Coffeecrashing
Coffeecrashing
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Why is Duty of Care still an AoE sprint burst, that works on all nearby survivors, regardless if they are injured, and regardless if they’re being tunneled, and it’s not an exhaustion perk?
BHVR is basically telling players they should never play M1 killers ever again, as long as this perk is like this. I’m certainly going to refuse to play any killers that don’t have increased chase mobility.
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People are well aware that it is intended for ragequitting to give a DC penalty, and they are exploiting when they purposely bypass the DC penalties. People should not be defending exploits.
And there are multiple people in this forum thread that are defending the ability to bypass the DC penalties, and that shouldn't be allowed.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921848#Comment_3921848
Every game in the world has a quick and easy way to disconnect, so that's definitely not the issue.
GN is about compelling people to stay in the match, the penalty serves as a deterrent. That's the whole point, to discourage people from leaving, which is another way of saying trying to keep them in the match. My point still stands: until you ascertain the why, people will find new ways to circumvent whatever system is introduced. DC penalties were supposed to remedy this issue, so players have pursued other means of achieving that goal. It'll be the same here.
Being able to easily bypass the DC penalties, is literally why the go next issue is so bad. This is combined with the fact that the DC penalties themselves start out super low.
But that’s literally the cause of the problem. The penalties aren’t a good enough deterrent because they are easily bypassed, and they start out way to low.
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@Nicholas said:
This entire thread is what's wrong. The symptom is disconnecting, but what is the root cause? That's where the discussion should be. No game mechanic in the world can force people to play when they don't want to play. The real issue is the devs aren't trying to figure out WHY this happens! And it doesn't help when the community is determined to find ways to compel people to stay when they clearly don't want to. Make a survey on Survivor disconnects and find out why people do it. That's where you really begin to address the issue, not implementing ways to keep people in a trial they don't want to be in.
The root cause is the game has a quick and easy way for survivors to ragequit, that bypasses the DC penalties.
And zero people are forcing you to play a game you don’t want to play. The Go Next Prevention won’t literally force you to play the game. The only thing it will do is give penalties when survivors are clearly trying to bypass the DC penalties.
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@BlackRabies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921668#Comment_3921668
No it's not a good thing. The actively controlling her drones and looking through them like how Singularity is able to will potentially make her a 3 gen monster again like her first version. Can't disable the drone because she will know and replace it, ignore it it'll crash into you and your forced to leave the area to remove the clawtrap before she shoots you with the EMP dart and the drone gets replaced. ClawTraps will be either useless or impossible to take off during chase since it'll work similar to mending.
There are too many different things that are going on with this new version that will demand very fine tuning to get it right or it's gonna be either useless or overpowered potentially making her worse than before. Might be best just to revert her back to 2.0 with a few tweaks, remove the haste/hinder and let her have the drone buddy.
It’s more likely the killer will have the Twins problem, where they start chasing a survivor with their drone, the survivor immediately runs away from the killer, and by the time the drone gets a hit, the survivor will be really far away and can remove the claw trap before the killer gets there.
The killer will end up wasting so much time, just because the killer stays in one place the entire time the survivor is being chased.
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Yes. If you look at the most recent few hundred forum threads, and count how many were survivor sided and how many were killer sided, then the survivor sided threads would win by a large amount.
The same goes for upvotes and downvotes.
People might claim these forums are killer sides, but we can do basic math to prove that wrong -
Anti slugging should be fixing slugging issues on BOTH SIDES of the game. It’s frustrating for the killer when they feel like they are forced to slug over and over.
It’s a terrible double standard to say slugging is a problem when it’s the killer’s decision, but it’s 100% good if it’s the survivors decision.
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@Apostrophe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920763#Comment_3920763
Yeah, there are a lot of games where the killer doesn't use NOED, I can admit that. But to me, I get a sense of satisfaction after the match when I see they brought NOED and know it didn't go off, so it's worth it to me. Even more satisfaction when I see they're a fellow streamer and I go into their stream after the match and playback the VOD to the moment they realize their NOED didn't work. It's hilarious listening and seeing the confusion on their face. But like I said, I use Detective's Hunch, and I've gotten very adept at being able to immediately locate where the totems are the moment the gens pop, so it takes absolutely no time to get rid of the totems just incase if it adds to my enjoyment of the game.
You're still sandbagging your team in most your games, regardless of your intentions, regardless of your personal satisfaction, and regardless of how efficiently you can break totems.
You're causing frustration to your teammates way more often than you're causing frustration to NOED killers. That really should matter.
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@Apostrophe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920733#Comment_3920733
I wouldn't call breaking totems sandbagging. I specifically run Detective's Hunch in all of my survivor builds because I cannot even begin to count how many times my entire team has made it out alive because the killer's NOED never went off due to me busted all the totems before gens were done. If you're wasting the entire match avoiding gens because you're hunting totems without something like DH to help you quickly find them, then sure, that can be detrimental to the team, but if you can take out all of the totems between gens, that's a massive boon for the team.
My biggest sandbagging gripe when playing solo is when your teammate is being chased by the killer and he specifically runs them to where you are, causing the killer to now focus on you instead. And it's always when you're over 90% done with a gen. When you start to hear a generator being worked on, or you see the gen's aura due to my Blast Mine, that means lead the killer AWAY.
No. Just no.
Breaking 5 dull totems, just in case the killer might have NOED, is absolutely sandbagging the entire team. NOED is less than 10% chance of even happening, and an even smaller chance that multiple survivors would die from it. Usually it just gets 1 kill at most.
Meanwhile, there is a much much larger percent of games, where breaking all 5 totems is a complete waste of time. There's no massive value in those games. The team would have been better off if you had just repaired generators instead.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920635#Comment_3920635
As much as I disagree with the whole putting your own win condition for the game… dbd has encouraged exactly that. I admit as survivor if I have cleanse 20 totems challenge then I'm doing my challenge and working on totems. To hell with the gens and my team mates lol. If I get a few totems done in the match I scratch it as a win for me.
And that is the biggest gap between solo q and SWFs. In solo q, we have people that are sandbagging the rest of their team, by doing things like spending 5 minutes just walking around breaking totems. It's bad for the game. How can solo q survivors feel like a team, when it's acceptable for survivors to actively sandbag their team like that?
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@arcaneGospel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920280#Comment_3920280
1 and 6 fall under just having status effects as part of her power, I'd say. Not that they're IRRELEVANT, but they're still part of drones' functionality. The rest is also just the details of how drones do their basic function of spotting and eventually injuring you. I won't argue that she doesn't have all those things as part of her drones, though, but I think you could reasonably argue Trapper is just an incomplete killer who hasn't been designed to account for his intrinsic weaknesses in the way someone like Skerchant has been. She definitely has a smoother way of trapping, but I wouldn't call it a lot more stuff than Trapper. She also needs to scan you three times to get the injury, whereas Trapper only needs to get you once— and if he's close, that one trap will often be a complete down. He can also actually shut down a loop. Skull Merchant doesn't have MORE stuff, just a smoother way of using her one thing.
I think you are severely underestimating how good her stealth is. She can attack directly out of stealth, she moves at full speed in stealth, she can't get knocked out of stealth by being revealed, she makes way less noise than the other stealth killers, she doesn't have a lullaby, and her stealth doesn't give survivors a global announcement that it has been activated. It's arguably the best stealth in the game.
And it is way more than Trapper, because her traps are actually useful in chase, if survivors are in an area that currently has zero traps. Seriously, try chasing survivors as Trapper, when survivors are in an area with zero traps, and let me know just how useful his trap ability is in chase.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920593#Comment_3920593
I'm sidetracking the thread from its intended goal of all of us yell at BHVR and its poor community managers, but to go into game design theory:
Most games (video, sports, board, etc.) employ a simple binary win/loss, with the occasional draw. The goal of players is to figure out the best ways to achieve victory.
However, this design can be argued to be simplistic and not really capturing the full range of what people enjoy / strive toward. Take a horror movie as an example being that's DbD's basis. A 'survivor' in such movies usually has three goals
-survive
-help others survive
-destroy the monster
The third one is totally off the table (they tried it in Deathgarden), so we're left with the first two. Let's imagine survivors had a clear win condition and it being 3+ escape. Well if 3 are at the gates they just leave, if 2 are there, 1 is dead, 1 on hook, then a rush at the hook no matter the risk and if two are already dead, well what's the point of playing?
On the other hand if the win condition is survivor escape = win for them, the others don't matter, well then being altruistic in the end game doesn't serve any purpose.
Having a singular win condition would be clearer, but I think a lot a less interesting. Having multiple 'win' conditions means players have to put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more
There are a couple of ways a game could approach it and BHVR dips their toes into all of them. You could tell players that the degree of victory is important, so a major victory is more valuable then a minor victory (the board game Diplomacy is a good example of this). You can give them something else to play for, such as bloodpoints and pips, so you have a goal of 'winning' the trial, but you also have a goal of accumulating blood points (which used to be a much bigger motivator). Or you can say that there is no pure win condition, just different goals.
As I said, its not how I would do it, but people look for different things in games.
If a killer decides they want to do a "slugging challenge", and decides their win condition is to let every survivor bleed out on the ground, then according to you, that is 100% acceptable, because this player put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more.
If a survivor decides they want to do a "final girl challenge", and decides their win condition is to hide the entire match, and just watch all their teammates die, so they can be the final survivor that is alive, then according to you, that is 100% acceptable, because this player put their own value on different issues and risk what they have for the possibility of more.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920563#Comment_3920563
People that like clearly defined win conditions aren't going to want to play this game.I guess the obvious counter argument is that people who don't like clearly defined win conditions wouldn't want to play if they changed it. You can't possibly please both groups absolutely.
Like I said, it isn't how I would have done it, but seems to be the design a lot of asymmetrical games go for.
I’d argue those people are holding back this game. The whole “everyone can be a winner” mentality isn’t good for the game. We could literally have a game of 5 players, where all 5 players honestly believed they won the game. How is that reasonable?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920469#Comment_3920469
Am I not supposed to care about whether or not I actually won the game overall?That's basically correct. From BHVR's point of view you can as much win a trial of DbD as you can win the Sims. You have various goals and the value you attach to those goals is up to you.
Now its not how I would design a game, but it is a way that a game can be designed. Deathgarden was even more confusing so I think it's a design that BHVR likes.
The mistake on BHVR's part in this post / earlier in the forums was ever mentioning the word 'loss' at all and now they seem stuck.
This is why I can never get my real life friends to play this game. Every PvP game I play with real life friends, has a very clear VICTORY or 1ST PLACE message when we've won the game. People that like clearly defined win conditions aren't going to want to play this game.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920098#Comment_3920098
I will say what we've always said about MMR which is: play your game without worrying about a hidden number which is purely there for matchmaking purposes.
Also, you say I shouldn't care about a hidden number…. but what else am I supposed to care about instead? BHVR still refuses to give us a post-game VICTORY or DEFEAT message, that tells us which side won the game overall.
For example, if the killer gets a 3k, did they get an overall VICTORY? If so, then why do we get a vague "Ruthless Killer" message? Am I not supposed to care about whether or not I actually won the game overall?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919931#Comment_3919931
For the last person it sounds like it. But you still get the 3k for killing the other survivors, so it's a win for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919979#Comment_3919979
If you've killed the other 3 survivors then your MMR should increase as you still got a 3k so it's a win against those survivors. Apparently for MMR purposes its 1v1v1v1v1.
Sounds like this draw thing will only be a hindrance to those who have slugged everyone for the 4k.
Not necessarily. There are scenarios like the 3rd survivor being on hook, the 4th survivor getting knocked to the ground, and 1 second later the 3rd and 4th survivors abandon the game. Realistically, the killer won against all 4 survivors at this point, but if the killer now abandons the game, it might turn the entire game into a draw, or it might change just those two survivors into a draw. We don't know which is which, and we can't assume one choice is more likely than the other.
And in my scenario, zero survivors were slugged for the 4k, but the abandon button is INSTANTLY available to survivors if all the survivors are in the dying state, so they get to abandon even if zero prolonged slugging happened.
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@arcaneGospel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919918#Comment_3919918
What 'other stuff' does Skull Merchant really have? She has drones, which are traps that reveal your location to her, and eventually injure you. That's kind of it. Sure, there's some small status effects in the kit but not really anything that goes beyond "Her traps put you in danger."
- She gets stealth when she drops a trap, and she's so quiet that she can actually sneak up on people.
- She has a radar, and when a survivor triggers a trap she gets location reveal for a while, which the survivor can't block. And when a survivor get a claw trap, she gets location reveal for a long time.
- She doesn't need to manually retrieve traps (unlike Trapper).
- She can drop traps while moving, so it useful to do in chase (unlike Trapper).
- Her trap range is decently large (unlike Trapper), which means that if she drops traps near generators, the survivors can't just step around them.
- She gets a stacking haste buff from her traps, which is way better than the mostly useless haste buff Trapper gets when he sets a trap.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920157#Comment_3920157
You can do that, and I understand why. But it's pointless because even with 42069 MMR, you're going to be paired against the Potato Leagues, so sweating or 8 hooking is pointless because you're going to get tryhard/silly matches no matter what you do.
A true, skill based mmr matchmaking was tried and it made queues too long for fringe cases.
My goal is to maximize the percentage of quality games. Therefore, I'm not going to say "if I can't reach 100% quality games, then I might as well not try at all".
Trying to keep my MMR as high as possible might result in a higher percentage of quality games, than if I just played for convenience, so I will do this. BHVR refuses to give us details, so I must always jump to the worst conclusions….
- I need to never press the abandon button, because I am given zero information on how it affects MMR.
- I need to always slug for the 4k, because as far as I know, a 4k might be worth a lot more MMR than a 3k.
- I must always assume that closing hatch is a bad game decision, because BHVR refuses to tell us if gate escapes are worth MMR if there are generators left to be repaired, so I must assume the worst.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920098#Comment_3920098
I will say what we've always said about MMR which is: play your game without worrying about a hidden number which is purely there for matchmaking purposes.
I’m doing these things specifically for matchmaking purposes.
I purposely want the highest ranked matchmaking I can get. I don’t want the easy matches. It’s boring if I get a 4k at 5 gens.
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@Mandy said:
One thing to add as I can see people talking about the win / lose / draw conditions, please know this is match outcome and not what happens with MMR which is much more conditional.
Are we allowed to know how the abandon feature interacts with MMR? I honestly don’t care what the end game screen says. I just want to do whatever raises my MMR the most, so I have the maximum chances of getting matched with quality opponents.
I play DBD as if this was a competitive game, and I owe it to my opponents to try to be at my correct MMR. If I’m unknowingly lowering my MMR, that isn’t fair to my opponents.
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The new abandon feature is even worse than I previously thought….
If a killer hooks the 3rd survivor, and knocks the 4th survivor to the ground, then the 3rd AND 4th survivor can abandon and get a draw. This also means the 4th survivor can just run straight to the killer, because if the killer knock them to the ground while the 3rd survivor is still alive, they both get a draw.
Just imagine that whenever a SWF is losing, they all just run straight for the killer, because unless the killer wastes a bunch of time to kill them one at a time, then it’s likely that multiple survivors will be able to get an abandon draw.
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@Madjura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920036#Comment_3920036
You could always do this. The only difference now is that you can avoid the disconnect penalty (and MMR loss, if you care about that). A Survivor who is willing to do that to themselves is likely not going to care about the disconnect penalty. And holding the game hostage is against the rules, just report them and they will be banned if they do it often enough (unless it is a permanent ban the first time you do it, in which case that behavior can be stopped even faster).
There needs to be actual in game solutions for survivors holding the game hostage. Placing tickets, that need to be manually reviewed, isn’t a good solution.
It would have been awesome if the anti hiding stuff could have been implemented already, instead of waiting until the last possible moment of phase 1.
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@TripleStryke said:
I think there are some issues with the abandon system.
Killer:
For the killer's first scenario where every survivor in the trial is a bot, I think that this should count as a Win, but a Draw is fine.
However, I think that for the second scenario, the design is inherently flawed. If no gen has been done for 10 minutes because the survivors are hiding/holding the killer hostage by not progressing the game, that should be discouraged and count as a Draw or Win for the killer. However, if those 10 minutes are because the killer is 3 genning to meet the time limit against a solo team I think that should be discouraged as well and count as a Draw or Loss for the killer. I think that this system should be adjusted entirely to:
- If no generator has been progressed by survivors for 5 minutes the killer can abandon and it is counted as a Win.
I feel that this would be better than a generator being completed because it removes the 3 gen scenario, and exclusively targets the refusal to progress the game.
Survivor:
For the survivor's first scenario where every other survivor is a bot I agree it should be a Draw.
However, if all survivors in the trial are in the dying state for the second scenario why on earth does this count as a draw. The last survivor alive can abandon every time and it will never count as a loss. This should be counted as a Loss for survivor.
So if 1 survivor repairs a generator for 5 seconds, once every 5 minutes, the survivors can hold the game hostage?
There needs to be a judgment call if the survivors to honestly trying to repair generators, or if they’re repairing for tiny amounts of time, and then the excessively hiding until it’s safe again to repair.
Because of the survivor team strategy is to drag the game another 30 minutes so they can eventually reach the gen kick limit, then that’s bad, and shouldn’t be rewarded.
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The abandon rules break one of the most important rules of MMR. If one side gains MMR, then the other side should lose MMR. And if one side loses MMR, then the other side should gain MMR.
It just doesn’t make sense that a survivor can DC and lose MMR, but then the killer abandons and doesn’t gain MMR.
It also doesn’t make sense that a survivor can abandon with a 0 MMR change, but if the killer sacrifices the replacement bot they gain MMR.
And sacrificing bots gives killer MMR, right? Otherwise, survivors can deny killers MMR by DCing or abandoning a game.
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If the last survivor abandons, and the killer immediately abandons afterwards, does that mean the killer turned an MMR gain into a draw? Would killers be able to do that to manipulate their MMR?
And does it mean the entire match is a draw, or just part of the match involving the last survivor?
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”Scenario #2 - When
all Survivorsalive in a Trial are in the Dying State:- The Survivors can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.”
Does this mean the 4th survivor will never lose MMR if they abandon the game like 0.5 seconds after being placed in the dying state???This HEAVILY encourages survivors to excessively hide when the game isn’t going well for them, because they would be able to 100% avoid an MMR loss if they are the last survivor alive.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919909#Comment_3919909
I feel like the solution to it potentially being too much is keeping the killer aura on a 4 second timer, and lowering the rest to 2.
So after 2 seconds, you see gens, totems, chests and after 4, the killer as well.
I made a post some time ago that included Still Sight, and someone suggested this version in the comments. (Edit: it was @bjorksnas )
I agree that the perk should be able to reveal killer auras at 4 seconds, and everything else (including totems) at 2 seconds.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919770#Comment_3919770
So are trappers traps unfair because you ran into them on the other side of the map and you're now injured? What you basically just described is:
"Survivors fail to act appropriately against a killers power and get punished for it".
Survivor's running around blindly with zero sense of caution and triggering things isn't "unfair" on them. It isnt about if the killer "deserved" it, its about if the survivor deserved it for poor and reckless gameplay (and they did).
I guess trapper doesn't ever deserve his trap injuries by this logic.
Arguably those hits are considered undeserved too.
But people tolerate it because that’s his entire power. And his traps have extremely limited value during chases, if the survivors are in an area with 0 set traps.
Meanwhile, Skull Merchant has a bunch of other stuff besides traps that can injure, and she can drop traps while moving, which means they have a lot of value during chases.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919909#Comment_3919909
What?
It's a very slight difference for excessive hiding, where you're already not moving very much.
It's a big deal for anything else where you want to be moving more often. It'd buff the perk's actually healthy uses and wouldn't move the needle much for specifically excessive hiding only.
Nobody's trying to claim those two things simultaneously, one never even entered the conversation.
Then have the killer aura reading activate after 4 seconds, and everything else can activate after 2 seconds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919906#Comment_3919906
Eh, not really. The perk currently allows for excessive hiding and that would only tick up very slightly if the perk were buffed at doing literally anything else.
It's not an issue here.
If going from 4 seconds to 2 seconds is a “very slightly” difference, then why bother making the change at all? Just suggest that totems get added to the perk, and the perk stays at 4 seconds.
But we can’t simultaneously say that going from 4 seconds to 2 seconds is important, but also won’t matter much.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919901#Comment_3919901
I mean, surely the time to talk about that would be after we see what the details would be, right?
And the place to talk about it wouldn't be in relation to a wholly separate buff idea for a specific perk, too.
The anti-hiding feature is supposed to happen soon, and surely we can wait for that to happen, before figuring out if any perks should be buffed to allow easier hiding.
Your perk buff idea directly affects excessive hiding, if killer aura reading is still in the perk. This is completely relevant.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919898#Comment_3919898
Excessive hiding is on the roadmap for fixes, so I don't think we need to be concerned with that here.
We have zero idea how effective the anti hiding feature will be.
We have an anti face camping mechanic, and people are still complaining about regular camping. It’s very possible the anti-hiding mechanic will be considered underwhelming, and that excessive hiding is still a problem.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919887#Comment_3919887
As long as the activation timer isn't short enough to use in chase, the killer aura should be completely fine. If you can't use it to mindgame in chase, it's only real use case is for watching the killer leave while you're crouched behind a tile, and that isn't all that overbearing.
If the killer aura is staying, then I’d rather the entire perk stay as it is.
2 seconds means that if a survivor is hiding in an area that the killer is patrolling, that they can repeatedly check where the killer is going, to make it easier to hide. We don’t need another perk to help survivors excessively hide.
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If the killer aura is removed, then it should be completely fine to increase the range, and add totem revealing.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Yeah, I dont understand why Blight never got any real changes to his basekit. Sure, they nerfed his best Add Ons, but considering that Alchemist Ring was around for years and even other Add Ons of him got buffed instead of Alch Ring nerfed is a joke. Someone at BHVR is clearly a Blight-Main.
I dont think it as ridiculous as Nurse, but it comes close. When you see that they give nerfs to some Killers which are good, but not as good as Blight and leave Blight and Nurse mostly untouched, it sometimes does not make that much sense.
But I dont have THAT much of a problem with Blight, because he at least requires a lot of effort to get to a level where you consistently win your games.
Blight had his object sliding completely removed from the game. And this goes way beyond “hug tech”. Blight also had intended object sliding in his basket, to help decide which objects to bounce off of, and that was completely removed too.
And that was a huge nerf. Blight used to be able to slide around 90 degree walls, and then use another rush token to continue dashing. There are also a lot of loops that he can’t reliably get hits from anymore, because he is stuck bouncing on objects in the loop instead of quickly sliding across them.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919680#Comment_3919680
Which, she didn't get any. What unfair hits? Because she's stealthed sometimes, and had Haste sometimes, similar to Bloodlust I? I thought people's biggest problem was with her 3-genning (an issue that solves itself, because of the gen kick limit)? But you're right, that we don't know how this rework is going to be, or who it's made for.
When a survivor gets a claw trap, while the killer was far away, it’s considered an “unfair hit”, or a “hit out of nowhere”, because the claw trap injures them, but the “killer didn’t do anything to deserve it”.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919680#Comment_3919680
I don't go for conspiracy brain thinking if I can help it. I'd rather take the devs at their word and assume they're making mistakes.
Obviously, they're not going to be front and centre with saying "this rework is only happening because of an irrational hate train", but that's about as far as I'm willing to go assuming something the devs aren't actively saying.
To be fair, the design preview is way way easier for survivors to understand the counterplay, than previous Skull Merchant.
Most survivors never figured out how to do the “run, crawl for like 0.3 seconds, run” counterplay for scan lines, and they also never figured out you can run directly under the drone to avoid both scan lines.
And the entire “maybe survivors shouldn’t just run around corners without checking for drones” counterplay was just way too complicated, which is why people kept complaining about “unfair hits from across the map”.
….But it doesnt matter how complex the design preview is, the entire thing is “survivors only get hit by a drone dash or dart projectile” and “if survivors get a reveal warning, they should stop running or walking if they want to stay hidden”
It’s also extremely likely the survivors will get a warning when Skull Merchant switches view to a drone (like Twins or Houndmaster), which means survivors don’t even need to worry at all about drone dashes unless they get the global warning sound.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919676#Comment_3919676
To be fair, I don't think the takeaway here is supposed to be "New Skull Merchant would be impossible to understand".
The point is, what's in the design preview is objectively more complicated than current Skull Merchant, when the goal was to try and make her less complicated. Sure, you'd be able to figure her out with a little attention and patience if this new version hit live (though there'd be myriads of other problems because the design preview is kind of a nightmare), but that's a failure state as far as BHVR's stated goals go.
You and I may agree she isn't actually that complicated right now, but the fact remains that BHVR said they wanted her to be easier to understand and the design preview goes in the opposite direction.
The #1 goal of the rework is to remove the “unfair hits” that survivors complained about.
All this talk of “making her less complicated” is just a distraction, to secretly hide the actual purpose of the rework.
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@frictionless said:
I agree with a lot of the sentiment being expressed here— that this could potentially be very fun to play against with some tweaking, that there are good ideas at play— and, most importantly, that this really doesn't feel even remotely like a Skull Merchant rework.
If the goal was to make her simpler in function and counterplay, then this is several steps in the wrong direction. Expecting unfamiliar players to deal with multiple different skillshots and their respective windups and a more specific condition behind the global detection power is a lot, especially when players complained so much about her conceptually much simpler previous iteration. Speaking of that global detection power, I don't see what this is supposed to change. This is still an ability that offers extremely near to nothing to people playing at any skill level past complete beginner. The only real utility it'd have would still be getting vision on survivors mid-chase to avoid being tricked by unique pathing on tall loops/tiles. The real kicker is that all this change does is make it slightly harder for fresh installs to figure out how it works, because unless a big flashing prompt tells you that you need to crouch, it isn't going to be super intuitive to someone new to the game or the matchup that that's the specific thing they need to do.
As for the scan lines… Why? Why reintroduce something that was initially being removed because it was supposedly too visually noisy and clashing? And why do that after every other gameplay change made to the character has made them pointless? I don't think anybody is under the impression that the old scanlines were genuinely impactful information gathering tools, nor is having them back going to change the matchup. This is another instance of something that only affects extremely new players being treated as if it's a consistent factor of her gameplay. It almost feels like it's supposed to be a consolation prize for the fact that her previously pitched ability to down remotely is being removed, which is a massive blow to the core map control, macro-centric core of the character and to the high skill bracket viability of a high setup, zero mobility killer.
I think the best way to summarize the flaws with this pitch are by explaining what this character would actually be able to do:
With the zero risk, obvious reward, and minimal time/opportunity cost of hacking drones, it's almost never the wrong thing to be doing on survivor, so unattended drones are pointless. With a limited range on the drones themselves, how you approach chases would depend a lot on the balancing of the drones, ranging at her strongest to a Twins sort of arrangement where you regularly throw them out to snag injuries on survivors, to a more Artist-like style at their weakest, where drones that are unreliable for direct attacks would be best set up ahead of time and used on cornered or caught-off-guard survivors. From there, you're at best a short-range Deathslinger that can secure the down with a quick projectile, or at worst more of a Xenomorph sort of deal where your power is more about prediction and zoning than a reliable ability to land shots within its range. With one of your two powers being completely reliant on the other to do anything, it would rarely be worth committing to chases with non-claw trapped survivors, and conversely, it usually wouldn't be worth using drones on survivors you don't intend to chase. With strong drones, this and the ability of survivors to remove unattended claw traps would be a major annoyance, enforcing a specific order of operations on her chases and with it, monotonous gameplay. With weak drones, this would be a death sentence for this killer, regularly forcing her players into their own lose-lose of taking the extra time to set up a drone hit or chasing as a powerless M1 killer.Any reasonably powerful combination of these elements would end up playing out somewhat like Clown— a killer with minimal map pressure made up for with strong chase potential. Attaching this kind of playstyle, one where a single survivor is rapidly honed in on with a broad and complicated set of tools and mechanics, to a killer with the Skull Merchant's current reputation would be a massive mistake and would heavily exacerbate the issues the community has with her. Any suggestion I could make towards improving this would be along the lines of shifting away from the chase-focused direction proposed here and back to something with its own macro play, and would be another drop in the bucket of Skull Merchant fan tears hoping that we don't lose one of the game's only trap killers to this rework. I still 100% believe that no changes made to SM can cleanse her of the way a vocal minority of players see her, and that trying to cater to people that hated her before is only going to leave everyone disappointed.
Scan lines are being added so the killer won’t be able to ambush survivors with the drones. It also gives survivors lots of counterplay if the killer tries to chase them towards a drone, because the survivor could easily see the drone, and would often be able to just run somewhere else instead.
BHVR is so concerned about survivors getting “unfair hits”, that the drones will be super useless.
And honestly, why bother spending all the extra time and effort to get a drone propulsion hit, when you could be Legion instead and get free injures? Skull Merchant doesn’t look like she’ll have stealth, or haste, or hindered, and her drone propulsion can’t knock a survivor to the ground… and the EMP dart idea just sounds bad because the survivor can manually remove claw traps, and they’ll be able to dodge the EMP dart.
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@ThatRyanB said:
In addition to the conversation going on in this thread (which we're closely following - thanks for being so in-depth with your thoughts!), I wanted to pose two other questions:
1. What do you feel is the most complex-to-understand aspect of this Killer's gameplay flow here?2. What would YOU name the Drone Buddy? 👀
The most complex-to-understand aspect is how the killer is supposed to actually do anything if the survivors play well.
- Your workflow had the killer using the global reveal at the beginning of the game, but the survivors can just stop running/walking when they get the global reveal warning.
- Your workflow involved the drones chasing survivors, but then said survivors can just run around a tight loop for counterplay, at which point the killer probably needs to stop using the drone.
- Your workflow added scan lines to the drones, which means they can't be used to ambush survivors, because if the killer tries to chase them toward a drone that is hidden behind an environmental object, the survivors can see the scan lines, and not be surprised.
For the drone name, her lore mentions Adi Valente, who had a quirky robot companion. Skull Merchant's drone buddy could have the same name as Adi's robot companion, if BHVR could create a name for Adi's robot companion and update the lore.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919196#Comment_3919196
A "held interaction" refers to an action that requires you to hold it for a short period before it completes. In other words, think healing.
Also, scan lines always being visible means the killer can’t hide the drones behind environmental objects to ambush survivors.
So we can’t ambush with the drones, but we also probably cant use the drones against survivors that are running a tight loop, so the entire thing just has so much counterplay that survivors will almost always be completely safe if they play correctly????
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919199#Comment_3919199
Thanks for taking the time to lay all of this out. Your comments about complexity are something we're carefully considering on our side as well, especially if there are ways we can help guide players in their understanding of potential playstyles. I'll be sure to share your notes with the team
I honestly don't understand how the Drone Propulsion is supposed to hit survivors. Victor moves way faster than the drone will, and he can barely hit survivors that are running around a tight loop. Honestly, what are the drones supposed to do if survivors run around a tight loop? Is that just 100% guaranteed counterplay, and the killer needs to just stop controlling the drone, at which point the survivor will hack it?
The "activating your Global Detection Power in hopes of catching a Survivor heading to their first gen" idea just seems very unreasonable. If the survivors have enough time to stop running, then how is this supposed to find anyone near the beginning of the game? Won't survivors just hear the global warning, start crouch-walking, and the killer just wasted their global warning power? Honestly, the only time the global power feels useful is if the killer knows the survivor is on a specific generator, or has just unhooked someone at a specific hook, and the killer is running to that specific location and will catch the survivor(s) unless they are running.
But super real question, should the killer be expected to get Drone Propulsion hits if the survivors play perfectly, or will this power rely on survivors making mistakes?
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The best buff for Dredge would be to actually allow him to choose which locker to teleport to, instead of being forced to a nearby locked locker.
If there are two lockers next to each other, survivors should be required to lock both of them at the same time if they want to slow down this killer.
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I thought BHVR hid prestige’s levels specifically because there were too many lobby dodges happening because of it???
Why would they give players stuff that can be seen in lobbys, so people can lobby dodge the P100s again?
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@WolfePhD said:
I know I am late to the party on this thread, but I still want to give my thoughts and input.
More specifically, I do not understand why ONE survey published at ONE point in time is used to draw conclusions about developer thoughts and behavior. Don’t you think any reasonable conclusion should be based on more than ONE piece of evidence?
After taking the survey, it is clear to me that the developers are looking at improving the survivor gameplay experience to reduce churn. The survey had a Survivor focus. This makes complete sense to me. In every trial, there are 5 players. 4 of the 5 players are Survivors. It stands to reason that you would FIRST look at how to make 4/5 people not quit the game.
This does not mean that Killers are unwanted. This does not mean that Killers are unloved. The 5th player is NOT left out. They are still cared about. But change does not happen overnight. We have to start somewhere.
The goal is to make all five people happy. I would rather start by improving QoL for 4. QoL for the 5th is still important, just lower priority. When the next Survey drops and it has a Killer focus, I hope we all remember this conversation and how silly we looked trying to draw meaning from something so simple.
But it wasn’t just one survey….
The previous surveys did stuff like focus on how survivors felt about being slugged, but zero focus on how killers felt about slugging, or how killers felt when they are forced to slug. Or they’ll repeatedly ask me if playing survivor “feels like I’m part of a team”
In fact, if we were to go look at all the surveys I filled out in the past year, I don’t remember any of them caring about the killer experience, at all. Not even once.
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@SeriousRain said:
I am tired boss, can I get some other killers? My past 20 games are like 16 ghouls like I get he is fun but come on…
This is what happens when many killers get nerfed so badly that they aren’t fun to play as anymore.
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@Jadelysta said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916962#Comment_3916962
They must be noticing survivors going on hiatus in decent amounts, me being one of the daily solo queue survivor players that haven't played in weeks.
DBD currently has a very survivor sided event, that often spawns blood generators that are impossible to defend.
It’s so survivor sided that my killer queues for the event is decently fast, even though a massively popular killer was released less than a week ago.
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@Jadelysta said:
Why are you purposely making this to start a flame war? grow up.
I spent almost the entire survey talking about my feelings as a survivor player.
I saw a grand total of zero questions asking about killer player satisfaction.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/443574/edit-the-1-800-mmr-range-is-the-top-10
They comment 10%, as shown in the thread, but we still don't know how big of a player pool they are counting. Is the player pool everyone who has ever launched the game, everyone who played at least once during the trial period, or some other number?
I'm not concerned about that question, because other games that have MMR aren't concerned with that question.
For example, above is the SF6 MMR distributions, and it doesn't bother to tell us more details, and people really don't complain that there aren't more details to this chart. It's normal for games to release stats like this.
Having said that, it would be super cool if DBD released a chart like this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916081#Comment_3916081
Not even remotely comparable.
The intent behind the Xenomorph changes was, explicitly, to buff the killer. The changes didn't work out that way in most people's eyes, and so they didn't go live.
Chucky, similarly, hasn't ever had his core gameplan surgically dismantled like Skull Merchant did. He had a handful of straightforward balance changes that some people feel went too far, which isn't close to what happened to Merchant. People only act like it is because they feel he's bad now, which ignores a whole bunch of important context.
The intent behind the Xenomorph changes was to make it easier for lower MMR survivors to knock Xeno out of crawler mode with turrets. There were too many survivors complaining that the turrets were "useless", because too many survivors couldn't figure out how to get any value from them.
The turrets were too complicated for lower MMR survivors, because survivors had to know where to place them, and how to path the killer so they get ambushed by them.