Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@Orionbash said:
6 matches so far today.
5 of 6 were Wesker + Legion
The last one was Wesker + Hillbilly.
Some variety would be nice, but I guess when you throw in the most overtuned killer in the game its all anyone wants to play. Can we not have killers on rotation or something so that its not the same killer or even killer combination every single time? Theres enough killers in 2v8 now that you can choose 5 and have them rotate every time 2v8 comes back.
Seeing Wesker in every match is what occured last time and it was kinda boring then too and why my friends and I only played for one day.
A variety of killers that are decent in 2v8 would be nice.
It was a waste of time placing killers like Deathslinger and Nemesis in 2v8. If BHVR couldn't figure out how to easily balance them properly for 2v8, they should have picked other killers instead.
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Are survivors stuck in long queue times because they are getting matched with killers that are currently in a game?
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Wesker stopped being good when his entire character identity got nerfed.
Wesker's character identity was that his infection mechanic was very powerful, and survivors would eventually run out of syringes, and be stuck at 8% hindered for the rest of the game.
But his infection mechanic got double nerfed, and now he's stuck with a below average kill rate. But his character is popular enough that people still play him. It's pretty much like Springtrap, where it's the jackpot of game balance, where the killer is weaker than average, but still has a high pick rate.
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@mrnuke420 said:
why is it that every time the survivors get new perks or items they get nerfed almost immediately like the healing circle perk we used to be able to heal ourselves and now it’s just a waste of a perk and also the new smoke bombs now they got nerfed and we can only use two after that it’s done. How about the game developers actually make things even and not just killer sided. The killers have an infinite amount of weapons they can pull and use and abilities that are unlimited just think about it the game is just slowly dying due to the ridiculous amount of nerfs they do to the survivors which is why the developers implemented bots to join these killers constantly get things and never get an actual nerf instead they buff them eventually it’s gonna be a single player game with only bots and I’m saying this as a killer main player but I see how bad the developers just don’t make anything good for the survival side of it.
Circle of Healing was released on October 19, 2021.
The self-heal was removed on April 18, 2023.
It was literally a YEAR AND A HALF before the self-heal was removed from Circle of Healing.
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We still have absolutely no idea what BHVR wants the fog vials to do.
We’ve shown screenshots where the fog was super easy to see through. We’ve shown screenshots where the fog was impossible to see through. But BHVR refuses to tell us which screenshots are intended, and which are bugged.
As in, we’ve literally got zero feedback on whether or not the “I can easily see through the fog” screenshots are bugged or intended.
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985245#Comment_3985245
I had a Mikaela who decided they were going to play for Hatch. While I was hooked I could see they were just running in circles in the corner of the map. The entire 140 seconds or so while I was on hook I don't think they got any crows. The AFK is definitely flawed.
She doesn’t even need to run. She could just crouch walk, back and forth, in a small line. And it would take 510 seconds (8.5 minutes) to get 1 crow.
And opening a chest completely resets AFK points, so a survivor could crouch walk for 8 minutes, open 1 chest, then crouch walk for another 8 minutes….. and effectively be hiding for 16 minutes with 0 crows.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985222#Comment_3985222
what exactly do you want from an Anti-Camp mechanic?
I want the devs to be consistent with whether or not a player standing still is considered participating or not.
Because, for survivors, we got "anti hiding" which hard punishes you for doing so, and crows were launched so broken that you couldn't even sneak. Both of these systems, even right now, evaluate if they consider the survivor to be "playing the game" and, if not, punish them with either a waiting period, or giving away their position in the match.
For killers, standing around at a hook, for up to 70 seconds at a time, is somehow different. This isn't gameplay either, and, honestly, the killer determines the gameplay. But this is somehow defended ferociously by the community, and "ok".
What you need, is a system that says "go chase survivors". Go play the game. Go create the gameplay. Don't just stand there and admire the furniture.
And you can't do that with incentives, they tried. Gen kick meta brought about more camping and tunneling because killers had more time to waste doing nothing. Slowing down gens did the same thing, only led to an increase. There is nothing within the match that can incentivized people to stop standing around doing nothing at a hook and calling it "gameplay".
The only incentive that might help is extrinsic, or outside the match. Basically, make the old BBQ BP bonus base kit for hooking multiple survivors, which doesn't impact the match or balance, but rewards the killer outside the game.
So, personally, I expect "anti camp" to mean "the killer leaves the hook and goes to pressure the map", and is punished somehow if they don't do that. And AFC does not, in any way, make this happen.
The AFK Crows got massively nerfed, and I’ve literally never seen a survivor with 3 crows, since the nerfs happened.
And I’m still dealing with survivors excessively hiding. They’re just bypassing the AFK Crows, since they are so weak.
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@TheDavidKingMain said:
Why is it that the devs only have the “be cautious and wait” mentality when it comes to killers? Meanwhile the milisecond killer mains start crying about fog vials the devs have it gutted within a week
Nerf Ghoul, yesterday. This is ridiculous.
Ghoul literally had 25 changes, before the grace period started. And the changes started on launch day.
Why do people keep pretending the 25 changes didn't happen? Ghoul was nerfed immediately. Springtrap was nerfed immediately too. A lot of killer stuff gets nerfed before the grace period starts.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984894#Comment_3984894
Incorrect. Something that doesn't use a charge system can not by definition have charges - limited, or unlimited.
Actually, the patch notes said the fog vials were on the charge system, when they had infinite charges.
Anyways, I stopped caring about this conversation. There isn't any risk that a lot of people are going to agree with you, and I really don't care if you agree with me.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984857#Comment_3984857
Who was I responding to in my post? Those people you're referencing who I presume totally exist or someone who was using 'unlimited charges' in a way that clearly denotes it as a bad thing?
The item itself literally has unlimited charges. The fact that trials have a maximum time limit, doesn't change the fact that the item itself has unlimited charges.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984837#Comment_3984837
Why? The language being used is incorrect, clearly designed to make something sound big and scary, and doesn't reflect an item's actual strength or even mechanics. If my statements are going to be pedantically picked apart then I'm afraid that's going to go for everyone. Remember back when YOU were the one complaining about exact language being used?
The language isn't clearly designed to make something sound big and scary. There have been multiple people in these forums, arguing that fog vials should have unlimited charges. Do you honestly think they are purposely using language that makes "something sound big and scary", when they actually want the infinite charges to happen? That doesn't make sense.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984821#Comment_3984821
Why - did I make an incorrect statement in the post you were responding to? You are ignoring the fact that the words 'unlimited charges' are being used as if to suggest there are no limits to the item at all when in fact there is indeed a cooldown which very much imposes restrictions on the number of times it can be activated in a trial.
If you want to get technical about it, the item had no charges at all - much less unlimited. It was limited by a cooldown but it had no more charges than Unknown's UVX bouncy ball.
So if you want me to type a short phrase describing the old fog vials then this is it:
"An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown."
Great!
Whenever you see someone write "unlimited charges" on these forums, pretend they are saying "An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown". Because that is what they mean. It's what they are referring to.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984807#Comment_3984807
Then 'Unlimited Charges' is a meaningless phrase that has zero bearing on the power of an item. Do you suppose so many people would be complaining about 'unlimited charges' if the thing had a half hour cooldown but still never showed a number on the user interface?
Rewrite the below definition, with as few words as possible:
“An unspecified number of charges, with a relatively short cooldown, where relatively short is currently defined as less than 90 seconds”
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984756#Comment_3984756
It never really had infinite charges - the cooldown placed a limit on how much you could use it in a trial.
The item itself has unlimited charges, because it does not list a finite number of charges on the item.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984546#Comment_3984546
The same can be said for something like friends to the end, which makes the survivor exposed and gives the killer their exact location. Too much going on at one time, but I bet you don’t want any changes to that.
That perk only does that effect to the obsession, if a non-obsession survivor is hooked. And if that is going to happen, the obsession can just easily dodge the aura reading with a locker, and wait for half of the exposed timer to end before leaving the locker.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984471#Comment_3984471
Fog vials are counterplay to aura reading. So you’re saying that you want counterplay to counterplay? Basically you’re saying you want the advantage to always be one-sided and if the outcome isn’t in the favor of the side that you want it to be then it’s not good.
Considering the aura reading that exists in this game on the killer side. Where you get aura reading, simply for existing on the map, or opening a locker, I would say that you don’t need MORE advantages.
Killer: gets aura reads for existing/ opening a locker as many times as they want in a matchSurvivor: “open 3 chests, cleanse 2 totems, repair a generator and heal another survivor for a full health state and we’ll let you activate a perk that you can use once per match … oh and the killer gets to see your aura when you do lol”
But … “fog vials have no counter play because they take away my 87 advantages for 10 seconds ohhh no 😱”
- Fog vials are supposed to be the counterplay to easily seeing the survivor. The primary focus is supposed to be the visual fog effect. The counterplay to fog vials should be survivor noises and aura reading.
- If the primary focus of fog vials is supposed to be the AoE "quiet mode", then the visual fog effect should be very weak.
- Fog vials should never have a strong visual fog effect AND be an AoE quiet mode. That is too many things happening at the same time.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984129#Comment_3984129
That is more of an issue on the side of Pig and Sadako, ESPECIALLY Sadako.
Her condemned is EXTREMELY lenient.
Tombstone Piece is BS, yes. But Judith's Tombstone requires the collective IQ to be lukewarm and a fair amount of commitment.
If we are strictly talking counterplay, making the "open palm, closed palm" a Tombstone tell and maybe a bit more could be the way to go.
Why defend something, if you honestly think it's only good against "bad survivors"? That would mean the addon is only useful as a bullying tool when the survivors are much weaker than the killer.
And a hand visual doesn't count as counterplay. Proper counterplay would mean the survivor has some way to reset the alternate kill condition, like completing a Sadako tape, or taking off a Pig trap.
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@Nocturnum said:
While fog vials were pretty bad on some maps (where it looked like a damn blizzard), you made them essentially useless now. Especially the iri addon.
Having played on both sides, giving them charges was fine (only 2 though?). No need to lower the opacity as much as this, maybe dial it back a little? I'd hate to see these go the way of chalk pouches/broken keys etc :(
The fog vials are STILL really obnoxious on some maps. There is zero counterplay for the killer, when an item looks like this, has 2.7 times the area of fog crystals, and deletes scratchmarks, and deletes survivor noises, and deletes auras.
BHVR needs to fix the opacity bugs, so people can actually figure out what 33% opacity is supposed to look like. Because some of the screenshots where the fog was barely noticeable might be bugged too.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984116#Comment_3984116
For Tombstone Piece I completely agree, it needs to be reworked. However, Judith's Tombstone has fine counterplay.
Judith's Tombstone Myers takes some time to charge up so players paying attention can get a feeling for whether he has it or not based on how long it takes for Myers to tier up. Also he would be able to instadown in T3 anyways, so forcing grabs or getting in lockers isn't even that much different than if he wasn't running Tombstone.
Judith's Tombstone just requires survivors to be more aware of their surroundings and to make sure they don't end up in a bad situation. If a player can't find a locker or doesn't know to stay on a gen to force him to waste his time or hook, thats a problem with the player.
Judith's Tombstone also needs to be reworked. Sadako and Pig's alternate kills had counterplay, but they still got super nerfed.
The tombstone addons are outdated, and should never exist in modern DBD. Alternate kills need way more counterplay, like Sadako and Pig currently have.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983450#Comment_3983450
I panic every time BHVR decides to go back and touch up old killers, especially killers that are very unique in the game like Myers. I really hope they can keep his identity. I love how much his add-ons affect how he is played and counted.
I worry about Tombstone the most. I know a lot of players complain about Tombstone but there are also many who enjoy playing against it. It makes the game a lot more scary/tense and creates new ways to interact with the game. Suddenly survivors need to focus on positioning and being near lockers or gens near chase in order to force grabs.
I personally do not think Judith's Tombstone add-on is broken or needs changes, however I would not be bothered if BHVR removed or heavily reworked Tombstone Piece.
As long as Myers has some form of Tombstone I will be more or less satisfied.
Both the tombstone addons need to be completely reworked.
It's absolutely ridiculous that Pig and Sadako had their alternate kill conditions massively massively nerfed, but Myers can still force an instant kill with far less effort, and far less counterplay.
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@Squippit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983120#Comment_3983120
For me, the infinite charges was the main selling point. I preferred them at 40% opacity vs the current 33%, but if you absolutely must keep them at 33%, you NEED to remove the downsides from the iri addon.
If you keep them as an item with charges, they need to go back to their original strength, iri addon included.
The way I see it, those are your only 2 options if you want players to still use them in some capacity
Edit: Actually, reading through this thread, I'm seeing people basically split into these exact two camps. I propose the blood web contain 2 fog vials then. One with infinite charges and 33% opacity, and one with 2 charges with 45% opacity and smaller radius/shorter duration. Change iri addon to add more charges. Does that not give everyone want they want(?)
The problem is we still have absolutely no idea what 33% opacity is supposed to look like. Both the above screenshots were taken with a 33% opacity fog vial. Which one of these screenshots is what 33% opacity is supposed to look like?
It's impossible for people to accurately state what opacity number is fair, when the fog vials are this buggy.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
Current ones are ok with 4-5 charges imo, but like many people said it's just bloodweb junk at this point, maybe adding them at all was a mistake
This is why I don't like the idea of limited charges.
I don't think I've ever seen a survivor use a fog vial more than 5 times in the same game, so asking for 5 charges isn't really a meaningful nerf, because most survivors wouldn't run out of charges.
I don't think survivors are ever going to like the concept of limited charges, because the number would have to be something really low like 2, in order for it to be a meaningful nerf, and 2 feels bad.
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Does this mean fixing issues that are frustrating to killers?
Or does this mean fixing issues that are frustrating to survivors?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983119#Comment_3983119
Maybe it would be easier for you to share exactly what you would find acceptable for the vials to do? To date you've complained about the opacity, the unlimited use, aura blocking, and scratch marks.
NEW SURVIVOR ITEM: FOG VIAL
Press the Use Item button to release a cloud of fog, decreasing visibility and suppressing scratch marks. Recharges over time.Each Fog Vial shares the following parameters:
Has 1 charge, that recharges over time.
Has 40% opacity.
Has an 6-meter radius.
Suppresses scratch marks.FOG VIAL ITEM VARIANTS
APPRENTICE'S FOG VIAL (COMMON):
Reaches its maximum size after 2 seconds.
Lasts 8 seconds.
Recharges 70 seconds after use.ARTISAN'S FOG VIAL (UNCOMMON):
Reaches its maximum size after 1.5 seconds.
Lasts 10 seconds.
Recharges 65 seconds after use.VIGO'S FOG VIAL (RARE):
Reaches its maximum size after 1.2 seconds.
Lasts 12 seconds.
Recharges 60 seconds after use.FOG VIAL ADD-ONS
Volcanic Stone (Common):
Decreases recharge time by 5 seconds.Reactive Compound (Uncommon):
Decreases fog cloud expansion time by 1 second.Oily Sap (Rare):
Increases fog cloud lifetime by 2 seconds.Mushroom Formula (Very Rare):
If you use a fog vial while crouched, it throws the fog vial 10 meters in front of you. (Like a Clown bottle)
Note: The fog vial magically reappears in your hand afterwardsPotent Extract (Visceral):
Clouds of fog also suppresses survivor auras.Discussion: The two most important things for survivors, is the infinite charges and the opacity. So the best solution is to keep both those things intact, and make the rest of the effects weaker, to justify having infinite charges.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983103#Comment_3983103
I have no doubt they'll have all of that sorted out for you soon
We’ve had so many screenshots of survivors only caring about the visual fog effect, that I honestly don’t know why it’s so important to BHVR that the fog vials continue to block survivor noises and auras.
At the very least, they shouldn’t affect survivor noises at all. It’s extra ridiculous that the fog blocks survivor noises, but doesn’t block killer noises.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982643#Comment_3982643
The answer is obvious—the punishments to Survivor actually hit you with a DC penalty and DCs have been reworked to be incredibly punishing. Booting players from the queue entirely for something they didn't do will always take priority over anything that happens during the trial.
If the crows act the same way they used to with no penalty (they might, I haven't gotten any yet to confirm), I'd say it's not all that different. Neither player is intentionally trying to trigger the system. It's a flaw with the game. But the key issue here again boils down to consistency. If a scenario is largely the same for both players, why is it only acceptable if it happens to one side and not the other?
The entire point I’m trying to make, is if it’s super important to make sure the AFK crows never ever unfairly punish survivors, then it should also be super important that the anti-slugging change never ever punishes killers that were forced to slug.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey folks. I totally hear your concerns here, but also want to give some background. Balancing is an iterative process that takes time to find a sweet spot, and this is very much another step in that process. To quote one of my favourite fantasy series', "journey before destination".
We 100% want to hear your feedback once you get a chance to play a few Trials with this new change, so please let us know how it's feeling. We're here to grab that feedback and make sure the team is made aware.
It’s disappointing that the fog vials still block survivor noises and auras, even though most survivors really only care about the visual fog effect. Fog vials are still “quiet mode” that’s 4 times the area of fog crystals.
And medkits and toolboxes desperately need to be rebalanced, so they are around the same level as keys, maps, and fog vials. It’s clear that the new reworks of keys and maps are never going to be popular, as long as syringes and styptics exist as they are. And survivors are just going to continuing threatening to use toolboxes and medkits, unless those items are finally rebalanced (like maps and keys were).
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982684#Comment_3982684
"Forced" is such a strange word to use. No one is forcing you. Unlike the person on the ground, you still have agency. You can at least act.
But you're also missing the fact that it's unfair for the person who was slugged. The hook breakdown wouldn't have been that person's fault if they were the rescuer. Neither would a flashlight save or a sabo be their fault. It's the person who preformed the action's doing. That's who you should be pursuing. I cannot tell you how many times I've been targeted by a frustrated killer because someone else decided to save me in a soloq match. I didn't ask them to, they just did it. Many people in soloq will do things like flashlight saves and dangerous unhooks just for points or lols. And I personally believe killers are entitled to their [fairly acquired] hookings. And I shouldn't have to lay on the ground for mutiple minutes or get tunneled out because someone else did something.
You're also arguing against a system that hasn't been implemented and that we don't even know anything about yet. Whatever the new system is, it's obviously not going to kick in if one person alone is on the ground for like five seconds. There are going to be parameters.
If a survivor is on the ground, and the killer literally cannot hook that survivor, then the killer is being forced to slug that survivor.
I literally don't care about your giant anecdote. It doesn't change the fact that killers can be forced to slug survivors.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982327#Comment_3982327
Fog vials never should have been its own item with addons. It should have been like flashbangs, where it's attached to a perk, and therefore doesn't have any addons.
Honestly, beside the (now useless) iri add-on, I don't think any of them are an issue.
The main issue is how inconsistent they are (which is why the feedback is so varied, each map makes them more or less see-though), and that they do everything at base.
It's combination of a few things:
- The fog is super thick on certain maps, or on certain parts of other maps
- The fog breaks some of the killer powers
- The fog is literally up to 4 times the size of fog crystals, AND it blocks scratchmarks, AND it blocks auras, AND it blocks survivor noises. That by itself is a strong item, even if it didn't have a visual fog effect at all, because it's literally a massive AoE that breaks multiple non-visual tracking methods. Quiet mode was by far the most popular survivor invitation power during the anniversary event, even though it had zero fog effects… and fog vials are extremely similar to being an AoE quiet mode.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982657#Comment_3982657
This is such a specific example. That's one single perk that might put you in a spot occasionally. Not to mention that it's only likely to happen if you're camping the previously hooked survivor. You can also get them to the next hook if you have Iron Grasp, so if this problem is so big for you, equip it. I regularly equip Lightborn, Iron Grasp, and Awakened Awareness because I just want to get the person to a hook, but everyone wants to put on regression and aura perks that do their work for them, so the trade off is you'll lose some hookings.
And Breakdown is doing what it's designed to do. So are flashlights and toolbox sabatoges. It literally tells you in the loading screen to use those for saves. There's nothing anywhere in this game's instructional wording that says "if hooking is not viable just dump them on the ground." Just accept that you got outplayed. What's the worse that happens? They break free and you down them again 20 seconds later?
Fog vials were mid and moved to low, especially when compared to something like a void crystal, which was a totally infuriating item for me as killer and I'd never advocate for something that strong in regular gameplay. But it's the same exact thing. People complained about crows so they were nerfed. People were annoyed by fog vials so they were nerfed. Being for one and against the other is hella biased.
- It's fine for survivors to force the killer to slug. I never said otherwise.
- It's not fine for the killer to be punished by an anti-slugging mechanic, when they were forced to slug.
As in, it's fine for Breakdown to force the killer to slug. But it's not ok for survivors to get something like a basekit Unbreakable, that works when the killer was forced to slug. Anti-slugging should happen when the killer is purposely trying to excessively slug. Otherwise, survivors are just going to weaponize the anti-slugging mechanic, just like they did on the PTB that had basekit Unbreakable.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982643#Comment_3982643
Which anti-slugging mechanic are you referring to?
How does someone force you to slug?
Also, explain to me why it was extremely and immediately important to nerf an item that the majoirty of killer-players weren't even being thwarted by and mostly just found annoying.
If there is only one hook within range, and it is broken by the Breakdown perk, then the killer is forced to slug any survivor that gets knocked to the ground in that area. Most of the anti-slugging suggestions on these forums, would punish the killer even if the killer was forced to slug the survivors.
Fog vials are literally up to 4 times the area of fog crystals, and yet, survivors want fog vials to be really difficult to see out of…. even though they are literally up to 4 times the area of fog crystals? How is that fair? Why on earth are the fog vials this big?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982617#Comment_3982617
That's one example specific to me. I had a lot of people showing up to gens with crows at this time--many very early in the game--and I had no reason to believe they were hiding. Running Empathy let's me keep an eye on that sort of thing, so if you're injured and you're hiding, I will know.
I had a killer match where I was holding down a 3gen and the remaining three players weren't hiding, they just couldn't preform any meaningful action long enough to not get crows. They were trying to get to the gens instead of doing usless activities like opening chests. They did not deserve those crows.
And I've had recent matches where people get crows. It takes longer, but eventually I hear the cawing and find them. It does it's job. I have no tolerance for cowards regardless of which role I play but I don't want a system that punishes for no reason.
But if you're advocating for this crow system because lots of time and effort were put into designing it, its a little hypocrital to be one of the loudest anti-fog vial posters, which obviously also resulted in a nerf and pretty much no one wants to use them anymore. And those being a new item and not just a redesign of an old system probably took much more time.
Explain to me, why it's important for the AFK crows to never ever ever unfairly punish survivors, but it's perfectly fine for an anti-slugging mechanic to punish killers when they were forced to slug by the survivors.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982523#Comment_3982523
There was nothing fair about the crows. I got them during this period and I never get crows. At no point was I hiding. In those cases, I was looking for hex totems and sometimes had to change my trajectory to avoid the killer, which the game read as inactivity, despite me marathoning around the map and leaving scratch marks everywhere. The only way to avoid this would have been to cleanse the dull totems I found, just to reset the timer. Other people were avoiding the crows by repairing a gen for a few seconds then going back to their hidey holes. A system that rewarded you for useless tasks while punishing you for actually trying to do something was deeply flawed.
You also seem to think you're automatically entitled to every down you get. If that were the case, sabotage and flashlights wouldn't be in the game. Nothing is supposed to be "safe".
If hex totems are a problem point for the AFK crow system, then the solution should be having additional (or modified) rules specifically when an active hex totem is in the game.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982501#Comment_3982501
I can confirm that we continue to keep an eye on discussion around this feature and pass it along to the team involved. If you don't mind me asking, what actions are you seeing Survivors take that easily bypass the AFK crows? I want to make sure this is shared with them if it happens to be something that's not already on my / their radar.
TD;LR: Survivors are just crouch walking in a small area, and using things like chests, dull totems, or killer interactions like disarming a Trapper trap, to hide for 10+ minutes.
Problem 1: AFK point gain is 25% if the survivor is moving at all, which includes crouch walking back and forth in a small area. It takes 8.5 minutes of being AFK, for a survivor to get their first crow, if they are just crouch walking in a small area.
Problem 2: Opening a chest, or cleansing/blessing a dull totem, aren't important enough to fully reset AFK points. Cleansing/blessing a hex totem, absolutely should be worth a full AFK point reset, because there is an actual need for survivors to remove hexes.
Problem 3: Some killer interactions aren't high-priority enough to be worth a full reset of AFK points. It's ok if high-priority killer interactions fully reset AFK points, like searching a Pig box, or solving a Pinhead puzzle. But disarming a Trapper trap, or looking through Springtrap's cameras, really isn't important enough to be worth a full AFK point reset. All the killer interactions should be reviewed, to determine how many AFK points each interaction should remove.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982513#Comment_3982513
Because one thing is useless we make everything else useless ? That doesn't seem very productive, at this point anything they do could potentially ruin the game they have shown this multiple times already, I already know anti tunnel PTB is gonna be a disaster
if i were them i'd buff DS nothing else, if you care about being tunneled just bring the perk
If the phase 1 changes are going to be barely noticeable, it's fair for the phase 2 changes to be barely noticeable.
BHVR spent SO MUCH TIME AND EFFORT, making sure those AFK crows felt fair for survivors, and that literally no one was "unfairly" getting AFK crows. The same energy should happen for the phase 2 changes. Killers should never ever be punished for slugging, if the survivors forced them to slug. And anti-slugging should actually involve slugging. This Conviction garbage, where the survivor can activate it even when the killer is just trying to check the area to make sure it's safe to pick up the survivor, isn't anti-slugging because the killer isn't even trying to slug at all.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
"not a removal" so does that mean it will do nothing, like anticamp ? disaster incoming
The AFK crows are absolutely useless, even those phase 1 was supposed to have Hiding Prevention.
There are still a lot of survivors ragequitting in ways that bypass the DC penalties, even though phase 1 was supposed to have Go Next Prevention.So it would be completely fair of the phase 2 changes were barely noticeable. Like the anti-tunnel change should just be a survivor losing collision for 10 seconds after being unhooked, so killers can’t bodyblock them in basements anymore. And the anti-slugging change should be an abandon button for survivors if they are slugged and only 2 survivors are alive. And the anti-camping change should just be the entire survivor team seeing the anti-facecamp meter.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982259#Comment_3982259
While I can't share specifics of the changes quite yet (we'll be sharing more soon!), I can speak broadly to those topics for ya. These upcoming changes aren't a removal - they're more akin to evolutions and improvements that build upon features players are used to.
Is BHVR planning on making additional major changes to the AFK crows this year? Hiding prevention was supposed to be one of the major highlights of phase 1, but I’ve literally never seen a survivor get 3 crows for excessive hiding, since the AFK crow nerfs.
As in, I’m still in situations where the last two survivors are excessively hiding, but they just aren’t getting 3 crows because the nerfed AFK crows can be easily bypassed as survivor.
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@Tianni said:
TBH about the fog vial. The nerf to them has made them unusable and no point in even bringing them. For once there was something strong for survivors that made the game fun. if there were balancing issues in terms of how many uses, it was fine to limited the uses, but to nerf opacity so bad, it literally has ruined the whole item and outplays that could be used with it. Meanwhile, killers are buffed to heaven, looking at you clown, and there is nothing to be done about it. There is no outrunning him, and there is rarely anything that can be done about chases with that killer, who is "perfectly balanced" according to bhvr.
I think the killswitch to streetwise was necessary as exploits aren't cool on either side, but please put the fog vials back in the way they were. It actually gave an edge to turn things back in the favor of the survivors especially dealing with killers that are buffed beyond a playable game.
It's not an outplay when there is an AoE that is literally 4 times the area of fog crystals, where the killer can't easily see through it, AND it blocks scratchmarks, AND it blocks survivor noises, AND it blocks auras. Outplay means the killer misplayed, which isn't possible if an item is literally forcing the killer into a guessing game.
Why are the fog vials still literally up to 4 times the size of fog crystals? Why are they still blocking survivor noises and auras? The fog vials are still way more annoying than the fog crystals, because it removes so many different types.
Like, seriously, does the person in charge of fog vials, know how the area of circles is calculated, and that doubling the radius of a circle, makes the area 4 times the size?
Fog vials never should have been its own item with addons. It should have been like flashbangs, where it's attached to a perk, and therefore doesn't have any addons.
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The fog vials should never be good at blocking both audio and visual.
So if the opacity is getting buffed, then the fog vials shouldn’t affect survivor audio at all.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981034#Comment_3981034
At this point you are arguing semantics while completely missing the point that has been spelled out for you. I’ll phrase this in a way you hopefully understand.
Your original comment said that ghoul had a “giant list of nerfs” going from the PTB to Live and then two hotfixes later as well. My reply was pointing out that those “changes” from the P-T-B to L-I-V-E were not actually nerfs which contradicts your point.
There is no point continuing this further since you are just not replying in good faith. Hopefully this helped clarify why you are wrong but if it is intentionally misunderstood then that’s unfortunate.Nope. That didn't help at all. That's not a valid interpretation for "literally all", because it directly contradicts "literally all".
When statements are open for interpretation, it means there are multiple ways for the statement to logically make sense. "Literally all" doesn't have any room for interpretation, because it's such an extreme statement.
It's good we agree this conversation is done.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981007#Comment_3981007
If you bothered to actually read what you said then it will make sense.
Your original comment which I replied to said this:
Ghoul literally had a giant list of nerfs going from PTB to Live
I replied by saying this:
Why are we pretending that all of the changes from PTB to Live were nerfs. Literally all of those were buffs or sidegrades…
Now if you look at the implication of this sentence it implies that from all the changes made in the PTB to LIVE they were not nerfs. The point of this was to sharpen the reasoning used since you simply included the changes made in the ptb-live and the changes in the hotfix as your example of:
a giant list of nerfs going from PTB to Live
That's not a valid implication. "Literally all" means "Literally all".
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979973#Comment_3979973
That was the aim attack locking onto a survivor despite you looking at a completely different object. Now that change allows ghoul to grab and leap towards a spot close to the survivor and get the decreased cooldown with little option for the survivor. This is opposed to the survivor getting either deepwound or the killer getting a longer cooldown.
BTW even if its more of a sidegrade than a buff, you focus on that over me simply saying that your "giant list of nerfs" from PTB to LIVE wasnt even true…
Are we really supposed to believe your statement of "Literally all of those were buffs or sidegrades" is true?
"LITERALLY ALL"??????
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@Dadeordye said:
Just had a match that 2 survs were already out, there was this Jane trying to do gens and I was not letting her and no sign of the 4th surv.
I was letting Jane on the floor from time to time to check the progress of the 4 remaining gens and they were left untouched.
This scenario extended for 5 minutes because after 2 I've decided to stress test the AFK Crows and didn't got a single notification.
The only explanation I have is that the 4th surv was interacting with a Hex totem and letting go before completing it, which still is a flaw of the system.
If survivors are moving at all (even if it's moving back and forth in a small line), it takes 8.5 minutes before they get their first crow, and 12.5 minutes before they get their 3rd crow.
And opening a chest completely resets AFK points. So a survivor can hide for over 16 minutes, if they open 1 chest, and they won't get any crows the entire time.
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@albertoplus said:
Why there are people saying that the Fog vials were "strong" while other people say that they were "useless" even before the nerfs, when in reality it was actually both?
The Fog Vials opacity were dependant of map's lighting. Saw a video comparison and on some maps the survivor were visible even when he was far from you in the fog, and on other maps the survivor would magically dissapear after the fog vial was used even if he was just 1 or 2 meters ahead from you.
I had some games, dunno if it was because of the map or the iri addon (or a combination of both) were the fog vial was a big "nah bruh i win chase now" button, because once he used it the survivor would just vanish from the existence, even if he used the vial in front of me. And honestly it wasnt fun.
I understand the frustation when the opposite does happen but saying "they were useless" is not remotely true, and neither is saying the opposite.
A middle ground needs to be found.
It's because some people literally only care about the visual fog effect, and completely ignore the fact that fog vials are literally up to 4 times the area of fog crystals, and block scratchmarks, and block auras, and block survivor noises, and are bugged to screw up some of the killer powers, and still often hide the survivor if the killer is far away enough from the survivor.
@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980402#Comment_3980402
it’s not that he doesn’t agree with the grace period. It’s that he only agrees for a grace period for killer powers. If it’s anything that remotely helps survivor he’s going to be against it and he contradicted himself about 600 times already on this forum. You are a really good dude and I just highly suggest that you stop communicating with him whatsoever because it’s never going to go anywhere. He fundamentally wants killers to have everything and survivors to have nothing.
I'm literally saying it was fine that Ghoul got 25 nerfs BEFORE the grace period started.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980526#Comment_3980526
Yes, when I explicitly asked them to give a suggestion for common ground so that it could end amicably as they had rejected my attempts, and Instead not only flat out refused to give common ground only use it as an opportunity to almost insult me by making it seem like I am in favor of something blatantly unbalanced, I realized they don’t actually want to find common ground at all. My last message to them I stated this and said I won’t be further responding to them. I do try not to assume bias of people or bad faith but the last conversation I had with this individual, in addition to this one, I think has confirmed exactly what you said.
Thanks for reaching out though, and advising me not to get lost in what appeared to be an endless back and forth. Cheers!
You made an extreme claim, that there should ALWAYS be a grace period. Therefore, I am allowed to use extreme scenarios to test your extreme claim.
Question: If a killer is released with a 90% kill rate, should they have a mandatory grace period before being nerfed? Or should survivors be forced to deal with a 90% kill rate killer, for the duration of the mandatory grace period?
Choice 1: The mandatory grace period should still apply, and the survivors should be forced to suffer with a 90% kill rate killer.
Choice 2: The mandatory grace period should not apply, and therefore the claim "there should ALWAYS be a grace period" is proven to be false.
That is why there should never ALWAYS be a grace period. It's also why you should be careful when throwing around extreme words like ALWAYS, unless you actually mean what you say.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980530#Comment_3980530
My point is that it IS already finite and switching to charges isn't going to reduce the realistic number of times it CAN be used where it has any bearing on the match. I'm not saying it shouldn't be limited, my argument is that it already is.
Would you feel better if people used the words "severely limited" instead of "limited"?
Because when people are asking for Fog Vials to be limited, they are referring to "severely limited", but they aren't being hyper specific with their language. And if you want a hyper specific definition for that, it's "significantly less than the average number of times a survivor currently uses a fog vial, when they bring a fog vial to a match"
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980177#Comment_3980177
It seems like we’re at a fundamental impasse here. You don’t believe grace periods should be a standard practice, and I do, so there’s not much value in continuing if we can’t even agree on that baseline. I’ve made a few attempts at finding a common ground but it doesn’t appear there is one here. Unless you’d like to offer one? Or perhaps we really should just end this here?
There's zero common ground. According to your logic, if a killer is released, and has a 90% kill rate, there should still be a mandatory grace period before the killer is nerfed. And therefore, the survivors should be forced to deal with a 90% kill rate killer, for the duration of the mandatory grace period.
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@TWiXT said:
I didn't mind the Thickness of the fog at all tbh, nor the "bottled" Light footed + Poised + Iron Will + Distortion effects, no, for me the biggest issues were the sheer size of the clouds that look WAY bigger than 8-10 meters, the noise volume outside of the fog, and The unlimited uses each match.
Regarding the Size, I believe there's an additional 3-4 meters outside of the center 8-10m concentrated area of effect that is clearer in opacity and simulates it thinning out, but all it really does is make them look MASSIVE. Comparing that to the Halloween event crystal smoke bombs, which had roughly the same internal radius and thicker opacity, these new ones are less contained to an area and end up seeming Larger and more overpowered/obscuring than they really are. Add in how they diffuse lighting on certain maps, and you get an awful effect with too great a range for something that's only supposed to fill an 8-10m (shack sized) space.
Then there's the Sound. I'm glad they changed it so that it happens only when you're inside the clouds inner 8-10m range now, because before this change, they were insanely loud and obnoxiously over tuned even from 32m away. Hell, I lost survivors I was chasing 20m away from a Smoke Bombs area, simply because I could no longer hear my prey's footsteps or pained grunting. It was hard enough to hear the average survivor noises in the first place, and I know that the clouds are supposed to silence survivors, but doing so by drowning out every other sound in the map from 20-30m away from the cloud? That's just overkill!
Finally the unlimited uses… yeah, I wouldn't mind it IF the survivors had to do Something to earn the refill, like doing a gen, hanging around a killers TR, being chased etc, but just having it auto refill every 60 seconds is absurd. I was expecting them to be more like flashbangs, wherein you have 1 shot and thus have to choose when, where, and how to use them for greatest effect/value, and only with the aid of perks are you able to earn another. With Fog Vials having no limits to their usage, and just a timer, there's no strategic planning, timing, or value to them at all. Even Flashlights have a sense of strategy to use them, but that's because they eventually run out of charges! These "things" were frustratingly overused upon release because they have unlimited uses, and if all 4 survivors bring them in, at a recharge rate of once per 60 seconds… it was HELLISH to be the killer!
An average game lasts about 10 minutes, that means that 1 survivor could use one 10x per match, multiply that by 4 survivors, and as a killer… you hardly ever had a moment in a match where you could see clearly or be free of that obnoxious sound design! If anything, this alone is the most braindead and irritating Feature of them ever since they were introduced.
The devs didn't Have to adjust their thickness/opacity at all! If anything, obscuring the killers vision IS the primary Reason to use them so you can make your escape, no, all they had to do was tone down the volume, decrease or remove the outer "thinning" cloud range, and give them limited uses or some method, other than sitting around for 60 seconds, to refill them. Instead they went overboard on the nerfs, and as a killer main, I can agree on that. The question is do any survivor mains agree with my assessment of what needed to be changed?
OP, I hope you understand that these "Killer Main complaints" aren't simply because I'm bitter or any of us are having trouble adapting to the new mechanic, Just that the mechanic needs some fine tuning for the sake of the games balance and health. As the Fog Vials are right now, you're right, the devs nerfed them too hard, but I don't think that's entirely due to Killer mains complaining, as most of us are more reasonable than I think you're giving us credit for. I mean, we have to be… as far as the player base is concerned, we're outnumbered 4 to 1, we can't afford to waste everyone's time whining about every little new toy the survivors get to play with, just the ones that fundamentally break what little balance this game has.
Actually, the wiki says the Fog Crystals went up to a 6 meter radius, and the Fog Vials go up to 12 meters, which means the Fog Vials are literally up to 4 times the area as Fog Crystals.
This is the important part. There are a lot of players that think Fog Vials, which are literally up to 4 times the area as Fog Crystals, should be really difficult to see out of.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980044#Comment_3980044
Alright, so you’re saying outright that you don’t think there should ever be a grace period for new content.
If that’s your position, then all the back-and-forth about Ghoul timelines doesn’t seem actually relevant to your stance as you simply disagree with the idea of giving content time on live before changes, and that would include the changes that to Ghoul. Fair enough. As there doesn’t seem to be any kind of common ground between us, perhaps it’s best to end this here?
There are two types of changes for new content:
Category 1: Changes that BHVR already knows they want to make
Category 2: Changes that BHVR wants to "wait and see" before deciding if they should happen
Category 1 changes should be made ASAP. Category 2 changes can have a grace period. It is appropriate to SOMETIMES have a grace period, but it is never appropriate to have a mandatory grace period.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980064#Comment_3980064
Yeah that's what I liked, the versatility. They were also a double-edge sword if you used them wrong. And they blocked survivor aura reading and we're messing with my use of Empathy for map awareness and quick rescues.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z259IMZAPH2Y/1988a576e0066-screenshoturl.jpg
Someone popped this one off randomly, probably to hide auras while healing, but inadvertently broadcasted thier location in the process.
I don't think killer mains spent enough time considering how the vials, used badly (or used instead of other items) could benefit them too.
When survivors complain about Clown, is it because they haven't spent enough time considering how the yellow bottles, used badly (or used instead of purple bottles) could benefit them too?