Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003855#Comment_4003855
I think sfws use it more, but I don’t find hook denial main issue of me losing. I can’t dodge teams only when they play in pub scream or comp manner - just loop good, play safe and split up.
I literally had 3 games in a row two days ago where so called sfws tried sabo, boil over and background player. They all died on 5-3 gens or were 4 slugged within few minutes. Such sfws suffer from lack of skill by ignoring main objective or excessive altruism and it kills them. It’s extremely annoying so, but really few people properly use such opportunities.
Yet every SFW I played against and lost were splitting up and bodyblocking/baiting if needed. I do it myself when play SFW and it’s much more oppressive because u just abuse your quantity superiority. That’s where imbalance of assym genre calls for me. It’s a hook denial u can’t adjust by perk nerfs. Here is the main point. Perks always works either as crutches , either counterplay, and simply nerfing them won’t fix itWe need remove this silly “nerfs” “punishments” “anti system” terms from our dictionary. I am honestly tired from people instead of incentivising/encouraging good play demand of blind nerfs of your opponents. It became so silly when it reaches boiling point where we already are
Feels like people just don’t want to compete and wait for other side be handicapped just “but, but! imaging worst scenario over as arguement”
The point is SWFs can be nerfed.
You don’t like the solutions, but they would nerf SWFs. Yes, it would be really difficult to nerf SWF efficiency, which is why the reasonable solution would involve nerfing other things SWFs do better.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003849#Comment_4003849
Maybe we just have different experience encountering different SFWs. On CIS and around region the most aggressive play u can see doesn’t include uncounterable hook denial. Second chances perks hit more than some sfw one
Do you think SWFs use hook denial more than solo q?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003840#Comment_4003840
I can’t imagine nerf of such perks unfortunately, because many people will start to complain on “fun” and teamplay factor. Something like straight compensation of tunneling redundancy instead of placebo nerfed base kits already makes such people extremely sensitive if judging by posts above, so idk how u can explain people u can't deny hook by sabo or some head-on
What about chain of takin hits? U can’t forbid SFW to cover their teammate by not throwing their bodies for example. It's not related to perks. And I’m pretty sure the actual problem of sfw is their efficiency. I never struggles as killer too much against sfw with “hook denial”. Just splitting is already enough to completely change tone of the match
Nerfing the perks is fine. A lot of them are rarely used in solo q anyway.
And hook denial absolutely is used way more in SWFs, and is the easiest way to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF. And when the anti-slugging mechanics comes back, this is the perfect way to make sure slugging is actually fair for both sides. Killers should not be punished for slugging, if the survivors forced the killer to slug. So if any meaningful anti-slugging changes are going to be added to the game, then there should be changes to ensure the killer could have hooked the survivor instead of slugging.
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- Nerf perks that perform way better with voice comms than they do in solo q.
- Nerf hook denial, since SWFs do that way more often than solo q.
The point is, it's completely fine if a change nerfs SWF heavily, and only nerfs solo q bit a little, because the overall change is bridging the gap between solo q and SWF.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003683#Comment_4003683
And… why? It's no better than justifying extreme weakness of some killers by existing S tier ones. Why not trying at least provide some actual interaction between solo beside 2 gestures? U can’t nerf sfw without touching solo, so u can’t get rid of this unfair tool. But why other part should be limited then?
As a killer I don't have fun in winning because team just were limited by lack of communication between them…
There are changes BHVR could make, that would nerf SWFs way more than they would solo q.
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@tes said:
I mention above about no need in voice comms. But the alternative.
It doesn't mean u should forget solo need for communicate. Moreover, if u are highly aware about such gap, u have to provide compensation for solo survivors at the same time not affecting sfw, which I already mentioned in the post
But solo q got heavily neglected in these terms. And instead of fixing this, they created even more crutches in ptb, not fixing actual issue
Voice comms are more unfair to killers than they are to solo q survivors.
And no, we don’t need to compensate solo q just because some other survivors use voice comms.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003646#Comment_4003646
If u can’t stop something, shouldn't u try to play around it for balancing? Instead of fighting with it or just giving it as “welp, we can’t do anything about it so here u are”
BHVR stated multiple times they don’t want basekit voice comms, or for the game to be balanced around them.
The percentage of games where all 4 people are using voice comms, is really low. Also, if this game was balanced around voice comms, then it would punish players that don’t use voice comms (or have teammates that don’t use voice comms).
I see this all the time in other PvP games, where a team is in a severe disadvantage if someone chooses to not use voice comms.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003623#Comment_4003623
So they created comms imbalance consciously...
Well. Another day of another great balance in this great game
Well, that's not what the video said either.
The video basically said they are EXPECTING people will use voice comms, because they can't stop people from using voice comms.
The video also heavily implies they don't INTEND for people to use voice comms, because it breaks the horror aspect.
Expecting and Intending, are two massively different words. Expecting means they know it's going to happen. Intending means they want it happen.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003423#Comment_4003423
That's a different one there wasn't enough time to test it, 90 seconds on the ground is a long time that's like half your slug timer before you die. Most people seemed to like auto-recover but not basekit tenacity, having to hold M1 is pointless it's more a QoL feature than a buff, again they could have tweaked it without canceling everything
Most people that didn't like the PTB, hated the basekit infinite unbreakable way more than they hated basekit tenacity.
It's was absolutely ridiculous being told that it's a major problem if killers want to slug, but 100% acceptable if survivors want to force the killer to slug. BHVR should make up their minds. Is slugging bad, or is it not bad? Because if excessive slugging is bad, then it should be fixed on both sides of the game.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
You can't get any data after only 1 day of PTB, people aren't even playing seriously they're testing new perks and killer, they want to be chased by new killer/ want to see new mori, people can DC freely so doing gens feels pointless
most of the complaints were about anti tunnel yet the devs scrapped everything without even trying, why not keep anti slug and let players actually test it ? No it wasn't about data, they panicked and reversed everything to appease streamers and reddit
People already tested the bad anti-slugging TWICE before this update.
We had an entire finisher-Mori PTB, with an anti-slugging solution that got massive amounts of negative feedback
We had a chaos shuffle with an anti-slugging solution that was so hated that the entire event got cancelled.
And now we had another PTB with basekit unbreakable, that people STILL didn't like. So yes, people did test this for way longer than a few days. We already know exactly how much we hate the idea of infinite basekit Unbreakable.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003142#Comment_4003142
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003151#Comment_4003151
I readily admit that petty people exist.
But just because some people are, doesn't mean that's why everyone is doing it. You have nothing but speculation for the larger picture as to why people have wanted to quit out. Claiming that everyone is petty is, at best, an oversimplification, and , at worst, just trying to dismiss any actual issues that could be improved upon. (Hint: most of the time it's the second one)
Just like some people will slug to bleedout for no other reason than a power trip or spite, but that doesn't mean that everyone slugging is doing it for those reasons.
And any time people ask to have the "unfun" parts of the game actually addressed, they get dismissed or condescended… just like these responses.
Maybe I should just start telling people who didn't like the PTB that
best thing to do is tell people, this is the game, play or dont its your choice but if you decide to play then play it. Everyone knows the flaws the game has, if people are not happy with it then just dont play.
but that seems counter productive to actually making positive change.
"Unfun" is not a valid reason to ragequit. And if someone ragequits for that reason, they deserve to be punished.
"Unfun" is a petty reason to ragequit. And the actual issues that need to be addressed, are the people trying to exploit loopholes in Go Next, because they deserve punishments if they ragequit.
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@Raccoon said:
Do you think that the cancelled PTB was actually cancelled due to Killer outrage per the current 'theories,' or do you think that the developers looked at the results they had and saw that the system was a failure and did not align with their current goals?
I see a lot of people complaining about Killer outrage in a lot of topics, but no one ever seems to consider any of the evidence that points towards the system being a failure in its current iteration (ie being reworked by the devs).
What do YOU think?
To be fair, a lot of the system didn't actually work as intended.
The basekit BBQ was intended to give the killers a new target to chase, but it very often showed 0 survivors. And sometimes it showed 1 survivor, that was so far away that a low mobility killer wouldn't even get halfway there before the aura reading ran out.
2v8 was able to have a lot of fast paced action, because the reveal mechanic actually reliably worked, so it was often showing killers new targets to chase. This whole concept completely fell apart in this PTB, because the reveal mechanic was absolute garbage.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo_gkU_HnQI@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003053#Comment_4003053
My dated memory of this, was it only "yanked" the killer after the hit check. But my personal experience was, that my weapon got missaligned with objects. The classicsurvivor vaults a window, I thought, it should be a clear it, but I got a bonk on the windowframe. So still have issue wirh it being called "auto-aim", when in my experience it rarely benefits me.
This video is proof that Aim Dressing works this way. The giant thing on the left side of the screen, is recording my keyboard and mouse inputs.
You can clearly see my camera getting yanked, and my lunge attack forcibly being changed to a short M1 attack, but the survivor doesn't get hit.
This can only happen if Aim Dressing forcibly changes a killer's attack BEFORE hit validation.
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@UnicornMedal said:
If you DC now, it doesn't count down passively anymore. You have to have the client running and wait for it to count down. In return, you get 1 free DC every 20 trials. Horrible change (in my opinion).
That's not what Go Next does.
Go Next remembers the last 20 games. And if a survivor ragequits, it remembers that game until 20 more games have happened.
So, for example, let's say a survivor ragequit 20 games in a row. If they successfully complete their next 20 games, then their DC penalty will be at 0, because they replaced all their penalty games with successfully completed games. Also, in this scenario, each of the successfully completed games, reduced their penalty points by 1, because each successfully completed game replaced a previous ragequit game.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002902#Comment_4002902
Which is basically not "auti aim", because true auto-aim would HELP me hit my target, which this is not. So why call it auto-aim?
If the killer's attack is changed before hit validation, then it's auto-aim. If the killer's attack is changed after hit validation, then it's aim dressing.
Also, "aim dressing" can technically auto-aim an attack, because it is disconnected from hit validation. For example, if a survivor is next to the killer, and slightly too far right for a short M1 attack to hit, the proximity checks from "aim dressing" might think the survivor is "close enough", and yank the killer's camera to the right, and then short M1 attack. And since "aim dressing" yanked the camera to the right, the short M1 attack hits.
The basic idea is because the proximity checks are disconnected from hit validation, "aim dressing" can both steal attacks from the killer, and give attacks to the killer.
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@Wolf65 said:
There is an auto-aim in the game? Isn't that an urban legend?
This game functionally has auto-aim, but BHVR wants to call it aim dressing, even though that is an invalid word choice.
“Aim dressing” forcibly changes killer attacks before hit validation, which is exactly what an auto aim mechanic does.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
I don't know. I'm honestly just confused about the auto aim situation in DbD because every time a developer comments on it they give a convoluted explanation of how it's not auto aim — it's aim dressing. Which, to me, sounds like the exact same thing but apparently there's an important enough distinction between the two to warrant correcting the language.
Semantics aside, all I know is that I semi-regularly get robbed of hits because the game snaps my camera in the wrong direction or turns my lunge attacks into quick attacks, and I really wish it wouldn't do either. But they seem incredibly reluctant to change it for some reason.
If we really want to argue semantics, it’s functionally an auto-aim system, because it changes a killer’s attack before hit validation.
As in, BHVR is blatantly using the wrong word choices when they call it aim dressing. In order for it to be aim dressing, it would need to change a killer’s attack after hit validation.
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Does it do this while you are on hook, even when there isn't a light source (i.e. lantern) on the screen?
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002740#Comment_4002740
The stat tracker only counts normal 1v4 games as far as I know.
Limited time modes (like 2v8, Chaos Shuffle etc.), or event game modes are not tracked.The official stat tracker is not counting all of the kills in 1v4 games
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002710#Comment_4002710
The milestones only count completed/progressed challenges. If you DC, it doesn't count anything. I'm not sure if Killer DCs count toward escapes.
If I remember correctly, back when I tested it, the game wasn't counting all survivor deaths as kills. For example, I think if someone was slugged and bled out, it didn't count as a kill, even though the survivor died.
I think there was also weirdness happening with killer abandons, in both scenarios.
But it has been a long time since I tested this. I only know the survivor stats are still broken, because that was recent testing.
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002717#Comment_4002717
i remember everyone having an issue with inaccurate hours played but that was later revealed to be hours active in a match not hours in game. i usually sit at around 80 to 90% kill rate with myers. i know im not getting higher than that so im not sure how the killer stats could possibly be less than the actual stat. im certainly not getting 95 to 100% kill rate. unless its only inaccurate for some people? for me it seems to add up anyway, both survivor and killer.
I don't ever DC, so I'm not sure if that affects the total number of games milestone.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002698#Comment_4002698
so there is evidence to suggest survivor discrepancy although it would depend on when the screenshots were taken. For example there could be an overlap between the start of the milestones and the 30 days…. if milestones started 20 days ago from the screenshot then the stats page would account for all the milestones and the previous days up to 30 days. Play 10 matches a day for 7 days would be 70 matches but there may be more matches taken into account the other weeks in the 30 days. assuming the stats and milestones are only accounting for the 66 matches in a 30 day period, is there evidence to suggest killer stats are deflated?
The killer stats being deflated is very awkward to prove. I can only compare stats for one side of the game per rift. As in, I was only able to get my true escape rate, because I played zero killer games in that timeframe.
In order to show killer stats are deflated, I would need to screenshot my official stats, then record a game with an problematic scenario and prove it was recorded after the screenshot, then screenshot my official stats after they update, and prove that was the only game I played, and that it's counting the number of kills incorrectly.
I did this when the stat tracker was first released, but it was with screenshots that aren't really good evidence for anyone besides myself. And it didn't look like anyone cared, so I never redid the experiments.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002649#Comment_4002649
is there evidence of this discrepancy? not saying your lying or anything but you have to see how that could be perceived as survivor bias claiming their stats are higher than they actually are but the killers stats are lower than they actually are to fit their argument that killers are op and survivors cant escape.
The above two screenshots were taken on the same day. One screenshot is my overall average survivor escape rate for the last 30 days. The other screenshot is my milestone quests.
The official dbd stat tracker had me at an overall 68.75% escape rate, but my actual in-games stats were 34 escapes in 66 games = 51% escape rate.
And yes, I get it that they aren't always counting the same things, but a 17% difference in escape rates, is absolutely ridiculous.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002641#Comment_4002641
I absolutely hate that the game will turn my lunge attack into an M1 if I'm too close to the survivor. I have to back away from generators if I want a hit instead of a forced grab, and even then I'm not great at judging the distance and will sometimes have my lunge turned into an M1 and thus an attempted grab despite having backed away. When I tell the game I want to lunge, it should lunge, I don't care how close I am, it's my decision. ugh. I hate the way some mechanics in this game function.
Anyway, from what I remember (and unfortunately I don't have a source, so I'm going off memory and might be wrong), hits are validated twice: first the cone in front of the killer is checked to see if the survivor's hit box is in it (first validation), then the killer's camera is yanked, and then the hit is validated a second time. The killer's camera being yanked is the aim dressing, which only happens after the hit was validated the first time. If the killer wasn't going to get the hit, the aim dressing doesn't happen. That second validation is where losing the hit can occur.
If anyone has a source that verifies or corrects that, I'd much appreciate it. I hate going off fallible memory for things like this.
Step 1: Aim dressing makes proximity checks, to see if the killer is "too close" to a survivor, and is facing them enough
Step 2: If the proximity check succeeds, then Aim Dressing will yank the killer's camera if it's not "centered enough" on the survivor. And Aim Dressing will force the lunge attack to turn into a short M1 attack
Step 3: The game makes a hit validation check. This hit validation check might fail, specifically because of what Aim Dressing did in Step 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo_gkU_HnQIThis video is proof that Aim Dressing works this way. The giant thing on the left side of the screen, is recording my keyboard and mouse inputs.
You can clearly see my camera getting yanked, and my lunge attack forcibly being changed to a short M1 attack, but the survivor doesn't get hit.
This can only happen if Aim Dressing forcibly changes a killer's attack BEFORE hit validation.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002636#Comment_4002636
it seems pretty accurate to me, i escape more than i dont which means i have over 50% escape rate. it would work the other way round too. killers with 60% kill rate could be getting 10% to 15% higher than what the actual kill rate is. Obviously stats tracker isnt 100% fool proof, there are times where the killer quits or lets people escape, or survivors go next or dc or even cheaters impact the match for everyone. But as a general basis, my escape rate and kill rates seem to add up correctly based on the outcomes of the matches. As killer i get 3k or 4k pretty often and it reflects in my kill rate. As survivor i escape more than i dont which reflects in my escape rate.
Yes. The survivor escape rates are sometimes inflated, and the killer kill rates are sometimes deflated.
And it’s sad, because I waited so long for an official stat tracker, but it has never worked correctly.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456775/why-isnt-auto-aim-a-toggle-feature-yet
never helped
Aim dressing in DbD will never help killers. It makes hits look nicer, which is basically something only survivors will care about. Killers don't care how it looks, they just want their hits to connect. Every killer player would disable aim dressing if it were an option. That's why it's not an option, because aim dressing isn't for killers: aim dressing hurts killers so the game looks nicer for survivors.
To back up what I'm saying a bit, here's a post from a dev:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XT8MC0T2JY8X/aim-dressing.png
As the dev says, auto aim gives you a hit you otherwise would not have gotten. Aim dressing doesn't do that, but it can cause a hit that should have connected to miss. There is no reason any killer ever would have it enabled.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002571#Comment_4002571
far far outweigh the hits it gifts you that probably should miss
The situation is worse than you realize. Read my post/dev quote: DbD doesn't gift you hits you should miss. Aim dressing only takes away hits you otherwise would have gotten.
You are interpreting the dev incorrectly. Aim dressing can give killers hits they otherwise would not have gotten, but the killer has to aim their camera correctly for this to happen.
This is because a killer can hold the lunge button, and Aim Dressing will automatically replace the lunge with a short M1 attack, when the survivor is within range of the M1 attack. This means the killer doesn’t need to manually let go of the lunge button when they want the actual weapon swing to happen, and they can do this because aim dressing exists.
And the majority of the time, this works correctly, but it can cause aim dressing to steal hits from the killer, because it’s forcibly altering killer attacks before hit validation occurs.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002320#Comment_4002320
Did they ever fix the stats counting survivors abandoning at the end of matches as "escapes"? Because if they haven't, these stats are worthless or would at least skew escape rates much higher.
The official stats tracker still isn’t calculating escape rates correctly, and they can easily be 10% to 15% higher than what a person’s actual escape rate is.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
It's just a core feature of how lunges work. If it didn't exist then you'd slide off the Survivors when lunging instead of hitting them.
The problem with aim dressing is that it forcibly changes a killer’s attack before hit validation occurs.
The concept of aim dressing is really great. But it really should be doing hit validation BEFORE it forcibly yanks a killer’s camera or forcibly turns a lunge into a short M1 attack. -
@cogsturning said:
You're not gonna play the role that currently remains unaffected and benefited from the delay?
This has to be satire.
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@runningguy said:
while i know the ptb was a colossal failure but has hinted at things to come, i wouldnt stop playing killer until the changes have actually happened. look at the anti hiding AFK crows, still waiting on them with no sign at all they will ever be implemented after survivors complained. Same could happen with the changes to killer, could be months or years…its been months so far regarding the AFK crows.
This is the THIRD TIME we got a patch with anti-slugging, that was so horrible that it got delayed…
1st patch was the PTB with the basekit Unbreakable and the special finisher mori
2nd patch was the chaos shuffle, with the anti-slugging solution that was so bad that the entire event got cancelled
3rd patch was this PTB, with anti-slugging, anti-tunneling, and anti-camping
Three strikes sounds like a reasonable time to be completely skeptical that future phase 2 patch will actually be fair for killers. -
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002207#Comment_4002207
Wouldn't it take years of dedicated coding to solve each and every specific possible problem scenario? Especially when more would pop up due to more content being added?
There are only a few scenarios that are actually extreme enough to affect survivors being able to do meaningful interactions for long periods of time.
Most the scenarios involve hex totems, survivor resources (i.e. generators or exit gate switches) being blocked, or killers slugging for the 4k.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002165#Comment_4002165
The reason AFK crows were nerfed was because they punished normal Survivor gameplay, just like the tunneling and slugging reduction punished normal Killer gameplay.
For example, did we need to search the entire map to cleanse Devour Hope? Get AFK crows. And what about when No Way Out had maximum stacks? There's nothing to do in that scenario but hide and wait it out. And yet we'd get AFK crows.
And the reasonable solution would have been to address the specific problem scenarios, instead of nerfing the entire AFK crow system.
For example, survivors don't need to have a massive grace period to find and cleanse totems, if the killer doesn't have any hex perks.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001992#Comment_4001992
This may be a hot take, but I think it's because
NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT BULLY SQUADS.
How is this issue supposed to be on BHVR's radar when the only times this issue gets brought up is in response to survivor QoL?
Seriously, there's eight threads about 'gens too fast' for every instance that someone, anywhere, goes 'what about bully squads then?'.
BHVR listens to killers, but if the killers don't talk about it, they're not going to intuit what you have problems with. Go make a stink about bully squads if you want them addressed, don't just sit on it until you can use it as some 'us vs them' gotcha.
EDIT: Actually, double rant!
The reason the conversation is hardly ever about how the game should be less frustrating for killers is because when that topic gets brought up, it generally got resolved fairly quickly. When killers complained about not being able to hit-and-run, self-healing got nerfed. When killers complained about BNPs, they got nerfed. When killers complained about stealth, Distortion got axed.
It's hard to keep a sustained conversation about your issues when your issues get fixed all the time.
The reason we've been talking about survivor frustrations for 9 years is because, in those 9 years, nothing has been done to fix them.
When killers complained about excessive hiding, BHVR created a hiding prevention update, but survivors complained about it so much that the AFK crows got nerfed into uselessness. And the AFK crows are STILL useless, even though it has been months since that update happened.
People seem to forget that BHVR actually did consider excessive hiding to be problematic survivor behavior, and it was actually supposed to be addressed in phase 1.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002032#Comment_4002032
But that's just a symptom.
The issue is the mismatch in skill. Similar skill opponents prevents this from happening.
That prevention is never going to happen, because it has been stated multiple times that matchmaking is ok with sacrificing quality for time.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002013#Comment_4002013
I mean, you can use tunneling for the same purpose. Bully squads are rarer, but there's genuinely not too much you can do. They are only really effective when there's a massive disparity in skill between the sides. You can fix the matchmaker, but that's really it. Its just a poor sap being thrown to the wolves, but the wolves decide they want to mess with the poor dude.
But let's be clear. If you use in-game mechanics to specifically ruining other people's fun, you're an #########, full stop.
Actually, there is something that can be done about bully squads. BHVR can make it more difficult to do excessive hook denial. And BHVR can make it more difficult to do excessive blinding and excessive stunning.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002013#Comment_4002013
And getting slingshotted back to the lobby two minutes in becuase someone decided to target the first unfortuante person they saw doesn't ruin the fun of others? Are we caring about other people's fun or aren't we? Because if we do, then tunneling is bad.
And if winning makes all things right with the world, then the bully squad will win when the killer ragequits. So I guess it's a winning strategy too.
I'm saying we should either care about both sides, or no sides.
There shouldn't be this "one side's fun is way more important than the other side's fun"
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001992#Comment_4001992
Because tunneling is incredibly common and genuine bully squads aren't. People toss the term around the same way they do with "gen rushing." SWF with skills aren't a bully squad. I can't remember the last time I even saw an actual bully squad. Yet I was tunneled yesterday. And the day before that. And the day before that.
That doesn't make sense. Bully squads are even more unacceptable than tunneling, because they literally revolve their gameplay around ruining the fun of the other side.
Tunneling is an actual game strategy that can help killers win games, so there is an actual valid reason for killers to tunnel.
There are zero valid reasons for bully squads to exist.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001891#Comment_4001891
Sorry, but no. Reading that note for what it is does not mean that existing pallet loops will be changed. What part of "adjusted the quantity and distribution of pallets" gives you the impression that they will add line of sight blockers to loops that have existed for years at this point? I'm sorry but "it's understood that pallet loops will also be changed" is assuming something they never said. If it said "adjusted layout and distribution" then I could understand, but just "distribution and quantity?" Yeah, that's a no from me.
That's all the patch notes need to say
By whose opinion? Yours? If you are of the camp that believes ambiguous patch notes are fine, you are free to have that opinion. On the contrary, I'd like detailed notes and explanations, especially for changes that fundamentally change the gameplay loop. Simply wanting and asking for more detailed notes does not make me entitled, but you are free to think that way.
Again, there is still no official patch note or communication that surge causes survivors to scream. Of everything we've talked about, that would be one of the best candidates to receive a patch note for. Is your opinion on the matter of communication of changes "take what patch notes they're willing to give us and don't complain?" How is writing one line for "updated various loops to add line of sight blockers" or "updated surge so survivors scream" that much of a problem? How has our conversation shifted from your assumption that "blight had all these massive undocumented nerfs" to "you expect too much from the patch notes?" If those changes were documented, it would be a lot easier to make sense of it all, wouldn't it?
The conversation moved away from Blight, because I wasn't going to put up with your ridiculous demands for proof. No, it is absolutely not acceptable to ask someone to list 3 things, and then turn around and say "NOW I NEED 100% PROOF THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ACTUALLY PROVABLE PROOF".
Like seriously, that was an absolutely unacceptable follow up question. I don't owe you anything. I gave my answer, and I don't care if you like it. I don't care that you think every example is "not good enough for you".
Let's just be real here. You're going to be angry regardless of what anyone says. So just be angry. I don't care.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000898#Comment_4000898
You are indeed forcing people to play a frustrating match if you're hard tunneling. The killer is making the choice for others. Just like bully squads choose to make frustrating games for killers. And it's not about losing. Most people probably don't mind losing an even and balanced match where no one played dirty. Close matches are more thrilling than stomps. They mind being forced into a loss by some showing no skill and who was unwilling to engage with regular gameplay.
But if you can't hover near the average KR without constant tunneling (and I'm not sure I believe that) then that's on you, and that's why something needs to change in this game.
If hard tunneling and bully SWFs are equivalent things, then why aren’t we having QoL changes to nerf bully SWFs?
Why is the demands for game changes ALWAYS about how the game should be less frustrating for survivors, but NEVER about how the game should be less frustrating for killers?
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001626#Comment_4001626
Since the majority of your comments were about blight, I'm going to assume either a) you are a blight main, or b) watch content creators that discuss blight on a regular basis for you to know exactly when and what happened to blight's physics changes. I will also work under the false assumption that you have read every patch note in their entirety, read every forum post and comments from official sources, and can perfectly recall all information.
- If they were deliberate blight nerfs, how can you tell without a patch note? If it was discussed on the forums, then there was intention and thus a communication between the community and the devs. If there wasn't, how can you with 100% certainty claim the changes were deliberate when you do not know the intentions of the devs? Furthermore, as I mentioned, since the majority of your concerns were physics based, it is more likely it was an engine upgrade that could have broken those. You can't just assume physics based updates are deliberate when the devs are working with an external game engine that they do not own.
- Again, how can you tell if it was deliberate without a patch note or communication? I am also 99% certain there was a patch note describing directional audio.
- Your scratch mark comment was too ambiguous then. I had assumed you were talking about the 2 or 3 month span when scratch marks were bugged a year or two ago, but then they were quickly fixed and are more consistent now.
- Audio occlusion is also engine based. I thought that would have been self explanatory, but I suppose not. My same line of thinking follows for this as well.
- This wasn't in your original list, but killers have wanted hit validation and this was the implementation. This wasn't a deliberate nerf to killers, it is a new system that has its issues. Yes I wish it was better too, but it can hardly be considered a "killer nerf" even if you squint. Survivors 99% of the time get the short end of the stick with this system.
There is your patch note for the Haddonfield change. It’s specifically saying pallets are being changed, and it’s understood that means the pallet loops will also be changed.
That’s all the patch notes need to say. You aren’t entitled to a full list of every single changed pallet and every single changed pallet loop, that exists in every single map that was changed this patch.Nothing is been “hidden” by these patch notes. Instead, you are giving an unrealistic expectation for the patch notes.
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@bleep275 said:
thats helpful, i got it. but what are the tiers and their corresponding times?
I’m not sure what times are associated with each tier, because testing it requires breaking game rules.
I know the penalties start small and get increasingly larger, but I don’t know more than that.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001684#Comment_4001684
is there a page where i can read up on this or a video that goes over it well enough?
I don't have a video, but I do have pictures that might help…
In the above picture, a survivor played 20 games. The survivor ragequit in 10 of these games (count the red squares). This means they are on tier 10 of penalties, because they ragequit in 10 games in the most recent 20 games.
In the above picture, the survivor played 10 more games (games 21 to 30), and successfully completed all 10 of them (count the green squares).
The above picture shows we only care about the most recent 20 games, which means we don't care about games 1-10 anymore. The survivor ragequit in 5 of these games. This means they are on tier 5 of penalties.
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@bleep275 said:
There has been more DCs than usual with survivors lately.
so my question is…how does the new DC penalty system work?
I remember them reworking it…the disabling part of it…and i honestly stopped paying attention after that.
Before it was one tier per day…what is it now?
The game remembers the most recent 20 games you've played, and the game knows how many of those games involved a ragequit. So, for example, if you ragequit in 10 of your most recent 20 games, your DC penalty is at tier 10.
This means your DC penalties no longer decay over time, and they only decay when you play additional games without ragequitting.
The only part that was temporarily kill switched, was Go Next punishing survivors for ragequitting in ways that don't involve a DC.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001540#Comment_4001540
All of blight's deliberate nerfs were in patch notes and discussed at length on the forums.
Spirit gains more bugs every patch than loses. Those are just another set that are not fixed yet.
Scratch marks were eventually fixed and were actually buffed in their most recent iteration.
It seems like more than half of your "nerfs" are physics interactions. The devs have upgraded unreal versions multiple times, and it would make sense for unintended physics systems to break in that process. Those are not intentional on their part and are most likely just bugs.
- Actually, you're super wrong. They were deliberate Blight nerfs, but they weren't in the patch notes, because the patch notes are never expected to be 100% comprehensive.
- No, you can't just dismiss the Spirit nerf. It was 100% intended because survivors complained her directional audio wasn't good enough for them.
- Scratch marks were nerfed for years, so yes that counts as nerfs that weren't "immediately reverted"
- Why aren't you commenting on the audio occlusion itself, which is STILL a large killer nerf?
- The biggest undocumented nerf, is aim dressing being able to steal hits from the killer, because it makes proximity checks based on the killer side, then forcibly changes the killer's attack because of the proximity checks, and then afterwards does hit validation on the server side. And it has been YEARS since this started happening, since server validation started years ago.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001457#Comment_4001457
So your solution is to remove all good tile chains so killers like nurse, blight, spirit, oni, wesker, singularity, huntress, etc. can have even more of a cake walk when they play?
The lowest effort solution is either nerf the top 50% of killers so that their power level is on par with trapper for those changes to be valid, or buff the bottom 50% of killers and buff the maps accordingly to compensate for survivors.
The solution IF bloodlust is to be removed. Bloodlust is still in the game because many of the killers need it.
And your lowest effort solution doesn't make any sense, because the power levels of killers can vary wildly by MMR range. For example, Nurse is kind of trash at average MMR, but really good at high MMR. At Dredge is really good at average MMR, but kind of trash at high MMR.
It never made sense to have only one tier list for the entire game, and I think it causes all sorts of problems.
@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001291#Comment_4001291
Give me 3 undocumented killer nerfs that weren't immediately reverted after killers complained about them.
- Spirit's directional audio used to respect audio occlusion, then got changed to ignore audio occlusion.
- Blight used to be able to object slide while looking forwards, and then a patch was released that required him to look all the way up or down, which meant he couldn't see survivors while object sliding
- Blight used to be able to object slide on just about everything that looked like a flat wall, and then a patch was released that made it so he would bump off of tiny window frames in the walls. In fact, for a very long time, he could slide off of every flat-looking wall, until RPD was released, because some of those walls are actually shaped like Ruffles potato chips, and Blight would bump off of the Ruffles.
- Various patches would change the maximum angle that Blight could object slide, before the slide turned into a bump.
- Blight had turning nerfs that were never recorded in the patch notes
- Audio occlusion was buffed by a lot, and it used to be much easier to hear survivor noises behind a line of sight blocker, even if chase music was happening
- Scratch marks were heavily nerfed for a super long time, and there was a long period of time when BHVR kept changing scratchmarks over and over
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@[Deleted User] said:
I have played legion for a significant amount of time beginning shortly after his release, and with more and more killers added, it feels like the legion is not worth picking anymore. Legion is on paper supposed to be a hit and run killer that can keep survivors injured with "very easy" first hits. The power also gives some mediocre tracking and mobility.
Since legion's release there has been a few hit-and-run killers that do most or all of what feral frenzy does but better or in a different style. Ghoul, deathslinger, blight, singularity, and houndmaster. All of those killers can also use their power as anti-loop to actually finish the kill. Even the huntress in an open map can be better at fast injuries than legion and sadly she's one of the oldest killers.
Ghoul's first hits are a lot easier to get than on legion because he's so much faster and has a ranged attack. He doesn't have as good tracking perhaps but that doesn't matter because he traverses the map a lot faster. So if you have good game knowledge, you can actually get to the next chase faster.
Deathslinger seems like a weird comparison. However, if you land all the shots at the max range, this ranged killer is arguably better at hit-and-run than legion. You can injure survivors without having to leave your location which is great for camping. This is an alternative to legion's chase style, and I think it's arguably more useful in more scenarios. The power is also a great anti-loop. It's the same logic with houndmaster and huntress, but what makes them better is that they can actually down survivors. The legion generally has to hold W and eat pallets to get an actual result.
That's why he's horrible in comparison because he has to eventually commit to chasing a survivor for a very very long time into some useless corner of the map. Whereas these killers that I mentioned, when skillfully played, can down without having to hold W. They can also choose to simply injure but not commit, without losing too much pressure. On top of that, when the survivors are injured, their snowball potential is so much more threatening than a legion who has minimal snowball potential.
Basically my point is, today's killer designs are so much more lethal and effective at downing survivors without having to compromise their playstyle. It honestly feels like the ghoul specifically is what the legion was supposed to be. Maybe this killer needs the pre-2.7.0 gameplay back in a different form that is actually good and not one-dimensional. An idea I came up with on the spot is that feral frenzy gets massive number or gameplay buffs to help him turn the injuries into downs on the condition that every survivor has to be injured. Or maybe he just needs movement speed buffs. What do you think?
Legion is way less frustrating to play as, when the survivors want to aggressively bodyblocking for each other.
As in, survivors really don't try that against Legion that much, because Legion can easily just feral frenzy all the bodyblockers, and used the increased speed to still follow whoever they are chasing.
Meanwhile, if Ghoul tries to M2 a bodyblocker, they are stunned for so long that it can be annoying to catch up to the original target, since Ghoul's tokens regenerate so slowly.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001085#Comment_4001085
We can definitely weaken the strong loops, for sure.
But bloodlust will have to go.
That can happen right after "pallet chaining" is removed from the game. That's when survivors just run from pallet to pallet, playing everything as safely as possible, and many M1 killers have zero meaningful interaction until all the pallets in the area are gone.
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@Skillfulstone said:
While the version of basekit Unbreakable we got in the recent PTB was nowhere near as bad...
https://youtu.be/4YylV9xqt9A?si=uFEzbgiOfLfqHlXD
The last time BHVR tried giving basekit Unbreakable (although far more powerful than the recent attempt) it resulted in more harm than good. Last time, a turbo version of the Finisher Mori (in which the game would instantly end on a Mori animation if everyone was slugged at once) came alongside it, it didn't fix anything and mostly created new issues.
Just like this time, almost the whole community showed and informed BHVR on how flawed it was, and it went back in the oven.
The Finisher Mori of today was first tried then before getting rejected by most, and I assume the anti-slug in the recent PTB is the 2nd try at a much tamer basekit Unbreakable, still sharing similar flaws but on a less obvious scale.
This is the 3rd time we've had a failed anti-slugging solution.
There was supposed to be a chaos shuffle this year with an anti-slugging solution, and the solution was so bad the entire event got cancelled.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001085#Comment_4001085
This is not a zero sum game for balancing. Besides, the map is one of the most killer sided maps in the game. It's "the game" for killers. The reason people are asking for less dead zones is because there were ZERO pallets to begin with. Again, half the roster have abilities to counter almost every loop in the game. I'm sorry but balancing the game assuming every killer is running trapper with 0 perks but every survivor squad is a 4 man comp squad is how you arrive at that conclusion. Some tiles need to have strong pallets because killers like blight, oni, spirit, wesker, kaneki, etc. exist. Besides, calling those tiles strong to begin with is laughable to say the least.
And again, my whole point was for the devs to communicate these changes. Not to silently add them without any indication as to why. I'm sure if you added up all the undocumented changes the devs have done over the years to aid killers, you'd get a list twice as long as any meaningful survivor buffs. Remember, there is still no official patch note saying that surge causes you to scream if you're repairing the gen that erupts. Just to put that into context for you.
Haddonfield is way less killer-sided, than Badham is survivor-sided.
- Haddonfield is still really obnoxious for the killer to patrol
- It can be really obnoxious to find a survivor that pre-leaves an indoor generator because the houses have so many line of sight blockers that the killer often doesn't know if the survivor is still in the house or if the survivor left
- If the killer doesn't have good map mobility, then outdoor survivors will just run straight for one of the houses, because the houses have so many line of sight blockers that it can be really obnoxious to find the survivor. And I know people don't want to hear it, but fog vials are extra annoying in those houses, because of the super high number of line of sight blockers.
Like, I really don't think you realize how annoying those houses are for most killers.
Also, I don't know why you're acting like undocumented changes are 100% always in the favor of killers. Sometimes killer nerfs don't show up in the patch notes.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001059#Comment_4001059
It's a skill issue if you can't force that pickup truck pallet to be broken within 60 seconds. At that point, the killer is TRYING to prolong the chase.
What did you think was going to happen, when survivors demanded for maps to have less dead zones? Did you expect BHVR to just add more pallet and loops, and keep all the existing stuff the same?
In order for dead zones to be removed, the existing pallets and loops need to be made less safe. That's how map balancing works.
And I still don't understand why people feel the need to complain about weak loops and pallets, but never complain about loops and pallets that are so strong that killers have zero counterplay and zero meaningful interaction. If loops and pallets are supposed to be "more interactive", that means the stronger loops and pallet should be weaker so they become "more interactive" too.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001055#Comment_4001055
When did I ever say killers play perfectly or use that assumption in my post? Legitimately all you have to do at either of these loops is turn your brain off and hold w in one direction and force the survivor to throw the pallet. That's 15 seconds TOPS for the only pallet in a massive dead zone.
Besides, the original point of my post was having these changes be known and tested before getting pushed to live.
You said it's a "skill issue" if killers weren't playing the previous loops perfectly. Why aren't you also saying things are a "skill issue" if survivors weren't playing the previous loops perfectly?