Archol123
Archol123
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670535#Comment_3670535
with 1 bottle, you can't do the yellow -> pink -> direct hit. clown was much better when this add-on had no drawbacks and he could run cheap gin bottle for 6 bottles. that is long gone.
Sure, but isn't it less skillfully to slow a survivor down before going for a trick shot with just one bottle? High risk high reward...
I mean obviously an addon that does the same as it currently does without drawbacks is better than with? That's a weird statement... I don't know how he was at that point though, was that when he still got slowed down when throwing the bottle? I would argue that if that was the case (+yellow bottles didn't exist) then he surely was not better than he currently is. Except for that one busted addon combination that allows for cheap insta downs.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670455#Comment_3670455
That's because his power is better than Clown's. His absolutely oppressive chase power gets him into B, but everything else holds him back.
Clown's strong chase gets him to the top of C, but his everything else holds him back.
See I don't know about that, I haven't fully read that guide yet but I think there are some situation where clown can get a hit and Slinger cannot, they have similar strengths and weaknesses I guess, but I don't think they are too far apart.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670522#Comment_3670522
your suppose still use clown's yellow bottle+pink bottle combo. the only difference is that you have land a high pressure direct hit to get instant down. that is why it is such high-skill cap add-on because there is no margin for error.
the guy usually just slows you down to get an easy direct hit without much skill involved and then just hit you
should you not get punished for being out of position? that is your fault for playing survivor poorly.
Isn't it an even higher skill cap thing to do this with only one bottle? So this argument does not really work.
It is not always possible to reach another tile with the slowdown he has, which makes this addon so annoying to go against. Or when you stay at a tile in a 50 50 situation to not be in the open he can just loop it normally, hit you with the bottle while you vault and get the down? You cannot leave because you won't make it anywhere so you are going to go down eventually... Such situations are rather boring and not always possible to avoid.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670458#Comment_3670458
I liked going against pinky finger. more challenge. clown is too easy to defeat without the add-on. saying it is boring and unfair is opposite of "not that good". for reference, in the ptb, you could use yellow bottles->pink bottle->pink bottle into a direct hit. you can do same on live server but the extra 2 bottles allowed for margin of error.
It is not the opposite of that... Stuff can be boring and not fair and still weak... You can ruin a single players game in that way and still throw the match, which is boring and unfair but still not good for the purpose of winning.
I don't know about that part, that might just be a skill issue on the Clowns side then, have you had a look at that clown guide or the guys gameplay?
I found pinky finger always super boring, because the guy usually just slows you down to get an easy direct hit without much skill involved and then just hit you... I prefer the anti loop playstyle without insta down.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670283#Comment_3670283
Something "Not that good" shouldn't need nerfing.
If it is boring to go against and unfair then it should... It still was super annoying to get majorly slowed down and just bombarded with flasks until one hits you directly... I think that is good enough of a reason to nerf it, but I think they should just rework it, and while they are on it also rework Iri Head...
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670279#Comment_3670279
I mean, that is true, but it's also true of Killers like Deathslinger. He's not bad, by any means, but he lacks map pressure in the highest degree.
I mean sure, but nobody says Slinger would be not higher than C tier ^^
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@LazyClown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3670033#Comment_3670033
I'm referring to high level play, not the lower end, the lower end always loses no matter how you give them. And they also don't care either.
Pinky was not even that good and it was horrid to against. Besides that I have not seen many good players even running that addon, because even before the nerf it was not that good.
Even without it there are many interesting things you can do on clown if you are invested enough, there is apparently an around 200 pages long clown guide out there, otz mentioned it some time ago, that shows how to outplay basically every loop in the game. Which is something not too many killers are potentially able to do.
Did something else but his iri addon get touched? Because if not I would consider this a nice buff, as you shouldn't base a killers strength on a single (iridescent) addon alone anyway.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669940#Comment_3669940
Certainly not a Killer a lot of people would put above C-tier though.
Either top of C or bottom of B tier, at least... Think about it, there is like a 200 something pages clown guide how to outplay basically every single tile in the game, it is kind of insane what you can do when you know how to.
I find the amount of pages ridiculous, but I can't deny that that is a thing not many killers can do.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669712#Comment_3669712
Could be.
Also, as for weaker Killers, I think Clown hit 450 games with a 4K recently
Clown is not that weak tbh... With both bottles in play you can outplay most loops, it just that barely anyone does that and he has bad map pressure and mobility.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669709#Comment_3669709
For the basic game premise of playing alone, yeah, I think it would be ludicrous not to acknowledge that succeeding on killer is infinitely more consistently possible than on survivor. A good killer player basically always wins. A good survivor player in solo queue will regularly die/have 2+ survivors die. Obviously this is because solo queue means you will have mismatched survivor groups, but that just adds to the fact that the matchmaking affects the survivor gameplay so disproportionally much. Including because the detriments of having even just one survivor player be worse than the killer player will regularly outweigh the benefits of having a survivor player be better than the killer player. The liability a weak link can be is so much greater for a survivor group than the ability of a good survivor to "carry", since the killer can exploit a weak link, while being able to more or less ignore a good player.
Whether a decent killer player will more often succeed than a decent 4-player SWF (with and without voice comms) might not be quite as obvious, but then again, I think since meeting good killer players is vastly more common than meeting survivors groups consisting of 4 good players (basically only happens in 4-player SWFs with any regularity, which are rare), my money is still firmly on the killer outperforming. I mean, we know from statistics that the public matchmaking environment has killers performing better on average than survivors, even when exclusively looking at "high MMR" 4-player SWFs.
Again though, I don't think solo queue should be an environment that yields a balanced outcome, it just inherently favours the killer and that's not a bad thing from a gameplay experience perspective either. But the matchmaking could still improve a ton without changing this too drastically. I think the game is still killer-leaning for a lot of the cast even if all 5 players on the server are roughly equally skilled, experienced and "sweaty", as long as the survivors have no coordination or communication (meaning they are not a premade group). And of course, the matchmaking will never be that good anyway.
That fully depends on what you define as a good killer player.. At a certain point it also gets relevant what killer he picked, because technically then certain killers would not be viable anymore, but since this case rarely ever happens all killers are viable in public matchmaking.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669456#Comment_3669456
Pretty sure that means that these "unbeatable SWF's" that people seem to run into every game aren't actually that good.
Also isn't momo still on his 2000+ Blight streak? I'm pretty sure he's been sniped.
Obviously? Like are we just stating stuff that should be basic knowledge by now? Matchmaking is bad, really good players are rare, some killers are weaker than others. 4 really good survivors in one team are reeeeeally rare and so on and so forth.
I don't know, haven't been following that guy? But I guess with Blight nerfs it should be at least a bit harder to keep up against the occasional comp team that tries to ruin the streak?
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669456#Comment_3669456
But this precisely goes to show that succeeding as killer in this game is much more possible than doing so as survivor. Since encountering good opponents is infinitely more common on survivor than on killer, as it basically takes encountering a good 4-player SWF on comms, which is vanishingly rare as compared to just a good killer player playing killer.
My general opinion on these streaks as always is that they most of all show how abysmal the matchmaking is. Even when ignoring top 0.X% tournament players and Nurse/Blight/Spirit all of which are extreme outliers, there's tons of players that go on streaks or have ridiculous winrates on killer. Any even just decent, above-average killer player rarely loses, as evidenced on streams. The MMR "soft" cap as well as the lax matchmaker simply do not yield competitive matches with any consistency, even though there absolutely are players out there that could make some of these people have reasonable winrates. Another major reason is that the game format inherently favours the one over the four in terms of the impact their decisions, skills and "sweatiness" will have on the matches, as any one survivor player can in theory only determine "25%" of their side's performance level. And survivors are by the nature of them being 4 different players much more disconcerted than the killer player, all the more so of course if they are randoms that don't know each other, have no coordination and communication. And even one weak link in terms of skill/loadout/trying to win can spell disaster. This makes the public matchmaking environment extra killer-favoured as its randomness benefits them not only in terms of matchmaking but gameplay as well.
Matchmaking improvements are the first thing I would advocate for, creating more nuanced high MMR brackets and a more strict matchmaking algorithm at least at those upper brackets. An alternative if BHVR is scared that this leads to too much competitiveness could be creating a casual and competitive queue, with differing rulesets that promote casual and competitive play respectively. And then some solo queue improvements could still be in order, albeit without going overboard with it since I'm of the opinion that solo queue should be that uphill battle and retain its unique difficulty, including that to do with some of the randomness it yields in terms of not knowing what other players are using, doing, planning, and so on. It just makes it a different gamemode that is much closer to the "horror"-type gameplay experience, thrown into unknown and uncertain circumstances and having to make do with that, with very rudimentary means of acquiring information and coordination, that chaos and disconcertedness being more tangible. SWF should have loadout restrictions and Nurse/Blight/Spirit/tunnelling should be rebalanced (camping has more or less been "solved" by the removal of hook grabs (although showing all survivors the self-unhook bar of a hooked survivor would still be great), tunnelling however is a major issue still because of how much it exacerbates the "weak link" issue).
As for the part of it being easier to succeed on killer than on survivor, I would not necessarily agree... Because there is a big difference between comp players and average players. And killer and survivor gameplay are also not really comparable, because you are playing with completely different mechanics and tasks in mind... If you have a group of 4 friends on discord your chances to succeed are probably higher than the average killer ones if you are somewhat decent at the game... If you play solo only sure I guess... But as killer you can still lose fairly easily against 4 people that know what they are doing despite not being on comes... I would not generalize stuff like that, as it is way too blurry and not precise.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669363#Comment_3669363
Even 4-man Survivor streaks aren't very long and they aren't restrictive at all.
Even Clown has a higher 4K streak than Survivors have and the Survivors counted 3 escapes as a win.
As I said before, there are far more comp killers just playing killer than full on 4 men comp teams... The odds of meating a comp killer are just higher, therefore the streak ends with a higher probability. However the condition of such a streak ending is the same, if they encounter a comp player or a 4 men comp team, they will have a really rough time.
KNightlight on his 500 + Nurse streak has often said that if a comp team snipes him his streak would just end.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668783#Comment_3668783
Not even close to the amount a killer can the most is like 350 on survivor by the best comp players in the world. Alf is currently on a 1100+ streak.
The point however is that both streaks only end when going against comp players on the other side, however it happens far less often to encounter a full 4 men comp team that wants to end your killer streak because of it being more time consuming and you need four players. It however has the same high potential, it is just that it ends more likely as one comp killer is way easier to get matched with.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668753#Comment_3668753
Face camping doesn't let you get multiple hooks which in turn gives more points.
??? Getting multiple hooks is what gives you more points, what exactly do you mean?
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@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669106#Comment_3669106
I might be thinking of older streaks then, my bad. Still, A killer can end games at almost any point with the right pressure and circumstances, survivors aren't going anywhere without five generators or the DC button. I'd still say it's harder to get streaks with survs than killers.
Especially since, y'know, there's only one player on killer. A swf streak needs four survs who are presumably all gods at the game.
I would not necessarily say harder, but more time consuming in any case.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669094#Comment_3669094
The point is to convince people that it's a good idea. Or in our case a bad one. Make this the bigger fish to everyone, but the ones who you need to convince the most are the devs.
It's only impossible till it happens. He was doing well, everyone but 1 on death hook on pretty sure the disturbed ward.
Wait that's the cantina's name? None of us ever really remembered the name and kept calling it "the cantina". Go figure. We ended up with them with our luck. Granted it's only a coin flip for the talkative ones but the point stands.
I meanmean it is only impossible if the guys knows what he is doing, if he does not know that, then ofc it is possible ^^
Yeah well you learn something new every day ^^ Calling the cantina a hive of scum and villainy has basically become a meme over time.
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The main building window loop can almost be used as an infinite if you pre run early enough, you won't come into chase and the window won't get blocked, you can loop a killer there for minutes... Other than that map is mostly fine, I think the size might be a bit too much as well.
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The middle part of the map is a bit too loaded, so you basically cannot chase there unless you are playing a really strong killer, the rest of the map is rather dry in comparison. However it can be really rng heavy, spawning huge dead zones or the most busted old cowshed stuff. This basically results in only ever holding one side of the map, because the middle is too loaded. So maybe just re distribute the loops across the map.
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Coal tower is probably the most balanced game in the game. Sure the main building can be annoying for weaker killers but other than that the map is just great.
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The main building can spawn a ridiculous window into filler loop setup, other than that the only issue is that the map is rather big.
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The upper floor is super annoying, especially the boon spot, it just costs you way too much time to go up there and it is way too easy to ore run, everything else about the map is alright.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669095#Comment_3669095
Can you show me a recent 50-100 solo queue escape streak video?
The 200 wins was done by the best team in the world, and they had very soft ruleset with 3 people out. Killer winstreak are usually 4K and some even prefere 4K before last gen pops. And 200 wins is for killer not much. Even Pig and Myers streaks close to that number.
Is winstreak telling the full story of ballance? No, that would go to far, but it is an indicator that killer can get wins more consistent.
Current win streak of hens and his friends is around 130 and going, killer requirement is usually nobody escapes through gates after all gens are done... Not 4k.
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@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668846#Comment_3668846
Would you expect there to be in the kind of game DBD is?
To end a killer's streak, a team of survivors need repair five generators and outplay presumably one of the best players in the world, who's probably using the best killers in the game, and is currently sweating enough to make comic con smell nice.
To end a four man survivor streak, the killer needs to pick Bubba and get a down in endgame.
The difference between what's considered a valid survivor streak and valid killer streak are so different that trying to draw genuine balance information off of it is fool's folly. There's a reason why even when survs weren't nerfed that escape streaks weren't very common.
They don't do 4 out streaks though, the win condition is always 3 out. Just because of exactly that situation.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668664#Comment_3668664
Where is the comp survivor or the comp team who does that?
For example Hens and his Friends or eternal this Saturday :)
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669005#Comment_3669005
We're back and have cookies 🍪
Their priorities are why it's shouldn't be focused on now. Remember bigger fish to fry? The devs are choosing what's a big fish or not.
Hey, you didn't want to hear the story, you can rationalize it all you want, but it did happen.
Currently have? Yep. Currently need? Nope. Atleast when we get actual teammates. If a group of randoms can function without, then it's not needed. We can argue about wanted till the moon explodes.
Cause 4 people who know each other can coordinate better than 4 strangers on coms. And again the presumed goal was helping solos.
Wana hear the story of me and a friend getting invited to a group who only spoke Spanish? Or where we 3 invited a person to our group and didn't know what language they spoke? The short of it is, if they're listening, they're going to try and understand, and skipping ahead Abit that leads to confusion.
We don't know what a "mos eisley" cantina is but if it translates to "septic wasteland" then we envy the people you get. Between the 3 of us half the ones who say anything other than "gg" will attempt to shame us, rage at something (us, teammates, killer, perks map, we think we've seen almost everything but the anti 3 gen system currently), call us something very inappropriate (though occasionally creative), wish death upon us (this is mercifully more rare nowadays) or loved ones, wish something horrible on us or loved ones, rage like a child (spamming chat with childish insults) and this is simply the end game chat. And for each of those ones there's been a nice one too. Saying it's a coin flip might technically be inaccurate, but from what we've seen it's accurate enough.
But what is the point then in arguing about what is a good idea? Sure if we take into account what they will or won't do we can just say "Amen" to whatever they come up with in the end.
Not doubting that it did happen, but like I said, if the guy had any clue what he was doing then there is no way unless he majorly messed up...
I cannot believe I found the one person that does not know Star Wars ^^ The Mos Eisles Cantina is largely known as the hive of scum and villainy ^^ So it was just a comparison. I have no clue how you ended up with only such people? I get like 1 every 25-30 games of that kind...
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668825#Comment_3668825
Think your missing a point. Let's say you have 2 projects and a deadline to finish one. The first project is known to be popular, the other is a relatively unknown. You got enough time and energy to finish one or the other, which do you choose? Sure BHVR probably can eventually figure it out, but that's taking the focus off other things so even if they wanted to, it's gonna be a long while and other things will be put on the back burner while that cooks.
And you wish to take some of that manpower they have and turn it towards voice coms and combing the code. They're slow because it's not easy. Hence the point above.
Yes, it was when bubba was recently released. No he wasn't bad. We'll take it as a no story.
We do think it can and from our experience atleast those minor situations don't add to a huge disadvantage. Won't deny its there, but it's not extreme.
Reading the last 2 paragraphs, first is yes, it can work because people can know what to do and when without being told (and have done so). Second and more to the point, if that is the only gap then we'll happily accept that. What we want is to close the gap as much as possible but without chats especially since we've seen more cons than pros. BHVR can add many things that give enough information (icons for who had deliverance, a way for the in-game survivors to call out, things like so) without having someone else explicitly tell you to do something. A small margin of error would exists, and if it's only the small things then acceptable parameters to us. 3rd, it's not fully reliable anyway as there's a few things that make it unreliable (the mute feature, language barriers, and human behavior).
4 ...weren't we supposed to bridge the gap for solos? Lets turn those 4man groups into multiple groups of 4 solo players. Everyone is of equal skill and intelligence. Group 1 using coms and everything is perfect. Group 2 not using coms and everything goes as predicted. Group 3 using coms but language barriers get everyone confused. Group 4 half are muted and 2 are using coms. Group 5 same as group 4 but one of the coms people says something to offend the other and that one changes how they play accordingly. We can keep going but while there are a few more good ones, there's probably one bad one per.
[Apologies if we're raving a bit, might need to cool off.]
That is about priorities a game developer has to set, it has nothing to with whether or not something should be added.
Even when Bubba was not yet reworked he could even 99% his saw forever and still get a trade 100% of the time.
Sure generally they can, but not in every situations, and groups can easily crumble when stuff goes sideways and they are missing information on what is happening.
I mean sure nothing is fully reliable in that but still way more than what you currently have to inform your mate about something.
I don't really see how it matter for the example whether those 4 exact players know each other or not? Unless of course you want to tell me they Morse code stuff to each other with teabagging or have some other weird form of communication.
I don't think the language barrier will confuse people... They should quickly realiser the other person does not understand them, as they are replying in a language that is not theirs and that they don't understand, so I don't think there is any harm in that case.
I don't think there is a 50 50 chance to get a toxic person that does nothing but rage and insult you or a normal human being... Otherwise this community would be the mos eisley cantina...
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@mugi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668670#Comment_3668670
There are settings available to hide player names or disable chat display. I think it would be a good idea to utilize those. Additionally, the likelihood of encountering individuals making inappropriate remarks while we're waiting is low.
It is still a weird thing to punish people for leaving a lobby as there can be good reasons to do so, you are not yet committed to playing the game.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668839#Comment_3668839
Any recent streaks after all the survivor nerfs?
KNightlight will apparently do one starting this Saturday and Hens and his friends are also doing one, just not exactly currently, but it is still up, no clue when it continues... One of the players was sick the last time they wanted to play. I think they are at 130 currently and still going.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668788#Comment_3668788
I think the best team get around 100 wins or so. Right?
No, I think eternal did an escape streak like a year ago, however they brought 1 perk each and no items and got a comp Blight or something with the full setup... So I would much rather take Hens streak with like 230 wins in a row or so? Because they took perks, but no items.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668783#Comment_3668783
Please name one that has a 1000+ streak.
I think WimaTV got more than 500? Hens group got over 200... The first one got annoyed and stopped eventually because they got burned out of doing it.
Take into account that for a 1k killer streak only one person needs to ready up and want to play and can end games in like 2 minutes, however for a 4men escape streak you have a minimal amount of time the match takes unless the killer dcs to do all the gens and such, so not only is it more boring, it also takes more time to plan and win each match.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668759#Comment_3668759
See, convenient doesn't equal easy. It's going to be hard to do, it'll probably break something which then needs more attention, and all that for something that's not strictly needed and where some don't wish it (yes there are some for it we know). If the devs don't think it's a high priority, it's not getting attention. If you get the devs to pay attention then maybe they'll work on it (remember back to yon survey?)
You can disagree as you want, but that's our thoughts on it as we think they should be working on other things. Especially because it's so slow. Why do you think that is?
You'd be surprised how much playing well or smart can close a lot of the gap. And of course we can use it as an argument, you saying we can't don't mean a thing to us. Certain details can't be covered but a majority can. At the very least the ones you gave us can be. You not seeing any issues with that is just another difference in opinion between us. Figure out things or being straight up told things? There's a difference.
We don't disagree on the gap needing closed more. We disagree that adding voice coms is the way to go and have given pros, cons, personal reasons, and logical reasons. Would you like to hear a story of how 4 solos beat a face camping bubba with a key and hatch?
It is still not an argument to say that the solution to a problem is hard to do... Figure it out then, in what job does it work to say oh Boss sorry this is hard I cannot do it, especially when basically any other game managed to do it...
I don't know why they are so slow, especially on such a minor thing like basic options, despite calling it a top priority when they announced they accidentally removed it. Probably lack of manpower or problems with the spaghetti code? Guess since stuff constantly breaks it is really rough to work around it without breaking something again.
That's a weird story? If that went on with a 4 man out then the Bubba is bad, in that scenario you can basically always secure a 2k unless you really mess up. if it happened before the key rework it should be somewhat possible to get a 3 man out because noed didn't came into account by then? Maybe? Don't know unhooking against a facecamping bubba is quite literally impossible without trading.
I don't think it can close the majority and I think a lot of minor situational scenarios still put a huge disadvantage on people without cons, as they add up.
See if we assume that we have two 4 men groups of players, both have equal skill, both have the same knowledge and brain power... One has coms the other one does not. Then there is no notable difference that can be closed by brain or skill as they are the same, however they still have a gap in information and coordination that cannot be closed without additional tools. This is the point of me saying there is a gap that cannot be closed... Sure if you are a good player you can somewhat close the gap between your group of better players compared to the swf with worse players but coms, however if the player skills are equal it does not work.
It is a gap in information and information exchange and as such it cannot be closed by the tools you currently have. I cannot make it simpler than that, there is no agree or disagree on that, it is what it is. If you have players of equal skill they will be at a disadvantage without coms compared to the other team with coms. Sure you can figure out a way to communicate via the 3 actions you can do (point, wink and crouch) but not only does it take some time, it is also unreliable in delivering information. Without coms you have no reliable way to bridge this information gap, and I really don't see a way you could argue otherwise.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668612#Comment_3668612
Thing is we do. Only so many people can focus on so many things. Time and effort on something they don't want to work on vs time and effort on something they do want to work on. Not saying that we know what they do or don't want but that's the logic of it. Regardless of that, your going to tell us it's more work to type in chat and join a discord server than integrating a voice com into this game? No. Flat no. You have a better chance of all the toxicity in every single video game going away than convincing us of that.
Cool, cause most those ones don't need called out and can be solved via caution, thinking, or in the case of who the killer is maybe 30ish seconds unless they camp an area. We want people to use more skill and brains, not less by relying on things and the best way for that is to not have those things to begin with. Add to that how will the wheel work. Does it send a ping with it? Is it only on the hud? We've seen wheels that work nearly as well as coms for practical purposes, just not as "colorful" as voices can be. You also brought up another con for us. People spamming the wheel, which if was coms would be people screaming "help me" over and over which would probably lead to more mutes which then comes full circle.
It is more convenient for the survivors to just talk instead of inviting people to discord ofc. You cannot really weight the amount of time and resources it costs the devs to do something compared to a player having to do something, otherwise quality of life changes would never be a thing...
I have to fully disagree on that, the developers time is never an argument to say something should not be implemented, even if it is a Dec team working so slow that it took them years to give re-introduce the option to disable anti aliasing...
People using their brain and skill does not close the gap between solo and swf though... You cannot use this as an argument, as you are basically negating the need to close the gap by saying so. Giving survivors communications makes it easier for them to coordinate and share information, sure they don't need to pay attention as closely anymore because the team can share stuff, I don't see an issue with that whatsoever. If you want to close that gap then it is basically your goal that you can rely on your team more to figure stuff out about what is happening in the match.
However if you disagree on a fundamental level why that gap needs to be closed and why this is not a bad thing to do, then I don't really see a point in continuing to argue about it. You can be the best player in the world, but if the game limits what information you can share with your teammates you will still be at a disadvantage compared to players who are not limited in that way, and that is just a gap that cannot be closed without giving both the same tools to work with, some things just cannot be evened out no matter how skilled you are.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668643#Comment_3668643
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668609#Comment_3668609
Hunter Category gives you blood points for hunting down your opponent so if you tunnel them out you get points easier for it.take away the points from this if they tunnel the person out and some killers that care about blood points will stop tunneling.
But this also applies if you chase someone else? This does not benefit tunneling in any way? Also when face camping was still happening more often the killer would walk out of a match with sometimes less than 10 K BP and it still didn't matter, so your point is off regardless... BP are not incentivising players to not tunnel camp or slug.
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668706#Comment_3668706
Picking comp players beating up solo queue with the 2 killers (Blight/Nurse) out of a 34 Killer roster who can consistently do this is not the best take
I wouldn't say it is limited to only these two, but sure it is most likely not possible with any killer. However I think One Pump Willie did over 100 wins in a row as Myers if I remember correctly?
As for the killer choice I just think that it needs to be a killer that is strong and able to display the skill difference... Like you can be the best player in the world and you are still not able to do this on Freddy just because of his limitations... The character is unable to match up to how good the player is. I guess it should be possible on the top 10 killers.
Well regardless of that, the point stays, if you as a normal player get matched against a comp player you cannot really expect to win, technically the killer should not even matter because of the skill difference. Imagine how unbalanced the game would be otherwise if you had a reasonable chance to do so... I mean you are not thinking you could outrun Usain Bolt, win against Serral in Starcraft 2 or win against Magnus Carlson in chess either, do you? Or to say it in another way, some killers in this game are so bad that even with that massive difference in skill you still cannot consistently win as much as you should if it was balanced. (as a comp player that is...)
And to be clear about that, I'm not saying every killer should be as strong as Nurse or Blight, but I think every killer should be strong enough to win consistently against the survivors if you are (that much) better than them. Obviously not if both sides are equally skilled, but with a massive gap in skill of course it should be one sided.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668692#Comment_3668692
Do I need to explain that if this game had a functioning MMR system that a 100 game win streak would be practically impossible unless you're the top ranked player in the world?
Recent comment I read on Reddit
"In October, I tracked my games on my main, the Singularity. Out of 291 games played that month, I won 287, I lost 2 and I tied 2. So, with the "old MMR", I had a 98.6% winrate.
In November so far, I played 178 games. I won 173 times, lost 3 times and tied twice. This means a winrate of 97.1%.
So, yes, my winrate lowered, and this will probably be harmful if I want to reach my personal best of 153 wins in a row again."
It's absolutely outrageous that this is even possible in a game that's supposed to have a functioning MMR system.
Fair, but it obviously does not have a functioning mmr system? But isn't that something everybody should know by now? No offense but I really don't see another reasonable explanation for such streaks...
The issue however is how do you fix it? There are obviously not enough players to queue against on the same level... So either players just cannot play anymore at a certain point because they don't find matches or this just keeps going... And since this would also impact streamers as free advertisers I don't believe that this will change too much.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
As a former Nurse main, I must say that seeing certain streamers (who I have nothing against btw) going on 1000+ win streaks confirms to me that this character is still broken, as 1000 wins should not be possible.
That being said, the people I see with massive win streaks are also running the sweatiest perks and addons and I don't really see no addon streaks that last long.
Overall I think streaks are unhealthy for DBD in general and I would like to see this kind of thing discouraged
Knighlight has a 500+ no addon no perk streak on Nurse... However I would say it is not so much an issue with Nurse as it is an issue with matchmaking not working properly, as I explained earlier.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668670#Comment_3668670
If you see that you report them. Let's be real, nobody is dodging lobbies because they didn't like another person's name. They're doing it because they think it looks challenging and want an easier lobby.
That is really petty to report someone over something you cannot even clarify as to why it happened... No, that's just a horrible idea...
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@sinkra said:
If someone enters a lobby and leaves (either killer or survivor) put a time limit on when they can queue up again. It could be 2 min or 5 min. Maybe stacking. It cannot be that players can instantly get into a new lobby they prefer.
How about no? What if you encounter people with racist names or typing such atrocities in chat, and now the guy that does not want to play with them has to get a penalty? How would you make an excuse for people that dodge with good reason?
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@sinkra said:
I have never encountered any other pvp game where it's possible for even the best players to win hundreds of games in a row. There are killers going on these win streaks even while using no addons or perks.
Mostly a matchmaking issue... Comp players playing against regular people will result in such things... The same thing would happen if some Korean pro sc2 player or Serral plays against your regular plat player... You could play 10k matches and you would most likely lose every single one of them...
The issue is just that there are not enough equally skilled people queuing for survivor at the same time they could matched with... Besides that since comp players usually don't play survivor in pubs they won't get matched even if they are queuing at the same time, as they mostly play customs they most likely don't have the same ridiculously high mmr as a comp killer who just won 300+ games in a row.
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@NotJared said:
Hex: Ruin was nerfed to deactivate upon a survivor dying because Ruin made tunneling survivors out even stronger, because then there are even less survivors available to cleanse totems, and anyone looking for totems cannot progress the game.
This makes Killers who are able to defend totems incredibly strong once one person is tunneled out.
I've been getting a bunch of games since the re-buff where Killers just tunnel someone out then hold a 3 gen around their Hex: Ruin.
The new anti 3-gen allows Killers to hold 3 generators in close proximity to each other and continue regressing them by holding generators next to Hex: Ruin, denying the totem from being cleansed.
This match just took 40 minutes because the Skull Merchant decided to 3-gen next to her Hex: Ruin and we couldn't do anything about it because it was so close to the generators she was patrolling; after she tunneled one of us out, we couldn't touch anything without being harassed by her, and if she ever left too long she would return to protect her totem. About 40 minutes in she got bored and left the patrol, at which point we were finally able to cleanse it (but only because she gave up the totem), but at this point it's already been way too long.
Please re-enable Hex: Ruin cleansing itself on a player death. This was a necessary stipulation to prevent miserably drawn-out matches, and now that it's back and the anti-3-gen-system doesn't prevent it from affecting generators this playstyle is starting to rear its ugly head again.
It was never a question of the perk's strength, but the perk's healthiness for gameplay.
No offense but not every game will have a 3 Gen around a totem... And if it does that is more of an issue with the map than with Hex ruin.
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@Hexling said:
If a killer can get double blood points for tunneling they will. Survivor and killer BPS should not stack. Either stop the cross BPS or make it where the killer loses points when tunneling.
Show me the tunneling score event please... And don't you dare giving me Pic of Demos traverse the upside down or Aliens tunnels ^^
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@TheArbiter said:
Seeing as BHVR clearly wants to diminish Pig's slowdown and buff her anti loop instead, how would people feel about removing her roar?
Pigs slowdown is exactly the same, the only thing changed is her lethality... It takes exactly the same amount of time to get rid of a hat...
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668303#Comment_3668303
...thinkin you literally just skipped over each reply saying how much work it would be to implement for BHVR. Or are just trying to troll us at this point. We cant tell...in the spirit of thinking you just skipped it, no it would be harder overall for BHVR to implement a com system. Is it more convenient for the players? sure. Easier is flat out wrong, especially if its only Discord taken into account. Your gonna need to tell us which "things you cannot play around without coms or some other form of information exchange" your referring to as most meaningful things have either been addressed in our mind. Keep in mind what we think as necessary is unlikely to be the same as yours.
We'll acknowledge which pallets have been used and certain perks the killer uses but you can defiantly warn survivors about gens with a wheel (we've done it without one). We do not as depending on how the wheel works, it can indeed work just as well as coms, for better or worse. All it would take is a smidgen more thought than a com.
indeed
Coms would take lota skill and intelligence outta the game wouldn't it? Now that we're thinkin about it...
I don't think time and for the devs is a valid argument, simply because balancing the game costs always time and effort, same as introducing new things to it, however that is basically their job and if we took that into account we could always deny things just because of that.
That's the thing let's say an ordinary chat wheel has like 10-15 different callous, therefore you are very limited in what you can and cannot put on it... Take a hit please, I go unhook, I don't go unhook, beware 3 Gen and what not so all rather general statements, but as soon as it becomes more specific the system lacks... Calling out perks, or where the killer has trapped something for example. Especially killer specific callouts are probably impossible due to the nature of the chat wheel.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668084#Comment_3668084
Yes, much better thank you. To see what the community wants we need to start somewhere and here is a pretty good spot. Start here, attract attention, branch out. Least that way the devs will atleast attempt to see more than the forum. Should it turn out that a majority wish for voice coms go for it, but we wish to see something more meaningful than handful of comments. If a majority wish it, then go for it, we'll go along and try it but will also say "I told you so" faster than an angel says "amen". As an aside, we're (or rather one of us is) relatively sure that one of their feedback surveys asked about a voice com at one point. We'll try to see if we can dig it out later, if we can't then ohh well it doesn't exist.
Most effectively do have the same tools though. We won't say everyone cause we don't know everyone, but most can access some form of chatroom outside the game should they really wish. We admittedly think we might be sounding insensitive so apologies to anyone reading this that we've offended. The "clearer tools" argument falls flat for us. When we joined we didn't have most the tools currently here. Sure we had some broken things but we had to get good to use them effectively. What we see now, with tools we'd have loved back then, is players playing poorer. People need to adapt to the tools given and learn to use them, but that's on us for thinking so. Back more to the point, as you said the devs can rebalance around it but that's also more work going into making voice coms work than other things or something simpler like said chat wheel which would overall be easier to integrate.
Another aside, currently the only thing that voice coms bridges (that we can think of) who and is where the killer is, where specific totems are, calling where your general location is, and quickly coordinating in pregame lobby and in game. We absolutely detest that first one for personal reasons but it's a valid point for who it is, the where can be solved with the wheel depending on how it works. The second one can also be solved with a wheel depending on how it works. Third valid but same as the first. The fourth is half valid. The pregame lobby has a chat at the start for coordination but nothing in game, yet it can also be solved via wheel.
Again, to each their own for fun. For an example of "interacting with your teammates in voice chat or text chat can also be a fun experience..." We look towards everyone's common point of reference TCM. For our experience, we'll happily admit it was ok for the first 3 or so days... guess what happened after. We don't deny it can be a good time [it's even one of the listed pros] but it can also be flipped [also on the con list] and we're tired of flipping coins.
I mean sure everyone can try to type in chat and send a discord link for the others to join, but that is way to inconvenient to be reliable, it is far easier if it is just implemented. Some stuff falls indeed under the category skill issue, but not all and there are just some things you cannot play around without coms or some other form of information exchange.
Oh there is so much more stuff you can communicate via voice that is not possible with a chat wheel or different tool... When you are about to get 3 genned, which pallets have been used, certain perks the killer uses, and so on and so forth, I could come up with dozens of things, I will say that many are quite situational but not really rare if you know what I mean.
Well sometimes you just get unlucky with the teammates I guess ^^
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667932#Comment_3667932
We've seen people say one thing and mean something different. Hell there's a post in general chat that exemplifies this. Nothing is obvious here which is why we usually ask for details (admittedly we did fail in this instance). We're assuming you're saying ignoring is different from listening which is different from doing correct? (Your wording is odd here to us) Cause at this point we think we lost something in communication here as to where this pops up so we'd like clarification before we say something smart or stupid.
The mute function leads again back to the points and the fact alot of people are going to use mute to the point of "why did we bother?". We went over that. And that's more work for them, which atleast deters some in the "not worth the effort".
Kinda does as thing in game are balanced (or attempted to be) around the things in game. Think kindred was balanced with discord in mind? Or the Scourge hooks? Maps? We might be missing something, but as far as we've glanced we don't know something that's balanced with outside cons in mind. Then if we go the extreme route, cheaters have an advantage from outside by using whatever to do what they do. Doesn't matter though.
Cause we don't take the game seriously. We enjoy having actual fun and we find it here. But to each their own.
The difference is that if this feature got added the whole player base has access to it and can decide whether or not to use it, however we in this post or in the forum are only a small part of the player base, so to be sure what exactly the community wants BHVR would need to get the opinion of the entire community and not just the forum users. I was refering to everyone in the game that might want such a feature and not just people on the forums by saying you should not ignore your community. However if it is just a small part of the community, like a few people on the forums then you could that, even though I would prefer it if they made surveys more often about what features the community wants and what is actually possible or not, depending on the limitations of the game.
Just because you are listening to your community and perhaps asking them things does not mean you will go all the way yes. But my point went more for the numbers in the sense of the amount of people... Like community as a whole > forum users in total > English speaking forum users > people in this thread.
I hope that made it more clear? Otherwise just tell me and I will try again :)
Sure technically that's a way to see it... But just because it is outside of the game does not make it not exist or disappear... Like there is this saying in the jurisdiction "It cannot exist if it isn't allowed", maybe works better in my native language but what it means is that just because something is forbidden does not mean it will not happen and we need to take that into account, using discord is not even forbidden. The point however is that it is obviously a thing that is happening and just because we don't have it inside of the game does not mean we can ignore it or not take it into account... Based on this everyone should have the same tools. I wouldn't bring cheaters into the comparison, as that is explicitly forbidden, however voice coms a thing that is allowed and therefore needs to be taken into account, because everything else is just closing your eyes in front of reality... Playing ostrich to say: If I cannot see it, it is not there. I think it would bring many advantages because you would have a clearer set of tools everyone has and you can balance around that: adjust maps, perks, killers and what not and you would not have things anymore that just by design put a disadvantage on solo players who don't have access to voice coms.
I mean that's fair but fun is subjective, and interacting with your teammates in voice chat or text chat can be also a fun experience... Sitting in front of a motor and holding m1 for 5 min is not really fun...
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667878#Comment_3667878
And yet was it not you who wished for people to not be ignored? Was it not you making an argument for those few who wanted whom we don't know about? The ones who we'd have to acknowledge instead of maybe the 5 same people we see? Adding to that the one on the forum would be a good start to get the BHVR to start and get the ball rolling. The forum users are more likely to be the ones to stay playing longer and BHVR does look here. And last you never specified anything about having BHVR doing it till just now.
And yet it's the devs making decisions. Unless you get hired and do the changes you want yourself, the devs are making the rules for this playground. Personally, we feel restriction in the amount of toxic chat is a good thing. We got tired of impotent threats every 5th survivor made to someone. Not even at us, to whatever their ire was at.
1 because of the aforementioned cons. 2 and this is admittedly a personal reason, is because even with all the info at their fingers people can still be dumb so we'd rather them get the bare minimum of what they "need" and avoid as many cons as we can. 3 because currently coms are outside the game. It's like adding cards to a deck from outside. It does give an advantage but it's from an outside source.
We still have immersion during good games. We do admit that people are trying REALLY damn hard to kill that though.
When I said "they would need to do a survey" I thought it to be fairly obvious, especially since I called it survey which is the term BHVR uses and not poll what it is called on the forums for example. And also in the post before you talked about BHVR as "them" so to me it was fairly obvious they were meant... But sure I guess I could have been more explicit. Also there is a difference between ignoring it when people constantly demand stuff and actually doing exactly what they want... Which is why I said they should do a survey to figure out what is wanted.
Are you pretending mute is not function? Like if someone is toxic just mute them, it is really not that big off a deal... And if somebody really wants to be toxic they can work around a filter as useless as this one... It is just annoying to have to work around it, but it does not really prevent anything.
What has the outside thing to do with anything? It is an advantage, from where you get it does not really matter.
Good for you with the immersion I guess? No clue how you made it but OK, I didn't feel any immersion after like 100h in this game but alright ^^
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@nValentine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667646#Comment_3667646
i REALLY REALLY don't care about any of that you mentioned. in PLAY you can't make distance whenever billy misses a chainsaw, call it janky hitboxes, lag servers, whatever. and to be specific i'm not talking about how fast he can use his chainsaw again. i'm talking about a billy who M1 right after he misses a chainsaw.
i do know that he can't use his chainsaw immediately after, but that was never my point. and even then there's an addon that lets him recover faster lol
I think his cooldown for chainsaw usage and basic attack after a missed chainsaw should be the same? So where is the issue?
(Edit: I just went into customs to check but it is actually just the exact same time your chainsaw charge or m1 becomes ready again. So I still don't see your issue)
OK dude you are free to have your own opinion and dismiss any and all information based on your own but you cannot really expect people to take you serious if you do that, because it is hard to argue with someone who does not believe in math or fixed stats for how game mechanics work, just keep that in mind :)
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667809#Comment_3667809
People are more likely to spend money on characters who are getting them wins, it's been a thing many a team has used to sell their products. Blizzard as one example lol
If you think it's far fetched... are you new to live service games? lol
So why would they nerf him afterwards? It is not like you need to buy Billy... So the only thing there is is cosmetics and those you can sell all the time... So why exactly would they want to nerf him if they can keep him this good and therefore keep selling cosmetics? Your logic is a bit off mate.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667815#Comment_3667815
That's so condescending~ You realize by that logic we're able to dismiss the entire argument of "That neglects that people might want to interact via voice sometimes, they might not mute people everyday". If it's not valuable then we're explicitly ignoring these people, which is something we went out of our way to provide an answer for. Do they matter or not? If yes, then the survey proves enough people want it or not to justify focus for action or lack of.
Yet it's what the devs want. I know the 3 of us don't want to hear more creative ways to do you know what to ourselves, you?
Then we're going to say that the wheel would both be more effective and in theme with the game. It wouldn't be separated by language, wouldn't cause nearly as much toxicity, easily understood and can be limited, and doesn't break any immersion of the game. Coms we atleast have enough sense to get through the language barriers. Hear panic? Means something bad, if away then probably being chased, if close stop and think, etc. To us having both is indeed redundant.
Do you simply not understand what a representative amount requires? If I post a poll here then only a fracture of the player base, those who are on the forums, are able to see it, and only those who check the polls in general, which is an even smaller amount of people and then also only the English speaking ones of the forum users in general... Which is why I said it would need to be a survey of BHVR so it actually reaches a representative amount of people... I'm not ignoring people's opinions, I'm just saying they are not enough to represent the community as a whole.
Just because the devs want it does not make it a good idea all of a sudden and it restricts those people who don't want or care for such a feature, which is why it is a great thing to be able to disable it, like in any other game.
But why would you limit it? If it's purpose is to bridge the gap between solo and swf, with a limitation you are still leaving a gap open? Unless you don't want to fully close it calling it redundant is a little bit off. No offense but what immersion is left after a few hundred hours?