Batusalen
Batusalen
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"Much more difficult" Dude, just go to a gen. If you find someone let him heal you, if not do the gen. Like any person without a medkit or old CoH have being doing all along.
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Please, don't nerf the perks and let me over rely on them. I'm a god looper and a pro in this game, but without DH every 40 seconds and be able to heal everytime I got injured this game is unplayable.
Fix the things that are truly broken, except if it is an advantage for survivors. If so, leave them as it is.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402513#Comment_3402513
If you're running DMS then the reduction of procs is a bit different. I've always felt it was more of a cheese combo but I can see Nemesis really liking it because of the zombies.
You don't run it with Agi do you? With Agi I still see this staying roughly at the power it currently is at and my unknown is more around if it is worth dropping Agi. The issues with missing a proc or bad hook spawns don't feel like actual issues since I mostly run it with Agi, and that is already fixing any RNG problems I could have with the perk. Throw in needing to hook certain players on scourge hooks or avoid putting them on ones doesn't seem like a big issue because of this. Might just be more of the perk being fine but restricted into needing to be paired with Agi.
Well, from the first day alone I can say that even if I was right in that when RNG screw you up it will screw you up harder than before, specially with DMS when you got it right you also hit harder than before. Survivors got caught with DMS by surprise more as now they don't know if that next hook is going to proc it or not.
But, I realized something that non of us anticipated before: Disconnects. Now, if someone that wasn't already hooked in the SH disconnects, you lost that token.
So, for the moment, I have to say that it isn't as bad as I though it would be but it is more extreme: It either win you the game, or RNG screw you and it does absolutely nothing, specially if someone denies you its use by disconnecting.
Also, in maps with multiple floors it still sucks 🤣
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You can simply click the things you want and when you have buy everything that is interesting for you just go for the random buy of the rest of the bloodweb.
Buy every medkit, then random buy the rest. I don't think this is a problem. Not everyone uses the sames addons and having just "healing items" would be too broad to replace the simple solution of first buying what you want before finishing that level randomly.
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As killer, I didn't notice that the changes on healing had any impact in game times, not that I have more time to win the game. The only change I notice is that people have stopped using DH (surprisingly, even tho I'm not going to complain) and that PR + DMS catches by surprise the survivors more times, but in the games were RNG would screw you up does it even more (not surprisingly, this is what I was expecting from the beginning).
As survivor, as someone that if it brings an item always is a toolbox I didn't see any difference. The only survivors that the healing would be a problem are the ones that over relied in it in the past. People are still healing mainly in hooks and besides gens.
It's have being a day. The moment the "medkit" people adapt to not rely on it for self healing and realizes they can still use DH this would be a gen rushing fest as before. It still are.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402474#Comment_3402474
Yea except it isn't 12 and more like 9. Once you are that deep into hook states the game is over. So you need to run Agi+PR for 9 procs. When I use it without it seems to be around 5ish. If you are also getting quick downs the perk would suffocate teams by itself. This is because there would be gens with progress on it and the proc would be 15% and put it in the regressing state. I'm expecting the perk to lose value in games where it is a stomp and gain value in games where I have a harder time going for hooks.
I really don't see this perk being super RNG. Sometimes you get really, really bad hook spawns but I don't find them to be bad overall. Are we going into time to hook players and how that additional time reduces the value from the perk? Kinda lost me where you are going here.
I can literally just go Agi and go from 9 to 7 and while being able to slam the procs early game where they hold more value. Players in my games are either losing or slamming gens. The problems are when players spread out and not stack on a single gen. You're acting like the correct way survivors play is do one gen at a time. There is no new RNG if you are already going for 12 hook games. Agi+ PR will be roughly at the same power it is now. The question for me is basically if I can drop Agi or if it is still feels required.
Like I said, we will see what happens two weeks from now. I also use PR + DMS as the only regressing in my Nemesis, so we can compare experiences with two different killers.
In my experience, the strength of the perk was being able to proc it every hook and that was what made it good even if it relied in RNGs, because if you were lucky you would get a lot of value from it. Now, you would depend even more on that RNG as know you would only have 4 chances to proc it and do it in a moment you get a "good hit" on the survivors so it would do almost nothing in most games.
You think this is not the case? We will see how things goes from tomorrow on. No point in repeating the same things over and over again.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402455#Comment_3402455
Are we playing the same game?
Apparently not seeing as you apparently face comp level SWF's every game who genrush 4 survivors to a gen every time?
Your MMR is so huge dude, totally impressed.
But lets pretend your worst case scenario is the more common game format for a second. 30 second gens (requires 4 survivors with PT or 3 with toolboxes/BNP's so it's unlikely you're hooking anyone but ok) gives you 112 seconds between five gens in which you would gain value out of Pain Res. That's still twice the time you're spending carrying survivors to a hook. (carrying the elusive fifth survivor because all four are slamming gens) Even your worst case scenario gives you a better chance at getting Pain res value than not.
Also, you have yet to explain how not having a choice of when you proc Pain res is better than having a choice of when you proc Pain Res.
Dude, 3 survivors with basekit progression does it in just 42.86 seconds. 3 survivors with 1 of them having PT can do the gen in 32.97 seconds, meaning that if they have toolboxes, BNP or other gen progression perks like Overzealous or Friendly Competition they could do it so much faster. Do you see how you don't know what you are talking about?
Generators are an interactable Prop and the main Objectives of Survivors in Dead by Daylight. Each Map features several Generators randomly located throughout it. The Trial Grounds spawn with 7 Generators, 5 of which need to be repaired in order to power the Exit Gates, allowing them to escape from the Trial. Outside of some special-event-only models, Generators have 2 distinct variations: A Generator with red accent colours. This type has tall floodlights attached one side of it.This GeneratorProve Thyself is a Unique Perk belonging to Dwight Fairfield.Prestige Dwight Fairfield to Prestige 1, 2, 3 respectively to unlock Tier I, Tier II, Tier III of Prove Thyself for all other Characters. Rework: now only affects Repair Speeds but gives bonus Bloodpoints for cooperative Actions. Buff: increased the speed bonus to 15 %. This change was motivated by the increase to the base Efficiency Penalty in the same Patch. Note: Repair speed is measured in Charges per second. A Generator requires 9And if you gain full value in those "112 seconds between five gens", that's 22.5 charges removed at max from one gen, recoverable in 10.71 seconds by 3 survivors with basekit progression, 8.24 seconds with PT. That's less than 4 pallets broken or what it would take you to walk from one gen to another searching for survivors in most maps.
And I really have to explain it by now? Alright: What's good about having a choice if when you have to chose both options are bad unless you are so much lucky for one of the options to be good when you need it? I really need to proc PR right now, but all the hooks are in the other side of the map. But hey, at least I had the option to not do so in case I didn't need it! I hope next time I have a SH nearby gens are progressed a good amount for the option to be good or that I don't down again that one survivor that already proc the perk when I need for it to proc again...
So, instead of having to rely on pure RNG, I would prefer for it to not be a SH and at least being sure that I would get it when I down someone so now the "only" RNG involved is if gens are progressed enough to get the max value. Is really that hard to understand?
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402439#Comment_3402439
I run Agi with PR so every down basically is a hit. I don't care if It procs on a gen with nothing on it because games where that happens often are the ones were I 9-12 hook with 1 gen done. My average first kill is between 6-9 hooks deep. The perk is literally around the same level it is currently if you don't camp/tunnel.
I'm just going to keep track of when I put a player on a scourge and avoid scenarios where I have high pressure and the likelihood of the proc being eaten is higher. Early game is the highest chance for the proc to be eaten which isn't that hard to avoid. If 2 players hit a gen then you know how many were on it and the 2nd should be around double that time. You shouldn't have 1 gen with the only progress in the game. You are either already in a winning postion or playing vs bad players.
The funny thing is you are saying it yourself. You use Agi so you can get to the SH 12 times, which means 12 "dice rolls". That's why the perk can be used reliably right now, because you can use it multiple times to remove up to 13.5 charges everytime even if you depend on RNG and things out of your control to have the full value of it, so doesn't matters if that 13.5 charges can be recovered in 8 seconds by two survivors because you would be able to regress them once again if you keep downing people fast.
PR was good because even if you don't get full value in every hook you did, if you keep doing them, you would regress a lot of progress if you were lucky enough for RNGesus to bless you. Now, if you don't get full value with every of the 4 procs you can do, you would get almost nothing as you would be removing less than 22.5 charges, recoverable as fast as 10.71 seconds by 3 survivors with basekit progression, 4 times per game. And getting that full value is not in your hands as depends on a lot of factors that aren't in your control, including at what rate those charges you erased would be recovered.
But like I said, maybe you are either the luckiest player or the strategic god of DbD and you would be able to use the new PR reliably even with all the RNG involved. I want to know if your opinion is the same about this topic in two weeks from now, as tomorrow the patch goes live.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402410#Comment_3402410
How are you evaluating this "most cases" thing?
How often do you have a gen pop just as you're about to put someone on the hook? Why do you think that happens a disproportionate amount of times?
You spend about 5-10 seconds getting to and placing someone on the hook. (I forget how long it takes to wiggle off, 8 seconds? 12?) The average game lasts about 10-20 minutes and you can make maybe... 5-10 hooks per game depending on how well it's going, so let's say Average 15 minutes and 7 hooks. That's maybe 60 seconds of "about to hook" time over the course of 15 minutes, which equates to 6% of the game.
You're telling me all your gens pop in that 6% window?
I think you're little metaphor applies to your position more than it does to mine. Any given generator will have at least 25% of it's progress for 75% of it's duration. 67 seconds of each generator is a viable Pain Res window, and that happens fives times per game. You have 5 minutes and 40 seconds of any given trial in which to trigger Pain Res and get value out of it, which is over 33% of the match.
I'd say getting value out of Pain Res is precisely 5.5 times more likely than not getting value out of it.
Definitely not "most cases".
What you have made clear is that you don't have any idea of what you are talking about and are over simplifying things. Starting for not taking in count a gen can be done as fast as 30 seconds, and by supposing every gen is going to be done one at a time and not multiple with more than one survivor per gen.
But the best part is "an average game last 10-20 minutes"... in what world? I mean, from what alternative reality are you posting this? 10 minutes? Ar we playing the same game? Dude, I can count with one hand the number of times a game has going past the 6-7 minutes mark whatever it is with me escaping, being hooked, getting a 4k or completely destroyed. In this last week, I would be thankful if any game was beyond the 5 minutes mark with all the PTs, toolboxes and BNPs people are bringing.
Again, you are not seeing the big picture here, you are just obfuscated in that theory of how things would go in your mind without taking in count all the things that are out of your control. And sorry, but seeing that you don't give any real number there for anything you said I even doubt you play the game to start with. Not just not playing killer, but playing the game at all.
10 to 20 minutes on average... the joke of the day 🤣
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402410#Comment_3402410
I literally win my Demo games with the only game delay being PR and I go for 12 hooks with little to no camping/tunneling. It's easy to see how this perk will work. Honestly seems like a skill issue and trying to nitpick the perk. Why would I care about games where survivors are goofing around? My hard games are when survivors are glued to gens. If you are not on a gen you are either in chase, healing, or saving.
And from those 12 hooks you always have a SH nearby and remove the full 15% of the gen of course. You never proc it and you see the gen next to the hook with maybe 1 or 2% done just blow up because the rest of the gens aren't even touched and they just done the one that was being worked on the second you started to hook. And of course, you never hooked the same survivor 2 or 3 times in a row because it is the one survivor that you found and be able to down.
And I'm the one with a skill issue and nitpicking? When you can't see the bigger picture here and are over simplifying things? Sure, buddy. We will talk after a week of the change being done, so you can tell us how much value you did get from the new PR when you don't have 12 chances to proc the perk in a valuable way.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402360#Comment_3402360
Dude, being able to manage the timing in some cases, is better than not being able to manage the timing at all.
Sure, sometimes you might opt for the white hook and the gen pops just as you're about to hook them, of course you just have to suck it up in that case, but that doesn't negate all the instances where the timing doesn't happen that way and you do get to make that choice and have it play out as you intended.
Just because you're not going to be omniscient with perfect knowledge of gen progress at all moments of a match doesn't mean there isn't any value is maintaining gamesense and potentially using any knowledge you do have to your advantage.
Being able to choose when you white-hook someone over not having that choice at all is in all cases a positive to the perk.
"You haven't thought this out" no you've overthought it and hyperfocused on the worst case scenario at the expense of ignoring literally all other scenarios.
The thing is, it is not in "some" cases, it will be in most of the cases. So, you in fact won't be able to manage the timing at all because there are so many factors out of your control that would make it impossible to make use of the perk for full value in a conscious and effective way in most cases.
And I didn't focus in the "worst case" scenario because I didn't even mention just one case to start with, but all the factors that would have to happen for you to get "full value" on purpose from the perk like you two was saying. The perk would be like wanting to draw an specific card from a deck, and here you are claiming that you would be able to do it so well without depending on pure luck that you would get enough value from it to keep using it.
That's why you haven't thought this well, and still don't do.
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@Trollinmon said:
Making it not a scourge hook would be a nerf to the perk honestly. The fact that you can avoid using the proc makes it have more value in my eyes.
The new PR is still a top tier perk like it was before but now it's mostly locked to players that want to spread hooks. Instead of using Agi+PR for 9 hooks you can just run new PR alone for 5 or 7.
There is less time needed to be wasted to get your procs since it's only 4 times and also less problems with hook rng since you only need 4 downs for the total value; unlike before where you really wanted Agi for the full value of the perk.
@Seraphor said:
No.
Removing the Scourge aspect of it now would be a nerf, not a buff.
Now I know Scourge hooks are RNG etc. ect. but the reality is most of the time you can reach a Scourge hook. (this needs a resolution for all Scourge perks, not just Pain Res)
By being a Scourge hook, you are given the choice to trigger Pain Res or not. Given that you now have only four uses of 25% regression, instead of 8 uses of 15% regression, being able to use those at the correct time is very valuable. If you down someone for the first time, but a generator pops as you're picking them up, you do not want to throw them on a Scourge hook, you don't want to use up your 25% regression when there may not be a generator with 25% progress on it yet, so instead of making a bee-line for the nearest white hook, you just opt for the red. You can use that survivors second hook state to trigger a Pain Res later.
This introduces an aspect of strategy to the perk, instead of being a mindless 'hooks = regression' mechanism that favoured tunnellers.
Remove the Scourge part of the perk and you remove that choice, and you'll see your four limited uses of 25% regression wasted more often than not.
All you said here is fine and dandy... but have you think what would happen when you are just in front of the hook after a 10 seconds walk because "you thought it is the right moment to proc PR" like you have any real knowledge of how all gens are doing, and just at that moment a gen just pop up? Would you just let the survivor escape because "Oh well, I can't fully proc PR now"? What if you really need that proc because it is "the right moment", but the nearest hook is in the other side of the map or even worst, the only survivor you have found to down is the one with one hook already? What if survivors have realized you have it and are going to somewhere where the map doesn't have any hooks on purpose?
You two don't have though this well, and don't realize that the perk is only useful right now, in it's current version, because you can proc it multiple times reducing the RNG of "proc it when the time is right", as more "dice rolls" more chances you get value from it in one of them. In fact, hook placement is already a big problem, and having the SH spawn well around the map or just in one corner of it makes a difference in the usefulness of the perk even when you can proc it with every hook.
Now, you first need for RNGesus to bless you with good hook placement, then you need to not only be constantly looking at how gen are doing to make use of your strategy of "proc it in the right moment for full value", but being lucky enough to find that survivor that you didn't hook already, down him fast enough for that gen you want to regress to not be fully completed, pick him up, being less than 16 seconds away from the closest SH, get there, pray that no one would try to body block you, and do the hook to proc it.
Do you really think you can do all of this just by "pure skill and intuition" to get full value without depending on seer pure luck? Do you really believe that the planets would align at the same time someone throw a coin that stand vertically in every game for you to do this reliably not 4 times, but even 2 times per game? Because if the answer is yes then damn, you either are the luckiest people on the planet or are the gods of DbD or something 🤣
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401695#Comment_3401695
4 seconds would mean you somehow got 400% healing speed - or said in a different way - +300% from perks. I have no idea how you would get that. CoH gives you only +100% which results in 8s heal for 2 ppl instead of 16s heal.
Also as said previously - I seriously doubt anyone will be using CoH in a month (or at minimum anyone outside of soloQ or no comms SWF), because totem search time + boon time and then later travel-to-active-boon-time for 2 people will together be always longer then -8s you get from +100% altruism heal. Just wait and see the perk go down to "reactive healing" usage (it makes sense only for soloQ for the aura for other people to know they should go to the area to heal someone else).
Also - the gens done in 4-5 mins means you are terrible chaser = you are loosing A HELL OF A LOT even this patch. Or you are holding your 3gen until the other side surrenders - so this is actually one of a few positive things from this patch - you can't hold 3gen indefinitely any more even if you are not able to land a hit in a full minute repeatedly.
Also - what map contains 30 pallets? AFAIK most pallets in game is around 25 and that is the game - map that contains nothing else but pallets and 3 usable (not even good) windows + 4 trash ones.
How would you get 400% healing? CoH + 2 survivors healing = 4 c/s healing. There, just 1 perk and you don't even need any of the 3 people implied in the healing to be the one to bring it to the game and use it.
8 seconds is for 2 people without CoH healing. 16 seconds / (1c/s * 2 survivors) = 8 seconds. CoH buffs healing in 100%, so one survivor would heal at 2 c/s so 8 seconds heal. You still have problems with simple maths, apparently.
Boon searching has never be a problem because every map have one spawning besides a gen or just at plain sight in "the road". It has never being a problem even when people don't bring any type of totem aura reading perk or a map, why would it start being one now?
Travel time would be a problem if it wasn't because you can bring multiple CoH, the aura is huge and normally you want to still hide from the killer, so you would always go to a remote place to heal instead of doing in the middle of the map. The only situation where this is maybe a problem is when killer drop chase so you are "alone", and in that case you can do what survivors without a medkit or CoH available is doing now that is go to the closest gen and if is someone there get healed, and if there is no one just repair the gen until you find it. It won't be any lost time for the survivors because it is already no time lost for the survivor.
And a 4-5 minutes game is what most games take right know, no matter that you make 8 hooks one after another, because gen progression has being always too fast. Now survivors brings PT, Friendly Competition and BNP with toolboxes almost every game, and WoO to not even have to loop or mindgame, just go from pallet to pallet as then you force the killer to drop chase or having multiple gens done by the time he is going to hook you.
So don't matter if there is 30 pallets or 20 in the map, the thing is I have a recording of me breaking 11 pallets in all the chases and still being unused pallets. Because again, people don't even try to loop or mindgame TLs anymore, they just go from pallet to pallet, and they know they aren't going out of pallets before the rest completes the gens.
You claim non-stop that you play so much killer right now. Pick a M1 low mobility killer and then come and tell me how many chases you had that isn't the survivor pressing W to going to the next pallet over and over again and then count the number of PTs and WoO after the game.
Either way, we will see how things goes tomorrow.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401700#Comment_3401700
if you actually think DH will be the same you probably don't even play dbd lol.
You either start tunneling every single hooked survivor, or DH would still be the same problem as before, as even if you get a free pass for the first chase the next ones would have the "danger" of that survivor to have it, so you would still have to "wait it out" just in case in the second chase, he having it or not.
I think it is you who don't play DbD, or at least not killer.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401700#Comment_3401700
Self healing was 100% stronger then altruistic healing. Loosing it will 100% leave a mark. You must be on copium to say otherwise.
Play killer, find a game without any medkit, and observe how many times more than 2 people are healing and how much time it takes for them to do so. In my experience, not so much. Equip an aura reading perk and notice how many times the healing is done besides gens and on unhook by altruistic. Most of the time. Record it and see how it still makes the game end in 4-5 minutes at max.
The self healing removal would do almost nothing for the killer. The only ones that would see a problem are the people that overrely on it and brought medkits to every game. Someone like me that when play survivor usually brings a toolbox, I won't even notice and I never had a problem in getting healed, not that it took long for other to do so.
But we will see what happens tomorrow.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401287#Comment_3401287
R u actually implying nurse, blight and spirit are not meta?
I'm implying that 3 killers with a combined 11.31% pickrate is not meta? Yes, that exactly what I'm implying. Because it is exactly what it is.
By your definition of "meta" in term of characters (which again, that is not what meta means, not even by the "Most Effective Strategy Available" definition) Wesker is more "meta" than those 3 killers combined even in the top 5% MMR (13.89% vs 25%).
It's not the character you pick, is how you use them. That's the "metagame" inside the game. Someone picking Nurse doesn't mean he is going to use her in the most effective way with the most effective perks.
So, again, you don't even know what meta means.
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@pigslittlepet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401923#Comment_3401923
He does better than you apparently instead of nerfing the few viable ones we should bring the week killers up.
Wooosh!
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@CrossTheSholf said:
Lmao. How about we make other killers more viable instead of nerfing the killers capable of holding their own.
Buffing killers and making them "more" viable? I think you don't understand how things works around here, sir...
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401746#Comment_3401746
I don't think you understand that solo queue players are not and will not coordinate heals.Bad players won't or they will do it poorly so it doesn't matter.These line up with my point that kill rates will rise,since most players will find it difficult to heal themselves,and they will waste time.
CoH is only strong if a team can abuse it,which they will ofcourse.But this lines up exactly with my previous point,with killer regression gone this is an overall buff to strong teams,and a nerf to the casual audiance,and solo queue which will in turn lower the killrates overall.
Regarding Deadhard you can pair it with Decisive,so the killer either eats Ds and you still got Dh for effectively 3 life states,or you get to keep your DH for later.The only difference being you can't use it first chase,so its still a strong perk(which keep in mind only good survivors can get value out of it consistently)
And I don't think you understand that you don't require any coordination, as getting heal is as easy as doing what anyone without a medkit or CoH available would do right now: Just go to a gen and if there is someone in there get healed and if it is not just continue repairing until you find someone. Simple as that.
Also, you don't need a "full SWF team" to "coordinate" to get a heal in CoH. With a two SWF squad with voicecomms would be so easy to just go to the range, do the healing in 8 seconds, and both of you go to the closest gen to get progress. Combine it with perks like Autodidact, PT and / or Friendly Competition and you would get fast heals and even faster gen progression. Again, the problem was the healing times, not what type of healing was being done. If two survivors would heal another in 4 seconds, what is the benefit for the killer there? Time to walk half the way between two generators? One and a half pallet break? 12 charges of gen progress not done that can be recovered in 5.71 seconds with basekit progression if those 3 survivors goes to the same gen after? People don't think before they speak.
And regarding DH, you only confirmed that the nerf would do nothing to it, only make killer start tunneling more and make it even worst as not even tunneling them would avoid for them to get it. So yeah, I'm sure that most of the killer would see a lot of increase in killing rates without doubt, specially the M1 and low mobility killers. It will skyrocket, for sure...
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401287#Comment_3401287
The thing is your definition of "meta" isn't right either, at least according to bhvr, because otherwise you would have to nerf Windows of Oppurtunity, which doesn't make any sense, the correct definition for this should actually be "meta that is too strong will be nerfed" because one perk that people like to play does not automatically mean that they are too strong, but bhvr does it at will (see billy nerf bhvr wanted to perform) they look at the stats for some things and for others they would love to change it but they fear a ######### storm
meta + too strong = change is the best way, but bhvr doesn't have any standards, they make things by feel, that is the issue here
Nerfing WoO doesn't make any sense? Dude, it is like the first perk they should nerf in the next patch so it can be only used once per chase! People aren't even mindgaming or looping tiles like TLs anymore because they just found it is more effective to just go from pallet to pallet with WoO while the others are gen rushing as you would force the killer to drop chase or by the moment he catches you 2 or 3 gens would be done! Seriously, what are you talking about? 🤣
Either way, picking an specific character is not part of the "meta". That is what I meant with that.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401695#Comment_3401695
I think you misunderstood the changes.Dh is gives to the unhooked person,not unhooker,they changed that.
The kill rates btw will increase at lower levels of play(the majority of the playbase) since CoH and deahard singlehandedly won countless games.The amount of games a boon placed in an hard to reach spot gave the team unlimited heals,the amount of chases extended by 30 seconds due to a deadhard,all these things are now gone.And bad players are not the most gen inclined either.
Meanwhile competent killers facing equally skilled opponents are boned,but hey we didn't nerf billy so everyone is praising the upcoming patch.
Dude... precisely because now you receive DH when being unhooked you would be tunneled as the best way to avoid for you to get it is just hitting you the moment you touch ground, as you would lose basekit Endurance and won't be able to use DH later in the chase because the Deep Wound. So, you either hard tunnel every single survivor you hook, or they would get DH. What I didn't understand there?
And no, non of those things are gone as CoH would still give infinite fast healing as before. Self healing was a problem, but was not the problem, overall healing times was. It won't matter if 2 or 3 survivors need to waste time to heal if that time is even less than what would take you to go from one gen to another or break a pallet and catch up with the survivor.
But hey, who knows, maybe this turns out to be the best balancing patch of the history.
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@Gandor said:
Most effective tactics available. And bringing one of these 3 killers is most effective tactics available AKA META.
Anyway - after next patch, these 3 will definitely overperform. None of those 3 needed gen regression perks and they were best killers anyway - so loosing gen regression does not matter for them. On the other hand being injured helps them a lot + DH nerf on top of it. So yes. I am sure they will now overperform a lot
Healing would still be the same as altruistic healing hasn't being nerfed, and DH would still be the same unless you are tunneled hard every single hook. So in any case, they would perform exactly as before.
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@Gandor said:
The difference is, that when the patch lands, kill rate will skyrocket. And you are still complaining....
Yeah, with healing as low as 4 seconds with CoH, DH being the exact same problem as before unless you hard tunnel every single hooked survivor, no effective regression and gens getting done in 4-5 minutes max while you are breaking the pallet number 11 out of 30 I'm sure most of the killers are going to do soooo good in this patch.
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No more using basekit Endurance on unhook as a free DH to block a hit for your buddy and I can still tunnel you if I want as I would have to wait those 10 seconds anyway? Totally agree with this.
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I think you don't even know what "meta" means... and yes, I know this is a complain about the DH nerf, but still 🤣
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@devotedDBDenjoyer said:
how did a nice positive post turn into a killer whinefest? god, you forumers are exhausting
What? Can't we killers whine either? Is that another rule for the Survivor Morals Rulebook? "Only survivors can cry and review bomb the game when they are nerfed. If a killer complain, remember him that all killers are OP and that he should be ban" 🤣
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397605#Comment_3397605
I did not mean that, I meant that if you give a killer a power that is strong enough they can absolutely compete, especially if you camp/tunnel, etc.
Btw it's not half roster, because if it wasn't for busted Syringes, BNP, Prove Thyself, the only killers that aren't be able to compete are Trapper, Hag, Legion, Myers, Freddy, Pig, Ghostface, Sadako, Skull Merchant. Maybe Trickster. 9/31 killers, so less than 1/3. The problem is that they just don't have a chase power. This in a competitive environment. Outside of competitive, only Trapper, Sadako and Skull Merchant suck in public matches.
It has to do with what you said to me, because the game is unbalanced, but not as much as you think, even in a competitive environment. Also clearly something changed internally.
The problem is maps, perks like Off The Record that can be abused with coordination, combos like Flip Flop power struggle, etc.
Because if you consider a competitive match with just killers and survivors, but no perks, no add-ons and no items, and a map like Ironworks of misery, then the only 3/4 killers are weak.
Dude, everything you said there is bad balance.
"Busted perks" are bad balance.
Busted items and addons are bad balance.
Bad map design is bad balance.
Bad balance is bad balance... what are you complaining about when you are agreeing with me, exactly?
And the game is so no unbalanced in a competitive environment that they have to make special rules for survivors so they don't destroy the killers.
And with the next patch? Even more bad balance. It is right now and the seer amount of gen rushing builds with WoO and dropping pallets because survivors have realized that killers can't do anything about gen progression is incredible, just imagine when they finally nerfed PR, CoB and OC. I have never seen so many PTs, toolboxes and BNPs in all the time I have being playing this game that I saw this last week, and they don't even mind game anymore as they know that by just pressing W and going from pallet to pallet gens would be completed in 4 minutes average and they would be tbagging in the exit gates before running out of pallets.
And if you injure them, they just have to go to a gen being done to be healed in seconds as they not only leaved the altruistic heal as it is now, they buffed it. Nerfing the self healing alone would accomplish nothing, but because some streamer said the contrary then everybody was crying about altruistic healing.
When the next patch goes lives, most killers are done, and you are thanking the developers for it because they reverted the nerf to a killer with a 2.18% pickrate. Yeah, good job BHVR! Do you screw the balance even more, but at least Billy's addons are as nerfed as it was before.
Thankfully, we can hope that this is probably the last year that BHVR listen to the cries and start doing real balancing to the game, as now they would have competition and I'm the first in line to give it a try the moment it releases, seeing how BHVR has done things in the last 3 patches.
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@Hunkulese said:
Anyone playing Killer, who has good skills, should be able to pick ANY killer, equip ANY 4 perks (vs 17 survivor perks (BT basekit) plus potentially an additional 4 items & 8 addons) and get 2 kills every single time against GOOD survivors. Login, play killer, play well, and “win” with a 2K every time. 0K and 4K should be rare outliers.
If you're a good killer, it's really easy to 4K in 90% of your games with any killer. If you're a Twins main and any good, it's even easier. Stop blaming the game and focus on improving. The current balance is pretty heavy on the killer side except at the absolute highest levels.
This comment having so many likes really shows why the game is in the state it is right now.
The funny thing is you could say the same to all the survivors that complains in this forum about "X killer is OP" and "9 of 10 times I get killed", right? Just "git gud" and stop blaming the game for not being skillful enough to win against any killer with any perks.
Also, "the current balance is pretty heavy on the killer side"? The game has being so survivor sided for so long that now it being "more fair" to killers while still being unbalanced is being "killer sided", apparently. The worst part is having to read this a week before the patch that's going to unbalance the game even more because survivor mains cried and review bombed the game comes out.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393119#Comment_3393119
Killer is not the problem, low tier killers are the problem @Batusalen .
Pick Pyramid head, and use my "Nastly Gross Tunnel" build: Corrupt, Deadlock, Ruin, No Way Out, Shack Hatch Offering/Mori/More hooks, with which I got a 200+ winstreak. Then MASSIVELY camp and tunnel at 5 gens, put torment around the hook, hit people off hook, go across the map, cage, kill. Here we go, very likely someone is tunneled out dead at 3 gens left! Another likely at 1! It's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to lose unless you find a competitive team, and a 3k is almost guaranteed.
This not only with Pyramid head, but with every killer up to Doctor/Clown if you're good at chasing survivors and play in the nastiest way. Maybe switch some perks, like DMS instead of Ruin on Doc, etc.
The only killers who cannot compete are Freddy, Sadako, Trapper, Pig, Myers, and all the D/C tier killers pretty much.
"Balance is not the problem, almost half the killer roster not being able to compete because of the balance is the problem".
Great argument! Don't even know what it has to do with what you was saying and what I said to you, but yeah, sounds logic to me!
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@ehe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393403#Comment_3393403
Altruistic healing required finding a fellow survivor (off a gen), getting healed for 16 seconds (2 off a gen) and only then did you work on the gen. And if you didnt go get healed, faster chase for the killer in trade of more gen progress (and resilience value for the risk).
With self healing, you can just immediately heal once of the killer is off of you. A hard earned hit, negated in less time than it took to earn (presumably, I'd imagine first hit takes longer than 16 seconds with pallets and all). So that means you dont need to find someone else (less time wasted), you can heal yourself for those 16 seconds (teammate stays repairing, less time wasted), pressure is eliminated faster (less time wasted), and theres no risk because you can heal yourself faster than you would find someone to heal you. Furthermore, you can just 99 your resilience so if the killer is coming, insta heal. No trade off. All the benefits without the negatives.
So to make up for the amount of time saved by self healing, its been nerfed. And because altruistic healing already needed so much time to accomplish, it was left alone.
If its a huge issue just bring sloppy, its already a really good perk and will only get better with this PTB.
@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393701#Comment_3393701
So here's the thing.
If you are working on yourself, you are taking up YOUR time. Nobody else has to stop what they're doing to come over to you and heal you. That means they can spend that time on repairing generators.
By having someone heal you, that is now the time of TWO people being taken up. A total of 32 seconds worth of gen repair that is now not happening.
Healing by yourself is still going to be preferable to healing off another person, especially since none of this takes into account that you have to actually find someone to do the healing in the first place.
@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393941#Comment_3393941
Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Again, I really don't understand what your point even is here. Medkits make healing WAY more time-efficient, leaving the rest of your team free to crank out gens. They invalidate hit-and-run as a strategy, because Survivors can heal from your Sloppy Butcher hits faster than you can dish them out, and you can't catch more than one Survivor healing at a time.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
For any Killer with decent mobility, 16 seconds to find you isn't unrealistic, especially because the more time Survivors spend looking for a place to hide while healing, the less they spend healing or doing gens. Even Killers with no mobility like Ghostface have been known to play hit-and-run for this reason.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Hit-and-run was a niche playstyle because Medkit self-healing hard countered it. Every injury you inflicted could be undone quickly and risk-free.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
That's... not the same logic? Altruistic healing has always been at 16 seconds; setting it to 24 to match the new self-healing would be an unprecedented change. Saying it's okay to change it because it's always been the same as self-healing is more wordplay than actual argument.
Really, I don't know how is so hard to understand that having one item available and not having it is not the same...
Options if a medkit is in play:
- The injure survivor self heals with the medkit (Self Heal).
- Other survivor heals them without medkit (Altruistic Base Heal).
- Other survivor heals them with the medkit (Altruistic Heal).
In this scenario, the most efficient option would be that the injured survivor heals himself over the other two like we all know. Whatever it was him who brought the medkit, or the other person and just drop it to the ground so the injured survivor can use it. As this option exist, doing altruistic healing would means that you are wasting the time of a survivor that could be doing something else instead of just letting the injured survivor heal and not waste that time. So, in this specific case, yes, doing self healing is more efficient than altruistic.
And it is totally logical for it to be this way, as again, it requires something extra that maybe you can't have available for you at that time: A medkit. The main advantage of the medkit was always have the ability to self heal yourself without the help of anybody to begin with. So, again, is logical that having a medkit available for the injured survivor to self heal to be an advantage over basekit altruistic heal. And this is not a problem at all, because again, you can drop your medkit for everybody to be able to use it.
Options if a medkit is not in play:
- Other survivor heals them without a medkit (Altruistic Base Heal)
And that's it! You don't have any more options here, because there is no medkit. And because you don't have any more options (unless you count "No healing" as an option) you are not wasting any time doing the altruistic healing, because if you want to heal, you don't have any other way to do it. Meaning, those 16/24 seconds invested in it would have to be spent yes, or yes, and therefore they won't be "a waste" of anyone's time, much less gen progression.
So, now that we know the differences of "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", again: Self healing is more efficient than altruistic healing only when you have a medkit at hand. If you don't, you won't be wasting any time (less so double the time of the healing) because you can't do anything else to get the heal.
Those two situations, "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", are two completely different situations and comparing them directly to make any type of argument is a false equivalency fallacy. And if you don't see it by now, it's on you.
The funny thing is even if you all were right about this, this not even explains why altruistic healing wasn't a problem before. Even more so now than altruistic healing can be as low as 4 seconds. More so when most of the time healing would happen when it is not an inconvenient and the "travel time" don't even matter (for example, after completing a gen). So, you keep saying that it is "more convenient to the killer" when it is not.
And if "medkits needed change" and "altruistic healing should be lower because falsely comparing it with healing with a medkit is less efficient", they could just keep the 24 seconds, buff CoH like they are doing, and change the medkits from 50% to 100% to have the same effect as now with the best medkit you would get a healthy survivor and 21 charges in a gen in the same time a single survivor would heal themselves (24 seconds vs 12 seconds heal, 12 seconds both doing a gen) while still giving breathing time to the killer.
But yeah, whatever the masses says. We will have to see what happens when the patch comes out.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393808#Comment_3393808
Multiple perks can be wasted. DH, SB, Pop, Blast mine, head on, heck even old PR as we've had your scenario happen before. As we've said before killers can chose (little but its there) when to try and apply that 25% and now we got to be smarter about it when playing killer.
Fair enough to your own thoughts on the healing but we still think the medkits needed changed and not overall healing.
We saw "Tunneling to prevent DH" more as "Tunneling to prevent this survivor from getting DH" as they needed to save others to activate it. This gave killers a reason to go for the unhooked as it was guaranteed they didnt have DH active (atleast for the first one). Currently going for the unhooker is the same thing instead of the unhooked.
In your scenario it wouldn't matter which survivor you went for at the start though we feel your correct that it would encourage tunneling later in the match. Either you hit the unhooked through bt and keep going (as an aside, we've had killers, ourself included, wait out basekit protection if they want a survivor bad enough) or go for the unhooker and no DH for them assuming its not someone already hooked. When your scenario happens.
If survivors are unhooking 5 meters from the killer, then they are either new, trolls, or desperate. Even in solos we often get people who know how to safely save.
We don't realy see it benefiting bubba though as he really cant be countered camping if the player has a brain. It buffs camping, but dont think it even maters to bubba.
Nice way of simply ignoring every single point I gave to you.
In my "scenario", what are you supposed to do if they just complete a gen when you are in front of the hook with the survivor? Drop it? Let it escape so they can progress the gens some more before hooking him for the first time so you can get the most benefit from PR? Because I don't know in what other way we could chose when to proc the perk if that happens. Not that you really have a choosing in when exactly you down and hook survivors anyway, but hey, I'm trying to stick to your logic here.
And why overall healing didn't needed a change? Because again, people don't stop repeating "altruistic healing should be lower than self healing with a medkit" and "altruistic healing wasn't the problem" but yet I don't see anybody giving a good and logical reason of why.
And what you said there doesn't change the fact that now your best option is to tunnel every single unhooked survivor to avoid him to get DH later in the game.
But yet again, you do you man. Whatever all of you say (BTW, who are we?).
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393717#Comment_3393717
"Killer mains complain about the PTB changes"
"BHV revert the changes using their feedback"
Killer mains from the forums: "SNIF SNIF BHV HATES KILLERS"
"I post killer mains that stream that agree with the changes"
Killer mains from the forum: "OH YES, THE GREAT STREAMERS..."
🤭
Yeah, I'm sure it was "killers main" the ones review bombing the game since the PTB was announced.
And again, we all know that the council of streamers have the ultimate wisdom in their hands and can never be wrong...
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393896#Comment_3393896
It's very simple. Take single survivor (as other survivors are the same thing - so ypu can simplify). To get full proc out of PR, you had to be able to 3x get that person to hook. For any other scourge, the debuff was applied on unhook, so each of those could proc at most 2x. Now for new PR, you get full 25% regression no matter if you are able to get that person on 1st, 2nd or even 3rd hook. Any one of those 3 instances will give you full benefit. Meaning you have 3 tries instead of having to get correct hook 3x in a row. This is quite a benefit from RNG-wise to get scourges.
Sure. Overall new PR is weaker then old PR, because potential and attainable 45% is more then "easy" 25%. But again. The chance to get full value is definitely higher with new PR then it is right now and the difference is substantial. The only real limiting RNG factor is no longer on having scourge hook at all, but more in line of what you have already said - if there's non-blocked gen that has at least 25%. This might not be so, but it's very likely that at the beginning during your first chase this will almost always be true.
So, PR is less dependant on RNG because instead of getting the effect guaranteed if you were lucky in the first dice roll at the start of the map you can throw the dice 3 times instead of getting the effect 2 times... no, yeah, sound logic to me!
If you proc the effect on a gen with 1% of progress, you are not getting "full benefit". Simple as that.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393890#Comment_3393890
despite those problems the perk is still good. i didn't take those problems into account because the scenarios where it's good and the scenarios in which it goes unused because you're overperforming and don't need it far outweigh the amount of time you're getting outplayed while running it.
i think you're fundamentally misunderstanding why i brought up the streamer. i'm not using them as an argument, i'm using them as an analogy. i'm saying complaining about not getting value from pain res is analagous to complaining about not getting value from endgame perks, because in my experience, a vast majority of the time the reason you aren't getting value, at least in my experience, is because you're winning too hard for them to matter.
Of course. That's why you, again, said "because you're overperforming" when again, there are many times when you won't get value from it precisely because gens are getting done fast and just in the moment you are going to hook the most progressed gen gets done. That among all the possible outcomes that luck and pure RNG could make you have while using it that isn't "I didn't have the chance to get value from it because I'm destroying the survivors this match".
If there is two gens left, you are about to hook for the first time a survivor after getting two hooks in other two survivors (5 total) and just before you do it one gen is completed and the other 3 gens don't have any progress in it, you didn't get value from the perk because you are doing so good and are in such a good place having 4 survivors alive with just 1 gen left to go that you won't need it! My false equivalency fallacy says so!
Again, whatever makes you sleep better at night, man. I'm not going to argue against the same illogical point over and over again.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393700#Comment_3393700
That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH. Unless you're running Self-Care, which is garbage because it's less efficient than just healing normally.
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
If you want "evidence" that altruistic healing isn't a problem, what better evidence could you ask for than the game's entire history? Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it.
What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH.
Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
Grouping up can be done more safely now without using voice comms, and nothing of that changes this.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
So, that proves absolutely nothing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393866#Comment_3393866
It's fair that Call of Brine and Overcharge are nerfed because they were only really strong in 3-gen scenarios, end of statement. Though, it is worth mentioning that CoB is still a decent perk, it's just an info perk instead of a regression perk now.
It wouldn't be fair for Eruption to get absolutely nerfed into the ground, so it's a good thing that hasn't happened.
I can't read people's minds, but I suspect a lot of survivors will drop Dead Hard since it's so much weaker now. If I'm wrong, fair enough, but the perk's still been made much weaker, so I won't complain.
And again with the "CoB and OC was only useful in 3 genning". CoB + OC was the only way to regress gen over time reliably. You can use them in any gen kicking build without even pretending to do 3 genning and still get value from it. They reduced the total time for regressing a gen from 6 whole minutes to 2:40, making you able to punish survivors for not completing generators fast as if they just leave a gen almost done alone by the time they come to it, it would have lost most of it's progress.
I don't know who the hell said that for you people to repeat it non stop, but saying that having more regression is not useful in any other way is nuts. And now that they are nerfed to the ground, regression over time is no more. And now that the best insta-regression perk is nerfed so you need to have a lot of luck to get value from it, insta-regression have also get a huge hit.
This was fine before because they would also nerf the healing, but now altruistic healing won't be nerfed so it is definitely not fine and they should have reverted at least part of the regression nerfs.
But like I said, we will have to see what happens when the patch comes out.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393815#Comment_3393815
PR is least dependent on RNG out of all scourge hooks rn. Because it's the only one, that will give you full benefit no matter if you use it on 1st, 2nd or 3rd hook. Most other scourges get value only from 1st AND 2nd. Meaning effectively the RNG aspect is 1/2 for PR compared to other scourges.
"Full benefit" when it could not do even a fraction of it's full regression depending on the moment you use it? Are you sure about that?
But alright, I will play: What other Scourge Hook perk of the 4 is more dependent on RNG than PR and why being useful in 3º hook have anything to do with RNG? Put me an example and explain me why. Here, so you don't even have to look for the perks:
Scourge Hook Perks are Perks that interact with and depend on the Scourge Hook Mechanic, which was first introduced with CHAPTER 21: Hellraiser™ in Patch 5.2.0. There are currently 4 Scourge Hook Perks available in Dead by Daylight. Equipping a Scourge Hook Perk transforms a few selected Hooks, which are randomly selected throughout the Trial Grounds, into Scourge Hooks. Scourge Hooks inflict Survivors, who are either hooked onto or unhooked from them, with various adverse effects, depending on -
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393815#Comment_3393815
my go-to, "I don't know what I feel like playing so I'll just throw something dependable on" build on basically everyone from nurse to pig has been lethal, floods, pain res, and a 4th flex slot (usually more aura reading like bitter murmur or BBQ but sometimes it's a chase perk like STBFL or bamboozle).
I'm well aware of the problems that sometimes arise with hook placement and I think there should be a buff to all scourge hook perks that ensures a certain distance in between scourge hooks (thus ensuring they're not all grouped up on one side of the map)
usually, I'm able to take pretty good advantage of pain res. occasionally a gen gets popped and I get outplayed that way, but I find that doesn't happen too frequently, especially when i take perks that help me start and end chases quickly. I find if I'm not getting value from the perk, more often than not it's the "playing too well for it to kick in" category rather than the other one.
not sure what you're trying to say with your objection to my example with the streamer (maybe try rephrasing it if you want a response? but i felt it wasn't something that needed responding to in the first place, that was just an illustrative example of the mindset i was trying to describe - don't be salty if you're playing so well that you don't even need the perks you brought)
You are aware of the problems that PR has, but you made an argument without taking in count any of those problems... k.
And you said it yourself, you have "perks that help start and end chase quickly", which give you more hooks, which give you more chances to get a "good hit" of PR in a gen with a lot of progress. That's why PR was still viable even if you depended on RNG for the hooks to be placed in good spots, because you can proc it everytime you hooked someone. Now, because you would only have 4 chances to remove progress from gens, if you hook for the first time a survivor and the most progressed gen only has 5% done in that moment, quarter of the perk wasted. Hook two survivors twice instead of doing 4 distributed hooks, and that's a lot of time the gens are progressing without any regression done. I think this is not that hard to understand, even more if you are using PR in most of your games.
And my objection is simple: You saw one thing one time happening to one person, and you really believe is a good example to use to make a point like "If you are unable to get value of a perk based on RNG is because you either doing good or survivors bad" like there is no other possible scenario or outcome where the perk would be useless but you really needed it to do it's thing.
And it is funny to me that you accuse me of "being salty for playing well" when it's you who use that specific case to make a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. But you do you, man.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393826#Comment_3393826
Except that - on live - if someone uses Dead Hard and you drop chase on them, they'll have Dead Hard back by the time you chase them again, no hook required. With this change, if they get a successful Dead Hard and you have to drop the chase, that's it, no more Dead Hard until they're hooked again. Right now, on live, survivors don't just have two opportunities to use Dead Hard- that might be as many as they successfully hit because the perk is relatively easy to counter outside pallets, but they have many more opportunities than just two, especially with them staggered to be between hooks. It's also worth not glossing over the fact that survivors cannot use it in their first chase, which is a pretty noticeable change from how it is right now.
As for hitting them to trigger Deep Wounds, sure, if you're going to tunnel them, but there really isn't any reason to do that as a general rule. The only reason you would, that'd be relevant to this topic anyway, is if you're stubbornly committed to refusing to ever see a Dead Hard proc, and like... why? When the perk can be used off cooldown every 40 seconds, that's frustrating, that's an omnipresent threat in chase that can get on a killer's nerves. When the perk can be used once per hook, that's barely worth worrying about, frankly.
This patch is, bluntly, not a killer nerf. Yes, Pain Resonance being made a little less consistent is a nerf to killers, no doubt about it, but everything else is either a neutral + necessary change for most killers like the CoB/Overcharge nerfs, or actively good, like the complete removal of fast and reliable self healing. This is an overreaction.
Again, "one use per chase" is what you have to deal with most of the time even now. If you have chased someone enough time for them to use DH most than probably you won't drop the chase either way, whatever because them using it means that you have cornered them so much that you know you would catch him again soon, or because you now know that them don't have it and your next hit is guaranteed. Nobody is saying that there isn't exceptions to this, but again, in most cases you would deal with DH once per chase already.
And DH have many counters for most killers that don't inflict Deep Wound, yes: Waiting it out so they have the chance to reach a window or a pallet or they getting it in a fast hit after 5 seconds waiting anyway whatever it is because godlike reaction time, lag or auto DH being used. So many counters.
And why you would be "stubbornly committed to resfusing to ever see a DH proc"? You said it yourself! Because you don't tunnel the unhooked survivor and they get DH, it would become an "omnipresent threat in chase" that is a counter-of-all-trades to the point it can literally counter the damage proc of The Trickster knifes among other things! Are you really making that question when you literally give yourself the answer?
And this patch, completely, a killer nerf. They destroyed regression to the point where maxing it out with CoB + OC you would need 4:30 minutes to fully regress a gen (before, 2:40), and DH would still be the exact same problem it is now unless you tunnel. Those changes was done to solve 3 genning to compensate for the healing as it would be more easy for killers to get downs, so the new game balance by mechanics would be "Survivors pressure killers by doing gens but can't reset damage to nullify injure pressure, and Killers pressure survivors by hurting them but can't regress gens to nullify gens done pressure".
Now? Killer can't pressure survivors by regressing the gen not injuring them, but survivors can still let go the gen to go healing at lighting speed without having to worry about their gens regressing anymore. Not only that, but they can recover the time lost healing easy (12 seconds spent healing another one with a medkit is recoverable in 9.41 seconds by those two survivors working on a gen). So, now gen rushing is strong than ever as gen regression is no more, while coordinated SWF would have it more easy than ever.
With this said, again, this is what this patch looks like "in papper". Maybe when it come out things aren't that bad... but hell they look so bad in the theory.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393777#Comment_3393777
I genuinely don't understand this idea that new Dead Hard incentivises tunnelling so you "don't have to deal with it". Deal with what? A maximum two uses of Dead Hard, staggered between hook states? Those uses that, also, weren't changed in any way so all the current counters are still very much in place? That still inflict Exhaustion, so most chases are going to be a little easier because they don't have other Exhaustion perks?
It's such a wild take to me. It's like everyone's so blindly mad at Dead Hard they've forgotten what the perk actually does and that a single use of Dead Hard really isn't actually all that much of a problem. You only have to tunnel in response to Dead Hard if you're blindly and doggedly committed to never seeing it used ever, and that's just kind of a silly view to take. Straight up, this new change means you can basically stop trying to prevent Dead Hard at all, because they'll get a maximum of two dropped chases from it- and those two dropped chases require being hooked twice to achieve them.
As for coordinated SWFs and new Circle of Healing, we'll have to see. Like I said, it's not as though that perk is the only way they could get stupid fast heal times, so at least now they have to be grouped up in order to do it- that is, no matter what way you slice it, better than before. If it's too much, fair enough, CoH will have to get yet another nerf.
I believe you don't understand it if you don't realize that "two uses of Dead Hard per survivor" AKA "one use per chase" is what you have to deal with most of the time even now. Again, they just removed the use they would have when you have your first chase with them, after that you either deny it by triggering the basekit Endurance on unhook so Deep Wound doesn't allow them to use it, or it is back to dealing with it exactly as it is now. So, it would make tunneling the unhooked survivor if you have the chance just the better option over going after the unhooker.
And it is not a "silly view to take" when you have to chose between trigger Endurance on unhook so you get your next hit guaranteed or letting them get DH and be able to protect themselves from a hit whenever it's more beneficial for them (for example, in a pallet). I mean, I think is a pretty good strategic decision to make.
And I think is not a big mistake to say that coordinated SWF that can know exactly the best moment to spend time healing would benefit from being able to heal someone in 4 - 8 seconds, again, being able to reset 3 survivors in 12 seconds while the killer is busy chasing their looper. Again, a pretty good strategic decision to make.
But yeah, we will have to see how all this thing goes, because in paper it just changed from a patch that established a good start to balance the game for both sides to yet again another killer nerf.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393733#Comment_3393733
i remember watching a streamer get a 4k at like 3 gens remaining with a full endgame build and sarcastically complain "oh no, i didn't get to use any of my perks"
this is that. if you're not getting any regression out of your scourge hook procs, there's a 98% chance its because survivors are doing nothing. the goal of the game is to get hooks and eventually kills, not to make gen progress disappear. you didn't get value out of scourge hooks because there was no gen progress? feel free to take a screenshot of the "merciless killer" end game screen, print it out, and wipe your tears with that.
Tell me you don't play killer or use PR without telling me you don't play killer or use PR.
Many times, when carrying the downed survivor to the Scourge Hook would just happen that survivors complete 1-2 gens just when you are going to hook, making the effect proc on the next gen with most charges that could be as low as 1%. This is something out of your control and that can happen at pure chance, not because survivor wasn't doing anything. Now it would be even worst as you only have 4 chances to "get a good hit", instead of everytime you would down someone (and RNGesus have blessed you with reachable scourge hook around the map).
And as a killer that his main build has PR as his only regression perk right now, I can tell you there is a world between getting lucky with Scourge Hook placements or not. If you don't get as much Scourge Hooks as you can, you would not do any noticeable regression.
Also, you saw 1 case and then all the cases are just like what that streamer lived. We all know that's how reality works.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393733#Comment_3393733
Decent as the gen with the most progress loses a Quarter of total progress now. Would you rather it be back to 15% per token? We don't like the nerf, but saying it didn't get something back would be lying. Add to the fact that you can CHOOSE if you want someone on that shiny hook, you have some (not alot admittedly) control over when you want it.
For the healing speed thing (and this is opinion based like the rest) that 2 survivors healing each other for practically a gen's worth of time just plain wrong.
...not sure what your going on about for the 3rd paragraph so if please explain if you want us to think of a thought out answer.
A quarter of total progress loss if the most progressed gen has a quarter of total progress in it to begin with the moment you hook a survivor for the first time. If while carrying the survivor to the hook they complete a gen an the next one has only 2% of progress in it, it would regress just a 2% of progress. And I would prefer if them just removed the "Scourge Hook" requirement from it so it would depend a little less on RNG instead of making it stronger, at least.
And they could just keep the 24 altruistic seconds, buff CoH to 100% as they are doing, buff the medkits to go from 50 to 100% of healing also and they would have the same effect in terms of "altruistic healing being equal as self healing with a medkit is a problem because a streamer said so" as now healing someone with the best medkit would reward you with a healthy survivor and almost 21 charges in a gen instead of the 24 charges that would take the survivor to heal themselves, while still giving some breathing time to killers. But no, because people would still complain that they being equal is still a problem as someone, somewhere said so.
And I think is simple to understand. Before, taking in count an scenario where the killer can get the unhooked survivor soon after being unhooked, if they decided to go after the unhooked survivor they would first have to deal with the basekit protection (Endurance + Haste) for 10 seconds, making the chase longer and almost impossible for the unhooker to not get DH, as for it to not being a "Safe Unhook" the unhooked survivor need to get downed again. From the wiki:
For an unhook to be considered as such, the just unhooked Survivor must not enter the Dying State for the following 10 seconds.
So, despite what people said, tunneling to denying DH was not a viable option unless you already planned to tunnel, so it wasn't an incentive to do it. Now? Now it would not only incentivice it, it is the best decision to make, as someone already with Deep Wound won't get the protection hit from DH. If you want to avoid the unhooked survivor to get it, you just need to trigger the basekit Endurance for him to get Deep Wound.
In other words, DH would not help you in that situation as there is no way a killer that has you on his attack range would simply wait the 10 whole seconds so you can get to chose when you are protected of the hit by using DH. They would hit you to trigger basekit Endurance, and just keep chasing you like they would do anyways. In fact, this change would benefit killers than can camp reliably like Bubba the most.
DH won't only not protect you from being tunneled , but now you would only get DH when survivors stop unhooking you with the killer 5 meters away of the hook... yeah, good luck with that. That's what happens when people complain of things they don't fully understand.
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@jesterkind said:
So... just to be clear, killers are going to change roles and leave the game because... the game got better for them?
Don't get me wrong, I'm also kind of irked that we're not getting the cool healing slowdown idea from the PTB, but the death of reliable, safe self-healing and a gigantic nerf to Dead Hard are cause enough to celebrate. Hell, it's not as though Pain Res is going to be dead after this patch- old Pop four times a match isn't bad, it's just weaker than what it currently is.
It's too easy to get blinded by the changes from PTB to live, but if you look at this patch as a change from current live, it's very clearly a huge positive.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393720#Comment_3393720
I don't know that they did make altruistic healing all that much better, personally.
100% bonus on CoH is a little scary, but survivors already had access to that exact number on We'll Make It, which arguably has less requirement- it's a timer after an unhook, but that's arguably not as restrictive as a specific radius that requires setup. We'll have to see how it settles on live, but I have a suspicion the only people who are gonna use CoH to any huge effect are going to be super coordinated SWF types, and it's not as though they only have that option for getting that value if they want it.
Besides, how would that translate to killers leaving? A handful of matches may be a little harder, that's worst case scenario, and all other matches have the very impactful medkit + CoH nerfs.
Pain Res is totally and utterly dead. It depends so much in RNG (as now you have to be lucky on the spawn of the hooks as before, but also get lucky that the first time you hook every survivor the gen with the max progress is not just 5%, making the regression almost useless) that doesn't matter how strong the perks is.
The nerf to DH is not "gigantic", it's ok at much and would only accomplish more people tunneling and camping, as now the best way to deny a DH is to hit the survivor the moment they are unhooked to trigger Deep Wound so they can not use it. That, or simply make them die in the first hook. The only advantage is knowing you don't have to worry about it in the first chase, but after that you would need to do those strategies nobody seems to like or deal with it anyway.
A coordinated SWF being able to reset all the team damage in 12 seconds (as 100% bonus of 2 survivors healing another is 4 c/s AKA 4 seconds to heal someone) is not "a little scary", is busted. I don't know who started this trend of "altruistic healing is not the problem" but they are so wrong, specially with SWF in mind. Also, the "setup" is spending 14 seconds while the other survivors do their thing that would pay themselves if the killer don't snuff the boon. And you can't compare We'll Make it with it for that exact reason, as CoH would stay in place all the time when it is needed, so you can choose the appropriate moment (when the killer is busy chasing someone, for example) to get the befits from it.
I don't agree with OP in the "killers would stop playing" part, but saying this patch have not ended being a huge nerf to killers when they basically destroyed regression and buffed altruistic healing is just denying the evidence.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392881#Comment_3392881
First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it.
Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. The newest one at least gives a reason to go for the unhooked instead and protection against killers who wait out the base kit bt.
Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES.
Lastly you straight avoided our questions.
PR got a decent compensation for it? Are you real?
Before, you needed to get lucky with Scourge Hook spawning, as if they all spawned in the same corner of the map, you are screwed. It was still useful because if you was lucky, you would get the effect everytime you hooked someone, so if you get downs fast you could use it reliably and have more chances for it to really do some slowdown.
Now? You don't only need to be lucky with the hook placement, you would need to be lucky that when you first hook someone the max progressed gen is not just 4-5% done, as that would be a waste of the effect. And if you aren't lucky enough those 4 times then puff! Perk's gone, and you didn't get value from it.
PR nerf was ok when all healing times was higher as the killer would get more downs and PR would become more oppressive, so it needed balance. But now that they reduced the healing again (because everybody repeat the mantra that altruistic healing wasn't a problem, yet not one person can explain or give a compelling argument of why it wasn't) PR depends so much in RNG that it would be almost useless no matter if it's strength is 15, 25 or 90%.
Oh, and by the way, DH won't serve you in that situation for the simple reason that if you are getting tunneled on unhook the killer would simply have to hit you to trigger the basekit protection for you to not be able to use DH, as Deep Wound would make it to not protect you from the hit anymore. So it is just as before, but worst.
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Oh yes, the great streamers. Because we all know they have the ultimate wisdom, even when they are unable to take a changelog and understand it as a whole and not just complain about the individual parts of it.
Streamers are also players, not game designers. In fact, they are worst than your average player as they have an audience that would simply repeat whatever they say no matter how wrong they are.
I don't agree with what OP said, but using the "streamer council" to argue anything without taking in count if what they said is true or not is so funny.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393694#Comment_3393694
I will tell you a secret. CoH will not be used in comms SWF like almost never. 8s is not enough time saved if you have to consider 2 people need to travel to it (so if the distance for at least 1 person is 4s longer then their middle point, then CoH makes no sense). This does not even begin to factor search totem time, blessing time and possible need to do that again.
The only people that will be using the perk are MAYBE some soloQ, that will just blindly bet on the fact, that other people will actually decide to go and help them when they see their aura...
And you know that because you have a crystal ball that tell the future, right? Because obviously, being able to reset all the team in 12 second without the need of using items won't be useful for a coordinated full SWF premade or anything.
Anyway, again, that's a CoH "problem", but if you want to explain why altruistic healing wasn't a problem so it didn't need to be higher as self healing, I'm all ears.
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393403#Comment_3393403
Because healing yourself at the same speed as healing another person is kinda silly.
Why would you ever willingly get someone else to heal you when you can do it in the same time while the second person now doesn't have to take time away from gens?
Because to be able to heal yourself you need a medkit. If there is no medkit available, you need someone to heal you.
But I want to know why altruistic healing is not a problem, and "is kinda silly" is not a valid argument, I'm afraid.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393403#Comment_3393403
Well, one survivor healing themselves can just run off into a corner (While their teammates are free to keep doing gens), heal themselves, and then get right back on gens. Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
It is also risky to group up for any reason, because if the Killer finds you, they disrupt multiple Survivors at once. And if they catch you while healing, they're likely to get a free hit out of it, maybe even a quick down, and the Survivors will have spent all that time trying to heal for nothing.
And speaking personally, when I've played Survivor, I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
It is also risky to group up for any reason
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
And you really spend your time actively searching for healing, or you just do your thing until you simply cross paths with other survivor, whatever by chance or because you hear a gen being worked on? Because unless you start running across all the map to find someone without doing anything else, you are not wasting any time in getting healed.
So, again, all this not explain why altruistic healing is not a problem to begin with.
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@randonly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393403#Comment_3393403
because it took 8 seconds for you to heal without needing the team's help with med-kit and stacked with coh, denying the pressure of the killer at any time of the match, specially against mid-tier killers (which will start to be felt more now in the middle to the end of the match)
Taking 16s to heal altruistically (or more, if you take into account mangled, hemorrhagic etc) or around 10~12 altruistic with coh/med-kit, is ok for you to take the focus off from the gens (-2 or 3 survivor healing each other), then you differentiate self-heal from altruistic for both to be used correctly and tactically
because it took 8 seconds for you to heal without needing the team's help with med-kit and stacked with coh, denying the pressure of the killer at any time of the match, specially against mid-tier killers
But that was a problem with medkits and CoH allowing self healing (now solved), not an explanation of why altruistic healing is not a problem.
Taking 16s to heal altruistically (or more, if you take into account mangled, hemorrhagic etc) or around 10~12 altruistic with coh/med-kit, is ok for you to take the focus off from the gens (-2 or 3 survivor healing each other), then you differentiate self-heal from altruistic for both to be used correctly and tactically
That's the thing, they buffed CoH so now it would take 8 seconds to heal someone altruistic, a full SWF can reset all the damage technically in 16 seconds (two survivors healing: 2 c/s + 100% = 4 c/s = 4 seconds to heal one survivor).
And if we take in count real scenarios, altruistic healing happened when the injured survivor didn't have a medkit available to heal himself, so normally he would stay injured until finding another survivor whatever it is in a gen, crossing path with him, hook healing if the killer is distracted or a coordinated SWF resetting the damage on purpose so no travel time need to be counted.
So, how is altruistic healing not a problem when it would take from 8 to 16 seconds approx with just 1 survivor healing and 4 to 8 seconds with 2 to heal other survivor? More so taking in count that time can be recovered in a gen in much less time if those survivors group up to go to a gen (2: 16 charges in 9.41 seconds. 3: 8 charges in 3.80 seconds).
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@Monlyth said:
Healing Nerfs- No complaints. Self-healing was the problem, not altruistic healing.
Hillbilly Changes- Good choice. I would consider making Engravings basekit at some point, though.
Dead Hard- Less than ideal. The perk is just Off the Record now, but worse in almost every way. I could see this being used in a Decisive Strike build with OtR, but never being used instead of OtR. That being said, the Live version is way too prevalent and the first PTB version encouraged tunneling, so I don't really have a better idea for a nerf.
I think it's just going to fluctuate between overused and barely usable so long as it remains an activatable Exhaustion perk. I'd rework it to do something completely different, but that's probably off the table for this update.
Pain Resonance- Strongly approve of this. It looks powerful enough to actually be usable now, and I'd gladly run a regression perk that rewards me for not tunneling, if it gave enough value.
Can you please explain to me why just self healing was the problem and not altruistic healing, if you don't mind?
Because I hear everybody saying those exact same words, but not a single one of them have given any reason or explanation for this "fact".