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@OrangeBear said:
I don't agree with removing the matchmaking ban because this game has so many characters, perks and maps that could appear in a match and if there was no DC penalty people would dc very frequently because the match wouldn't be to their liking.
The server not responding error is really bad and it shouldn't give you a DC penalty but i think it's not possible for the game to tell if the disconnected server is at fault, it disconnected from you or it's the player that disconnected from the server.
They just really need to fix the dedicated server not responding problem. It hasn't been acknowledged and it's becoming increasingly concerning.
Sorry, but that's not true at all. If it can show you a message exactly pointing that the "dedicated server stopped responding", then the game knows that it was the server that stopped responding and not you closing the game or disconnecting.
One thing would be differentiating between you disconnecting on purpose or because your internet stopped working, another is differentiating between you disconnecting or being forceful disconnected from the match because a server error. In those cases you should not only not get a DC penalty, you should also not lose your addons and offerings.
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@[Deleted User] said:
people still dc against her in my games like please kill switch and fix her she is genuinely killing dbd for me
A killer with 2.97% pickrate according to Nightlight is killing DbD for you? Darn...
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People complained that her 3gen zoning was boring and wanted a chasing killer. They change her to a chasing killer with anti-loop, and now you complain that she can anti-loop.
At this point, it is obvious that you won't stop complaining until she becomes a M1 killer with no power.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569671#Comment_3569671
Just because UE4 has the capability for replay system, doesn't mean DBD is running on a version that supports it.
Updating an engine even if it's just between different versions of the same edition can be a lot of work to update, because the names of functions can change or their parameters change. The devs have stated that their current engine does not support it, so just posting that it's something UE4 can support doesn't mean the devs are using the right version of UE4 for it.
There is not such a big difference in API from a minor version to another to be such a big job changing from "4.20" to "4.27" for example. That would be bad practice from Epic itself. In fact, there should not be any unless they are working with a non-production ready version of the engine.
So the devs have stated a lie for whatever the real reasons making them not wanting to add a replay mode are, but "because the engine *" is not one of them.
EDIT - Well, no more room for doubt:
They are in the most updated version of UE4. There is no reason to not do it, or better said, the one they gave is not a valid one.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
does anyone get disconnected when they're winning ?
2 times today both with legion, I start winning first match> dc, then in this one just after getting a 5th frenzy hit against biggest obnoxious tryhards dc again, apparently everyone else get points but not me .. ?? and all epic games accounts of course
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4LV6VQ6LVQDX/5644564-png.png
"The dedicated server stopped responding" or something like that (mine is in spanish)? Yes. I also had noticed an increase in disconnections that conveniently only happens when I'm winning as killer or when the killer is winning when I play survivor.
Don't know if it is because the server are really messed up with the event, or another form of hacking.
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569653#Comment_3569653
Are you on steam? Tuesday nights around this time is steam maintenance which can kick you out of a game. I've noticed instances of being kicked out of a match usually shows bloodpoints for other players.
I'm on Epic, and it has happened to me as well.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569644#Comment_3569644
Even if the devs took the time to upgrade the base engine to support a replay system, many people aren't going to dive into their replays just to verify whether or not someone cheated if it wasn't blatantly obvious.
They don't need to upgrade anything. Unreal Engine 4 not only is perfectly capable of having a replay system implemented, it already has it implemented. All you have to do is have a "5º player" acting as a recorder of the match and then implement the already available methods in the engine to get the file and reproduce it in game.
Overview of the Replay system for recording and playback of gameplayThere is tutorials in Youtube that had the base implemented in 10 minutes.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569376#Comment_3569376
That doesn't explain why I was the only person she was slugging. The fact that she ran Deerstalker was yet another reason I came to the conclusion that she targeted me and me alone for the slugging, so that she'd be able to find me no matter where I crawled (because iirc, Distortion doesn't work when you're slugged).
I believe she could have gotten the 4k if she wanted to, but she clearly didn't want to. If I was such a threat with Distortion and medkit, why didn't she just tunnel me out? She could've won easily after that.
So I still believe she wasn't really trying to win.
She wasn't trying to win, but left you to go find your teammates because she saw them healing. Right.
It could be coincidence, after all she didn't do many downs to start with. Maybe she thought it was the right time to slug someone when you got down, and she would have done it to anyone else in that moment. Maybe she noticed that you had Distortion and the medkit and again, thought that the smart thing was slugging you as you would be able to heal be yourself without she being able to see your aura with NC. Whatever the reason, there is no signal there that she was targeting you or that her intention was harassing and being toxic. If it was, she would have stayed by your side until you bleed out the first time she downed you.
So you can believe whatever you want, the facts proves you are wrong. That besides what was already said: Enough basekit perks already.
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@lav3 said:
That looks definitely cheat to me. Especially right before he goes inside shack.
Don't understand why there are many "your fault" comments when cheaters are the one to be blamed.
Might have downed Ace if waited a bit longer but it just sucks when you know you encountered cheater.
The guy literally speed up after going around the snare and before entering the shack. It is subtle, but it is there. That so many people is ignoring that fact and some are so determined to prove it isn't the case baffles me.
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The game need a little more gore in general, specially in old moris.
Nothing too disturbing or realistic, but it is funny to me to see Trapper cutting someone non stop with his machete in his mori and the result is just a couple splashes of blood and not a single mark in the body.
Also, let's face it... DbD mobile moris are way more bloody and brutal. We need those in main DbD ASAP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX-tT03KEZU -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569147#Comment_3569147
Slugging definitely isn't good, and she definitely could have gotten more kills, but that wasn't her intention. Her intention was to harass me with the slugging, considering she hooked the teammates whenever she downed them as in normal gameplay, but she just left me slugged throughout the match. That is definitely targeted harassment. In the post-game chat, we wondered why she would do that, and we concluded that she might have a vendetta against Jane. Who knows...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569158#Comment_3569158
I'd be fine with that, since I rarely get to do blinds or pallet stuns.
What you have failed to mention is that she had Deerstalker and Nurse's Calling, you had Distortion and a medkit, and everytime she slugged you she went away from you to stop your teammates from healing. Not only that, but the first time she slugged you 2 gens was already done and the second time there was 4. And how you got to the "conclusion" that she was harassing you is by one of your teammates joking by saying "vendetta against janes I guess".
In other words, she was not harassing you, she was slugging you as an strategy to gain time and probably avoid you getting healed without being able to see your aura.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1953978441?t=01h18m49s
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https://youtu.be/E3kjT-GpAT8
Another example of an obvious case of whatever cheat is around there right now.
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Well, as I see it, this event is the perfect example of how this is a bad idea for a killer power in general. Every second you spent in the "pocket dimension" is a second you can't be pressuring gens or maybe changing targets. Also, how would perks like Jolt or SH work in this case?
For much it hurts, cool not always means gameplay compatible.
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Oh yes, because in this era of Usain Bolt survivors that uses haste, endurance and pallets with WoO to extend chases to infinity and gens times lower than ever, what we need is an automatic way of stunning the killer midchase that if he wants to "counter" would need to waste time in doing so and doesn't have any drawback for the survivors.
I like the concept of the perk, but it would make matches really dreary, leaving killers weak and weary.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569063#Comment_3569063
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569065#Comment_3569065
And hey, the devs went ahead and gave us the anti-facecamp feature rather than telling us to run Reassurance, so why not?
And those who argue that "Survivors don't need basekit everything" are just exaggerating. We have basekit endurance after being unhooked, we have the anti-facecamp mechanic now, and none of those things make us invincible. They can be played around quite easily in fact. They're just meant to give Survivors a fighting chance when they would otherwise have none. Being slug-camped by the Killer just to be insta-downed again after getting picked up, you have no chance. Unless you're lucky enough to have the right perks at the right time, but when does luck exist in DBD?
Why not, you ask? Because I think most of us (obviously, not people with the survivor main mindset) would agree that we got to the point of survivors already having enough second-second chances tools in form of perks and mechanics to say "If you still go down, it's on you". At what point would you say the game does enough heavy lifting for you? When everytime you are downed you get another chance to not suffer the consequences of losing?
And sorry, but what I see in that clip is a failed attempt from your partners to body block the killer and get protection hits, which is the real solution to this problem, only that you all failed to do it. No need for more base mechanics protecting survivors from things that already have gameplay solutions.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/394767/huge-spike-of-subtle-cheaters-recently
Look at the user name... isn't that a BOT you're chasing?
Of course it is a bot, it was substituting the 5º survivor, hence the "05" and not having the "BOT" tag beside his name... wait...
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567359#Comment_3567359
I reported a survivor telling he was speed-hacking, with video and comments about the blood spacing : nothing happened to him. (I keep the Steam ID of cheaters)
Well, I have got 4 notifications already in the last weeks. They take their sweet time to do something after you made the ticket, however.
Also, don't use the chat tool to send the video, I have notice that when you open the ticket that way it doesn't appear to attach the video. Open the ticket manually.
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And just for fun, to all the people that don't stop saying "It was MfT", since when MfT give you a sudden boost of speed mid chase?
https://imgur.com/a/xoUcx9qThat people are unable to see that obvious change of speed there is very concerning...
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@artblizzard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568298#Comment_3568298
OK, let's go, firstly, ignorance is not necessary and secondly, I am not forced to spend money on an assassin that I have no interest in playing and I already know how it works from YouTube and Twitch to show me how the character plays, and I mean, Wesker doesn't seem to have a cooldown since in the game I made him make a mistake, I covered a considerable distance and he stayed close to me, in another he jumped over a pallet and managed to damage me in time, that is, it's fair the character doesn't suffer these consequences with the power where even if it doesn't contaminate you, it can reach the right distance to cause damage to you? I already mentioned this there, I'm not a professional and maybe I could be wrong. But is this ignorance necessary?
The Wiki don't cost money, and it gives you all the numeric info you need for anything in the game, including Wesker:
Movement Speeds:
- Walking: 4.6 m/s
- Bound: 14 m/s
Bound:
- Power Charge time: 1.5 seconds
- Power Recharge time: 6 seconds per Charge
- Reduced Power Recharge Time bonus for Infected Survivors: -0.5 seconds per infected Survivor
- Minimum Bound distance: 1 metre
- Below this threshold, a Bound will not be initiated.
- Chain Bound Window duration: 2 seconds
- This refers to for how long after a first Bound, a second one can be initiated.
- Bound Survivor-Grab duration: 0.86 seconds
Bound Durations:
- First Bound duration: 0.5 seconds
- Second Bound duration: 1 second
- This Bound is also referred to as the Chain Bound, since The Mastermind can chain it to the first Bound.
Bound Ranges:
The Mastermind's Bounds do not have a fixed range, only their individual durations and their shared Movement speeds are defined in code.
Due to this and the Bounds having acceleration curves, an exact calculation of their range is not possible without in-depth developer-knowledge, only approximations.
- The first Bound has an approximate range of 7 metres (the actual range is shorter due to acceleration).
- The second Bound has an approximate range of 14 metres (the actual range is shorter due to acceleration).
Bound Camera Modifiers:
- Yaw multiplier: x1
- Yaw refers to left-right movement of the camera.
- Yaw limit: 140 °
- Pitch multiplier: x1
- Pitch refers to up-down movement of the camera.
Infection:
- Maximum Infection level: 100 Charges
- If a Survivor reaches this level, they will enter Critical Infection and receive the Hindered Status Effect.
- Passive Infection gain : 0.8 Charges per second
- Initial Infection level: 20 Charges
- This refers to the amount of Infection a Survivor receives when they first become infected.
- Infection Incubation threshold: 20 Charges
- Below this threshold, the Infection is essentially non-existent.
- The HUD icon and Passive Infection gain only start appearing / taking effect once the threshold is reached.
- Infection Healing multiplier: x1 (base used for Add-ons)
- Infection Removal Interaction duration: 5 seconds
- Infection Removal Killer Instinct duration: 4 seconds
- Infection Penalty when grabbed while already infected: +20 Charges
Cool-downs:
- Bound Cancellation cool-down: 1.5 seconds
- Bound cool-downs:
- Vaulting an obstacle: 1.5 seconds
- Slamming into a Breakable Wall or Pallet: 2 seconds
- Letting the Chain Bound Window elapse: 3 seconds
- Dropping from a ledge: 3 seconds
- Completion with or without hitting a Survivor: 3 seconds
- Completion with throwing a Survivor: 5 seconds
Collision Detection:
This refers to the Collision Boxes used to detect environmental objects or Survivors during a Bound
- Horizontal angle: ±10 °
- Vertical angle: ±20 °
- Size for Environmental-Object Detection: 20 centimetres
- Size for Survivor-Grab Detection: 30 centimetres
Throw:
- Throw duration: 0.6 seconds
- Throw Damage distance: 0.75 metres
- If a Survivor is thrown into an obstacle within that distance, they receive damage and are immobilised.
- Throw Movement Block duration: 1.9 seconds
- This refers to how long after being thrown, Survivors are unable to move for.
Hindered Effect:
The value is applied as a multiplier to the Survivor's Movement speed.
- Strength: -8 %
Next time, look at it before posting things like that. And you should start playing killer, even if it is to get knowledge of how the other side play so you can adapt better when going against that killer. As a killer main, that helped me with my survivor plays.
Albert Wesker or "The Mastermind" is one of 33 Killers currently featured in Dead by Daylight. He was introduced as the Killer of CHAPTER 25: Resident Evil™: PROJECT W, a Chapter DLC released on 30 August 2022. He originates from the video game franchise Resident Evil, specifically Resident Evil 5 (2009). Albert Wesker is a brilliant and ruthless mastermind infused with the Power of Uroboros. His personal Perks, Superior Anatomy, Awakened Awareness, and Terminus, allow him to vault faster, see o -
SoloQ needs a ping system and / or in game voice chat so everybody can realize even when having the same coordination tools as SWF they keep losing because the problem the average survivor have was never a lack of information, but the lack of game sense to use the information they have correctly.
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@JoaoVanBlizzard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568380#Comment_3568380
But I'm not asking for a nerf or buff with this feature, the idea is to eliminate the exploid of killers who leave their survs on the ground and don't want to engage due to toxicity, it has nothing to do with killers being strong or anything like that.
"Exploid of killers who leave their survs on the ground". That you consider that an exploit says it all.
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@dbdthegame said:
I can't be the only one experiencing this, surely. I'm talking survivors that obviously have their speeds boosted to ~107-110% or who intermittently increase. I hadn't run into any over the past year, but I've seen about 3 this past week that I'm 100% convinced were cheating, and a few more than were very questionable.
Things like this clip:
Where the Ace takes a very wide path around my snare, and STILL manages to make the fast vault on the window while blatantly speeding up inside the shack. There were a lot more questionable plays during this match, like playing extremely unsafe tiles perfectly no matter how many mindgames or how many times I hid my red stain.
Please do something about this BHVR.
It was obviously speedhacking, or to be more precise lagswitching.
I call them "corner drifters", as very subtle ones only does it around corners so they get a boost when they think you are not looking, and I see them pretty often in my games. Like this Ada that I was not so sure she was lagswitching until she even broke the lag compensation and the animations:
https://imgur.com/a/Sg0rqZMThen there is the ones like in your video and this one, the not as subtle ones that does it everytime they think they are going to get hit with the hope you don't notice as you lunge:
https://imgur.com/a/jgNP2EJ#khIAORGAnd there is the ones that don't give a damn like the one @ButterFlee13 posted or this one I got by chance doing the Dwight challenge (even tho, mine was also trying to be subtle):
https://imgur.com/a/7KqHm6V#xZPBoxNAnd before someone said it, it was impossible for him to have Background Player (ironic), and I'm sure he was coming from another gen that just poped up at the other side of the map.
And about the ones that appear to be using MfT + Hope when it is not even the EGC or don't even have the perks equipped, yes, I also have being noticing those and again, in a lot of games.
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@Bravescorpio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3568274#Comment_3568274
Just another person who doesn't actually know anything starting a thread like they do.
"No cooldown and no punishment for his power"
Like.. #########. PLAY HIM. PLAY HIM. Learn something.
His power has a cooldown, every charge needs to recharge. If you "pull up" your power at the wrong time and then want to "disarm" it and continue with a normal chase its agonizingly long to wait before you can swing your weapon.
Also, if you miss with his power you will be sent flying a few dozen feet in the wrong direction, at which point the survivor gets a chance to extend the chase.
Those are all punishments for using his power badly. However, Wesker is a very good killer, and IF you use his power right, he is a monster. But he CERTAINLY has counterplay. Give me a tight loop against Wesker and I'll make him an M1 killer all day long.
At minimum, they could read the wiki before start showing his ignorance in the forum and start asking for nerfs.
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I used to joke that someday survivors would claim that the killer being able to M1 and attack survivors was OP and toxic and BHVR should remove it from the game.
Every post I read in this forum lately confirms to me that everyday we are closer to that moment.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567917#Comment_3567917
I really feel like you're losing sight of the most important part of this conversation, which is that we're talking about people being tunnelled. We're not talking about general chases, we're not asking for the game or for any perk to cover up mistakes that people make in the course of normal gameplay, we are talking about someone specifically being targeted while they are much more vulnerable than the default.
That is relevant, because we're not talking about general chase perks, we're talking about anti-tunnel. We're talking about DS specifically, even, the hardest anti-tunnel to try and weaponise. You as the killer can completely invalidate and ignore these perks by not tunnelling people. If you choose to tunnel someone, there should be the risk that they have genuinely potent tools to make it not worth your time, otherwise why wouldn't every killer tunnel all the time? That won't lead to a reduction in tunnelling, obviously.
I'll briefly address the things in your brackets there, too, just to be clear:
- When I refer to people not slugging, I don't understand what the confusion is or why this counts as "mental gymnastics". You said killers would slug more, I said I don't think they would. That's a pretty straightforward claim and counter-claim situation, so if I'm missing something, absolutely let me know and I'll be happy to clarify.
- For the perk vs mechanics thing, you're the one who asked why the perk should be stronger and more forgiving than the basekit mechanic- and the answer is because it's a perk, it's something you're bringing to get a benefit above and beyond what's available to you in the basekit. It's fair for the basekit to be minor and heavily reliant on skill expression, but the tools you bring to do that job should be better than that, because you're giving up a perk slot for it. Otherwise why bother running the perk?
- Anti-tunnel should work together and stack so that you can actually make yourself an unviable chase. Right now the killer can either hit you straight away to clear your Endurance, or they can count to ten. Neither of those are enough of an investment that tunnelling that survivor isn't worth it, so if the multiple perks involved would work together, those killers would think twice before tunnelling that survivor, making the anti-tunnel actually effective.
- Why are you referring to Haste and Endurance before the survivor is hooked? Those aren't anti-tunnel and most of them (Endurance, anyway, less so Haste) need to be nerfed anyway, they're not relevant here.
- That's literally what "deterring" means, so maybe this is a language issue? When I say killers would be deterred from tunnelling, what I mean is that they would make the choice not to tunnel because they either suspect a survivor has anti-tunnel tools like DS, or because they're assuming everyone has it. That's exactly what "deterrent" means and it is in fact what I want, it is healthier for killers to avoid recently unhooked survivors and chase someone else.
It's fair to expect people in a PvP game to get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win. That should imply, then, that we're giving them the reasonable space to do so, right? Being tunnelled is not normal gameplay, it's explicitly starting a chase injured and in what is likely to be a bad area. That's not normal gameplay conditions to improve, because if you're unhooked and healed while the killer's chasing someone else, you should ideally be starting the next chase healthy and in a different part of the map that likely has more resources. That's breathing room that gives you more time to practice and improve, which is something most people are gonna require if they're going to get better. As you get better and better, you'll need that breathing room less and less, which is totally normal and how improvement works in every other game.
I feel like you're really dancing around the issue of tunnelling being a bad thing we should want to fix, honestly. You keep drifting out into talking about general concepts like people getting good or having their mistakes covered for, while completely avoiding that we aren't talking about normal gameplay, we're talking about tunnelling.
The bottom line here is that tunnelling is still an issue in this game, both in terms of balance and in terms of fun factor. That's something you seem reluctant to acknowledge here, so it bears repeating.
Also, DS does not "work fine". It's really weak and requires you to already be in a strong tile when you go down because you get very little distance.
Abridged version of your whole point:
- How many hand holding do survivors need before we can start saying "You have enough tools to extend chases and second chances to not going down easily if you are good enough"?
- Yes.
That's it. That is your whole premise, and you are trying to come up with whatever you can think of to try to make it a valid point (it is a mental gymnastic because of your reasoning for why they won't slug, specially when many people have said that's what would happen as that is what happened and the main reason to nerf it, killers slugging people because they assume they use it, an those people using it with Unbreakable).
which is that we're talking about people being tunnelled. We're not talking about general chases
Oh, but we are. Before you can even be tunneled, you had to first go down at least one time already. And before you even go down that first time, you have a lot of tools already to make it so by the time the killer get you, 2-3 gens would get done. That's the thing. What you are asking is, again, having more safe nets on top of all that.
we're not asking for the game or for any perk to cover up mistakes that people make in the course of normal gameplay
Yes, you are. At this point, with all the second chances perks there is and the base mechanics already implemented in the game, you are. Simple as that. Also, "normal gameplay"?...
We're talking about DS specifically, even, the hardest anti-tunnel to try and weaponise.
Now, you mean, because it was precisely for that reason that it was nerfed. And even now, they do weaponise it in a more effective way that you are trying to make everyone believe and you know it. So, by that logic, making it stronger would only mean that they would weaponize it even more.
You as the killer can completely invalidate and ignore these perks by not tunnelling people
Except when the survivors force you to not ignore those perks and start to block you on loops when you are chasing somebody else, for example. We already talked about that.
If you choose to tunnel someone, there should be the risk that they have genuinely potent tools to make it not worth your time
Again, why? Why there should be that risk? Also, again, you are assuming that perks like DS or OTR are not doing their job of granting yet another second chance in case of being tunneled and making you not worth the time to keep chasing if you use well the chance they grant you.
otherwise why wouldn't every killer tunnel all the time?
Good question, why every killer isn't tunneling in all their matches right now if it is easy and beneficial as you claim to be? Even it being the most reasonable thing to do and the most effective strategy to follow in this game, why not every killer does it? Can it be that right now, with all the tools survivors have, including in game mechanics implemented for that sole purpose, it is not as easy and convenient as you are claiming it to be unless the survivor make it be? Because you said it yourself: "Good survivors are not tunneled as much".
It's fair to expect people in a PvP game to get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win.
Then problem solved! Good survivors make it not convenient and effective for killers to tunnel them according to you, so if you don't want to get tunneled just get good at the game, that's it. Nothing more to debate.
That should imply then
Oh, there's more? But there is nothing more to discuss, we already come to the logical and factual conclusion of this topic...
that we're giving them the reasonable space to do so, right?
No... unless you are meaning a separate practice mode, if not it would mean that you are exactly asking for the game to adapt to the unskilled population of the game, instead of expecting them getting good as in any other PvP game.
Being tunnelled is not normal gameplay
That is like saying "Gen rushing is not normal gameplay". Tunneling for a killer is doing your objective as fast as you can, because it is the most effective thing to do. By design, in this game, tunneling is the most normal and effective way to play, and even devs recognize that. That's your main problem, you are treating tunneling as a "problem to fix" when it is not something that need a fix in the first place unless you are talking about the extreme cases (known as "hard tunneling), and that has already being addressed.
it's explicitly starting a chase injured and in what is likely to be a bad area
And that is not normal gameplay because...? Are you implying that survivors need to be in perfect conditions and not in any disadvantage in any point of the match, or how in the hell that is something that don't fit inside "normal gameplay"?
That's not normal gameplay conditions to improve, because if you're unhooked and healed while the killer's chasing someone else, you should ideally be starting the next chase healthy and in a different part of the map that likely has more resources. That's breathing room that gives you more time to practice and improve, which is something most people are gonna require if they're going to get better.
So, you are saying that survivors should start every chase in the best conditions possible, or the game is punishing unskilled people, and that's why the game should guarantee that every single survivor can't be in any disadvantage ever.
Again, that's like saying that you should not be able to get killed in a FPS if you don't have any ammo left. That someone should not be able to do combos in a fighting game if you are not able to also do them. That someone should not be able to buy the orange and red streets on Monopoly as those are the most profitable streets and would put the rest of the player in a disadvantage. It's absurd, and it blows my mind that you even thought that is a valid and legit point to made about a PvP game.
Improvement comes from practice and experience. The guy that makes 25 kills in a row in CoD are not able to do it because he was always in the perfect conditions and in an advantageous point, but because he gained enough experience from suffering the consequences of not being skilled enough and developed the required game sense to overcome those odds against him.
Your logic is flawed, and you are not in the right here. You are just using that argument to try to have the reason after we already established that with the enough skill and game sense right now a survivor have enough tools to make downing him not an easy task already. In other words, you are moving the goalpost.
As you get better and better, you'll need that breathing room less and less, which is totally normal and how improvement works in every other game.
Even if you were right (which you are not, as we already established... can't wait for you to ignore it and keep it with your bogus arguments), how we control the "breathing room" we give everybody? How we control that the more experienced survivors don't abuse having that breathing room to get an unfair advantage? How we take away that "breathing room" when a survivor don't need it anymore?
The answer is simple: We don't, because we can't. And that's why you can't balance the game in any aspect thinking about the less skilled players.
And no, not every other game works that way. There is not any PvP game that give you any kind of training wheels, apart of what I already said: Ranked matchmaking, and an offline practice mode. So, again, if you want people to have a "safe space" to improve, ask for BHVR to add killer bots so they can practice offline, not for the game to be balanced and adapted to those that doesn't want to gain the experience and develop a good game sense and want the game to do the heavy lifting for them.
I feel like you're really dancing around the issue of tunnelling being a bad thing we should want to fix, honestly.
Maybe because first, it was never the point of the post, it was about buffing DS so you have yet another thing covering even more for your mistakes. Second, I see what you are doing, but I already said it so I would say it again: Tunneling is not something that should be "fixed" and there is already mechanics implemented to discourage it (specially the more extreme form of it) without taking away the possibility of doing it if the survivors mess up and make it convenient for the killer, as it should be.
Now, you can already throw a fallacy and make the point that I'm just against buffing DS because I want to tunnel in peace, even if I suggested a more logical way of buffing the perk so is more useful without it being yet another abusable hand holding tool for survivors.
You keep drifting out into talking about general concepts like people getting good or having their mistakes covered for, while completely avoiding that we aren't talking about normal gameplay, we're talking about tunnelling.
You are the one that keep drifting away from the main points of the argument, that keep insisting to ignore the fact that before tunneling can even happen other "normal gameplay" things had being in place, that there is already enough tools to discourage and make tunneling someone not easy or convenient, and keep saying that tunneling isn't "normal gameplay" when by design it is the most logical and effective strategy to follow in this game as a killer specially in this haste + endurance meta with gens times as low as they are: Take out a survivor as soon as possible.
Also, you are ignoring the fact that someone used as an argument for buffing the perk a gif showing an Ada not making the right call as an example of the perk not being useful, when it obviously did it's job as a second chance perk that you can use on top of your other second chances and chasing perks in case you are tunneled, but that never was designed to deter anyone from tunneling or guarantee you a free escape from getting hooked.
You want to make the perk more useful? Again, make it so it doesn't permanently deactivate unless you used it or until the EGC. That way, if you are not tunneled in your first unhook, you can have that second-second chance in your second still. That's a buff that isn't meant so the perk keep covering up for your mistake even after you have used up all the other safety nets you have available. But that's not what people are asking for in this post, including you.
The bottom line here is that tunnelling is still an issue in this game, both in terms of balance and in terms of fun factor.
No, it is not. Even less with the current Haste + Endurance meta, the addition of the AFC mechanic, and gen times being as low as before. Hard tunneling was a problem, but it was addressed with the basekit BT, and even more now with the AFC. And again, the devs themselves recognize that tunneling is the best strategy to follow for a killer, and that's why they implemented things to make it inconvenient without removing it completely from the game.
In other words, again, "hard tunneling" has already being addressed and doesn't need any more "fixes".
That's something you seem reluctant to acknowledge here, so it bears repeating.
Because it was never the point of the argument until you make it to be. And the only thing you are repeating are your fallacies. In this case and about all the "tunneling is a problem", a try to make a loaded question fallacy.
Well, I don't have any problem to say that tunneling is not a problem, as I already did. "Hard tunneling" was a problem, solved already, and there is already gameplay solutions the survivors can do to deal with a killer trying to do the best strategy to follow and take them out of the game ASAP. That, and like I said, I play survivor 50/50 right now, and I have not seeing so much tunneling done to anyone as many of you claim.
And even with this, my point of the real argument here still stands: DS is a second-second chance tool that does it job of giving you the chance to get away from an otherwise totally lost situation. What you do with that chance, it's on you. And pretending it to be buffed it's you wanting for it to cover up your mistakes, and you even recognized that when you said it would make sense "it'll cover for some degree of poor play".
There is already enough things covering for poor play in the game that survivors can use before they even have the need to use DS. So, again, at that point, if you mess up and waste your second-second chance, it's on you.
Also, DS does not "work fine". It's really weak and requires you to already be in a strong tile when you go down because you get very little distance.
Yes, it works fine. And you have 10 seconds of haste and a free endurance on unhook to get to that strong tile where you would be able to waste more time of the killer and make use of your DS effectively. See how is you who doesn't want to acknowledge that even before you have the chance to use DS, there is other "normal gameplay" things that happens?
And after all this, keep on with your cherry picking, your ignoring of facts and probably a couple of ad hominems of how I'm someone that defend tunneling and that's why I don't want DS buffed added to the list of fallacies you used, even when I already explained everything in detail on why DS doesn't need a buff or tunneling is not the problem you and others are claiming it to be, even less now. I'm done, say what you want.
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The killer is not the host, and if he is lagged not everyone is. That was when the game was p2p, now it has dedicated servers.
So, if everyone is lagged then more than probably there is something wrong with the servers themselves. If not, probably your connection.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567879#Comment_3567879
1: As I went over, that's just bodyblocking as it is now. You down them and move on. That's kinda annoying, sure, but it's far from actually giving the survivors value and it's definitely not a reason to avoid buffing DS.
2: I was referring to your comments about there being many sources of anti-tunnel/"second chance". That's technically true, but they don't actually work together and often work against one another, so survivors don't actually have that many layers of protection if they're being tunnelled. They just have the basekit stuff, and then maybe one additional perk-- but OTR is easy to disable (the Endurance, anyway), and DS isn't good enough to do its job, so they don't really have much at all. Yes, there's the 10 seconds of Endurance and Haste, but tunnelling is observably still a problem. After all, it isn't always your fault if you got hooked in a deadzone. If you went down, chances are good those resources were used in that chase, right?
3: Of course it would deter killers from tunnelling? If survivors had genuinely strong anti-tunnel perks, and those perks were reasonably common (which they would be if they were worth running), that would make most killers think twice about tunnelling someone. This was technically the case prior to 6.1.0, though I do think some people have rose-tinted glasses about that. You'd avoid chasing someone because there's a very good chance you'd eat a huge stun even if you downed them again, that's a deterrent against tunnelling.
I'd be fine with more slugging, but I don't think that is what killers would do, because that wouldn't be as game-winning as picking them up + hooking them. There's a lot of perks that counter slugging, and teammates can also counter it by coming and picking them up while you're occupied. That's fine. Also, I never said OTR was better, I said it needed to be less easy to disable. That's me saying it's too weak.
4: Yes. That's what I'm saying. Good survivors and the good killers who face them wouldn't need to worry as much about buffed DS because tunnelling is already a losing strategy against very skilled loopers. Tunnelling is the problem that it is largely below that skill level, which is the entire point and is an issue well worth addressing.
5: I'm asking you how current DS would be weaponised. I definitely had it weaponised against me when that was a thing you could do, but after they introduced the Conspicuous Actions nerf (before it was called that, anyway), that became dramatically harder. It's not impossible to try and weaponise DS in its current form, but it kinda requires the killer to not pay attention and mess up for it to work. It's a healthy design now and can safely be buffed without worrying about it being used offensively.
6: I honestly didn't think I had to justify that first statement? A perk should obviously be stronger than not having a perk, that's the entire point of bringing them. As for giving lesser skilled players more breathing room, expecting them to get better when they're being tunnelled is kind of like throwing someone into the deep end so they'll learn to swim; some can do it, but it's not a fair expectation for everyone. Lesser skilled players would have more opportunity to improve if they had time to reset and begin chases from healthy again, instead of being immediately chased while injured in an area that probably doesn't have many resources if they went down there to begin with.
I'm doing my best to give my reasoning here.
All your arguments lost any meaning the moment you recognized that all what survivors need to not get tunneled is getting good. From that point on, whatever you say is just a try to buff a perk that works fine so it keep covering up more mistakes.
I would try to do a more elaborated response, but obviously you would keep with your mental gymnastics (killers would not slug more because it is not as "winning as picking up and hook"? When have somebody said that a perk should not be stronger than not having a perk, when we were talking about perks vs mechanics?), not giving any arguments for your claims (why should "anti-tunnel" perks and mechanics work together with each other? Why should you be able to stack them up after having a full chase of haste and endurance, getting hooked, and another chase where you go down again?) and cherry picking or ignoring what was already said (It would not "deter" killers, it would force every killer to assume everybody has it just like happened with DH, and that was a super healthy way of playing the game of course). So, at this point, why try.
but it's not a fair expectation for everyone
Wrong. It is exactly the expectation for everyone playing a PvP game, that they would get the necessary skill and game sense to be good at it if they want to win. No other PvP game gives any kind of "breathing room" to people starting, apart from ranked matchmaking to pair him with people of the same skill level (something that the game already has) and a Practice mode. DbD is the first PvP game I ever see where asking for the game to cover up for the mistakes of those players who doesn't are good enough (and don't forget the solos... Won't somebody please think of the SoloQs!!!?) is a legit thing to do.
If you are so worried about the "less skilled" players, ask BHVR to add killer bots so they can practice before going to the online wild, not ask for any more safe nets in form of buffs to perfectly functional perks that only makes good players stronger and start abusing it, the role more dull to play as it gets easier and easier, and the other role more frustrating because you are losing to the survivor's perks and game mechanics, not their skill... apart of all the others problem that this specific case will bring.
Simple as that. And before you say it, if you really play the game "casually and just for fun" you won't mind losing at all, so you won't care about the balance of the game or how strong the perks are.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567705#Comment_3567705
I'll try and condense my responses here and number them for clarity.
1: First, you say that people will use DS as a tool to bully the killer. How? Either they're trying to bodyblock with their basekit BT, in which case they get downed and you move on to their unhooker, or they aren't doing that specifically and they're chasing you down without performing any Conspicuous Actions. Both of those are a net positive for the killer, not a negative, so I'm not understanding this argument.
2: There's a couple of things to say about the other tools you're referring to at multiple points here, but the ones that survivors currently have access to largely all revolve around Endurance, which means you can't use them all to try and make sure you're at a tile. If you're not directly adjacent to something to use, and the killer hits you immediately, you often don't have that much to work with- let alone if it's one of the killers that can completely bypass the Endurance effect to begin with. It's a lot better than it used to be, but if it's meant to be a reason not to buff DS that heavily implies it should be enough as it is, and it's not. Tunnelling is still too easy, because all a killer really has to do is either count to ten, or hit a survivor if they don't hear injured sounds, and they're effectively back to square one with no protection.
I would support changing this as well/instead, of course. The post-unhook protection not being Endurance and not putting you in Deep Wounds would be a pretty huge step forward, not least because it could be coded to be more punishing on killer powers that typically bypass the Endurance. It would be one thing if survivors actually had multiple tools they could use, but they don't, they have to choose which ones because they often invalidate each other.
3: I'd thought I had supported my claim that it should help even when survivors make mistakes, but I'll go into more depth here to make sure we're on the same page for what I'm talking about: If a survivor brings an anti-tunnel perk, one of only four slots they can use period, that perk should be stronger than the basekit mechanics- which are largely based around skill expression. If anti-tunnel perks were strong enough to be used (or were harder to immediately invalidate, as OTR currently needs to be), that would deter killers from feeling completely safe to tunnel someone out who isn't super skilled in chase. That would mean less tunnelling, which would be healthier for everyone.
4: To be clear, I never suggested that all killers who tunnel are bad, I said very skilled killers know tunnelling is a niche tool against actually good survivors. It's often not worth it, and will almost always pale in comparison to spreading your pressure instead-- again, assuming a very good killer going against a team of all four very good survivors. You could argue that level of skill isn't fairly representative of the full game, but that's kinda my point: Tunnelling is so impactful and problematic beneath that level, which is a far larger sample size.
5: For your very last comment, of course I've had DS weaponised against me, I've been playing for a while at this point. What I can confidently say, though, is that I never had DS weaponised against me (in a way that wasn't my fault for not paying attention, anyway) since they added the Conspicuous Actions deactivation requirement. There was a period of time where it disabled on those actions but had a 5 second timer, and it was very hard to weaponise in that period. The only reason people run it now is to try (and fail! because it's bad and designed such that it's hard to do that with!) to weaponise it, but that's because it isn't useful for actually being an anti-tunnel deterrent unless you're already in a strong tile when you go down.
TL;DR: DS only does something if you tunnel or if the survivor is throwing, it should be stronger and more forgiving than basekit mechanics because it's a perk, anti-tunnel tools are weak and have anti-synergy with one another, anti-tunnel tools being stronger would deter killers from chasing any survivor immediately post-unhook which gives lesser skilled players more breathing room to improve. It's a net improvement for everyone, save for players who want tunnelling to be an easy shortcut to value.
1.- I already told you. Survivor get unhooked, has DS, he starts body blocking the killer to force him to break chase even when he is away chasing someone else. It's not an uncommon thing, specially when confronting a bully squad.
2.- What are you talking about? I'm not even understanding what you mean here. Eitherway, if you get hit with the free BT in place, you get an speed boost from the hit and from the haste it gives you. Enough to gain a lot of distance. The same with any other haste + endurance combo. And if the killer only have to count to 10 to get you, again, most than probably you did something to make it so easy for him. Also, and again, even the devs said that the anti-tunneling system never was intended to guarantee you to be safe.
3.- You still fail to explain why it should be as you are saying. Because again, they would not deter killers from stopping tunneling because that's not the main function of the perk either way. In any case, it would be back to slugging everybody because killers would assume everyone would be using DS. Super healthy for everyone. And again, you have just ignored everything else I said about the "healthiness" of your claims. Also, by your own logic, just use OTR instead, as you yourself said that is a better second chance perk in case of tunneling.
4.- So, what you are saying is that good survivors are tunneled less because they are good, have game sense, and enough experience and skill to not get downed again so easily? Uh...
5.- If you had DS weaponized against you, then why are you asking "how" survivors weaponize it? I'm confused. And again, it is not and never was intended as a deterrent for tunneling. It is a second chance perk that gives you the opportunity to not get hooked two times in a row, which it does pretty well, and what you do with that free escape chance is on you. So, and again, asking for it to be buffed so it is "the anti-tunneling it has to be" is just an excuse to have it cover your mistakes even more than it already does. People still miss the power trip it was playing survivor in the day and want it back, as the current power trip is not enough as some killers can still do something in the game. Simple as that.
6.- Again, in your TL;DR says that it should be "stronger and forgiving than a basekit perk", but you fail to yet again explain why. You also failed to explain why the game should "give lesser skilled players more breathing room", because as I said, making it even easier for them would means the reverse as there would be no need to develop any game sense at all.
In other words, you claim a lot of things, but fail to give a justification for those claims other than "Because it should be" while ignoring every fact against it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567671#Comment_3567671
...So you agree it was you who brought up the notion of poor play? I'm not fighting that concept here, I'm perfectly content to debate with that in play, but it was kinda weird for you to turn it back around on me like it was my framing to begin with.
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: All of that is in play and tunnelling is still a problem. It's still possible for a killer to gain undue amounts of value considering how much effort they put in versus how much effort the survivor has to put in to counter it. Tunnelling has not yet been fixed, and it still a problem in the game.
DS being stronger would be a healthy change, because it doesn't do anything unless the killer chooses to tunnel - or unless the survivor tries to weaponise it, but considering that's a massive win for the killer, I think we can safely discard it as a possibility for now. It's not super relevant here, I'm sure you'll agree.
There's another thing I kind of want to draw attention to here, which is your last statement. Nobody is suggesting that the game should cover for survivors making poor plays in general. When I brought that up, I was referring specifically and solely to Decisive Strike, so the actual thing being discussed is: Should killers only be punished for tunnelling if the survivor they try to tunnel is more skilled than they are?
I would argue that's already the case, personally. If the survivor is noticeably skilled at looping, they're already not the ones tunnelled off hook that frequently. DS as it is now only punishes killers for trying to tunnel very skilled survivors, and that's redundant. DS, specifically, probably should punish you for trying to tunnel the weak link, because that's where tunnelling is at its most problematic right now.
It's all well and good to say survivors should improve, but that only comes with practice, and the killer being free to tunnel them out because the current anti-tunnel implementation is flawed and only works for the already-skilled severely cuts down how much they can attempt that practice.
Let's say that DS was improved to be a 5-second stun again. Does this affect skilled killers who are facing skilled survivors? No, because in that situation we're self-selecting for killers that are skilled, they're probably not tunnelling anyway and they definitely wouldn't tunnel players who they know are skilled. It'll only affect killers who choose to tunnel players they perceive as weaker, which... is what anti-tunnel should do, surely? It should be a deterrent from chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked, and considering we're specifically talking about DS, there's not even any concern about weaponising it for bodyblocking like there is with Endurance.
I said what I said and I keep saying it. It was you who said that I meant that every single hooked survivor was because poor play when I said that, tho. So stop the mental gymnastics.
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: All of that is in play and tunnelling is still a problem. [...] DS being stronger would be a healthy change, because it doesn't do anything unless the killer chooses to tunnel
Here's the snag with your arguments here, though: Survivors use DS as a tool to block the killer and protect other survivors. Make it stronger, and they would use it as a bully tool even more. So, it won't be a healthy change, but the reverse. Also, adding more safe nets to the game would only make play survivor feel more dull, as the game is doing all the heavy lifting for you without the need of developing any game sense, and would make play killer more frustrating as you are going against that survivor's perks and the game mechanics, not their skill. I won't call that precisely "healthy" for anybody.
Also, your "effort put in it" argument is bogus. As I said, with 10 seconds of free haste + endurance + survivors own perks, the effort the killer needs to put to tunnel that survivors is exactly the how difficult that survivor makes for the killer to down him again. The unhooked survivor can get to a pallet or a TL to make another full chase again, other survivor can help him by body blocking the killer and force him to break chase, etc. And if you play killer, you should know that.
Nobody is suggesting that the game should cover for survivors making poor plays in general. [...] Should killers only be punished for tunnelling if the survivor they try to tunnel is more skilled than they are?
Yes you are, when again, there is plenty of second chances and safe nets for survivors and you want yet another one when he goes down after using all the others.
And at this point, with all the second chances you have even before getting to the point of getting tunneled being a possibility, yes. Not that they aren't already punished in all cases by, again, making it more costly chasing the unhooked survivor than the unhooker, but if the unhooked survivors is not skilled enough to get use of their free gifts or make the dumb decision of staying 4 seconds blocking the killer to use them as a protection hit tool, it is the survivor's fault and can't blame anyone but himself for it. Get unhooked, get the hell out of there as fast as you can to the closest loop, and if the killer has followed you start looping him again. Not have the enough game sense to do that? Get punished for it.
Again, you have failed to justify in any moment why the game should cover for your mistakes. You just keep saying that it should, supporting it with fallacious arguments and trying to shift the argument to another path (the main point of the argument never was if "killers should only be punished against skilled survivors"), but never explained why.
[...] and the killer being free to tunnel them out because the current anti-tunnel implementation is flawed and only works for the already-skilled severely cuts down how much they can attempt that practice
Again, why? How if even tunneling is being done in so much games (I play 50/50 right now, and I can count with one hand the times I had being tunneled out of a game) it affects negatively the gain of game sense or skill? Wouldn't be the other way, as survivors being tunneled every game would have more chances to practice against it and get better and better at countering it?
No, because in that situation we're self-selecting for killers that are skilled, they're probably not tunnelling anyway and they definitely wouldn't tunnel players who they know are skilled.
First, you are assuming that every killer that tunnels is not a good killer after accusing me of saying that every survivor that goes down is because they are bad. Funny.
Second, again, DS is not an "anti-tunnel" mechanic, starting with the killer inability to even know a suvivor have the perk. It is a second (third? Maybe forth depending on the build) chance perk in the case the killer tunnel you. So, even if it is stronger, it won't stop people from tunneling. So, by your own logic, there is nothing to change here.
The only reason that it worked as a "deterrent" for tunneling was the same one as DH was a "deterrent" for not hitting a survivor the moment you had the chance: Because it was the most used perk present in almost every game, so you would assume that everybody has it.
Third, like I said earlier, there is survivors that weaponize DS by body blocking the killer and forcing him to break chase or lose more time already, knowing that even if the killer tries to grab them they can get away. In fact, you can argue that most of the people that use the perk this days is for the sole reason of weaponizing it.
So, again, funny that you said that and even funnier that it never happened to you taking in count you claim to be a killer main.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567632#Comment_3567632
Nope, that was you- maybe not in those exact words, but that's exactly what you were referring to in that Ada clip. Poor pathing, poor decisions, poor play.
You're also the only one in this conversation who's been referring to being hooked at all as poor play, which seems suspect to me. Obviously players who are playing well and not making huge mistakes are still going to get hooked eventually, so that very clearly doesn't count as poor play, therefore DS won't be covering for "more" poor play as you put it- just the poor play immediately after it triggers.
You ask who I'm referring to when I say poor play, and I'll again point you to that Ada clip. Is it the end of the world if an anti-tunnel perk means that this specific player, the one you could otherwise count on being easy to down, is a less desirable target immediately after they're unhooked?
I'd argue that if anti-tunnel worked, that's exactly what it should mean. You avoid chasing people immediately after they're unhooked even if they make poor decisions and would otherwise be easy to down. Would you have an issue with that outcome?
Maybe because that Ada was making a poor play and someone used it as an argument to buff DS because it is not effective, when you can clearly see that DS give her another chance and she made the worst decision she could make in that situation and wasted it?
But as you was referring to that clip, let's points some things: First, in that exact situation the killer would follow her still, because two survivors were down and one hooked. Second, with the path she took, again, it would not matter what killer it was, she would go down again soon after. And we also have to take in count that it protects you for 80 seconds after you get unhooked, so you can technically loop the killer for almost an entire gen and still get away from it.
Now, you say that DS should have covered for her poor decision there. So the question is: Why? What is your justification, even when the game already give you 10 seconds of haste and one free hit, when you can have DS + three other perks that can cover your "poor plays" already during the match, including adding more haste and more hits on top of the free ones you have and still going down two times in a row, for DS to keep covering your "poor plays" after all of that.
Because that's my real point, that the game already have enough safe nets for survivors to be asking for another one in the form of a perk buff. So, again, explain why it should be even more another chance than it is when there is plenty of seconds chances already.
And yes, I would have an issue if yet another perk or mechanic cover even more for survivors poor decisions. The basekit BT not only already discourage tunneling by making chasing the unhooked survivors most costly than chasing the unhooker, it is a fair mechanic precisely because is not a guaranteed save for the survivors, it's just give you the chance to get to safety after being unhooked and you still have to make the right calls to get use of it (and even devs said it is how it should be). And spoilers: Using it to make a protection hit is not one of them.
In conclusion: No, the game should not cover for survivors making poor plays and not having the minimum game sense to be good at the game. At least, no more that already does.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567640#Comment_3567640
I can't wait for you to go against Nurse and not get downed a few seconds later after DS. I'm sure you're incredibly skillful and rest of us just suck which is the only reason why we have this opinion and nothing more.
Also nobody is talking about old dead hard right now, off topic. It doesn't relate to DS or tunneling whatsoever. They're not the same thing just because it has the word respect in it.
Anyways. I don't see this leading anywhere since I don't care enough to have an argument against "DS is good" in 2023. Thanks for the discussion.
Funny, because I have to yet see a survivor that at least knows how to loop Nurse and not predrop pallets against a killer that can literally phase through walls.
It was on topic, as like I explained the reason killers "respected" it was because they needed to assume everybody has it, just like we did when DH was in it's prime.
And I'm not saying DS is good, I'm saying it does it's job as an anti tunneling perk as it is and the reasons you all are giving are not valid points to buff it. If you ask me, I would change it so unless used it won't deactivate permanently until the end of the trial, so if the killer doesn't tunnel you in your first hook you should not stay without doing nothing during 80 seconds just to not waste a perk slot. But you guys are not asking for that, what you are asking is to buff in a way that it will cover you for not making the right calls at the right time. Because the Entity know there is not enough of that in the game already.
Have a nice a day.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567627#Comment_3567627
I don't know how long you've been playing but Killers used to respect DS. Its existence alone was enough to discourage tunneling. They would rather slug you and go after someone else, leaving room for another survivor to come pick you up instead of getting stunned for 5 seconds.
Tunneling is very meta right now and Killers couldn't care less you have nerfed DS. Just like back when having no obsession meant nobody brought DS and Killers would deliberately tunnel you out ASAP. It's that meaningless.
DS is garbage, situational at best, period.
Because everybody was using it, the same as how we "respected" DH when it was the most used perk, as you would assume everybody in the match has it. That doesn't means that the perk was designed so the killer "respect" it.
It was designed to give you another chance if the killer tunneled you. And it does its job. If you go down again 5 seconds later because you have so little game sense that you don't realize that if you run in a straight line without losing LOS against a ranged killer he would get you, again, it's on you.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567627#Comment_3567627
I'm not sure I'm following. I have to assume you aren't implying that a survivor being hooked at all means they must necessarily be playing badly, right?
Could you clarify before I answer? I don't want to misinterpret your position.
It was you who said "poor play". Good survivors with good game sense doesn't makes poor plays, and if they do at least they would have the enough experience to know they made the wrong call in what they have done.
Who would you referring when arguing that DS should "cover for your poor plays", then? The looping gods that can loop the killer without any problem and are not affected by any mindgame you can pull off?
Besides, again, there is enough perks and mechanics covering for "poor plays" already in the game. No need for any more.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567599#Comment_3567599
Considering that Decisive Strike only activates in a scenario that we want to be weaker for the killer, wouldn't it make sense to allow it to be strong enough that it'll cover for some degree of poor play on the survivor side?
Otherwise we're basically just saying "git gud" as the solution for tunnelling, and I don't want to assume that's your actual position.
To cover for more poor play, you mean? Because I remember you that for you to even have the chance to use DS, I should have down you two times already.
So, again, you can have more speed and more health states on top of the 10 seconds of both things for free you have on unhook, I down you two times even with all that... and you want for the game to keep covering your bad plays?
When will be the time to say "No, if you still going down is on you, get better" then? When survivors get a 300% speed bonus and two extra Endurances when the killer M1 them? When will be the time for survivors to suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions without the game or their perks covering every single mistake they made for them?
@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567605#Comment_3567605
Yeah. What they say only translates to "Get better" meanwhile DS's only premise is to discourage tunneling which it clearly fails to do so. There shouldn't be a "if" for you to get value from it when it's targeted to do one specific thing only.
It is not to discourage tunneling, as the killer can't know that you have it. It is to give you a chance to avoid get hooked again in the case the killer tunnels you. What you do with that chance, again, is on you.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567596#Comment_3567596
Yes yes... Again it's the survivor's fault and a skill issue and not because DS is total garbage. Ofcourse.🤠
Because if that was a Nurse, Blight, Huntress etc. the same wouldn't happen... Right... Yup.
Running in a straight line without even trying to dodge or look back? Of course it would happen. Hell, she would have being downed again soon after no matter the killer with that pathing.
But again, she had plenty of options there more fitting for the situation that just making it easy for the Deathslinger to down her again. So yes, survivor's fault, and I won't say skill issue but more like lack of game sense.
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I want to see that, because even the average survivor can dodge a hatchet at medium distance. Have he just started running in a straight line...
@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567161#Comment_3567161
But you see, it's a very powerful anti-tunneling perk and it "does it's job" by heavily punishing and disincentivizing the Killer from tunneling. Killers are so afraid of 3 seconds of stun, they don't even tunnel. Also if it doesn't work for you it's a skill issue.🤠/s
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3LE19UNNDZKJ/ezgif-1-997d264d16.gif
... like the Ada in this gif? Because this is the perfect example. The Ada had plenty of options on what to do there. Move behind the wall before running, go to the right and enter the loop in the tile, go behind him... what did she do? Run in a straight line without losing line of sight against a ranged killer.
The only reason you want to buff a perk that does its job and grants you yet another second chance is so it covers for your mistakes even more, so you have to think about what you do even less.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567150#Comment_3567150
"does it's job" lol, everytime I see someone use it they die 5 seconds later it's incredibly weak, i don't think you can argue with that, tunneling is so free atm
You have a free Endurance from the unhooking + free haste + DS + three other slots to fill with more haste and endurance. So if you still die again at that point, it's on you.
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No. If the killer tunnels you DS already does it's job. And enough seconds, third and forth chances already.
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@Rizzo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566482#Comment_3566482
It's a general thing and it's being looked into.
Thanks!
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But it is a general thing that is being fixed, or the ones that are affected need to do something about it?
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
This is not a way to approach this, as consumers it should not on us to do extra work to police illegal play.
You'd have to record all the matches, store and curate all your footage, analyze that match across many interactions with the suspected cheater, edit the file for clarity, for confidently, and size, and then finally for presentation. That is way too much to demand for the community to take you seriously.
The game has an issue with this stuff. Its pretty well know, aside from a few people who scream skill issue. If you are the victim and doubt yourself, just throw a few matches via map offerings and try to recreate the events that you think were suspect. Sometimes, you'll see you were wrong, but often enough you'll reduce possibilities until your left with the player did the impossible(they were cheating). I find this sort of reduction more enjoyable than roleplaying file librarian and pro video game highlight editor. And you also get to better understand various game mechanics.
Just for clarification, you don't have to record all the match. You can use replay programs to record the last minutes of gameplay. If you have an Nvidia graphics card, you can use Geforce Experience (something that probably you should already be using) and configure a keybind to record up to the last 10 minutes of gameplay.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565127#Comment_3565127
And then what ? Let's say i post here 10 videos of cheaters..what happen next ?
You gave visibility to the problem, avoid someone saying that you are claiming there are cheaters in the game because you are high on copium, and maybe making it more public BHVR decide to forget their CU index and start banning more people.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565127#Comment_3565127
I already replied to that - https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565024/#Comment_3565024
And why would i spend extra time doing that? to satisfy a random person that i dont know??
You were the one saying that you can't post videos in the forum. We only tried to help you. If you don't want to do it, it's totally fine.
@drsoontm said:
A month ago I've reported two cheaters (two friends teleporting) with incriminating, documented, time marked videos in the additional report.
The tickets have been marked "solved" but the cheaters have no game ban on their profile.
Somehow, I don't feel like wasting my time on a report anymore.
If you are talking about Steam profile, take in count that one thing is Valve's VAC banning someone, other totally different is BHVR banning a player off their game. The game has it's own anticheat (EAC), with it's own account, meaning that most than probably they would not show as banned in their profile.
Also, you now receive a notification when actions has being taken against the person you reported. They only say the reason and when those actions where made, but at least you know the reporting did something. I received today the 3º one in this week.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557794#Comment_3557794
I started recording it using medal, but im pretty sure that you cant post it here, because of forum rules. I had one banned recently, but the time i need to put into one report holds me from reporting it 5/6 times, its a very "clumsy" report system.
Hide the names with a video editor like I did and AFAIK there should be no problem. If you don't have one, Davinci Resolve is free to use and there is plenty of tutorials in youtube for it.
And yes, I agree that cheater reporting is time consuming and even confusing, as I have seen some devs and mods say that sending video proof is optional, while others said that it is the only reason for reporting where it is needed to open a ticket and send video proof.
But, at the end of the day, if we want to get rid of them it is the only thing we can do at the moment.
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https://imgur.com/a/7KqHm6V
Just a reminder of why we need a replay mode like right now.
Also, has any other killer notice that gens are getting done suspiciously fast lately? It's like there always more than 2 gens with a lot of progress done in them in my games to the point of PR almost doing nothing.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
I've run into a TON of hackers today. Since you have to somehow magically record or run a video 24-7 to report them, I don't bother. I report them to steam and steam actually does Vac ban them.
I know this because I check their profiles. Too bad for them.
If you have an Nvidia graphics card, you can always use Geforce Experience and the record replay functionality to get a video of the last minutes you played. Is how I recorded this one, for example:
https://imgur.com/a/7KqHm6V -
@timetodohottakes said:
That is the most boring killer to play against next to Nemesis.
Always have a long range attack available, you drop a pallet or not it doesn't matter, he hit you no matter what, you vault a window? he hits you, you drop a pallet, he hits you, you bait it, he hits you, he lose his power? goes in a tunnel for 5 seconds and he's back to it.
Why did you bring ANOTHER killer that ignores every single defenses survivors have? pallets and windows aren't safe, and you cannot get distance forever, the turetts cannot take him out of his power unless he miss the hit, so they are ALWAYS useless, he has truly 0 counter play, even if you take him out of it he's back to it in 10 seconds, worthless.
I haven't seen anyone yet that loves to play against xeno, if you do IDC. xeno is the worst addition you ever brought into this game next to Nemesis, we are stuck with it.
Translation:
Why you added another killer that I can not win against by just using WoO and pressing W, BHVR? Not only I have to think on where to place turrets so they take away his power or distract him, I also have to learn the timing to avoid his attack!!!? How dare you to force me to develop a minimum skill to play your game? So boring! And if you don't agree, IDC because I'm right.
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Pointing out that "boring is not a valid argument for balancing" being a "hot take" really shows why the game is in the state it is and the main problem with this community.
Specially when you take in count what the average survivor concept of "boring" is, which usually means "You don't played how I wanted you to, so I wasn't able to win doing whatever I want".
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@ElionTron10 said:
Why is it even in the game? Some people really are slugging for 4k and they not even searching for the other guy they are just camping the guy on the ground its such a waste of time this game is not that serious.
Emblems, challenges, more BP, an extra pip, because the killer simply want to...
What any more reasons do you need? Survivors also don't have to wait at the exit gates or when they find a hatch just because they have the need for the killer to watch them go, but they do it anyway in a per game basis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR0yHhJcKoYFunny that survivors doesn't mind wasting from 2 to 4 minutes in those situations, but the moment they are downed any second spent in the ground makes time wasting a serious problem that BHVR should address (only when Killers does it, tho).
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@ZamasuManzon said:
Plain and simple: one of the things that survs need to do in the match is finding gens. As far as I remember now every perk that let's them see gens has a cost or condition to activate and Maps have charges, but the way Deja Vu is now gives survs a significant advantage.
It's perfectly ok to always see the INITIAL trigen and gain boost on it's gens for the entire match, but having 5% on "all" gens and being able to ALWAYS see 3 gens in the entire match is a bit too much.
And please let's talk about this as adults. I'm bringing my point of view here. Nothing more.
The perk is fine right now, the problem is the base progression itself (after all, all perks and item works in a percentage basis).
It would be a point of discussion if some day (that I hope never comes) they implement their "Anti-3Gen" mechanic. For now, I don't think that changing any progression perk would have a significant impact in gen times for the reason I already said. Example of this: PT nerf.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557182#Comment_3557182
Im not saying cheaters dont exist, its just people are just obviously exaggerating the amount of cheaters they go against in posts like these. Some times even describing a scenario where cheats were most likely not in play but they were outplayed so theyre hoping they were just for an excuse.
And what I'm saying you is that right now, I believe that someone can face 2-3 cheaters in a row, as the number of cheaters caught in camera has being rising from a couple of months ago. Imagine the number of them that are not caught. Not saying that there isn't times when it is pure copium, but how things are right now I see it feasible.
I would like for people to record those things and post it so their claims are more believable and of course to report the cheaters with video evidence, but again, seeing that so many people has notice this increase on cheating I don't think claim like this are far from the truth right now.
