Batusalen
Batusalen
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552572#Comment_3552572
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by defaultYour post is the equivalent of saying 2+2=4, anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with math.
Yeah, those are the numbers, but your conclusion still doesn't make any sense. The survivors are still going slower working together then they would if they were split up.
Why is ~53 seconds somehow unreasonable to do a gen when it is taking two of the survivors time? They are losing roughly 8 seconds if they hadn't been split up.
Your argument is based on the presumption that anyone looking at the numbers would agree its a problem, but they're not. Survivors make a trade off by working together on a gen, less overall progress, easier to be interrupted, but increase the chance to finish it before a regression.
I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen.And if they were split up, one of those people never would have even needed to get off the gen.
And haven't you thought that perhaps what you are doing is precisely disagreeing with math? Just saying.
You can argue of the effects that changing that number could bring, but all of you are not doing that. Even by reducing the base progression multiplayer, it would still be more effective to split up or play however you think is the most efficient way. That is not an argument against it being so high that is the core of all the symptoms people in this post are saying are the real problem (spawn points, toolboxes, etc.).
No, the problem is not a toolbox granting a +50% progression bonus, the real problem is the progression of two survivors being 1.7 c/s to begin with. And I already did the math proving that.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552655#Comment_3552655
Choosing to not engage when proven wrong merely proves you further wrong. Thinking a normal match is too quick, when I was consistently winning Clown matches with the 80s gens, shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how to play Killer, whether that be in micro (chases) or macro (gens/pallets). Check guides as how to play Killer if the gen times are a legitimate issue for you. Alternatively purposely 8 hook for a week (without kills), and intentionally lower your MMR. After that, you should be able to play in less sweaty matches, win normally, then finally reach a good equilibrium of Survivors with your skill level.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552685#Comment_3552685
The devil is in the details. Deadlock prevents multi-gen pops, so I would only consider that 'necessary' on Pig to space headtraps going red for greater pressure, or a dedicated facecamper build, but even then that is more QoL for Pig than truly necessary. Corrupt Intervention helps shore up a weak early game, which can be mitigated by playing the game on both sides and learning the spawn mechanics better, or hopping into bot matches with Lethal Pursuer for an hour and getting a 'feel' for the game. Once you have a general idea of where people will spawn and how, such as quad spawns, dual duo spawns, and split spawns, you can play accordingly and not 'need' Lethal/Corrupt anymore. I will admit I am a Lethal Pursuer addict, but I often run at least 1 other aura effect alongside it as well.
What is the counter for camping? Don't be hooked? Ok, are Survivors designed to never go down? No, Bloodlust exists, pallets are finite, the entity blocks windows after the 3rd vault, so Survivor is designed to eventually go down. Is it possible to do anything on hook? You can end the game sooner... So you are in a situation without agency. Agency is key, as you can always make a different play as Killer, but Survivor is balanced around moments of no agency before you are allowed to play the game again. Camping denies an end to the agency-less situation. Agency is the issue. I too hate genb4fren, but camping from the onset encourages that instead. The anti-facecamp gives some semblance of agency, but still won't prevent proxycamping choke points instead.
Choosing to use strawmans and ad hominems to engage is what really proves you wrong. I'm not even going to try to debate with you if you are going to simply ignore everything I say and paint my arguments as being "in bad faith", whatever you meant with that.
Again, I already gave an extended explanation of how and why base progression with two survivors is the real problem. If you keep not understanding it, it's your fault. And if you want to address the real points I made instead of yet again bringing specific situations, subjective experiences and various fallacies to the table here I am. Meanwhile, I'm not even going to try to read whatever you said.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552648#Comment_3552648
That's what they're trying to do, but they're using evidence that it's killer sided in order to do it. Which is fine, it's good that on the individual level the game is killer sided! It's just also good to be honest about this fact
The evidence you have provided shows it is not killer sided, but extremely survivor sided. Next time understand what you are talking about before saying anything if you don't like to be told how wrong you are.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552307#Comment_3552307
Can you please explain the math behind this, how a 60% kill rate transfers to a 40% winrate? It doesnt add up with my math, so maybe you can explain.
Let's take 100 matches.
- 100 matches = 400 survivors.
- 60% killrate = 240 survivors.
- 240 in 100 matches = 2.4 survivors killed per match.
- Or, if you want it shorter: 60% of 4 = 2.4
So, to put it simply, that would means 2K in most games with occasional 3K on average.
A 50% kill rate would means that killer always draw with survivors (2K in every game), while survivors win 50% of their games. So, no wins for killers. That's why a 53% killrate is not even close to be "killer sided", at contrary, it means that killers are losing most of their games.
In other words, in his attempt to claim how grateful he is that the game is "a little killer sided", he has proved that it is full survivor sided.
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@ratcoffee said:
A lot of people are listing reasons why it's ok the game is killer sided, and citing them as reasons why they think the game isn't killer sided. That's great, a lot of them are great reasons, and I agree with them! The problem is, they're reasons why it's OK that the game is killer-sided, not evidence that it's not.
So, equal win rate for both sides is the game being killer sided? Got it.
Not surprises here, to be honest. Everybody knows that anything that isn't 100% an advantage for survivors is proof that BHVR is killer sided.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552583#Comment_3552583
"I keep hearing this" - If 1 is free to repair the gen, they are also free for the Killer to drop chase and take the free hit on them. Chasing 2 people lets you choose the person in the worse spot also. The person who runs to the Shack Window blocks that so the other person has to go out by Shack Pallet, as opposed to a solo Survivor always being free to take the better of the two.
"And again shielding in the extremes" - Yes, you are shielding a bad faith argument in the extreme case that all gens pop in 2m total, when that is closer to the 4k speedrun than the escape speedrun (which Survivors was ~3m). If you have 1 gen popping in 40s with 3 people, or 1 gen popping in 60s with 2 people, that still shows it would be better for them to split and complete 3 in 90s as opposed to 3 in ~165 with trioing gens, or 3 in ~100s with a duo and a solo, and that is assuming travel time between gens doesn't even exist (which would tip the balance even further away from your camp).
"Read my other post" (Which was posted AFTER my reply) - First off the solo gen with an add-onless Commodious/Event toolbox should shave 16s, or a 74s total gen time. So I'm not sure how you came to your numbers. Secondly Regression exists alongside progression, and the mirror equivalent is pallets. Killers cannot regress or 'heal' a gen, but a Survivor cannot repair or 'heal' a broken pallet. Just as Any Means Necessary allows you to lift the unbroken pallet back up, Regression perks help slow down the progression of gens. However if the Survivor pops the gen or the Killer breaks the pallet, it is permanently gone. Finally a Toolbox is a multiplier to increase gen speed (by 50%), and co-op is a multiplier to reduce gen speed (by 15% per person). I can't fathom the argument that people doing the slower option is too fast. The duo Commodious gen followed up by a duo gen takes ~90s (total), compared to the 2 solo commodious gens getting done in 74s (total). The gen times are already longer to group up than solo, so that clearly isn't the problem. The only time this is a problem is if Killers are camping gens, and never leveraging pressure. That would be a failing on the Killer's part to learn how to play the game, and that could only be from someone who had the broken CoB+OC+Eruption as their only method of winning, not any skill whatsoever.
"You all keep saying this, .../'realistic averages' " - (the three paragraphs below)
Partially true, yes. There are roughly 3 phases of the game, early/mid/end. Early game is basically before the first hook(or kill in the edge cases of Onryo/Tombstone Myers), mid game which typically roughly functions along the 1/1/1/1 paradigm, and endgame where gens are done. Even in the absurd case of an AFK Killer and the Survivors teleporting to gens and gates, that still takes the first 4 gens solo'd at 90s, the 5th gen quad pumped in ~41s, the gates opened in 20s, totalling a ~151s or 2m 30s permanent early game. Meanwhile if the Killer is actually playing the game, the 1/1/1/1 concept is in play more than 2m30s, even when the Killer is ineffective.
In addition, 1(Hook/be healed/be slugged)/1(Chase)/1(Unhook/healing)/1(pump gens) isn't the perfect scenario, it is merely the normal scenario. An even better scenario is 2/1/1/0 or 2/0/2/0, or 3/1/0/0, or 3/0/1/0, or you've won at 4/0/0/0. Killers call 1/1/1/1 the normal scenario because they utilize their M1 skill, their power, their meta knowledge of the map or Survivor playstyles in order to shorten chase+hook times to be faster than the unhook+heal times. Then you run into a better Survivor taking longer, then a worse one taking shorter, but you ultimately hover around that normal case 1/1/1/1. If that isn't the normal case in anyone's matches, I suggest checking out some more guides or practicing power at odd spots. You don't know if you can land the Huntress hatchet until you try, so always attempt new shots. In the short run you likely will lose a couple of matches being forced to reload early because you wanted to test a high wall, but then in other matches you will get downs all the faster, because you won't attempt it at that same spot that didn't work, and use it in the new spot you learned that does work. Learn to lose (take risky power usages), lose to learn (find good and bad spots), lose (now) to win (more later). Even things like Ghostface cloaked redstain or crouch mindgames at loops are things to try, not only ranged characters risky shots.
Also, holding W and predropping essentially means 20s per hit, as the Killer can walk around a predropped pallet. Nothing stops the Killer from Bruteforcing Bloodlust back, which kicks in at 15s. So that means even if they try to actually play a pallet, they are still going down. Also even if their perks allow them to hide easier, or delay chase, that just means Killer Perks that do the same will shave this time down. STBFL cutting down the post-hit CD shortening the 20s to ~15s, or BBQ/Floods/Nowhere to Hide to reveal non Distortion users, and Ultimate Weapon to reveal non Calm Spirit users. Then on top of that you can run gen slowdown to buy extra time to burn through the pallets in a final war of attrition, and win by not even mindgaming or utilizing power.
-- Separate from the individual section replies above--
All of this assumes the Killer brings skill and an actual loadout, just alongside the Survivors bringing skill and an actual loadout. Not the sweatiest loadout possible, but normal/average scenarios. If the Survivors brought far more skill and/or tools to the table (like a giga toolbox on all of them), then the Killer is mostly going to lose. Similarly if the Killer brings far more skill and/or tools (like C33+Alch Ring Blight), they too will mostly win and the Survivors will mostly lose. If the Killer suffered from Eruption Inflation or facecamping Bubba and that artificially raised their MMR with kills from tools and not skill, then they are going to need to lose, in order to lower their MMR back down to Survivors of their actual skill range, since they can no longer abuse the tools that gave artificial wins. This can be true in the opposite case as well, with juicy toolboxes or old CoH or MfT artificially inflating Survivor MMR, and losing the matches without them.
"Shielding a bad faith argument with an extreme"... I stopped reading there.
Read this post and just like I said, if you still doesn't understand it's on you.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552625#Comment_3552625
No, what you are failing to understand, again, is that you are using specific "realistic average" scenarios to argue against mathematical facts affecting every single scenario you could come up with. I'm talking theoretical proved possibilities, you are talking real strategies used.
To expand: It is a fact that survivors can do gens in less than 2:40 minutes with at least 3 survivors escaping while the killer is doing it's job without making any mistakes. I think we all can agree that this is asinine. So, why can this happen? How even random survivors that are not hardcore speedrunners are able to make a match that should last at least 6 - 7 minutes only last from 3 to 5 minutes. What is the root of this problem.
It is spawn points? Well, obviously 3 survivors spawning in the other corner of the map beside a gen can affect this, but not to that point. It is items? Perks? Again, they help making gen faster, but unless you equip every single progression bonus there is they should not make as much of a difference taking in count the percentages they bring.
So, where is the problem? Well, just by having two survivors on one gen without any other bonus to progression shaves off almost 37 seconds of the gen, so two survivors spawning besides a gen would have it done in 53 seconds. If they are undisturbed and go to other gen after, they would be able to make two gens in just 16 seconds more than one survivor doing just one gen. And being that high, every bonus percentage to progression is even higher, making those times even shorter. So here is the root that is causing all that problems: Base progression for multiple survivors on one gen are too high.
"But doing all gens in 2:40 minutes it's an extreme and needs specific builds, and coordination, and..." But the problem is having the gen times floor so low! Even if your regular day Dwight and his room temperature IQ friends won't be able to pull off a 3 minutes match, they maybe are able to pull a 4:30 minute match by chance, because there is nothing that prevents them to do so. And a 4:30 minute match (and I had a lot of those) is a total average of 54 seconds per gen, by the way. And that assuming they spent those 4:30 minutes only doing gens, so...
"But survivors grouping up in a gen is bad for survivors and..." NOBODY CARES! NUMBERS DON'T CARE! BASE GAME MECHANICS DON'T CARE! How people play the game and what strategy is the best doesn't change the root of all the problems that had being affecting the game about gen times for years now.
So this is the whole thing explained as best as I could. And if after all this you can't understand where are you failing still, I can't do anything more for you.
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@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552369#Comment_3552369
Killer players my favorite marginal minority. Poor them, booting up the game to just suffer and feel constantly slapped in the face, spit on... Horrible horrible!
More like Tbagged every single game, called baby if you lose and boring noob if you win, but yeah, that would be an accurate description of the day by day experience of a killer in this game. Horrible, indeed.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552588#Comment_3552588
You're complaining about gen times and somehow think that BNP was buffed in the recent rework? You realize that it used to actually speed up gen times, right? I can't even believe you have a basic understanding of game mechanics at this point.
Someone else did a much more thorough debunking of your crap, and I'll leave it to them. But just the fact that you're so off base with why grouping up is bad for survivors and good for the killer is enough to make me think you have zero clue what you're talking about.
As with many of the killers on this forum, the issue is not having any clue how to pressure *survivors*, and likely not having a build that works with that. Shockingly, if you stack something like pop, pain res, jolt, and eruption, but only get 2 hooks before gens are done, you're effectively playing perkless, blind, and not helping yourself in chase. But it's much easier to cry for nerfs than examine your own gameplay.
First, explain to me how something that grants an instant unregressable 10 seconds shave off on any gen, almost the same as a full 32 charges toolbox in 21 seconds, is not a buff compared to what the BNP did before.
Second, I already said to who is "debunking" my crap why arguing that grouping up is bad for survivors have anything to do with what I'm saying. Starting with "grouping / not grouping is good / bad" was never the point of the argument. But if you want to try to make a real point to what I said for a change, be my guest.
To finish, of course you had to end with the "If a killer has a legit problem with the game, is because skill issue no matter how many reasons he has" argument. Never gets old!
But again, if you want to point out in what moment anyone has talked about wrong builds, skill of the killer or how anything of that has to do with the undeniable fact that base progression with multiple survivors being much higher than it should is a mechanic problem and is what causes min gens times to be that low, you are free to do.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552599#Comment_3552599
I answered your post very specifically, my friend. Your point is that survivors grouping up on generators gives them too much extra speed. My counter argument to that is that they only get one generator done, which is less efficient than spending slightly longer on multiple generators, and that it leaves them open to being interrupted + having far more of their overall progression regressed.
It's not just that splitting up is the smart move, it's that splitting up is how generator speeds can fly without the killer being able to do anything about it. If they're grouping up, the combination of inefficiency and increased pressure from interruptions + regression makes that favourable for you, not too fast for you to do anything about.
If those points don't counter yours, I will readily admit that I have no idea what you were trying to convey.
Well, again, I don't know how the most efficient strategies to use has anything to do with base progression times being too high. In other words, you are trying to (again) use specific situations where it is not a "big problem" to argue against a base problem affecting every match.
And that was not what you argued in first place, what you said is the problem was spawn points and toolboxes, not base progression of two or more survivors and I already proved that you are wrong. The only thing you are doing now is, again, trying to derailing the argument in another direction so you could now make the point of "but the smart and fast thing to do is...!". Something that as I said, I never was so sure it was the smart thing to do, anyways.
Mathematically, it makes sense. 3 survivors in one gen each = 3 c/s, so more charges getting fed to gens. But it also gives the killer 90 seconds to find someone, chase him, down him, hook him, have the chance of use a regression perk like PR and make one of you have to leave the gen to do the save, while the killer find another one and chase him, and then he get the wonderful and perfect 1/1/1/1 situation so mentioned here.
With at least two survivors in one gen, it would mean less charges (2 survivors in one gen = 1.7 c/s, another in other gen 1 c/s, 2.7 c/s total) but yet again, you would only give him 53 seconds to do all that before you get a gen done and secured, without any probability of it getting regressed, another gen with only 37 charges to go and two of you free to go do a save/heal and the other to keep doing gens or distract the killer while the 3º one finish his solo gen. Yes, if the killer comes and disturb you it would be 1.7 c/s less while it happens, but the moment the killer decide to chase one of you the other can simply continue repairing the gen with minimum loss on gen repairing.
But yet again, this is a whole other topic based on subjective things. Getting back on point: The big and real problem of gens flying is that with only two survivors and base progression they would shave off 37 seconds from the gen. With PT, almost 40. And from there, every single perk or item that add a bonus to progression would lower that number. That's why they should make so the times saved goes from 20 with two survivors to the 50 that 4 survivors in one gen can save, because it would make the minimum times a gen can be done higher and effectively reduces the bonus that toolboxes and perks grants (and if some ends up being too much weaker, a buff would be needed to those things to make them useful).
And that is an irrefutable fact. It is the big disease that is causing the problem and trying to treat the symptoms of it because survivors like what that disease causes like BHVR is currently doing would not resolve anything. If you don't have any more "counter" to this, again, have a nice day.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552572#Comment_3552572
I'm... not sure I'm following.
There's a lot that seems to be wrong here. First of all, your numbers seem to only be looking at the Commodious Toolbox without any addons or perks supporting it, which... I'm not going to argue that the Commodious Toolbox isn't as damaging to the killer if it's used on its own. I agree with that, it's when they're built into with strong addons and supporting perks that they become overpowered.
The more important thing here though is that you keep talking about survivors grouping up? Survivors grouping up do generators faster in terms of raw numbers as applied to that one generator, yes, but they do generators overall slower because they aren't split up. If we're talking about generator speeds, if we're talking about the killer not being able to do anything about how fast generators fly in their matches, we will never be looking at survivors that group up. We'll be looking at survivors who spread out over multiple generators at once, and only double up when it comes to the last generator, because that is overall faster and harder for the killer to pressure. It's objectively the stronger tactic and the one that actually makes generator speeds difficult if it happens at the very start of the match.
You want survivors grouped up. That's much less generator progression overall and it's an opportunity to pressure more than one survivor at once when you go to interrupt it. If you've got some tool that'll take off a bunch of progression at once, like Pop or Pain Res, you do immense damage to their overall objective progression if they were grouped up on the generator you just applied it to.
If you nerf the efficiency of survivors grouping up on generators (even more than it already is inefficient), things will get worse for you as killer, not better, because it would incentivise survivors to do the stronger tactic and split up.
Let's look at two scenarios:
- In scenario one, all four survivors have stacked toolboxes and spawn spread out, each starting to repair a separate generator as soon as they load in for a total of four generators actively being repaired.
- In scenario two, the survivors spawn in groups of two, and each group up on the closest generator they spawn to for a total of two generators being repaired.
In scenario two, you might see one generator pop while you're still in chase, but that's it. They'll have that one generator done, and because you pressured them away from the other generator, they basically have no other objective progress. Compare that to scenario one, where you only pressure a survivor away from one generator and leave three still being actively repaired. That is much more objective progress even if you manage to get the down before those other three generators are completed, because you're at minimum going to see two generators pop with serious progress on a third even if you get a reasonably fast down and reach a generator in time after the hook.
If they're grouped up, your skill matters and my actual point applies. If they're spread out but they don't have anything for gen speed, it's harder but my point still applies. It's when they're spread out and have strong gen speed tools that things start getting out of hand.
TL;DR, I guess, the speed of one generator isn't the only thing that matters. How much progress there is on other generators when that first one pops is easily just as important, if not moreso.
So, the answer is no, you won't admit you were wrong and you are going to keep with the mental gymnastic on top of grasping straws (I didn't take in count addons as I didn't take in count any perk, because we are comparing bases here) and ignoring points and facts (as toolboxes and perks, addons or not, are percentage based so making the base progression lower would also make those less effective) and trying to derail the argument to other not relevant points (like technically splitting up being the smart move instead of grouping up. Even if it was the case, something I was never so sure about, it is not relevant.).
That is all I had to say about your whole post. So much irrelevant stuff that it is not worth to even try to answer, and the few legit points that are relevant I already answered in previous post, so read them if you are interested, and have a nice day.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552572#Comment_3552572
the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default
This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read.
They already nerfed prove thyself and BNP because that was 'the most egregious thing ever' before the nerfs.
Survivors grouping up to work on gens is the best thing a killer can want. It means you can interrupt and pressure *multiple survivors* at once, and it's still the *least efficient* way for survivors to do gens. It's always, *always* more efficient for survivors to split up, including some cases where there's only one gen remaining. And that was true even with the old, pre nerf prove thyself. It's even more true now.
The only reason killers are bitching (this time) is 100% due to not playing well. Especially in the current build of the game, if you don't know where survivors are and aren't running at least one information perk, then you're just blindly wandering the map while survivors do gens for free.
If you aren't pressuring the right places on the map, or don't even know where they are, that's completely on you.
This is 100% a case of 'I've tried nothing and I'm out of ideas'
- Reads a post with a lot of points and maths of how and why it is the problem.
- Ignore everything and stick with just one phrase.
- His answer: "This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read."
Again, nerfing PT and... BNP? You mean buffed? Whatever, was treating the sympthoms and not the real problem.
And they don't solve the real problem because there is people like you that would cry hard about survivors getting nerfed at the same time they say that it is more efficient for survivors to split up and that is what they should do, so they shouldn't have any problem in making grouping up in a gen less powerful in the first place.
Also, just for fun:
- Genrushing has being a problem for years.
- BHVR destroyed regression perks and backtracked the nerf to altruistic healing.
- BHVR only slightly touched PT while making Deja Vu not having a cooldown, "nerbuffing" BNP and adding broken haste and endurance perks that makes chases longer than they should.
- Genrushing is a bigger problem as before and any killer without chasing power is not viable.
- Him: "The only reason killers are bitching (this time) is 100% due to not playing well."
I love the logic some people has. I would pay to see their thought process to come to those conclusions.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552329#Comment_3552329
The problem with that is it already is more efficient to split up on gens. Making co-op gens more inefficient will only make the problem worse in the long run. I'd argue the opposite, to have co-op be more efficient than soloing gens. If the Killer interrupts a coop gen, they disrupt 2+ Survivors, so a max of 2 gens can be pumped, but if a Killer disrupts a solo gen, they only stop 1, and leave 3 gens to be pumped.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552395#Comment_3552395
Yeah, maybe a perk that blocks the most progressed gen for 30s when a gen pops, or another perk to block the 3 furthest gens for the first 2 minutes.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552370#Comment_3552370
Yep develop different skillsets and raise your account MMR, that way when you swap to a normal Killer you can't stand a chance /s. That's why you don't want to get addicted to overpowered Killers. You need to lose to learn, and if you refuse to even stomach the possibility of losing, it will bite back causing you to lose more in the long run.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552427#Comment_3552427
Gen regression is an important crutch for players learning Killer. The problem is when people refuse to take off the weights and can win through bruteforce attrition. Making gen regression for Killer similar to Exhaustion for Survivor might be better than removing it altogether, but if they did that then I'd agree with removing/reworking Survivor gen speed perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552454#Comment_3552454
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552458#Comment_3552458
The problem with these arguments lies in the extremes required. Hypothetically you can have giga genrushers like seen in Hens' video with 3m22s average escape time, but if you take the opposite extreme, you can get speedruns of Killer 4king under 2 minutes with Billy/Bubba/Legion/Ghostface/Blight/Pinhead, and under 3 minutes with the vast majority of the others. The extremes mean nothing. The median and mean both matter much more.
The average (assuming the Killer knows how to play the game) has 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/healing, and only 1 to pump gens. Even if that 1 person teleports to the next gen after every pop, that still takes 7.5 minutes minimum with no regression.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552496#Comment_3552496
The only way to hear 2/3 gens pop when crossmapping is to be AFK for a minute from the start. Just play the game and that won't happen.
-- Separate from the replies above --
Honestly I wouldn't mind a basekit scream from all Survivors with a Loud Noise at their spawn position. You could run Calm Spirit to negate it, and would make it more expected to be found early, so being AFK is all the more of a punishment. The Killer has initial intel, but nothing lingering, making Lethal Pursuer and Corrupt Intervention still have value. (I can't tell you how many locker grabs Lethal has given me from the start.)
This seems to be the primary complaint, is the lack of knowing where to start, and fumbling for the first minute. Experienced players aren't given too much more than what they already mostly knew/assumed. That way this primarily helps the whining Eruption MMR inflation Killers who mistakenly believed they were good at the game, and now are getting stomped against Survivors of their MMR, but outclassed in skill.
If the Killer interrupts a coop gen, they disrupt 2+ Survivors
I keep hearing this, but people that say it seems to forget that a killer can only chase one of you, letting the other one free to keep repairing the gen. And if he decides to stay on the gen to defend it for a while, all of you have free time to progress other gens.
Seriously, I don't know who said that is is more effective having one person in three gens than at least 2 people in one gen, but obviously didn't do the math.
The problem with these arguments lies in the extremes required.
And again shielding in the extremes. There is no extreme required to do a gen in 40 to 60 seconds less as you only need two survivors and some perks and items. The point is not that some hardcore speedrunners can do all gens in 2:40 minutes, but the simple fact that survivors have the capacity to do the gens as fast as that. I think it is not hard to understand.
The extremes mean nothing.
Alright, read my other post with the math to see what happens in an average game with progression, then:
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552474#Comment_3552474
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
And when you see the math, then tell me how the problem here is not the base progression of two survivors, something happening and present in all games, and it is only a problem in the extremes.
The average (assuming the Killer knows how to play the game) has 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/healing, and only 1 to pump gens. Even if that 1 person teleports to the next gen after every pop, that still takes 7.5 minutes minimum with no regression.
You all keep saying this, and talking about "realistic averages", but all of you seems to forget that usually, a survivor just don't stand still so you can hook him so you are at all moments in the 1/1/1/1 situation, specially at the start of the game. There are survivors that are good at not get caught in chases, there are perks that prevents you to find your next survivor if they are hiding well, there are perks that allow survivors to not even have to be good at not getting caught or hiding and just press W and predrop pallets so you have to waste time brute forcing the hit or just brake it and give him the chance to get to the next loop. There is a ton of things that could make you not be in the wonder situation of 1/1/1/1 for most of the game. And every second you spent out of that moment, is less time to be able to get it.
In other words, for people that talks about realistic averages and use them to argue, you all seems to make points assuming a killer would be able to always get and maintain that perfect situation at all times when is something that needs so many factors out of your control to favor you that when you get it is almost by chance.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552470#Comment_3552470
Again, without any toolbox, without any perk, without doing great skillchecks, just two survivors doing a gen, they would do it in 52.94 seconds approx. This is the true problem.This is not a problem. Perks might be a problem, toolboxes might be a problem, but this isn't.
At the start of the match, survivors doing the same gen, unless they are breaking up the 3 gen, is usually a weakness. If those two survivors did two gens together, it would take ~106 seconds, it would take 90 seconds if they'd just gotten on different gens. And by being on the same gen the killer can disrupt both survivors at the same time.
Your conception of the issue is off. This is like when CoH was nerfed because killers didn't like that survivors could heal on their own, but they didn't take account of the fact that some survivors would run all the way across a map to heal themselves when they should have stayed on gens. If they penalized multiple survivors working on gens even more, survivors would just spread out which would actually make it even harder for killers.
If a survivor decide to take you to a tour around every single pallet on the mapPallets are a limited resource. If at the start of the game the first survivor runs the whole map and burns a ton of pallets and 3 gens pop, its not a great start, but the killer is by no means out of the game at this point. The survivor chases should now be much shorter and you have even fewer gens to worry about.
On the other hand, if we're talking balance, if the killer gets a strong start and downs a survivor before a single gen is even done, he's at such a massive advantage that it should be a surprise if he loses.
As others have said, the first few gens that pop aren't really relevant given it becomes increasingly harder for survivors to finish a gen.
Read my other post and you would see how and why it is not only a problem, it is the problem:
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552474#Comment_3552474
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
Also, there is enough pallets on any map for one survivor with WoO to "loop" (I can't emphasize the quotes enough) any killer without a chase or anti loop power for 5 gens before he would get out of pallets.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552470#Comment_3552470
Then what are you arguing in relation to my post? I already acknowledged that the potential minimum times need reigning in, but I'm not arguing about potential minimums, I'm arguing realistic averages. In the average match, you are not facing survivors who have those tools or even the inclination/coordination to use them. It's not relevant to my point.
I did say "to a degree", because obviously you can't completely control gen speeds. It's a multiplayer game, your opponents have some control and can exercise their skill just as much as you can exercise yours. What I mean by control is that things which are under your control have a massive influence on survivor efficiency, because you as the killer have the ability to pressure multiple survivors at once.
To your argument about survivors taking you on a tour around every pallet on the map, that is hilariously map based. Sure, if they're playing Garden of Joy, Badham, or the Game (depending on your killer on that last one), that'll work, but other maps are actually meaningfully limited in their resources. That specific chase might be extended, but future chases will have a fraction of the resources to work with.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, to be clear, I am saying that the problem both isn't present in the average match and does not revolve around the base speed of generators when it is present. It's spawns, and toolboxes, typically a combination of both.
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552454#Comment_3552454
I moved past the exception because it is just that, an exception. When survivors bring those tools and spawn on four separate generators at the start, yes, gens do fly and you don't have much control over it. I would support actions taken to address both parts of that situation; survivor spawns, and gen speed tools, mostly just toolboxes.
However, as I said, that is not every match. Even matches where more than one survivor just has a generally good toolbox but aren't coordinated enough to be on separate gens from the start aren't anywhere near that damaging for you as a killer, even if the toolboxes are still too strong. Implying or stating that is the case in the average match would be wrong and deceptive.
Gen speeds are in your control (to a degree) as killer because you have the ability to spread your pressure. I've made this point on the forums before, but I'll raise it again: The more survivors you have occupied, the fewer can be on generators. One hooked, one in chase, one going for the save cuts the generator efficiency down by 75% if everyone's alive. That's a massive reduction in generator speeds for as long as you maintain that situation, which if you're both good in chase and good at macro strategy, is pretty frequently. That's where skill comes in.
Gen times don't need to be touched. They especially should not make grouping up on a generator even worse, because that would incentivise spreading out, which is so much harder to deal with as killer. If two survivors are on a generator, congrats, you've occupied two survivors when you go there, not just one. What needs to be touched is a combination of spawns (to stop outlier situations where all four survivors are spread out) and toolboxes (because they're really the glue that holds actual genrushing builds together, everything else is dramatically less useful without a toolbox).
It's important to mention the skill component because otherwise people might end up not realising where they're going wrong, and blame the game for it. In a majority of your matches, unless you're unlucky enough to be running into Team Eternal frequently, your skill affects gen speeds. In a majority of matches, you will be the deciding factor in how efficient the survivors can be, because a majority of matches aren't against ultra-coordinated 4-man groups.
A lot of words that even if they are not untrue still ignores the main problem: The min times of gens are absurd, and need to be addressed. Again, it is not the exception of a full SWF squad trying to beat the world record what is the problem, the problem is survivors having the capacity of doing gens in less than 30 seconds even if they don't shave off all that much time in all games. Again, without any toolbox, without any perk, without doing great skillchecks, just two survivors doing a gen, they would do it in 52.94 seconds approx. This is the true problem.
And about gen speed in your control: I don't think you know what "control" means. All of the things you said there depends greatly in how survivors play and what they allow you to do. And if you don't use a killer with strong chase or anti-loop power, even less. If a survivor decide to take you to a tour around every single pallet on the map, no matter what you do, how many times you try to mindgame or how good you are in general, he will make you lose your time and you would be forced to break chase, leaving him free to keep doing gens while their teammates keep doing them in the time you find your next chase. In what point here is the killer in control of gen times?
Again, I'm not saying skill is not a factor, but that doesn't means that there isn't an intrinsic problem with gens times that should be fixed.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552442#Comment_3552442
You're well aware I highlighted outlier scenarios like that, so what's the point of this response?
That you are ignoring the fact even when pointing it out. The problem is not that a well coordinated group with builds and toolboxes can do the gens fast, the problem is that they can do them that fast in the first place.
So, while you are partly right (I would love for you to explain how the killer has any control on gen speed), the skill of the killer is not the only factor on gens flying faster than it should, and arguing "skill issue" as being the only problem like you are doing is wrong and deceptive.
Gen times should be touched. If adding max charges or reducing base progression is a no-no as survivor would cry that they hate to do gens and would need to stay in one place more time, they at least should make the penalty for having multiple survivors in one gen higher, so 2 survivors can't shave off 40 seconds of a gen just by repairing it together.
When this is done, then we can talk about the skill issues of killers that are not able to stop gen progression effectively.
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@Dogma_loki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552251#Comment_3552251
What kind of math did you take in school that 60% is balanced?
The amount of blatant gaslighting and mental gymnastics on these forums is mind numbing.
What kind of math did you? A killer need at least a 3K to win according to MMR. So, 60% kill rate = 40% win rate for killers. And as a survivor need to escape for it to be counted as a win, 60% kill rate = 40% win rate for survivors.
In other words, having a 60% kill rate is the most mathematically balanced the game could ever be. That's why BHVR want the kill rate to be that. Explain to me how pointing this fact is gaslighting or doing mental gymnastics.
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@jesterkind said:
Barring for very specific exceptions (like a team with all good toolboxes who spawn on separate gens from the start), if your gens are flying super fast, it's probably your fault. That's not an insult or a condemnation, it should be a relief- if it's your fault, you can fix it.
Considering how much control the killer has these days over the speed of their gens, I do genuinely think there are probably things you should be looking at yourself. If the survivors don't all have top tier genrushing tools, you've got a ton of room to exercise your skill and slow down the generators yourself.
Your build is a good place to start. Slowdown perks are useful, but more important than just having them is them working as part of a coherent build. You can get away with just one slowdown perk if it works cohesively with your other three perks and your playstyle, after all. Then you can look at your macro play, and how well you're spreading your pressure, to see if you're maybe getting tunnel-vision on chases that take too long or on one specific survivor at the cost of giving the team uncontested generator time.
The cumulative changes that have happened to generator time, to slowdown and speedup tools, to chases, and to maps really do add up. The state of the game is really pretty good when it comes to your skill giving you good returns regarding generator time.
Of course. The fact that survivors can do 5 gens in 2:40 minutes total doesn't have anything to do with generators flying. If a killer have any type of gameplay problem, is purely because skill issues. Everybody knows that.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
Let's be honest, really good nurses can easily get you with just 1 blink, while you're in chase. Them having a 2nd blink as a backup feels too much to me. It's EZ mode with hack, in a way.
I hate facing a really good nurse, there is almost nothing I can do against her. Sometimes I can avoid the 1st blink by juking her, which feels really good, and then I inevitably get hit by her 2nd blink, which allows her to correct any mistakes. 2nd blinks are a fullproof way of a nurse securing a loss of health state for a survivor. Since she is a killer that completely ignores walls, pallets and windows, this is really unfair.
I love facing nurses on my level, because I can do something against them. I can actually juke, and have chases that last for longer than 5 seconds (the same applies to my teammates). Even if I end up dying, I still feel quite good, because I was able to dodge hits by juking her. On the contrary, being unable to do anything against a god nurse feels awful, and is just a proof of a bad killer design.
Of course, even those nurses that are on my level can get better, but then they're on a god level and are unfair and unfun to go against.
I honestly feel that limiting Nurse to a 1 blink max (no addons being able to increase this) would be a huge balancing help against this killer. Great nurses playing with 2 blinks is like a child's playground for them. Having only 1 blink would actually add some challenge to them, as well as offer counterplay for us against them.
I feel like if there would be any compensation for the removal of 1 blink, that could be an extended lunge range after a blink, as basekit.
If a Nurse is able to get you with just 1 blink, the problem is on you. Learn how to loop her instead of complaining about how OP she is.
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They should make at least the minimum time a gen can be done higher, indeed. Starting with the base progression two or more survivors can do in a gen.
It's not logical that with just 2 survivors they can shave off 38 seconds from a gen. With 3, 48 seconds. With 4, 50 seconds. And this without counting great skill checks, perks, toolboxes, brand new parts, etc.
It should be changed so with 2 survivors doing a gen they could only take away 20 seconds approx from the gen, and then maybe escalate it so it still maintain the 50 seconds with 4 to compensate only "pressuring" one gen.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552111#Comment_3552111
53% kill rate is slightly killer sided. It's less killer sided than the devs (and I, as a survivor player) want the game to be, as I already pointed out in my post, but killers having a greater than 50% chance to sacrifice any one given survivor is indeed killer favored
A 53% kill rate is mathematically not killer sided in MMR terms, but the contrary. The devs want 60% kill rate because that would mean 40% win rate for killers (as they need a 3K to win) and a 40% win rate for survivors (as they only need to escape to win).
So, having a greater than 50% chance to sacrifice anyone is still survivor sided, as they are winning more games than killers.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551895#Comment_3551895
That video is literally cheating and proves nothing. How does getting packet in wrong timing allow you to sprint for a long time - considering you can turn left and right? That one is pure and simple cheating only. Like there is lag switching where both killer and survivor can abuse interpolation logic with correction "to teleport", but this one wasn't that case (even though he had high ping). Interpolated position would not allow you to change directions
If you have 6kB upload and the data you "have to" transfer is anything above 6kB, that means some data are lost. That means data will NOT arrive late. It means (some) data will NOT ARRIVE.
Also stop gaslighting. If you ever tried it for a test to play as laggy killer and laggy survivor you would VERY CLEARLY see the difference. Because points A, B, and C, still stand.
"How does getting packet in wrong timing allow you to sprint for a long time" Simple: The Cheryl in the video is getting extreme high latency by lag switching to exploit the lag compensation and make the server don't realize the Sprint Burst or the bonus speed on hit should have ended long ago (that's why it only works when he hit her or uses Sprint Burst). But whatever it is the case or not, it is still lag / high latency's fault (check 2:48. She literally get placed in the wrong place and "phased" through a wall because she is lagging like hell) and what it is shown in the video could happen even if not intentionally and for a short time with a latency spike, just as the rollback can place you somewhere you don't even were before as happens in my video. Also, I don't think you really know how a lag switch works, as that Cheryl is without any doubt lag switching.
And for more proof of this being "weaponized high latency", even if we get back to Counter Strike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QyNA6H6rYAnd I know that you had become a networking guru in a couples of days, but before you hang the title on the wall you should have a look at what a buffer in programming is. More specific in this case, a packet buffer:
This definition explains the meaning of Packet Buffer and why it matters.The packets don't get lost just because your bandwidth isn't enough (most of the time), they get buffered to be sent as soon as they can. That's why, again, even if it is seconds later the info was getting to the server of the game and that Jake got hurt. This and yet again, when there is packet loss in the game it shows an icon, and as you can check, there is only two instances where that icon shows.
In short, the only one that is trying to gaslight people in believe that the intrinsic nature of latency in DbD is killer sided is you. I never said that what you described didn't ever happen, but that your claim that having lag never benefits survivor or punish killers is ridiculous (because it is).
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If we take into account the precedents, from 2 to 6 years...
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Well, it's official: It seems that people are using a new speedhack that is linked to the latency somehow.
https://youtu.be/t_K5dFUQ3eQ?si=z8YuxGFEYClJj_3z&t=155That would explain why it seemed like it could be lag when just used for a moment (making you "jump" forward like you had high latency for a second) and why that Cheryl got stuck with the wall in 2:48.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550427#Comment_3550427
Bandwidth + reliability is not latency. We were talking about latency (laggy killer). What you showed is the thing that happens when your information basically can't reach server at all. That's totally different problem that you can't get, provided you have internet from 21st century or you are not using artificial speed limiter.
I don't know if I talked about it in this thread or another, but unreliable low bandwidth internet is indeed problem also for killer - but high latency is just pure benefit for every killer.
But you can get lags even with best internet in the world if DBD decides to connect you to far-away server (which is true for everyone from Africa and middle east for example) or if you decide to use proxy.
Dude, two Doritos ago you didn't even know what lag compensation was and that the game worked in a dedicated server infrastructure now. And now you are an expert in gaming networking?
My information was getting to the server, but late. That's why I could hit and even grab Jake from the gen. I simulated high latency by bottle necking the packets, so the game send them later than it would normally do. The upload was more affected than the download, so that's why I could see everybody playing fine but the others don't even saw me where I was.
There are only two instances where there was packet loss (marked by the two diamonds icon besides the high latency one), but the rest of the match I was literally lagging, ergo, high latency.
EDIT: Well, it seems that having an high ping is so not any advantage for survivors in any situation that now people are lag switching to literally speed hack somehow.
https://youtu.be/t_K5dFUQ3eQ?si=z8YuxGFEYClJj_3z&t=155But keep trying to defend your asinine claim that latency is "killer sided".
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@radiantHero23 said:
It's not a strong perk. Blindness is a weak status effect. Info is not strong as well. It's only really good on the very strong killers.
You have to understand. What are going to do all those looping god pros without WoO hand holding them in chases so they can go from pallet to pallet? Blindness is the worst thing that they could happen to them, other than having that perk "only useful to new players" nerfed.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550896#Comment_3550896
There could be different difficulty levels. Survivor Rule book would be an easier one and offer less Fog Style (FS) points in contrast to a “No Mercy” difficulty level where you will be given a significant amount FS points for a successful performance.
Special events could be done like one called “7 minutes” where you have 7 mins to style on Wesker.
Fog Style merch and cosmetics will be a big hit.
I like it! But instead of "No Mercy" I will call it "Killers must die". Sounds edgier, it's ironic, what every survivor think (if you change die with "be nerfed") and it's a little reference to other game that also reward you with points for styling.
... Oh my Fog! And what about a mode where survivors are the ones that need to kill the killer in the most stylish way possible to gain the most FSP!!!???
I hope someone at BHVR are writing down all this.
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They can even program the whole Survivor's Rulebook in it, Asimov's Robotic Laws style. Survivors perfect killer... I love it!
They can even create an event where the AI went rogue and start going against the laws by tunneling and camping because it decided it was the logical and best strategy to follow, and you have to gain as much "Fog Style Points" as possible without it getting you out of the game in that unfair and disgusting way.
Infinite possibilities! I don't see any downside on this idea, honestly.
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@Wowie said:
that's really the only fun you can have as surv anymore since bhvr's new design philosophy involves removing player interaction for the sake of "balance".
they've got it in their heads that it's some sort of competitive game or something.
i'd rather have the broken mess back because at least it felt unique.
If they even thought for a moment it was a competitive game, they would not implement yet another mechanic to do the work for the survivors and left them deal with the Basement Bubba as they seem fit. They would had "balanced" those killers that can do camping so well that doesn't have almost any counter and that's about it.
It's precisely the oversimplification of things by designing them so they don't require the minimum level of skill, knowledge or game sense from survivors what is "removing player interaction". And you can see it in the design of the last few killers, where it is obvious they prioritized that they were easy to counter before anything else (because yes, Skull Merchant resulted to be a 3 genning monster, but we can not forget that all you needed to do to counter her power on release was dodge the slowest moving scanner on the story of fiction and push some directions). With special mention to The Singularity, the highest peak on this new designing philosophy including base mechanic changes to accommodate it, like survivors being able to hold a killer item at all times.
This is not because they want to make it more competitive but the contrary: What they are doing is adapt it to the crying crowds by making it easier without realizing that at the same time they are making it more dull. Just press W, go from pallet to pallet, and that's about it.
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@Pavel_Ch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544817#Comment_3544817
complete rework. her strength is a relic of the past, when no one really knew how to play. Now you won't run away from any nurse with game experience
Ironically, the ones that didn't learn how to play against her in all this years are survivors. Not surprising, taking in count the amount of them that DCd the moment they hear the first scream instead of gaining that game experience.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zf1AnLPNRQ@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549695#Comment_3549695
To your 3 points - all those things barely matter, because they happen MUCH less often then getting hit in chase (specifically behind the pallet/window/corner/whatever). Also it's been quite a lot of patches since I saw any hit being validated away from killer side.
To high ping would give less reaction to a survivor
That's absolutely the case. Suppose you are at basically ANY loop in a game and survivor is trying to play it instead of holding W. You watch from which side killer comes - if he has ping, he changed direction 400ms ago, but you still see him going the original way. Because there's no packet that could arrive to you. Said killer has no punishment for having such a ping and all the positives. He has survivor running directly at him without any possible chance for survivor to know that. Meaning he gets in basic case (4+4,15)*0.4=3,26m distance free benefit JUST BY HAVING BAD PING.
Well, I have to say, playing with high ping is without any doubt a huge advantage for the killer. Did you see how many hits I'm able to land while everybody is just playing without problems?
And that poor Jake, he didn't had any chance to react! It's so OP having lag in a game with a client-server architecture! Totally worth it. Who don't want to play like this?
And now talking seriously, it really surprised me that most of the match was playing fine. The game should have the hell out of good lag compensation. For reference, the lowest connection I had seen right now is 100 Mb (Megabit) per second... that is 12500 KB (KiloByte) per second, and I'm playing there at 6 KB/s. So, another proof that your internet speed has nothing to do with being lagged nowadays.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549434#Comment_3549434
So my points A, B, C, never actually happen? I think the lie is what YOU say
When I said that? But I have to say, saying that a killer with high ping would give less reaction to a survivor when in any case what would do is make the killer whiff attacks that should have hit is a little misleading.
Also, some examples of latency benefiting survivors:
- On generator grabs (and previously hook grabs). The killer see the survivor still doing the gen, go for the grab, the grab animation start to play but the server receive the info that the survivor let go the gen and the grab animation stop, leaving the killer just stand there or in the best case doing a quick attack.
- On pallets. Even when they get obviously hit they can still drop the pallet in the same instant. And that is if they get hit, as sometimes you see how they are eating your machete but doesn't even get hit at all.
- On getting hits. Like I said, there are times when you have obviously hit someone and either left unharmed or the game does a rollback because he used some perk. The perfect example of this are the times when you do a hit, hear a death scream, but you get DHd instead of the survivor going down.
Again, lag affects everybody, sometimes for better and sometimes for worst. It never is all benefit for someone, none for the others. And again-again, you know all this because we talked about it in extent in another post. So, who is lying here?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540453#Comment_3540453
CSGO is absolutely not the same thing. It's symmetrical. In this game killer having high ping has triple the benefit while survivor has NEVER any benefit.
a, he gives shorter reaction time to survivor until his info arrives to server (first extra benefit)
b, he sees survivor where there are no survivor any more (second extra benefit)
c, he hits something even if there was action that should not allow it.
For this reason, it's not "it would look extremely weird for killer", but it looks 3x extremely weird for survivor. Like the amount of BS is absolutely insane. That's why everyone is constantly complaining about it. You never see killers speaking about lags with exception to apologize for some BS that happens in game. DBD is the ONLY game I know of where you actually want to use proxy servers to worsen your ping. Every other game understands, that having bad ping should be neutral or at worst case a small negative. Not a winning strategy.
In this game killer having high ping has triple the benefit while survivor has NEVER any benefit
You know how and why this is a lie because I already explained it to you in another post. Lag affects for better or worst every single player in the game in many ways, including not getting hits that they should have get in the case of survivors.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548862#Comment_3548862
Exactly this. Survivors leave scratch marks, make noise when injured, leave blood trails and make location notifications when fast vaulting so everything plays in favor of the killer for being able to find them. It is the rare occasion that a survivor is able to drop chase with a killer that is focused on tunneling them off the hook. This is why I've argued that the game mechanics involving survivor and killer interactions need to change. Everything revolves around looping, which is very difficult. The game difficulty goes up way too high for tunneled survivors. Being chased in general heavily relies on pallets to last more than a few seconds in a chase. Dodging an attack feels impossible most of the time. I'm able to do it successfully about once every 30 or so times I try it. So many killer mains are used to everything survivors do against them that it hardly feels worth even trying anything other than running as long as you can.
If you loop a killer for a long time and the killer don't drop the chase, yes, he is going to get you eventually but it is his loss, as every second he spent chasing you is 1 charge being fed to up to 3 generators.
Also, survivors are supposed to be stronger at the start, and as the match advances and more resources are consumed being weaker to compensate the fact that you are 4 vs 1, and they leave marks and make loud noises because it would be almost impossible to find anyone otherwise thanks to the first person view the killer has (how many times survivors have being just beside a killer and he didn't see him?). You don't even understand why the game is designed that way, but here you are trying to argue about it to have a point to defend your claim.
And by the way, it was survivors the ones that made this game about looping. It was about stealth and hiding in the beginning, but people realized they can run faster than killers around walls thanks to having an smaller collision box and they transformed the game in a Benny Hill sketch. BHVR only adapted the game to how people was playing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDi83T4wEf8 -
@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392098/why-should-killers-play-nice-and-fair
Typical killer logic. Stop claiming that survivors can play unfair. They cant. Only killers are able to circumvent basic gameplay and make the game miserable for anyone they chose. If you get triggered by an emote after you already lost the game, its up to you.
"Survivors can't make the game miserable for the killer"
Proceeds to give an example of how survivors make the game miserable for the killer and blame them for survivor's toxicity.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548542#Comment_3548542
Here's the problem. You can build MMR in solo queue, but your MMR straight up does not matter in solo queue in terms of what teammates you get. You can be in the 1800-1900 range and you will still get absolute potato teammates. And I'm not going to get banned to prove it, but it doesn't matter.
This is why we need to know the MMR rating of everybody. Because I'm not the best survivor there is, but sometimes it really surprises me the low game sense most survivors I get matched have. Not even skill, just game sense, knowing what to do and how to do it even if you fail at it. And I would say it is because maybe I have low MMR so I'm are in the "noob potato" bracket, but I'm talking about people with 50, 60 and even 100 prestiges.
The other day I had a match where I was hooked near the shack, the Doctor chasing another survivor and a third one doing gens, and I had to see how a survivor run to the basement, take a lot of time to snap out of Madness... and then proceeded to open a create before coming to unhook me while I got the phase two of the hook. Like, really? Hundreds of hours played and you decided that it was the perfect time to open a create?
And this is just one example of the many I have lived while playing SoloQ. It's insane how low the average level of skill and game sense of survivors is.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548542#Comment_3548542
Hatch is null, just FYI. Doesn't affect MMR at all.
Em... I know? And technically, it's a "draw".
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The only problem flashlight has are the bs angles sometimes survivors can get away with. Other than that, they are fine.
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@Ayodam said:
I always wonder where those killer mains who complain ad nauseam about how ‘OP’ survivors are when threads like this pop up. They say jack all about this very common phenomenon you’re facing, OP. 🤷🏽♀️
Maybe they are not here because what is being talked in this post has nothing to do with the balance of the game, but the average skill of survivors.
In fact, one can argue that it's precisely what is being discussed here the main reason so many survivors thinks that "Killers are OP" or "They do X almost every game", as they doesn't seem to realize or acknowledge what him and their fellow survivors teammates are doing and focus on what the killer did.
Someone unhooked you 5 meters from the killer, you use your precious free BT to do a protection hit and the killer goes after you instead of the other survivor? The killer is doing bad here of course. He is tunneling. It's not that my teammate should have not unhooked me yet and I should have get the hell out of there instead of getting hit. It's all killer's fault.
Or if you want another example, those survivors that still haven't learn that predropping pallets and getting stuck in the animation of doing so against a killer that phases through walls is not the best way to deal with her. But nonetheless, the problem is that the killer is OP, not that I don't know how to loop her properly.
In other words: Game balance have nothing to do with you suffering the consequences of your mistakes and those of your teammates, even if some people thinks otherwise.
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548191#Comment_3548191
No because the devs decided on top of losing MMR on your own death, you also lose MMR for teammates dying (4 deaths is a huge MMR loss). And guess who gets all the 4 person escapes? SWF do. And no one wants to be in MMRs like what OP is having problems with.
That is only true when you are in a SWF squad. If you are SoloQ, it would only count your escape, hatch, or death for your MMR rating.
The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating, often abbreviated as "SBMM" or "MMR", is a hidden scoring system used to match Players together for ranked Trials in Dead by Daylight. The system has been in use since 8 September 2021 and replaced the previous matchmaking system, which had matched Players based on their Grades. The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating uses a hidden score that is influenced by the Player's performance in ranked Trials.There is no way for Players to know their specific score. The SkiSo, if you can't build MMR while SoloQueuing, it's on you.
@CatnipLove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548215#Comment_3548215
I really wish BHVR would judge us more individually. If I'm getting judged because I can't keep my three potatoes on life-support whilst running the killer and doing the gens, then I call BS. If I'm getting a bunch of BP and everyone else is dying, then I'm clearly not just sitting in a corner and waiting for everyone to die.
Wish granted. Just try to not let any potatoes in your squad when you are in SWF and you are good.
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The answer is simple: Play "Seriously and fair". This is my personal "Killer's Rulebook":
- Don't hard tunnel, but if a survivor just waste their free BT to try a protection hit, take it as he want to be hooked again.
- Don't do 3genning, but if survivors decide that it is not important to put some effort in not leaving 3 gens close by the end, get advantage of it.
- Don't camp, but if they do all the gens and not have any reason to leave the hook, defend it.
- If they complain in the chat about any of these actions and call you names, remember them that it was their fault for allowing you to do them.
- Never go to the exit gates to scare them off. If they want to waste almost two minutes of their time because they have the need to tbag the killer every single game they win, let them do it.
- The same with the ones that find hatch and start triggering sound cues because they want you to see how they go through the hatch. If they take a lot of time to end the game, just see Youtube or something meanwhile.
- Only give hatch for every survivor that stepped out of the exit gates so you can at least have a 1K in past games. In other words: Never give hatch.
- If they insult you and call you noob or baby killer when they win, remember them that there is nothing more sad that a salty, bad winner.
- If they call you boring, remember them that you are not their personal jester and only them are responsible of having their own fun, like you just did by killing them.
And I have to say, I started to have a lot more fun and less stress playing this way.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545867#Comment_3545867
I don't need to upload video of something that has been talked about and proven to be a hated playstyle in the game for years by many players. I know its a problem in this game. Everyone I played this game with quit and tunneling was the biggest reason why, among other things. The system isn't working enough. Its a small response to a very big problem. You can call protections a "hand holding mechanic" all you want, but tunneling in itself is basically a high reward and small risk thing too since the survivor is at a disadvantage. People who defend tunneling never look at it from that perspective. They never acknowledge how easy it is for them to do it. You simply argue from what you gain from doing it rather than the thought of it being bad for the game overall. Survivors need a way to fully escape a tunneling situation. Being able to run a few seconds with protections with nothing but windows and vaults offers little to nothing to escape the situation especially when you're leaving a big red trail of scratch marks that shows the killer exactly where you are going.
I talk from the perspective of all the times I have being accused of "tunneling" when I had found a survivor way after he was unhooked again, or because he spent his free protection in trying to save someone else. From the perspective of survivors leaving me the last closest 3 gens the map can generate and then complain that I was 3 genning when I wasn't the one that decided to leave that gens for last. The perspective of people saying I'm a camper because at the EGC, when I don't have any reason to leave the hook, I stay beside it to get a last kill.
And specially, from the perspective that in all the time I had play survivor I had not suffer any of those things to the extend of it being "bad for the game overall" or even my experience. I had games like that of course, including slugging me for no more reason than trying to get me mad, but not as often as many survivor mains cry in this forum it happens.
With this said, again, you are simply wrong. It is not easy to tunnel right now, unless the survivor make it easy for the killer to tunnel him on unhook, either by trying to use the Endurance to do a protection hit or not choosing well his path and not gaining enough distance from the killer. That is a fact. The current system do it's job without making you invincible or compensate for you not knowing what you have to do and messing up, how it must be.
So, again, if you really suffer so much hard tunneling in all your games, upload multiple recordings (something that is not going to be hard for you, as from the way you talk it seems you get tunneled every single game) to see how and why you get tunneled so much. Because no, it hasn't being proof that you suffer that much tunneling, and it can be a hated playstyle and all what you want, but that people hate it doesn't mean it happens so often as you and other claims.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546523#Comment_3546523
Having that monstrous flaming pile of spaghetti is a common complaint I've seen for years. Apparently it's super unwieldy. Would help explain the enormous drain on resources the game is, and how difficult it has been to thoroughly optimize.
Maybe, but I still doubt it is to that level of spaghetti. Just for more context, a video tutorial of 10 minutes showing how to implement the classes to do simple local recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fEGDY7mg3sNo HUD or anything, but still, in just 10 minutes by implementing what the engine already give you done you have the base for a functional replay system. So who knows why they are so adamant in not implementing it.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546235#Comment_3546235
I admittedly know squat about game developing. But is it possible this engine can do this & allow for that, however the way they built their game around that engine does not?
If that's not the case, then I cannot imagine why they don't add a replay system of some sort.
I just started learning Unreal (thanks to Unity just destroying itself), but as far as I have seen in the tutorial I posted it should be as simple as having a "sixth player" that act as the recorder of the match by receiving the data from the server. Then you implement the already available and done functions on the engine to get, load and play the file in game and done. They would need to add some code on top of that for additional functionality, but for simple "record to file and be able to rewatch later" it's all.
So, if they really can't do it for code reasons they should have the biggest and messiest spaghetti code in the story of computer programming.
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@JPLongstreet said:
They've said several times that any match replay system would have had to been originally coded back in 2016. It's too late now, they'd have to recode the game from scratch to add it, something they've said they have no plans to do.
Maybe in a DBD2?
And in another post we had come to the conclusion that it is a lie:
Overview of the Replay system for recording and playback of gameplayThe engine is not only capable of doing replays, it has a whole system that you only need to implement to save and reproduce the files. It isn't hard to do either, at it's seems:
Overview This tutorial is intended to show you how to easily create a basic replay system, enabling you to record game data to a hard drive and play it back at a later time. I spent quite some time...So, do you really believe that I can implement a replay system to the game with just a tutorial reading, and a whole developing team with millions of dollars can't figure it out?
I'm not even saying they don't have others reasons for not wanting to doing it, but "We can't because we have to recode the whole game" it's definitely not a valid one.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
You see the same Survivor on death hook now and you decide to go for them (tunneling) but they suddenly just stop moving and give up. Do you feel bad about this? Or do you just "nice, thanks" and hook them and move on?
If I "see the same Survivor", meaning that I saw him way after getting unhooked then I'm not tunneling, It was just bad luck I found him again. Either way, no, I don't feel bad. It is a game and you should play to win it, and if he just don't want to keep playing for whatever reason then it is on him.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545920#Comment_3545920
So what you are saying is that it's impossible to down any of the remaining 3 survivors? I've been playing killer for years, and trust me, all 4 survivors are downadble and hookable. If you are having trouble downing any of the 3 survivors, then you need to work on your skills. Something is veeeery wrong in how you play killer. I feel like I've never seen a streamer unable to down more than 1 survivor in a match. This seems like a problem unique to you.
Not getting eliminated from a match before you had a chance to do anything is abusable in your opinion? Man, are you really listening to yourself? You hook the same person twice, without hooking anyone else. And you're telling me you are unable to down anyone else before this person dies? Unless you are constantly playing with cheaters who use significant speed hacks, then you are very out of touch with reality.
What I proposed would only work once per match, and only IF a certain condition is met: 1 person on death hook, and no-one else hooked.
How is being entitled when you want a chance to play the match, and not get constantly harassed until death, before you managed to get any points? You really think people will still want to play the game after matches like this?
My god, the amount of fallacies and offtopic nonsense in a single post 🤣
Yes, it's abusable not getting eliminated from a match when you have literally god mode and are able to do anything you would do without it, specially when a SWF could technically use this to win the game without letting the killer any chance. It is abusable being able to do protection hits infinitely. It is abusable in all ways imaginable and any person with a little brain power and time to think it for a couple of seconds would got to the same conclusion.
And your entitlement comes from your way of expressing it. "It is a right!!!"... em, no, you don't have any right to not being the first one eliminated from a match, and you don't have the right to have anything protecting you from it, including the current free BT.
And if you don't want to play a the game after matches where things like that happens, it's on you. But don't come complaining that the game should hold your hand even more.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
Just yesterday I had a killer hardcore tunnel someone out of the game before ever hooking someone else. I did my best to protect that person, but in the end the killer got them. How much fun do you think that person had? How much do you think they want to continue playing this game?
Like I said in other posts, if a person is on a death hook, and no-one else has been hooked, make them unable to go down until someone else is hooked.
And yeah, the DS nerf just opened the floodgates to tunneling. The skill check has always been hard to hit on consoles and lower-end PCs. And if you miss it, the perk is dead for the rest of the game. So much for the anti-tunneling help. Did the devs increase the size of the skill check to help with the usability/accessibility of this perk? No. Did the devs make it so even if you miss the skill check, you can still use DS after the next unhook? No. What did the devs do? Reduce the stun to 3 seconds, so the killers don't even feel the punishment. This change to DS actually did a lot to promote tunneling.
IF the devs actually want DS to be a viable perk for everyone, but not increase the stun time, they could do this:
- increase the skill check so that people can hit it. Defense from tunneling should not be a privilege, it should be a right. If you equipped a perk, it should be functionable.
- make it so even if you miss the skill check, the perk will still re-activate after the next unhook
- after the stun, make the killer Incapacitated (unable to use their M2) for 10 seconds. The killer can still go after the survivor, and use M1, but they can't just M2 (this is critical with huntress, nurse, wesker, blight, who don't feel the 3 second stun)
So, again, what you want is an abusable system granting protection from losing (unable to go down until next hook? Really?).
And "Defense from tunneling should not be a privilege, it should be a right."? That's the most entitled survivor main thing that I have hear in all my time playing this game. It's like a killer saying "BHVR need to implement a mechanic that automatically injure healthy survivors and hooks the injured ones if survivors tunnels the gens in less than 4 minutes. Defense from gen rushing should not be a privilege, it should be a right!" 🤣
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544791#Comment_3544791
The game needs to change in such a way that killers do not even need to consider tunneling. This isn't about killers utilizing it as a win strategy. Its about the overall experience of playing as survivor and in many cases being able to stay in a match longer than it took to find one. Killers should be incentivized to go after other survivors so much that tunneling an unhooked survivor is not even an option to consider. If the game can't change to encourage that, then things need to change to discourage killers from tunneling survivors off the hook. It is completely unfair when that survivor is at a total disadvantage to the situation because someone decided to unhook them by the killer or the killer simply chooses to go right back to them. The unhook protections are nowhere near enough. Its a start, but much more needs to be done to address this.
In other words, even when the system in place do it's job and is enough discouragement to not tunnel unless the survivor mess it up, what you want is for BHVR to force killers to not go for you even if you are the best option (and again, with the free BT if you become the best option to chase after an unhook it's on you) with yet another hand holding mechanic that protects you from having to lose because your or other survivor's mistakes.
And since you suffer so much tunneling that your "overall experience" with the game is so bad, you won't mind uploading some gameplay of all those moments so we can see how and why that tunneling was happening, so you can prove that the system it's not working as intended.
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@JVJoyner said:
Now hear me out before I get bombarded by the "Get good"/"Skill issue" jerks.
Vaulting has been nerfed. I don't care if people say it hasn't or it was OP. It's been NERFed.
I vault with a drop today and an alien's tail goes flying over the vault, after I jumped, and I still get hit even though I'm below the vault?
I vault, land on the other side of the pallet, feet on ground, then get snatched up by the killer like they grabbed me.
I am forced to play anti tunneling perks because you refuse to do anything about tunneling killers.
I am forced to play anti camping perks because you refuse to do anything about camping.
I am forced to play anti slugging perks because you refuse to do anything about slugging.
I am forced to gamble on which killer I'm going to get because the vast majority of them play with one of the above styles.
Killers can pick you up AFTER you exit a locker.
Alien's tail hit one of my team mates through a bloody wall and has a broken cool down. <-- I don't see you removing this like you did flashlights.
Flashlights have been removed from the game because people were exploiting them with a bug. Punish those exploiting the bug, not the entire survivor base. You do nothing to balance this out on the killer side.
I understand why the game is slightly killer favored. I understand the 4 v 1 needs to have it more towards them. But for crying out loud, it's starting to feel like you don't want people to even consider playing survivor.
The "Get good" group can stuff it before you even start. I hit rank 1 every month and do fine in the game. This is a complaint about the game being unbalanced and nothing being done for killer mains that are ruining this game. I appreciate great killers. I love a good chase. I don't even mind losing to good killer, because it's fun. I don't consider being hit as I'm still on the hook removal animation to be fun. I don't find a killer standing in my face while I'm on hook to be fun.
If you don't want people playing survivor, just make them all bots and force us to play killer. Otherwise, how about you fix the damn game? And don't tell me it's balanced well. I also play killer and it's so overly unbalanced that it's not even a challenge anymore.
So as survivor, please fix the things you're not addressing.
As a killer, please make this game more challenging.
You finished? Alright...
The game has being so survivor sided all these years that now being "slightly balanced" is considered "killer sided". Killers are not OP and had being as nerfed as survivors in the last meta shakes. 90% of the things you said already has gameplay solutions that survivors can do without the need for Papa BHVR to give you yet another hand holding mechanic... and the other 10% are bugs being solved.
In conclusion: You have skill issues. Get good.