over windows without overthrowing it. Bottle speed also messes up the arc. Both of these are bad changes.
The only change clown needs is his yellow bottles to have instant activation like purple bottles.
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now you know why he is getting reworked and boy does he ever need one. at same time, I doubt he will change very much. He is m1 killer. I have never personally seen an killer with no chase power be remotely effective.
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@SMitchell8 said:
They nurfed Scalped Top Knot ffs. Its hard enough at high mmr without them reducing a perks effectiveness by half. Played 1 game as Oni last night and it was the worst I'd ever played as him 😅
haha, at least i am not only one that thinks Oni is super unfun to play now :(
When I wrote a post on forums about it, The response was... git gud. that was pretty funny.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Nurse ignores conventional game mechanics. Can hit out of power instantly.
Spirit ignores conventional killer speed vs survivor speed design (and used to give no indication as to where she was too). Can also hit out of power instantly.
Blight also ignores conventional killer speed vs survivor speed design, but is more complex to play. Again, can hit out of power instantly.
Hag ignores altruism and looping. Requires setup and misplays from the survivors though. C a n h i t o u t o f p o w e r i n s t a n t l y.
Oni, like the first three, ignores conventional killer speed vs survivor speed design...with the catch that he has to earn it. Also comes with an instadown and no bumping into walls while dashing. When out of power, blood orbs are good for tracking. Can hit out of...you get the point.
Billy can zoom across the map after charging up his chainsaw for a few seconds, at which point his steering is pretty limited and can bump into objects with a hefty penalty, unlike Blight/Oni. It can instadown, sure, but it takes time to rev up, and once you commit to a sprint, there's no coming back. There's no sliding, there's no bouncing, there's no speed boost (in fact there's a hefty slowdown while charging and while recovering), and most importantly, the speed at which you charge up the chainsaw is too damn slow at most tiles, unless you're really good at curving with engravings. And then of course, you have the overheat mechanic to top it all off. Aaaaand the roar that was added to give survivors even more of an indicator that you started an already easily dodgeable power.
Billy was much more playable against decent survivors when spark plug was a thing. Full stop. Not instasaw (as that was completely busted), and even spark plug was a little overtuned...but yeah. He also just felt better. The camera changes suck. The roar sucks. Overheat sucks.
He deserves better.
Oni has 2.5 second activation time to enter demon dash before he can instantly attack out of power and his turning is somewhat limited. I feel like players downplay the earning aspect of Oni's power and do not have smart movement against ability. His only add-on reduce activation time is like 0.5.
I think Billy and Oni rely on low activation time abilities to have gameplay(anti-loop) at loops for survivor that are good at looping and understand their strengths and weaknesses. so I largely think that Oni is very overrated just how billy was.
responding OP. billy lacks anti-loop at strong tilesets. He relied on charge time add-ons to have gameplay at loop. You cannot be top 5 killer without the capacity to hit survivors at powerful tilesets.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2578880#Comment_2578880
It's not a matter of viability. It's a matter of being completely unfair with 0 counter.
there is counter to it. You let legion hit you and when he recovers from his swing, you throw a pallet on him, this prevents legion stabbing you twice.
There is no real counter to it in term preventing him from downing you completely. you could say that about most killers that chase you for 72 seconds with bloodlust 3 though unless your using the very safe pallets that force pallet breaks.
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@Dumpstick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2577522#Comment_2577522
Shadow Step is what countered him. Not the nerf.
Like I said, Shadow Step is ridiculously powerful. Shadow Step + Iron Will is a free juke in many chases, just like Lucky Break.
tru3 is using Druied Cherry Blossom add-on. It gives you killer instinct when your in 4 meters next to the survivor. This what stridor did for Iron will. Shadowstep does not do anything when your using good spirit add-ons. Its ironic that spirit's changes were meant to increase her skill-cap yet spirit has never been easier to play than now with that add-on.
Her skill-cap massively decreased. Mother daughter ring masks her nerfs because she has immese speed. She is still weaker. Just add-on mask her negative changes unlike deathslinger who had no good add-ons and completely relied on raw aiming skill and base-kit gameplay.
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Most people compare survivor perks to killer perks.
Survivor items are compared to killer add-ons though in my personal opinion, survivor items are more comparable to Old ebony moris and Ivory Mori.
Killer mori were weakened because it allowed killers to skip a large portion of hook states especially by tunneling survivors off hook granting close to unwinnable matches on survivor especially on stronger chase killers.
Otz's survivor experiment is making survivor items look more balanced than what they are. In reality, there is zero reason to not run 4 perks in the game, so if survivor use most powerful items and are swf with decent amount of skill, 84% winrate is under value of their power. It is a lot closer to near 100%. In fact some SWF have went for winrate streaks and were successful in doing so.
In my opinion, Items are not really meant to be balanced just like Moris are not meant to be balanced, they're meant to unbalanced and used for "fun" purposes. Everyone understands that winning is fun and items are designed to secure wins. Over time, all the items are progressively becoming weaker because of their instant-win properties. I imagine that eventually all the items will be irrelevant on the survivor side and will be in similar place to current moris. Toolboxes and Med-kits just are not quite there yet.
Survivor without items and perks is suppose to be worse off than killer with perks & add-ons. Ironically, its not that much worse off because of how powerful SWF is. I'm sure 56% winrate would easily go up to 70% with 4 good perks on the survivor side.
As otz mentions in the video, The reason why killer is not as bad as it should be is because killers can easily secure kills in losing matches due to imbalance of facecamping from altruistic survivors. In Q&A, they said they might look into making this strategy less powerful. The strategy in practice should not be powerful with efficient bodyblocking at hooks, but in practice many killers have hook defense pressure via instantdowns/low cooldown recovery and the lack of information in doing generator efficiently & escape makes it more effective than it should be. Killer are a lot worse than people realize base-game wise.
Its why people argue that killers are very dependent on perks and add-ons if they wish to go over many chases and play for default hook condition win though constant negative changes for killer makes this task harder and harder. This is entirely conversation between hook vs kill arguement between Tru3 and Otz
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16/(1+2.73) = 4.289 seconds
16/(1+4.75) = 2.782 seconds
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oh gosh. Another one of those survivor mains that barely plays killer. nothing changed for the killer player. It is just that you physically cannot dash in time to get around corners to flick your power.
Its like dev with spirit. there is nothing to increasing skill-cap for killer. Only survivor can increase in skill-cap when playing against the weaker killer. The killer just has less tools and cannot learn anything.
my learn to play killer without it is just going to be playing Blight with double speed add-ons.
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Clunky as too slow. Add-on barely does anything. killer fun factor is being sucked out dry.
Its not fun not being able dash at loops.
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buff it to 2 seconds.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568328#Comment_2568328
80% of the players isnt survivor only players. It's survivors AND killers. They are ignoring both the highest and lowest tiers of players, whether they are survivors or killers.
Besides, regardless if it is a party game or not, if 1 character consistently wins 65% of their matches just by playing that character, than that character needs to be adjusted. Survivors still dont even get close to an average winrate of 50%, even the best survivor perks have less than 50% escape rate. That is why you dont see survivor nerfs as often right now. Back in the day, there were a lot of perks that had a 70% escape rate when used, lots of maps that had 65% rates of escape. These have all been nerfed already.
The thing is, the way the game is designed, you personally do not feel it a victory if you see 2 survivors escaping. I had a game where I played quite nice and laid back, had 1 kill and everyone dead on hook. If it wasnt for desync screwing me over a few times(server predicting I was closer to a locker than I actually was, stunning me when I shouldnt be stunned, twice), I would have been completely fine with that result. It's just that you know you've been screwed in one way or another that makes it feel like a loss, even though by any competitive means, it's a win.
Feeling like you lost, when you realistically didnt, doesnt mean the game is imbalanced, it just means that it feels like it is.
Seriously, go ahead and start tracking your games, how often you win, how often you lose, how many hooks you've gained etc. Start tracking how often you actually win and actually lose. You'd be surprised to see that you win far more often than you lose. Yet the moments you lose feel much much worse. But did you truly deserve to feel much, much worse because of 3 games you lost, when you won 7 in a row?
this post is rich. you never answered the question, why do casual care about balance if they think the game is party game i.e, a game made for fun regardless of who wins? Why does balance matter to you if your casual player that just plays the game for fun and not to win?
"80% of the players isnt survivor only players. It's survivors AND killers. They are ignoring both the highest and lowest tiers of players, whether they are survivors or killers."
Are they ignoring highest killer players? Are you sure about that? I mean if a deathslinger player has trash aim, than he'll lose regardless if he plays live deathslinger or PTB deathslinger assuming the survivor he is playing vs are good. Why would you be weakening a killer if it was not for highest level players using him? A large reason why the game is imbalanced at higher level of play for killer for many killers is specifically because the game balances around casual survivors and targets changes high-tier killer players.
Moreover, do you think novice billy players knew how to use his chainsaw to zone or knew how to utilize curving at loops or chainsaw feathering? Those are all advance billy gameplay tricks. Billy and like every other killer that receives changes occur from better players mastering the killer power and survivor's complaining about their effectiveness. this is how it has always been.
"Survivors still dont even get close to an average winrate of 50%, even the best survivor perks have less than 50% escape rate."
I mean casual survivors are typically are always 80% of player-base just like casual killers are also 80% of playerbase which is why deathslinger only has like 52% or something killrate. so this point regarding 65% killrate for 80% of playerbase that is casual is irrelevant. Casual survivors are allowed to use same perks as good survivors. So why you would expect 80% of playerbase that is usually casual towards any game to have good overall winrate in regards to perks? I mean most of the casual survivor playerbase is dying to killers like Clown, Legion, Ghostface, Myers and so on which are like M1 115% with barely any power. Your point regarding add-ons and maps having 65% and 70% winrate is regarding when maps used to have no entity blocker with literal god windows that were labeled as infinities and add-ons such as old brand new part that used to repair a full generator in 5 seconds in which survivors said was fine. You have some outstanding imbalances for you notice a problem winrate-wise for survivor at the casual level.
The reason why you don't see any problems statistically anymore is because the problems are no longer outstanding. they're not as brain dead powerful as BNP 5 second generators. They're more subtle and a lot more skilled based. It does not mean that survivors are not in full control with lower tier killers in term of winning when they want to if they play the game properly with all safe pallets and such.
Anyhow, your post is way off-topic but I replied to your post for sake of consistency.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568580#Comment_2568580
I don't have a massive issue with Dead Hard tbh. I kind of see it the same way that I see other exhaustion perks, it'll give you that boost but then it's not going to help you for the rest of the chase.
Dead Hard basically allows you to be greedy, it lets you get another loop around a pallet for example - it's not a mistake when survivors do this, it's intentional, they know they have Dead Hard so they know they can make the loop before dropping that pallet, or make the window.
I still think Sprint Burst is a stronger exhaustion perk, but I feel that Dead Hard is more frustrating for some players to play against.
In my experience, sprint burst survivors generally tend to be weaker survivors at looping and I believe this is because survivor that rely on sprint burst rely heavily on holding shift-W which means that they rarely get chased from being so far ahead of the killer. Not saying this fact, Speculation.
I doubt many players that play killer take much issue with Sprint burst. A big reason is that sprint burst is very predictable perk in its trigger activation in many cases and another reason is that many killer powers counter sprintburst and render it ineffective. Mobility killers such as Blight, Wraith, Billy, demon form Oni and many others have mobility tools to easily catch up the distance that sprint burst gives to a survivor.
You might be thinking.... well what about those slower killers such as deathslinger and huntress and nurse, so on, while it is true that sprint burst is strong against these slower killers, These slower killers hate dead hard more than they hate sprintburst which leads to my next point. Dead hard interacts with killer powers and often is second chance towards killer powers. You can think of almost any killer power in the game and almost all of the powers can be second chanced by dead hard. There are so many examples that going through all of them would take us forever. Huntress hatchers can be dead hard iframed, Trapper traps, Demogorgon lunge, Plague's red corrupt puke, Doctor's shock, Deathslinger's gun. The list is practically endless. Sprint burst does not interact with killer powers. Dead Hard is more frustrating for most killer players to play against compare sprint burst because dead hard is second chance towards killer powers.
The final reason why I think its best perk is popularity. your average killer games looks like following:
For best exhaustion perk, you'd think you would see more sprintburst in lobbies. that's pretty good joke. dead hard x4 is pretty standard at higher MMR play. In fact, I'd argue that not seeing 4 dead hard is very surprising. that is how uncommon other exhaustion perks are and how common dead hard is. I'd say that dead hard might as well be written as default base-kit ability for survivors for how common it is. I respectfully disagree that sprint burst is better than dead hard.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2565537#Comment_2565537
So? He was ridiculous to play against. The game is supposed to be enjoyable for both sides. And you're wrong, the dev's being too careful isnt the devs not reworking him. Because they are. If you played him on the PTB, he performs quite similar in 99.9% of the cases. He needs minor to slight other changes, sure, but that will come with time.
Billy did need a punishment on infinite revving though. It's literally the same reason why Deathslinger needed changing: free zoning without punishment. I'd even say that crack billy would be fine if just overheat was introduced. You'll notice a trend amongst the devs soon enough tho. At first they are too afraid of buffing survivor perks even though they are horrible, then they are too afraid of buffing certain mechanics because they have massive potential if snowballed, but the snowball is so hard to obtain in the game that the massive potential barely matters. Then they make a really good change and suddenly buff killers galore and buff survivors galore, make 1 buff or nerf too powerful and then they are careful with every move they make for another 8-10 months.
So really, devs do work on both sides, but for killers to reach an average of 2 kills and survivors an average of 2 escapes, either survivor needs buffing, or killer needs nerfing. But buffing or nerfing survivors really affects the lowest and highest tiers. And buffing and nerfing killers does the same.
So ofcourse the devs will look at the largest set of players, and balance towards their enjoyment. Because this game is a party game, first and foremost. If you make the game tournament balanced, killers would have an average of 3.5 kills in publics. And at that point, why even bother having generators in the game?
"So ofcourse the devs will look at the largest set of players, and balance towards their enjoyment. Because this game is a party game, first and foremost."
So why do you care about balance of killers and whether they win or lose if it is party game? I mean if survivor say its party game, than they shouldn't care if they win or lose.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2563462#Comment_2563462
Hag is for sure better then Billy or Huntress at least on comp level. But placing Huntress as #5 is not a bad pick.
For me, it's definitely Nurse-Bubba-Blight in that order. The other killers have zero chance at winning at comp level. I'd say closest after those 3 would be Engineer fang Pinhead and Oni(becoming worse). Spirit is dead so I am not mentioning her.
Hag is overrated killer, she's only good at indoor maps with rusty shackle+Dried Ceida because indoor maps have a lot of choke points though from my understanding, Indoor maps are usually banned in comp(because of these specific cheese strategies).
Ever since MMR, its all I ever face as survivor. Nurse, Bubba, Blight. If you face any of the other killers, It feels like other killers have lower MMR, so it puts you in lower MMR matches as survivor with weaker killers.
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an interesting idea that I thought about is what if ghostface had a shadowstep like attack when he marks a survivor in nightshroud in m2 when leaning. it would teleport him next to the survivor in 360 degrees angle around survivor and he could lunge from it. My guess is that survivors would just camp pallets to stun him. It would be like an zero travel time nurse blink.
My guess is for ghostface rework will be that they'll reduce the time required to break out ghostface by 50% because many casual survivors have trouble breaking him out, but double speed(100% speed) to mark survivors with some add-on changes.
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@ChurchofPig said:
Spirit will be harder than before, but she's definitely not dead. No one was arguing this was a nerf.
Deathslinger I think his nerf had to do more with disconnects than how strong he is. I've seen about the same, if not more, disconnects against Deathslinger than Spirit. He was boring and there was very little you could do to counter him. The only way I've seen Deathslingers lose is because THEY screwed up, it had nothing to do with survivors.
For the survivor perks getting buffed: Vigil is definitely more viable but still not the best, Babysitter is only buffed if you tunnel, For The People is barely a buff, Windows should have got that change when Zanshin Tactics did, Repressed Alliance is barely used anyways and this isn't going to do much, Built to Last honestly is a lot stronger now, Any Means Necessary should have had pallet aura reading from the beginning, No Mither still hard mode. Seriously, most of these changes either should have already been a thing or are only buffed if you play scummy.
Boons are getting changes in live servers and we'd have to test them to see if they're as strong. Also, if a survivor finds your hex now and decides to bless it instead of breaking it, you were going to lose it anyways. To bless it they have to sit there twice as long as if they just broke it.
A new survivor is just a new skin basically
Also, people have been asking for Plague and Trapper to be buffed for a LONG time. I don't know why you're complaining that we're getting those even if it is alongside these nerfs.
Oh let's also forget that they
Buffed Nurse add-ons
Buffed Hag add-ons
Buffed Shape add-ons
Buffed Hillbilly add-ons
Buffed (and Nerfed, kinda more balanced) Pig add-ons
Buffed Plague add-ons
Buffed Blight add-ons
Buffed (and slightly buffed) multiple killer perks, not just Third Seal
I honestly don't know where you are getting the number 3 from. 8 survivor perks are getting buffed and 4 killer perks are getting buffed
Yep totally a survivor sided update and killers shouldn't deal with BHVRs bs anymore. Absolutely.
spirit and deathslinger are pretty dead. Oni and Wraith, they just became weaker for no real apparent reason other than casual survivor bias.
Plague got improvement to her base-kit but some of her add-ons became worse. Neutral change. Trapper base-kit was improved. These killers were not amazing before and their changes do not really move needle that much.
TL:DR post:
The killers that were fun to play and somewhat viable against better players became worse.
The killers that were weak and were unfun to play vs better players did not really improve much.
More Details on other changes:
Blight already has good add-ons, He is mostly using Blighted crow+Blighted rat or Alchemist ring/C33. He doesn't need more add-ons. It does add variety but killers do not have much variety if they want to win.
Nurse acquired triple blink. She does not need triple blink. Range and Recovery are already good. The triple blink will allows nurse to counter dead hard and reduces her counter-play in a chase. This change is likely centered for newer players to have a better time learning nurse but is likely to make nurse less fun to play against if the player is good at her.
Pig got tamper timer nerf which is fine as add-on gave pig random rng moris. One of major complaints about pig's reverse beartraps is that reverse beartraps are RNG based, Pig's Annotated plans & Jigsaw sketch previously added extra boxes which reduced chance for a survivor to get their trap off on first attempt. These add-on were removed and this weakens Pig's 4vs1 game slowdown with traps. The same can be said for Crate of gears and Bag of gears. Her new add-ons for improving ambush speed and crouch speed are pitiful values. They're so unimpactful to the point that they should just be base-kit. Rule.set 2+Video tape is corrupt pig intervention.
TL:DR with Pig - Worse 4vs1 trap slowdown, no real improvement to other parts of her lackluster kit.
Hag & Myers alternative play-styles became better. Hag Waterlogged shoe is a bad version of freddy, so nobody will really use it over just playing regular hag. Purple tombstone piece & Judith have same problems as Tampered timer pig. Vanity mirror improvement is strange considering Wraith all-seeing becoming worse.
Billy changes nothing what was problematic about his add-ons. The problem with his add-ons were that Tuned Carburettor add-on has negative penalty of 110% m/s and Mother helper add-on relies on survivors actions to get chainsaw speed boost. They buffed the numbers of on the add-on but the problem is drawbacks. Pighouse Gloves only work when your overheated. This another drawback that makes add-on not worth using. The bonuses are not worth the power loss. Engraving still have charge time reducation and the add-on that offset this negative are still bad, so these add-ons more negative than helpful. Both iri add-ons still have negatives. Iri brick still has 2 second window drawback undetectable condition and Apex mufler still requires undetectable to be useful(Only worth using with tinkerer). Billy did not change, He is still same as before.
TL:DR Billy add-ons are bad because of their drawbacks.
Conclusively they are making killers less fun to play so we're going back to Dark times of DBD.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2563028#Comment_2563028
I actually use it a lot, when playing with new survivors. It's quite good at getting killer's attention, so I would really wanna keep that drawback. Mainly because I don't consider it drawback... I am not stealth survivor type.
suspicious. your first post complains about my initial change and asks to pick one. If you want killer attention, just run at the killer. you do not need a perk for that. Its not related to stealth. it is related to certain killers like nurse and pyramid head when their abilities highly profit from aura-reading from their ability as I stated in my first reply towards your first post.
Anyhow my initial post is my suggestion to improving the perk.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562996#Comment_2562996
I would keep effect, but shorter cd to 20 seconds. That would be fine and you could use it in loops more often.
Don't think it would make survivors use it. Removing drawback of having your aura being revealed by passive effect would be better for stand-alone perk.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562936#Comment_2562936
Kindred is used in one location and it is free for all perk. You should expect it.
It would be fine, if you saw him just with that cooldown trigger, but you also see him, whenever he sees you and that's kinda big deal. With OoO killer just know that he can't suprise you with it, so he doesn't have to even try.
I mean, currently, the only way to run OoO for survivor is to activate Mettle of Man. Mettle of Man when activated shows killer the aura of the survivor when survivor is healed to healthy after triggering the perk. This works with Object of Obsession since when your aura is shown to killer, the killer aura is shown to you. This gives you permanent wallhack like old Object of obsession did. it is not worth going through all the trouble to make this perk effective, hence why no one really runs MoM or OoO.
I was just thinking of changes that would make it more of chase-aura reading information type perk for survivor without it helping the killer. there are not many perks that would give you aura reading in a chase with the killer besides Alert and Kindred. I think it would be interesting if there was a perk that specialized in giving aura reading to the survivor while in a chase. Current OoO feels like it should do that but I think it does not activate often enough to be helpful and periodic BBQ every 30 seconds helps killer more than survivor.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562489#Comment_2562489
So you want remove option for killer to find out he is dealing with OoO and give it less cooldown? yeah no. Choose one
why does killer need to know the perk is in play? Its not like kindred tells you as killer that your aura is being revealed. Object of Obsession is not terribly effective perk. You never see anyone run it post change. Alert is much better killer aura reading perk and hardly anyone runs it.
I doubt even with those improvements, people would switch to using object of obsession suddenly. For some killers, such as Nurse and Pyramid head, The killer seeing aura of the survivor is too much of advantage in loops to run the perk, The perk is complete suicide right now against those killers. Its more detrimental to survivor now than it is a benefit.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562167#Comment_2562167
Yeah, I barely see people running Object of Obsession now. It's kinda a shame to see another perk tossed in the trash heap.
I would like to see object not show aura of survivor, only show aura of killer.
Maybe lower cooldown from 30->20.
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Just faster/instant yellow gas activation. nothing else.
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Its not med kit that are problem. It's shift+W from med kits that are the problem. Health states are just WAY too powerful in current state of the game. they've always been way too powerful. The sprint burst component allows you get to busted tiles in the game. Its exact reason why self-care healing was weakened. they need weaken sprint burst of health states from 2 sec->1 sec.
med-kits just enable you to get health states. Its normally very hard and time consuming for survivors to get health state back, but with med-kits. Med-kits make health state far too accessible for too little time efficiency compare to what killer needs to catch up.
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Survivor mains: Engineer fang op
Devs: Pinhead top kill-rate. no changes needed
the chains are garbage. you need to use engineer fang to make his gateway power worth using. The normal chain anti-loop is a joke. He has like 1% power-level in his anti-loop and 99% power-level in the box now.
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@Rhoska said:
2K is the "balance" point, as a "win" for Killer.
Thats the clear standard from stats.
There are too many Killers, abilities, perks to rationally "balance". Atbest, just specific outliers can be adjusted.
The only meaningful way to swing 2K as "win" standard, would be changes to core game mechanics that affect all Killers and/or all Survivors.
Not anymore. Peanut explained how MMR system works.
You can lose MMR or Gain MMR. It depends who you kill and what your MMR is. Long story is that you should aim to kill the toxic Flashlike clicking Neas, P3 Quentins and P3 Bills over baby Fengs and Kates.
I find it funny they give a chart on kill rates to find out how well baby nurses kill players, but no chart for how well high MMR players killers do vs high mmr survivors.
@[Deleted User] said:
Pinhead isn't going to get changed regarding Hoarder/Franklin's due to its strength. It's going to get changed (hopefully) because it's the most insanely unfun thing in the game.
Your attitude is exact reason balance of killers at higher level gets ruined for a lot of 4.4 and 115% m/s killers.
"Spirit gameplay is flip-coin, boring"
"Deathslinger is shots are unreactable, unfun killer to play against"
"Freddy and Wraith see my aura, unfair"
I could go on with forever freddy, old Billy and recent one "top knot Oni". Point being is none of these killers were unfair, they were beatable challenges that required skill for survivors to win.
I'd say Franklin demise+Hoarder is like new forever freddy build for Pinhead. Its designed around giving killers a way to 4vs1 pressure survivors without relying on rng-based perks such as Hex:Ruin. I believe one of questions asked on Patrick on stream was about generator speed in which Patrick replied with big fat no.
By saying no, he is indirectly saying that generator defense perks, slugging and game delay mechanics such as pinhead box, forever freddy add-ons and reverse bear traps are healthy gameplay mechanics. It makes little sense to why they weaken perks like pop goes weasel and like twin/oni slugging etc. so on. The game just goes too fast for killer at base and killer will use these mechanics in attempts to balance the game.
On final note, there are certain mechanics that I dislike playing vs as survivor. Two majors ones are Mori's that skip hook states and very extreme versions of killer anti-loop. So for exmaple, I dislike playing against Purple Tombstone piece Myers. People say you can jump into lockers or spam vaullt pallets to prevent getting Moried, but Myers with M&A has 8 meter TR and will not activate his 99% unless you are out of position, so the gameplay on this add-on is hear no TR, Instant-kill. Tamper timer+Jigsaw sketch/Crate of gears pig is no different. For price of being downed, you run risk of not having enough time to search all boxes into a mori made more unfavorable by maps RPD, Mother dwelling etc. The same can be said stuff like old frank mixtape legion or omega/5 blink nurse. Not much counter-play for survivor in avoiding the hit.
So I dislike low-survivor killer interactions mechanics. It doesn't mean that those mechanics necessary should be made worse though unless everyone agrees that those mechanics are unfun so I'm low-key happy of that tamper timer pig nerf.
edit: typos.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkCtammnJB8@James4125 said:
Utterly useless perk that nobody will ever or has ever wanted to run actually being given a purpose?
That's illegal! Devs nerf!
I really hope you don't complain about killers who run undying ruin BBQ pop on every killer or survivors with nothing but unbreakable DH BT DS.
your comment reminds me of the thumbnail. looking at recent changes with Stridor Spirit and Monitor&abuse Deathslinger, I don't think they really like off-meta perks being used on killers. they're usually really safe with killer perks, almost as if the perks are not meant to be used at all.