Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001006#Comment_4001006
If a survivor is looping any of those loops for more than 60 seconds, it is a skill issue on the killer. You assume every survivor plays perfectly at every loop every time. That's simply not how life works. Take everyone's favorite killer blight. Those pallets are gone in 5 seconds and are absolutely unsafe.
If you are balancing the game assuming the survivors are a 4 man swf comp squad and the killer is scratched mirror Myers, you're not going to have an accurate lens to consider balance changes for this game.
So we're supposed to assume killers play perfectly at every loop every time, but we shouldn't assume survivors play perfectly at every loop every time?
And if killers don't play perfectly at every loop every time, it's a "skill issue". But if survivors don't play perfectly at every loop every time, it's expected and BHVR should help them out?
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@MoZo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000396#Comment_4000396
it seems they coded it to work ONLY if the aura reading from the survivor is a duration effect instead of a proximity area like kindred, wiretap and possibly the Crimson Stamp addon for the map.
I think this is a very, very good idea from the devs to make sure this perk isn’t abused in the cases where a surv has kindred or wiretap.
My main thought process is that survivors shouldn’t be punished for items or perks that their teammates use. The reason why it would be unfair if Kindred worked with Deerstalker, is because it’s punishing the 3 survivors that didn’t bring Kindred. As in, Deerstalker should only ever work on the one survivor that caused the killer aura reveal.
And the easiest way to achieve this, is to just exclude any survivor perks or items that can reveal the killer’s aura to multiple survivors at the same time.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000529#Comment_4000529
Considering those are mostly basekit mechanics instead of specific perks, I don't personally think so. Fog Vials are also incredibly limited anyway.
why is it ok when survivor stuff completely counters entire classes of killer stuff
Distortion was nerfed for a very good reason, and I'm glad it was. We should keep that same energy for this, though.
Removing entire classes of basekit mechanics is a much worse offense than nerfing perks, because the basekit mechanics literally happen every single game.
And again, it’s not like the killer gets to use this perk for free. It has a major downside. And it heavily promotes spreading hooks. It should be allowed to have a decent secondary power.
It’s ridiculous for people to keep saying that killers should spread hooks, but also don’t want killers to have anything decently useful to help them spread hooks. Like seriously, encouraging the killer to spread hooks is more important than a couple of barely used survivor perks. This is especially true since the killer only reveals the survivor when the survivor reveals the killer.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000454#Comment_4000454
They actually opened the dev update note for that one saying it "counters a lot of perks and addons", and that "the token system and recharge mechanic makes Distortion far too effective". Those were the primary motivations behind the nerf, as quoted directly from the developers.
By that logic, should calm spirit be nerfed since it takes away an entire killer tracking mechanism for the entire game?
Should iron will be nerfed since that also takes away an entire killer tracking mechanism, that can potentially last the entire game?
Should Fog Vials be nerfed more, since they completely take away THREE killer tracking mechanisms?
Seriously, why is it ok when survivor stuff completely counters entire classes of killer stuff, because we should suddenly care when killer stuff counters survivor stuff?
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@SoGo said:
I get the thought behind this, but….
Why would they even be for then? Just a placebo effect or a button that does nothing? Might as well remove them then, since this change would make them near worthless (even more than they are now).
Go next is a flawed system (as are all of them) that needs a lot of tinkering and changes (like not having the whole thing automated because we know that won't end well).
The luck perks and offerings can just be completely reworked or removed. And if they are reworked, then zero effort needs to be made to ensure the new perks effects are useful. Just look at what BHVR did to Shadowborn, the perk I played in SO MANY games, but literal zero time and effort went into the rework, and now Shadowborn’s effect is so horribly bad that I won’t even run it for nostalgia. To be honest, Shadowborn should have gotten PTB Deerstalker’s effect, because it gives extra sight, and has a kiss/curse effect; which sounds like something shadow magic would do.
@Foggyguy said:
No, I actually enjoy having luck builds. And tbh given that they decided to not do anything about tunneling I do want to know why should people not have the ability to go next? Why should someone stay in a match that's automatically ended in less than two minutes because someone decided to tunnel as blight? There's no comeback and now no anti-tunnel mechanics so it's just wasting people's time at that point unless you want to rat for thirty minutes to get hatch.
(Since the rules around advocating for DC are incredibly murky and liable to result in bans I will clarify I'm neither advocating for or against it I'm just genuinely asking what options survivors actually have.)
People shouldn’t have the ability to Go Next in ways that bypass the DC penalties, because it’s against the game rules.
And I’m getting super tired of hearing people “not advocating for ragequitting”, but are REALLY REALLY describing situations that support ragequitting.
Like, seriously, you're really really describing the situation that “people should be able to ragequit if it doesn’t look like the game has a chance for a comeback”.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000444#Comment_4000444
Distortion was nerfed due to blanket countering aura reading perks far too effectively. Deerstalker should be given the same consideration.
It needs a new effect.
Distortion was nerfed because survivors were using it to excessively hide, which punishes the rest of their team. Survivors shouldn’t have anti-teamwork perks.
There were so many times as killer, where I wouldn’t see a Distortion user at all during a game, until after 2 or 3 survivors were sacrificed. The fact that Distortion users often sandbagged the other survivors, was more important than it countering killer perks.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000428#Comment_4000428
Not really. Stridor is one perk, this is targetting a whole class of typically underused perks.
Stridor also counters Bite the Bullet anyway? At least the grunts of pain suppression part.
It’s still the same general idea, where we question if perks should be reworked, because of barely used perks.
PTB Deerstalker heavily encourages the killer to spread hooks, and it has the major downside that it only can see survivor auras when the survivor sees the killer’s aura.
Like, the main purpose of the perk is to be able to find the survivor that is excessively hiding, so you can spread hooks better. That should be something that is greatly encouraged, and the perk having two effects make the perk more likely to be picked.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000396#Comment_4000396
Well that's good at least.
I do think that having a counter to killer aura reading perks like this is still not a good thing. We don't need indirect nerfs to Alert or Fogwise, and ESPECIALLY not Treacherous Crows.
I am totally fine with the perk not working with Kindred and Wiretap, because that would be too much aura reading of the entire survivor team.
But it should be fine to work with perks like Alert and Fogwise. Complaining about that, would be like asking for Bite The Bullet to be reworked because it indirectly nerfs Stridor.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000225#Comment_4000225
It's not reasonable at all given the post. It didn't mention anything beyond them attempting to self-unhook because they could see that no one was helping them and they had the perk to attempt a 4%. They even stuck around for the entire second stage when they didn't have to. You just assumed that the only reason someone would attempt to self-unhook is to go next, which is unfair.
The reasonable solution for the problem, is that luck perks and luck offerings offerings shouldn't unlock the ability to self-unhook.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000100#Comment_4000100
If one person rage quit, it shouldn't ever penalize the entire team.
It's really frustrating to see the dichotomy with some systems. On one hand, a system that's abusable by your opponent and is overly punishing gets snuck into not just one but two different live patches with no adjustments, based on feedback or otherwise.
And on the other hand, they pulled the plug before the PTB had even run it's course for supposedly the exact same reasons.
Pretty good job so far.
If Go Next purposely only punished 1 person per SWF, that means a 4-SWF would get 4 times as many ragequits before their penalties got really high. For example:
Game 1: SWF wants to ragequit. Player 1 ragequits and gets a penalty, Players 2, 3, 4 do not get any penalties.
Game 2: SWF wants to ragequit. Player 2 ragequits and gets a penalty, Players 1, 3, 4 do not get any penalties.
Game 3: SWF wants to ragequit. Player 3 ragequits and gets a penalty, Players 1, 2, 4 do not get any penalties.
Game 4: SWF wants to ragequit. Player 4 ragequits and gets a penalty, Players 1, 2, 3 do not get any penalties.
At this point, SWF ragequit 4 games, and each player only has 1 penalty. That is how SWFs would exploit Go Next, if only 1 person per SWF was allowed to get penalties. -
@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000161#Comment_4000161
??? This started with you saying my friend rage quit. I assumed it was a misunderstanding and so explained how that wasn't the case. Now it's become "well, your intention was to rage quit," which is a rather rude accusation but it also feels a bit frustrating since today was a series of bad matches and we held out and played through them despite how it seemed like our teammates were purposefully throwing. I thought I was clear about why I brought Up the Ante: so we were prepared in case teammates didn't attempt to rescue us. Which was why I started playing with him today to get the dailies done, because he'd been left on the hook. I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with people running the perk, but that doesn't apply to everyone.
All the time, people say, "If you keep running into X problem, there are perks for that." If you keep getting slugged, bring Unbreakable. Today it was teammates who weren't playing like we're a team (being left on the hook to reach second state or even die; a camping killer with two survivors in the basement, one slugged and one hooked, my friend rescued the hooked one and she didn't move, just stood there and let the killer down her; a prestige 100 who, after my injured friend healed her, threw down a pallet and slow-vaulted it so the killer downed him; a high-prestige player who repeatedly ran to near-completed gens and immediately failed a Merciless Storm skill check; and one player who for some reason spammed the unhook action when I tried to unhook her so she couldn't be saved after I popped the last gen and opened the exit gate, and it was down to just the two of us at two gens left so her actions gave the killer a 4k… it was a bad day, so it's not cool to be told "your intention was to rage quit" when we played through all of our matches, including those). My friend runs Botany and Self Care because experience has taught us we can't count on teammates to heal us. Up the Ante is the same thing but for getting rescued on the hook.
"we also had a backup plan in case one of us was no longer around" and "I brought Up the Ante just in case one of us died long before the other", both mean that one of you is dead before you starting using the perk. You specifically mentioned twice, that the perk is being used AFTER one of you is already dead.
So it was a completely valid assumption that you were referring to ragequitting. It' wasn't realistic for me to assume you meant " in case teammates didn't attempt to rescue us", because that doesn't require one of you to be dead long before the other.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000146#Comment_4000146
My friend started off playing solo today. He'd get left to hit second state on his first hook. So I joined, and I brought Up the Ante just in case one of us died long before the other. We had each other's backs, but we also had a backup plan in case one of us was no longer around. Or, in this case, if the only remaining teammate spent the entire match living in a locker.
Edit: I guess I should mention, my friend's usual build is Empathy, Botany, Self Care, and Bardic Inspiration. My usual build is Bardic Inspiration, Plot Twist, Diversion, and Mirrored Illusion (or Plunderer's or even maybe Red Herring, but usually Mirrored Illusion). Up the Ante is not what either of us normally run.
"we also had a backup plan in case one of us was no longer around" sounds exactly like intending to use the perk to ragequit.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000100#Comment_4000100
My friend didn't quit. He held on through second state. The only not-on-a-hook survivor stayed in a locker. My friend died and when the end screen loaded it gave him the warning.
I don't know if the third survivor got a warning for dying on their first hook, as I have no way to talk to them. I didn't get a warning. At some point, the survivor in the locker disconnected (perhaps when the hatch was closed), and the bot opened the exit gate and escaped.
I don't understand why you purposely brought a perk that completely revolves around letting people self-unhook, unless you and your friend really like the option to self-unhook when the game isn't going well.
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@Willish said:
So I just had a match that ended before it started. First person got hooked and had luck that failed to get them off, the second person disconnected, and the third was hidden in the basement. This was at 5 gens, btw. Solo queue, huh? Anyway...
I tried to 4% using the luck offering and unfortunately I failed. The killer clearly had enough of this shocking match and he'd also gone AFK at the point.
I left the match and was met with 'Your grade has been reduced to X because blah blah'. I mean, I'm not so fussed about losing a grade, but does Behaviour want me to actually finish out that match? 1 dead on hook, 1 DC, 1 in basement hiding and AFK killer.. Come on Devs. That sh*t is pathetic!
@TragicSolitude said:
Just had a match where my friend was hooked first and I was on the ground and a third survivor got hooked, and the final survivor was hiding in a locker. My friend used my Up the Ante to try to get off the hook, it didn't work, and even though they hit the skill checks in second state the final survivor stayed in the locker and never even attempted to make the save. My friend died and got the warning about "suspicious behavior."
This is ridiculous. By the time he died, three people were hooked and the final one hadn't left their locker. This system that punishes people for being tunneled or for having non-participating teammates needs to go.
To be completely fair though, both of these scenarios literally involved the person ragequitting.
As in, you can give feedback that the game should expand the Abandon function to these scenarios, but both of these people literally ragequit, and Go Next correctly identified that they ragequit.
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Why would I want to play a stealth killer with fake stealth? His footsteps are so massively loud, that survivors are often long gone by the time the killer gets there, even when he’s undetectable.
So we have a fake stealth killer, with Huntress hatchets that are way way worse than Huntress hatchets, and he gives survivors the ability to teleport around the map.
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I still think the phase 2 killer changes should have the same impact as the anti hiding update of phase 1.
I waited years for an anti-hiding update, just to watch it get nerfed into uselessness. BHVR spent so much time make sure the AFK crows didn’t ever unfairly punish survivors…. Meanwhile, they recently released a PTB that very often unfairly punished killers.
And some of the people that demanded for AFK crows to be nerfed into uselessness, are now demanding for the phase 2 killer changes to be huge and impactful.
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We were supposed to have an anti-hiding update in phase 1 of this year, but survivors complained, and made the AFK crows useless.
And we have zero news from BHVR, to let us know if they think the AFK crows are good, or if they want to fix them.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999718#Comment_3999718
Just so I understand your concern. You dont like how perks are stronger on killers like Nurse than killers like Trapper. Because of that... you're AGAINST the idea of having differing fresh hook benifits that would better fit killers like Trapper? I really fail to see the logic here. Even if BHVR took out their magic wand and made every killer perfectly balanced (which is literally impossible because balance is subjective), why would having Trapper gain a benefit that fits HIM be a bad thing?
I'm against the idea that people want to use the survivor QoL changes as an excuse to nerf the killers they don't like.
All killers need major help if the phase 2 changes happen. It's ok if some killers get more help than others, but it's completely awful when people heavily imply that some of the killers don't deserve meaningful rewards because "they're already good enough".
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999653#Comment_3999653
That doesn't look like a patch note or statement from BHVR to back the claim you made, looks more like a deflection and continuing to derail OPs post about BHVR inconsistency on what they consider "too punishing."
I just want everyone to know that your video evidence is 3 months old, and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999610#Comment_3999610
Where is the patch note for the go next system that indicates tunneling triggering the go next penalty is now a bug? Where is the patch note that proves there was any adjustment that the system is any different now than it was at release? Why was Amanova in her DM to a community manager told to go to Feedback and Support rather than Bug Reports if this is a bug and not the system working as intended?
You keep deflecting and making assumptions rather than just providing evidence of a patch note or even statement from BHVR to back up your claims that the evidence provided has been invalidated. You're just running on assumptions that the system was adjusted so you can make excuses to not accept evidence. Until you provide proof of your claim I'm done going back and forth. If you won't provide a patch note or statement from BHVR to back up your claim here I don't trust you won't do the same with any other evidence I were to provide - it'll be some excuse from you without any proof, only assumptions.
I do have to say well done though. You derailed a post about how the devs calling antitunnel/slug "too punishing" for killer by just wanting to argue about tunneling triggering the go next penalty. Good job removing focus from the actual issue of BHVRs inconsistency in what they consider "too punishing." 😂
Are you claiming Go Next is bugged, or are you claiming Go Next is working as intended and you want to give feedback that it should work differently?
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999587#Comment_3999587
You're making the claim the system was adjusted to tunneling triggering the go next penalties. Any evidence I provide you're going to make an excuse for why you find it unacceptable. Meanwhile you keep deflecting and refuse to provide actual evidence the system had adjustments made to tunneling triggering the go next penalties, you just provide assumptions. Provide me a statement or patchnotes as proof that the system was adjusted after the killswitch that invalidates the previous videos because I don't believe you're arguing in good faith when you just demand more evidence without providing anything more than assumptions for your claims.
Do you know how bug reporting works? If you claim a bug is happening in the current patch, you provide evidence from the current patch. That is how bug reporting works.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999555#Comment_3999555
So you have no evidence from BHVR through patch notes or statement that says they made adjustments to tunneling triggering the go next penalties? You only have assumptions but want me to continue providing evidence to you while you refuse to provide any to back your claim.
Why would BHVR remove it from killswitch without any statement or patch notes on adjustments they made? When have they removed something from killswitch they made adjustments to without including it in a statement or patchnotes?
You're making a claim that Go Next is still often punishing survivors incorrectly. The logical way to support this claim is CURRENT VIDEO EVIDENCE. And if Go Next is really still often punishing survivors incorrectly, then it should be really easy to find current video evidence.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999540#Comment_3999540
So you have no proof that BHVR made any adjustments to tunneling triggering the Go Next penalties? You've been given evidence of people experiencing it but you are making excuses for why you won't accept it and will provide no evidence of your claims that the system was adjusted even though players are still complaining about being forced into penalties through tunneling. The videos being before the killswitch doesn't matter if no adjustments were made to the system. Provide proof that adjustments were made to the system that invalidates the videos - provide patch notes or statement from BHVR that adjustments were made so tunneling will not trigger the Go Next penalties.
It doesn't make logical sense to kill switch something, make zero changes, then turn it back on again. When has that ever happened before in the entire history of the kill switch?
The fact that is was easy to get video evidence before the kill switch, and extremely difficult to get video evidence after the kill switch, should be proof that some adjustments were made. Because if this problem is still happening often, then why can't you link us recent videos of it happening?
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@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999488#Comment_3999488
completely wrong, this happened to me too after the release of TWD thanks to troll teammates and slugging killer, even Jocelyn confirmed to me in a private message that they turned go next penalty back on, I can even share her answer
my post about it
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453210/go-next-prevetion-yet-again-sucks-why-are-you-enabled-it#latest
- Actually, the videos were recorded before Go Next was kill switched. You can check the timestamps of the videos. Yes, it is true that Go Next was later enabled again, but it's still a real life fact those videos happened before the killswitch.
- I don't see a video attached to that post. Has this problem happened more than once to you since the TWD update? And if so, are you able to record a video of it?
- Even if we assume that Go Next did trigger because of the tunneling, the correct response would be to investigate why it happened in that specific game. It's clearly not happening every time someone gets tunneled out of the game early, or we would have a very large amount of video evidence by now.
- If you were in a SWF with these teammates, maybe Go Next triggered because your teammates were ragequitting… because 3 people in that game actually did ragequit, and they should have gotten punished by Go Next. And if this is true, then maybe Go Next needs to re-evaluate if it should be punishing an entire SWF just because some of the people ragequit.
- If you were not in a SWF with these teammates, then it's still a fact that 3 people ragequit that game. Go Next should not be punishing you for ragequits that happen, when you aren't in a SWF with those people.
- The main point is Go Next should be investigated on how it handles games where multiple people are clearly ragequitting.
@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999488#Comment_3999488
Can you show me which patch has the go next penalty update? The only update I can find in patchnotes is to AFK crows, not Go Next. Seems like BHVR killswitched it for couple weeks when there was the influx of players from FNAF and anniversary event but turned it back on without any changes. There is a post here on the forums of someone asking why was it turned back on after being tunneled out by a killer and hit with the penalty.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452233/being-penalized-for-getting-tunneled/
I don't think the patch notes ever mentioned when Go Next was enabled again. I think people are assuming it happened with The Walking Dead 9.1.0 patch, but I don't think BHVR confirmed it.
It doesn't change the fact that the two videos I commented on, were recorded before Go Next was kill switched.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999392#Comment_3999392
There's also lots of screenshots and people posting stories about getting the go next penalty from being tunneled out on reddit because not everyone records their matches.
I think those videos happened with the old version of Go Next, that happened before it was removed from the game so it could be fixed.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998908#Comment_3998908
Whether or not the killer would win that match wasn't the point. It's BHVRs inconsistency on what is considered "too punishing" depending on the side you are playing.
At no point were killers going to have a time out penalty (let alone one survivors could force on them) with the antislugging/tunneling but BHVR said it was "too punishing." Meanwhile, in the live version of the game without testing in the PTB, if a killer chooses to quickly tunnel out a survivor that will trigger the go next penalty and force the survivor player into a time out from playing any DBD - not only has the survivor player lost the match but they also now cannot continue playing DBD until the time out penalty goes away.
Can you link us some video proof of Go Next triggering because someone was tunneled out too fast?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999171#Comment_3999171
I call BS on this.
Because, if tunneling was actually rare, then we should be able to implement the changes from the PTB as written, and have nearly zero impact for the downsides (again, because tunneling is rare).
And everyone gets a huge boost to other play styles because almost no one is tunneling.
Yet that's completely counter to the community meltdown that forced them to stop the ptb early and shut down the changes indefinitely.
So, either Scott is right and the community had a meltdown over nothing, or Scott is wrong and tunneling is way, way more common than his limited test shows. (Hint: it's the second one)
The PTB’s definition of “bad tunneling” was terrible and unrealistic. You forgot that option.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999217#Comment_3999217
AFK crows aren't that close of a comparison. Penalities from being tunneled are, at least, uncommon, yes, but crows were very, very common. I got them mutiple times and saw multiple people get them, while playing both killer and survivor, for reasons they didn't deserve. That was a big issue. The DC penalty is a smaller one but more punishing, since it affects your ability to even get into a game.
But if you're that skeptical, then make a post requesting evidence.
There already have been requests for real evidence, and I never actually saw anyone post the real evidence.
And if there was a lot of real evidence, I’m sure some of the people on these forums would have posted it by now.
It’s just not believable that these false positives are happening enough to be a problem.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999162#Comment_3999162
People in the forum have said it's happened to them. I haven't investigated. I also don't know why they'd lie about a mechanic issue.
Just because there's tunneling in my matches doesn't mean I'm the one getting tunneled. And when it is me, I'm just surviving long enough to not get the penalty. Not everyone will.
And rare or not, it shouldn't be happening at all.
People might lie about it because they hate the Go Next system, and want it removed. There absolutely is a motivation for lying.
The fact that we don’t have a lot of proof of it happening, is proof that it’s not happening enough to be a problem. Something that only happens like 1 in 1,000,000 games, is not a problem.
Remember that we had A LOT of videos from people claiming the AFK crows were unfairly punishing them, because it’s 2025, and there are a lot of survivors that can figure out how to record their matches. Why is it that we had so many videos of AFK crows, but pretty much zero videos of Go Next?
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@cogsturning said:
The system is going to be tweaked and brought back in a better form
Because there's little precedence for this level of optimism. People are feeling defeated. Fog vials were obliterated in a week. As far as i know, DC penalties for getting tunnelled fast are still a thing. There was finally the idea that something big would happen and it's hard not to feel as though it's being added to the backlog trash heap of unfinished ideas and broken promises.
”As far as you know”? So it’s not happening to you personally, even though you deal with lots of tunneling?
Doesn’t anyone think it’s weird that we don’t have a lot of video proof of this happening? Because if it’s happening enough to be a problem, there should be a lot of video proof, right?
Or it is possible it might be doing this only 1 in 1,000,000 games, and people are trying to massively over exaggerate the problem?
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That screenshot doesn’t give enough information. Is 1 generator repaired, and all the other generators are at 0%? Is 1 generator repaired, and 3 generators are at 99%?
It doesn’t make sense to have anti-tunnel rules based on the number of generators, because survivors would just 99% generators.
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Pre-nerfed tombstone addons should never come back. They were the most unfun addons in the entire game for survivors.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998292#Comment_3998292
What exactly is it you want for killers? The rewards for not tunneling are fairly significant, so what more could be done? The only thing I can think of is 25% repair penalty on survivors as extra incentive for not tunneling, but then perks would have to be adjusted to compensate for this and avoid the problem of survivors just giving up because doing a gen becomes impossible beyond a certain percentage.
The rewards for not tunneling should be similar to the kill rate loss that would happen from the anti-tunnel mechanics.
Remember that it's mandatory for the kill rates always be around 60%, and if tunneling gets major nerfs, then the kill rates will need to be raised back to 60% somehow. So BHVR can either choose to have powerful rewards for not tunneling (to help encourage killers to avoid tunneling), or they can give generic buffs to the killer side (or generic nerfs to the survivor side) that apply regardless of the killer's playstyle (which means killers could tunnel if they wanted to).
The only other option is for the tunneling nerfs to be small enough that they don't majorly change the kill rates.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
Theres alot to unpack here, but we should all want the best of both roles. Heres my diagnosis and recommendations. Hopefully no matter your stance, you agree.
I'm not gonna bore anyone with personal life and #########, but I am a very unbiased player when it comes to whats best for the game's balance. I'm actually studying Game Design in University at the moment, because ever since I started playing DBD in 2016, I've always wanted to work for DBD's Balance Team.
- The Anti Tunnel and Anti Slug machanics had good intentions, specifically for Casual players as stated by the devs.
- They were noticeably overtuned and strengthened forms of frustrating gameplay for killers, like bully squads forcing garunteed pallet saves.
- The changes make all forms of tunneling too hard to do, and if you manage to succeed, you were severely punished.
What tunneling I find unacceptable is tunneling at 5-3 gens. It's unnecessary, its annoying to vs, and this update fixed it very well.
What form of tunneling is acceptable to me is when almost all generators have been repaired, and forcing someone out of the game to reduce pressure is the only way to win at this point in a match. This update destroyed all forms of tunneling by making catching a recently unhooked survivor too hard and long, while actively removing your ability to defend generators if you succeed in killing them.
Simple number tweaks to the punishment requirements and a new requirement can easily salvage the machanic, I'd have no problem with it as either role if: A, the minamum stage requirement to avoid giving free gen speed was changed to 4 stages and 3 or more generators are incomplete. B, killing a survivor after hooking them previously to make all forms of generator defense disabled should also require 3 or more incomplete generators to trigger. C, when 2 generators or less remain, the Hook Protection duration is lowered to 10 seconds.
This way, actually tunneling someone (trying to kill them when spreading hooks can still be an option) is properly punished for, while tunneling in end game isn't because thats necessary to win as majority of the roster.
Anti Slug is bad simply because its a direct buff to SWFs and doesn't help casuals much at all. The auto recovery is good, but also giving basekit Tenacity wasn't. Choosing between recovering and crawling was strategic, you either try to get picked up while the killer is away, or you set up for a grasp save. This update made it far too easy for coordinated groups of survivors to garuntee saves with Power Struggle and Flip Flop, as well as any Background Player + Flashlight builds. It was quite literally impossible to avoid getting stunned if these players managed to get in your lobby.
The machanic's basekit unbreakable is quite flawed. A strong effect that is never going to occur unless you're vsing a Bully Squad. It can be fixed by: A, making the resolve bar (Anti Slug) pause when survivors are near you, similarly to Anti Camp. B, make recovering or crawling a choice again. C, reduce the timer to 30 seconds, but it has to be regained each time its used. D, basekit Soul Guard if the killer is ground camping, but this and the machanic entirely disables when all generators are complete. E, the machanic completely disables when 2 survivors remain.
This aims to target extreme slugging only, while not making survivors completely immortal if they coordinate builds together. Anti Slug will actually help you pick yourself up more often if the killer is capable of picking you up, but chooses not to. Slugging for the 4K is still a viable strategy, since the 2 remaining Survivors can't use it anymore.
- In an attempt to balance these machanics further, the devs temporarily delayed their release, stating they want these features to be "less punishing for killers." For reasons stated, this statement is completely true and quite frankly seemed kindof obviously broken.
There is nothing wrong with that. They aren't too sure what should be done to balance it quite yet, and its a big machanic that's going to need testing before hitting live servers. Its not something they can just quickly number buff and send out post PTB, coding other changes takes time and alot of work, believe me, I'd know.
What I want to know is, do you agree? I'll put a poll, and I want unbiased explanations on your thoughts. Thank you.
It's ok if Anti-slug helps survivors pick themselves up when the killer could hook that survivor.
It's not ok if Anti-slug helps survivors pick themselves up when the killer literally can't hook that survivor. Because that would be punishing the killer for slugging even though it wasn't the killer's choice to slug.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998690#Comment_3998690
Difficult to get a response out of you, I suppose.
No interest in idea-crafting or improving systems? Nothing to add?
I am genuinely curious on where we stand. If not for me, for others who may agree with you.
I'm interested in improving systems, but not with you. I don't owe you an explanation. I'm done this conversation.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998627#Comment_3998627
Since you failed to even attempt to start a dialogue after I said you wouldn't get something to replace tunneling, I spoke to other people and further refined my ideas.
I am not opposed to a stacking bonus, or a permanent bonus.
I don't care.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998292#Comment_3998292
40% off a gen and 20% haste is pitiful? Imagine running a regression build in addition to those numbers. Gens would be impossible if the killer has good gamesense or runs gen info perks like Tinkerer. Killers who already don't tunnel (of which there are many) would have their KRs sky rocket with numbers like that.
This is a reward after 6 non-tunnel hooks, that only happens once.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997818#Comment_3997818
You can say the same for both sides. I always see survivors tbag in ext gates, especially when killer did poorly in the match.
Honestly while I don't like tunnel/camp/slug, I don't blame anyone doing it.
Those things aren’t comparable. You’re comparing killer strategies that can greatly help win a game, to survivors doing something that rarely affects if the survivors win a game.
Your comparisons should be survivor strategies that can help win games, but are frustrating for killers. Things like survivors excessively hiding, or survivors preventing the killer from hooking a survivor.
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Hooked survivors shouldn't count as valid targets for aim dressing. That is the actual rule you want. If aim dressing was completely removed, you wouldn't be able to just hold down the lunge button to hit survivors, and would instead need to manually stop lunging if you wanted to hit survivors before the full lunge has occurred.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998385#Comment_3998385
Also best way to find a survivor? Hook some one you will see their aura problem solved again..
Are you talking about the nerfed BBQ, that can be easy dodged by survivors, and often showed zero survivors??? Or the nerfed BBQ would show 1 survivor on the exact opposite side of the map, and the aura reveal would end long before the killer could get anywhere near that location, and the survivor was long gone before the killer got there?
That was such a horribly bad reward for not tunneling.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998292#Comment_3998292
Cool cool.
What would an acceptable reward be to you?
I'm not going to bother. You already said you're automatically going to reject anything that I would suggest.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998286#Comment_3998286
You are not going to get a tunneling replacement. You are not going to get anything even remotely equivalent. This is because we are trying to fix a problem, not replace it with a new issue.
There is no equivalent to removing a player from the game, which it would seem is what you want.
Ten seconds of 20% Haste (reminder that 3% was gamebreaking), 40% off of a gen (reminder that is more than anything else ever) and uncounterable information isn't good enough and is a "pitiful" reward.
You know, I'm curious. What would you label as acceptable?
Giving killers a pitiful reward isn't helpful. I'm going to say your reward idea should never happen.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998254#Comment_3998254
Say, arbitrarily, that if you hook 6 Survivors and none of them are hooked twice in a row, you get like 20% Haste until a damage state and forty percent off a gen plus Killer Inistinct instead of aura reading on the lower hooked Survivor (unless you're an S-tier)
Haven't put a huge amount of thought into it. Just thought that people should be more rewarded the longer they stick with not tunneling.
This is pretty much the most frustrating part about this PTB. People simultaneously admit that tunneling is massively powerful, and yet they want killers to have pitifully small rewards for not tunneling.
Just no.
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@Pulsar said:
How would we feel about ramping up rewards for continuing to hook unique Survivors?
For example if you hook 4 Survivors, with nobody being hooked twice in a row, you get an extra bonus.
Do you have an example this extra bonus?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
So a few years ago on PTB, BHVR tested this new idea called "The Finisher Mori" where they had some anti-slugging (yay) with all survivors getting a basekit Unbreakable (no recovery bonus.) However, if at any time all remaining survivors were hooked or slugged, the game ended. All of them died and the last survivor downed was instantly killed with a Mori. You have No Mither and Unbreakable the actual perk to get up really fast? Doesn't matter, you're dead. Instantly.
Of course, survivors were livid. Most killers mains were like "Nah, we love this!" especially the S-Tier killers able to slug all 4 survivors before even one of them was able to get up in some cases.
Now what did BHVR do? They listened to the overwhelming negative feedback from survivor mains and scrapped it to be reworked. Later, they came back with the Finisher Mori we have today.
THIS is what they are doing now with these Anti-Slugging/Anti-Tunnel TESTS.
So anyone, especially veterans, calling BHVR insulting names or such because they didn't push this to Live, are being hypocritical. Just a year or two ago, the tables were turned.Most killers hated that PTB because it gave survivors unlimited basekit unbreakable.
The entire time I was on that PTB, survivors were trying to weaponize the anti-slugging mechanic, by purposely creating scenarios where I was literally unable to hook them.
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Being told that it's a major problem for killers to slug, but that it's 100% awesome if survivors want to force the killer to slug, was such a massive double standard. If slugging is so bad, then killers should be able to remotely hook survivors off the ground, as one of their rewards for avoiding tunneling.
And nerfed basekit BBQ, that survivors could easily dodge, and often revealed zero survivors…. was such an insultingly bad "reward" for avoiding tunneling.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996669#Comment_3996669
And then that survivor crawls away and gets up... I dont really see it a normal thing for a killer who was hooking originally to camp a slug for 4 minutes in an attempt to avoid tunneling penalties. 4 minutes of no pressure is WAY worse than a 25% buff and locked gens.
It’s more likely that some killers will just get so frustrated at the situation, that they’ll slug the survivor, and just go somewhere else to find a different target.
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@UnicornMedal said:
There are a good amount of mechanics proposed to help you find a different Survivor to hook and keep track of who was previously hooked to avoid that. You only get locked out of regressing gens if you hard tunnel the same Survivor in spite of those mechanics. Which means that you are being held accountable for deliberately forcing someone out of the trial.
Good amount of mechanics?
To find a new target, killers literally only get a nerfed basekit BBQ, that survivors can easily dodge, and very often shows zero people even if the killer is spreading hooks.
And if basekit BBQ shows zero people, then it’s just too bad for the killer, because they need to wander around the map and hope they find someone new, instead of accidentally finding someone that’s considered a “tunnel” survivor.
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@LordGlint said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9U033EJGRDIZ/1000001901.jpg
Everytime someone suggested killers being able to abandon, it typically gets shot down since they still have a chance to make a comeback. How is this any different?
It’s probably because killers might purposely slug survivors that are on death hook, because they are afraid of the tunneling penalties.
Which means a survivor, that might have normally just gotten removed from the game, is now just getting repeatedly slugged because the killer doesn’t want massive penalties.
