Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979709#Comment_3979709
Clearly we think differently about the Ghoul timeline, but that’s not actually the point. I think we’re getting lost in the weeds here.
Can we come to some kind of agreement to end this cordially ? Meet In the middle? This feels like we’re just repeating the same things over and over and I don’t want this conversation to end up like our last one.
How is this: All things should be given more time on live before balance changes are made?
Is that a reasonable agreement?That is not a reasonable argument. There should never be a mandatory grace period for new content.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979232#Comment_3979232
Why are we pretending that all of the changes from PTB to Live were nerfs. Literally all of those were buffs or sidegrades…
How is “Reduced Reticule aiming on Survivor detection for grab-attack by 94%” a buff or a sidegrade?
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979718#Comment_3979718
Absolutely not. The visuals are supposed to go hand-in-hand with suppressing the other things. Suppressing auras and scratch marks is useless if the killer can see all the way through the “fog” which is at best a mist at this point. The vials are supposed to be a counter to things like lethal pursuer and BBQ the same way that light born is a counter to flashlights. It’s also supposed to be a counter to tunneling.
And no, dropping it when the killer is already up your ass isn’t going to be helpful. But when the killer is a good distance away, and they still have LOS through the of the fog. It becomes pointless.The only change that actually needs to happen is adding charges.
This game has a lot of anti-tunneling stuff for survivors, that all revolve around unhooking a survivor or being unhooked… but we're supposed to believe fog vials were designed to be anti-tunnel, even though they have absolutely nothing to do with hooks? We're supposed to believe that an item that can be used while the killer has 0 hooks, is intentionally designed to be a counter to tunneling?
None of this is believable.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979709#Comment_3979709
I mean objectively they are with certain softwares. That’s not me also saying they’re not inconsistent as well under normal circumstances. That still doesn’t answer my question directly though, which is:
Where is the line for you?
- The 3 bugs where the fog effect gets super boosted, need to be fixed.
- If the fog vials are going to block survivor noises, AND survivor auras, AND survivor scratchmarks, then the fog effect absolutely should be very weak.
- If the fog vials only blocked scratchmarks, then the basekit fog vial opacity can go back to the pre-nerfed value.
- Honestly, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that BHVR keeps insisting the fog vials need to block survivor noises and survivor auras. It's super clear that the vast majority of survivors only care about the visual fog effect.
- Like seriously, look at all the screenshots survivors post, when they complain about the fog vial nerfs. They only care about the visual fog effect.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979675#Comment_3979675
just a question out of curiosity. Is this an example of acceptable or unable acceptable fog?
I can’t see through your eyes, but I can see through mine and I can make out shack. The object on the far top left that leads to the jungle gym. The pit in middle left. The double tubes on the right. The debris that are chilling in the middle by the tube on the right. I can see straight through this to the other side. I can literally see the other side of the map from where you’re standing.It's what the fog is supposed to do at its current opacity. Multiple people were claiming the fog vials are affected by gamma settings, and was even claiming that if someone said the fog-vial fog is too thick, it's because they're boosting the game brightness.
@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979611#Comment_3979611
Okay, so in your opinion, the 15 days Ghoul spent on live before the hotfix don’t count as a grace period, only the time after that point. That is your opinion and that’s fine.
But as I’ve already said, if you truly believe there’s no difference between the grace period Ghoul received and the one fog vials received, I still don’t see how that would change your position on advocating for more time on live before changes are made. Whether or not you agree with me that the grace period was different in these cases doesn’t actually change the broader point. That allowing players more time to adapt before making balance changes is healthier for the game.
No. BHVR said multiple times they can't get all the PTB changes ready for launch day, and they need additional time to get the rest of the changes done. It takes time to code all those nerfs.
Wait…. You don't think code changes are instant, do you? Like, do you think BHVR waited 2 weeks after launch, decided Ghoul needed 12 more nerfs, and then instantly coded the nerfs so they could be released the next day?
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979611#Comment_3979611
It's fair to point out all the nerfs that The Ghoul received shortly after release and yet he's still a consistently popular Killer. He hasn't been given the Chucky treatment by BHVR just yet.
But the Fog Vials… Yeah, they've reportedly all but disappeared. I'm not playing DBD at the moment because I'm not happy with the state of the game, but I do still watch streamers play and I've seen only one today. To be fair, the Survivor got decent value but the streamer had pretty high gamma settings, so I think that's why it was more effective (we know they work better on certain maps as well).
In any case, the community seems to think that it's pretty much dead in its current state.
The gamma settings don't really make a difference.
When you see a super bright fog picture, it's probably because of a lighting effect in the map itself, and not the player's gamma settings.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979517#Comment_3979517
I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant by “wait and see.” I’m not talking about whether players complained, players always do. I’m referring to how the devs and community at large respond to those complaints. Take the Ghoul, which you brought up: he was live for 15 days before the hotfix came, and in a Reddit AMA on July 23, when asked if more changes were coming due to continued frustration, Jeff stated that Ghoul was on their radar, that they are aware of some friction points that they would like to address but that, because he was “still new to the roster, we are taking the necessary time to review everything before setting things in stone.” That’s what I mean by “wait and see.” If Ghoul still constitutes as being new to the roster then the fog vials absolute are too.
What I don’t understand is what issue you have with my stance. As I said I am not against fog vials receiving changes, but only after a decent grace-period in the game. Are you saying new killers don’t typically get that grace period I was talking about? If that were true, wouldn’t it be more consistent to advocate that all new content be given time in the live game to breathe before balancing changes happen? Doesn’t it make sense to want those things for the game?
You clearly feel they were problematic enough to warrant immediate nerfs, that’s your opinion, and that’s fine. I disagree. Perhaps we should simply leave it at that.
Ghoul did not get an immediate grace period. BHVR literally gave Ghoul 25 nerfs before starting the grace period.
Likewise, it's absolutely fine for Fog Vials to get nerfs, before starting the grace period.
It's literally the same thing. The grace period for EVERYTHING IN THE GAME should start when BHVR is ready for it.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979267#Comment_3979267
is the fog being illuminated by the Entity touched planet?
Some outdoor maps have a section of sky, where bright light happens. On the daytime maps, I’m assuming it’s supposed to be the sun, but this map also has a bright light in the sky for whatever reason.
The fog vials also get buggy on environmental items like fire barrels, because the light from the fire barrels makes the fog effect get super bright.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979456#Comment_3979456
You do realize that all of the things that you’ve labeled as “bugs” are exactly how a fog operates in real life with different environments and conditions, including light.
Aside from that, how many days ago are these pictures from? Because ain’t nobody’s fog looking like that now.
The pictures were taken yesterday, after the patch.
Yes, people’s fog does look like that, even with zero filters. It’s literally why I’ve been complaining that the fog vials are bugged.
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@Coordi said:
Please keep the post civil and on topic! Whilst the difference between infinite and not infinite is noted since a Trial does end, let's move on from that aspect of it and continue the discussion without those specific semantics. <3
This entire thread is invalid. It’s based around the false statement that fog vials are only “too strong” if people are using filters.
But fog vials have been proven to be bugged even with zero filters.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979414#Comment_3979414
I was under the impression that changes didn't happen until after the first 2 weeks of his release. Patch 8.6.0 on April 2nd, and hotfix 8.6.2 on the 17th, meaning it was live for 15 days. That is the "wait and see" I was referring to. And if we're being completley honest I do not think comparing the release of Ghoul to the release of the fog vials is fair in terms of power. You may disagree and feel that fog vials are stronger than Ghoul but that will be an agree to disagree.
There wasn’t a “wait and see”. Survivors complained non-stop during the PTB, and they continued to complain non-stop until the hotfix.
I honestly have no idea where you are getting the idea that survivors were patiently doing a “wait and see”. It didn’t happen.
BHVR also didn’t do a “wait and see”. There were so many nerfs lined up, that it took extra time to get them all in the hotfix.
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Fog Vial Bug #1: A map's natural fog effects, like from this swamp map, effect's the fog vial's fog effect.
Can the fog vials please set the opacity to a certain number, instead of increasing opacity by a certain number? This is the swamp map's natural fog effect, interacting with the fog vial.
Fog Vial Bug #2: Environmental lighting from the sky is affecting the fog vial's fog effect.
Fog Vial Bug #3: Environmental lighting from objects, like this fire barrel, is also affecting the fog vial's fog effect.
Additional Note: Having a +range addon, means the fog vials need to be balanced around having that addon. +Range doesn't just make the fog area bigger, it also makes it more difficult to see through an entire fog cloud, because the killer is looking through an extra 4 meters of fog effect.
Another Additional Note: It's awkward that the fog scales based on range. As in, trying to see a survivor when there is 10 meters of fog between the killer and survivor, is way harder than trying to see a survivor when there is 4 meters of fog between the killer and survivor. It basically means that the fog vials can have opacity nerfs, and still completely hide the survivor, because the fog cloud functionally "stacks with itself".
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979232#Comment_3979232
You’re talking about PTB changes, but my comment was referring to live gameplay, once something is actually in the game. That’s when the ‘give it time, let players adjust’ argument always comes out (which it rightfully should.) With Ghoul, like your example, when he first came out plenty of people said survivors just needed to learn the counterplay and didn’t believe he needed any additional adjustments. Behavior acknowledged the concerns or frustrations of players and reassured that they were monitoring it. My point is that the same was not down for this item. That same grace period was not given.
BHVR didn’t do any of that. Shortly after Ghoul went live, BHVR released a hotfix where they nerfed 12 more things. I literally have those nerfs listed in the above post.
There were literally 25 nerfs that Ghoul got, before the “wait and see” started.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979270#Comment_3979270
Thanks.
I suppose they could still be worth bringing (if you want to role the dice), but I wish they'd at least waited to fix their effects to be consistent across all maps before considering nerfs. If I'm being optimistic, these hasty nerfs might be temporary damage control that will be reversed once the vials have been given charges like every other item. I guess we'll see about that next week.
Maybe they found less Killers were queuing up and determined the Fog Vials were a reason for that. The streetwise bug and the current dumpster fire this patch has been overall might have more to do with players staying away, but what do I know…
I personally have refused to play killer this entire chapter because of the fog vials.
There are too many maps where the fog effect is way too much, and too many specific places on other maps where the fog effect is way too much.
Also, fog vials are still miserable to go against if survivors use them when the killer doesn’t have line of sight, because the fog vials block survivor noises, scratchmarks, and auras, so it becomes a giant guessing game for the killer.
The worst part is that even though I super hate that it’s blocking all these non-visual tracking methods, survivors only care about the actual visual fog effect. Which means we all get to be miserable.
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@tjt85 said:
Has anyone tested these out with a reagent offering yet? And does that make any difference to their effectiveness? I'm hoping there's still some way to make the vials useful, because I've already spent millions of BP building up a stockpile of Fog Vials on my main.
Never been an item person, so it was a novelty to actually have something to spend my BP on and bring into trial (I only really take med-kits into Chaos Shuffle or when I put on silly meme/lore builds). Survivor was actually fun to play for 2 weeks but with these nerfs, it's back into Survivor retirement for me again.
I’ve tested it with the fog offerings. It’s very RNG if it helps, because the fog offerings create very random puffs of fog.
As in sometimes, it doesn’t help at all, and sometimes the fog-offering fog will completely hide the survivor.
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@MeduSnake said:
I understand the sound nerf of the Fog Vile. But the "It's too strong I can't see anything" only came from people sharing clips of their modded game with multiple filters since they are so bad that they need every help that doesn't ban them.
These screenshot were both taken with zero filters.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979232#Comment_3979232
Everything changes from PTB to live. That’s the point of PTB. Your argument is invalid.
That’s the point I was trying to make.
Someone was claiming that fog vials were held to a different standard than killers, but killers often have major changes going from PTB to live.
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@hermitkermit said:
I really don’t understand why the community couldn’t get some time to adjust and learn counterplay for awhile before adjustments were made. Hasn’t that been the insistence with every killer release? I don’t understand why these items are held to a different standard.
Patch 8.6.0
CONTENT
- New Killer - The Ghoul
- PTB ADJUSTMENTS
- The Ghoul
- Increased the base sliding effect from 0.4 seconds to 0.8 seconds, on par with Anteiku Apron effect.
- Decreased the Tentacle Vault time at pallet from 2.0 seconds to 1.5 seconds to be at the same time as Tentacle window vault.
- Retuned the Tentacle Swing system to minimize the power interruption during swings or dealing around obstacles.
- Decreased Enrage Countdown Timer from 60 seconds to 45 seconds.
- Decreased Countdown added Time Bonus when completing a perfectly timed grab-attack from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
- Addon Kaneki's Wallet: Increased the window bonus time from 1.0 second to 3.0 seconds.
- Addon Anteiku Apron: Decreased the sliding bonus effect from 100% to -50%.
- Addon Broken Chain: Increased the decrease Cooldown bonus from 20% to 35%.
- Addon Satchel: Increased the Third Kagune Leap bonus speed from 20% to 30%.
- Addon Taiyaki: Increased Enraged Mode Countdown bonus Time from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.
- Addon Hinami's Umbrella: Rarity changed from Rare to Very Rare.
- Addon Red Spider: Rarity changed from Very Rare to Rare.
- Addon Yamori's Mask: Removed the Healthy requirement from the activation.
Hotfix 8.6.2
THE GHOUL
- Reduced Tentacle range from 16 meters to 14 meters.
- Reduced Enraged mode time from 45 seconds to 40 seconds.
- Reduced Enraged bonus time when performing a perfectly timed grab-attack from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.
- Reduced Reticule Stickiness Time effect on targeted Survivor from 0.3 seconds to 0.18 seconds.
- Reduced Reticule aiming on Survivor detection for grab-attack by 94%.
- Reduced Grab-attacks Damage minimum distance requirement to activate over obstacles by -30%.
- After breaking a pallet, if the Killer Power is not in cooldown, power goes into a forced cooldown equal to a single Leap usage.
- Addon Fresh Coffee: Changed rarity from Common to Very Rare.
- Addon Hinami's Umbrella: Reworked Effect - Performing a perfectly timed grab-attack award an extra +10.0 seconds of Enraged bonus time and changed rarity from Very Rare to Uncommon.
- Addon Blood stained Handkerchief: Reduced Kagune's reach from 2 meters to 1 meter.
- Addon Taiyaki: Reduced the Enraged Mode countdown from 15 seconds to 5 seconds and changed rarity from Uncommon to Common.
- Addon Yamori's Mask: Added the activation requirement of "all Survivors further than 40m".
Ghoul literally had a giant list of nerfs going from PTB to Live, and then another giant list of nerfs soon after in a hotfix. There wasn't any "let's wait and see" for all these changes.
- New Killer - The Ghoul
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979013#Comment_3979013
I'm not sure, that still looks about right to me. Maybe I'm wrong.
It's definitely not as pronounced as the second screenshot though, that one's really noticeable.
This is also a screenshot of me being in the middle of a fog cloud.
Compare this, to the fire barrel screenshot.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979004#Comment_3979004
Is the third one a bug? I would assume you're supposed to be able to see the fire barrel through the fog.
Is there something else here I'm missing? Genuinely.
The lighting from the fire barrel, is causing the fog effect to be massively brighter, which means people can't see the area around the fire barrel.
As in, if the fire barrel wasn't there, then it would have been much easier to see through the fog effect.
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Fog Vial Bug #1: A map's natural fog effects, like from this swamp map, effect's the fog vial's fog effect.
Can the fog vials please set the opacity to a certain number, instead of increasing opacity by a certain number? This is the swamp map's natural fog effect, interacting with the fog vial.
Fog Vial Bug #2: Environmental lighting from the sky is affecting the fog vial's fog effect.
Fog Vial Bug #3: Environmental lighting from objects, like this fire barrel, is also affecting the fog vial's fog effect.
Additional Note: Having a +range addon, means the fog vials need to be balanced around having that addon. +Range doesn't just make the fog area bigger, it also makes it more difficult to see through an entire fog cloud, because the killer is looking through an extra 4 meters of fog effect.
Another Additional Note: It's awkward that the fog scales based on range. As in, trying to see a survivor when there is 10 meters of fog between the killer and survivor, is way harder than trying to see a survivor when there is 4 meters of fog between the killer and survivor. It basically means that the fog vials can have opacity nerfs, and still completely hide the survivor, because the fog cloud functionally "stacks with itself".
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Meanwhile, iri hatchets, and iri pinkie finger got the charges forced down to 1, and I haven’t seen anyone using them since those nerfs happened.
It’s fairly normal for killer iri addons to get super nerfed.
And survivors absolutely will complain about overperforming killer iri addons until they get nerfed.
So there really shouldn’t be an expectation that survivor iri addons need to be powerful.
@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978444#Comment_3978444
And mods will listen to killer mains like you as usual, I hope you will enjoy longer queue times then 🫤
I’ve refused to play killer this entire patch because of fog vials, and my survivor queue times have been absolutely horrible all week.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978512#Comment_3978512
I've been wondering why so many killers are claiming to have problems with fog vials when they're honestly not even bad. Makes me wonder now how many killers are using programs like Reshade and they actually want the vials gone because it clashes with their settings 🙄
The fog effects aren’t consistent. They are much more difficult to see through on maps that have a basekit fog effect.
There is also something happening, that makes the fog effect way brighter sometimes. As in, I could see a fog vial being used 5 times on the same map, and for whatever reason, the 5th time is way brighter than the others. I want to test if it involves environmental lighting (i.e. fire barrels), but there’s definitely something weird happening.
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@Amanova said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978436#Comment_3978436
That map is also useless I tested 5s aura and skinny 8m range, new iri addons are garbage all of them including fog vials. Going bad to my medkit with needle and styptic...
Sounds like syringes and styptics need to be nerfed, so that survivors are encouraged to bring other items.
Medkits are outdated, and should be reworked like keys and maps were.
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If you want a risk-free Blood Amber, then use the Map's Crimson Stamp instead. Blood Amber is supposed to have a downside because its range is way better.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978115#Comment_3978115
So is Tombstone Micheal circumventing the typical hook system with instakills? Or do only survivor perks circumvent things?
Good news for you! I think both the Myers instakill addons are massively unfair!
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978115#Comment_3978115
it’s okay. I’ll gladly let the devs toy with the numbers if it means that’s it’s engaging for both sides and fun. I understand not everyone that plays either side is a god and has trouble with some things. I always think there’s middle ground. I’ll wait to hold judgement for when the tweaks hit live, if it’s too much it can always be toyed around with. Most people are using them wrong, but I absolutely understand when people use them right how that can be a problem. Saw a comment where you said like 4/5 charges. I think that’s a good starting point to be worked from and go from there. I get it, I know there’s a sea of skill level difference on both sides. I also think any reasonable person that’s played the game for long enough would agree that unlimited charges is insane if for anything other than just pure annoyance factoring into that especially if you multiply it by four. Things should be fun and things should be useful, and I agree there’s lines.
….The 4/5 charges comment was saying the nerf would be mostly meaningless if the charges are that high, because most people aren't using the fog vials more than that on average.
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@MoZo said:
I’m so fed up with how they respond to community feedback. they just added a new survivor item, everyone uses the new item to test it out (like any other new item/perk/character that gets added), community complains because they hate adapting to new things, devs hear the loud noise of complainers instead of realizing that the fog vials are mid at best and medkits & toolboxes surpass them by miles and end up gutting them 2 weeks after they release. I guarantee after they do the nerf to add a limited amount of uses, fog vials will drop down to the THE worst item in the game for survivors and we’ll be back to syringes, BNP’s and styptics every game!
When killers have addons that overperform, BHVR's strategy is to nerf the overperforming addons.
So if survivors have items that overperform…. the solution should involve nerfing the overperforming items.
@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978083#Comment_3978083
yeah true, and if they do, the chests still exist. Hopefully the next chapter has a perk like pharmacy for fog vials. Adding that with limited uses should provide extra steps for people specifically wanting to meme with them because it is fun to use but I don't think unlimited uses are healthy at all.
The limited charges might be barely noticeable, if survivors can circumvent the charges with a "pharmacy for fog perk" (since that allows 2 fog vials per game). Or if survivors can circumvent the charges with Built To Last. Or if survivors can use Streetwise and find a +80% number of charges fog vial.
There are so many things that can go wrong, with a charge-based item, since the game doesn't really have any yet.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977918#Comment_3977918
Respectfully disagree on that. That's actually one of the ways I was trying to use it, as a kind of mini sabo action, or to get a gen that was almost done off a killers radar for a second. The balance in that is that auras were also concealed from survivors, which caused me some issues on the survivor end.
As killer, I usually already have a hook scoped out. So it's kinda easy to dodge if you stay aware.
But I think the whole idea with the vial was to get creative with the usage, which makes it fresh and different.
Fog Vials shouldn't be removing the auras of hooks. I don't think this is intended, and instead is an oversight. Fog Vials absolutely should not be a "mini sabo" that has near zero risk for the survivor.
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We still don't know if the charge nerf will actually do much.
For example, will Vigo's Fog Vial have 5 charges, and one of the add-ons will add an extra charge on top of that? Because I don't think most people are using this item over 6 times in the same match.
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Why are all the fog vial nerfs involving the visual component?
There have been so many complaints about fog vials, and the majority of the complaints involve the survivor audio deletion, or the fact it blocks so many things at the same time (audio + auras + scratchmarks). I've seen so very few complaints about the visual component, besides the iri addon.
As in, it's still going to be miserable to play against fog vials, if we still can't hear survivor audio in the fog.
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@Jacknalls_Paw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976810#Comment_3976810
Tracking issue, that's on you, I recommend improving your orientation sense.
When I play Killer, I have no problems and I almost never lose sight of the survivors, If I can do it, why can't you?Because the survivors in your games are using the fog vials incorrectly.
Survivors aren't supposed to use fog vials while the killer is in direct line of sight with them. They are supposed to use fog vials when the killer can't see them, so it becomes a guessing game of where they are, and a guessing game of where they are going.
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@SoGo said:
I feel like limiting charge amount would result in a solid minute of silent hill gameplay, because of how the cooldown prevents spamming.
My opinion is that the PTB to live changes were the last straw.
Items can have a limited amount of charges, and a cooldown between uses.
The killer power icon already has a clock timer functionality, where the icon itself shows a cooldown timer. Fog vial could have that to show the cooldown, and have a number on the icon itself to show how many charges are left.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976904#Comment_3976904
Quit as in stop queuing up entirely. The only thing that has made Survivor do that in the last 3 years is the go next prevention, ironically. Unless you disagree that Killers were queuing much less in year 6, to the point devs had to intervene with the meta shakeup.
Dead Hard wasn't exactly free either, though. It was probably the most unfair against Trapper and it could've been tuned down to make pallets more of a toss-up. But that also would've required changes to how Killer works with pallets too. Instead, they just heavily nerfed it twice. The only reason we still see it, in my opinion, is because it's one of the very few skill expression perks for Survivor and players really take to that element of it. MFT I don't even wanna get into.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976922#Comment_3976922
VHS is a bad example to be honest. The Teens were basically the exact same as DBD, just with more offensive capability, and the most popular Monster used an AOE that often undid the boring workbench system. Whoever was more determined made quick work of matches. A lot of hit and run on both sides as well, so not much interaction overall. That game didn't live or die on comms.
Other games in the genre implement comms so that the Killer role can either hear them or communicate with them as well. Friday The 13th is remembered fondly as one of the more entertaining of the bunch and it did that. I don't see why DBD couldn't do the same.
The alternative would be a voice wheel similar to what Resident Evil Outbreak or Left 4 Dead uses, which would take a ridiculous amount of time and resources to maintain.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976957#Comment_3976957
See above. It's not a personal remark, it's just the truth. Killer has to be handled a specific way or else the queue falls apart. It's true across all asymmetrical horror games.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977032#Comment_3977032
Maybe if you came at it with this attitude from the start, nobody would've assumed otherwise.
Friday the 13th was remembered for having massive queue time problems, server instability, ragequitters that instantly ended the game for everyone else, and trolls that would sabotage their own team.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976413#Comment_3976413
It doesn't matter how much you level a Survivor. If you're more invested in Killer, then that's where your bias will lie. The only way to get through that is to look at the game objectively.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976415#Comment_3976415
I don't think it would. We've convinced ourselves that comms would somehow be terrible for DBD, but it's the standard for any PVP game like this. It's an important part of teamwork that's missing and that's why players do it externally.
To be totally fair too, Killers are more fragile than Survivors. I don't mean that in a snotty way, but if I've noticed anything in the last 3 years, it's that Survivors will continue to queue up for the worst experiences while Killer won't. I'm not really sure how to make the game more balanced while avoiding that loss in the process.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976417#Comment_3976417
And even with Dead Hard, they just pulled a 180. Survivors could use it to win a palette race, so they nerf it and make it so Killers can win the palette race instead with a lunge. It's like they're allergic to a 50/50 chance when it comes to changes.
Comms are a standard for symmetrical PvP games, where both sides of the game can get equal benefits from them.
Comms in asymmetrical PvP games, help create an environment that is so unfun for killers, that the survivor queue times get so long that the game dies.
Remember that VHS wanted to fix all of the survivor “unfairness”. And they did! But it turns out that if you make one side of the game “completely fair”, it’s so unfun for the other side of the game, that incredibly massive queue time problems happen. And whenever killers complained the game was unfun, the devs told them to “deal with it”, because survivor fairness was more important.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976781#Comment_3976781
You don't want them to block auras, sound, or scratch marks? So they'll only create an ambient mist for survivors to get downed in? As it is, they only seem to block the marks around the center point, which would be the equivalent of a second or two. It's also not as though the killers power is blocked the whole match. It's for a matter of seconds. In that way, it's like a perk.
You realize they also block auras for survivors too right? Which makes them an occasional hindrance to my own survivor builds. If I'm using Emapthy and I'm sprinting over to take a protection hit for someone when they pop the vial, I can no longer find them.
They shouldn’t be blocking 3 entire killer tracking methods.
If they want to block scratchmarks, and have a partial visual obscuring effect (that doesn’t block line of sight), that’s fine.
But having a partial visual obscuring effect, AND blocks scratchmarks, AND blocks survivor noises, AND blocks auras, is way too much.
And no, I don’t care if it blocks auras on both sides.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976767#Comment_3976767
There's a whole paragraph up there about me trying to use them practically. It's possible to have fun AND do well.
Tell me your nerf idea though.
Fog vials shouldn’t block an audio at all.
Arguably they shouldn’t block auras either. But these are an unlimited use item, and should be balanced as an unlimited use item. Completely shutting off 3 entire killer tracking method, is not well balanced for an unlimited use item.
Dance With Me is unlimited, and the entire thing blocks scratchmarks for 3 seconds. That is how unlimited use balancing works.
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@cogsturning said:
There's been a lot of initial complaints about fog vials. I'm not talking about the accessibility issues, which are a seperate matter. I'm talking about people who think they're annoying or disengaging.
So far, I've found them to be mostly useless. As killer, I still maintain chase. It's easy to see someone who panic-pops it in your face. The only chase I've lost so far was when a team rushed in to cover a teammate, and that's a valid use of the item and doesnt make me mad. But, so far, that's the exception and not the rule.
As survivor, I've been experimenting with them. I've tried to cut off my own chases and other people's. I've tried to set it off as the killer picks someone up to obscure hooks. I've tried to conceal auras while healing or working on gens. But nothing has really worked. I've yet to really find a good use for them as a soloq item.
But my God do I love them. Hear me out.
I switched from playing only killer to playing both because I thought survivor was more light-hearted and less intense, but ever since the introduction of the last-kill mori, I've had a miserable time. Slugging and tunneling have become constant. Sweaty playing is required. Playfulness and mercy from killers disappeared. I stopped being silly, took of my meme perks, and became a gen jockey, using a build that tore through gens, often doing two or three just by myself in every match.
But now there are fog vials. Stupid, silly fog vials. I love that there's a much needed new element. I love the chaos. I love the uncorking sound. And I love putting Scene Partner back on and being a clown again.
I was blessed with a lobby yesterday with two other fog vial users with silly names and knew I'd found my people. One died, but, thanks to the cleverly comical antics of the other when I was about to go on death hook, the match's energy did a total 180 and we had a fun time with the killer. I can not tell you how refreshing it was after losing like seven matches in a row. Those playful matches are such a breath of fresh air after grueling ones, and they have become so scarce. But even if fog vials have no other great use, they can bring back some of the silliness, and that's enough for me.
If you only care about using fog vials for silly comical fun, then it’s fine to nerf them.
Fog vials will still be able to have playful antics after they are nerfed.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I appreciate the different perspectives in here! If you don't mind me interjecting to ask two questions (since I'd love to share this feedback with the team):
- What is one change that would increase your enjoyment of the Map item rework?
- What about for the Key item rework?
I wish there was an official BHVR statement, regarding if it was intended for people to get 20-40 uses out of the old maps or keys.
Because I was definitely getting 20-40 uses of blood amber with the old keys. And people are definitely wanting that back in the game. But I’ve never seen an official statement if the charge system is happening because item tapping is unintended.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976304#Comment_3976304
You're still missing what I'm saying. It's not you personally taking responsibility. It's the role itself from a game perspective. The point of equity in a game like this is that you have the (individually) stronger role overseeing the entire trial and managing resources while you have the (individually) weaker role working as a team to piece the puzzle together. In the end, they come together in the middle to be of equal strength.
The issue is that DBD has strayed from that formula entirely. Teamwork is weak unless it's coordinated outside of the trial or unless the players are lucky and have good synergy. The power role has catchup mechanics that can be utilized before the trial is even tilted out of their favor. The game is balanced via the end result and not what needs to change from moment to moment. And that's before you factor in the matchmaking that fails players more often than not.
If fairness were the objective, both sides would have strong enough catchups to make a dent; perks would act more like classes and/or passive buffs; objectives would require dynamic solutions; there would be multiple ways to progress the trial; teamwork would be a priority (including comms and ways to help the team while incapacitated); Killer and Survivor would interact in more interesting and fun ways; 2v8 might be the standard; and a rotating queue, where players are picked for Survivor or Killer on a roulette, would possibly have to be implemented.
But a game like that would unfortunately fail as long as players are unwilling to adjust along with it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976320#Comment_3976320
That might've been true once upon a time, but it isn't anymore. Survivor is objectively meant to have more breathing room than Killer. That is the point of how the game works as an equitable asymmetrical game. Take a look at Survivor objectives as well—they're meant to do other things than be in chases or work on gens. But the way the game has been balanced punishes them for not focusing almost exclusively on those two aspects of play. And even chases have been buffed for Killer to ensure that escaping them isn't much of a tossup anymore.
As long as Killer is willing to exert control very early on, they can get all of the room to breathe that they want or need. When you go up against a confident team that makes risky plays and actually succeeds? That is your 40% loss coming into play. Now imagine the opposite for Survivor. The Killer that slugs everyone at 4 gens and forces a Surrender is their 60%.
Giving all survivors comms would kill the game, because a giant percentage of the killers wouldn't put up with that.
BHVR has to forbid the killer from seeing if they are playing against a SWF, because they know a lot of killers would dodge them. Likewise, giving all survivors basekit comms would do the same thing, where a lot of killers just wouldn't play.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976303#Comment_3976303
An add-on is a choice. The key itself is safe. Toolboxes are safe if you just use them for gens. I can go stand in a corner of the map and open a vial and the giant cloud of billowing fog will broadcast my location to the killer. The reward/risk is a little bigger there.
The argument I've mostly seen is to make them limited in use. If that's the case, they probably need a buff because they're not stellar. If they get buffed, they might end up like Void Crystals, which were insane. If they get nerfed, they're utterly useless.
A 10-12 meter radius circle isn't really "broadcasting the location", especially if the survivor is using a fog vial specifically because the killer knows the survivor is somewhere in that general area. And it's even safer in indoor maps, where the fog vial might not even be visible from far away. Again, you keep giving the worst case scenarios for fog vials, which isn't fair.
Also, having a risk/reward doesn't mean something should be immune to nerfs. NOED is a hex totem, and therefore has a risk/reward, but it still got nerfed.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976288#Comment_3976288
I'm saying there's risk/reward built into them, like flashlights, and unlike other items, which are just reward. And when I actually see this item that's been around for literally days used in an impressive way more than once I'll let you know. My point is the drama around them doesn't match their current efficiency of use.
Toolboxes have a risk/reward, because a survivor can mess up a hook sabotage and end up getting hit into the dying state. And keys have a risk/reward when blood amber is being used.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976267#Comment_3976267
I did mention flashlights being used poorly, in the comment before that one.
It's a bad argument to say that fog vials are fine, because they work poorly when they are used poorly.
You should be commenting on how fog vials work when used well. And the words "so they don't think" or "they go in the most obvious direction" don't apply to survivors using fog vials well.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976192#Comment_3976192
Because the margin for error is massive, yes, and because the item isn't even in the top half tier for useful items. Four people can bring flashlights and chain blind the killer endlessly every time they make a move. They can also bring Built to Last, which would make the flashlight almost endless in the right hands. What's the difference? It's that the flashlight is way better.
So far they've helped me more as killer than hurt. People think they have a security blanket when they release them so they don't think, and they go in the most obvious direction, usually running straight or taking a right. I've lost a total of one chase because of them, and that's because the other three people ran in to cause chaos. It was a good play, but it won't be the common one. Vials are such a none issue that I'm amazed how much people are upset about them (in a normal context, not an accessibilty one.) I barely even see them being used, and it seems p100s are getting basically none in their bloodwebs.
Imagine if the medkit was a newly introduced item. "No fair! You should bring a self-heal perk for that." Any little change and people flip out. These haven't even had time to find their place in the game yet.
Are you really comparing survivors that use flashlights really well, to survivors that use fog vials really poorly? How is that fair?
If you're going to have an example where the fog vials are being used poorly, then you should also be using an example where the flashlights are being used poorly. Like, saying flashlights help killers more than hurt killers, because the flashlight user is wasting time that could have been spent repairing generators, and the flashlight user is always failing the flashlight saves.
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@Nazzzak said:
I think the issue with limiting their usage, as alot of people seem to be wanting, is that they're not impactful enough to bother bringing in that case. Of course they're inconvenient to go against, but I'm pretty sure that's the point. The devs would likely buff them considerably if they cut down on how often they can be used, and as someone who actually has minimal issue going against them currently, I'd hate to see that.
The Fog Vials should by an unlimited use item, but they should also be balanced as an unlimited use item.
Because right now, they are balanced as if they were a single use item. An unlimited use item shouldn't be blocking audio at all. And arguably they shouldn't be blocking auras either.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975743#Comment_3975743
That's basically what the OP is suggesting, other than that he would also change the target kill rate.
You don't think that's a problem?
You think survivors are going to be fine, if their team as a whole loses a lot more games?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975698#Comment_3975698
Noed is just pathetic but I have no big issues with it because it's 1) usually used by awful players who can be easily outdone and 2) I have the sense to not panic and go find the totem and cleanse it, if I wasn't the one on the receiving end and 3) nothing gives me more satisfaction than cleansing a Noed totem.
I'm talking about low skill/new players. I don't know why that part isn't coming through. Low skill killers have more advantages than equivalent low skill survivors. That's it, that's the whole point. Low skill survivors can't smell things like Blood Warden and Noed coming. They dont have the sense to avoid them. They don't know not to stand by the gate during No Way Out. But a killer with an equally bad understanding of the game can get a 4k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975700#Comment_3975700
Show me where OP said games should be "forced" to be at 2k. They said 2k to 3k is a better balanced match and the game should work towards that in its mechanics instead of an overwhelming amount of one-sided stomps. A suggestion to improve tha one-sidedness? Better matchmaking, better tutorials, and a training wheel period where new players exclusively face one another with crutch perks like Noed (and a survivor equivalent) found exclusively within that training ground. Once you hit whatever threshold, be it time based or accomplishment based, you can leave the kiddie pool and swim in the deep end.
You realize that if there are more 2k to 3k games, but the same kill rate, that the survivor team as a whole needs to lose more games, right?
Because the survivor team as a whole, wins on a 0k to 1k. So if the game is supposed to have less of those games, then it needs to have less games where the survivor team wins as a whole.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975686#Comment_3975686
As I mentioned, the killer can slug second to last person to avoid hatch spawn. I rarely see chances at the hatch these days.
And thus, everything loops back to the tunnel/slug/camp arguments.
This forum thread is saying the game should force most games to be a 2k.
How do you think the game could force less 0k and less 1k situations? I claim it would need to dramatically increase the number of deserved kills. If you have a different solution, please let me know.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975580#Comment_3975580
It's already easy for killers to get undeseved kills though, and undeserved 4ks. I've had endless matches where a killer gets little to no hooks, can't chase, can't land basic attacks and then their Noed kicks in and they get some skill-free downs.
On the flip side, there's no equivalent of this for survivors. Killers get to choose if the hatch even spawns. They just slug the second to last person and keep the game going until they get both downs.
If the game is going to have less 0k and 1k situations, then the "undeserved kills" need to be dramatically increased.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975646#Comment_3975646
You're either missing the point or avoiding it. Evasion and chase-winning don't equal victory, and flashlights require practice and skill. "Undeserved" is the key word.
Noed is an example of a crutch perk for low-skill killers to get underserved downs/kills/wins. What is the low-skill survivor equivalent of Noed for endgame? What cheat card does the game give a survivor whose straight garbage so they can pull off an undeserved victory?
Literally hatch. The survivors can repair 0 generators, and a survivor can still get an undeserved escape. It doesn't raise their MMR, but it's still a free escape.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975580#Comment_3975580
No I am asking for the game to be designed where 2k is the most likely outcome and not 4k or 0k.
Look at all of the sports in the world. Look at all of the other popular PvP games in the world.
Do you know what causes people to get bored? Too many draw games. That is what you're asking for. Most people aren't going to want to play in a game where there are too many draw games. It's boring. People want a clear winner.
For example, do you think football would still be popular if most the games were draw games? Do you think Counterstrike would still be popular if most the games were draw games?
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975530#Comment_3975530
I'm saying that having such a high percentage of 4k games isn't fun for anyone. It's not fun for survivors for things to snowball out of control in the killer's favor early on with no hope of a comeback, and personally it's not fun as killer either when you know the survivors don't stand a chance and you have to "go easy" on them for the game to not be a stomp. It's extremely bad game design.
You're basically asking for killers to have a "reverse hatch" mechanic, where they can get a free kill even if they didn't deserve it.
Even though the majority of players is fine with survivors getting free escapes they didn't deserve, they will never accept the killer being able to get a undeserved free kill.