Blueberry
Blueberry
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390092#Comment_3390092
"If you were having surgery done would you want “everyone’s” opinion on how the surgery should be done to matter? Or would you just want the people experienced and trained in surgery getting an opinion on your surgery? Something to think about as we put the “majorities” opinion into determining balance changes when the majority doesn’t understand the games balance and many have a bias view point."
I don't know if that's the best example. That surgery can have life altering consequences and so of course you would want an expert opinion and not your friend's. It's more like if I wanted to know if an outfit looked good on me. I don't need a fashion designer to tell me if it does look good. Someone that just has a bit of knowledge in fashion and eyes can tell me that.
I'm probably not using the best example either but point being I don't think you need experts to comment on something such as this.
You already mentioned it but that’s not exactly an accurate comparison.
Fashion is subjective, hence asking most people and not relying on a fashion designer makes sense.
A lot of issues in DBD are objective as we can look at the numbers in objective times, average chases ect. Yes before we go there, not ALL are objective, just many. Objective things you would want the “experts” rather than popular opinion, even if it’s not something as extreme as surgery.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390092#Comment_3390092
Balancing around top tier play is not a good way to balance a game. The entire point to balancing is to make the game as fair and fun as possible for the most people possible. Only looking at high tier play which covers a tiny percentage of players will not achieve that.
@topic While I can see an argument for this I feel the core issue still revolves around BHVR. Specifically their inability to create balanced maps. Maps cause the biggest swing imo.
Balancing for the top does not hurt the lower players as we have an mmr system that would change their number until they were back to winning and losing exactly as much as they were before. So it doesn’t really hurt them but now the top is actually balanced. Balancing for the top also gives all players agency in the outcome of a match as they can always improve at the game. Balancing for the bottom leaves higher end players with no agency and at the mercy of bad balance. All players need agency in games.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390092#Comment_3390092
Id also like to briefly mention:
- Yes, there are people who purposefully throw matches, this can lead to skewed killrates.
- This also does not consider people who farm or purposely let certain Survivors go, this can also lead to skewed killrates.
Also I disagree with the idea that the "majority" (casual) are influencing balance decisions when a lot of the changes being made are harmful to casual players; furthermore the new/less-experienced players' experience is being made further complicated and overwhelming.
The healing changes, for example, Ive seen a lot of high-level players disagree with, because it does not agree some of the actual issues with the game (such as toolboxes remaining untouched and Generator repair speed-up remaining untouched). It is something neither high-level nor casual players can get behind, at least from what Ive seen.
Meanwhile you have people spouting that "the next patch will kill the game" and "Killers are leaving the game (here is why)" but I seriously just cant help but wonder if this is a product of our creation, like, could we - as a community - prevented this from happening?
There are way, way, way less farming killers than suicides, so definitely not a close comparison at all. The suicides are a multiple times on a daily basis whereas I can’t even remember the last farm match I saw. The skews are definitely much more in one direction.
Also I completely disagree on balancing against casuals. There are some changes that are worse for casuals but the games casual player base is extremely catered to and balanced for to an extremely larger extent, like it’s not even close. Way too much for that matter. By and large the game is balanced around players with sub 100 hours.
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The majority of people don’t play dbd at a high level which is where the balance problems come out. This in turn leaves the majority of people voicing balance opinions not actually understanding the games balance.
A second point is one that many already mention but it’s an asymmetrical game which means there will always be vastly more vocal people in favor of one side which can give a very skewed perception of the communities opinion on a change.
If you were having surgery done would you want “everyone’s” opinion on how the surgery should be done to matter? Or would you just want the people experienced and trained in surgery getting an opinion on your surgery? Something to think about as we put the “majorities” opinion into determining balance changes when the majority doesn’t understand the games balance and many have a bias view point.
When we’re on the topic of who to blame for balance problems, something else to consider is all the people suiciding on hook further skewing data. Something that is highly prevalent. While they say they don’t solely look at data for changes which there are a few examples to support this, their history tends to illustrate that the data does run their changes the vast, vast majority of the time to a detriment.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389938#Comment_3389938
I love that add on.
Yeah I mean the carrion is probably the only absolute required addon which honestly needs to be basekit but the hands just make her way more enjoyable to me.
I wish they’d weaken her anti loop and improve her long range snipe game play. Would make her way more fun to play as and against as well as more skillful. I only enjoy her for the sniping but against good players it’s just an instant locker jump in and out rendering a lot of that useless and making most your hits against good players more close range/anti loop which isn’t as fun. I don’t really know why the locker counter play exists when the skill is supposed to be each players trying to predict the other players movement. Takes a lot of the interaction away.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388552#Comment_3388552
Isn't the main issue with balancing at the top for dbd is killers need to camp and tunnel. Wouldn't the issue mostly be the strategy at the top levels are horrendously bad for the games health?
^ This. The literal only reason top level dbd is not fun IS because of what is considered winning in the game, ie kills. If the game based winning off hooks instead of kills this entire premise of “we shouldn’t balance around top level players” and top level dbd is boring, goes completely out the window . So yeah balancing for the top would be the best thing with only the smallest of tweaks to the game. Make mmr based on hooks, not kills, and reward spreading hooks.
The game incentivizes killers to play in the camp/tunnel way since that’s what it is balanced around and what is considered winning, not hooks.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389522#Comment_3389522
You mean the Severed Hands with Artist?
Yeah
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Knight - Call to arms and map of the realm
Dredge - Haddies calendar and boat key
Artist - carrion and gloves
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389300#Comment_3389300
Yes! that's why I'm the first before the patch comes xD remember that
Well the healing debuff is only on 2 totems which you rarely have two up at once for very long at all. The downside of the plaything/pentimento is that it can take a while to get going and the games almost over by the time it does. They’re pretty easy to remove as well.
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I was so excited for a new meta where gen regression perks or tunneling wasn’t going to be necessary in high end matches so it’s pretty disappointing that they’re probably going to pull back on the healing changes.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388897#Comment_3388897
People want a meta shake-up. They just don't want their meta shook up.
This is so facts lol. Everyone wants the strong thing nerfed on the other side, just not theirs.
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Pentimento is fine. Never heard anyone complain about this before.
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If they revert the healing changes then they need to revert the gen regression perk nerfs as well as that only made sense along side the healing slow down.
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Unfortunate it won’t because they’re probably going to revert a good bit of the healing nerfs.
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I hope it goes live as is. Bar the Billy changes anyway.
Saying survivors shouldn't have to run healing perks is ridiculous. That's entirely what is supposed to be shaking up the meta. If you bring Altruistic heals back to 16 seconds no one runs healing perks and we go back to the same meta as before bar DH and CoH because now no one needs healing perks since it's so fast.
Also, killers have been required to run gen slow down perks or tunnel when it's good vs good players for literally years. Why is now being required to run perks an issue when it's on survivor but it's been totally fine on killer?
If it goes live as is we'll see some different perks on killer and survivor in the meta. If they pull back on the healing then we go right back to requiring gen regression stacking or tunneling and barely much changes with survivors generally running the same perks as well bar a DH or CoH.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387944#Comment_3387944
So you want to force them into two bad options instead of one.
Force the game to slow down how it needs to be. That's how we make gen regression perks or tunneling not required when it's good vs good.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387944#Comment_3387944
You want to make it impossible for survivors to win right more nerfs how is a duo or trio supposed to win
What are you talking about? It's already extremely easy.
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People tend to exaggerate a lot. They will still be playing. The only small drop off would probably be more related to some other game releases popping up soon.
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Weak, but better than people think he is. This is also all pre PTB. Depending what goes through this could be a large buff to him.
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@Trollinmon said:
Just people scared of change and the uncertainty that can come with it. Keep in the mind that playing this game is their job. No game=no job. From what I've been seeing it's basically this patch will kill the game and then they just leave it at that. Some don't even understand that the regression nerfs and healing are tied changes.
It’s pretty wild how nearly no one is considering those two changes in tandem and how they’re tied together and only talking about the healing changes in an isolated topic. That’s a very good point.
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He’s one of my main killers I play so I’ll list a few issues.
- Addon dependency: He actually has quite a few good and interesting addons so no issues there. However, the base time to escape a locker is way too long to where you speed a good chuck of the match just breaking out of locks which not only hurts his strength but also makes him not fun to a lot of people. This here makes Haddies Calendar required right off the bat. Even with this addon they have more than enough time to react and prevent surprises, without the addon it’s a joke. Second, the main fun for him comes from making mid chase locker teleport outplays. This is unviable without haddies calendar as it’s too slow and gives too much reaction time but the other issue is how slow the teleport is to make this viable without nightfall. This is where Boatkey feels required to me. Boatkey just barely makes this play style playable. So even though he has many interesting addons you could experiment with he’s stuck being forced to run those two to make the mid chase teleport viable which is the main thing making him fun in the first place and honestly even with those two addons it’s barely viable. Good survivors still generally have too much time to react to it so you’re still stuck hoping they’re not the best.
- Nightfall lackluster: I’m referencing the visuals/sound here more so. Essentially a lot of the stealthiness and surprise which is suppose to be the entire point of this is ruined because they make him light up like a Christmas tree and easy to see. Secondly he’s ridiculously loud. So even if you don’t see him you end up hearing him a mile away.
- His volume: this is similar to nightfall sound issue but in general it’s harder to mind game things with him because his sounds are so loud that they always know where you’re at in the loop even if they can’t see you.
- Lockers/locks/map dependency: Similar to the addon dependency section. Some maps lack lockers and some have extremely bad placement. On top of this the correlation between time it takes you to break out of a lock and the time it takes survivors to lock them is all out of wack. Breaking out of a locker needs to be faster at base and the animation to lock a locker for survivors shouldn’t be as easy as it is, it should take them at least twice the speed it currently does. It’s nearly all reward no cost.
- Bugs: Main thing here is how they STILL force you to always come out of the locked locker if there’s two lockers connected and only ones locked. This has been in the game since his PTB and still continues to now. The survivors know this and abuse it by always only locking one at a time if they’re connected. Please fix, it’s bad design.
TLDR: Fix Bugs. Faster teleport outside of Nightfall. Faster locker exit outside of Nightfall. Longer time to lock lockers. More lockers/Better locker placement on some maps.
That’s the main issues with him. I do wish they’d remove the “thud” sound of you teleporting to lockers though and in turn shorten the timer it takes for the visual to appear showing you’re in there. The main warning to survivors should be the sound of breaking out rather than the teleport. This would create so many more mind game opportunities which is what makes him fun.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384195#Comment_3384195
It will most certainly increase tunneling. Healing will be not worth it most of the time. Which means slamming gens is the only reasonable play. Which means gens will go faster. Which means killers will feel the need to tunnel more to increase pressure.
That’s why they should add a debuff while injured, something like 10% slower gens while injured to motivate them to still heal.
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I agree as well. I’d rather keep the gen regression perks in their nerfed state and keep the healing at 24 seconds though. I like the move away from having gen regression required.
One of the best patches they’ve had in a while. Unfortunately they’re going to listen to the casual player complaining instead of improving and revert a good bit of the healing changes I expect. Hope I’m wrong.
Overall they did a great job this patch though. I like the direction they’re heading.
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I’ve mained Twins for a couple years so I’ll give my thoughts.
I agree with all your normal changes other than holding a slugged person down with Victor, it’s unneeded.
Weird change of speed up when switching isn’t necessary, just make the swap faster.
The Victor hostage situation is one of her big issues. Either she should be able to recall Victor much faster or give Charlotte Undetectable while Victor is attached to anyone. There essentially needs to be more punishment for taking him hostage or not allow it all together.
Remove the 5 second stun on successful pounces, this is such bad design. You’re punishing people for playing well and makes her not fun for many people because of this.
Referencing her addons as you did, essentially all of the addons that mention “crushing Victor while idle” are useless and need to just say “crushing Victor”. The while idle kills them entirely as that is almost never happening.
That’s it, all she needs. Her slugging design is not a problem as there are already a ridiculous amount of counters for this.
Her biggest issue was how ridiculously overtuned healing was but now that’s being balanced out.
Personal flavor but I really wish Victor worked with perks as it kills most build ideas but I understand that might be too much.
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Either remove the killers red stain or hide the survivor hud entirely. It needs a buff regardless.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378411#Comment_3378411
out of curiosity which ones do you not agree on?
CoB/Overcharge stacking. I don’t think this is an issue at all.
Myers Tombstone. This is more of a meme build than anything. You wouldn’t actually run this if you were just trying to have the best chance of winning. Since you’re apply zero pressure and taking extra long to hit t3 against even decent survivors the gates will be powered by then unless they’re just playing bad. Not an issue.
That’s probably the only 2.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385342#Comment_3385342
I’m liking the idea of a repair speed penalty while injured. We have people on these forums that think it might be easier to just do generators while injured, so they might need an incentive to heal.
The only change I would make, is the repair speed penalty should only happen if the survivor is injured but not broken. I wouldn’t want to punish survivors for not healing, if the game was preventing them from healing, especially because killers like Plague and Legion can cause survivors to become injured.
Oh absolutely. I would add that stipulation as well, they shouldn’t be punished if they literally can’t heal.
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Very happy with the updated DH notes. Deactivated after use and not successful use is a significant difference.
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That would be a buff which is nice but it’s still terrible. For only 4 tokens it needs to be at least 25% to be worth considering. At 20% it’s still not going to be ran by anyone.
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No you weren’t tunneling. Even the same person hooked twice in a row isn’t tunneling unless you intentionally ignored other people that were just as easy of a down.
That said, if a survivor was on a gen at 90% are they going to then leave the gen to start a new one so they aren’t tunneling their objective? No, they won’t, so it’s a double standard.
I don’t personally tunnel but only because it’s not fun for me personally. Objectively though it is the smartest decision and totally fair since the survivors will be tunneling theirs. I tend to run stronger than normal addons regularly which I view as still fair because in exchange for running those it allows me to play a super fair game for the survivors which I’m sure most survivors would prefer over weaker addons but tunneling.
Tunneling is never going to change though until the devs change the objective for winning from kills to hooks (this actually makes more sense lore wise as well) and actually reward hooking different survivors base kit. Something like hooking a survivor for the first time applies a permanent 10% gen progression slow down. This gives people who tunnel zero reward, but does reward the killers that keep going for a new person every time.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384499#Comment_3384499
I suspect we are going to see more thanataphobia to counter that though. If healing is nerfed, and spreading pressure being buffed, thana is going to be buffed. This is going to force the survivors to stop and heal at least sometimes which should significantly slow the game down.
You don't need gen regression, or defense, if you have survivors doing something that isn't generators.
This is kind of what I’m expecting as well which is why I’m more okay with the gen regression nerfs as I’m hoping we’ll get the slow down in the form of healing. The only thing I’m worried about is ignoring healing and just gen rushing. This is kind of why I’ve always thought staying injured should have some down side like a hypothetical “10% slower gens while injured” or something like that. We’ll have to wait and see how it pans out though, maybe not necessary.
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I’m pretty positive that it is not increasing recovery time. Last time recovery time was shortened it had nothing to do with the increase on healing, they simply wanted recovery to be faster because people complained about slugging so much.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
If the healing changes go through then Autodidact does not need any changes.
And Lightweight is an amazing perk. It should not be anywhere near this list.
I have a feeling autodidact is gonna be really good if these changes go through.
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Make blastmine take 33% of a gen to activate like wiretap.
Revert Thana to its old version.
Distressing should also cause your TR to linger on survivors for a few seconds after you leave.
Leverage needs the duration removed since it’s numbers are so low.
Hysteria apply on survivors losing a health state, not just healthy to injured.
Deerstalker should be map wide and slow recovery speed.
Grim Embrace should also block gens for a smaller duration on each survivors first hook.
Technician should silence the gen completely.
Make Calm Spirit also silence footstep sounds.
Bite the Bullet should silence everything anytime you are involved in a heal and hide their auras.
There’s some to get started.
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My main issue is how low their reward is, like they barely even feel worth doing. Their blood point amount needs to be literally like tripled. 90k is worth my time, but 30k is a waste of it.
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Basically yeah.
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Accurate.
Now you can substitute gen regression perks for tunneling, but yeah using neither option? Outside of a few top tiers none are viable unless the survivors are just bad.
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PR was completely gutted and will never be seen again after these changes. Which if they stick with the healing nerfs I’m okay with as we’re moving around where the gen slow down is coming from. I like the concept they’re going for in rewarding killers who play fair except the reward is supposed to match the extra difficulty of playing fair and this misses it by a mile.
DH won’t be ran nearly as much but will still be seen quite a bit, definitely not dead. A fair nerf.
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Agreed, people are overreacting because they’re too used to how op it is currently.
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People are overreacting to the healing nerf without realizing it’s being offset by all the gen regression perks being killed. They’re just shifting the slow down from perks to healing. This is a good change because it makes gen regression perks less required and instead makes the slow down base kit if you’re good at pressuring the survivors and rewards tunneling killers much, much less. So while each change may seem extreme isolated, they will be good together. I am worried good survivors will just ignore healing and go full gen rush though. I feel like there needed to be some small incentive to make the healing more required like a hypothetical “10% slower gens while injured” or something. We’ll test it out though.
One of the best mid chapters we’ve ever had and a step in the right direction. I hope they don’t cave and start backtracking on the changes coming to live.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384345#Comment_3384345
that would be an awesome idea to show off your improvements as you rise up the ranks
Exactly! People want to be able to visually see their improvement in the form of mmr/ranks, this game is missing that though.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382257#Comment_3382257
do you think the new patch is going to fix any of that?
Fix? No. Better? Somewhat. It's at least moving in the right direction.
Nothings being done in the new patch to address the last point though. They just need to let people see their own mmr's, it's an easy fix. MMR/Rank rewards would be a nice bonus touch.
Honestly the grade system being shown but not for matchmaking is just confusing for new players and realistically serves no practical purpose. They should attach mmr to grades. IE something like a 1400 MMR makes you a "green" grade, so the grades represent the MMR.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384214#Comment_3384214
One of the most interestings meta shake ups I've ever seen. Even to the intended playstyles holy damn.
6.1.0 is little boy compared to this
Yeah that's part of why I like it, it's going to shuffle the meta up a lot.
I also really like that they're trying to move the game slow down into base kit in the form of split pressure and injuring survivors rather than in the form of stacking gen slow down perks. I'm excited to see where this goes even if I do think it's still missing a few pieces.
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One of the best mid chapters we've ever had.
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This does the opposite and de-incentivizes tunneling as it encourages the killer to spread pressure.
By this broad of a definition of "increasing tunneling" we could almost say anything increases tunneling. "insert random killer buff" increases tunneling since it's harder to save.
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"I disagree, a majority of the community plays SoloQ so it does have a huge impact and isnt a waste of time."
Pretty sure we saw stats recently that didn't agree with this. Especially at higher mmr almost all matches are at least a duo minimum.
You essentially never answered my point though. How do we nerf swf without hurting solo queue. Almost everything you do for swf is gonna hurt solo queue.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384142#Comment_3384142
It's not about "just requiring healing perks", it's the fact that SoloQ is specifically going to need them. SWF (especially top tier SWFs) wont be affected as much since they can coordinate and make sure they always have someone healthy to make unhooks/trades while others heals. SoloQ lacks that, even after the HUD changes.
This is ignoring the fact that SWF can remove weak links to begin with, getting hits (and gaining pressure) can be difficult for the Killer who is facing a SWF, which will overall just lead to less situations where trades are even needed for an unhook to occur. This change is negatively impactful to SoloQ since they (as you might expect) have a variety of skill levels that are seemingly random.
It's impossible to avoid this though. Nearly any change you do is going to effect solo queue more, so it feels like trying to balance around that so heavily is a waste of time.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383264#Comment_3383264
The issue is the short time window to heal two Survivors, you only have 12 seconds to make an unhook before the Survivor reaches second stage. Healing Perks, Reassurance, and Kinship are going to be necessary if people decide to use this strategy.
I dont think many people will bring this perk, nor will people use this strategy often, but I think it has the potential to be nasty, especially if SoloQ players arent readily bringing a build to counter it.
What's wrong with requiring healing perks?
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@Tsunami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384111#Comment_3384111
I would rather start with a small amount the see the effect. I appreciate that behavior put their work into balancing but their changes are too drastic, more consistent perk updates with smaller adjustments would be more precise in balancing and less hard for players to adapt.
I agree with the concept you're going for of start low and test it out. The problem is that after thousands of hours we can instantly tell if something is straight up bad or not. For the "test first" thing it needs to at least be at a passable level to see how it is. It's current PTB form is not even at the passable level and it's literally so bad it's not even worth testing yet. After enough hours in the game you can immediately tell if somethings good or not to a decent level.
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PR is definitely dead after this nerf. No one's going to run that anymore. For people to run that with 4 tokens only, require a scourge hook, and requiring very fair play you'd have to have at least 25% regression per token to make people even start considering it.