ArthurVeloso
ArthurVeloso
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@Bupkiss said:
Most Survivor perks are crap. What are there, maybe 8 total that players use and dozens that are a complete waste of space. Don't expect DH to stop being meta until a decent replacement is introduced. And remember DH is currently broken and works less than 30% of the time as it should. Think about that, a broken perk with a 30% success rate is still better than most other perks.
My man has spoken facts!!!!!!!
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278682#Comment_3278682
....except you can counter it with perks and game awareness. I get its fun to complain, but its really not the killers fault if you refuse to take advantage of the counters and basic actions to limit its effectiveness.
It is not possible to counter in a solo queue gameplay because you are not able to know the exact moment when the killer is going to down someone. It is different from pain resonance that activates at the end of the animation. Even with aura reading perks, you can't foresee the exact moment when it is going to happen, unless the person tells you. That's the problem. Just try to understand why most part of the dbd community disagrees with you, please.
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@illNicola said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278669#Comment_3278669
Of course you don't understand what I say. Old dh was a #########, unbalanced as ######### and didn't need any skill to be used, now new dh needs skill to be used. 99% of survs perks doesn't need skill to be used and can be abused. Killer perks, instead, have a condition: eruption needs you to down someone to be used, pain resonance same, hex totem can be broken and cannot be reactivated (boon, instead, can be used indefinitely). Now you understand? People run genrush perks because doesn't need skill, to make the game a gen repairing simulator, and cry about gen regression perks. This game was born to be a survival horror, not a ######### repair gen simulator.
Damn, bro. Calm down. That's a videogame, not a brain surgery procedure.
If the game was not a genrush simulator, just remove gen rush and gen regression perks and buff chase perks. Easy. You will be forced to pressure gens without relying on a perk to carry your gameplay.
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278667#Comment_3278667
sounds good. or you can just counter that playstyle which really isnt that hard to do even if solo. you may have to switch out a perk or 2 to do so but the game allows for large styles of playstyles and they have ways to counter them.
tho, im not sure why 2 minutes of tbagging at the exit gates isnt a waste of survivor time but a few seconds of the ability to press m1 while you can still get in chases which is usually whats heralded as the fun part of survivor hurts the game so much(something that a simple perk or two and game awareness can have you avoid a solid amount of the time)
Teabagging does make gens done. Gens are necessary to power the exit gate. Escaping through the exit gate is a win for survivors. That's why 26 seconds without physically doing anything is terrible. Imagine if a killer was unable to attack for 26 seconds? That's basically holding the survivors hostage.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278614#Comment_3278614
75% is still extremely effective. Hard to hear that over the normal game sounds. The one that bugs me is no mither. THAT perk should definitely totally muffle grunts of pain.
No, it is not. I play on console with a headset, and I can very much listen to survivors breathing, groaning, etc. (Really). I play as clown most of the time, and I can hear them near me even with iron will. However, I totally support your argument about buff no middle. It is such a crazy perk.
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@illNicola said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356159/eruption-is-ridiculous
To activate eruption, you have to down someone. So you know, is not that op and doesn't counter at all genrush. But everyone knows how survivors think: when something doesn't make thing easy for them they cry for nerf. Do you want a repair gen simulator or a ######### survival horror game?
Oh, okay! So, what about revert all the 6.1.0 changes? Chases were longer before it. If you want chase adrenaline, let's give to you! Old Dead Hard, Old DS, Old Vaulting Speed Build, More distance after hit, more time to killers clean their weapons. Let's give you the challenge you want.
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278630#Comment_3278630
I thought holding M1 wasnt fun? now you dont have to for 26 seconds. or run aura perks and if solo you can usually tell when someone will go down.
Oh, okay! So, let's buff Decisive Strike to be 26 seconds stun, so we can play the same boring game together!
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277908#Comment_3277908
What you describe is like getting body blocked during endgame from 3 healthy survivors. Which ironically is considered to be totally fine.
Anyway, i think Calm Spirit could use a buff. Preventing the whole cooldown thing alongside the scream.
No, eruption must change to an inferior incapacitated duration. There is no point to literally keep players without doing anything for 26 seconds. While I wait for this effect to runs out, I could literally play some chess. If they don't want survivors to do anything for 26 seconds, just delete survivors from the game. There is no point to make them waste their time like this. What would killers would do if they were stunned by a 26 seconds DS? They would just uninstall the game. Why do you think that such a toxic game mechanic should be a reality against survivors? It should not, it is unhealthy and MUST be changed.
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@Adaez said:
Nurse counterplay is killing yourself on hook then coming here and spam threads about nerfing Nurse.
Maybe one day BHVR will actually you know,listen to the community.
I have no empaty for this killer and I do not wanna play againts her ever,matches are boring and no matter how good you play,it still feels like its not enough for a killer that all she has to do is blink on you then you go down.
...
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278024#Comment_3278024
Discordance. Absolutely banging perk.
That's true, but the fact that you still make noise while injured with Iron Will is the worst. I would use that perk, if I had a 100% Iron Will.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277938#Comment_3277938
You're not doomed if she has BBQ and you ran early enough even if she has Starstruck. Can you make it 15 seconds in a chase without being hit? Probably. If you're running early enough, that's how much time is left on Starstruck by the time she hooks and catches up to you.
Regarding Awakened Awareness, again, there's no reason to be within 24 meters of a pickup. Run away. There's no upside to being that close. Get out of there. Spacing is the #1 concept public match survivors struggle with.
"You're not doomed if she has BBQ and you ran early enough even if she has Starstruck."
- Against a good nurse, yes, you are still in trouble. One of the best kind of perks for a killer like this is aura reading perks. They show the exact location of a survivor, what can be used by a nurse to further teleport to their location in matter of seconds. I used BBQ as an example of this category. Starstruck + Agitation + BBQ + Lethal, Wesker's Aura Reading Perk or any other aura reading perk can be a strong build to go against, specially in indoor maps.
"Can you make it 15 seconds in a chase without being hit? Probably. If you're running early enough, that's how much time is left on Starstruck by the time she hooks and catches up to you."
15 seconds without being hit against nurse? Well, more like not if the player is a good nurse and has double range add-ons.
"Regarding Awakened Awareness, again, there's no reason to be within 24 meters of a pickup."
Yes, there is. Flashlight saves is the reason. Sometimes people are doing gens nearby, other people are booming totems, other people are just unfortunately close to the area.
"Run away. There's no upside to being that close. Get out of there. Spacing is the #1 concept public match survivors struggle with."
Well, sometimes is not about spacing, but about to focus on objectives. Doing gens in a area might be crucial to a possible three gen break strategy.
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@Someissues said:
Its not a bug, its well known he can not be blinded, as well his glasses during his phase
Hmmm... That doesn't seem right from my perspective, but who knows.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277909#Comment_3277909
As a former Nurse main myself who only plays rarely but still pretty much always 4k's... this is pretty solid advice overall ^^
A Nurse player is always looking to learn your playstyle from how you react... so if you do the same thing over and over they will quickly catch on and you will go down.
If you are facing a lot of Nurses I can suggest one of my favourite builds that is really good against Nurse in particular, though it can be really fun for pulling off crazy jukes against any killer and if you get RPD they are going to really struggle. The build is:
Iron Will, Distortion, Lucky Break and you can mix up the last perk with Lightweight, Off the Record or I even like Low Profile lately. Lots of Nurses run Lethal these days so Distortion will deal with that along with letting you know if they have BBQ so you can play around that too. I have taken a hit, run essentially around the Nurse so I am behind where I got hit and started healing within meters of them and if Distortion procs I know they have Nurses and I can crouch until they give up and move on.
Stealth is especially annoying to a Nurse believe me... her base movement speed is so slow she simply cannot waste a lot of time searching (Self Aware is great here) and she will have to move on and leave you to it.
But yeah, try my build and if you are really evil burn an RPD offering and you will see how insanely cheeky you can be with this combo and it definitely helps against Nurse. Though on an open map against one of the tiny few who are actual gods with Nurse... yeah its still gonna be rough
Thank you very much! I will keep that in mind. I hate using stealth builds because I like gen rush builds, but they are inconsistent against nurse because I play solo. Play solo with a gen rush build is kind of tough because I don't know how much time my teammates can spend in a chase or maybe if the nurse has the legion's gen perk (I forgot its name). Thanks! ❤️
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@Jangles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277994#Comment_3277994
Why are you taking everything so personally. People are giving you advice because they don't agree that it's completely hopeless facing a nurse. Why are you taking offense to being told you're not as good as you think you are? It's not offensive. It's reality. Skill is learned in this game, its not a natural thing.
Everything you've done so far is just plug your fingers in your ear, refuse to help yourself and expect it to be fixed for you.
It will happen one day, until then; those are the tools you have to deal with the nurse.
What makes you think that it is not? Saying that other people are bad in this game in an attempt to deceive a real problem in the game that has been highlighted for years seems offensive to me. "Advice"?
@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277880#Comment_3277880
Or they weren’t pro and you’re not as good as you think.
This doesn't seem an advice, but a explicit provocation.
When did I refused to listen? I read your comments and I refuted some of your arguments, and I added new factors to the conversation. No one should be obligated to be a professional gamer to have a normal match against a nurse, that's my point. I recognize the existence of some tactics, but they request a lot of time and effort that most of part of the plays don't have to spend. The management of the game should benefit this segment as such.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277880#Comment_3277880
Or they weren’t pro and you’re not as good as you think.
Hahaha you guys are so fantastically polite and friendly. Your parents would be so proud of such amazing human being they have raised, offending people in a videogame forum. How amazing!
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@Jangles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277967#Comment_3277967
I am like the most biased survivor main out there. Check my comment history lol. You don't have time to learn counterplay and how to play against different killers. Ok, that's not the games fault. If you're not having fun then take a break. Nurse isnt going to be fixed in the next 2 weeks. Her play style has remained basically unchanged in 4 odd years.
I've acknowledged many times that nurse is a problem. Strategy exists. It's not great but its all you have to work with until something is done to fix her. If you're not good enough eventually your MMR will fall to a point where you're being matched with equal skilled killers.
What am I going to get by reading your comment history? I don't have any motivation to do that even more now reading your argumentative comments.
But, yeah, you are right. I will take a break from the game. I wish I could get my money back by doing so, but it is what it is.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Try to last more than 20 seconds in chase, and don't work on gens you just saw the killer kick.
Okay, so just revert all the changes for killers since 6.1.0. and you will see chases more than 20 seconds.
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@Jangles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277956#Comment_3277956
I mean your points are just a skill issue. Sorry. You can easily identify perks. It's a bit more complicated than "just run randomly like u don't know what you are doing." But I put it in a way that is easy to digest.
What you are doing by "just run randomly like u don't know what you are doing." is breaking LOS and forcing the nurse to either blink to the spot you were or prediction blink. Removing one blink charge to gain LOS giving her only one blink to catch you and make the hit. You need to 50/50 between staying on the corner breaking LOS and continuing the loop to create ambiguity from you LOS break.
Junk tiles are your friend. Literally loop a rock or large flat platform and learn blink ranges to short stop the nurse.
Nurse needs work, but this is all you have to deal with it right now. You can either adapt to the strategy or just get stomped continually and make threads about it.
"Skill Issue" you talk as if every single person in this game would have the same amount of time to put in a game like this. Some people, like me, have 2 jobs + full time university + volunteering work. I don't have a lot of time to spend in this game to be a professional "gamer" that wastes most part of their life giving money to a gaming company.
All I want when playing survivor is just to have fun. Playing against nurse, specially during this holiday season was a disgusting experience, and I can't understand why nothing was done until now. Maybe because there are people trying to ignore the problem by just shouting to other plays "get good" rather than being humble and acknowledging the problem.
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@Jangles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277913#Comment_3277913
I mean eruption is an entire beast on its own. Starstruck, run out of the TR and wait. Aura reading perks only activate conditionally and arent permanent. You have to learn to play around them. They last 7s at most. You can use them to bait out bad blinks by counting the aura perks and moving accordingly. Big maps, you split up. Red forest is pretty decent against nurse as there is a ton of high LOS blockers.
I mean they are realistic. I win against good nurses enough. I lose more than I win, but a counter is possible to a degree. Like your point is valid. You just need to play against nurse more tbh, the biggest issue is the counterplay and looping method is basically inverse to the rest of the killers and she has a low pick rate.
I don't believe in your points. Everybody says, "just wait for starstruck", "just learn how to counter aura reading perks", etc. However, how will I know exactly what aura reading perk the killer is bringing to counter? There are aura reading perks for jumping windows (all ears), for long distances (barbecue and chile), both long and close distance (darkness revealed), after picking up a survivor (Wesker's perk forgot the name), after someone unhook (floods of rage), start of the match (lethal pursuer), etc. I can't know the perk she is using unless I get outplayed or caught by it. That's the problem. Additionally, none of the killers in this game gets more benefits from this kind of perk like pro nurses and huntresses. If we have a good nurse with 2 or 3 aura reading perks, she doesn't need slow down perks anyway because nurse can down survivors faster than we can react.
Play against nurse should not be a "just run randomly like u don't know what you are doing." This sounds the most crazy thing in the world because she can just teleport to an intermediate location and catch you there. Like, if you run and make circles, then move to your left, than right, than forward... She can just blind to the central location of you circle of movements and swing making a circle.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277913#Comment_3277913
This is irrelevant to the topic but neither red forest has 8 pallets, they both have plenty.
I meant to say the map with the big tree in the middle. I think it is red forest if I am not mistaken.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277913#Comment_3277913
Every aura reading perk is one less slowdown perk. A big part of playing against Nurse is positioning properly. There's generally not a reason to be in the spots where aura reading will help Nurse in the first place.
Starstruck- Run away. Not being facetious. You shouldn't be anywhere near a downed player against Nurse. Run away. Run to the wall of the map. Get out of her TR and wait it out. There's zero upside in hanging out near a downed player in her terror radius.
Pallets aren't your first line of defense against a Nurse. Any LOS blocker is valid. Even the junk tiles at the edges of the map and trees, rocks, etc. You aren't looping an M1 killer. You're dodging a charged projectile on a short cooldown.
Barbecue and Chile shows aura of people in the other side of the map, unless you are in the 40 meter range, but if she has starstruck, you are doomed.
Starstruck goes away, but nurse can down you easily if she catches you around or if she grabs the survivor near you. Not forgetting the new Wesker's perk that show aura of people with 24 meters while carrying a survivor. There are a lot of perk combinations to make her power stronger, to give small room for mistakes, to make a game impossible to play for the sake of a niche group of players that play this overpowered killer.
You can only play stealth if you make a build around it, but since 6.1.0 perks like Iron Will and Calm Spirit were nerfed to be basically pointless. If the nurse player has a headset, they will be able to hear the grunts of pain of survivors.
Out of record is the closest old Iron Will, but you need to be hooked and only lasts 80 seconds. I wish iron will could be 100% to make a stealth playstyle against nurse viable. I really don't care of the Out of Record effect because I use it for endurance.
I don't use pallets against nurse, but some maps are so open that they are the only resource. For example, the red forest map with a big tree in the middle. That map has only 8 - 10 pallets and 4 jungle gyms + shack. If play distance, I will probably get caught because the nurse might have double range add-ons and I will just realize it later in the match. Also, she can down me, hook me, and teleport to the other side of the map like sonic without a problem.
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I wish I could record my matches on my PS4 to show you guys. I will figure out a way to do it for future reports.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277848#Comment_3277848
Are you sure you didn’t blind him late after he’d already had a chance to move?
I swear! I could blind him before 6.4.0. literally! It was hard to get it because I did not know the timing very well, so I would miss many times.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
Cry while you slowly eat apples in a desperate bid to ward the teleporting medical professional away.
......
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@Jangles said:
The biggest counterplay is being as random as possible. If you don't know what you're doing how can the nurse know?
Break LOS and go in a random direction. If there is no high structure, run edge map or comp corner to squeeze as much juice out of your chase as you possibly can. Rocks and random boxes are your friend. Run to a high rock, break LOS and run around it entirely. Most times they miss.
Gen efficiency is the biggest counter to nurse. Don't stack gens. Always be doing something on your own. Force her to the empty side of the map. Don't be afraid to get hooked. A big issue in solo queue is players who think they are good for not getting hooked. No, you've essentially lost our pressure because one person is going to be taking those hook states for you ergo knocking someone out of the game faster. If you lose someone before 3 gens are done it's gg.
That being said, she could really benefit from some balance passing.
What about if the nurse has aura reading perks?
What about if the nurse has starstruck?
What about if the nurse was double range or double recovering add-ons?
What about if the map is red forest? (The 8 pallets map)
What about if the nurse has eruption?
That's my point. Even though these strategies that you point out make sense, they are not realistic when we are playing against these kind of players.
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@Tsulan said:
Calm Spirit helps with the scream. So at least you don´t get detected while dwingling your thumbs.
It is not the scream, it is the 26 second without doing anything. I could play chess with a computer while I wait for this perk effect goes out.
Killers complained about 5 second DS, but what about the 26 seconds Eruption? If a killer could be stunned or denied to attack for 26 seconds, they would be upset too.
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@Ricardo170373 said:
what i supposed to do anything about this perk ? Im playing solo and i never can do nothing against this perk
It is a bad perk that destroys solo queue players because there is no counterplay unless you are in well-communicated SWF. The fact that BHVR did not address this matter is the biggest middle finger to the community. They should be more humble and listen to the people who pay for their products.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277880#Comment_3277880
If you have a VOD I can give pointers if you're actually looking for coaching. But most of the time I write up advice on Nurse counterplay and I'm met with "lol no I'm already doing that". Easier to have a VOD to work with to point out specific things.
If you could do that, please, add this here. The more knowledge we have, better. If there is a real strategy to counter nurse without need to rely on full stealth build, please, make a video with some, and let's spread the word. Otherwise, people will keep asking for a well-deserved nerf for her.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Chances are you aren't facing a pro level Nurse. There aren't even 100 of them out there in each region. And ideally, you're only matched up against one if you and your teammate's MMR matches. But matchmaking doesn't want anyone waiting longer 5 seconds for a match, match quality be damned, so who knows.
Not answered my question. I am playing in the U.S. and I today I faced 6 nurses during my playtime. All of them were very precise with their blinks and I had any chance even with my dead hard.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
You can't blind Wesker after a Virulent Bound grab because there'd be no counterplay if you could. The killer would have no opportunity to avoid the blind after downing the survivor with their bound. It's always been like that even before they introduced the locker save immunity. It's intended.
I did it before 6.4.0. so, yes, you could.
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@dgbug said:
yeah.
this game's balanced. shocker, right?
think on that for a bit.
- your favorite least favorite killer main, dgbug.
This game is not balanced even in another universe. You must be playing Minecraft because an infinite tier 3 Myers + 2 range nurse + purple ring Bligh are some but not balanced.
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@AnnoyingNarrator said:
Just to be clear, I am not talking about the Nurse or Blight. The nurse in particular is way too strong.
Rather, I want to focus on how the average non S-tier killer is currently like and how it needs some tweaks.
Actual Power vs Feeling Powerful
The first thing that needs to be addressed is the difference between feeling powerful and having actual power. You can feel powerful but lack any actual power, and you can feel powerless but actually have plenty of it.
For example, Nemesis feels powerful to play. You punch survivors, break pallets instantly, and even have minons to do your bidding. However, Nemesis is actually quite weaker than his initial appearance. He is not bad, but he feels way stronger than he actually is.
On the other hand, the camping m1 killer is basically the opposite. You feel increably weak, having to just look at someone instead of chasing and actually doing something. You are also doing one of the hardest to counter things in the game.
You can win a game but feel terrible, or lose a game but feel amazing. It all ties back to the idea of feeling like you are powerful in the killer role.
The Problem
Survivors have a weird problem, one that completely hamstrings their side; communication. Anyone who played Solo Q can usually recount a time where one person poor decision led to the entire team dying. For me, the worst is when you know something that the other person doesn't, a real classic horror experience. "Don't go for the save Dwight! He has Lightborn!" or something along those lines.
If you give them perfect communication, god help the killer. The sheer amount of stuff that survivors are communicating can throw at you is just straight up stupid. If you have the audacity not playing a top killer or your main, prepare for a painful game. Body blocking, lighting fast healing, and always having your location known are just some of the 'fun' things that killers can look forward to.
In other words, survivors are either blind or all seeing, weak or all-powerful.
We also have some perks, with a particular perk being a constant nightmare for killers even after its rework. Dead Hard. This perk is such a terrible idea in a game like DBD. While it is better than its old version, it still creates another 'fun' feature of the game, the DH cliff. The DH cliff is what separates the high tiers from the mid tiers, the wheat from chaff. A killer that can deal with DH will be significantly better by a large margin than one that can't.
If you wonder why you only see certain killers, this is a key party of that. Why would play a killer when a hard-won hit is lost because they pressed E? This is made worse by how easy it is to cheat with dead hard, automating the process of pressing e for you. While there are other perks like it, those tend to require communication which loops back around to the first problem.
How do we make Killers feel powerful?
Non-Hook Grabs
Grabs are terrible in this game. It feels like grabs more often lead to a missed hit than a successful grab which so, so very stupid. The reason fixing grabs would be a good first step is that while grabs don't happen often, they feel so dang good to pull off. Even if the survivor is already injured, nothing makes you feel more an unstoppable force than grabbing someone by the throat.
By contrast, hook grabs are a terrible game of chicken that involves both sides waiting for the other to press m1. I don't think I need to explain why this is stupid.
Shoving Survivors
Body blocking is a weird thing that I dislike heavily. While I think body blocking when a killer is carrying someone is fine, the fact that my slasher who can break a heavy wood pallet in seconds can shove a small Korean girl aside is dumb.
My solution is to let killers shove survivors. Get too close? Get out of the way. It could still slow down the killer, but I think that the satisfaction of shoving a survivor to the side would more than make up for a few seconds of chasing.
Shortcuts
DBD is a game that can be a little to predictable at times. If you are in a corner of the map and your teammate is being chased by the killer on the other side of the map. To counter this strength of communication, my idea would be a series of shortcuts that a killer can take to change their position away from the seeing eyes of the survivor. This idea would have to be map specific and require a bunch of testing, but I do think that it opens up more room for making maps that are fun for both sides.
Where are all the buffs?
Have you ever heard the tale of the Twins? It is a story that BHVR is unlikely to tell you. Once upon a time, there was a killer that was one from two, a bond between from siblings that was turned into a weapon. They were unstoppable, powerful, and not fun. Despite being capable of winning games with ease, they did so in a way that was slow and boring, prone to endless slugging and camping.
Slowly but steadily, the twins were chipped away at. It may have been their addons, a new perk, or even a new bug, but in time the once powerful twins were brought to a pathetic state, being easily defeated by even a team of uncoordinated Solo Q players. But legend says that if you head out to the French Countryside, you can hear a whisper in the wind...
buff toy sowrd plz
In all seriousness, the reason why I tried to avoid buffs is because killers are in a pretty good state when it comes to balance, just not feel. Outside of a certain medical assistant and a Scottish man with a ring, most killers don't need a buff in numbers, but more so QoL. The Twins are the best example of this, they aren't weak, but you would not know that by playing them. The Twins feel awful to play even if you are dominating with them.
Also, I don't want to screw over survivors. As much as I hate them as a killer main, I also would like to have the bloodpoint bonus for once. Therefore, it makes sense for me to make playing survivor actually fun. The removal of hook grabs is a worthy sacrifice for blood points.
In conclusion, give Nemesis his rocket launcher, each member of the legion an AK, and Dredge the pool inflatable cosmetic. I am not sure how the last one helps, but I am sure it will improve the game.
Just delete survivors from the game. That's it!
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@Hannacia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3231998#Comment_3231998
There is a great anti tunnel build that a lot of competitive survivors use nowdays. Off the record. DS and DH together will allow you to escape most situations.
As per my last messages, it must not be necessary to make a whole build just to make DS useful. That perk should work for itself since it is an anti-tunneling perk that was designed to servery punishing a unfair playstyle.
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@FlameGNG said:
So i've played dbd since 2017 and ive taken a little break every now and then (after legion got released for obvious reasons :p) and now. I dont enjoy the game anymore killers have been so hard buffed that every match is a loss if you play soloQ. Teammates run the killer for 10 max 20 sec and DC or just suicides on hook its unplayable unless ur a 3 or 4 man swf or sometimes on rare occasions when you do get decent teammates. Almost half my matches are DCs or suicides on first hook. + There are also a sh*t ton of camping and tunneling like before but whatever :P
Do you guys find the game more enjoyable now or did you like it more a few years earlier? (both killer and survivor)
No. But the developers don't care, unless it affects their pockets. So, nothing will change until killers get bored of try harding against solos, and solo queue survivors quitting the game.
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@FlameGNG said:
So i've played dbd since 2017 and ive taken a little break every now and then (after legion got released for obvious reasons :p) and now. I dont enjoy the game anymore killers have been so hard buffed that every match is a loss if you play soloQ. Teammates run the killer for 10 max 20 sec and DC or just suicides on hook its unplayable unless ur a 3 or 4 man swf or sometimes on rare occasions when you do get decent teammates. Almost half my matches are DCs or suicides on first hook. + There are also a sh*t ton of camping and tunneling like before but whatever :P
Do you guys find the game more enjoyable now or did you like it more a few years earlier? (both killer and survivor)
No, I stopped playing this game regularly because I know that if I play survivor in solo queue, I will have to die 4 to 6 matches before getting an escape. Even though I am pretty decent with chases, I can run the killer forever, and sometimes I get camped or tunneled out of the hook. Anyway, I miss the old DS, that made killers scared to even think about tunneling. Now, it is more rewarding than punishing. BHVR, DO SOMETHING!!!
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@fake said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232030#Comment_3232030
Thanks for your reply.
Sorry for the back and forth because of my poor English, but there is one more thing I am sure of.
No matter what countermeasures are taken against tunneling, tunneling itself will never go away.
It is true, as you say, that a survivor's chances are greatly reduced when tunneling takes place early in the game. (Killers know this and will do it, as long as they understand that they will be at a disadvantage if they continue to keep 4 people alive.)
Therefore, I think it would be nice to have some adjustments that would allow other survivors to still have a chance when early game tunneling takes place. Such as adjusting DS as discussed in this discussion.
So let's say that actually happens. Even if many countermeasures to tunneling were put in place, the fact itself that 3v1 is better than 4v1 for killers would not change. Therefore, tunneling is done.
And indeed the killer is punished by the countermeasures. To get compensation for being punished, we still tunnel.
Thanks to the resulting larger punishment, the survivor gets 3escape instead of 1kill. Survivor wins.
But the tunneled survivor will still be frustrated, as he was, is, and will be in the future. Tunneled, inadequate measures. Nerf Tunneling.
This happens because many players see DS, BT and OTR as perks that completely disable tunneling.
In reality, those perks are perks that extend the chase time to allow the survivor as a whole time to repair the generator. The perk works because it serves its purpose of buying time, but when faced with your own death, you will see it all as pointless.
Hard tunneling early in the game is still likely to detract from the game experience for many survivors more than advantage or disadvantage.
I would rather see the solution be to incentivize the killer to take advantage by choosing not to tunnel. Sorry I can't offer anything concrete.
However, I still remain in favor of strengthening DS.
If there is a possibility for both killers and survivors to enjoy it, then it should be done.
I am happy to discuss this with you, even though we disagree.
Hey, you English is really good, don't look down about your skills like that.
When it comes to your perspective of tunneling is never going to end, well, I totally agree with that because some people lose their mind playing Dead By Daylight. They get angry, frustrated; they take everything personally. However, just because it might not end, it does not mean that it should be "legal." I mean, just because people steal money (and it will never end), it does not mean that it should be legal or allowed. That's my main point, if tunneling is an exploitation of the game mechanics to force an easy win early and mid-game (and was punished by DS), it does not mean that it should be free from punishment (rewarding). That's why I advocate for the return of DS because the killers will think twice before doing it.
When it comes to BT, OoR, and DH they don't counter "hard tunneling", as I said here
@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222608#Comment_3222608
Out of Record does not get any closer to being as much practical as Decisive Strike is now. The justification for this relies on the fact that Out of Record is easily counterable by hitting the survivor after he/she gets unhooked. This action denies the survivor the Out of Record value because, in fact, what was consumed by the killer's move was the base-kit borrowed time. Moreover, when the killer does that, it triggers the survivor's deep wound status, making it practically impossible for them to tank another hit with Dead Hard. Additionally, with patch 6.1.0. the killers have 2 Save the Best For Last basekit and survivors' distance from an injury was reduced. The result of this measure is that the distance gained by tunneling conduct was increasingly reduced allowing an easy down for the killer since it became harder to reach a safe zone. For those reasons, Out of Record is not viable to substitute Decisive Strike because there is no substantial punishment for this unfair playstyle. Not forgetting to mention that no one should have to make an entire build around Decisive Strike to make it "work." No one should have to be forced to run DS, Out of Record, Dead Hard, and Unbreakable to counter an unfair playstyle. Logically, if this unsportive conduct was punished severely during a long period of time, why now is this being allowed by the negligence of the Dead by the Daylight Development Team? It does not make sense. it is an evident contradiction, and it should be properly addressed by the sake of the Dead by Daylight Community.
"Out of Record does not get any closer to being as much practical as Decisive Strike is now. The justification for this relies on the fact that Out of Record is easily counterable by hitting the survivor after he/she gets unhooked. This action denies the survivor the Out of Record value because, in fact, what was consumed by the killer's move was the base-kit borrowed time. Moreover, when the killer does that, it triggers the survivor's deep wound status, making it practically impossible for them to tank another hit with Dead Hard."
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232018#Comment_3232018
I never said anything about forcing ds.
Now lets play your game, I go for the unhooker get the down and while I try to hook that person, i get body blocked and they wiggle out and i down the person blocking the hook, pick them up because the other person is gone, and eat a ds.
Am I tunneling? No im not, DS really shouldnt apply here not as an anti tunnel perk anyways.
Instead its being used to avoid the repercussions of an offensive action
If you concerns rely on an unhooked survivor bodyblocking you, you should run Mad Grit. Now, it does not have anything to do with the DS not being an anti-tunnel perk because you knew that the unhooked survivor had his DS active, and, as previously stated in my post
@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222599#Comment_3222599
Ds was used as an anti-tunnel perk because, after the restriction of the conspicuous action, the survivor could not contribute to the game's progress without suffering the penalty of losing the perk's effectiveness. Additionally, I reiterate my statement, No One, absolutely, No One forces you or any killer player to pick up the unhooked survivor. If they are on your way, just hit them, leave them on the ground and proceed to chase the other survivor (the rescuer). The survivor on the ground will not do gens, totens, blessings, chests, healing, etc. He/She is just wasting their time being there, and you or any other play gets to benefit from it. For these reasons, there is no such thing named "Forcing DS" because YOU and the other players have a choice, the choice to slug and not tunnel. Therefore, if you have gotten more than 2 DS in a game, this is on your playstyle that is being counterable by a punishing perk.
"YOU and the other players have a choice, the choice to slug and not tunnel." Also, as I mentioned there, "If they are on your way, just hit them, leave them on the ground and proceed to chase the other survivor (the rescuer). The survivor on the ground will not do gens, totens, blessings, chests, healing, etc. He/She is just wasting their time being there, and you or any other play gets to benefit from it." You, acknowledging the fact that Decisive Strike was potentially active, ignored the risks and proceeded with the pick-up action of a player that has been recently unhooked. Regardless of your intent, you did something that would be considered tunneling, as I stated here
@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3231994#Comment_3231994
Thank you very much for bringing this up to me.
Firstly, tunneling is a problem because it denies the other party a chance of survival by exploiting the opportunity to eliminate a survivor in a timely manner to force pressure on the other players because of the lack of one or more members of the team. Tunneling a player out of the game is a strategy used to eliminate a target making the game a 3 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 / 1 vs 1 in a very short period of time. This conduct, if done in a correct manner, will ensure an unwinnable position for the other team early game or mid-game.
When it comes to your team, of course, teamwork is essential for survival. However, it is necessary to measure it by understanding that tunneling damages a lot of the possibility of the effectiveness of the teamwork because one of your teammates will be dying prematurely. Moreover, your chances to counter it, by body blocking, and getting slugged for the teammate don't stop the killer to go for the unhooked survivor. The reason for that is that now, you (that unhooked the survivor) are injured or down, and the unhooked is easy prey for him. So, as we say in Portuguese: "You are killing two bunnies with one shot." In fact, it will reward the killer if you do that, you won't be doing gens, totems, blessings, chests, etc. So, 2 people are not doing the objectives, which is good for the killer to force pressure based on tunneling that can make the game unwinnable early game or mid-game.
"Tunneling a player out of the game is a strategy used to eliminate a target making the game a 3 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 / 1 vs 1 in a very short period of time. This conduct, if done in a correct manner, will ensure an unwinnable position for the other team early game or mid-game." The action of hooking this survivor would be detrimental to the whole team by eliminating a player prematurely. Additionally, if you don't want to be penalized by DS, just do as I said, slug, don't pick up the unhooked. That person is not going to contribute to anything unless you fall for their obvious bait.
Now, sharing my personal experience, I was a Clown main before the update, and I almost never ate DS because I was skilled enough to down a survivor and proceed to another place and pressure gens with slow down perks like Pop and Eruption. If someone wanted to use this perk aggressively, such as any other perk like head-on / blast mine / flash bang / meddle of men, I would just outplay it by not giving them the attention them wanted. It is more about skill and self-control than anything else.
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@fake said:
Hmmm, I am the weakest player against fair play styles, but I don't really consider tunneling to be a problem because I separate tunneling from the purpose of Survivor as a team. Sorry.
If I die before my 1gen is complete, I will be more upset with my allies for abandoning me and not fixing the generator than I will be with tunneling. Because there is no need to hasten everyone's death without earning a chance to escape because they treated my life politely.
It may seem contradictory, but I want to be matched with an ally who can act unselfishly for the good of the team as a whole.
Therefore, DS needs to be strengthened, but since we have experienced 5 seconds and 3 seconds we should test 4 seconds for a start. If that doesn't work, we will repeat the test in a different way.
Sorry for being so subjective, but this is my opinion.
Thank you very much for bringing this up to me.
Firstly, tunneling is a problem because it denies the other party a chance of survival by exploiting the opportunity to eliminate a survivor in a timely manner to force pressure on the other players because of the lack of one or more members of the team. Tunneling a player out of the game is a strategy used to eliminate a target making the game a 3 vs 1 / 2 vs 1 / 1 vs 1 in a very short period of time. This conduct, if done in a correct manner, will ensure an unwinnable position for the other team early game or mid-game.
When it comes to your team, of course, teamwork is essential for survival. However, it is necessary to measure it by understanding that tunneling damages a lot of the possibility of the effectiveness of the teamwork because one of your teammates will be dying prematurely. Moreover, your chances to counter it, by body blocking, and getting slugged for the teammate don't stop the killer to go for the unhooked survivor. The reason for that is that now, you (that unhooked the survivor) are injured or down, and the unhooked is easy prey for him. So, as we say in Portuguese: "You are killing two bunnies with one shot." In fact, it will reward the killer if you do that, you won't be doing gens, totems, blessings, chests, etc. So, 2 people are not doing the objectives, which is good for the killer to force pressure based on tunneling that can make the game unwinnable early game or mid-game.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222567#Comment_3222567
Gotta disagree before DS wasnt an antitunnell perk it was a weapon.
I cant even begin to count the number of times i got hit with an undeserved DS, between downing and having the unhooker wiggle out with a DS bodyblock or flashlight save, or faking working on a gen, or just not being able to tell which meg was the one that came off the hook.
No the DS nerf was well deserved because the perk was abused. Now it is an anti tunnel perk, if you cant get to a structure off the hook with the basekit borrowed time that is a skill issue and poor planning on where you went down.
Ds was used as an anti-tunnel perk because, after the restriction of the conspicuous action, the survivor could not contribute to the game's progress without suffering the penalty of losing the perk's effectiveness. Additionally, I reiterate my statement, No One, absolutely, No One forces you or any killer player to pick up the unhooked survivor. If they are on your way, just hit them, leave them on the ground and proceed to chase the other survivor (the rescuer). The survivor on the ground will not do gens, totens, blessings, chests, healing, etc. He/She is just wasting their time being there, and you or any other play gets to benefit from it. For these reasons, there is no such thing named "Forcing DS" because YOU and the other players have a choice, the choice to slug and not tunnel. Therefore, if you have gotten more than 2 DS in a game, this is on your playstyle that is being counterable by a punishing perk.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222599#Comment_3222599
No. Now it is a meme perk. Or you can take 2 other perks that make it 3-slot antitunnel perk. Well not even that good version of antitunnel that is...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222608#Comment_3222608
DS does not help against real tunnelers. Those will hit you during your unhook "stun" when you can't move yet - making OTR unusable. OTR helps only against soft tunnelers = not worth bringing to trial.
That's exactly my point, why is it so difficult for the people in this community to understand that tunneling is not countable by the Out of Record, but only for DS?
Out of Record can be easily countable by simply standing still near the hook and hitting the unhooked survivor afterward, denying its "value" since endurance status does not stack. That's it.
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@Hannacia said:
You have Off The Record now. Its just a different type of decisive strike now.
Out of Record does not get any closer to being as much practical as Decisive Strike is now. The justification for this relies on the fact that Out of Record is easily counterable by hitting the survivor after he/she gets unhooked. This action denies the survivor the Out of Record value because, in fact, what was consumed by the killer's move was the base-kit borrowed time. Moreover, when the killer does that, it triggers the survivor's deep wound status, making it practically impossible for them to tank another hit with Dead Hard. Additionally, with patch 6.1.0. the killers have 2 Save the Best For Last basekit and survivors' distance from an injury was reduced. The result of this measure is that the distance gained by tunneling conduct was increasingly reduced allowing an easy down for the killer since it became harder to reach a safe zone. For those reasons, Out of Record is not viable to substitute Decisive Strike because there is no substantial punishment for this unfair playstyle. Not forgetting to mention that no one should have to make an entire build around Decisive Strike to make it "work." No one should have to be forced to run DS, Out of Record, Dead Hard, and Unbreakable to counter an unfair playstyle. Logically, if this unsportive conduct was punished severely during a long period of time, why now is this being allowed by the negligence of the Dead by the Daylight Development Team? It does not make sense. it is an evident contradiction, and it should be properly addressed by the sake of the Dead by Daylight Community.
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@fake said:
Oh, um, let's see, how about a 4-second test?
A 4-second test seems reasonable, but I ensure that it will serve as just a band-aid for the tunneling problem. Tunneling was never too much rewarding as it is at the moment. Furthermore, the 4-second Decisive Strike would not be as effective against killers like Nurse, Blight, Spirit, and range-based killers. Moreover, the solo queue experience is the most affected by this issue because the lack of coordination, communication, and information contributes to allowing an easy tunnel for killers. In fact, if you are not SWF, and you don't have DS (because the perk is unusable at the moment), your chances to get eliminated from the game in less than 1 gen are highly increased; as a matter of this fact, solo players are the most vulnerable players to this unfair playstyle.
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@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222822#Comment_3222822
That's the problem. The chase time was reduced by some killer buffs, and the tools to fight tunnelling were replaced by non-efficient ones. As an example, out-of-record can be easily countable by just immediately hitting the survivor after being unhooked. Do they get distance? yes. Do they stop tunneling? No, because they have a survivor that was already injured and is an easy down and easy elimination target from the game to build up pressure.
There is a video explaining this viewpoint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAHnIisKRGQ -
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222599#Comment_3222599
No. Now it is a meme perk. Or you can take 2 other perks that make it 3-slot antitunnel perk. Well not even that good version of antitunnel that is...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222608#Comment_3222608
DS does not help against real tunnelers. Those will hit you during your unhook "stun" when you can't move yet - making OTR unusable. OTR helps only against soft tunnelers = not worth bringing to trial.
That's the problem. The chase time was reduced by some killer buffs, and the tools to fight tunnelling were replaced by non-efficient ones. As an example, out-of-record can be easily countable by just immediately hitting the survivor after being unhooked. Do they get distance? yes. Do they stop tunneling? No, because they have a survivor that was already injured and is an easy down and easy elimination target from the game to build up pressure.
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@JayDoesGames said:
I actually agree with OP. Its supposed to be an anti tunnel perk but doesnt work as that. It's weird how the stun duration is shorter than you just wiggling free...like what?
EXACTLY!!! Something has to change, DS was just fine as it was before. The perk was used to prevent tunneling and to punish severy a unfair game style that gave a huge advantage for one side (killers). From that perspective, if a survivor got unhooked and straight chased by a killer, the unhooked survivor would 1 vs 1 with a huge disadvantage, being injured and closer to death on hook than anyone else. The elimination of one survivor to pressure the other 3 survivors is the idea behind of tunneling. In support to that, it is a fact that with only 3 survivors remaning with 3 - 5 gens to be done, the game will slow down in a huge way, specially with 10 seconds added to all gens in the match + the overstack of slowdown perks like Call of the Brine + Overcharge + Pain Resonance + Eruption (that makes survivors incapacitated for 25 seconds). As a result, killers can have the control over the match easily, unless they really mess up with something.
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@Boss said:
But what is "near"?
Hey, Boss. What do you think about "near" mean 0.5 - 1 meter distant from the hook?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3222353#Comment_3222353
I'm not sure many people go into a game thinking of killing a survivor as impressive. Winning a hard game by keeping a level head and making the right decisions and plays is impressive. But simply killing one survivor is not really something I would consider impressive. I think the reason killers want the 4k instead of a 3k is because they feel like they had to work for it and now earned their 4 kills. It's a bit like survivors not focusing on getting 1 person out alive but as many as possible. If you simply meant killers trying to win however I can't really follow you. Why would that be a bad thing? Both sides should try to win. It doesn't mean you have to go out of your way and stack everything in your favor but winning is the goal of the game. Also what exactly is a Wesker throw kill? He can't kill survivors by throwing them and he can't down a second survivor by hitting them with another so I genuinely don't know what you mean.
I agree that killing one survivor is not considered a win due to skill. I mean, the whole point in a match as a killer in the DBD is to get 4k, right? Of course, condemn kills are difficult, and we can't exclude the merit to get one, but we must use two weighs and two measures to calculate what is considered skill in these two different scenarios.
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@Seraphor said:
Oh gee, just wait until you see the new mori system, everyone will be doing it then, not just tombstone Myers.
Yeah, the game is going to literally burn in rage with the new update. I am just patiently waiting for that with some popcorn.
