Blueberry
Blueberry
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PR is completely dead. Your absolute best case scenario is you get 4 PR procs...that's it. That is assuming you play extremely fair as well. That is garbage for gen regression. No one will be running PR anymore.
I think with the increase to healing times and nerfs to gen regression we're just going to see a non healing meta where everyone just stays injured and rushes gens.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379306#Comment_3379306
As a killer I never use these perks anyway. Jolt seems to be far superior for me, and it requires you to be present in the area you're pressuring anyway.
Jolt + aura and/or chase perks does me well.
Yeah I didn't particularly run them either. Jolt was my main slow down which now is hilariously probably the best regression perk in the game. Didn't think I'd see that ever. However now we're gonna see everyone defaulting Jolt so its usage will sky rocket and then it will get nerfed for having too high of a usage lol.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379276#Comment_3379276
The gen kick perks are literally the biggest gripe about killers at the moment, their ability to hold down a 3 gen with no real competition due to the CoB/Overcharge/NtH combo. So this is the ideal killer perk nerf.
I'm also a bit perplexed about Pain res though, this still isn't the strongest regression perk, and it already has the Scourge hook requirement. I would have sooner seen the regression value reduced before this.
Yeah I get the complaints on the whole 3 gen thing, I've just never had issues breaking 3 gens even in solo queue so this felt like more of a skill issue. That said, with almost every slow down perk hitting the chopping block people will still probably use these just because there aren't many options left.
PR literally got nuked. So even with you playing completely fair as a killer your best case scenario is 4 procs from PR..that's it. Ouch that's bad.
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Overall very good changes. Glad they finally listened to the community.
I think the gen kick perks were a little overkill though, I don't see many people using them now.
PR nerf was also a bit weird. The only reason its usage was so high was because they nerfed everything else so it just got defaulted as one of the few options left. It's a dead perk now for sure though, no one's going to use that. I very much like the concept they were going for in rewarding healthy game play and it not working for people just tunneling, but the issue is the perk isn't good enough to warrant the downside. The reward for playing fair needs to match the cost of in fact playing fair. Like I generally almost never tunnel so this perk should look great to me since I'll get its full value but it doesn't, it looks really bad even if I get its full value because that full value is very, very low.
Finally I'm really happy with the flashlight changes. I've been saying how items directly countering killer powers is an outdated feature that they themselves have stated they didn't want in the game years ago. However, that Hag change...like what? This is actually a huge nerf to Hag, who is already one of the least played killers in the game. She needs a good buff now after this.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378476#Comment_3378476
But necessary for what? Only for a 4k, or for any kills at all? A 4k is a straigt win for the killer, but not a balanced result, but most killers will always try to get the 4k, and thus, tunnel.
Lets say you can get a 2k easily without tunneling (which i think is the state of the game actually). Them people would still tunnel to get the 4k.
So making tunneling not necessary for a 4k means killers get the 4k anyway. Why should survivors play at that point?
"but most killers will always try to get the 4k, and thus, tunnel."
I disagree. Just because they want a 4k doesn't mean they're always going to tunnel.
"Lets say you can get a 2k easily without tunneling (which i think is the state of the game actually). Them people would still tunnel to get the 4k."
You are only getting a 2k "easily" in the current state of the game if you're going against potatoes at low mmr or you're tunneling. I want the game balanced around a 2k without tunneling and playing fairly against equally skilled high mmr swf.
"So making tunneling not necessary for a 4k means killers get the 4k anyway. Why should survivors play at that point?"
No, it does not. If you made the changes I talked about I would also want more measures in place to make tunneling way, way harder and less efficient to do. Your statement is very hyperbolic.
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It will be quite disappointing if the map wasn't also shrunk down.
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Very true. It’s bad design to have items directly counter killers and they’ve stated this in the past when they removed the breaking on trapper traps. They need to remove the light burn from wraith, trap removal on hag and bird removal on Artist.
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Not as sure about 5, maybe just a tone down. Otherwise the rest are all great points.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378521#Comment_3378521
you can have normal ping with that icon, because it's not showing ping but packet loss...you can have low ping but high packet loss hence the two different icons in teh game.
What can cause the packet loss and how can we fix that?
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I’m expecting Alien if it’s licensed or a vampire killer if it’s original. Either way hype. I think licensed is way more likely though.
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Why stagger though? The perk has nothing to do with stagger.
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I agree, they need to try the carrot more than the stick.
I’m glad you mention Grim Embrace as that is a prime example of a perk that should get buffed tremendously as it encourages very healthy game play and doesn’t work for unhealthy game play.
They perks that reward fair and fun game play should be the ones to get buffed the most to incentive it.
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@AGM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378628#Comment_3378628
Taking Victor hostage is already not a thing, since you can recall Victor after pouncing on a healthy survivor after a little bit of time.
That’s incorrect. They can hold Victor for a very long time before you are able to call him back. That’s literally part of the strategy for playing against Twins.
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Allow him to close hatch as well as snuffing boons.
Remove the DS stun on successful down. Stop punishing someone for playing well, it just feels terrible.
Nerf CoH self heals/medkits.
Make taking Victor hostage not a thing.
Now they’re solid.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378490#Comment_3378490
Definitely. I’d put Wiretap in low A tier probably. It would be higher if it worked with Open-Handed but it actually doesn’t (and it’s intended that it doesn’t). But that’s still a really good build because Open-Handed + Kindred is just so strong.
Oh interesting I suppose I hadn’t paid too much attention to the range specifically. I hadn’t realized they didn’t work. Yeah an open handed kindred though is ridiculous aura reading.
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@GannTM said:
You are sleeping hard on Wiretap. It’s very underrated, I would go as far to say it’s an under the radar S tier perk in solo queue mainly. You can get value out of that perk about every game.
Kind of funny to see someone else mention this. I don’t know if I’d go as far as S tier, but it is low key actually pretty dang good. I’ve been just running meme builds and I did Wiretap, Kindred, Open Handed and Blastmine to discourage kicks. You get massive aura reading across the map. When they know you’re at the loop they almost never will kick it before chasing. Trying to mind game shack or a jungle gym when they see your aura the entire time? Yeah, it’s not happening. No one runs it but yeah it’s quite good. It turned out a bit better than a meme build.
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I’m down for making tunneling less effective if we make it less necessary and slow the game down.
That said, I vehemently disagree with the notion that the main reason killers tunnel is because it’s the easiest route to winning. Do many do this? Of course. But I do not think that it is even remotely the majority. The majority that tunnel do so because they feel it’s necessary and would do it way less if the game was better balanced.
So while I am in favor of making tunneling more difficult I do hypothetically in this scenario think that if you had solely added more objectives for survivors you would indeed see a massive decrease in tunneling even though some would still do it.
This is the crux of the controversial topic though. Some people think the majority of tunneling is because it’s easy and some think the majority is because of how unbalanced the game is making it necessary in many games.
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I don’t like having perks/items that directly counter a killers power so I’m not really a fan of this. This is why I think flashlights on hag traps and on wraith should be removed as well. Beneficial is fine, just not a direct counter as much as some of those are or a perk that blocks killer instinct would be.
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Other than maybe a couple I agree with most all of these. Good points.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378331#Comment_3378331
No, he proposed a bunch of additional conditions that would prevent survivors from abusing this mechanic, the exact reason why the system that was once tested wasn't added to the game.
So OP pretty much suggested a bunch of additional conditions that could very well fix the problems the old system had, and yet you are saying there is no need to test it because it's pretty much the same?
He did propose a few extra caveats for abuse but it looks like the core issues would still be in place from before. Like I said earlier though I’m down for them testing it on the PTB I just don’t think we’d see different results and even if we did there would still need to be a substantial amount of other changes implemented simultaneously to make it a good change for the game overall.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378313#Comment_3378313
When either a survivor or killer is near a hook it pauses?
But then how is that even remotely the same as the suggestions made in this post? In that case, what OP suggested has not been tested yet, and it would be smart to actually test this type of system. Why claim something has already been tested if it hasn't?
That essentially is what he proposed.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377753#Comment_3377753
It was tested? As far as I know, the only solution that was tested was for the hook timer being paused and that's it. Where all other additional conditions for the hook timer to be paused a part of that test as well? Or not?
It was essentially survivor and killer near hook it pauses, generally speaking.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377096#Comment_3377096
its his design. He's power-up steath killer. Its like a vampire. you are weak vampire during the day and a powerful vampire at night. Its like saying why is Oni and Plague are weak without their ability but strong with their ability. Its just how they were designed.
I don't find dredge good because nightfall is not very good stealth tool. They also have habit of putting ambient noises on all other stealth killers. Clearly they do not want these killer to be very stealthy.
Yes I understand the concept. My point is more that the weak state is too weak and the strong state isn’t good enough/lasts too short.
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I don’t think she’s better at a 3 gen, I think she’s objectively worse. However this feels like an overall nerf to an already weak killer. It made her better at things she’s still not good at but made her only viable strategy worse. This killer needs an entire rework, she fundamentally broken.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377753#Comment_3377753
This was tested literally 5 or 6 years ago.
The game was actually extremely Survivor-sided then.
It should be tested again today. Maybe it results in the same, maybe it's a viable solution. Th game is so different now that I think it's worth testing it in a PTB, what harm could come from it?
I wouldn't mind it being tested again but even though the game has changed a lot since then the fundamental reasons it did not work then have not changed. There would need to be quite a bit of other significant changes to come with it simultaneously to realistically expect a different result.
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We get people posting this exact solution every few months for the past 6 years.
It was tested long ago and was a total failure as survivor abused it. That's why it hasn't been implemented.
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Just something to point out. I wish we'd stop strawmanning that killers think they need to tunnel "every game" to win. 99% of killer only players even on these forums do not think that. This misrepresentation happens a lot as it's very easy to argue against and mock them. Most players in general say there are many games where you need to tunnel to win, full stop, that's it. Not even most games, just many games. Rant over.
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Honestly might even be weaker than the old version. She needs a full on rework.
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I disagreed with a couple things but overall a pretty good video and I agree with most it.
As Edgar mentioned not being able to see our own MMR is a big issue as well and hiding it makes zero sense. The only legitimate reason to hide it is because it doesn't actually work well and we can't complain about it if we can't see it. Hiding MMR because of "elitism" is a joke.
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I can understand disliking them on certain killers but overall I vastly prefer indoor maps. They're some of the better designed maps in my opinion.
They have enough LoS blockers to discourage hold w game play and call outs of your location to swf players. They also generally have way less abusable loops and much more that are balanced. I would say they in general play out differently as well, whereas most outdoor maps are a lot of copy/paste same layouts with just a different splash of paint on them while all still playing decently similar.
In terms of fun and balance I'd almost always prefer an indoor map on either side.
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Yeah it's completely terrible. It makes DL look good..and DL is a trash perk currently.
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It’s enough to never have to pay for a single unlicensed character and still have enough left to get multiple cosmetics here and there with the extra.
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@Gibberish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377195#Comment_3377195
I think a better, and probably simpler to program/implement, system would just have it be based on number of Generators at the end of the match.
5 gens? Killer curbstomped the Survivors.
3-4 Gens left ? Killer did pretty well, Survivors did poorly.
2-1 Gens left? An about even match.
0 Gens left with 0-1 escapes? Survivors did pretty well, Killer did poorly.
0 Gens left with multiple escapes? Survivors curbstomped the Killer.
Hatch escapes shouldnt matter in either direction, as it's literally just RNG.
Yeah I'd be okay with that as well. Would also be much more accurate than kills.
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Unfortunate most loops are forced breaks, that’s the bad design and why everyone pre drops. Though you have to be able to tell which ones are the less safe loops that you can play without breaking.
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Realistically it shouldn’t be measured by kill rate at all as it’s flawed for a multitude of reasons. While still having some issues hooks would be significantly more accurate in measuring balance. Hook snapshots would also be way more accurate measured at the time of last gen complete than at end of match. There are so many kills/hooks at end game from cheese and people hook bombing because they don’t want that last guy to die which skews the stats a lot single handedly and is not reflective at all of game balance.
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I could see this as being a valid point.
My main gripe is how bad he is outside of Nightfall. I feel like Boat Key and Haddies Calendar are required addons just to make it passable, wish those effects were base. He actually has quite a few decent addons but he just has no opportunity to run them.
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I blame the balancing of the game, not the players dodging. If the balancing was better they wouldn’t dodge.
Lobby shopping is not what I’m talking about though, I don’t agree with that. However the players avoiding unfair matches for things the game isn’t balanced for seems reasonable to me. If I’m in a 4 man swf with 4 medkits I would justifiably expect to be dodged a lot.
Not advocating for anyone to do anything, just giving my thoughts.
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All pretty valid points.
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I like the idea a lot, just a couple changes.
Should effect the obsession as well and you didn’t mention it but it shouldn’t go away if the obsession dies but just freeze where it’s at.
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There are absolutely a ton of killers that need buffs. Saying 10 killers are viable is also extremely generous, I’d say more like 5, and that’s being generous. They can buff the worse killers without buffing the better ones.
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Idk what people are talking about with Knights addons being good, they are completely terrible bar like a few. He needs a nearly full addon pass.
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@xerox8521 said:
It works until the survivor pre drop every pallet then the build becomes unviable.
^ Yeah this is what makes it a bad perk. You get 1, maybe 2 procs if you're lucky and then never again. Even when it does proc, rarely are you able to capitalize within its small duration. You are also committing almost your entire perk list for this as well. A perk that looks a lot better than it works out in reality.
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They're both required. Most his other addons are so terrible you wouldn't care for them anyway though. He does honestly need an addon rework and those addons basekit.
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It's not broken on Nurse nor should we be balancing everything around 1 killer. The perk is fine.
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@DBDVulture said:
Here's a quick guide to making fair maps:
- No maps can be larger than 9000m².
- Do not allow massive linked tiles (see Scott Jund's dream patch notes). Coal tower is one of the biggest offenders for this because too often you have 3 tiles linked together and you can loop it a long time before needing to use any pallets. This breaks the game.
- Make the majority of any pallets in a map "mindgameable". Go pull out some video and look at the Stranger things map. Most of the pallets on this map are "unsafe". No matter what no map should ever have more than 14 pallets.
- Do not make maps that require the killer to 3 gen. Everyone knows Azarov's resting place is a problem- but so are the suffocation pit, Dead Dawg, RPD and Haddonfield. All the good players can immediately tell you which generator you need to finish on game start to break the killer's 3 gen. In fact let's rewrite this rule to be : maps should have multiple locations where the killer can hold a 3 gen.
- Stop making "extreme time wasting" features on main buildings. Remember how busted the old Iron Works of Misery map was for years? Obviously the devs do not since they made an even more broken version of that with the Garden of Joy. That building should have a single strong window that leads outside. In case you don't know we can have a window on the back wall , the window by the generator and the window on the back/side that is close to a god pallet on the side of the house. Every game have "one" of these windows open and close the other two. What other Maps have broken Main buildings? Shelter woods and Badham immediately come to mind.
While we're on the subject let's delete the jungle gym right next to the "car park" on the Garden of Joy map. That area is always like a 6 tile link hotspot and is a perfect example of how not to design a map. The linked tiles are completely gros to play against.
Ok since we seem to be using this map as a bad example let's talk about generator placement. Largely speaking the gens are in a "U" shape around the map. This makes holding a 3 gen near impossible. We could use one generator on the front porch - combine this with the window changes and maybe the window is open or not and maybe the generator upstairs can spawn on the front porch. Move the "Car park" generator about 10m closer to the main building. Move the generator between Shack and the jungle gyms around car park about 10m closer to the house. Move the shack Generator outside of shack about 10m closer to the house. Delete the generator spawn in the far corner of the map (same side of the wall as shack but on the "back side" of the house).
See where I'm going with this? Also it's just easier to re-imagine this map as a 9000m² area (for point of reference this map has 10496m² right now).
This sounds perfect.
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All hooks could be scourge hooks and none of the scourge perks would be overpowered. To me that's failed. The entire point is that they're "supposed" to be strong enough to warrant the only 4 hooks. It's essentially the same issue with hex perks. The payoff doesn't warrant the risk. High Risk/Low Reward.
Boons are bad design in concept. The killer is already behind is time yet instead of giving the survivors more objectives it's giving the killer more objectives. Backwards design.
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Most aura perks just need to have a lingering effect of like 10 or 15 seconds to make them more reliable. Dark Devotion needs to last 60 seconds as the current duration is not enough. Dissolution needs the 3 second activation removed. Septic Touch is just embarrassingly bad and needs its numbers jacked up ridiculously. Overwhelming needs more effects to it, it just doesn’t do enough.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374360#Comment_3374360
I just don't know if the game can take another gen time increase. Just the reaction from bhvr after this 90 sec gens also makes me believe so.
Like we had for years tons of gen defense/regression perks and almost no gen rush perks.
Suddenly gens take 90 sec. In almost a year we had no new gen defense perks but had:
- Hyperfoccus
- PTB Better than new
- Quick Gambit
- Potential Energy
- Friendly Competition
- Overzellous (if they were already thinking of the update before this perk came out)
I don't think the game can take another gen time increase, it would just be too much at that point.
I hope for smarter and more elegant solutions.
I’d like more elegant solutions as well as I was referencing in my post, I just don’t know how realistic it is. The amount of work that would be for the devs is huge. I feel like we’re almost more stuck going for an easy solution rather than the best solution. If you have an easier solution than the ones I mentioned earlier I’m open to it.
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My main gripe that the map is still too big. I don’t get why it got a whole rework and this wasn’t addressed.