CrossTheSholf
CrossTheSholf
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- CrossTheSholf
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Simple. M1 is pain dayo
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917167#Comment_3917167
Heya, so by request, I've included another math situation.
There are two situations that DBD could be designed around:
- The game is 1 killer vs 4 individual survivors each with their own win condition. In order for the killer to win 50% of the time, each survivor would need a 38.5% escape rate. This is currently how the game is designed.
- The game is 1 killer vs 4 survivors who win\lose\tie together. While the game is not designed this way, I know MANY (myself included) would prefer the game to be this way. If it WAS this way, then ties MUST be considered. This ends up mathing out to survivors needing a 44.2% escape rate in order for both the killer team and survivor team to have an equal chance at winning (while also respecting ties).
Current BHVR released stats shows the following for experienced players:
Solo - 40.4% escape rate
Duo - 40.0% escape rate
Trio - 42.3% escape rate
Quad - 48.2% escape rate
For currently how the game is designed (#1 above), we're doing pretty well for survivors, as each are above the 38.5% escape rate. Solo\Duo overperforms by ~2%, Trio overperforms by ~4%, but Quads clearly overperforms with a large ~10%.
However, if we were to pretend that survivors are all a team that win\lose\tie together (which is NOT how the game currently is but imho should be), then solo\Duo underperforms at ~4%, Trio underperforms at ~2%, and Quads over perform ~4%
So is the game balanced? If we take the game at face value that BHVR has presented to us, yes, it's generally balanced but in the survivors favor - especially quad squads. If we reject BHVR's definition of how the game is designed and instead consider survivors as a team that requires 3+ escapes for any of them to win, then survivors are slightly underpowered with their "ace in the sleeve" as being in a full 4 man squad.
Very good math
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@jesterkind said:
The time has come for another one of these posts, where I attempt to fix or improve a specific part of the game as comprehensively as I can. This time, tunnelling!
I won't waste time with too much preamble about tunnelling as a problem. It requires little effort for potentially massive value, and requires a lot more effort + often specific perk choices to combat. This is bad, I want to fix it. At the same time, weaponising anti-tunnel is a problem that lurks behind every change, so I'll be trying to address and safeguard against that too.
I'll be splitting this up between basekit changes, and perk updates, starting with basekit changes.
Basekit Changes.
- Survivors now gain 10 seconds of no collision when being unhooked (Was 10 seconds of Endurance)
- Survivors gain 10 seconds of 10% Haste when being unhooked (Unchanged)
- The timer for these effects is paused for ten seconds while entering chase for the first time (New)
Notes: Lumping these together because they're all around the same thing, and I wanted clarity on what exactly would be the end result. Bottom line: Losing collision means survivors cannot bodyblock, and it not ticking down for a short bit in chase allows for people who are truly, honest to god being targeted IMMEDIATELY after unhook to get a bit longer to ensure they get somewhere safe.
By the same token, it only pauses for ten seconds because survivors could otherwise force chase by sprinting in front of the killer to gain perfect safety on setting up some kind of save for their chased teammate. Speaking of…
- For the duration of the basekit anti-tunnel protection, survivors cannot use items (New)
Notes: Somewhat self explanatory. You don't want survivors to set up a flashlight save or sabotage a hook when the killer's trying to target someone else and can't even smack the offending altruism enjoyer away. As this feature would disable on Conspicuous Action like the previous system, any survivor who brought a medkit to use (or Map or Key if they're chads) would just need to go find a gen to tap to get back into the swing of their build. That, or just wait it out, it's just ten seconds if the killer isn't nearby.
- Successfully saving someone from the killer's grasp is now considered a Conspicuous Action (New)
Notes: And, if someone were to successfully get a save - with a pallet or a perk like Head On - there's no excuse for their anti-tunnel still working. Any edge cases that slip through the cracks after the previous changes should, at least, give you two valid injured targets to chase, not just one.
Honestly this should happen either way. It's an oversight, in my opinion.
Perk Changes.
Off The Record:
- Endurance status effect changed to loss of collision.
Notes: This is functionally unchanged from how the perk's supposed to function, just extending the shield effect from being unhooked, but updated to reflect what that shield now actually entails.
Off The Record was, previously, the biggest offender for the sole source of anti-tunnel weaponising in the game, specifically Endurance bodyblocking. Losing access to this tool for bodyblocking will have an extreme domino effect on any other kind of weaponising even being possible, making this a bigger change than it may seem on the face of it.
All other OTR effects are unchanged, naturally.
Borrowed Time:
- Endurance status effect changed to loss of collision.
Notes: Same as above. BT was a lesser form of OTR for bodyblocking as well, making this a healthy change on two counts.
As before, the Haste duration increase would be unchanged.
Babysitter:
- Unchanged.
Notes: Included for completion's sake and for clarity's sake, Babysitter works in a way where it isn't affected by these basekit changes and can safely remain as it is.
Blood Rush:
- Unchanged.
Notes: Same as above.
Decisive Strike:
- Stun duration raised to 5 seconds (Was 4 seconds)
- Now activates after both unhooks (Was once per trial)
Notes: Now that off-hook bodyblocking is a non-issue, there's nothing standing in the way of Decisive Strike being a genuinely scary deterrent for killers that want to rely on waiting out the basekit intangibility. There is truly no way of weaponising this perk if it's impossible to bodyblock, any non-tunnelling activation of DS would squarely, fully, unavoidably be the killer's mistake.
Do note, DS would still deactivate when the Exit Gates are powered, so don't worry about free escapes.
Shoulder The Burden:
- Exposed changed to 15 seconds of aura reveal.
Notes: StB isn't strictly affected by these changes other than becoming that extra bit less necessary, but that's no excuse for not making it easier to use and less punishing while we're in the neighbourhood. An aura reveal still pushes the survivor that used it towards being the new target, but would require every killer to actually outplay the user in chase, instead of being given a free neutral-skip if they close the distance in time.
Power Struggle:
- Rework: When a survivor is unhooked, Power Struggle activates until a Conspicuous Action is performed. While Power Struggle is active, any pallet can be dropped while carried by the killer.
Notes: Now, Power Struggle is not an anti-tunnel perk… but it is a very unhealthy perk, so I want to make it one.
With this rework, Power Struggle would be a sidegrade to Decisive Strike. Unlimited uses and no timer, as long as you are actually being tunnelled, but you have to go down under a pallet each time or else just hope the killer walks through one. As a bonus, it'd be a weaker sidegrade that can be obtained for free, unlike DS.
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These changes are, in my opinion, the decisive blow that would knock tunnelling out of the uncontested most effective thing you could be doing spot, and make chasing someone who was just unhooked genuinely a questionable enough decision to deter most people from trying, without having any undue side effects outside of that context.
As a killer main..... This isn't that bad. Could use some fine tweaks but I'm interested in this discussion
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@Abbzy said:
Idk why people hate ghoul so much he is low A-tier at best, After nerf his antiloop isnt crazy and only thing that stands up on him is his mobility(eaven it still got solid nerf) and his ability to got injuries on survs.
Blight is deferent kind of animal, people were hating chucky back then for 10 or 12 seconds cooldonw but blight could do the same or eaven better with just 2-3 rushes. Ten second are his all rushes.
Ghoul is still solid choice for killer if the devs wont nerf him ino oblivion like they somethimes do, but comparing him to blight comon its like night and day.
Ghoul is the new skull merchant. It's hip to hate him
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Bait used to be believable
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917024#Comment_3917024
Yeah wish she could get some of her v1 power back. She hasn't been the same since 2019. Still love Pig, but I do think it's a little ridiculous that she isn't allowed to keep up with the power creep. Nightlite showing her performing consistently below the 60% ideal KR and with some of the updates we've gotten recently I just find that to be unacceptable and insulting that she is suppressed while other killers are getting meaningful buffs and reworks to make them better. Heck, they're even releasing new killers with multiple powers or that break the established "Conventional rules" of gameplay, making them automatically A-B tier. Meanwhile Pigs been sitting pretty in C-tier for like what, 6 years now? She needs more buffs for sure.
What id like to see
Traps are auto activated after all 5 gens are done.
Dash is 15% faster
Crouch is a slightly faster
Plus one box (either base or add on)
Make boxes into merciless stormesque skill checks
Remove Jakes Spleen
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910725#Comment_3910725
You are a prime example of what I am talking about. You complain and nothing else. Whenever they TRY to communicate more, all you respond with is "YOU WON'T LISTEN, WAH WAH WAH" and it comes off as more complaining for the sake of it.
They already were posting their ideas for skull merchant for criticism BEFORE saying it would even reach PTB (which they never said it would I believe. I think they were looking for community feedback before going further). Did that just mean nothing to you? The way you respond implies that no, it really didn't mean jack all.
YOU are killing this community. Everyone LIKE YOU are making things worse. Yes, we need to call out bad practices- but how are they supposed to improve with NO POSITIVE FEEDBACK?
If every piece of advice is "here's why this sucks"- how are they supposed to know what is salvageable and what isn't? Imagine if they had showed all three skull merchant power designs side by side, then asked you to rate them. Based on this comment I am almost certain you would provide so little positive affirmation that they wouldn't even be able to tell which one you hated the least, much less what ideas they could recycle for later.
You and the "They only listen to X side" hive mind are all just making the forums less useful for them than they could be. Genuinely, if you aren't willing to be constructive and provide actually usable information, just play the game and ignore the forums. The less cooks in the kitchen, the less people who care more about the game have to talk over you.
People are trying to give ideas for how the game can be fun for BOTH SIDES and consistently. That isn't what you are doing, nor is anyone sharing similar sentiments. There have been PLENTY of ideas players wanted in the game that got added.
We wanted anti-face camp and we got it. We needed more information in solo queue during and before a match- they already gave us the mid-match UI and I'm pretty sure they JUST put out an update that let's you see other survivor builds in the same lobby.
They HAVE improved. You are just too hell bent on pointing the finger at them for any and every cause for why you are unhappy.
Maybe it's time you look towards yourself for that, and let other people focus on making the game fun when you return with a better perspective.
Well put. Claps hands
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Basically the only thing I am still annoyed by is that he can fully cancel his slide after dash.
I think he should always slide, even if he press cancel during the dash, which means survivor can try to double back and it's not so easy to get next to a survivor.
Ya know. That's actually a good idea. It would increase the skill floor and not gut him.
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It feels like you either have to play like a jerk with meta perks or just get stomped. Every chase has to be under 20 seconds. You have to get a hook if you do chase. You need to be find a survivor in under the next 30 seconds, repeat l.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917284#Comment_3917284
Yeah, we know.
Someone makes sure to remind us of exactly this about once a week.
Because for some reason, killers in particular feel the need to remind the devs on a regular basis that "it's a nice game you have there, be a shame if something happened to it".
Which I don't see survivors saying, at least not nearly as frequently. Survivors seem to just give up the game and walk away quietly to find something more fun to do with their time.
I think it's a pretty big indicator from BHVR that they're asking questions the way they are right now. They just posted new stats showing that "hey, kill rates are exactly where we want them", "we've balanced out the SWF problem overall", and "killers in all brackets are eating well", and then putting it a survey asking for feedback for how it feels to lose constantly on the other side of the coin.
Because as much as people say things like you did, where "tHe GaMe CaN't FuNcTiOn WiThOuT kIlLeRs", the devs seem both aware and worried that they might be on track to "death gardening" their game.
And, frankly, so am I.
Thats not what I meant but ok. I was trying to reply to someone. Not a threat of leaving, I don't want the game to get deathgardened, but right now the game feels miserable as killer as well as survivor. I would like to see both sides pain points addressed.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917167#Comment_3917167
Always happy to see more people mathing it out, but keep in mind, their statistics show that at high MMR (where people have good experience in the game to know how to properly play) that people in a 4 man squad have their individual escape rates at 48% all the way down to solo queue being in the low 40's%. That's not outliers, that's the average across the playerbase. Just keep that in mind.
I wish we had stats for the Asian servers, since their meta is so unique. I would love to see the difference
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With no killers you have no game.
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@VirtuaTyKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917089#Comment_3917089
Well it's not much fun using a weaker killer on a survivor sided map when they are a good SWF.
In a recent game I had 1 hook. It was the event though and the seemed to be moving a tad faster than normal.
I rarely face some of the weaker killers I'm guessing because its hard mode.
Do the DEVs understand this will turn off survivors too mostly facing strong killers because you made the other ones such hard work. Besides playing dirty.
Down vote all you like you seem to have nothing else to contribute.
Uh I agree? Weaker killers need help. Gen perks should be buffed. Gen speeds should be adjusted. Both sides have valid complaints but go vastly overboard. And everyone is miserable, me included. Why the heck are you mad at me?
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I am going to run the math later today as well. But I think that outliers are ok. Id point to how R6 does their pick rate and win rate info graphs for operators and say we should get that for DBD
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8 should be 10 at very least. Or buff gen regression
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The only thing left is toning down his enraged vault speeds slightly. It should be faster than Wesker but slower than it is now
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916751#Comment_3916751
Maybe they have data that shows Survivor players are the ones who take the most frequent breaks from DBD? I don't take that many breaks from DBD, but I do sometimes stop playing Survivor to play only Killer for a little while.
I can only speak for myself, but it's more fun to play Killer than it is to play Survivor at the moment.
That's actually fairly logical
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It feels so survivor sided tbh
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916303#Comment_3916303
60% win rate for killers vs 40% win rate for survivors.
= survivor sided XD
Individual
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ah yes, noted S tier killers the Twins, Freddy, Sadako,…… lmao
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915925#Comment_3915925
On that we agree.
Survivors escaping 40% of the time means that a SIGNFICANT portion of the time, only one person is escaping, likely through the Hatch, which does not even count as a win.
Survivors win individualy
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The blind should be the same length as the one inflicted
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915921#Comment_3915921
I'm afraid that being the power role does not mean Killers should be winning all of their matches.
It is, after all, a game. Games are supposed to be fun for all players, not just you.
Being pre-designed to lose is certainly not fun, or would you say that the current state of the game is healthy?
60% isn't all their matches. It means the average matches ends in between a a 2k or 3k. And that's even with the unhealthy state the game is in where you have to optimize efficiently or get stomped on both sides. I play killer and survivor and I rarely have fun as either. The base core of the game is broken
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It used to be a bigger part of the game in 2016. Now it's just chase and gen focused
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915883#Comment_3915883
Which is why I said 55%. Slightly over two Kills per match on average.
I believe this gives Survivors more wiggle room.
I do think it's funny how you are concerned that Killers would never "win" with a 50% KR, but not how Survivors never win when they get less than two people out per match.
Killers are the power role. That's what asym is.
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6I2OI69PX6CB/killrates.png
Freddy nerf when?
Clearly we must nerf Freddy, vecna, and twins
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915778#Comment_3915778
It already started.
So should we nerf Freddy and twins too? They are clearly on by that standard. Smh survivors I swear
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915817#Comment_3915817
Lol no, 69 percent is nearly 10 percent higher than the goal, they need dealt with. I'm sorry, we can have both the lower tiers brought up to standard and the higher tiers brought down at the same time.
That way we can achieve killer variety.You make killer variety by bringing weaker killers who struggle up. Not shoving good killers into the Chucky/SM bin
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Well you got your stats. Now what
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I am sure the guy who was complaining about stats will be happy with this.... Doubtful
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Bug
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As. Killer main the ghoul has a few big weaknesses.
Tight loops with los breakers- especially after his recent nerfs these are an excellent defense at preventing him from grabbing you, and if he wiffs l, allowing you to get distance to another loop.
Ledges- if you are able to loop near a ledge and the ghoul isn't attentive they can easily slide off the edge of something.
Do not camp or pre drop pallets- especially if he's enraged. Try to go for the stuns.
Gyms are your friend, especially if they have a pallet nearby or in it.
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@Teroo said:
Mine would be something like this
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AV8LFFGVBJBZ/my-image.png
Seems about right to me
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Could prolly report it as a bug tbh
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The devs need to make a reduced chance of same killer filter
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@tjt85 said:
The Ghoul got nerfed!? Pfft.
I played him today and I didn't notice any difference. Still the third best Killer in the game by a long shot.
And that's ok. It's fine to have anothe killer who can compete with nurse, blight, and Billy. I'd put him between spirit and Billy
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It should deactivate during end game
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He is fine after the nerf. Just a few bugs remain
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I feel like this is acceptable and I'm fine with the nerfs if it makes survivors stop whining
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He feels way better now imo. Hits aren't free anymore. Weakers lock on. Instead of s tier he's a tier. Survivors just need to not camp pallets and windows against him
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Ghoul is fine now. He's not a free hit machine anymore and is still strong enough to be in a tier. Just hold tight to tight loops and you'll be fine
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@ble3kaudio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913361#Comment_3913361
these are the biggest problems! every pallet is a free hit no matter what. wait for drop, user power free hit. no drop, can instantly catch you. mobility into cancel to an instant hit is also frustrating. The two worst things about this killer and they are left in.
The cancel is his only way of downing. Otherwise he turns into an M1 killer for downing….like legion
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P{layed a few games as and against him…. He feels way less oppressive on both ends. Probably about the same strength as Spirit and Dark Lord.
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Wow
Way to murder pentimento. That's so bad
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This kills an alternative slowdown.... Again
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@Mandy said:
We are looking at adjustments to The Ghoul, HF1 is too soon to get any proper changes in as we do like to give things a little bit of time on the Live game for players to adapt.
Our Designers already have a few tweaks that can be made for the next hotfix to have the character more in-line of what we expect, more details on those will be with the patch notes on its release.
Please leave his cooldowns and cancels alone
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@mejchar said:
that killer need a nerfs for his dashes, bug fixes, and cooldown ability nerf, cause its not fun to play opposite it, maybe its fun to play him, but playing 25 games and 24 games are Kanekis, nah, he needs adjustments and all people who like this game know it, maybe u are blinded cause u are Kaneki main but as survivor its not that fun
Huh
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Add on adjustments, maybe removal of deep wound, or changing it so it only applies it to injured survivors. Maybe a 15% shorter range