Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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There were less 0k games in 2v8 because the high amount of survivor aura revealing made it a lot easier for killers to find chases, having 2 killers made chase times a lot lower, and remote hooking meant it was a lot easier to hook survivors.
And all those changes allowed the game to have an anti-snowball mechanic for the survivors, and a random hooked survivor location mechanic (anti-tunnel), which resulted in less 8k games.
Which means the games were allowed to have anti-snowball mechanics, because it was much easier for killers to find survivors, it was much easier for killers to end chases with survivors, and it was much easier for killers to hook survivors. Pretty much all of the mechanics that survivors use to slow down the game, were removed, so that survivors could have an anti-snowball mechanic.
(And arguably, 2v8 having double the survivors, also made less likely for perfect games to exist)
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974657#Comment_3974657
1: You're not a dev. No one is going to be like 'hey, I saw this poster on the forums talking about his ideas on how it should work, now I know everything!'
2: Not discussing the possibilities on how a system could work means there is no underlying argument. There is nothing to weigh or evaluate. You might as well type 'I want them to make the game better, but I'm not going to get into how'. Without a 'how', there's nothing to discuss.
3: If BHVR was to not give the specifics on how it actually worked, then new players would have no idea why they triggered it if they just made a mistake.
4: It also sets an unreasonable standard for them to get data on false positives, The vast majority of people don't record their games, so, as happened in this thread, when the community manager comes in asking for more details the poster just has to throw out random guesses on what it might have been.
BHVR is asking for details on what scenarios break the code, so they can try to recreate the issue. And they are trying to recreate the issue, so they can try to learn why the code failed. And they are doing that, so they can try to make the code better. It's how QA testing works.
Nothing in this process, requires you to know how the code works.
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@NekoGamerX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974477#Comment_3974477
how are they ragequiting anyways? you can't ######### on hook anymore and only way to ragequit to DC also if your talking about survivor run up to the killer to be hooked again if that the case the Go Next system will never going to work because it never be able tell the different between a survivor run up to the killer to be hooked again and being tunnel out.
Just to set expectations here. I'm not publicly discussing anything that might allow people to figure out how to bypass the Go Next system.
So any public discussions about how the AI ragequitting detection algorithm might work, isn't happening.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974055#Comment_3974055
Let's be super honest here. Some of the people claimed it was impossible to fix ragequitting, because they are a ragequitter, and don't want BHVR to patch the loopholes they use to ragequit.That is the actual problem here. There are people that would lie and exaggerate about the Go Next system, because they want it gone, because they want to ragequit without getting the DC penalties.There are three problems here.
1: A statement is either true or false. Attacking people's motivations for the statement is avoiding the issue.
2: Even if some people are doing it because of bias, not all people are doing it out of bias. Which again means its trying to avoid the issue via guilt by association.
3: Even if those aren't true, bias goes both ways. Some people have such a desire to get rage quitting removed from the game that they are potentially blinded to the negative impacts the system will have.
That is why every claim against the Go Next system needs to be reviewed. Yes, there might be real problems with the Go Next system, but we need a more accurate estimation of this. For example, is it failing at a rate of 1 in 100,000 or at a rate of 1 in 1,000?Actually, you need four things.
1: How frequently does it fail?
2: How frequently does it work?
3: How much time and resources is this taking from BHVR?
4: How much is it actually stopping rage quitting?
What evidence is there that its actually catching rage quitters? Even if you have a low failure rate, if you aren't actually stopping the behavior its an awful change that ate up tons of resources and introduces potential for new bugs.
Go Next is separated into two parts. Part 1 is the self unhook removal and the 20 match DC queue. Part 2 is the AI ragequit detection.
BHVR absolutely can use data, to determine how well Part 1 did, and how well Part 2 is doing. It's not that difficult.
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One of the big problems with fog vials is they are balanced as if they were limited use items, but they are unlimited use items.
An item if infinite uses needs to be balanced as an item the killer might have to deal with, over and over and over, throughout the entire game. It has to be balanced around the fact that all 4 survivors might be bringing this item to the game.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974407#Comment_3974407
That's gotta be intentionally obtuse. At least with go next, you had the ability to leave the trial as well. Being locked out of the queue entirely through no fault of your own isn't even the same issue.
Are you saying that Go Next should be removed, so that survivors have the option to ragequit if one of their teammates ragequits?
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974407#Comment_3974407
So, I was correct. Your stance is: That the benefit of punishing ragequitters outweighs the cost of punishing innocent survivors.
Also, You didn’t actually answer any of my questions.
I asked why it’s acceptable for Go Next to punish innocent players with real penalties, but you oppose anti-slugging, despite it likely giving no penalties.
Repeating “Go Next helps more than it hurts” doesn’t address that contradiction. By your own logic, if occasional harm to innocent players is acceptable for the greater good, then why isn’t your same standard applied to anti-slugging?
Why is one form of collateral damage acceptable, but not the other?
Less innocent survivors are punished with Go Next, than without Go Next.
This isn't a "greater good" thing. It's literally "which option causes less innocent survivors to be punished"? And the answer is "Go Next being active".
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974356#Comment_3974356
So your stance is that the benefit of punishing ragequitters outweighs the cost of punishing innocent survivors.
I just can’t agree with that. Wrongful penalties in a live service game are serious. Grade losses, matchmaking locks, and warnings stick with players in a way that can’t be undone with “oh well, it was rare.”
If the principle is that innocent players deserve protection, protecting one group of innocent players shouldn’t come at the expense of punishing another group of innocent players.
Why is it acceptable for Go Next to punish innocent players sometimes, but unacceptable for anti-slugging to exist when it wouldn’t even hand out penalties? Why is a system that has given out penalties to an innocent player “less harmful” than a base-kit mechanic that might just let a survivor stand up in a match?
Can you please explain how this isn’t a blatant double standard?
Because innocent players are punished when a survivor ragequits.
The Go Next system lowers ragequitting, which lowers the number of innocent survivors that are punished by a teammate ragequitting.
Therefore, Go Next being in the game, results in less innocent survivors being punished overall.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974319#Comment_3974319
The "punishment" innocent players get due to ragequitters pales in comparison to innocents getting punished by go-next prevention.
Ragequittng leads to two scenarios: a) the Killer may turn friendly, and the remaining players get to farm and goof off and have some fun.
Or b) the Survivors just lose, which is normal gameplay, so ragequitters aren't even a factor in the overall death ratio.
Nope. Every time a survivor ragequits early, it ruins the entire game. It doesn't matter if the killer farms or kills the survivors, because the game has still been ruined.
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974356#Comment_3974356
Frequency is, again, irrelevant.
The system not only can punish innocent players, but it punishes them even though another player did something, it might not even be due to a mistake on their part! You do realize that, out of sheer spite, players could try to purposefully give penalties to other players if they feel like it?
Side-note: After re-reading the patch note, I'm not sure I even saw any mention of the Anti-go-next system returning, which means no one was expecting it to return (and so would have no reason to lie about a false positive). This also means that it took less than 48 hours after the update went live before a post about it was made, even faster than the last time where I think it took about a week before words of false positives started to pop up and a popular streamer got hit with a warning after getting tunnelled, shortly followed by the system being killswitched.
It's also weird from BHVR to shadow-reactivate the previously killswitched system, usually when killswitched things are reactivated there's some kind of announcement (patch note, message in-game etc.) that tells players about it.
The ragequitters are punishing innocent players, far more often than Go Next is.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974356#Comment_3974356
So then why did they disable it?
This is a terrible system.
Because there were enough concerns that BHVR wanted to investigate the issue, and check if the code needed to be modified.
Do you honestly think BHVR turned Go Next off, did absolutely nothing to the code, then turned it back on again?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974315#Comment_3974315
not sure what you mean by reenabled as we never kill switched her?
No current plans for any further changes to her, outside the ones she's just received.There is a joke post on the DBD Reddit, about Pig being killswitched because of this patch. But the post looks real, and some people think it's real.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974319#Comment_3974319
If your concern is protecting innocent players, that should apply across the board, not only when it impacts killers.
Every time Go Next punishes a ragequitter, it helps protect innocent players.
And Go Next is helping protect innocent players, far more often than it is falsely flagging innocent players.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974319#Comment_3974319
Interesting then, that you also claim that the "go next" disconnect isn't changing player counts.
It would seem that the removal of the 4% was very much sufficient to solve this issue. And the extra measure of "go next dc penalty" isn't actually needed.
It would seem the removal of the 4% obviously wasn't sufficient, because the Go Next was turn back on.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974243#Comment_3974243
I really don't get how the argument is even happening (granted, I think it's almost you vs the rest of the playerbase at that point when it comes to defending this system) when it should stop at even a single occurence. There's not even a need for an actual ban to occur in order for any debate to be unnecessary since the system uses the same parameters when issuing warnings and actual penalties.
Imagine being a newcomer to the game (or just someone who plays occasionally and casually, or just someone using STB at the wrong time) and you're unlucky and get hard-tunneled, or simply make a mistake (run into a stealth Killer by accident for example) then you get warned about "suspicious behavior" by the game.
Getting penalties for DCing is fine, going next was considerably reduced by the removal of self-unhooks without perks/offerings. There will always be people who throw in some way out of spite if every other ways to quit are somehow removed. Even if somehow BHVR was able to give the system the mystical ability to tell the difference in any scenarios between bad plays/tunnels/bad luck and actual intentional giving up, some people, out of spite, would start to run around and drop every pallets or just run around but do nothing productive until the Killer eventually finds them.
Frequency isn't an argument, even a single innocent player getting a warning is enough to send such a system back into the oven since, even if it won't be scrapped, it's obviously not done cooking yet and still needs work because it can punish the wrong people.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974304#Comment_3974304
A) shifting the goal post.
B) I'm sorry you don't have the notarized, ink signed contracts from first hand eye witness accounts that you seem to want
C) quantity is basically irrelevant for almost everyone in this thread (except you, apparently). If "anti tunneling" charged the killer auric cells when it "detected some very strict version of tunneling" but it only happened twice to people who posted, would that make it ok? Because for me, and most everyone else, the answer is no. But your answer appears to be "it's fine, because not enough people have been impacted".
@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974243#Comment_3974243
The system falsely flagging is not some hypothetical scenario. It already happened before. BHVR already disabled the Go Next system once, which alone shows it wasn’t functioning properly.
Here’s the contradiction: You defend Go Next because of the potential good, despite the risk of punishing innocent players. But you oppose anti-slugging for the exact same reason. The only difference is which role it affects.
And realistically, anti-slug will likely mirror anti-camp: no penalties, just a mechanic that mitigates abuse. So is the argument really that (potentially, because we don’t know) a base-kit unbreakable is “worse” than survivors losing grades, being locked out of matchmaking, and receiving DC penalties for things out of their control? Is that your stance?
My stance is we currently have A LOT of innocent players that are punished because survivors are bypassing DC penalties. That should matter.
People should be caring that ragequitting punishes innocent players too.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974243#Comment_3974243
Likely because 1) tunneling is less common, and 2) not as many people have access to video recording tools. But just because it's less common doesn't mean it's acceptable.
Oh, and one more reason could be because people are actually afraid to play as Survivor out of fear of getting falsely flagged.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974243#Comment_3974243
The Go Next system isn't falsely punishing people anywhere near as often as most people's anti-slugging ideas would.
I've seen many ideas about how anti slugging could be implemented, but I've never, ever, seen anyone say that the killer should receive a dc penalty for slugging.
Trying to compare these two things is wild, especially since you're not even trying to consider the consequences or severity.
You're basically, unironically, trying to imply (without directly saying it) that "yeah, it's bad that people are getting dc penalties inappropriately, but it could be worse: they could actually lose out on a kill".
The fact that this is punishing the person behind the keyboard, outside of the game, is why they should be very, very careful not to have false positives, at all.
And we do have video of brand new players who are triggering this system simply because they don't know how to play the game yet.
This still doesn't explain why we had so many evidence videos of the AFK crow punishments, but so few videos of Go Next punishments.
And steamcharts still has a normal volume of players, so there isn't a large percentage of players that "are afraid to play survivor".
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974055#Comment_3974055
get your point about how someone could potentially exaggerate, but dismissing real issues because “some might lie” is a slippery slope. A system that gives strikes, DC penalties, and grade losses shouldn’t ever falsely flag players, period.
The fact that survivors have already gotten real penalties means it’s not just hypothetical. Even if the error rate was/is low, innocent players getting punished is still a problem. And expecting players to record every match to prove innocence isn’t reasonable. Functioning systems shouldnt rely on constant player evidence to be valid.
You and I have personally discussed many times about the potential anti-slug changes. You’ve said that anti slugging changes risk punishing killers for things outside their control, which is why you were against them. But this Go Next system is doing exactly that, but you defend it. Genuinely, Why is that?
The Go Next system isn't falsely punishing people anywhere near as often as most people's anti-slugging ideas would.
Look how rare the evidence is for the Go Next false flags. There are people in this forums thread, that would absolutely jump at the chance to prove the Go Next system isn't working properly, but instead of giving their own evidence, they just comment on what happened to other people.
We certainly had a lot of videos floating around the internet of people getting AFK crows, when the anti hiding update happened. So why aren't we seeing a lot of videos floating around the internet, of people getting falsely flagged by the Go Next system?
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974060#Comment_3974060
I meant the perk from wraith or Billy that causes pools of blood to glow.
It would be better if Stridor countered the fog vials, and allowed the killer to easily hear the survivors.
Because using a perk slot, on a tracking system that still requires line of sight, isn't anywhere as good. The problem with fog vials isn't that the blood is difficult to see, it's that it's blocking way too many other things at the same time.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973853#Comment_3973853
Vials erase all core tracking mechanics
Untrue. You can still see them at close distance and you can follow their pools of blood. You could even run bloodhound to see their pools of blood better if you have such an big issue with them.
They also don‘t have no counterplay. It is pretty easy to find survivors most of the time. My only issue playing this patch is the chase being bugged which makes me lose a lot more than the new item.
H
Houndsense only shows the blood brighter when the survivor is in the dying state.
Yes, that's terrible and it really should work on injured and deep wounded survivors. But it doesn't, and it's sad.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973733#Comment_3973733
When people said, and explained why, something was impossible, BHVR should not have taken that as a challenge (edit to add: without having figured out a way to fix those things people said would be the problems, because that's what has happened so far).
Let's be super honest here. Some of the people claimed it was impossible to fix ragequitting, because they are a ragequitter, and don't want BHVR to patch the loopholes they use to ragequit.
That is the actual problem here. There are people that would lie and exaggerate about the Go Next system, because they want it gone, because they want to ragequit without getting the DC penalties.
That is why every claim against the Go Next system needs to be reviewed. Yes, there might be real problems with the Go Next system, but we need a more accurate estimation of this. For example, is it failing at a rate of 1 in 100,000 or at a rate of 1 in 1,000?
The most helpful thing, would be for people to record their matches, and submit the videos to BHVR if they feel the Go Next system is working incorrectly. If the Go Next system is failing often, then it should be really easy to get recorded video evidence of it failing, right?
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973723#Comment_3973723
- I agree to the terms and conditions, they can bring perks to suppress noises. Suppressing aura and scratchies is very strong in itself and makes sense for the item. Noises not so much.
3. If you’re in chase already it shouldn’t affect chase if they drop it mid chase and you’re still on them. If you’re not already in chase it shouldn’t start chase, unless you’ve smacked em at least once in it. If your both out of of the fog it should obviously start chase. I’m hearing mixed things. I agree it should be looked into regardless.
4. fair enough, it’s already strong on its’ own.Why shouldn't it start chase? Survivors should be immune to entity blocking windows, and immune to killers gaining bloodlust, for the entire time a fog cloud is up?
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973470#Comment_3973470
But *why?* Why is this system necessary? The removal of self-unhook was effective in preventing the go-next, so there's no reason to add anything else.
Because people on these forums kept telling us that if BHVR removed self-unhooks, that survivors would find other ways to bypass the DC penalties.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973647#Comment_3973647
- It should either block audio or aura you choose(I think aura makes more sense and would rather lose the noises) #makeyourchoice, but either way 2-3 charges flat for the item.2 for aura blocking, 3 if it’s noise
- It can be toned down a little.
- no, it’s a smoke bomb your visually impaired, outside of it yes.
- Like natural or like with offerings?
It already blocks auras. So allowing the killer to hear survivor noises would
1] Fog vials blocking auras is fine. But blocking survivor audio is too much
3] It's literally messing up chases right now, to the point where they won't start. It's also messing up some killer powers, even if the killer can plainly see the survivor in the fog. And this has to be a bug, because some killer powers are allowed to "see" through the fog, and some aren't.
4] The fog vials shouldn't stack with any other fog effect.
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@Readyplayerone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973624#Comment_3973624
I was under the assumption it was just a smoke bomb, so I missed the detail on the aura as well.
Wiki link:The wiki is missing the fact that the fog blocks survivor noises, but doesn't block killer noises.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973615#Comment_3973615
I knew it covered noises and scratch marks, aura too is probably a bit much. I feel like IF the killer brings aura perks the smoke bombs shouldn’t interfere with that. Thank you for the answer. I haven’t had the chance to experience it from the killer side yet.
What do you think?
- I think they shouldn't block any audio.
- The iri addon still blocks too much visually
- Survivors in a fog cloud should still be considered "in line of sight"
- The fog effect should stack with a map's natural fog effect
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973577#Comment_3973577
do they disable aura reading?
Yes! They remove aura reading, scratchmarks, and survivor noises.
But they don't remove killer noises! Survivors can hear killers, but killers can't hear survivors!!!
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Skull Merchant is a lower priority because it’s way more work.
Even though there was a large disagreement amongst Trickster players on how Trickster should be reworked, everyone agreed Trickster should throw knives, and have the Main Event feature. As in, people agreed he should fundamentally have the same powers.
But Skull Merchant is basically a massive change to her powers, and people can’t even agree on what her actual powers should be.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973336#Comment_3973336
please dont murder their vision obstruction, that's literally the point of their entire existence.
please just fix gimmicky power interactions like singu not being allowed to TP to people with m2 and make the visuals less "flashbang white" so people have the vision obstructed, not flashed.
@Volcz said:
I don't mind them on either side. Its a fun item for survivors and another tool to deal with for killers + they were a lot stronger before.
The whole point of them is to obscure vision and they do that without being completely broken.
I hope these survivor PoV feedbacks can be shared too.
A lot of survivors really don’t care that the fog vials block survivor audio, so it should be fine if the fog vials allow killers to hear survivors.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973350#Comment_3973350
Glad you've gotten use out of them.
Had someone try and do this for my chase and we ended up running into each other and I died :/
It's fine if I see them run over and know they're planning to jump in for me because I can prepare for potentially losing LOS. But unexpectedly having fog dropped on me has proved more of a hindrance than helpful so far.
Also had a teammate drop fog before healing me and it basically was just a big beacon on the map for the killer saying "They're over here." and he came over and interrupted us before she could get the heal done.
Maybe it's a skill issue on behalf of me or my teammates, but I'm yet to see a situation where a standard bodyblock or something wouldn't have just been an easier option.
Bodyblocking is definitely easier, as the fog vials need to be timed and placed well.
But body blocking also requires the teammate to get hit, which means they are starting the chase in the injured or deep wound state. Using fog vials causes the killer to switch targets, and allows the survivor a head start in an area without zero scratchmarks/survivor noises/auras, and the survivor is in the healthy state.
And, fog vials actually cause the killer to drop their current target. There are a lot of killers, that if you bodyblock them, they’ll hit you and immediate run away to continue chasing their original target.
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From a solo q survivor perspective, I’ve been completely messing up a lot of chases, when I use the item altruistically while the killer is trying to chase someone else, even without the iri addon.
As in I’ll ambush the killer with the fog vial, then hang out near a line of sight breaker. The killer can’t tell I’m a different survivor because of the fog, and will run after me instead.
It’s basically like aggressively bodyblocking the killer, except that I’m not actually bodyblocking the killer, so I’m at full health when the killer switches to chasing me.
I think the reason why there are so many different opinions on the fog vials, is because some people don’t know how to use them, and will just drop a fog vial when the killer is closely chasing them. The fog vials really work best when the are used altruistically, or when the killer doesn’t know the exact location of the survivor.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973192#Comment_3973192
True, opacity was smaller nerf. But it reduces duration and size.
…And they’re still way more powerful than the void crystals and fog crystals.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452242/please-remove-fog-vials
To be honest. I don't truly understand the hates towards fog vials, because they are pretty meh. And with iridescent add on being nerfed quite heavily, they are even worse. People are complaining about medkits and stale gameplay and when anything new comes they keep complaining too. I was facing them and trying them and it didn't do anything, killers been still able to track me. The only use I saw was to pop it when someone gets hooked to prevent bbq. If you don't want people to run just medkits, there must be incentive to run something else and as maps been nerfed heavily too to the point where it's windows on limits, removing any killer tracking, totems tracking, gen tracking etc. Keys, again baby version of perk that you'd always run over item to get way more consistent value. Medkits will be still best items because there is just nothing else. People will run vials for a moment and then will move away from them.
The iri addon originally had an opacity of 53%, and now it has an opacity of 50%. That really doesn’t count as “nerfed quite heavily”
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Hopefully, the Go Next system keeps an audit of every time the AI felt a survivor was trying to ragequit.
Because there is a huge difference between the AI thinking a survivor tried to ragequit 20 times, and is punishing what it think is the 21st ragequit… and the AI punishing a survivor even though it literally never thought any of their previous games involved ragequitting.
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I tried this, and it's happening to me also. The fog prevents teleports even when the killer can clearly see the survivor in the fog.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972317#Comment_3972317
I appreciate you laying all of this out so clearly and detailing specifically where your frustration with this is coming from. That sort of information is SUPER helpful on my side since it helps me better target feedback, so thank you! I can confirm that feedback about Survivors being silent within fog has been passed along to the team.
Thank you. And even though this sounds harsh, the thing that killed a lot of other asymmetrical games, is when the killer side felt useless because the survivors were allowed to "fight back" too much.
And that is what the fog vials feel like to me. I feel absolutely useless, because there is zero counterplay. I really want to know what the killer is intended to do as counterplay, because it literally feels like "just guess and guess and guess, in an 8-10 yard radius". And if multiple survivors have this item, it might be a giant guessing game, 4 times in the same chase.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Man, Survivors get one new thing and it is instant crying on the Forums. Instead of just waiting a few days before the Fog Vials are not as common anymore.
Let alone… A bit weak for single use, eh?
Fog vials are unbalanced, regardless of their popularity. They won't magically become more fair if less people use them.
And it's not "instant crying". We've seen fog crystals and void crystals before, and fog vials are way more obnoxious than those two items were.
BHVR literally took the fog crystals and void crystals, massively increased their range, still allowed them to super block visibility, and then decided to additionally block survivor audio and aura reading.
Like for reals, why couldn't survivors just get fog crystals instead? Was it considered "not good enough" because the killer was actually allowed to have counterplay?
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@UnicornMedal said:
The fact that we have a big Survivor chapter and the queues are still skewed should be very concerning. At the same time every trial today has been a steamroll before 3 gens are even done, so I can see why.
My survivor queue time is obnoxious right now, and it's usually way too early for me to be seeing a bonus on the killer side.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972521#Comment_3972521
It kinda sucks that they are awesome on some maps and ######### on others. It also makes balancing them difficult.
I think the fog vials just need to set the opacity to a certain number, instead of decreasing the opacity by a certain number.
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@Langweilig said:
Is it intended that the fog viles are more effective on some maps than others?
On Eirie of crows for example the fog is way more dense than other maps with fog viles. Same goes for the fog offerings which are way stronger there and do almost nothing on other maps.
I think the fog vial opacity is stacking with the map basekit opacity.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972462#Comment_3972462
It was bugged on the PTB and never got fixed going into the Live Servers, can confirm based on what Ive seen.
Fortunately, since it's a once per trial perk, you can eat the stun and disable it for the whole match. Obviously it isnt the best solution ever, but BHVR is not going to Killswitch the perk, they rarely use the Killswitch and it's a new perk release so they just arent going to.
I thought the stun only happens if the survivor vaults towards the killer? How is the killer supposed to eat the stun, if the survivors are purposely only vaulting away from the killer?
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972426#Comment_3972426
Mind games. People love them.
Except that it's just one-sided mind games, because the fog doesn't block the killer's red stain, and it doesn't block the killer's audio…. so the survivors can still track the killer way easier than the killer can track the survivors.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972385#Comment_3972385
Honestly, I'd prefer if items were infinite use, then balanced around that. Like toolboxes would slowly recharge over time, but be less powerful. Same with medkits. Smaller, more consistent benefits.
I’m ok with fog vials being unlimited use.
But medkits are intentionally designed so people can only get 1 self heal from them, unless they use an iri addon. Allowing medkit charges to recharge, would completely remove that restriction.
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@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/452242/please-remove-fog-vials
If it blocks sound for both survivors to hear the killer and the killer hearing survivor i think thats completely fine and honestly it can backfire for a user that does not know how to gain advantage off of that.
+ just run predator perk
Incorrect! The fog doesn't block killer audio!!!!! Survivors are allowed to hear the killer!!!
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972195#Comment_3972195
Fog Vials definitely should have charges. However. Personally I don't think Fog Vials will be a very common item.
A week or 2 after the update, the lobbies will be back to 4 medkits with syringes and styptics.
It doesn't matter how popular fog vials are. They're still a hard counter to Spirit, to the point where there's zero reason to play Spirit if the survivors have fog vials.
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@Vrose29 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972159#Comment_3972159
You may know it and simply not saying it which may be my disconnect. That percent is the total percentage of a successful unhook within a total of 3 attempts (once again suggesting 2). The verbiage of "12% chance after hooking" is why I said you were wrong. Many people weren't unhooking prior to the change, and that wording made it sound like you thought the chances stacked, when they don't. The chance being taken away when teammates don't unhook or we are all down (can only try when 2 people are left in trial) is a bit of an overcorrection to going next. No one prior to this change would argue unhooking was overpowered, the complaint was people going next. Which they fixed but in that people lost their chance to unhook, which is a small percentage. In 20 games there's a chance that in less than 3 games you would unhook yourself, which isn't awful.
Seriously, that is the math for a survivor making 3 unhook attempts, that each have a 4% chance of success. It's literally how math works. There's literally an entire branch of math, called combinatorics, that agrees with me.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey folks. I really appreciate all of your feedback on the Fog Vial in here. We're actively collecting this feedback in order to bring it back to the team, so please know, it's being read.
As you get chances to encounter this item in the wild, please don't hesitate to share your in-game experiences here. Specifics about what feels good and what doesn't (like the note about The Spirit above!) are super helpful.
It's literally all the killers that feel miserable now.
Giving survivors an large AoE that blocks survivor audio, and scratchmarks, and auras, is enough to be an entire item by itself, even if it didn't have a fog effect at all.
If a killer gets flashlight blinded while they are breaking a pallet, then the killer has zero clue where the survivor went, because they can't hear the survivor, and the survivor doesn't leave scratchmarks.
Why is it so important that killer stuff has counterplay for survivors…. but the fog vials are allowed to block visual, AND audio, AND auras, AND scratchmarks?
- if the iri addon is going to raise opacity as much as it does, it should reduce the range to 4 meters, so that it's 6 meters with the +range addon, which is the same range as the fog crystals were.
- Fog vials just shouldn't reduce audio at all. It feels absolutely awful that so many people showed concern about the audio removal, and BHVR removed the muffled sound effect, and decided that fixed the complaints about the audio removal.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972248#Comment_3972248
As a Spirit main… I don't even want to play anymore. At least not right now. There's no point. Everyone and their brother will be using the item that basically removes her entire power, so you won't even be able to lobby dodge it. Which is what you'll have to do. Spirit will now have to dodge any lobby that has a Fog Vial, just like Trapper did with maps or Wraith did with flashlights.
I don't even want to play killer at all now. I didn't want to play killer during the Haunted event with the for crystals, and these are way more powerful than the for crystals.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972223#Comment_3972223
That's absolutely disgusting. This might be the worst patch they've released in a loooooong time. "Heal one survivor and get infinite unbreakable! Here's an item that covers half the map and makes you completely undetectable by any means! By the way, we murdered a C tier killer and introduced a new item that drops a popular A tier killer into the dumpster! Have fun!"
BHVR basically took the event fog crystals, made the area up to 2.7 TIMES LARGER, then added survivor audio removal, and survivor aura removal. And made the item automatically recharge.
This is beyond awful. How on earth was the fog crystals considered "too weak", and that we needed all these things added to it???
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3972199#Comment_3972199
Is that base item?
Or with the iri?
That is with the Iri
That is the base item on the Garden Of Joy. BHVR decided to buff the opacity of the base item, even though they made ZERO NERFS to the other things this item hides.
And according to the patch notes, the fog magically removes survivor noises, but doesn't remove killer noises. As in, survivors are still completely silent, but it's "supposed to be ok" because it doesn't make the muffled noise anymore.
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@Amarok said:
So, I'll have to test how playing against the fog jars really plays out, but I cannot understand why they don't get charges.
Every item a survivor can bring has charges, why make an exception for them? Being able to use them infinitely is insane in my opinion.
Survivors (in my opinion) have to make each usage of any resource count one or the other way as at some point, they are depleted.
Please make the usage of the smoke more risk/reward kind of type.
I'm also scpetical on the "survivors make no sound at all". Survivor gets injured, throws smoke bomb, gets free 100% Iron will. I dunnooooo. I don't like it.Also note the patch notes say survivor noises get removed, but doesn't say killer noises get removed. It's a magical fog, I guess.
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This is supposed to be fair and balanced? Are you kidding?
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My guess is they want to test if the "play as you wait" feature fixes the queue times, and that it would be impossible to fix queue times if new killers were released, because too many people would be playing the new killers.