Blueberry
Blueberry
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922577#Comment_1922577
From the games I see, like I mentioned, it didn't matter if you were competent or not, people would still play aggressively and commit to things because they knew if they were grabbed they had DS.
With your change they would just bait the grab for a hit and then you either eat the DS or they unbreakable/get picked up.
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You're nearly never grabbing a survivor off a hook or gen if they're even remotely competent. Deactivating on grabs only would be almost irrelevant.
Not to mention dedicated servers have basically made most grabs non existent anyway.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922430#Comment_1922430
I reckon that one of two things will happen after the changes go live. Its either that community accepts that DS is not as good as it used to be and adapts to everyone using Borrow time and every lobby goes from 4 DS to 4 BT.
The other possibility is that DS changes become very negatively perceived and they end up changing DS in 1 month to being even more powerful than it was previously. My hope is that survivor community just adapts to everyone using borrow time so that Decisive strike just dies as a perk once and for all. It will fair trade off given that Hex:Ruin was taken away from killer but somehow, I always feel like killer will get short end of the stick in the end.
Every lobby already does run 4 BT's with the 4 DS's.
I don't do this "fair trade" stuff. That is flawed reasoning. We make changes so that there is balance between both sides. One side may be far enough ahead that they need 3 things nerfed while the other side only needs 1. You don't just buff or nerf an equal number on each side, that doesn't make any sense.
For the record I think all the second chance perks are unhealthy for the game in their current state and need changes, BT included.
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@HuDawg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922421#Comment_1922421
That's ass if you cant repair gens or do anything other than running throwing pallets or vaulting then i would make it so you can use it more than once
If you feel that way then you are literally the reason the perk was changed in the first place. You were using the perk as a 1 minute immunity, not an anti-tunnel perk.
Its purpose is to protect you from getting tunneled, not a 1 minute second chance immunity for playing badly.
It doesn't need more than 1 activation per game, it will still be meta. It's that good. Old DS was way overpowered.
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@HuDawg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922405#Comment_1922405
But the real question is will it have to be used once in game?
Yes it's still only once.
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@HuDawg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922397#Comment_1922397
So basically if i have ds no gen repairs no cleansing totems no healing or any other interactions for the whole game whatsoever?
Essentially anything other than running away, throwing a pallet, or vaulting a window as doing anything other than those things means you aren't being tunneled.
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@stikyard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/224463/the-meta-has-to-change
Interesting how you only mentioned survivor perks as if Killers aren't relying on the same 5 or 6 meta perks themselves.
Ruin / Undying / BBQ / Pop / Sloppy
I do agree generally. If you are facing the same perks 80% of time, they are just powerful crutches.
I think it's pretty obvious why I mentioned one side more than the other.
While the killer perk pool is small and should be larger it's still much more diverse than the survivor meta.
The survivor meta is marked around multiple second chances that aren't needed and make up for bad plays. The killer meta actually has some variety from slow down perks, to information perks, to chase perks. A good killer vs good survivors you will still lose the game even with fast chases simply through gen speed which is why you see lots of slow down. IE you can lose even if you weren't outplayed. So what is dictating the meta for each side is very different. That is another reason I mentioned one and not the other.
Another thing is that we've actually seen a couple new killer perks come into the meta. Not a lot and it should be more, but it's still more than the zero change the survivor side has had in years.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922141#Comment_1922141
I guess to rephrase what I was trying to say, I think bringing a toolbox into a match at all with the intent to use it on a gen is a waste of a toolbox. Toolboxes should be used for sabo and nothing else.
The only time I use a toolbox on a gen is if the killer is on the way and has PGTW and my gen is very close to being done.
Waste of a toolbox? No I can't agree with that statement. It progresses your objective towards winning faster.
Generally speaking, using it on a hook is just for more fun purposes. You may get a rare hook prevention with it, but against most good killers that isn't happening.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922064#Comment_1922064
It would be interesting as well to see which killers abused this and tunnelled everyone as well as who still decided not to tunnel.
Maybe a week without addons? See which killers really need them or which are hardly affected?
I'd like to see that as well.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922131#Comment_1922131
Well,using a PTB just for that won't work.There wouldn't be enough players willing to try such an experiement.
Also,the ranks would probably differ a LOT,which would hurt the data even more.
"There wouldn't be enough players willing to try such an experiement."
I feel like the truth of that statement should be a bit telling as well lol
I do see the issues with the PTB variant though. I can see people throwing a fit on live.
This is really telling of serious game issues if it would cause that much of a problem as a community reaction. There shouldn't be any perks that people "feel" are that required to throw a fit over or quit because of. Note that I said "feel" btw, in other words not in actuality.
So if the devs feel the reaction would be so bad that they wouldn't want to try for risk of upsetting people, then they should realize there's a problem as that shouldn't be the case.
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I'd find it hard for anyone to say using a toolbox on a gen is fun. It literally changes nothing in regards to game play, the bar just moves faster.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922090#Comment_1922090
So you are saying perks > skill
I'd say if people seriously quit over something that silly then that definitely solidifies them as being "crutch" perks because that would indeed be implying that they think perks are greater than skill lol
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922064#Comment_1922064
I would go further and say a weekend without any perks.
I think that could be fun and interesting
Oh I'd love that. I'd be very interested to see the stats.
Heck even just make it a PTB so it won't effect people who don't want to participate.
The only reason I lean towards more select perks at a time is then we can see more specifically each perks impact. When we throw out so many it makes the data a little less applicable in other words.
I'd also like a separate weekend where NOEDs turned off. This data would be very significant I expect.
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Not giving any opinion on those content creators, but they do acknowledge and give credit to the devs when they do something good, aka both perk changes for one example. It is genuine too.
This is to say I think it is a skewed perspective to say that they are only looking to bash the devs all the time for views. This is not the case. They genuinely want the game better which is their reasoning for said videos.
We could say whether their route of action is or is not too abrupt I suppose, but I don't think that their "intent" is really up for debate based on what I've seen.
Either way, we aren't mentioning anyone specific here so we aren't going against ToS, but this is very much walking the edge so this is quite a sketchy topic to have. I'm not sure if the devs would consider this conversation too far or not. I could see them closing it just for being so close.
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Aesthetically I love it on both sides.
It just has some bad loops that need fixing is all.
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@Bond4ever said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922064#Comment_1922064
Those stats wouldn't be good, cause im sure a lot of players would leave lol.
I think that should say something about the perks and the game right there if that's the case.
That's a sign of a problem.
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Meta change please, it's been yearssss.
As @Mikeasaurus mentioned, I'd be extremely curious to see a weekend with all second chance perks removed (aka the meta) and see how it effected the survival rates. I bet the difference in stats would be huge.
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I'm actually pretty happy with their change to OoO. Seems unique and has some decent uses, all while not being too overbearing as the previous version was.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919854#Comment_1919854
You are contradicting yourself soooo badly XD
You cannot say that staying out the way and being rotated to while 2 teammates are slugged is them playing badly. And then say that you're playing bad for all going down, because they weren't. You're proving my point that slugging that early is unnecessary. I guess you're guilty of this yourself which is why you defend is so desperately XD
Killer spawns in "F*** i have no pressure and i've been playing for 5 seconds already! Let's slug everyone I see right away!" Lol it's a pathetic playstyle and only terrible players utilise it XD
It seems contradictory to you because you aren't understanding what I'm saying.
"You cannot say that staying out the way and being rotated to while 2 teammates are slugged is them playing badly. And then say that you're playing bad for all going down, because they weren't."
I don't think you realize what you're saying either. Them rotating from a slug to all of you while spread out is very different from you all getting slugged while not spreading out. Most killer don't randomly slug and then go looking for people, that doesn't happen because it would be dumb on the killers part because you would punish them for it. These are not the same thing, nor are they contradictory.
"You're proving my point that slugging that early is unnecessary. I guess you're guilty of this yourself which is why you defend is so desperately XD"
You see it this way because you aren't understanding the conversation.
"Killer spawns in "F*** i have no pressure and i've been playing for 5 seconds already! Let's slug everyone I see right away!" Lol it's a pathetic playstyle and only terrible players utilise it XD"
I have literally already provided the counter argument to this multiple times above but you aren't understanding it.
No one plays this way, I don't see where you're getting this fantasy land from. Survivors dictate whether the killer can or can't slug, he isn't just randomly deciding to. AKA it is up to you whether they slug. If he's given the opportunity he should be taking it to create pressure as this is the time in the game with the least pressure.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919756#Comment_1919756
Lol you absolutely choose to slug multiple people. XD Just because the 'oppertunity arises' for a 3/4 man slug, do you have to take it that early in a match? No! Does it always mean the survivors played badly? No! Because there may be situations where they are deliberately staying out the way but the killer insists on never picking up regardless and rotates to you anyway.
1 survivor slugged is no pressure on the team at all, 2 people is, 3 people is overkill and 4 is 'gg'.
Running perks to avoid situations is a terrible mentality/state of play to have. I do not use builds to avoid crappy playstyles that I hate to vs, I use builds that I find fun and interactive to use with both my teammates and the killer.
I do not vs Twins and Nurse every match, so of course i'm not on the floor for 2+mins often. But when i do vs Twins and Nurse you are guarenteed to have one teammate on the floor for ages...guarenteed! Whether it be me or a random.
"Lol you absolutely choose to slug multiple people."
You're missing the point. The point is that whether or not the killer is slugging is up to the survivors to decide. If y'all play correctly the killer doesn't get good chances to slug.
"Just because the 'oppertunity arises' for a 3/4 man slug, do you have to take it that early in a match? No! Does it always mean the survivors played badly? No!"
Yes, yes it does! If you are getting 3/4 man slugged that early in the game y'all are playing extremely bad. You're complaining that a killer slugs at literally the best time to slug when he has the least pressure in the game.
"Because there may be situations where they are deliberately staying out the way but the killer insists on never picking up regardless and rotates to you anyway."
If they are actually playing this way and the killer still slugs he is making a misplay and you should be capitalizing. AKA no reason you should be complaining about this.
"1 survivor slugged is no pressure on the team at all, 2 people is, 3 people is overkill and 4 is 'gg'."
If that many of you are getting slugged all at once y'all are playing ridiculously bad or you are simply way outmatched and need to go down in rank. That scenario is not happening against good survivors.
"Running perks to avoid situations is a terrible mentality/state of play to have. I do not use builds to avoid crappy playstyles that I hate to vs, I use builds that I find fun and interactive to use with both my teammates and the killer."
This is a bad mind set to have. You think you should only ever have to run what you find fun and never have to run what is needed. Keep in mind this is not a need, it's subjectively something you just personally dislike. If it bothers you that much you should be running it. By running those perks you are avoiding a situation you don't find fun, aka increasing your fun. Even though as I pointed out earlier, finding slugging non fun is irrational since the alternative is hooking.
"I do not vs Twins and Nurse every match, so of course i'm not on the floor for 2+mins often. But when i do vs Twins and Nurse you are guaranteed to have one teammate on the floor for ages...guaranteed! Whether it be me or a random."
No, you are not guaranteed. I play against them regularly and don't have any of these issues. This sounds like a you issue, not a game issue.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919444#Comment_1919444
Slugging multiple people at 5/4 gens is really unnecesary. That's where the hate for slugging is directed. I ain't got a problem with chaining multiple downs to get momentum and getting hooks and rotational pressure off of it. But let's be real, the intention for multiple slugs is always to end the match as early as possible, otherwise the killer would always pick up after the 2nd down or 1st if the second chase was a potential time waster. So yeah, sluggers -namely Twins and Nurses are boring af to go against. I don't load into a match to spend 2+ mins bleeding out vs a killer who has no intention of picking me up.
"Slugging multiple people at 5/4 gens is really unnecesary. That's where the hate for slugging is directed."
You don't choose when you get to slug, you slug when the survivors give the opportunity. Also, slugging at 4/5 gens is literally the best time to slug anyway. That is when you have the least pressure of the entire match.
"But let's be real, the intention for multiple slugs is always to end the match as early as possible"
No it isn't. Most slugs are literally for pressure. It's to force the other survivors off gens and slow them down.
"So yeah, sluggers -namely Twins and Nurses are boring af to go against. I don't load into a match to spend 2+ mins bleeding out vs a killer who has no intention of picking me up."
As I said before, being on the ground is no different than being on the hook except now you get more second chances at living and you have multiple anti-slug perks you could run but refuse to.
Honestly now, how often are you realistically slugged for an entire 2+min of a match? That is ridiculously rare. If you want to sit here and say it is very common, then why aren't you running anti-slug perks? If it's really happening that often then you would be getting tons of value out of them and not having to deal with being slugged.
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I'd rather face anything than a DS or Hag.
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They needed to be reworked, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. However, they're completely useless and a waste of blood web space in their current iteration. Literally the only purpose they realistically serve now is if you wanna see the cool mori visual..that's about it.
Yeah we can nit pick some small and quite minor advantages you gain from them now, however those are so ridiculously situational to near insignificant and I can point out some equivalent loses to counteract them. Not even worth mentioning.
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@tippy2k2 said:
Maybe I'm misinterpreting him here but my understanding isn't that we lose killers when the sun goes down, we GAIN a ton of survivors
So it's not so much "How do we get more killer mains to play at night" so much as "How do we get all these survivors who swarm the game at night to play Killer instead"
I know for myself, I play almost exclusively killer at night because I can get into a game basically the moment I hit the "Join" button but I also don't have anyone I know who plays the game so I'm flying solo no matter which side I'm on.
They actually stated that there are a lot less killers at those times on stream, not just more survivors.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1918722#Comment_1918722
Game not fun.
After a certain time of the day, we see way more SWF teams than solos and the game isn´t fun, when the killer feels powerless or even bullied.
^ Basically this.
At night is when all the SWF groups come on which ruins the matches for a lot of killers since we all know the game isn't balanced around SWF. That's why all the killers stop playing at that time.
Yeah we can use that old line that these aren't swat groups, they're just friends messing around. However, even if that is the case, that is still a casual group that's just as casual as a group of solo's, except with 4x the amount of pseudo perks from information they give. People vastly underestimate how influential the little casual talk of "oh bro it's such and such killer", "he's throwing some traps at shack", "think I saw his hex totem over there". So even though they may be "casual" it is still a significant unbalanced advantage that people like to down play.
All this said, there are a lot more swat groups at night time as well.
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Two big licenses that I still think would bring a ton of fans from the franchises to DBD is Alien and Resident Evil. Both have huge followings and would create a huge player spike.
They mentioned that this is one of their big driving factors in obtaining licenses. How many players are we going to gain from investing in getting this licensed character?
While I tapped on this with Alien, I think the devs still have a huggge untapped resource of future killers for the game in "creature" type killers. This includes both original ideas and lotsss of licensed creature horrors from games/movies/books etc. I personally just find creature type killers much scarier than humanoids as well.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
Just please don't become another slugging Twins player. Twins and Nurse are the least fun killers to vs in this current period of dbd because of slugging constantly - and I used to love vsing Nurse.
What's the issue with slugging? Against good survivors you are required to slug.
There are also literally multiple anti-slug perks.
I would always rather be slugged as then I have a chance of not losing a hook state. There's no difference between you sitting on the hook or sitting on the ground from a game play perspective other than at least on the ground you aren't spamming space bar and you can try to crawl away.
Literally the hate towards slugging in this game is so irrational.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917673#Comment_1917673
And it shouldn’t deactivate upon hooking another survivor. Hooking another survivor does not mean the killer didn’t tunnel you. Like if I facecamp with bubba I can easily down the unhooker and then the unhooked. Hook the unhooker and bypass DS if that change was implemented.
I agree DS + Unbreakable is still strong tho.
That scenario isn't you tunneling though.
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I play almost entirely solo I enjoy it for the most part. Other than poor matchmaking and a poor ranking system solo queue is fine for me. SWF is just too easy.
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Base regression is nearly never worth the kick. It honestly should be doubled to .5 per sec. That's still half the speed of survivors so it seems reasonable.
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917673#Comment_1917673
I disagree. If i down you with ds, ive gained time because, since you still have ds, you havent really progressed the game. If you unbreakable, then thats cause i actually tunnelled and slugged you, not because you sat on a gen and i hit you. Its a win win now. Survivor loses time reviving and they havent done any progression
"If i down you with ds, ive gained time because, since you still have ds, you havent really progressed the game."
Actually no, you've lost time. Lets say you did great and downed me in 15 seconds. You look at it like I'm doing nothing and gained you time while you actually just lost 45 seconds of gen time from the other 3 survivors. If I get up from Unbreakable then not only did you lose more than half a gen for that down but you also didn't progress your objective at all so my team got that gen progress for free.
IE you lost way, way more time from downing me and having me off a gen while I was slugged then you actually gained.
"Survivor loses time reviving and they havent done any progression"
There aren't 3 survivors picking me up, even if we assume no Unbreakable that's still 2 survivors on gens.
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Survivor is strong enough that you don't need second chance perks, yet most of them run them, why?
It's basically the same premise. It's not a matter of what you need, it's just what's the most effective.
This said, even Nurse against a really good group of survivors that are playing properly needs slow down. Nurse gets around needing slow down from slugging heavily, but good survivors will be spread on opposite sides of the map preventing this multiple slug pressure attempt. Yeah most survivors won't do this to where she can slug for her slow down, but I'd also argue most Nurses aren't good to be at that level anyway either.
It's similar to why I like Bamboozle a lot. Against most survivors it's completely unnecessary, but essential against those rare extremely good survivors that know how to abuse jungle gyms well. I'd rather bring it for most games and not need it for the rare case I happen to run into one of those swf swat groups and I have it. This is the same principle as to why you see Nurses running slow down.You never know what you're walking into.
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Yeah I think it's a good change. It will still be meta but not abusable to the extent it was before.
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Well seeing as it doesn't deactivate on hooking a different survivor and the timer is still the same it still leaves you in a lose/lose in that scenario so it definitely isn't "cool".
The DS by itself is fine now though.
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No.
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I just want that creepy giant cat floating after me...scary as hell.
I'll take the giant pipe smoking caterpillar as a second option.
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@SilentPill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1916806#Comment_1916806
I mean it’s pretty hard to stay away from it on plenty of maps. “Just stay away from the basement on wreckers yard” and if the killer has something like agitation you are probably in basement range for like 50% of the map.
How often do you really have those maps and a killer running Agitation?
I play way more than the average person and have zero issues of getting stuck in the basement for a snowball. I also don't run any of those second chance perks including DS. How is it not an issue for me in solo queue?
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If you're healing someone or doing a totem you aren't being tunneled. That seems pretty clear to me.
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@SilentPill said:
Looks good but idk about unhooking disabling DS.
It’s one of the few ways to actually stop a basement snowball. The basement is already pretty strong and you borderline need a stack of meta perks to escape it if the killer is hanging around.
Object change looks great.
In other words you're are wanting it for anti-momentum, aka the exact reason for it being changed in the first place. If you're unhooking someone else, you aren't being tunneled.
Your counter play to the basement is to just stay away from it, it's supposed to be a scary place. There's a reason the strongest pallet in the map is above it as well.
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I like it, it looks interesting. You'll be able to know what aura reading perks he's running like BBQ/Nurses etc etc, as well as gaining information on him every time he gains it on you.
Seems like a good change to see so far.
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Hallelujah. It only took 4 years to make this happen. At least it's done and we can move on now.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1915331#Comment_1915331
Yea but nurse exists, nurse but 1.5x post blink lunge range = :c
I get what you're saying, but balancing an entire perk around 1 killer seems like a bad idea.
This said, we could also simply make it not work with special attacks and tweak was is and isn't considered a special attack.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1914108#Comment_1914108
It does not work like that....
player-skill works more like a normal distribution chart in statistics. Bad survivors think the game is killer sided because their lack of skill. There are more survivors that are average/below average than there are high average. Bad survivors will complain about strong killers that are above their skill-level floor. The matchmaking is the the pool of players. If the average pool of player is very low in skill level, than killers kill-rates will be high. Since there are a lot more bad survivors, that voice gets heard more where as more experienced kinda just laugh at the changes because they were not affected by it and did not think they were a problem in the first place. e.g Ruin/Undying, Billy, pop/thano etc. Its real same for killers. Its why most of them are push over but not for everyone because the skill-level is not high enough for them to be a push over for them yet. I made rough paint sketch of what i mean by that. Its just that ranking/emblem system does not track skill properly so it makes all the killers playable at rank 1 as you face a lot "average performers" most of the time.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KRPRSLRT3FQQ/elo-chart-2-png.png
I am not sure what the effect of MMR will be. I think rank going from rank 1 to rank 20 will do a lot more than people realize because better players will just be 2 piping from rank 20 to rank 5 and will get there in like few days where as worse players will have worse win rates so they'll get to rank 1 a lot later, but by the time they hit rank 1, rank reset will occur meaning in theory, you should not face bad survivors if MMR works properly. Its just that.... their emblem system makes it very hard for anyone depip and its easier to pip so I'd say that by the end of 3rd week of rank reset. you will be facing worse survivors like it is now so it will be like short-lived competitive season.
You say you disagree, yet everything you posted agrees with what I've said. I think you may have misunderstood my original point as most of what you said reiterated everything that I said.
We are both in agreement.
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Reverse Fired Up.
Permanent passive lunge increase with lower numbers than it currently has that starts out at its highest and gets lower and lower for each gen completed.
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Here's a couple big tips:
You should be getting a hit or a pallet in <15 seconds. If you took longer you are misplaying. After that hit or pallet drop chase and rotate to another survivor, rinse/repeat. Make an exception if after that hit or pallet they position badly for another hit/pallet, but that is generally the rule you want to go by.
You aren't beating good survivors without slugging, camping, or tunneling to some degree. I choose slugging as most do since it's the most fun for the survivors out of the options. You literally do not have time to take turns hooking each survivor one at a time. Just the time you spend in pick up animation and hooking one person is half an entire gen you lost...let that sink in.
These 2 tips will take you far.
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The satire lol
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Hag is one of the few killers that makes the best use of Corrupt, however I don't think it's required. It can be a hit or miss depending on map rng.
On Hag losing early gens is kind of irrelevant to me because even if you didn't lose early gens on the other side of the map early, you play to give them up anyway. You're gonna pick your best 3 gen and then never leave. So whether you lose those further away gens early or later doesn't matter too much since you weren't planning to protect them anyway.
So it can be great depending on rng, but I think she has other good options as well. I think it's up for personal taste in other words.
I personally don't run it because I don't like the rng with it and as I said earlier, I don't really care about those gens anyway if they're not in my 3 gen.
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I feel like you're over complicating it.
If you really want to change her give her a flicker of visibility every couple seconds while phasing (similar to what you said). She can see the flickers as well to try and play around them. Addons may improve the time she can go between each flicker.
Now that she has a pseudo tell of when she is or isn't phasing added, give back her old window vault, mid phase collision and reduced cd on her ability since it isn't as reliable now.
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@aGoodOldRub said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1914085#Comment_1914085
Whole purpose for victor was because they can't just do a tiny killer because of the hooking part of the game so they did victor and his sister. Unfortunately there wont be a tiny killer as a sole.
I don't believe that was the purpose for them doing it that way at all. They simply liked the idea.
Handling a hooking animation for a smaller killer isn't really an issue. I can think of multiple roundabouts for that.