Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@LordGlint said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9U033EJGRDIZ/1000001901.jpg
Everytime someone suggested killers being able to abandon, it typically gets shot down since they still have a chance to make a comeback. How is this any different?
It’s probably because killers might purposely slug survivors that are on death hook, because they are afraid of the tunneling penalties.
Which means a survivor, that might have normally just gotten removed from the game, is now just getting repeatedly slugged because the killer doesn’t want massive penalties.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996456#Comment_3996456
But should people force themselves to endure unfun or miserable things? It totally is valid reason.
People aren’t literally forced to play a game of DBD.
But if someone ragequits, they should be forced to get a punishment. They deserve a punishment for breaking the game rules.
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@cburton311 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995588#Comment_3995588
But the root cause is they aren't enjoying the game. The symptom is they are quitting. You can't solve a problem treating symptoms, you need to find the root cause and fix that.
The root cause of the problem is that people think “not having fun” is a valid reason for ragequitting.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996408#Comment_3996408
What you mean you won't find info on individual killers? You totally can.
There are specific boxes that are only available on the overall killer or overall survivor stats.
For example, the Average Kill Rate box is only available on the overall killer stats. Look at your screenshot you just posted. The Average Kill Rate box isn’t there, because it’s not an individual stat.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996353#Comment_3996353
Look man… hag is busted, needs nerfs!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/H74ERBCUCDQI/image.png
but in reality…
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HYT1ACY73YQ8/image.png
it has been one match!
If we give some "proof", let's do the whole picture.
@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995196#Comment_3995196
Noo, show us how many matches you played the survivior aswell. Escape rate is irrelevant
Check your official stats again…
The box that says "Average Kill Rate" only appears for the Total Killer Stats. You won't find that box under any of the individual killers.
Similarly, the box that says Escape Rate with the escape icon, only appears for the Total Survivor Stats. You won't find that box under any of the individual survivors.
And if you had a problem with the official stats, you could have just scrolled down like half a foot, to see the screenshot that showed the actual in-game stats at 34 escapes in 66 trials. The official stats are still broken, because BHVR never bothered to fix all the bugs on their online website, so they aren't even accurate anyway… and people should either use the in-game stats or they should manually track their stats.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996243#Comment_3996243
You keep circling back to this remote hooking thing that isn't even on the table. It's like saying I want all killers to now be able to fly, which has nothing to do with any of the upcoming changes that are probably going to be obliterated anyway.
The upcoming changes should be obliterated.
None of this was ever about the game feeling more fair… is always always about the game feeling more fair FOR SURVIVORS ONLY.
It was always about survivors getting massive massive changes to help them out, and killers getting absolutely garbage in return. Killers get nerfed BBQ that can be easily dodged and often shows zero survivors, they get nerfed Pop, and they get a bit of haste that's not enough to actually get to their next target. It's absolutely insulting that is considered a fair trade for completely changing camping, tunneling, and slugging.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996226#Comment_3996226
I'm fine with uneven maps. I'm fine with gens taking longer. Regression doesn't even need a buff. The overall time could be increased, and if people want to devote their builds to speeding it up, they can. And some killers absolutely need buffs, if not total reworks.
But I can't even TRY to win if I'm slugged. I'm not asking for free wins. I want matches that feel fair and close. 60% is fine, I just don't think that percent is evenly spread. There are people with 80%-90% KRs acquired through cheese tactics. Then there are killer-players under the 60%. They need the new buffs to move up.
In my killer matches, everyone is usually around until about the same time, because I spread hooks. Everyone gets time to engage. I prefer to see everyone have 20k+ points on the scoreboard. But other killers are fine with sending someone out with a less than 10k score. The fatalism isn't just about losing. It's about feeling like you didn't have a chance to play at all.
And you can still feel like you had a chance to play as survivor, if killers were able to remotely hook.
Your definition of what is fair to survivors, doesn’t require killers to manually hook survivors. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996205#Comment_3996205
Because survivors have been stomped for so long that it's just accepted and addressing it with any sort of objectivity seems impossible for many people, even people that play the role. I go into my survivor matches with a fatalistic view. I expect to die and am surprised if i don't. I don't bring that view to my killer matches. I'm surprised when I lose. This is a problem. I should be able to feel equal about both roles since I understand both roles equally.
I don't know what's going in your matches that's not going on in mine. But again, I stop hook denials myself. The most frustrating thing in my matches is endless exhaustion perks letting people just zoom away from chase.
The kill rates are supposed to eventually be the same before and after this patch, so fixing any survivor issues won't actually help a fatalistic view.
Instead, it would just shift what you're upset about. For example, if BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by making maps much worse for survivors, then you'll just be fatalistic about the maps. If BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by super buffing generator regression, then you'll just be fatalistic about generators. If BHVR moves the kill rate back up to 60% by buffing the killers themselves, then you'll just be fatalistic about the killers themselves.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996179#Comment_3996179
Tension and frustration aren't exactly the same thing. Chases are still tense. Hookings are still tense. Trying to finish a gen while a terror radius grows louder is still tense. If anything, slugging will be more tense for both sides because its not so one-sided. Killers will have to worry about losing their slug; survivors now have some hope of getting up but it will still be tense because you don't want to be found. And 90s is a long time.
But what is even comparable to slugging and tunneling by survivors towards killers? There's nothing a survivor can do to incapacitate or remove the killer's agency short of bully squads, who are too uncommon to base the game around and can be still combated.
And here's the main issue.
You purposely define problematic behavior in a way that can only affect survivors, and then claim that is proof only survivor issues are important.
Because really, what people care about are things that are FRUSTERATING. That is the main thing that connects camping, tunneling, and slugging. And similarly, being forced to slug is frustrating for the killer.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996171#Comment_3996171
I'm really saying the same thing over and over here.
Getting the person to the hook is part of the tension. Laying on the ground is the opposite of tension.
Every killer-player hooks. Not every killer-player slugs. Remote hooking affects every single player and every aspect of the game. Anti-slugging affects everyone, but only at specific times and in small ways, and revolves solely around killers who slug. And not even that drastically, because 90 seconds is plenty of time to pick someone up.
You aren't even going to feel these measures if you don't perform the actions. That's not the case for remote hooking.
This isn’t a fixation I've seen before. What has happened to make you not want to travel to the hook?
It's literally the double standard of being told that slugging is bad, but only when it negatively affects survivors.
It's literally the double standard of being told that when slugging problems that negatively affect survivors are a MAJOR PROBLEM that needs big solutions, but slugging problems that negatively affect killers aren't important at all and killers should just deal with them.
If "tension" was so important to this game, then there shouldn't be anti-tunneling changes at all. Lowering the amount of tunneling lowers the amount of tension for a large portion of the game, because the survivors don't need to worry as much about getting removed from the game early.
The anti slugging changes also remove tension, because currently there is a risk that the killer could slug all the survivors, and win that way….. but with basekit unbreakable, the survivors don't have to worry anywhere near as much about that scenario, since they'll be able to pick themselves up if the killer takes too long. That's called removing tension away from the survivors.
Camping also creates tension for the survivors, because the survivors might worry they might not easily get a safe unhook.
The main difference is that when tension negatively affects survivors, it's bad and needs to be removed. But when tension negatively affects killers, then it's an important part of the game that needs to stay.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996157#Comment_3996157
That would be so insanely rare with a build devoted solely to traveling to the hook. Again, not equivalent. I don't just get a lengthy slugging at least once in every batch of survivor matches I play, but I also get bled out regularly. Four minutes on the ground is much worse than losing one hooking out of dozens or even hundreds.
Therefore, the anti-slugging changes are way more impactful to the game than remote hooking.
And therefore, remote hooking isn't anywhere near as big of a change as the anti-slugging, anti-tunnel, and anti-camping changes. It's not that big of a deal, compared to all the stuff BHVR wants to change this patch, and therefore it won't "remove all soul" from the game.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/UKIRPWUNQ8MC/mandy-qol-changes.png
Guys relax these are QoL features. They are not balancing changes…Devs are looking specifically at anything implemented that drastically changes kill rates and in a negative manner. More than likely these changes will not be permanent.
It's possible to have the killer player experience to be completely miserable, and still have approximately a 60% kill rate. And that really feels like BHVR's current strategy. Giving survivors massive quality of life boosts, and then pretending that the 60% kill rate is their special gift to killers.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996093#Comment_3996093
So you mean the same scenarios as I mentioned, like Boil Over in dead zones, sabos, and flashlight saves?
According to my stats, my most used perks (by a huge amount), are Lightborn, Awakened Awareness, and Iron Grasp. I clearly don't like hook denials. But I choose to deny the denials with my build. And I accoet that denials are built-in with perks, toolboxes, and flashlights.
Before you hit me with, "You can counter slugging with perks too," the two sets of perks that do these two different things are totally different in strength. Unbreakable is one time use. No Mither has a massive downside. Boons can be easily snuffed. And even if you add Soul Guard, you're still going to likely get downed again pretty fast if the killer is commiteed to slugging. If they'd buffed anti-slugging perks by making Unbreakable endless and Soul Guard longer, we maybe could have not done this.
Meanwhile, there's nothing survivors can do to combat that trio of perks I mentioned and they're not even meta. You are simply unable to stop me from getting this hooking every time with zero downsides for me.
Some scenarios are literally impossible for the killer to hook the survivor. It doesn't matter what your perks are.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996087#Comment_3996087
Again, not everyone uses cheese tactics. But everyone hooks.
How does a killer counterplay slugging? Are survivors slugging themselves?
Survivors can force the killer to slug, and the killer sometimes has zero counterplay and is just forced to leave the survivor slugged on the ground. If slugging is really a "bad thing that needs to be fixed", then this slugging scenario should be fixed too.
Otherwise, we are just sending the message that the problem isn't slugging, and that the problem is that slugging is negatively affecting survivors.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996013#Comment_3996013
I never said it was awesome. Being on the ground for 90s isn't a benefit. It's still gonna suck, it's just not utterly hopeless now and you might be able to comeback from it. Killers can still slug for their own benefit. The survivor on the ground isn't doing anything useful. Repeated slugging with still cause a bleedout.
Remote hooking is too much like special events and totally lacks thrill. 2v8 is already a mindless actionfest. I don't want regular mode to lose all of its soul. We're already getting dsngerously close with so many basekit perks. It's like having built-in classes.
So the massive camping, tunneling, and slugging changes don't affect the game's "soul" at all, but the killer being able to counterplay slugging is the game "losing all of its soul"?????
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995979#Comment_3995979
Very much so, yes, but I don't think they're comparable at all.
You play survivor, I know that. How often do you see hard tunneling and hook camping? Returning to the hook, yes, but outright camping? It's not super uncommon, but it's certainly not every match. And you can still return to the hook, you just have to remember where it is for yourself and check on it. And you have to go for the other person, which will be an easy choice, because they're the only one leaving marks now.
Now how often do you see hooking? Just about every match. How often does the hook denial happen? For me, as surv, not much, cause no one I play with is big on saves. As killer, it's rare for me because of Lightborn. I made the decesion to use a perk slot to not have to deal with saves.
And tunneling, slugging, and camping aren't going away. You can still slug, they can just [eventually] get up. You can still tunnel, your just gonna pay for it. And you can still camp. Not much has changed there if you keep the hook in sight.
Massively affecting the killers gameplay? How would anyone know when they haven't gone live yet? I think it will make some players adjust their gameplay, sure. But I'd rather adjust my gameplay as killer than be slingshotted back to the survivor lobby with 5k points or lay on the ground for minutes at a time with zero recourse.
Either slugging is bad, or it's not bad.
It's a massive double standard to say "slugging is bad when it negatively affects survivors, but it's awesome when it negatively affects killers"
And hook denial would still be in the game, for the killers that choose to tunnel survivors.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995931#Comment_3995931
Hooking is supposed to be a challenge. I don't like hook denials, but you also don't get the hook just because you got the down. If someone brings Boil Over and I can't get to the hook, I dump them on the ground. Sucks, but they outdid me with a perk. Likewise, when someone tries to blind me, they can't, because I have Lightborn. Sucks, but I outdid them with a perk.
But these are not comparable. Hooking is something that occurs in 99.99% of games. It's what you're supposed to do. The only ones where it doesn't occur at all is if the killer is outrageously toxic and let's everyone bleed out. Slugging, tunneling, and camping aren't built-in the way hooking is, and aren't even common in comparison.
I mean, talk about handholdy. I don't know what is more handholdly than an instahook.
You really think that remote hooking would be a bigger change than all the camping, tunneling, and slugging changes of this patch? Really?
You honestly don't think that all of these camping, tunneling, and slugging changes are a big deal, and they aren't massively affecting the killer's gameplay?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995580#Comment_3995580
You want to remove the hooking process, a huge part of the gameplay, in exchange for certain players being deincentives (but not stopped) from using certain tactics?
BHVR wants to massively lower Tunneling AND Camping AND Slugging, which collectively is a way way way bigger part of gameplay. I think it's completely fair for killers to get their slugging frustrations fixed too.
If BHVR is going to tell killers that slugging is bad, and they should hook survivors instead….. then it's completely fair for BHVR to actually help killers to hook the survivors.
Killers should only be punished for slugging if it's the killer's choice to slug, and remote hooking would ensure that it's the killer's fault if they slug. Keep in mind that killers would only get this option if they were spreading hooks, so killers would have to earn the ability by "playing nice".
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And this is exactly why there will still be a Go Next problem after this patch.
The number 1 reason for ragequitting are people that think “not having fun” is a valid reason for ragequitting. And “not having fun” could mean so many things. Maybe the survivor didn’t like the killer, or the map, or their teammates, or something else entirely.
And the only way to fix that problem is by punishing ragequitters. People need to learn that ragequitting is unacceptable, even if the player is “not having fun”
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@cburton311 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995136#Comment_3995136
This is such a bad take. The survivors aren't enjoying the game, so let's punish them harder. Weird logic there but alright. You can have your sadistic approach, I'll just play something else. Let's see if that fixes killer queue times.
It’s more like “survivors are purposely breaking the game rules, and therefore should be punished”.
“Not having fun” isn’t a valid reason to ragequit.
@Aven_Fallen said:
Now the person Killer Mains have made fun of for years and who was (according to said Killer Mains) responsible for many bad changes for Killers is the one people should listen to?
Man, you guys really try to twist it as you need it.
Killer mains aren’t a hive mind.
And this was the only person in the entire company that we knew was at Red Ranks. And people can say whatever they want about how easy it was to reach Red Ranks, but the fact was that every other BHVR streamer was hard stuck at like Purple Ranks or Green Ranks.
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I still think it’s awful that killers are supposed to avoid camping/tunneling/slugging because it’s unfun for survivors, but killers are still expected to deal with pallet saves, hook sabotages, and other hook denial mechanics.
All of the “playing nice” killer rewards are terrible. We get nerfed BBQ, nerfed Pop, and haste that doesn’t last long enough to actually get to the next survivor.
Killers should get the ability to remotely hook a survivor, off the ground, to a random hook, like the ability from the first 2v8.
Instead, we get told that slugging is a major problem…. but only when it negatively affects survivors. But it’s totally cool when slugging negatively affects killers.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995217#Comment_3995217
I mean he's only played 66 trails. If he is a killer main bring in full meta perks by farming on killer vs baby killers and has really good game sense from his time on killer plus ideas on how to loop and mind game. I doubt low MMR killers can even touch him. Add in some natural talent for gaming and bam you have a mast of the low to early mid ranks. Even more so with friends.
I'm surprised no one noticed the other really important fact from the screenshot….
It was 66 survivor trials during this tome, and 0 killer trials during this tome. As in, the only reason why we are able to calculate my official stats for survivor is because I played 0 killer games in that timeframe.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995147#Comment_3995147
Ah, so you've never played survivor once in your life.
Actually, my official (inflated) stats are 68% escape rate, and my actual is 34/66 = 51% escape rate.
Which means my survivor stats are probably way better than yours.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995136#Comment_3995136
Or you know, we could try actually fixing the biggest issue survivors have had since launch and see if that fixes it instead of whatever you are saying.
A giant portion of the ragequits are completely unrelated to camping, tunneling, or slugging. So it won't fix the ragequitting problem.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995100#Comment_3995100
Uh no, camping and tunneling does not create tension it creates apathy and frustration. That's why we had a go next epidemic and lets be real, why we still have a go next epidemic except people just run into the killer now when they want to go next.
We have a go next epidemic because this game refuses to buff the Go Next system to where it should be.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995106#Comment_3995106
We are going down the competitor's path by…addressing the most common complaint over the last five years?
DBD is going down the same path as VHS, by making the killer role no longer feel like a killer role.
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The comparison is that if too much of tunneling is removed from DBD, it doesn't really have a major component of horror anymore. Horror games are supposed to have tension… the threat that killers are dangerous throughout the entire game, and the threat that someone might be removed from the game early.
If too much of tunneling is actually removed from DBD, then survivors will go large periods of time not actually being worried about the killer. And the killer role won't actually feel like it's killing for large portions of the game.
That is what killed VHS, because the killer role didn't feel like a killer role. Most asymmetrical games like this, die when the killer population is way too low to sustain the queues.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994265#Comment_3994265
It would have been fine with 8m aura reading radius lol.
Im just saying that they fully did not make sure to compensate the players that wanted more of tier 1 and still have the good side of tier 2 and 3.
Modern dbd just got a full overhaul so if anything now new current dbd should have this playstyle avaliable.
DBD shouldn't need to compensate killers for nerfing an obnoxious perk. Many other killers got zero compensation when their perks got nerfed, and we don't need Myers to be an exception.
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I hope not. It's way too much uptime on a large AoE aura reading, for modern DBD.
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Everyone needs to remember that if there isn't enough complaints about the PTB, that it won't get changed.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
Yeah the game should boot them and replace them with a bot after a certain amount of time. Thats not fair to you.
The killer bots are terrible. I don't even think the Blight bot know how to lethal rush, and just walks around the map.
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How on earth is it "more healthy" to allow toolboxes to permanently remove a hook from the game?
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@brunohvs said:
I understand that the changes coming to ptb, are because sluggin and tunneling are boring playstyles to the receiving end, because they reduce their interation with the game, therefore i can agree with making the game more frenetic, but wouldnt that have to include immersing and gen rush?
Both reduce the interaction the killer has with the game, are just boring ways of gameplay that are simply not "chasing oriented" what is supposed to be the fun of the game. So if a killer tunnels, he gets his ass handled to him, but if a survivor immerse, he maybe gets temporary crows, and if he genrush the game just give him a trophy… Lets make it make sense
We were supposed to have better AFK crows, but survivors complained, and now the AFK crows are so useless that I've literally never seen a survivor with 3 crows since the nerfs.
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@Pwny said:
I don't quite understand how people do not get that hitting a survivor who is not at risk of getting hooked is a massive tempo loss for killer. If you are an M1 killer especially, bodyblocks are an extremely powerful tool that survivors have access to. Surely we've all seen how powerful they are when trying to run to exit gates, right? The distance a survivor can gain on the killer after the killer has to go through an entire attack recovery animation is absolutely massive in terms of how long the chase can last.
This is why some Clown mains (for instance) run forced penance, to at least get some value out of the situation.
The big problem is that post-unhooking bodyblocking is still in the game, because the survivor has the control to end it early. For example, a recently unhooked survivor can tap their medkit, and instantly be able to bodyblock the killer if they wanted to.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993283#Comment_3993283
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up getting someone tunnelled out of the game, if I'm being honest.
We were talking about aggressively using/weaponising anti-tunnel, if you're mostly interested in tunnelling that'll never affect you because the defensive uses of those perks will affect you. The entire premise of the conversation is the idea that you're trying to chase someone else, at which point getting someone tunnelled out clearly isn't a priority.
Which is why it is two good outcomes potentially. You have the potential good outcome of picking them up, and you have the guaranteed good outcome of leaving them on the ground while you pressure their teammate.
I'm so done with this conversation. They aren't equally good outcomes.
This is exactly the same thing that you do with buff/nerf conversations. You refuse to acknowledge that different things have different weights. Like, if a killer gets a huge nerf, and a minor buff, you say things like "1 buff + 1 nerf = neutral overall changes".
I'm done with this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993266#Comment_3993266
The neon sign is that they let themselves get downed. If they're at full health and/or have active OTR, they're not going to keep running at you until they're on the ground, they'll get injured/put in Deep Wounds then run away.
Granted, some players will occasionally do that, but it's a more reasonable tell that they have DS.
It's also not a misplay to leave them there. I can understand the opposing argument that picking them up is worth the risk, but we're comparing two good outcomes here - one being a free hook, the other being free slug pressure while you're already in another chase so you don't have any downtime.
That's why it isn't weaponising. You can just benefit from it more than the survivors do.
They often aren't two good outcomes. One involves progressing the killer's objective and getting a survivor one step closer to being tunneled out of the game, and one involves delaying the killer's objective and spreading hook states.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993234#Comment_3993234
I mean… sure?
If you don't mind eating a DS stun because you want to tunnel someone, that's fine, but you also can't say that survivors are capable of weaponising DS because you personally choose to eat the stun after a survivor flashes a neon sign saying "I have DS pick me up now so I can stun you" by letting you down them as you're chasing their teammate.
That's your choice to take obvious bait, not actual weaponisation.I mean honestly man I really struggle to see your conclusion here after the back and forth we've had, maybe you could summarise it?
The killer literally does not get a neon sign saying someone has DS. Just because someone aggressively bodyblocks, does not mean they have DS. For example, someone might aggressively bodyblock because they are at full health, and have an active OTR, but no DS.
And it's such a giant misplay to avoid picking someone up if they actually don't have DS, that it's better to risk the odds and pick survivors up, especially because the pick rate of DS is so low.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993230#Comment_3993230
…No.
I'm saying that if a survivor is running in front of you and trying to bodyblock and also lets you down them doing this, you should probably just leave them on the ground after downing them. It's obviously throwing to let the killer do that without DS, and you get more value out of continuing the chase you were already in anyway.
This conversation started because of weaponising anti-tunnel as an idea, remember. We're talking about survivors who try to weaponise DS via bodyblocking and we are only talking about that, because there's context to that situation that doesn't apply elsewhere.
Leaving the survivor on the ground, is actively giving up an opportunity to tunnel a survivor out of the game, and is actively choosing to spread hooks instead.
There is a major difference between the killer travelling across the map to chase a recently unhooked survivor, and the killer leaving a recently unhooked survivor on the ground when that survivor is literally next to the killer.
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You keep saying the correct play for killers is to leave a survivor slugged on the ground, if they might have DS. You're basically saying that killers should completely stop tunneling a survivor, and spread hook instead, because that survivor MIGHT have an active DS.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993036#Comment_3993036
If you're using the perk defensively, the killer went out of their way to chase you.
If you're using the perk offensively, you're going out of your way to chase the killer.
One of those wastes the killer's time. One of those wastes the survivor's time.
It's the whole thing I'm saying that matters here, man. It's not just the killer leaving the survivor on the ground, it's the killer leaving the survivor on the ground after the survivor went out of their way to follow the killer and the killer's already chasing someone else as well.
Those three variables make up the scenario people usually talk about, and if you change one of those three variables, the outcome also changes.
Tunneling a survivor out of the game is absolutely worth the risk of eating a DS, especially when most survivors don't equip the perk.
You're basically saying a killer should avoid tunneling a survivor, and spread hooks instead, because they might eat a stun for a few seconds. How on earth does that make sense? Tunneling a survivor is absolutely worth a potential DS stun.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993010#Comment_3993010
I mean, I would assume most people running DS want to use it defensively, or they're otherwise just hoping to bait the killer into a stun and accept the risk it might not work.
Not everyone running it thinks that running at the killer and getting slugged is a good use of their time, somewhat obviously. That's not even the intended use of the perk, and people hate tunnelling- it's not at all unreasonable to think they want to use it as anti-tunnel.
But according to you, using the perk defensively would also be a huge gamble, because according to you, if the killer left the survivor on the ground, then the killer won that exchange. So why aren't there a lot of survivors complaining about this on the forums? Where are all the survivors complaining that their DS perk is "useless" if the killer leaves them on the ground?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993002#Comment_3993002
Yes, I agree.
That's why I'm trying to explain that the third scenario involves the survivors not delaying the killer more than they're delaying themselves. They give their teammate a protection hit, but they're left on the ground for however long. It doesn't work out because what THEY'RE giving up is worse than what they're taking from the killer.
The second scenario, which both delays the killer and DOESN'T delay them by as much, is to their benefit. The third scenario is not, because the killer is benefiting from the objective delay more than the survivors are.
Do you honestly think DS would be as popular as it is now, if "leave the survivor on the ground" really was a valid counterplay that was in the killer's favor?
How exactly does that work? All the people using DS believe they are taking a huge gamble, because if the killer just leaves them on the ground, the killer won that exchange? And the only reason why DS is useful is because most killers "don't understand" that they should always slug a survivor if they've recently been unhooked?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992929#Comment_3992929
Sure I can.
Though, for the record, I wouldn't ever argue that survivors can't weaponise anti tunnel in general. A few of the tools they have available can be weaponised, Endurance in particular. It's DS that can't be weaponised because the survivors get minimal returns for considerable downsides if the killer just leaves the person trying to do so on the ground.
Imagine a regular chase after an unhook. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, survivor B goes and resets + is back on gens pretty quickly. Three survivors on gens after a brief delay.
Imagine a chase where a survivor uses Endurance to bodyblock. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, but survivor B comes and takes a hit with their Endurance before running away. Again, a brief delay, slightly longer this time, but three survivors on gens.
Now imagine a chase where a survivor either doesn't have Endurance to bodyblock with or keeps chasing the killer to get in position for another bodyblock while in Deep Wounds. Survivor A comes to rescue survivor B, killer chases survivor A, survivor B keeps following the killer until they have to hit them, killer continues to chase survivor A. There are two survivors on generators, and only remains two on generators if survivor B has some way of picking themselves up- otherwise it's one survivor on generators.
The context matters. If a survivor is following the killer's chase to try and get in the way and ends up on the ground, they've wasted time. If they can bodyblock quickly without doing that, it works out in their favour. There's some hazy middle ground for following the killer but taking a hit and running away again, but those are the extreme ends.
I refuse to imagine any scenario you give, that revolves around "more survivors repairing = better for survivors". That completely disregards the fact that delaying the killer from hooking a survivor is sometimes more important than having more survivors repairing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992903#Comment_3992903
Both survivors get to run away after a successful save. One may be in chase, but the other gets to go off and do generators.
If a survivor lets themselves get downed while bodyblocking, neither get away. One's on the ground, and the other is still in chase. It's a net negative, and it's why bodyblocking is more commonly done just to end up injured or in Deep Wound so it actually works out in the survivor's favour.
But you can't argue that, and still argue that the number of survivors on generators is the most important thing survivors can do.
This whole "survivors can't weaponize anti-tunnel" argument revolves around the belief that the number of survivors repairing is the most important thing. It's the only way the "DS can't be weaponized because it's less survivors repairing generators" argument can work.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992792#Comment_3992792
Incorrect. It's literally 1. How is two survivors doing bumkiss the killer losing out? 2. What is forcing the killer to pick up an obvious bait (or to be more generous a potential DS)?
As we see it, survivors "trying to weaponize" anti-tunnel has the following for the killer: Two survivors not on gens, one likely the dirt requiring either another survivor, specific perks that usually work once, or being on the dirt for a gen's worth of time (potentially with the last one). Depending on how and where the chases go, you could have the following scenarios: 2 down ready to be hooked (1 potentially having DS), 2 down with you scaring another survivor off a gen and the 4 trying to pick up the first slug, 1 survivor down with the first up being healed and the 4th had gotten off the gen because the chase got close, etc. There's a myriad of scenarios. Yes some will leave the killer worse off, but some (and in our opinion most) leave the killer better off.
The thing is, if your delaying the other teams efficiency, you as killer have more time to progress your objective. Meaning you have more time to do whatever you need to. You should see that as when survivors delay the killer, they get more time on gens, this aspect of the game goes both ways. As a side note, if they don't "weaponize anti-tunnel, then it's more likely 3 survivors are on gens... which likely makes gens go more vroom like we often see people whine about.
The two survivors are delaying the killer from progressing hooks, which means delaying the killer from progressing their objective.
By your logic, pallet saves, flashlight saves, flashbang saves, and hook sabotages are ALWAYS a terrible strategy for survivors, because it requires a 2nd survivor that could be repairing generators instead.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992527#Comment_3992527
Actually it was how survivors could actually weaponize anti-tunnel perks such as DS without the killer's input and a scenario with two questions. You:
The killer is usually at a net loss, if they hit a survivor multiple times, then leave them slugged on the ground. It also ignores the fact that it's still an overall better action to pick up the survivor and risk the DS.
At least it is at my skill level, and considering my escape rate, I'm figuring I have to be at high MMR.
Us:
If you could humor us with a common scenario: The unhook happens nearby and the killer sees two survivors healing under hook. Killer goes for the unhooker to be "nice" and the injured tries blocking. Killer hits injured and continues to chase the unhooker, but the dummy keeps trying to get in their way. Hit two, their down.
First what is stopping the killer from continuing to chase the unhooker? The killer had effectively kept two (2, dos, duo) of 4 off of gens and now has one effectively off gens again until they get up which requires another survivor, perks for usually 1 time use, or to be effectively neutralized for 90 cumulative seconds if the changes go through. How is the killer losing out here?
Second what is forcing the killer to pick up the slug? As killer they chose what they do. DS can't force them to get picked up. A supposed high MMR killer would know when the survivor wants to use DS and chooses when it's more beneficial to eat it or not. It's a choice, not a force.
Which, if we're being nit picky you haven't actually answered.
You're really asking if aggressively bodyblocking with an anti-tunnel mechanic is a powerful survivor strategy, because the killer can choose to continue chasing the unhooker.
You're really asking if weaponizing DS is a powerful survivor strategy, because the killer can choose to not pick up the survivor.
And in both cases, I'm saying, "YES", it is a powerful survivor strategy, because the survivor team can still be at a net gain, even if they do your "counterplay", which isn't really counterplay. The number of survivors that are NOT repairing isn't as important as the number of survivors that ARE repairing. In both your scenarios, there are up to 2 survivors repairing generators, while the killer is being delayed from progressing their objective.
As in, the number of survivors not repairing generators is flawed logic. What we should be caring about is if the survivor team or killer team is progressing their objective faster. And yes, this can be complicated if alternate kill scenarios are involved, like devour hope or a Myers tombstone addon, but most games aren't revolving around alternate kill scenarios.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992284#Comment_3992284
well now we got a new question of why your posting escape rate when we're talking about what would be efficient for the killer.
Because what we really care about, is whether or not weaponizing anti-tunnel mechanics is a powerful strategy for survivors.
What we really care about, is whether or not it's a powerful strategy for survivors to aggressively bodyblock if they have active anti-tunnel mechanics like DS.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991757#Comment_3991757
Probably at 99% then. As survivor we've been hit with other injured nearby because they ran with us and neither of us could split.
There are flaws in some of the updates yes but that's what testing is for. Also granted the devs don't have a good track record with it but we'll see what happens. Besides it's better to not have any of that as a whole than throwing it in and leaving it.
........ maybe because people aren't doing the usual but to GET the crows now? As far as we can tell it's only mildly more picky than before that update. We haven't seen any during the update except in a kuf...whom said survivor WAS actually trying to just hide. You not seeing crowsis not indictive of much...especially if your claiming "high MMR" and wouldn't have ppl that would be AFK or doing things that trigger it. If you really wanna try for double standards you need a better target.….
My official stats have a 68% escape rate, but the official stats are still inflated because BHVR never fixed all the bugs.
My actual stats have a 51% escape rate (34 escapes with 66 games = 51%). This is all solo q too.
If you want to tell me this isn't good enough for high MMR, then I would really be interested in what escape rates you think I would need for the minimum cutoff.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991486#Comment_3991486
How is the killer at a net loss from one hit, when the survivor using DS has to not help the team at all until they can make the bodyblock, and then gets slugged? That's a useless survivor that isn't touching a gen, and it can stretch to a full minute.
So, according to you, survivors would be better off if intentional bodyblocking deactivated anti-tunnel perks, because survivors are making terrible mistakes when they try to weaponize anti-tunnel perks? And therefore, survivors would be better off if BHVR prevented them from trying to weaponize the anti-tunnel perks?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991644#Comment_3991644
And currently, it's much better to eat a DS and continue chasing someone, than it is to waste time trying to find a new target
But in that scenario the killer has a targets location…like "in their vision" location with the unhooker. The killer is not hunting down a new target, their just continuing to chase that one.
Personally we'd be ok with that if there was a guaranteed way for the code to tell intention. Ain't no code we know of that can differentiate between malicious and just plain dumb.
The code wouldn't need to be 100% perfect.
Just look at all the changes in this upcoming patch. BHVR obviously didn't care about making sure the killer never got unfairly punished.
It's absolutely ridiculous that the AFK crows were nerfed so badly that I've literally never seen a survivor with 3 crows since the nerfs…… but people are expecting these upcoming changes to be powerful and impactful. Why the double standard?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991486#Comment_3991486
If you could humor us with a common scenario: The unhook happens nearby and the killer sees two survivors healing under hook. Killer goes for the unhooker to be "nice" and the injured tries blocking. Killer hits injured and continues to chase the unhooker, but the dummy keeps trying to get in their way. Hit two, their down.
First what is stopping the killer from continuing to chase the unhooker? The killer had effectively kept two (2, dos, duo) of 4 off of gens and now has one effectively off gens again until they get up which requires another survivor, perks for usually 1 time use, or to be effectively neutralized for 90 cumulative seconds if the changes go through. How is the killer losing out here?
Second what is forcing the killer to pick up the slug? As killer they chose what they do. DS can't force them to get picked up. A supposed high MMR killer would know when the survivor wants to use DS and chooses when it's more beneficial to eat it or not. It's a choice, not a force.
It's almost always beneficial to pick up the survivor and risk the DS, considering the pick rate of DS isn't high enough to respect it. And currently, it's much better to eat a DS and continue chasing someone, than it is to waste time trying to find a new target.
And if you don't actually think anti-tunneling perks can we weaponized, then it should be completely fine if BHVR deactivated them if the survivor purposely bodyblocked the killer.