CleanseThis
CleanseThis
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827404#Comment_3827404
I mean if the skill level of survivors is massively dependent on a perk to do the critical thinking for them then maybe its not a good design
Or maybe survivors like equipping it because of the vast info it gives. Maybe it makes up for their short-comings.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827427#Comment_3827427
Survivors would start equipping a 4th perk that does things?
Wrong and Right answer. It would be expose how bad most survivors are at playing tiles, kill rates would go up.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Players who bought the game and want to use WoO should be able to. Everyone here stating 'braindead' players and 'not teaching' new players are far too entitled. You're not telling me or anyone else how to play the game. People will try and ruin others fun at any given turn on these forums, even if it means writing up niche scenarios.
Just play the game and stop worrying about others playing the game.
Nah, Im just playing, killers. You know I love you :)
I'll even hop in!
WoO isn't busted. If I as a killer think they have it, they're running 3 perks. Its a joy. Even if they use it PERFECTLY, its not going to be as good as a lot of other choices. Complaints here from the killer squads are baffling me atm. Tell me its a better reason than 1: overused or 2: autopilot.
What do you think would happen if WoO got removed from the game? seriously, what do you think would happen?
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@jesterkind said:
I mean, why, though?
Neither are problematic, at least in terms of revealing pallets and windows. There's no reason to get rid of either.
idk about you but if I have WoO equipped and I'm on a gen looking around I can definitely see I have options to run to beforehand. Maybe that's not beneficial to you but to me that's a heckuva lot of info right at the ready.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827406#Comment_3827406
…what?
You asked how survivors get more value from WoO than killers did with old Zanshin, I answered your question. I don't see what that has to do with some bizarre scenario involving removing the perk entirely from the game. I don't even necessarily want it nerfed.
You explained how those 2 identical perks act differently depending on which role you play (killer or survivor). For the survivor side it's immensely beneficial and for the killer side not so much. The current "outrage" of WoO is because of how auto pilot the perk is especially if you are new as well as experienced because it takes the overall game sense that one learns through experience and time and sort of just guides you where to go depending where you are on the map that's why it's unhealthy. It turns trash loopers into better loopers almost instantly.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826676#Comment_3826676
The data's value and importance was honestly higher for WoO than Zanshin, even though they were effectively the same. As long as they're not being zoned, survivors control the direction of a chase at any given time. That said, routing your movement in advance is one of the key strengths of WoO, while another one is managing resources that other survivors have already used. Killer also doesn't need to know which pallets are used/broken, because 99% of the time they were present when the pallet was used up, so that data becomes significantly less important to them.
They were very similar in terms of their data they provided, but both their application and potential changed significantly due to the functions/objectives of their role. Zanshin in its previous iteration still had its uses, and different killers got different degrees of value from it, but it was rarely enough of an impact to sacrifice a perk slot for on most builds.
Its easy to assume they were equal due to an equal impact, but consider this. If something is evenly distributed to two different people, there is a good chance they will have differing levels of usefulness. If you gave two people food and one of them was allergic, they wouldn't be able to get as much value from the food as the other person. Its just a matter of having different objectives and gameplay loops.
Your making my point for me. If WoO was removed from the game would we see a spike in kill rates? enough to skew the data in the long term to where certain killers will need to have tweaks made to them based of the said data? idk but I wonder.
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@bjorksnas said:
WoO is a training wheels perk in the sense of knowing where pallets and windows are as a survivor before approaching a tile gives a massive advantage and can make sure you path only towards zones with resources and not into deadzones created by teammates
On the other hand zanshin is mostly useless as a training wheels perk. Whats a killer gonna do make sure to go to a pallet so they can admire it?
That's my point and the reason I started this thread. Hypothetically let's say WoO got removed from the game. Would kill rates drastically go up and skew the data in say 4-6 months? Would adjustments have to be to certain killers based off the possible change in data?
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@KerJuice said:
I use Windows a lot, but I’ll gladly hand it over if Lethal Pursuer can get the axe too.
I wouldve given you old Zanshin. That's a fair 1-1 trade.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825909#Comment_3825909
And once they do learn the maps?
Would you say to yourself after seeing survivors predrop pallets "oh well, at least they learned where the set pallet spawns are or can recognize a jungle gym, I no longer have any complaints"? Would you go against a full slowdown midwich nurse and say "well she's not using aura so this is completely fine"?
Be real with yourself.
WoO and old Zanshin were 1 to 1 perks. Do you think survivors get more value from WoO than killers got from old Zanshin if so why? if not why?
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825909#Comment_3825909
Is that a problem tho?? Ever heard of Zanshin Tactics?? killers literally have the same perk. I think your one of those who play killer and complain that you lose matches because of a perk and you want it to get nerfed. Just say your trash at chasing survivors theres no reason for it to get nerfed. That is like saying pain res should get nerfed because it is a meta?? Like so what who cares
Who tf uses zanshin other than 300 page clown guide guy
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824207#Comment_3824207
I can assure you, that somewhere, somehow, there is a person who will complain about No Mither or Bloodhound.
lol
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820519#Comment_3820519
Being in a SWF gives you some consistency in your matches. You can avoid matchmaking issues. This is probably the biggest issue for solo players, as one weak teammate can doom the entire match. You don't have to deal with teammates griefing you whilst you are in a SWF. You can limit the effects of snowballing by the killer, by coordinating with your teammates. If you are getting tunneled, a SWF can help keep you alive. That's much harder to do in solo.
Playing in solo queue can be very frustrating at times. Not only because you are much more vulnerable to a killer player that wants to isolate and eliminate you, but because you are forced to rely on the matchmaking working, and the other survivors pulling their weight. It makes sense that most experienced players tend to only play with their friends. I think that's why solo matchmaking fails so often, good players likely don't want anything to do with solo queue.
I get what you are saying but this isn't how the gaming industry works or most businesses. The store charging you for an item right then and there and later you find out you don't like or need said item or whatever and so you return said item just to find out that yeah youll get your money back but don't expect to see right away, you'll have to wait 4-7 business days for it to be available in your account is just the way it is. If you have a better solution how to simplify this process I'm sure every store/bank would love to hear and would pay millions.
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@turksmall236 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820519#Comment_3820519
Probably because their teammates don't bother saving them when they're on hook. And hanging on a hook not being able to do anything at all is extremely boring
Get better at the game and be positive, you win some and lose some. People here turn everything into a personal sociology experiment where the only way to truly figure out the issue is to probe each and every players personal mind and life problems.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820517#Comment_3820517
Typical response of people not understanding what the perk actually is useful for.
Im acknowledging WoW is useful, too useful.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820517#Comment_3820517
If it's not strong, it doesn't need nerfing. Survivors still need to know how to run tiles to use this perk. There's no way around that learning curve just by using this perk, as you suggest. That's like saying gen defence is OP because it makes killers skip chasing experience. The way you get use of those perks is by being good in chase. There's no imaginary alternate path that these perks create that let you use them yet not be good at the game.
What your missing is that WoW is "strong" in the sense as it gives aid throughout the match that otherwise would only be available through learning how the tiles work and memorizing where they are. Survivors don't need to really know hows tiles work unless they are brand new when WoW guides them along it, They pretty much just need to learn the timing of the various killers and mind games in order to play the tile but the tile itself and how to loop it is mute.
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@TieBreaker said:
Ratcheting up punishments isn't guaranteed to increase preferred outcomes. Punishment beyond a certain point doesn't tend to yield positive results.
If you actually want real change, you need identify why players are so quick to give up. It's generally solo players who want out after getting downed once. It's not really an issue with SWF players. So what are solo players experiencing that makes them so prone to giving up instantly? If BHVR can identify those things and find suitable remedies, then the problem has the potential to get a lot better.
So why are SoloQ players giving up so easily?
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Wo0 needs a nerf not because it's inherently strong but because it's a training wheels perk that lets survivors forego having to learn tiles and become efficient through experience.
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People nowadays are soft.
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Lithe
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@Shinkiro said:
That sample size is beyond irrelevant in proving anything at all. Minimums for sample sizes are 100, but realistically its way more than than to determine any kind of real result. (Like 1000+)
Anyway BHVR have already said its an average not a guarantee because there's so many factors that will influence the game. There's also absolutely zero data from you from each game to go off of. Were there any people giving up? Doing challenges and losing because of it? etc etc etc. There's more goals than killing and escaping that influence how people play the game. You will never get an accurate result because of that.
While I agree to an extent that's not really true. Crime statistics don't account for A LOT of things but an inference is made based off what is available and relevant.
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I disagree
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I don't have the slightest clue why people said unknown was in a good spot. He needs buffing, not nerfing.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801734#Comment_3801734
No. I do not wanna be called slurs by the random. They already sandbag me and my team enough.
I would imagine a mute feature would be available.
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Yall are thinking way to much into this. BHVR butchered SM based on complaints not data.
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@Yatol said:
this is why you dont buy chapters for competitive advantage.
How is that even possible? lol
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My post got deleted with no notification. Interesting.
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Just make in-game chat a thing already jeezz and buff killer accordingly. It's not difficult, games have been doing it for years.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801058#Comment_3801058
Your nonsensical hypotheticals aren't relevant at all to this conversation.
If McDonald's replaced all their meat with fried bugs, it would be bad for business. It's also something that's never going to happen.
What are you talking about its 100% relevant… reread the post. replacing meat with bugs is different than telling the customer to F-off take it up with the manufacturer.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800872#Comment_3800872
Then don't play the game. BHVR doesn't need the player base to sign off on every proposed change.
Your right they don't but, if they had to legally send out a notification (Which wouldn't be that hard to do) asking yes or no if you approve of said changes and if not you can get refunded, BHVR and other companies would definitely be more on their toes when it comes to balance instead of this pandering to one-sides complaining and feeling like they are untouchable. I mean cmon bhvr balancing is the most hodgepodge thing I've ever seen.
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@XombieJoker said:
you can't demand a refund for a character purchase that has under gone changes. You bought them, played them and now that they can be nerfed into the ground doesn't mean you are owed compensation. You purchasing the game or character is literally like a rental license, you have access to it however it changes and you can be banned for misconduct and refused a refund. If you don't like Skull Merchant after her change, drop her and find a new main or leave the game entirely, it won't matter to anyone which path you take. People need to stop thinking that when something in the game changes that you are owed something. You get nothing and make due with it or leave the game. If you still think they owe you for nerfing SM, try suing them and let us all know the outcome… I'll put $1000 on what I know the outcome will be
How would you feel if you bought SM and played for a week and then they kill switched her until her rework came?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800872#Comment_3800872
Unless someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play this game, then yes, you do so voluntarily.
Negative ghost rider. Its called a monopoly, a legal monopolization at that. Imagine if stores decided to (Protected by law) discontinue item returns and you would actually now have to get in touch with the manufacturer to get your money back. That would be extremely bad for business, the difference here is we are dealing with the digital landscape of retail. So imagine 10,000 people buy SM right now and 2 days later BVHR killswitchs her until a rework happens whenever that is, tough luck people and people like you would support it because well "They knew what the deal was when they agreed with the EULA before playing the game, they don't have to play this game there are other games out there…" blah blah blah. I would venture to guess every game out there is protected with EULA and it's ethically not right.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800354#Comment_3800354
Why would they do that? Everyone who plays DBD agreed to the terms and conditions of the EULA.
Let me make this abundantly clear: BHVR can change anything they want in the game for any reason at any time. They don't require the player base to approve changes.
Its either agree or you cant play the game. It's hardly voluntary.
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Distortion hard counters from the start of the trial plus 2 more times no matter what.
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I can get on board with that. Bubba without bamboozle is a nerf.
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@Nazzzak said:
If they refunded people every single time they changed a killer or perks or anything else that people had spent money on, they wouldn't be in business very long. You need to be aware of what a live service game is before you spend money on it. Now that you know, you can make more informed purchases in future.
Not true. many businesses thrive despite people returning purchased items.
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How about we think outside the box here.. Let's say for example, that EULA was updated and now if a developer is going to make a change to a character that a automated notification had to be sent out to players who bought said character and associated in-store cells, cosmetics etc asking if they are ok with the recent proposed changes and if not will be refunded and in the future if they ever decide they want to repurchase the character again there is an upcharge on the next repurchase?
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I mean cmon people lets stop pretending that distortion is fine and didn't need this adjustment. It nullifies a category of perks just by loading into a match. There's no activation requirement and to gain more stacks all you need to do is be inside the killers TR….
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@Royval said:
I mean you do have to do gens to get them
Would you be cool with being in chase for a total of 45 seconds granted you 2 coup stacks?
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@Marc_123 said:
Sadly the aura reading is already to much and still getting more and more.
Stealth was a big part of the game. If you are not good in chase you have to be good at hiding.
Was already awful in 2v8 when you hid and killer lost you and suddenly a gen popped and your aura was revealed.
Maybe those survivors should just practice and get better at the game? Why does distortion from the get-go get to block Lethal and BBQ twice with easy enough room to do it again?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798430#Comment_3798430
I can think of a few reasons, but probably the biggest: Right now their data on Skully is likely a mess with how frequently people give up against her. Is the problem her mechanics, or are the mechanics too strong? If you weaken the mechanics and survivors accept playing against her, okay, you just need to find the balance point between where she is now and the new version. If players still absolutely hate her, well then you need a massive rework.
It'll likely be a mix of the above two, but you need the data to tell you how much of a mix.
But that's why I asked the question in this section of the forums. Balance needs to be about balance and not unjustifiable outcry because one side doesn't like something even though there is counter to it. I want to know what is the "thing" the devs use to adjust value and change mechanics around to better suit a perk or power to the gameplay. If it's just about the money BHVR why don't you do the honest thing and give the people who paid for SM and put in the time to P100 her there money back plus cells and shards.
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The problem from a general perspective is the inconsistency of a balancing approach that we all can see and look at and so "Oh ok, I get why this needed a bit of tuning". Pig is a great example, buffed (nerfed) her ambush but took away box auras. They seem to have noticed based on whatever info that her ambush wasn't getting used a lot or that it felt weak or that when it was used didn't land any hits so it needed a buff but why simultaneously did they feel a counter was needed to such a weak "buff" that box aura should no longer be a "thing" and what data did they look at to come to this conclusion. It would be nice to know these things.
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Whats the point of nerfing her, having a PTB with her being apart of it, make changes once the PTB is over to just further down the road do a complete rework anyways? is it to shut people up about her? mine aswell leave her be until then unless BHVR doesn't really plan on doing anything with her for a long long good while… Seems pointless.
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Agreed. As far in left field as this may sound im starting to feel as a game gains momentum in popularity over time and reaches a certain player count that there should be some sort of governing body that over sees and gives imput aswell as has some sort of direct say on the balancing aspect of the game. I say this because regardless of this being a "live-service game" real money is being taken, real money purchased on a character for whatever reason they decided to buy said character.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792266#Comment_3792266
That would be worse, because excessively hiding survivors could recharge tokens even if they are in the other side of the map from the killer.
Can't get tokens back being close to the killer. Now its a problem to be far from the killer to get tokens. Do you hate this perk? Also, excessively hiding? Please define that, as we are kind of supposed to hide sometimes. 'Excessively' would be very hard to reach.
That is why the best nerf would be for the perk to just block all aura reading for the first 80/100/120 seconds of the trial, then deactivate for the rest of the trial.
So you want Distortion just gone from the game. Your submitted change guts it, and makes it useless for its purpose. Chances are you'll get your wish, but I dont think even BHVR gut perks this hatefully.
Because let’s be honest here, even if Distortion only could have 3 tokens the entire trial, it still would often allow the survivor to manually dodge all the aura reading, since the perk announced which aura reading perks the killer had.
That survivor would really need to be paying attention and using their head. Definitely need to penalize that.
I've also heard the warcry to nerf Distortion resting on this talking piece: Distortion users hide all game and screw their team.
As this was touched on briefly above, that's quite dishonest from my experience. Everyone else's experience might be diff, but survivors do not rampantly use Distortion to hide all match as claimed on these forums. Its just an avenue to attack Distortion since there is little else to say about it. And if you do come across that, I would wager its not common. At all.
In the end, Its there to combat aura builds. It does its job swimmingly. Naturally, it will be gutted.
Not every build a killer uses is either all regression or all aura so I'm not sure if your implying that's the reason why distortion is fine or not so correct me if I'm wrong. Say I'm playing as Pig and I decide to run Lethal, BBQ, Deadlock and Corrupt, why does one perk with no activation requirement, cool down etc get to almost indefinitely shutdown half my build?
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I haven't been impacted directly to where I notice but none the less to be fair to the overall state of the game Behavior needs to change the values to reassurance and monstrous to compensate other wise its a direct buff and nerf that are not part of the roadmap.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791925#Comment_3791925
That is why I gave it one token at the start. One aura block is free. Lethal Pursuer or whatever comes first. This way the killer has the chance to notice that the perk exists. And it keeps the stealth aspect many users like. Many users tell me that they don't like Lethal because they don't know it'a active at the start. Or that NTH is difficult to evade (where do 32m around a gen end?). The information the perk provides is also insane.
But after one use, they need to engage with the killer to gain more stealth. You can chase and hook them and use your aura perks on other survivors after.
I mean you don't need direct knowledge that the killer used Lethal do you? you can assume they have it by the fact that the killer is coming towards you or a teammate at the start plus it shouldn't completely negate Lethal. I'm glad you brought up NTH, its a perk that gives potentially really valuable info aslong as I approach a gen being worked on, kick it and hopefully the survivor is within range. The difference between your aura being revealed and it not is HUGE.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
I don't think any of the perk's properties are the problem. The REAL problem is that it incentivises the killer to "tunnel" or better: focus on only 2 people. I have been playing with 2 friends who both use Distortion. In many of our games we end up me and the random being on death hook while my friends weren't hooked once. I also noticed that as killer myself if I play with aura perks. If I can't see you I will go for people I CAN see.
In addition tokens will refill when being stealthy. This means that they will get more stealth when being stealthy, which is imo an unhealthy design.
Therefore I proposed the following nerf some time ago:
Distortion starts at 1 Token. For each 20s in chase, you get a Token up to 3.
The rest stays as it is.
This way players have to engage a bit with the Killer to gain stealth in return. All other stealth perks require you to do something actively like getting hooked or being injured. 20s should be doable even for players who play more stealthy. But I will tell you something: you are hiding because you are bad at looping. How about you get a bit out of your comfort zone so you don't need to hide as much anymore?
i like your idea but the problem with the perk itself is that it hard counters from the get go. I think it needs to require an activation to actually be able to start getting some value, sort of like coup.
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The problem I have with distortion isn't the unhealthy play style it creates for soloQ, I couldn't care less about that. I'm not loading into a match as say Pig and thinking after my Lethal and BBQ get hard-countered "Oh dear, these 2 players who pretty much are going to be able to indefinitely counter half my build the entire match are totally going to throw the game for there teammates so they can be stealthy and therefore I might win because of there selfishness so its not all bad". I'm wondering how a single perk can make 2 of my perks completely useless throughout the entire trial wiith no activation requirement or cool down.
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None because this is a horror game and not a cross promotional money flimflam
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@100PercentBPMain said:
Our mammal brains enjoy seeing perk value and hate to see perk get no value. I think it's just as simple as that tbh.
Thats a dumb response