DY86
DY86
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@TheDarkTyrant said:
Nemesis could be if the devs actually cared about him.
They should really rework his zombies man. Overall he is indeed pretty solid. Makes pallets and windows a joke, love him
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@Ayamir said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038711#Comment_3038711
This is impossible to do some killers just have better power than others no matter how much you buff the bottom tiers killers they will still be weak in comparison to the top tier ones.
There's a reason why Blight and Nurse are S Tier they have high mobility,can end chase fast doesn't get countered by predrop hold W where the A tier killers like Pyramid and Oni struggle,plus they never cared about DS as they catch up to you in seconds.
don't want to sound pessimistic but Ghostface will never be a viable killer as long as maps like Eyrie of Cringe or mother's dwelling exists.
Maps are the problems in this game,you're playing Myers and you get fractured cowshed against a decent survivor team what do you do ?
I am sure by making maps smaller and less god pallets will help the bottom tier killers ALOT.
Cmon man ur just being pessimistic. There is always a way to level playing field. Im not talking about mobility only, I mean Blight, Spirit and Nurse excel on those sure, theres no way wraith, GF, Myers or pig can come close in Mobility and chase potential the way things are rn but theres aways a way to make them at least close to those 3. And of course, maps are also unbalanced.
i mean, there are games with over 100 characters and most of them just come down to preference. Thats how it should be u know?
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Because good blights ARE hard to counter. He is S tier imo. When mastered his turn rate can be very manageable and guarantee hits survivors dont expect. I cant count the times I thought I was in the clear and got sniped senseless 2 secs later. but his skill ceiling is arguably the highest, if not its an easy top 3.
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Yeah lol OP made another spreadsheet to disprove peanits haha
the man is savage
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038750#Comment_3038750
People 99% the gates because they want the gates to be basically open, but not to deal with a potential Blood Warden. You could bring Blood Warden every game and get to use it maybe once every 12 games, because 99% the gates offers this safety net without being detrimental in the vast majority of times. Its like killers must always anticipate that DH is in play and bait it out, but by doing so they lose 2-3s every chase, but survivors lose basically nothing by 99% the gates and thats what rubs some people the wrong way. Not in a hot, frothing "this is soooo unfair please change!" kinda way, but still, its there and its singelhandedly prohibits playing Blood Warden, because "why bother"?
Yeah, there are times when 99% the gates killed a survivor because they had to stop that split second, and people of course remember this instances and claim "I died countless times to 99% gates, so its not a survivor favoring strategy", but 19/20 cases you basically got the door open without actually openeing them and thats kindaaaa odd. So why have a perk like Blood Warden in the game when you can't actually use it?
The EGC is 2min long, double that time if the killer is roaming the hook ie 4min. Most endgame shennanigans don't even take a quarter of this time, its just a quick swoop in, unhook, swarm the unhooked survivor and get everyone out, so the timer is not the thing survivors are afraid of (and why should they, thats not the point of the EGC), its just one more subtle slap in the killers face that there is a mechanic that so univocally favors the survivors, ie 99% counter to that one perk, and the doors are actually open when the game still thinks that they arent. Its no big deal, but it adds up to the dissatisfaction with playing killer.
I see that, I really do, but the counterplay is open it altogether. Doing so u put pressure on them. Thats why it needs no change.
EGC was designed so not killer nor surv would hold the match hostage. So it is something survs should be afraid of. Not triggering egc only gives the survs infinite time to do more and more shenanigans, id rather put a 4min timer on them than no timer at all. If u manage to get a hook trade instead of an unhook, it exerts more pressure.
U dont have to guarantee a kill during egc u just have to stall long enough for egc to guarantee u the kill. At least thats my take on it. But thats my playstyle. One of the reasons I use STBFL
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/332296/99-doors-mechanic-idea
It either has to be basekit or no one will ever use it. Could you EVER see yourself using a perk slot for regressing doors? I mean thats such a niche thing.
Oh, while we are at it, here is an idea: add this not as a seperate perk, but as a secondary effect to Blood Warden! Blood Warden does what it does, but it also silently regresses gates to the lowest state that wouldn't change to lights on top. This way 99% would still be the correct counter to Blood Warden, but it would also buff Blood Warden slightly and maybe see it finally getting some value.
Devs said they are not gonna do that as it discourages last minute saves, and they wont do that.
Also, if the gates are powered and u need a perk to regress them u pretty much lost imo. even if ur perk idea came to fruition, i still think remember me, noed, blood warden and no way out would be a more effective endgame build. What do u think, bro?
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OP disproved that bro statement, bro.
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@Exxodus21 said:
Doing the survivor's objective isn't counterplay.
While it is a valid strategy it should be looked at in the same way facecamping is as a valid strategy needs to be looked at.
Slugging for the 4 k at lease has the counter of perks like Unbreakable, Soul Guard, Tenacity, Flip-Flop, etc.
Bro, if the gates are 99 they already did lmao the only real difference between a 99d gate and an opened gate is the EGC timer which puts pressure on the survs. As long as the gates are not opened they have all the time in the world to trade hooks, to bodyblock, to go to a corner and heal. Do that as many times needed to get closer and closer to the gates.
And there are perks as well, remember me, Blood warden, fire up, noed etc.
As I said both valid strats and no Face Camping is not valid wth?
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Or u just dont know how to use it properly maybe?
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@TotemSeeker91 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847688#Comment_1847688
Rank 👏 means 👏 nothing
and so does the current MMR. So..
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a better idea: put all killers on par with one another, so all of them are viable, so all of them are actual threats. As it should be
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038581#Comment_3038581
That is rarely ever a good idea. The point isn't that the killer should do part of the survivor's object for them. Killers should have a way to counter it.
Or survivors should have a massive incentive to leave. Make it a hard decision on whether to go back for the save or leave now. This would also put an end to just standing around in the exit to make the killer come watch you use your DH to leave.
nah, the counter play is u as killer open the gate urself, limiting their time.
Also, it’s a valid strat. Same way some killers will just slug the 3rd surv until they find the last one to avoid hatch play. Both strategies, both valid
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@Shaped said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3036216#Comment_3036216
I just use telephotolens for this reason. At least I get value out of being revealed and if you add matchbook your shroud gets back pretty quick.
Yup I do the same. I mostly use his power for mindgames or quick unexpected downs. Otherwise it’s only purpose is information
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U just started playing him bro hahaha U think you’d be automatically good? Billy has a high skill ceiling tbh. But he does need a few tweaks, the overheating mechanics is one of them.
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
Disparity is actually the biggest issue with killers and has likely been the case since the games inception. Simply put, some killers have proper tools to create a good experience and make up for their M1 weakness. Other killers don't have that and have to rely on survivors making mistakes to benefit.
Matchmaking can be fixed if they tried.
Map design doesn't consider killer powers, killer weaknesses, and simply put, if you're a high mobility killer map design doesn't hurt you EVER, but if you're M1 1 bad map pretty much guarantees your performance goes down compared to others.
RNG I play pig so I've had to deal with ######### RNG since I hopped into this game. Sometimes its a problem, sometimes its not, sometimes I wish I didn't have to give a ######### whether it was going to benefit me or not.
Perks...Synergistic perks and ideas get hampered for the sake of balance quicker than base kit killer powers get changed to make them decent. (Looking at punk ass Sadako release here)
Generator speeds for say a character with built in slow down like Pig...not a big deal. Take another killer like trapper....now its a big deal.
^ All of this...WOULD NEVER BE AN ISSUE! If devs would address how WIDLY different killers perform in ACTUAL scenarios and not their goofy number base which doesn't explain how why, or ######### happened in the mentality of players during a match. I don't want to have to sit up and play Nurse and Blight and Spirit every damn game just to feel like the competition was fair. Big killer roster, everybody has unique skills and talents, yet only a fraction of them actually perform up to task. We get hamstrung licensed killers, who are a straight up embarassment to their franchise a lot of the time, and get expected to just suck it up and deal with the wide ass gap, even if we DON'T WANT TO PLAY THE MOST POWERFUL 3 KILLERS IN THE GAME! Its sick. And I don't wanna spend another dime on this trash until they fix that gap....
Yea to everything u said. I play GF and in maps such as Mothers Dwelling its certain I will not get more than a 2k in the best case scenario.
The difference between a S tier killer and a B tier killer is abysmal, when it should actually be a matter of play style preference. Also Pig needs a rework asap
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@noctis129 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1848011#Comment_1848011
50% survival rate seems a bit too high. I think escape percentage should be around 25% to make it challenging and reward killers. We don't need more survivors in this game. We also have a extreme lack of high Calibur killers.
That wouldn’t work. How would the current mmr see the difference between a good surv and a regular/bad surv? Or a good killer and a regular/bad killer? Also, if the escape rate were that low no one would play surv. Or even worse, everyone would start banding together as SWF.
They need to rework how the mmr works so new survs would be faced with new killers and vice versa.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038044#Comment_3038044
Calculate it as 1.5 million points for each Prestige and 50k for each bloodweb at level 50.
Do you not understand with the old system you have to do level 50 bloodwebs regardless of Prestige and with the new system you don't?
bruh, smaller bloodwebs give u no real value after the update and u still are foced to go through them wasting BP regardless.
I dont want another brown medkit and I dont want another 20 levels of brown and yellow crap. I want my best items and best addons right of the bat, like it is when u hit level 50 infinitely.
Just take a look at the spreadsheet bro. Its all there, redo the math if u will. But OP is right, facts are facts the math has been done and u and the devs are wrong. If u dont believe it, just go to the PTB and brute force ur way in the Bloodweb and youll see
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3038025#Comment_3038025
Peanuts explained it pretty well also, if you don't understand and wish to keep spreading misinformation so be it.
no he didn’t. “Explaining” something when the math goes contrary means nothing. Its like saying gravity pushes things up because birds fly.
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@Peanits said:
I hate to sneak in again and ruin all your hard work (huge kudos for going through the effort of putting together the spreadsheet!), but there's another big oversight here: Prestiging resets you to level 1, meaning you get the super tiny levels again. The overall bloodpoints required ends up being ~75% lower, not the number of levels. You spend way more BP per level on the old system by repeating the huge level 50 bloodwebs.
but he did the numbers, and I redid his math and all checks out. I think u guys should at least show us something either to disprove that or confirm it was a mistake and chamge it before going live. Its the bare minimum tbh
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
For the record, this is how low the early levels have to be to get to the 75% value:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SCJUSAL6UWVZ/image.png
This is with every level below 50 having a price of 10k BP, or 2 browns and a yellow. So unless there are some radical bloodweb changes coming that weren't in the patch notes, I have a hard time believing the 75% figure.
My man did it again. DAMNNNNN. I am officially ur number one fan, my nerd.
its clear the devs didnt put into account that the first few levels only award u crap addons and items, making it a worse grind either way. Specially if u have to PAY 50k BP to reset obligatory I may add.
another thing that was never put into account: rarity means very little on many killers, many Iri are trash and not worth it.
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@Buffy101 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035875#Comment_3035875
Yes. Well both killer and Survivor. Im ok not great and Im always confused why if I just had a crappy match is the rank increasing And also does it go by the amount of points you earn after a match? Or its really just about surviving and the amount of kills?
Unfortunately its just surviving the trial or getting kills. Its just a mess unfortunately, cause sometimes there is that ONE survivor who runs the killer for 5 gens and get facecamped at the end, he will die and get a worse match afterwards even though he facilitated the other 3 escapes.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035693#Comment_3035693
That's not the case any more.
MoM requires you to take 3 protection hits, which could not be accomplished quickly or easily.
But with the many endurance effects we now have, it is now possible to score 3 protection hits in quick succession and survive, under common hook trade conditions. Turning MoM from an awkward niche perk into a powerful meta perk that's very easy to use.
You go for an unhook, and get hit once. You then complete the unhook and get hit again and go down. 1 protection hit.
You get hooked, then rescued. You bodyblock with OtR and score a 2nd protection hit. You continue to bodyblock and DH to take your 3rd protection hit.
You now have MoM and can continue to bodyblock for a fourth hit without going down.
All the while the killer is trying NOT to tunnel, but you're not allowing them to go after your unhooker.
Additionally, the survivor running OtRn DH and MoM can put WGLF in the fourth perk slot, as the safe unhook plus 3 protection hits will get them the stacks needed to pick up a dying survivor and give them yet another endurance effect.
I have to say this does well and truly prevent any form of camping, proxy camping or accidental tunneling. You cannot be within 32m of any hook for 80s after a survivor has been unhooked, because now the unhooked and unhooker are completely invulnerable.
Not really. MoM deactivates as soon as u are put into the dying state. So your hook trade scenario wouldn’t work.
Also, if u ate fully healed after taking the first protection hit u cannot be farther than 16 mters from the killer otherwise ur aura will be shown to him. moreover, a smart killer will simply focus the MoM player until he downs them deactivating the perk
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Idk what u complaining about, most survs I go against complain they revealed me without the intention to and got found in the process.
when I face GF i can consistently reveal him unless hes hiding. Its pretty consistent tbh.
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Like Im forced to pay 50k to prestige, will get basically nothing out of it and unlike what the devs said before will NOT cut down the grind, is this right? I might be getting something wrong cause it can’t be
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
I mean tunneling and camping at 5 gens i would agree is cringe
But it can be a great strategy mid to late game
true. I avoid tunneling cause its no fun, not for me not for the person being tunneled. But if Im chasing bill whos on his second hook, and I stumble upon meg whos dead on hook, I will switch for sure.
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035878#Comment_3035878
I suck as killer im not afraid to admit it, Most games I can get at least 1 kill but I also feel like Im going up against people that are like way ahead of me. I have thousands of hours on the game but Ive alway enjoyed survivor more because I liked it more. So I started branching out, and its no good lol. Like I can't even I play one or two games then im done, because I dont want to become a killer that I don't like playing against.
I know bro, Killer is not for everyone. And ur right, I always play a Killer Id like to face u know. So I avoid tunneling (unless I have to) and I dont camp at all. But some players try to justify that with excuses to face camp and tunnel at 5 gens. Its just awful
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Holy ######### man hahahahaha well done my nerd, I tip my hat to ya. That is impressive. Also I also want to hear from the devs now. Cause it seems they lied about the 75% 🤨
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035862#Comment_3035862
Not even that, but Ive also seen a HUGE increase of survivors just not doing anything at all. Hiding in lockers, sitting in the corner of the map. Just stupid stuff like that while you're being chased tunneled and camped to death and the killer STILL gets a 4k because your teammates couldn't be bothered to do anything while he was focused on you for the past 10 mins. its stupid, I don't like the way the new MMR is at all. I wish they would go back to ranks.
Oh I ser. Yeah its because ur getting newbies or inexperienced players. Because mmr is busted. They put into account how many matches u survived instead of how well u did. Its stupid tbh. If u play killer they’ll put into account how many kills u got, so if u got none but 8 hooks sucks to be u basically.
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@Buffy101 said:
Hi all! Can someone please explain something for me. So I play matches that go pretty well some pretty bad however because I have few good matches my rank keeps going up so it looks like I keep getting paired with Veterans and Im just not that good yet. Is it correct we keep going up if we win a match? Or how does it work?
i take it ur talking about survivor, yes? If so, the more u escape matches the more skilled the killers ur gonna face.
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035844#Comment_3035844
Idk my games lately ( I know the update hasn't hit) its non stop. Like the game isn't even enjoyable. Finished most of the event and I got the rift done, So now I think Im hanging up the towel til update day. I get that killers want kills, but honestly being on the end of tunneled and slugged and face camped until you're dead is just no fun at all and it gets boring. lol
Yes, exactly. I like chases tbh, both as Killer and Surv, but being focused the whole game is not fun specially in low mmrs where most survs dont have much map or chase knowledge. So the harder it is the less tempting tunneling will be
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@MrsMaliciousX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035821#Comment_3035821
basekit bt or any other perk isn't going to matter..if a killer wants you out of the game..you're out.. No perks are going to save you. LOL
I agree with that partly. The thing is, now its harder, now theres a whole new layer of “second chance”. So if u wanna tunnel, u do u. But it’s not time effective, and it will get u one measly kill by the end of the match. Cause while u waste time enough to lose 5 gens on that meg, the other 3 survs teabag u by the exit gates. So If that is what u look for in a match, sure, by all means tunnel away.
Also, believe me when I tell u, If ur playing against decent, well coordinated squad, not even tunneling the whole game will guarantee u a kill.
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Its a strat when used in a manner of “fair playness”. Tunneling the one surv the whole match is not that, that’s why they introduced the mid chapter changes with OTR and BT basekit
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@Spaceboi_Scaphandre said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035702#Comment_3035702
It's either that or revert Off the Record's buff, because as it stands the perk is making survivors invincible.
Well they are not gonna put being healed as a conspicuous action, they already confirmed it. And I really don’t think the latter will happen either, considering they want to dim instances of tunneling
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The only problem I have with legion is his matches are too long (now more than ever). He has no chase power so he is not by any means overpowered, but, its an endless circle of get hit, mend, get hit, mend. I dont even like playing as him hes so boring
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035611#Comment_3035611
Alternatively, Endurance should always apply Deep Wound after being hit. It's weird that MoM doesn't, but BT, Soul Guard and Styptic Agent do.
Because MoM is very niche its requirements are too many, therefore it is not endurance. Its another effect altogether
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The only thing is busted tbh is being healed does not deactivate it. Because against teams and even well coordinated survs it will be unfair. I mean 3 hits AND Dead Hard cmon
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@HexPleaseLetMeSpeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035527#Comment_3035527
There's nothing to accept lmfao. Once i've started to see literally some of the top killers the game has to offer, to be widdled down into tunneling and camping I KNOW there are no other options.
every fog whisperer and content creator does it every live stream, resorting to such strats only when logistically fruitful. But of curse YOU know better sure
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Overall his base kit is fine, but alchemist man 🤦🏻♂️ Hes a strong killer already no need for such strong addon.
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@HexPleaseLetMeSpeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035486#Comment_3035486
Are you actually slow? No one said I WANT to face bad survivors. The issue is that the only way to WIN against good survivors is to resort to tunneling and camping because there is literally no positives to going for multiple hooks. If MMR was based on hooks then yea maybe then, but it's not. Going after multiple people is just a waste of time and causes gens to be done like nothing.
my god man, u have ur head so far up ur…u know what, sure if u refuse to accept there are many other, more viable strats than tunneling all game sure u do u you lol
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035463#Comment_3035463
Nope, just tested in the PTB. Other endurance effects seem to follow this rule, but DH always works when used, even if already in deepwound. MoM also seems to always work too, because it doesn't relate to deepwound at all.
That must be a bug. U should report it. Cause every other instance of endurance does follow that rule. DH shouldn’t, no, can’t be different.
And yes MoM is not endurance related, it just ignores an instance where ud be put in the dying state.
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@HexPleaseLetMeSpeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035375#Comment_3035375
I'm not talking about just Sadako, he literally hasn't reached 50 wins with a good amount of killers.
No one said good survivors didn't exist before MMR. The issue is that MMR FORCES you into games with ONLY good survivors game after game.
You just don't get it do you?
Good amount = 3. Lol. Out of over 25. Jeez.
mmr forces u to go against good survs yes, so? What is the issue here? U want to just face potatoes and steamroll every match? Cmon!
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035406#Comment_3035406
In any game with half-decent survivors, they will ONLY use OtR to bodyblock, just as BT is only used now to bodyblock. This significant increases the chances of those survivors also running DH and the now broken MoM for the sweet 5 hit deny combo.
Just a quick psa, u cant use the endurance status effect while in the deep wound status. So its either OtR OR DH, not both, at least until u mend first.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035400#Comment_3035400
That's still pretty rare. I think survivors will adapt and start working to prevent 3 gens. If not they kinda deserve to have to deal with it imo. Just like when a killer let's them spilt the gens by a large distance.
rare? The life of a m1 killer at high mmr is basically that, bro. Also, u assume they have a choice. Like im the killer I can push them in any direction I want, mindgames work not only for hits and downs but for map rotation as well
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035349#Comment_3035349
If you patrol a 3 gen you'll likely leave all 4 survivors alive which tilts the 3 gen situation heavily in their favor because it's a war of attrition. Spirit can be dealt with in that situation. Nurse is all around busted and needs a rework.
I may not have expressed myself clear enough. What I meant is u herd the survs into the 3 gen getting downs as usual playing regularly but maintaining pressure on ur intended 3gen. Also, spirit with stridor is back bro no iron will to counter shes not as easy to deal with anymore.
Nurses’ basekit is fine imo, but her addons need rework, I should not be able to teleport across the map or recover as fast with her addons
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@MLady said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035358#Comment_3035358
I wasn't replying to you though. But I will now. In your case, it means survivors will have to pay attention more to the gens getting done to prevent themselves from getting into a 3 gen situation. 3 gens is not impossible to win- but it is rather difficult. That was the point. The game tends to be rather survivor sided in a lot of things, so they wanted to give killers an edge against things like swfs.
U literally quoted me bro. Pay attention then. and Again ig I set my mind to protect a 3 gen right from the start with a strong killer such as nurse or spirit it will be overwhelming for most survs as in theres not much that can be done.
And sure swf is very sweaty believe me, i play mostly GF, so I know how hard it is. however most of the player base is casual meaning u cant butcher soloq because of swf.
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@HexPleaseLetMeSpeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3033101#Comment_3033101
Bro... if you don't get it thru ur head that his 50 game streaks literally happened before MMR and SBMM was a thing. He literally can't even DO 50 win streaks anymore LMFAO.
Oh yeah because good survs and good teams were invented after mmr was implemented so true so true. He nevet said he couldn’t lol. He literally explains why he didn’t try to get 50 with Sadako on stream
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@MLady said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035332#Comment_3035332
Honestly, I play both. The change to Overcharge doesn't bother me in the least. If they want to camp the gen for 30 seconds so it regresses then I will work on a different one.
Did u pay attention to what I said? In a 3 gen situation against stronger killers that would never work.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035332#Comment_3035332
That's mostly on the survivors for getting into a 3 gen. They have plenty of ways to avoid it.
In the past 3 - 4 survivors could easily win the 3 gen. Maybe now killers will have a way to deal with it. With 2 survivors a 3 grn has always been a losing situation for survivors so nothing will really change there.
Yes that is mostly on them, that is true. However, if I set my mind to patrol a 3 gen from the start what is their game plan then? specially if I play nurse or spirit
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035295#Comment_3035295
Overcharge is fine. Pay attention and it will rarely even reach the 400% mark.
Not really. Do u know how many Killers exist? And how some of them would exploit the 400%? Cause I played a 3 gen with Clown (yes clown) and it was indeed too strong. I dont even main clown btw
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I wouldn’t say change, but anytime Im on pc I play nurse, but on console always GF. As for surv started as Dweet until Jonah came out