Blueberry
Blueberry
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Now that there's a gen kick limit honestly all the perks related to kicking gens need buffs or reverts to their older stronger selves, bar Pop which is already fine.
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Honestly Iron Will at 100% I'd like to try if it also applied Exhausted to you so you couldn't run an Exhaustion perk.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690150#Comment_3690150
Well the easy and probably fair fix would be to remove the collision, but idk if they will ever do that xD
I agree!
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@Kius said:
People want "tunneling" to be gone but to change that they would probably need to change the game core mechanics which lets be honest that's not happening any time soon if ever..
Most of the survivors I've encountered since I returned to dbd body block with OTR and some of them had DS on top after they went down.. people unhooked should become "ethereal" to avoid this situation and be disabled after all gens are done..
Totally agree.
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@jonifire said:
I don‘t know where I read it, but they mentioned it is intended like this, so that it is more difficult to spot someone‘s aura on a gen. With that being said, I agree with you, it would help a lot.
If they said that it would seem counterintuitive in design to me. Like let's take gearhead for example. It shows auras of the survivors hitting good skill checks "on gens". See what I mean? Like if it was BBQ, then yeah, it's designed to see their auras out and about so them going behind a gen would be intentional, but Gearhead is literally only when they're on the gen.
Also, isn't the skill supposed to be strategically hiding your aura? Like lockers or behind gens? Not, "we're gonna make the auras blend together so it's hard to see". One is skill to avoid, one is just annoying with no skill.
We have seen the trend of prioritizing accessibility as well, so that seems unnecessarily punishing to those with disabilities.
I know you already said you agreed, I guess I'm ranting lol
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690179#Comment_3690179
Disagree.
What if you get hit off hook?
I already responded to this above.
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Yeah, I'm all for flashlight/flashbang saves as they take skill and have lots of counter play but Background Player with all this just removes all killer counter play.
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The fact that so many people are upvoting comments about "smaller maps" are forcing survivors to hold w more just shows how many people don't understand the "hold w" fundamentally. Hold w is incentivized on larger maps because it allows it to work, hence "hold w", not hold w and "hold a and d". Hold w does not work on smaller maps because you hit corners. So saying hold w is encouraged by maps becoming smaller is antithetical and doesn't make sense.
Now if we want to get into hold w being encouraged by loop design lately, that's much more of a reasonable argument, even though I'd still disagree, but it's at least a debatable topic. However saying it's because map sizes are smaller is just objectively untrue at a fundamental level.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690179#Comment_3690179
The issue here is that sometimes a killer may be tunneling but because another survivor is close trying to help the person being tunneled, it may still register as a protection hit. The scenario happens a lot where someone makes a bad path and the killer manages to get around or swing around them and still hit the person they were tunneling instead of the person trying to protect them from being tunneled.
That's a fair point. I'd prefer just no collision on the unhooked to prevent all this.
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Even more so, protection hits. Solves the abuse problems. If you're body blocking for someone you aren't being tunneled, you're trying to extend chases and progress the game.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690134#Comment_3690134
Well weird people are playing this game xD
I have to admit that I usual also bodyblock with bt, but I know the risiko to get tunneled and also like to. I think it's pretty fun to try to survive as long as possible xD
P.S I won't bodyblock with ds and probably not even use it. I don't like it too much ^^
lol yeah.
I have absolutely no problem with anti tunnel. I'd even love stronger anti tunnel, and have it base kit for that matter. I just don't want to be punished by anti tunnel things when I'm not tunneling and that's currently not the case. Every time I mention this abuse of the anti tunnel mechanics everyone just ignores statements like the above and says why we need anti tunnel mechanics and that I want to tunnel. It's like people have selective reading and just see what they want to see.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3688318#Comment_3688318
Wonky hit-boxes that are killer-sided, a power that can encourage a tunnelling play style that a lot of people default to because it's the "easiest" playstyle to play, an infection mechanic that gives 8% hindered that doesn't pause while in chase, literally can cover ground as fast as you can gain on him.
Yeah, sure balanced. and I'm saying this as a killer main.
I agree he does have some very overly forgiving hit boxes so I could see that being narrowed a little, that's fair.
"an infection mechanic that gives 8% hindered that doesn't pause while in
chase, literally can cover ground as fast as you can gain on him. "I could see being made healthier, but not a nerf. How would you suggest changing this for the better but not nerfing? Maybe not build while in chase but build even faster out of chase?
"tunnelling play style that a lot of people default to because it's the "easiest" playstyle to play"
I disagree with this perpetuated sentiment in the community that most killers tunnel because it's "easy". I'm sure there are many that do, but that's not the majority. The majority do it because they feel forced to. Most killers would rather not tunnel as it's not as fun, chases are.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409731/anti-tunnel-used-offensively
It happens quite a lot, but I don't have a problem with bodyblocking with bt too much. I'm already more annoyed of the people bodyblocking with ds tho xD
Yeah that's kind of where I'm going. We're already getting base kit or OTR blocks very often as is. Now with DS going back to 5 seconds we're going to see both being used this way. It's very obnoxious.
Like for how common people complain about tunneling, I would make the argument that I see more unhooked people body blocking the rescuer when the killers trying not to tunnel than I see killers tunneling. The irony.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689658#Comment_3689658
Unless you of course have a hypothetical example of an answer a high mmr person could give to sway their mind that I haven't thought of.Well this needs to be broken into a few different parts because there are multiple arguments going on that are getting put together.
1: Is it common at high MMR?
2: Is it unbalanced?
3: Is it abusive?
The first argument, is it common, requires a few things. First, we'd need to have a definition of common. Some people this might be one out of ten games, of rothers it could be every other game. Then we'd need a standard for what exactly we are discussing - is it the full DH / OTR / BU / DS build, or if a person is using a portion of that build does it also count.
Beyond definitions though, you'd probably need a data set. Over the last 50 games I encountered X Y number of times. That's boring, and not everyone will believe it, but it makes things clearer.
On the second argument, is it unbalanced, discussing personal MMR is not critical to it, we need to discuss what else survivors might do. For the sake of argument, let's say the above build is very common. What if it wasn't? Would survivors be running heal builds to trade off body blocks? Gen rush? Sabo squad? If a survivor dedicates an entire build to something it should get value, to consider the value we'd need to look at what else a high MMR survivor could do.
The third argument, which is the meat of your original post, really has nothing to do with high MMR and that discussion was a distraction from the issue. This is an ethical discussion on player behavior and the intent of perks.
My opinion is tunneling will always be a part of the game as long as it has an elimination format and survivors will have perks to try and counter it. I see nothing wrong of trying to use those perks in an offensive way because it comes with trade offs (time not spent on gens for example). Is the trade off balanced? Well, that goes back to the second issue.
This does mean that survivors have to accept that killers might tunnel. I think that leads to boring games, but its a core part of the game design.
1: Is it common at high MMR? Yes. To lesser extents than the extreme listed above, but generally abuse of anti tunnel perks for their unintended purpose, yes.
2: Is it unbalanced? Yes.
3: Is it abusive? Yes.
"The first argument, is it common, requires a few things. First, we'd
need to have a definition of common. Some people this might be one out
of ten games, of rothers it could be every other game. Then we'd need a
standard for what exactly we are discussing - is it the full DH / OTR /
BU / DS build, or if a person is using a portion of that build does it
also count. "I referenced this already in another post here, it's probably every 5 games or so. Time also has a massive impact on this though. during the day for my time zone, quite rarer, like once every 10 games. Prime time at night though where almost every match is a sweat fest? Every few games. So it can very significantly by time.
"Beyond definitions though, you'd probably need a data set. Over the last
50 games I encountered X Y number of times. That's boring, and not
everyone will believe it, but it makes things clearer."So that I do have. I play way, way more than the average person. I'm getting these numbers from about 300+ matches a week.
"On the second argument, is it unbalanced, discussing personal MMR is not
critical to it, we need to discuss what else survivors might do. For
the sake of argument, let's say the above build is very common. What if
it wasn't? Would survivors be running heal builds to trade off body
blocks? Gen rush? Sabo squad? If a survivor dedicates an entire build to
something it should get value, to consider the value we'd need to look
at what else a high MMR survivor could do."Discussing personal mmr is completely critical to this. This happens significantly more at higher mmr. A person at lower mmr probably never sees this, hence why they don't even see it as a problem. Yes, if they weren't running they above build they would be running other perks and yes, obviously you have to get value from perks. The issue isn't value from perks, it's whether they are too strong and simultaneously abusable for more than there intended purpose. Would those alternate perks they'd run instead be too strong? No. Would they be abusable? No. We already are looking at what else a high mmr survivor can do, that has nothing to do with the point being made here.
"The third argument, which is the meat of your original post, really has
nothing to do with high MMR and that discussion was a distraction from
the issue. This is an ethical discussion on player behavior and the
intent of perks. "It has everything to do with high mmr and is not a distraction, that's not understanding the issue. This abuse doesn't happen in lower mmr groups.The point is brought up to explain why others never see this happen and don't see it as an issue. It's also brought up because in higher mmr matches every second counts. Why is that relevant? Because you see people that don't play at higher mmr post things like, "just eat the DS", "just eat the UB". These responses make sense at low mmr where the time of the matches isn't pin point and you can waste time like that. This is not an ethical discussion on player behavior whatsoever. It is a discussion on intent of perks. Intent of perks and use of said perks is the entire point of this discussion.
"My opinion is tunneling will always be a part of the game as long as it
has an elimination format and survivors will have perks to try and
counter it. I see nothing wrong of trying to use those perks in an
offensive way because it comes with trade offs (time not spent on gens
for example). Is the trade off balanced? Well, that goes back to the
second issue."Tunneling will always be a part of the game, but that's not the discussion being made here. The discussion here is abuse of perks. You're conflating two things that are not the same. Anti tunneling perks are good. Abusing those anti tunnel perks for their unintended purpose is not. Saying they have a trade off is a pointless statement as the tradeoff is always in their favor, hence why they do it. If it wasn't worth the trade off they wouldn't do it.
"This does mean that survivors have to accept that killers might tunnel. I
think that leads to boring games, but its a core part of the game
design."This has nothing to do with this topic at all. My topic has nothing to do with tunneling. My topic is abuse of anti tunnel perks for their unintended purpose. Those are not the same topics.
After all this tangent none of this had anything to do with my question to you. The question was, hypothetically if it was a high mmr only explainable issue that wouldn't make sense to someone not at high mmr and I couldn't use "high mmr" as a rational, what is an example response I could give instead to convince them? Since you don't like my high mmr response.
You never actually answered this question.
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@sharpef3rn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3688535#Comment_3688535
Do you not understand that No where to hide provides different information for the killer based on their speed compared to other killers making the perk stronger. Like with Thano if the suvivors heal they dont lose the percentage. They are less likely to heal against plague so its a synergy. A do more is when the perk literally provides something extra. Like if Doctor instead increased madness whenever a survivor screamed perks like infectious and other screaming perks would do more for the doctor.
if you reread what I typed you’ll see I do understand that and it’s literally what I already said.
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@Zraith said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689572#Comment_3689572
I'd say your suggestions are what others would call griefing.
Then they'd be misusing the word griefing as that's not griefing.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689867#Comment_3689867
I mean, you can't kick it again as long it's regressing and there is 3-gen feature, so probably not.
It might be really annoying to play against it. Imagine you get hit 99% gen with pop and this version. If you are unlucky, you get back to 23%.
It would be really funny to kick 5% gen and just see it increase progression, because you also managed to hit high % gen.That would be funny lol.
Might be annoying to see it drop from 99 to 23 but the progress at least isn't lost, now you've got that much progress on all the gens. Also requires kick time and is limited. Idk it would be a unique effect.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689802#Comment_3689802
Oppression - When you kick a generator, that generator and 3 other random generators will all have their current generator progress equalized between them and begin regressing.
That sounds cool and could actually be worth that high cooldown. I would still prefer to lower it a little tho.
Well seeing as it isn't actually "regressing" per say, just spreading it around and we're limited on kicks, does it even need a cooldown?
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3687921#Comment_3687921
Here we go again. Ive never seen many "probably" high-mmr players running DS. Also you cannot argue with some player playing by their own made up rules. DS ist not a good perk. Thats been common sense for years now. It ddidnt do anything and it wont do anything useful. Most killer can olay easily against those measly seconds of a stun.
Right and I guess comp players run it for funsies lol
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@[Deleted User] said:
@Blueberry Your Deathslinger now 😏
Lol yeah I just rotate it based on what I'm currently playing the most of. I'm pretty bad at him but when you land those hits the dopamine is real haha.
My favorite is still Dredge though. I'm very good at him.
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I run it for the dopamine hits of when I down people but realistic it's one of the worst slow down options compared to everything else available. Like it's worse than PR, Pop, Deadmans, GE, Deadlock ect.
Tbh I'd like if they just removed the basic attack requirement to give it a little more flexibility since it is worse than the others.
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I tend to want to move away from skill check perks since it hurts new players more while being useless against good players. We kind of want the total opposite of that.
Let me know what y'all think about this idea.
Oppression - When you kick a generator, that generator and 3 other random generators will all have their current generator progress equalized between them and begin regressing.
So the actual gen regression as we all know is nearly irrelevant with how slow it is, but this effect would essentially keep spreading the progress over multiple gens. So if you had a gen at 80 seconds of progress, this perk would put them all at 20 seconds. A quite weird effect. It might not even need a cooldown since we're limited on kicks and it's not actually giving "regression" per say, just spreading it out.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689454#Comment_3689454
I'm not trying to be overly pedantic. We can talk about human intent relative to tanking hits all day, but that has to translate to lines of code somehow. How are you differentiating between an intentional body block and and organic positioning in code? How is the game going to understand the difference between between a body block vs getting hit while a teammate just happened to be close by? At a certain point that becomes way too cumbersome.
Regarding the first point, if one extra chase is breaking the game for the killer, the extra chase isn't the issue. We're essentially saying the killer didn't have time to win 3 or 4 chases in a pub at that point. And that's even if we're in this worst case scenario in the first place where we somehow managed to eat OTR+DS+DH. You can still just eat the Unbreakable, proc the OTR and force the mend, etc. There's nuance to it. I don't think it's going to cause huge issues in otherwise winnable games.
Well ideally I'd do no collision so the body block detection criteria you're referencing wouldn't matter.
I think those scenarios are recoverable on solid tier killers but I'm talking m1or lower tier killers generally speaking.
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@Xernoton said:
There are simple solutions for this issue, that would also make OTR a way better perk:
- The base kit Endurance effect is removed and replaced with an effect that removes any collision the killer and survivor have with each other. Meaning, they cannot be hit but they also cannot bodyblock.
- OTR does not work on protection hits. Meaning, you simply go down if you take a protection hit.
Survivors would have 10 seconds to split up, so that a protection hit won't happen, the unhooked survivor cannot bodyblock the killer and OTR becomes a way better perk because the killer can no longer trigger the Endurance hit right after the unhook. This would also utilise the otherwise useless protection hit mechanic and would allow for some adjustments to make it more consistent without breaking OTR in the process.
Love it!
Both options I've had as well. Keeps the anti tunnel and removes the abuse.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689613#Comment_3689613
However I'd also argue that over 10k+ hours gives me a ridiculously large sample size of data to judge most games by that is quite out of the norm compared to most anyone else making a statement like that.But at that point you aren't having a discussion. A discussion requires some standard that might make you change your view. If everyone who says 'here is why I think you are wrong' you dismiss for having a different hour level, what exactly do you want people to respond with?
Take the example WolfyWood gave of this means they aren't using gen rush perks. I see killer who say they are super MMR and a gazillion hours saying those are the key problem (deja + commodious + hyper focus). Which 10k+ hour killer am I supposed to believe? On the other hand if we have a logical discussion of how games play without a reliance on just personal experience we at least create the possibility of taking a step toward a conclusion.
Edit: Nebula beat me to this.
I get your point, but let's do a hypothetical to see the problem with this.
Let's say that we can't just argue, well I'm at high mmr and your not so you don't know. However let's pretend that said person is at high mmr and the things he's saying are true. How would he prove it to the other person that isn't at high mmr?
He couldn't.
The principle of that person at high mmr's said problems are based on the experiences of what goes on there. If someone else doesn't experience those things they aren't going to agree with them. There's nothing you could say to change their minds. That's my point.
So while yes I understand me saying high mmr could be just used as a blanket dismissive point it's because if they don't play there then there's nothing you could say to them. There's no other way you could prove your points. At that point you're essentially playing two completely different games.
Unless you of course have a hypothetical example of an answer a high mmr person could give to sway their mind that I haven't thought of.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689613#Comment_3689613
Which is totally fair, I’m not arguing that your experience is wrong. My initial reply was pointing towards the “no one at high MMR would agree”, as this statement seems to make the assumption that everyone’s experience at high MMR is the same. It seems that regional differences in playstyles are actually way more apparent than one would initially think, and that this could be the culprit of so much contention to your points.
Oh I totally agree about regional differences, I do think there's a difference there. I guess we didn't mention that specifically. In my region the perks being ran and the survivors play styles I view as objective. I'm sure people can have subjective interpretations of them though. My statements are more about what is happening there, not peoples experiences of said happenings.
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@Hexonthebeach said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689408#Comment_3689408
I like this but it should move if you kick a gen that is higher than the previous.
I mean that would make it better than the current version sure, but it would still look bad. I feel like just having it effective on any you've damaged looks actually solid.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689620#Comment_3689620
Flashbangs in here because it removes the counterplay of looking at a wall because they can throw the flashbang on your feet.
Well I don't feel like they'd be able to get into position for that flashbang in time without the aid of Background Player.
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Flashbang is fine, the issue is Background Player. It removes almost all counter play for the killer bar getting lucky and near a wall.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689600#Comment_3689600
that it’s your personal anecdotal experience and not reflective of everyone else’s.
That is a fair point. However I'd also argue that over 10k+ hours gives me a ridiculously large sample size of data to judge most games by that is quite out of the norm compared to most anyone else making a statement like that. I'd also like to point out that I never said it was reflective of everyone else's. All I pointed out was what is being run perk wise in high mmr games and how the survivors play there.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689559#Comment_3689559
I'd add an aura or some other visible effect to show that basekit Endurance/OTR/DS is active and collision is off. The argument against it is that you can't bait a Killer into following somebody as a strategy and it shows who could be tunneled but the counter argument is that if you take OTR or DS and it deters the Killer from tunneling you it's done its job as intended and if you have to take a perk to avoid being tunneled you'll need to take it anyway regardless of a visual effect or not.
I can't remember if you had an opinion on my thread about anti-tunneling ideas but my suggestion had been slowing down gen progress while survivors are alive and speeding it up incrementally as survivors are killed to slow down the early game but make doing all gens easier as survivors are killed so getting all survivors or nearly all to death hook and then killing survivors would be more effective. That would reduce the effectiveness of tunneling and slow down the game so anti tunneling perks aren't as needed.
Another suggestion from the same thread (apologies to the suggestor; I don't remember who suggested it) was giving a pool of hook states so no survivor died until the 9th hook state. The effectiveness of tunneling would be severely diminished at that point. I like the suggestion; the reason why I prefer mine is because gen speed can be a major issue for Killers in higher MMR so a slowdown that encourages spreading hooks hits both and lessens the need to tunnel. They're both good suggestions in my opinion.
If tunneling is less effective then there will be less tunneling and that equates to less need to buff anti tunnel perks. That'll require some changes to mechanics though. In the meantime band aid changes such as reverting DS to 5 seconds are very much necessary.
Some interesting ideas here.
"I'd add an aura or some other visible effect to show that basekit
Endurance/OTR/DS is active and collision is off. The argument against it
is that you can't bait a Killer into following somebody as a strategy
and it shows who could be tunneled but the counter argument is that if
you take OTR or DS and it deters the Killer from tunneling you it's done
its job as intended and if you have to take a perk to avoid being
tunneled you'll need to take it anyway regardless of a visual effect or
not."I was generally just thinking like a soft white glow of the survivor with zero collision in the games base kit so the killer knows not to chase them while it's active.
"I can't remember if you had an opinion on my thread about anti-tunneling
ideas but my suggestion had been slowing down gen progress while
survivors are alive and speeding it up incrementally as survivors are
killed to slow down the early game but make doing all gens easier as
survivors are killed so getting all survivors or nearly all to death
hook and then killing survivors would be more effective. That would
reduce the effectiveness of tunneling and slow down the game so anti
tunneling perks aren't as needed."I actually love this. Essentially rewards not tunneling and punishes tunneling. While also just generally giving the losing side more of a chance for a come back.
"Another suggestion from the same thread (apologies to the suggestor; I
don't remember who suggested it) was giving a pool of hook states so no
survivor died until the 9th hook state. The effectiveness of tunneling
would be severely diminished at that point. I like the suggestion; the
reason why I prefer mine is because gen speed can be a major issue for
Killers in higher MMR so a slowdown that encourages spreading hooks hits
both and lessens the need to tunnel. They're both good suggestions in
my opinion."I like yours better. If the gens we're slower to compensate I could see this being good though.
"If tunneling is less effective then there will be less tunneling and
that equates to less need to buff anti tunnel perks. That'll require
some changes to mechanics though. In the meantime band aid changes such
as reverting DS to 5 seconds are very much necessary."I generally agree. My only issue with 5 second DS is getting hit by it when I'm not tunneling or it's being forced on me aggressively, of which these scenarios will be happening a lot. So if it hypothetically got changes to only hit me if I'm actually tunneling I'd be totally fine with it. I don't tunnel.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689556#Comment_3689556
“Nearly everything you said I think is incorrect and no one who plays at high mmr would agree with.”
Why are you being so dismissive to anyone that disagrees with this as essentially just saying “you’re not good at the game”? You’re saying you want civil discussion, yet dismissing anyone that contends with it by stating they’re clearly not high MMR. Is it not possible that you’re hyperbolizing an issue to be way more apparent and dangerous than it truly is? This is how comp players play, not your average high MMR lobbies.
Well what should I say when I'm telling you what I see in my games regularly and you tell me that's not the case?
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@Depressedlegion said:
I think it should make it so after a m1 down, for 30 seconds that survivor, cannot be picked up in any way.
I'd like for it to waste a similar amount of time for survivors getting them up if we're making this change and a lot of the time wasted is looking for the survivor.
For 30 seconds they cannot recover or be picked up. After that 30 seconds there is a 30% recovery and healing debuff until picked up.
Now it has no blindness so it effects swf and solos the same and we're getting the slow down from getting off the ground instead of in search time for the survivor.
How's that sound?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689524#Comment_3689524
And I explained why it's a problem to non-tunneling killers, yet somehow it doesn't get through despite carefully explaining it.
Likewise, I've explained why it's not a problem to non-tunnelling killers, but that doesn't get through either, despite carefully explaining it.
I don't even know why it's a bad thing to say we shouldn't promote using anti-tunnel perks to go on the offense while finding a solution that benefits both sides and all MMR ranges.
Because it takes BHVR two years to change a 3 back to a 5 and the forum killers are at it again, throwing out the anchor and clamouring to have it undone, inventing once-in-a-blue-moon scenarios to try and paint the perk as a problem.
Tunnelling is the issue that killers have been digging their heels in on the most. It's been a problem since the game's inception, but we're going to massively overanalyse a perk that historically stopped being a problem after the conspic action nerf, minus the EGC activations.
'Anything but DS', and once DS is off the table, it's straight back to 'no solution warranted'. And then we can go another two years without anything being done.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689528#Comment_3689528
I've been here for as long as DS has had its deactivation conditions. No one complained about DS being a problem to non-tunnelling killers.
It was literally covering the forums, youtube and twitch streamers. One of the top most discussed issues in the game.
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I actually feel the opposite. I wish we had more perks like Knockout.
I like slugging in design. It's a high risk/high reward play style to build pressure. While weaker against swf, nearly everything is weaker against swf. Nearly everything is stronger against solos. This is a losing fight. I like that slugging gives a different play style option.
While less effective, on average I do still find it works decently well even against swf. Many aren't on coms and many aren't good at that specific of callouts like I'm at 12 oclock. Maybe you'll be lucky in a spot to callout like shack or main building. I ran a slugging build quite regularly against many swf with good success, even if it's less success than solos.
I think slugging is unfairly discouraged. I would always rather be slugged than hooked. The hate for slugging is irrational. There is objectively more you can do on the ground than on the hook. So the statement people usually have of slugging is boring, is to me objectively untrue. On the hook you're literally doing nothing and anything is more fun than nothing.Slugging also gives me a second chance at life.
This isn't even getting into the myriad of anti slug perks that exist.
The question isn't if it's more effective against solos than swf, the question is if it's too strong against solos. The game is balanced around solos. Is Knockout too strong against solos? I'd say no.
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@jesterkind said:
I think this is missing the more likely outcome, which is that the unhooked survivor only takes the Endurance hit and then leaves. In that case I don't view it as a problem, you're still getting a Mend action out of them so it's not a complete loss.
Beyond that, even assuming the survivor does force you into downing them, I think the part that's being missed here is that you're still occupying two survivors for all that time, leaving only two (if everyone's alive) to do generators. The alternative to this scenario, especially assuming good survivors that don't go down easy in chase, is that you chase the unhooker, the unhooked goes to do generators, and now three survivors are directly progressing the objective instead of two.
Survivors that play this cocky and aggressive tend to be walking on a razor's edge where one mistake (or one correct read on the killer's part) completely unravels their team because they're already playing inefficiently. Even looking at the best case scenario for them, where the chase happens near some tight corridors or doorways that they can fully bodyblock, they're still putting themselves in a strictly worse scenario than if they'd decided to let anti-tunnel be defensive instead of offensive.
That's also why your scenario where you go occupy someone else but the unhooked survivor is following you is definitely not a problem. That's kind of great for you, honestly, you're getting the effect of a dead survivor off the guy trying to follow you around for their youtube montage or whatever.
Generally, when we self-select ourselves into imagining the platonic ideal of the High MMR Survivor, pretty much anything they do is going to be hard to respond to. At least when they play aggressive, cocky, and altruistic, it's something you could punish.
This is a good rational response. I appreciate the calm discussion compared to some others.
I do agree my scenario is a kind of worst case one. However, I'd argue even the simplest version of every single unhook in the game the unhooked body blocks just for their OTR and then goes back to gens is still an issue. That's still tons of extra hits throughout the game game that should realistically never be happening as it's "supposed" to be an anti tunnel mechanic.
As you mentioned, I do normally just go to gens. I'm not a camp/tunnel or go back to the hook type of player. However, this scenario still happens a lot if you're making smart hook placements in your 3 gen. So I'm basically "already there" quite often. Or the other scenario which also happens often even if I intend to leave which is them just unhooking before I can even walk off.
Still ignore them unhooking before I can leave and just go after the other survivors on gens? Well the others at the unhook have told them I'm coming and already pre ran. So just hold w to catch up to them and lose 20+ seconds before the chase even starts? Impractical for winning with this scenario is my point I guess.
Idk maybe I'm just getting the swat squads more than most people here so it looks like I'm making some rare matchmaking scenario but these aren't uncommon games.
We can even pretend these are rare scenarios for this hypothetical of problem solving if that makes it easier. Let's just say we're in this rare scenario. How do we solve this? I would generally say play a different killer or fix the anti tunnel being used for its unintended purpose. That's the options I see. I typically am running weak m1 type killers.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689497#Comment_3689497
I do.
I also do not believe they are a permanent solution. Tunneling, and to a lesser extent proxying, should be addressed in the game itself, not via DLC perks.
Once that occurs, feel free to do with them what you wish.
Oh I agree that it should be addressed in the game itself instead of perks.
I disagree the problem isn't solvable without harming anti tunnel mechanics though. Something as simple as zero collision makes the anti tunnel not only stronger but also prevents this abuse scenario. Win/win.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689388#Comment_3689388
The subtle hinting that anyone who disagrees with you must be low-mmr is kinda weird, but I'll bite anyways.
I don't agree with this at all. Most high mmr matches the entire groups
are running that type of build. The only way those groups lose is
through some tunneling/slugging combination and those perks counter all
those situations. Survivors are not perk dependent like killers are. As
survivor you do not need gen perks. If the killer isn't tunneling or
slugging, going for a 12 hook game and you still lose your team
misplayed a lot. Calling UB and DS not an issue because they proc once
per trial is extremely downplaying their
impacts. If you play at high mmr you would know how impactful even one
proc of those has on a trial, much less multiple they can come from
different survivors.Most 'high MMR' matches are absolutely not all DS+OTR+DH+UB, you're thinking of coordinated SWFs which are an entirely different game and are extremely rare.
Respectfully, I don't how how you can say Survivors are not perk dependent but killers are but then also claim to be a high-level player.
There was nothing stopping DS + DH + OTR + UB from being meta for months now considering MFT is the only meta-defining survivor perk that was released recently, so you are severely over-hyping how damaging they are to the average 'high mmr' match if at all.While not guaranteed it's most often landed. Especially when used at a
pallet where it's a scenario of eat the pallet to the face or swing and
eat DH. Lose/lose. Having a power or not for DH is irrelevant. What does
a hook in a tight corridor have to do with anything I've said?It is not 'most often landed' unless you are not good at playing around it, which is entirely a skill issue, and having a power absolutely does change a lot? There are a lot of powers that are good for baiting dh, attacking after dh, and capitalizing on failed DH's. Which would make the point of having to hit someone 'four times' irrelevant.
Again you are describing the 100 vs 0 scenario where the survivor does everything right on the right map while the killer is just a sentient W and M1 button, that's why people are telling you you are exaggerating.
This tells me you aren't playing at high mmr. The game is generally lost
at that point. You are downplaying how impactful even 1 UB or DS is on a
trial, like heavily.I mean you're telling on yourself if anything.
You are definitely not losing countless games vs pub survivors because of one DS, and if you are, then please record your games! Footage would be very helpful in seeing how it goes down, also open to any VOD's from high mmr killers losing games to this.
Very coincidental that after a Blight player loses their 1.9k + streak to a comp swf sniping with full anti-tunnel loadouts and a DS buff that suddenly bodyblocking with this build is the new 'high mmr' meta, despite none of these perks getting any changes until now and none of them being popular even in higher mmr's.
I agree that these perks can be very strong but coordination with other survivors plays a huge factor in this and the overwhelming majority of survivors, including 'high mmr' survivors are not coordinated. Even at their best I would hardly call these perks overpowered or without counters.
As for your suggestions I would agree and have said similar in the past, collision should definitely be removed from unhooked survivors but also basekit BT should not be an endurance hit either.
We might as well just agree to disagree then as we fundamentally disagree. Nearly everything you said I think is incorrect and no one who plays at high mmr would agree with.
"Most 'high MMR' matches are absolutely not all DS+OTR+DH+UB, you're
thinking of coordinated SWFs which are an entirely different game and
are extremely rare. "Most high mmr games are these perks and most matches at high mmr are swf. The rates of swf climb significantly the higher you go as swf is how you reach those higher levels. Probably sub 20% of my games are actually full solo queue groups.
"Respectfully, I don't how how you can say Survivors are not perk
dependent but killers are but then also claim to be a high-level player."Everyone well experienced in the game would agree with this. This is a widely accepted concept.
'There was nothing stopping DS + DH + OTR + UB from being meta for months
now considering MFT is the only meta-defining survivor perk that was
released recently, so you are severely over-hyping how damaging they are
to the average 'high mmr' match if at all. "Yeah, it's been meta. This isn't new. Other than the uptick in DS since people are prepping the buff anyway. Anyone who plays at high mmr knows I'm not exaggerating how impactful those perks are.
"It is not 'most often landed' unless you are not good at playing around
it, which is entirely a skill issue, and having a power absolutely does
change a lot? There are a lot of powers that are good for baiting dh,
attacking after dh, and capitalizing on failed DH's. Which would make
the point of having to hit someone 'four times' irrelevant. "Bad survivors fall for those baits. Having the m2 ability doesn't change much.
"You are definitely not losing countless games vs pub survivors because
of one DS, and if you are, then please record your games! Footage would
be very helpful in seeing how it goes down, also open to any VOD's from
high mmr killers losing games to this. "That isn't what I said. I never said pub survivors. It's many swf groups. I actually stream regularly, it's in my profile.
"Very coincidental that after a Blight player loses their 1.9k + streak
to a comp swf sniping with full anti-tunnel loadouts and a DS buff that
suddenly bodyblocking with this build is the new 'high mmr' meta,
despite none of these perks getting any changes until now and none of
them being popular even in higher mmr's. "This is so random. This has nothing to do with anything. These perks were all popular and meta long before this video, like literally since their releases. YEARS.
"I agree that these perks can be very strong but coordination with other
survivors plays a huge factor in this and the overwhelming majority of
survivors, including 'high mmr' survivors are not coordinated. Even at
their best I would hardly call these perks overpowered or without
counters. "In higher mmr brackets it is mostly swf so they are mostly coordinated.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689473#Comment_3689473
Well that was an interesting take. Didn't expect you to be offended at all. Apologies.
It's okay, I was perhaps too defensive as well. Apologies on that too.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689312#Comment_3689312
But we're specifically talking about the community, IE: These forums.
Okay so I've been here for a millennia on the forums and what he's saying is true.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689440#Comment_3689440
Yes, but it's likely that changing either of them will affect that ability.
So you think fixing this issue without negatively impacting the anti tunnel mechanics is very unlikely?
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689488#Comment_3689488
That's what bewilders me.
We're not advocating for tunneling, any sane killer who wants the game to be enjoyable for everyone would be happy if tunneling was less of a necessary feeling, but we're pointing out a problematic combination that does have a massive effect on the pace of a match and is being used in a way the perks weren't intended.
It's the same as 3-gens or facecamping was in my opinion. A problematic playstyle that was made worse with the right perk combinations. And even then, not all low MMR players have Decisive Strike, so buffing it does nothing for new survivor players being tunneled.
Totally agree.
Like I was expecting comments here like, "Oh well I haven't seen that stuff happen much but as long as it's not weakening the anti tunnel I don't see why not, that sounds reasonable since it's not their intended purpose anyway".
Not a single one lol. But that would have been the most rational response. Like hypothetically I wouldn't mind any change that fixes a problem with the game someone was having if it didn't impact me or others negatively. Like why not?
Very surprised to receive push back on this.
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@ChaosWam said:
Anyone who says otherwise isn't being very truthful. I managed to do this build even with the current DS yesterday.
Bodyblocking doors especially wastes so much of the killer's time that they have no choice but to try and down+hook you because chasing their original target would take too long.
It could be lack of them being truthful (I'd hope not), but to be honest I think it's just that very few of them actually experience it since this is a higher mmr thing. I just think they don't see it/understand the issue. Or potentially some just only really play survivor and they enjoy the body blocking/swf coordination of it and don't want to lose it.
Like if I don't want any of the anti tunnel nerfed (as I said in my original post), and only changes to prevent the abuse of it, why would anyone be against fixing this? It makes no sense unless they know it happens and just don't want to lose it.
And it's wild the amount of people posting that we need the anti tunnel features or mocking me for just wanting to tunnel when I literally said in my post and even bolded it that I did not want to nerf the anti tunnel at all. I even said I'd improve it rofl. I don't know if people just aren't bothering to even finish reading the post in its entirety before commenting or what.
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@JoaoVanBlizzard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409790/is-this-an-issue
I'm going to say what I think, but please stay calm and understand all the points of my idea and try to see if it makes sense to you or not (after all, I'm not the owner of the truth)
I'm the type who thinks like this: all players, whether survs or killers, have to play with all their strength, if you think you should camp or tunnel the same surv, do it, a game where everyone says that killers they are the weakest side not being able to use resources that give them a chance to win, I am completely against players needing to fix the game's problems
Now comes the part that may divide opinions, I think the game really helps some killers to tunnel the survs, like: the yellow hook, and immediate hud update and the alert when a surv is saved, these are things that I think should have a delay, like when a surv was saved it would take 5 seconds before the killer received the alert,
to give the survs the chance to escape if the killer is far away, I know that there are killers like the nurse, the dredger, among others who, when they hear the alert, return to the hook while patrolling, if there was no immediate alert, the killer could decide to go back to see if there is a surv healing another one, or stay near the hook waiting for someone to save and leave the gens without patrolling
without the immediate alert, the killer needs to decide between taking care of the genes or staying on the hook waiting for someone to try to save, in the current way, killers like nurse and blight, puts pressure on the match and when he receives the rescue alert he quickly returns to tunnel, which is what I think the game is ridiculous, the game has to allow you to play your way and have consequences for your decisions
I'm actually totally in favor of more anti tunnel/camp like these ideas you've presented.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
"If someone is running OTR/DS/DH/UB that means they have no gen perks or
items not to mention, UB and DS work once per trial, I don't see why
this is a problem. "I don't agree with this at all. Most high mmr
matches the entire groups are running that type of build. The only way
those groups lose is through some tunneling/slugging combination and
those perks counter all those situations. Survivors are not perk
dependent like killers are. As survivor you do not need gen perks. If
the killer isn't tunneling or slugging, going for a 12 hook game and you
still lose your team misplayed a lot. Calling UB and DS not an issue
because they proc once per trial is extremely downplaying
their impacts. If you play at high mmr you would know how impactful
even one proc of those has on a trial, much less multiple they can come
from different survivors.Honestly, it's easier to trim posts by omitting anything about 'high mmr'. Everyone states they are at the highest of the high and 110% of that is merely ego-soothing. No one know their MMR, no one knows anything about it. People get stomped now and then and assume "Wow, I lost. I must be omega high mmr!" Calm down, stating you have high mmr doesn't make your post or points any more relevant.
If there are things to do to counter tunneling, I'm sure you'll love this idea. Find ways to work around survivors trying to combat tunneling. Because you know its probably all they see. Their MMR pits them against constant tunneling, your mmr pits you against teams who constantly put you in worst case scenarios that you can complain about on these forums. Its a nice lil system :)
If this seems tinged with malice, it's not. But I am quite agitated that this post is even here. Is this really the next flavor of the month to hate on? We get a tunneling weapon, adrenaline nerfed, and now it's on to something else.
Anyway, your scenario's are niche and very rare, regardless of your supposed god tier mmr. It is NOT a reason to nerf survivors or killers.
"I also dislike the notion that DH is guaranteed or that the killer
doesn't have a power to use or that every hook is in a tight corridor. "While
not guaranteed it's most often landed. Especially when used at a pallet
where it's a scenario of eat the pallet to the face or swing and eat
DH. Lose/lose. Having a power or not for DH is irrelevant. What does a
hook in a tight corridor have to do with anything I've saidAgain, niche scenario. Killers should not always have a positive outcome, just like survivors. I was told if I was tunneled, I put myself in that position. Well, if this DH scenario is SO common for you, stop putting yourself in that scenario. Gonna explain to me how that's impossible? Am I not high MMR because 'I dont understand?' Oh, that's the next point, Im early lol.
'Even if the survivor does all of this in the scenario you listed, for
the rest of the trial they have two perks, that's more than a fair
tradeoff. "This tells me you aren't playing at high mmr. The game
is generally lost at that point. You are downplaying how impactful even
1 UB or DS is on a trial, like heavily.Or this tells us your mmr isn't as high as you think, since you're clearly given up already if you get UB or DS'd. Of course you're gonna lose. Its like a survivor killing themself on hook first down. And Im making this atrocious comparison because I get insane comparisons also. Like tunneling equals gen rushing. Of course it doesn't, but it helps keep the pot stirred.
This scenario isn't doomsday for the killer player. Its still very winnable. But not if in your mindset. I only play Trapper and when I get DS'd or the team reset without me even knowing, I don't toss my hands up and go 'Damn my high mmr.'
"And if you're implying that the game is lost after this, which would
only be the case in high MMR, then it can also be assumed that you are
playing Nurse/Blight with a meta load-out as well, in which this
scenario is not very significant as S-tier killers don't care. "Why would that imply playing Blight/Nurse? What? That doesn't imply that whatsoever.
I primarily run B tier and below killers.
Yeah, not sure what this was about. Not going there lol. But I am curious! What killers do you run? Maybe that could explain some things for me lol. I dont expect everything I said to stick, as Im sure you have some good replies. I just want to see them :) Ty for the discussion!
This is a very, very large amount of hyperbole and straw man arguments. You exaggerated a lot of my points to things I never said or implied. "highest of the high" "omega high mmr" "supposed god tier mmr"
Me saying I play in high mmr is not synonymous with any of these misrepresentations you said. It's just trying to mock me.
"Is this really the next flavor of the month to hate on? We get a
tunneling weapon, adrenaline nerfed, and now it's on to something else. "And making this an us vs them. I never asked for any of the survivor stuff here to be nerfed. This has nothing to do with the topic nor me.
"Honestly, it's easier to trim posts by omitting anything about 'high
mmr'. Everyone states they are at the highest of the high and 110% of
that is merely ego-soothing. No one know their MMR, no one knows
anything about it. "I trim posts by anyone who dismisses high mmr. I only see people dismissing high mmr when they haven't experienced high mmr. I have over 10k+ hours in DBD. That puts me in like the .0001% of the population. After that much play time I have a pretty good understanding of the game. After that many hours I would expect anyone to be able to discern what good and not good players look like, hence understanding my own mmr.
You state like you're wanting to have a genuine conversation here, yet simultaneously mock me and talk towards me in a demeaning tone. It's disingenuous. I'd like a normal and productive conversation, but we can have that without being belittling towards me.
I main Pig, Dredge and Plague. Dipping into DS lately. Plague I wouldn't put as low tier, she's good (depending on addons), but the others I would.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Let's say a survivor does that. You've eaten the worst case scenario anti-tunnel and hook them a second time. Just tunnel them straight off hook the next time if they do that. Proc the endurance right away and get a quick kill. Annoying if they do that, but you can punish it quickly the second time around.
If you're in a situation where you're really struggling for a kill late in a game and can't get it because someone is using anti-tunnel like that, I'd argue the issue isn't really anti-tunnel at that point. It's making a bad situation worse, but you're already in a bad situation for other reasons.
Plus, in any scenario, you can outplay DH a good portion of the time. It's pretty obvious they're going to have it if they've already gone out of their way to force OTR+DS.
I get that anti-tunnel being used on offense can be annoying. I lived through old syringes, old DS, MoM, etc. But good anti-tunnel has to exist to make the game playable for survivors. Because otherwise you're going to have killer players being absolutely brain dead and hard tunneling off hook at 4 gens with zero consequences, and the game is worse off for that.
"Let's say a survivor does that. You've eaten the worst case scenario
anti-tunnel and hook them a second time. Just tunnel them straight off
hook the next time if they do that. Proc the endurance right away and
get a quick kill. Annoying if they do that, but you can punish it
quickly the second time around. ""Quick" doesn't fit this scenario. Eating all that stuff in high mmr tight time matches has basically lost you the game. You can't afford that much lost time.
"But good anti-tunnel has to exist to make the game playable for
survivors. Because otherwise you're going to have killer players being
absolutely brain dead and hard tunneling off hook at 4 gens with zero
consequences, and the game is worse off for that. "This is why I already said in my post that I wasn't looking to weaken or remove the anti tunnel. The options aren't have anti tunnel or not have anti tunnel, there's more nuance than that. I'm simply talking about altering them to still function just as good if not even better at preventing tunneling while also preventing situations like this from happening.
If we aren't weakening the anti tunneling at all, why would anyone be against stopping these scenarios?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689414#Comment_3689414
Every five games is common. I weirdly never see this as killer (most importantly), or solo queue survivor. And in my SWF groups people aren’t really doing it either. 🤷🏽♀️
I rarely see it in my solo queue games, but regularly in my killer games. My survivor mmr while probably high is definitely lower than my killers. SWF matches is what increases it a lot from the coordination and the higher mmr you go the amount of SWF groups goes up drastically. I'd say like lower than 20% of my matches are actually full solo queue.
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The problem is "just get the DS out of the way" is a low mmr play. In higher mmr matches eating even 1 DS can cost you the game. The time crunch in those matches is tight.
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@oxygen said:
I'd really like to at least see them try the no collision idea at least for basekit endurance, if not for whenever someone has endurance full stop. Seems like the smoothest thing to at least try that doesn't have the potential for extremely obnoxious side effects (like the terrible idea of treating protection hits as inherently conspicious actions. Yes, I totally want to have all my anti-tunnel turned off because there was an injured Meg in a bush where I happened to go down, very epic!)
Obviously makes it so you can just walk through them if they try to block, and also makes it better at anti tunnel too. Killer can't partially or even fully block to wait it out, and it's easier for teammates to take hits for the person that came off the hook without risking accidentally blocking the survivor they're trying to help while doing so as well.
This is basically what I'd be wanting. Makes tunneling even harder while also preventing these abuse situations I'm talking about. Win/win.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689421#Comment_3689421
Because I think you should be able to majorly delay a tunnel.
Until something changes in the games "basekit", I think it has a place. I'm also willing to see how DS affects it, and make changes accordingly, because it's not an issue currently.
I never said anything about not being able to delay a tunnel at all. That's nothing of what I've said.
I said people abusing anti tunnel mechanics to body block for the unhooker.