Akumakaji
Akumakaji
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@frozzenk said:
Kaneki players playing the most no-skill killer in the entire roster complaining that his nerfs are too much.
You can't make this stuff up.
Do you actually know and/or understand what no-skill means? Because everything in your comments screams that you don't.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
"God Rocks"? What the Heck are "God Rocks"? If you get run around on those, you really have a problem…
And well, Momo did not lose his winstreak because of the map, he lost his winstreak because he went against a strong team who was doing the same he was doing for almost 2000 games - sweating like crazy.
Blood Lodge might be slightly survivor-sided, but calling it "broken" or anything is really a bit too much.
I guess god-rocks are loopable rocks? I know that I sometimes feel slightly irritated by having to do a Benny Hills still chase around a rock with no option for any mind games or skill expression, but just brute force, but that slight irritation doesn't warrant to bring them to the same level like "god pallets", which are a genuine thing :D
But for real, Blood Lodge is probably the last map that comes to mind, when I think about problematic maps. Slightly killer or survior-leaning maps aint the problem, its the blatant sided maps that are unfun to play - and the whole swamp biome! Ugh! While I think that swamps belong to the slasher genre, I really hate the swamp maps for all the clutter and overgrowth and I constantly lose survivors who just turn the most mildest of corners. But I stil win my fair share of matches on that maps, so there is at least that.
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@TotemsCleanser said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914384#Comment_3914384
Yep, like I said, not everything I listed might be absolutely accurate. But I want to point out that, with my comment, I'm trying to dismantle the notion that BHVR always releases decent characters who they quickly nerf as soon as they've grabbed their cash. Because the original post I quoted seems to believe that BHVR nerfing all killers soon after their release is a thing that actually happens all the time when, really, it does not happen that often. And this idea that BHVR does so as an easy money grab, though not explicitly stated by the OP, usually comes in hand with OP's statement, so I'm trying to tackle the two at once. And I'm trying to showcase the actual diversity of changes killers got, from buffs to nerfs to QoL to… stasis, in the unchanged killers' case.
Also, I did not consider the changes that happened from the PTB to live because I'm analyzing what happens after BHVR releases a killer to the general public (as we know that not that many people play the PTB, since it's restricted to PC only and most people playing it are the most hardcore DBD fans, who rarely reflect the way the new content will be received by the general public). Like I said, since I want to dismantle the idea that BHVR maliciously nerfs every killer soon after they're released, taking the PTB into account is a bit pointless.
I am aware that BHVR releases a lot of killers in an unfinished & unpolished state, though. It's been my biggest criticism against BHVR as of late, since the last two killers we got made it seem as if they don't even try playing their characters before they release them (and some older ones too, like Twins due to how buggy they were, or Blight whose FOV was what Chucky's would be rn if he wasn't 3rd person, and who also needed all maps looked at & changed so that collision would properly work). I don't particularly remember it being the case for Dracula (though it's true that he received buffs in the first patch he got) but I am fully aware that killers like Houndmaster or Twins were released with a TON of bugs, and that the buffs to Houndmaster in particular came with the intent to compensate for them. Of course, though many bugs have been fixed, many of them remain to this day, but that's a different subject. In the case of Singularity, he needed a LOT of QoL changes to make him less clunky to play, which came in hand with many buffs too, and it's true they came like a year after his release, so he might fit the "unchanged" category, though the killers I included in that category either remained 2 years with no changes or have not received any big changes yet. But you're right that he was neglected for a while. Bear in mind that this does not coincide with OP's statement, though. They imply that every killer gets nerfed after their release. Being neglected needed buffs for a while is not the same as being outright nerfed. And, besides, he ended up getting those changes anyway, and now sits among some of the best killers in the game.
As for Dredge, I agree with you. I never said he was OP or even strong right now. I'm just pointing out that he did get some buffs. Are they enough? Nah. Killers whose power is so reliant on maps will always feel clunky and Dredge is probably hit the worst in that sense, since lockers vary A LOT from one map to another. Though it's true that his buffs came like two whole years after his release, so he actually fits "unchanged". Again, though, he was not nerfed.
As for Xenomorph, you're probably right. She's the killer I had the most doubts about when making this, especially because some of her changes are really new and there was recently a PTB where Xeno mains caused a big uproar (justifiedly so, from my understanding). However, it's tough to say if she's actually in a worse state right now, because many of her recent PTB nerfs were reverted and thus she received mostly buffs in the last update. Since I'm not sure about the overall outcome of her changes, I included her in "mixed". It does not seem her changes go strongly either way, it seems as if she was a clunky killer who received a bunch of changes but remained as clunky as before. Since that clunkiness is not new, the changes are not necessarily nerfs. But like I said, I don't really know for sure.
To be honest I'm tired of this narrative about every killer being nerfed little after their release because it's simply not true. My assessment of the aforementioned killers was a bit inaccurate, but I think we can agree that most of them (Xeno possibly being the only exception) were not nerfed after their release. I think that if we want to have a proper discussion on balance we need to stop spreading false narratives (which, mind you, often have their foundations in senseless Us vs Them narratives which are the one thing I can't stand about this community).
Thanks for your expansive answer, this shines a much more nuanced light on your earlier post, and I tend to agree to most you said here. While individual killers and their buff/nerf history can be debated (and I already commented on that one), my tone might have been a bit too antagonistic, as you yourself seem pretty level headed, and looking back at OPs statement, you are probably right: most killer releases don't fit the quick cashgrab narrative that is often spun, but somehow it always feels dangerous to like a newly released killer too much, as the ever present nerf bet looms menacingly over their heads.
A killers release time is always volatile and at times the pendulum swings in both directions too strongly, like with Singularity, were BHVR was obviously too scared to give him a strong power (and back then I remember a lot of comentators being salty that no new strong killers are allowed to release and join the high A or even S ranks) and he felt utterly impotant at release and with Kaneki at the other end of the spectrum, were he released obviously overtuned and too strong, especially in context to other killers who got similar parts of their kit nerfed (Chucky's scamper) or limiters set in place (basically all high mobility killers can't use their power around hooks).
When this event is over and things got back to normal, I might give Xeno a spin, I now kinda want to see how the rework plays, but right now its basically impossible to try out a killer with whom I am not familiar and already pretty good.
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@BreadSilence said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913875#Comment_3913875
kinda like when Reassurance was nerfed from PTB to live because killers complained "wahh I actually have to chase someone else waahhh I want to camp hooks forever waaahhhh gotta keep my pResSuRe waaahhhh"
And that's just one of many examples over the years
Classic killers!
I wouldn't call that a "Classic killers", as this one happens much less often, but I also felt that the outrage about Reassurance was completely unnecessary and blown out of proportions and, to be frank, quite embarrassing.
But in this case it wasn't even the killers complaining that killed the perk, but the fact that trolling survivors used it to keep the hooked player in the game, essentially taking the game hostage.
I really think that Reassurance is a great perk in design and just short of being great, but completely held back by its rocky history. My solution was always this: give everyone with the perk 3 charges and you can use one charge after the other when the previously one run out. This way you have a hard timer in case of trolling, but one player on Reassurance duty could actually make a big impact, by staying hidden and potentially make the killer slash at every bush, while the other two survivors could finish their gens. This way Reassurance would become the perk it was always meant to be. You could also implement that any givin hook timer could only be extended 3 times, no matter which survivor used their charges on the hooked one, putting an extra hard cap on trolling attempts.
Also, the range needs to be increased by about 1.5 - 2.0m, right now you have to do such a close drive in, that you can basically give the survivor a high five and a trade would actually just be as good as the extra 30s. Also, it should be used from outside the basement, just by running over the hooked survivor, this is actually such a no brainer.
As you can tell, for me being a dirty Killer Main, I am pretty pro-Reassurance ^_-
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Well, the premier second chance perk always have been DH and it worked exactly like you described it in your decision, ie giving a survivor a 2nd chance when they should have gone down and extending the chase way over the aloted timeframe. Back in the days, DH had rising to a 70% pick rate in the higher reaches of the game and it wasn't unheared off to go against 4 DH in one trial, 3 being the norm and just two a happy occurence to write home about.
I think back during its haydays killer numbers were at a pretty low and survivors talked a lot about 15-20min queue times in the evening. Going against DH in such regularity was just sould crushing, as there was nothing you could do as a killer and you often could see the way the chase would map out in your minds eye in perfect, excruciating detail. DS was also part of this mix and often paired with DH and essentially made it impossible for the killer to get any foothold in a match against good survivors, trapping them between a rock and a hard place. While its true that DS back then as of today only worked if the killer tunneled, tunneling was often the killers only lifeline to salvage a game that was rigged and staged against them from the very start.
Since then, the game has changed a lot, and people lable a lot of things in-game with fancy sounding lables, not really grasping were they come from and what they originally meant to describe - like I got even accused of camping and tunneling in 12 hook games were no one slipped into 2nd hook stage. Its especially those salty people that throw around buzz words that they don't understand.
After 6.1 we saw survivors experiementing with all the different exhaustion perks and I think the name kinda stuck with giving them the sorta alternative labeling of second chance perks, but besides the very rare case of a properly 99% SB, non of them are really 2nd chance perks that can rob you of your down after a long chase, a couple of frames before you get the down in any way similar to how DH did so in the past. Nearly all exhaustion perks are front loaded and after they play out their effect the killer can still chose to abandon the chase or keep going.
There was this old saying back in the days "if you outplay a survivor, but they got away with DH, did you really outplay them? Git gud, Killer. LMAO" and this really drives down the aggrevating nature of old and 2.0 DH
Other perks like Reassurance, Cameradry or OTR work a little bit different, but can help survivors to "slip out of death clutches" and getting a second chance at it, so they might be called 2nd chance perks. Shoulder the Burden is a bit differnt yet again, but I can still see why its labeled a second chance perk: a survivor who should have be on deathhook and die gets a 2nd chance to get rescued and its one of this perks that can leave a sour taste in a killers mouth if it works smoothly - which it seldom does. Bonus points for being exclusively broud by 3-4man SWFs who are already notoriously hard to beat and often thrive by harrassing killers into making bad decisions.
Adrenalin is also a true 2nd chance perk, but this one is a bit tougher to pull off. Good SWFs can do so by communicating and delaying the completion of the last gen till the exact right moment, but if it works, it snatches defeat out of the killers jaws and leave them with nothing but ash. Dramaturgy got a slight uptick in the last couple of month for the same reason, albeit less pronounced and always with the risk of getting exposed right in fron of the killer.
Syringes might be one of the only true 2nd chance items in the game: burn a medkit, but if you survive, you get the Adrenalin effect basically on command and in your pocket. Getting syringed can feel incredible frustrating and "unearned", but its still exponentially better then old DH.
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@Meme_o_gorgon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914444#Comment_3914444
yeah so we're here to discuss a growing problem in the game, reddit is down the hall and to the right
Well, as things stand, I doubt that, because anything that could be accomplished by "four brain cells" could be easily mindgamed by me in 0.4s.
If one could only try a little bit harder and address problems in a way that transport their gravitas without resorting to rediculous and overplayed hyperbole - but alas, it seemes impossible and so we are doomed to failure.
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my biggest spot on the wishlist for this:
give us 3-5 slots that we can fill with favorite items and that the auto blood-web will prioritise and then its just one click and all your BP will be spend in a 5s, no breaks auto-spending shopping spree and all items delivered directly into your account.
As a secondary feature, we could add limiters like "spend till next prestige level" or "spend 300k BP", but thats really not as important as making the bulk spending a much smoother experience.
With the current auto blood web I hate how slow and tedious it is, while still leaving most of the good items in the web for The Entity to devour. With the current auto feature you will only snag an iri add-one once in a blue moon if there isn't anything better to do, and it would be nice to have a consistently fast method of burging the BP stock without hurting the returns.
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@Meme_o_gorgon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914406#Comment_3914406
boohoo </3. also what do u mean by ,,you people"??
Touché! Thats a dirty generalisation by smug me, noticing how many people use this kind of exaggerated hyperbole and growing a bit tired of it myself.
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@proximity said:
Dudes, lockers don't hide your aura against Nowhere to Hide, Friends till the End, Legion instinct, Skull merchant instinct, Ghoul instinct, Wesker instinct, dog search, crow power, etc. Almost half of the killers have an instinct. Lockers only protects you against Barbecue&Chili and Doctor electrocution. If you don't know this, please play more survivors until you realize what perks and instincts lockers don't work against. Otherwise, I will think you're main Killer and try to stop this suggestion become live :)
Dude … before giving such a big mouth talk, you should know what you are talking about in the first place, or else you risk of embarressing yourself in front of the whole class.
Lockers already hide your aura from all this perks mentioned, but only if you are INSIDE the locker. If you are in the process of opening one and hiding inself, the killer can see your aura until the locker doors close shut, that is a BIG difference and likely is the part that you are confused about. I gurantee you, the killer using Nowhere to Hide of Frinds till the End didn't see you hiding INSIDE the locker, they saw your aura while you were in the process of hiding.
And this is were your own game sense and skill as a survivor comes into play, ie recognizing what perks the killer might have and then planning ahead. You don't just finish this gen and then causally stroll to a locker and hide inside, you need to be already inside of your locker before the killer kicks that gen or hooks that survivor (or pick that survivor up in case of Awakened Awareness), otherwise you are a sitting duck, and rightfully so.
So far I only ever talked about aura reading, as killer instinct works differently. Killer Instinct brakes all the rules on aura reading, BUT it is purposefully less accurate and only gives the killer a general direction that is updated with every heartbeat of the instinct. With aura reading you see exactly what the survivor is doing and in what diretion they are running etc. with killer instinct the killer knows where you were when the last heartbeat accured, but knows nothign of your orientation in the gameworld and what you were going to do. THAT is a big difference - but the one big bonus that killer instinct has over aura reading is, that it reveals your position even if you are inside of a locker. So, if you play against killers like Legion, Skull Merchant or Artist, always remember this subtle but important difference and don't be like a poor 5h Dwight, hiding inside his locker till the killer pulls him out.
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@Meme_o_gorgon said:
Gens are way too easy to do. You can bring 4 of the best slowdown perks and any team with a shared amount of 4 braincells can still easily gen rush. There is nothing to gens besides holding m1 and MAYBE getting 1-2 skill checks. Not to mention that you can: bring a toolbox (and buff it further with add-ons / built to last), have multiple survivors work on it (this part is fine but im still gonna point it out), have gen rushing perks that also STACK, permanently remove charges left to repair a generator or even ALL gens etc. Anyone who says that gen speed isnt a problem is either: hard coping, needs to play for longer, rage baiting, attention seeking or doesnt want them nerfed so they can continue playing on easy mode. You can play amazingly, get consistent downs and have medium to short chase times but theres still 3 survivors out there doing gens. Some things that can be done to balance things out could be: nerf all gen perks, there is no need for a gen rushing build to exist. Make gen rush perks not stack. Nerf combos of survivor rush perks. Rework brand new part, we do NOT need bnp with weaving spiders and that one lara croft perk all in one, an idea could be to make it so a gen regresses slower or the killer can only kick a gen 6-7 times instead of 8 times (only 1 bnp per gen ofc). Increase default charges required to finish a gen. Make gens more interactive, even the survivors who love their nasty gen rushing play styles complain its way too boring to hold m1 and occasionally press the space bar. Buff killer base kick action OR buff regression perks just a tiny little bit. I dont expect all of these things to happen, but even 2 or 3 of them coming could be a huge quality of life fix. Imagine all the new players from the fnaf collab come and quit because gens are basically stand still and win in 4 minutes stations.
Whatever you wrote down in your paragraph there, I wasn't interest to read to rest of it once you dropped that "4 braincells" comment. Really, you people all need to learn a little bit about the proper use of exaggeration, hyperbole, sarcasm, irony and all the other figures of speach, as most of you just write down something and hit it over the head with the language hammer a couple of times to bang it into the desired shape, function be damned.
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911284#Comment_3911284
I got to be honest calling the kagune leaps highest form of skill is not really a good statement to me.
I took a few turns with him and to me leaping right next to survivors or in front of them cutting them off from ressources was pretty easy.
High skill moves to me are long distance prediction blinks from nurse, oni 180's, crossmap hatches from huntress. The leap's however are basically a blight dash but you don't have to be precise about it and you cannot dotch it with a tech like corner tech or crouching.
Overall this killer is pretty easy to control and that is paired with his high mobilty and the abiltity to injure survivors fast pretty strong.
However the Ghoul just got its first set of nerfs and we will have to see how that plays out.Dude, you totally misread my post, I didn't called Kagune Leaps itselt the highest form of skill, like in the game at all, but that good Kagune Leaps are the highest form of skill expression as a Ghoul player right now.
Everyone can just do three leaps in succession and cross the map in seconds in order to pressure someone over there, but that is just strong map mobility, thats not some clever use of your power of expression of skill. But when you leap in front of a survivor cancel your power in time to intercept them, while blocking the shack window and letting them run frantically into you, hoping to wriggle through, or slide around a corner and come to rest just an inch in front of the pallet that the survivor wanted to reach, THAT is not your everyday play, that is some cool skill expression and completely on par with the long distance Nurse blinks or crossmap hatchets, that only can happen with experience. BTW, Oni 180 are 100% a thing of the past and won't come back, as they were patched out as a "never intented" bug.
But coming back to Kaneki, all this skillful part of his kit is very dependant on the timely canceling of his power and getting to the survivor before they can gain too much distance. Its why Chuckies original scamper was strong (too strong), but Weskers leap over pallets is nothing to write home about and unable to procure a hit in anything but a very specific number of loops. If Kanekis power canceling is nerfed too much, then he will be unable to use his power in chase at all and be left with just a high mobility killer that can relocate fast, but nothing else to fear from. Thats what I meant when I mean its a very delicate balance and easy to make or break him.
I kinda hate how the breaking of a pallet sends him into cooldown, which works good with his kit, but now a lot of people talk about applying this mechanic as a blanket mechanic to all movement or dash killers. We saw the same with the killers terror radius a while back, when before some killers had a unique terror radius, but then everyone got the same one, and for example Pig suffered a lot because of this, but over time we saw that sometimes it makes sense to ditch a "one size fits all" approach in favor of going with what the killers unique power and kit bring to the table and what playstyles they demand.
Imagine if Kanekis power cancel had a cooldown comparable to Wesker pulling away his tentacle after he vault: you couldn't use Kanekis power in chase or around loops at all and were just left with one option: disrepect the pallet and just bullrush after the survivor and wait for the inevitable stun, as finesse had no part of your kit anymore.
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@ad19970 said:
Nerfing tunneling, slugging and camping in a signifcant way is the only way to really improve the game's health gameplay wise. These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888002#Comment_3888002
this argument is literally on the level of BHVR's decision to completely destroy Skull Merchant as an attempt of damage control in order to actually make community go quiet on her until she gets properly reworked and rebuffed again (not soon lol), and is quite literally looking at the aspect of game health from quite an one-sided perspective.
These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
splitting gens is also very unfun to face, Boil Over and sabo strats are also very unfun to face, yet sabo was buffed for example.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
anti-camping, anti-tunneling and anti-slugging perks are insanely strong right now. There is no healthy way to nerf camping, tunneling and slugging at the moment because killer's main objective, hooking, is already on dead legs.
Doing any kind of straight up nerf and then waiting to see how things will go over time to see what buffs killers should receive as compensation is literally extremely irresponsible thing to do.
All pof these strats are still meta because average player has no intention to ever learn the counterplay. Do you think they would be so popular if people using them noticed it doesn't yield success to them nearly as often as they think it does? Of course not.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888048#Comment_3888048
Yes, I must reiterate that anti-tunnel slug perks are insanely powerful. People don't understand how much momentum you lose by being hit by just 1 of them. "I had this survivor dead to rights, but then I got stunned and now have to re-chase to kill them, or else I've just wasted a chase." "I had the whole team down, after all 4 went down in 45 seconds, but 1 person got up and now they've fully reset." I can't even think up the survivor equivalents to these situations, because they'd be too ridiculous.
I also notice that when killers get nerfed, they get nerfed, overall weaker than before. But when survivors get nerfed, 95% of the time it's an even exchange, if not more. Like look at the Buckle Up change. Not only can you still do the Buckle Up/FTP combo by using WGLF/Made For This instead, but what Buckle Up got changed to is literally giving a Sprint Burst WITH no exhaustion. Or when they changed DH from being a free distance perk to one that gave a sprint burst for even more distance than before. But killers using strategy and conserving STBFL stacks with their M2? "Overpowered." That's why simply hitting a survivor with Deathslinger's chain, or simply infecting a survivor with Nemesis, now loses you stacks.
Or we can look at buffs. When they changed Resurgence from 50% auto-healed to 70% just to counter the possibility of Hemorrhage-using killers. Well, what about the killers who don't use it? The survivor gets healed to full seconds after they've got off hook. But when Mangled/Hemorrhage themselves got nerfed, it went from basically infinite duration and long duration to almost nothing. 90 seconds of Hemorrhage doesn't matter when the hook state alone is 70 seconds. You can see the double standards so clearly.
And you're right on who is really being catered to: the people who don't even want to learn or think. Someone was dying on a hill saying, "Every killer in the game has a clearly observable power, but Skull Merchant's is impossible to figure out even to experienced players." Apparently reading the killer's power description, which you can do without buying them, or looking up gameplay is too much work for people. Almost every game I've played, I've seen gameplay of before I bought it, or playing the game got me to watch someone else's gameplay. The level of effort, that's being called "too much" to learn killers and their counterplay, is less than even CoD at this point. Why are the devs working so hard to even the playing field with those players specifically in mind? They shouldn't be able to beat really good killers, as they nearly are able to now, because they literally don't care.
I just want to chime in here, as I am a killer main who plays a fair share of survivors and know a lot of the bickering of my SWF comrades pretty well ^_-
Yeah, getting tunneled at 4 gens remaining is a pretty scummy tactic and there is nothing fun at it at all, same goes for camping just outside the range of the effective anti-camp range, but just as Narko said, this changes always come with the incredible big danger of being too much and unintentionally killing off entire playstyles or deleting killers from the publics eye.
In my regular SWF group there are people who legit think that killers are so strong that they can always aim for 12 hooks and anything less is despicable and camping and that they should burn - I might have embellished this a bit for dramatic purposes, but the community literally calls any tactical sound action of the killer, that doesn't involve truning their back to the hook and walking away, scummy and unfun and casually throw around the terms of camping or tunneling, but most survivors don't know jack of the life of full on killer mains.
The argument of high level play or high MMR ranges is tough to maintain without any numbers, but I know for a fact that the survivors that I play against as killer stand head and shoulders above the quality that my own or my friends survivor gameplay delivers. In most of my killer gameplay, I just don't have the luxury of hooking all 4 survivors and going for a casual 8 hooks before a kill, but even by ping ponging between two survivors, the players in the post game chat will constantly try to gaslight me into thinking that I didn't earn my win, even though they themselves went all out to do so and played with any trick in the book.
Ever since 6.1 survivors as a general split up on gens, so the pressure for the killer is already much higher then back in the days, because survivors are jsut THAT much more efficient about it. And like danielmaster explained, most survivors seem to have no idea how much a single DH or Flashlight safe with a successful getaway throws a wrench into a killers game plan. The traditional 90s gens already pose a big chip on the killers shoulders, but the new blood gens, while more engaging with all the moving around the map and promoting teamwork again, often pop so fast, that a killer literally has no time to waste and if you do the math, its practically impossible to do a 12 hook game within the timeframe of the bloodgens event; survivors usually aren't lining up to go down every 20s or so.
And a lot of survivor-only players absolutely downplay the impact the +10s hook timer has, EVEN if you don't camp the hook at all, as survivors have literally no pressure at all to get to the hook and can usually finish their gens before going for the rescue. The clock is perpetually ticking for the killer and without somehow turning it 3v1 asap, there is usually no respite. So while the survivor in me wouldn't mind a bit more breathing room, the killer in me already has so little room for error and even small mistakes, that the notion of widespread anti-tunnel and anti-slugging seems not very possible at all.
How is BHVR going to compensate killers for the massive loss in time efficency? Giving everyone +5% speed? That might be a start if you really want a 12 hook game from everyone. DBD never had a comeback mechanic, and this is something that I talk a lot about here on the forums regularly, but it might actually be the best way to tackle this issues.
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@TotemsCleanser said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913875#Comment_3913875
If you make that the Criteria then you can apply “The Freddying” almost every single killer that has ever released!
Do you genuinely think this is something that happens in reality? Let's look at some recently released killers and how they were treated since their official release:
- Kaneki: received some extremely needed nerfs.
- Houndmaster: received multiple buffs since release and only VERY minor buffs such as Dog vault speed going from 0.45 s to 0.65 s.
- Dracula: received multiple buffs and two nerfs to CDs.
- Vecna: received a fair mix of buffs and nerfs, mostly to CDs.
- Unknown: only received a slight buff and QoL changes.
- Chucky: this one was actually heavily nerfed.
- Xenomorph: received a fair mix of buffs and nerfs.
- Singularity: received many buffs and a bunch of QoL changes.
- Skull Merchant: also heavily nerfed AND reworked multiple times.
- Knight: received many buffs but also some nerfs and tweaks that in a way reworked the way he works and made him a bit more unsatisfying to play as.
- Wesker: remained unchanged for like two years before receiving very slight nerfs.
- Dredge: received multiple buffs.
- Onryo: was buffed, nerfed, and reworked so many times that she might actually have been Freddied™
- Artist: remains UNCHANGED since her release.
- Cenobite: remains pretty much unchanged since his release, with a single little nerf to his cube teleporting somewhere else if he stands on it for too long.
- Nemesis: has only received buffs.
I could go on but we're already in 2021 (with Nemesis being an Anniversary killer) so I think that's enough.
Overall
BUFFED: 5 (Houndmaster, Dracula, Singularity, Dredge, Nemesis).
NERFED/REWORKED: 5 (Kaneki, Chucky, Skull Merchant, Knight, Onryo).
MIXED: 2 (Vecna, Xenomorph).
UNCHANGED: 4 (Unknown, Wesker, Artist, Cenobite).
It seems a lot more balanced than you claim. People need to stop with this narrative of all killers getting gutted soon after their release because it's not true.
And also, do you genuinely believe that 100% of times survivors simply never learned to adapt? Is it really IMPOSSIBLE for BHVR to release a killer who is fundamentally overpowered and needs nerfs? Because I agree that survivors sometimes DO refuse to adapt, like with the latter iterations of Skull Merchant (people are still DCing these days) or with the original Freddy design, but sometimes killers ARE too strong and deserve the nerfs (Kaneki being the biggest offender as of late). The same way that sometimes killers ARE too weak and deserve buffs (Dredge is a great example of this).
Also feel free to argue with my reasoning for some of these because I'm not 100% familiar with every single killer in the game and how every single change impacted their gameplay. This list is not 105% accurate but I think it more or less reflects what has happened with each of these killers since they were released.
i hovered for a while over the downvote button, but decided against it, because you got right a lot with this post and obviously a lot of knowledge and esprite went into it, BUT I think that context matters a lot, too.
For example right at release Houndmaster, Dracula and Singularity felt aweful and only the first round of hitfix patches made Houndmaster and Dracula dangerous and safed them from mediocracy. But especially Singularity was significantly weakened from his PTB version, so much that it felt like a rip off and the survivors had so much active say over Singularities use of their power that it felt like playing just an M1 killer without any saving grace.
The buffs to Singularity only happened MUCH MUCH later, at a point were this killer had all but disappeared from the publics eye and wasn't really encountered by players, because his power felt to unrewarding and clunky. That he is NOW in the buffed category feels a bit missleading or missing the point.
Sorta the same could be said about the Dredge, whoms supposed great map mobility is hindered a lot by erratic locker placement and how the survivors quickly wisened up to the fact that closing half the lockers instead of all of them is just the biggest time sink for the Dredge, eventually showing in the pickrates plumeting. The massive 8.2 buffs were much needed and happened extremely late in the killers life cycle, so again, calling this a net-buff in this context feels a bit out of the loop.
And the changes to the Alien feel far from "mixed", in my opinion. While right after release the Xenomorph was extremely overtuned due to the lack of punichment for missed tail attacks, after this was nerfed, the killer felt extremely unrewarding and miserable to play to most killers, because it was hit with the infamous double nerf, ie rewerting the wrong PTB to life change (this was good and necessary) but also slapping another nerf on TOP of that (which kinda killed the alien). To be honest, I haven't played the Xenomorph since its newest wave of changes, but most players don't seem to be too happy about that one either, so again, calling it a net-mixed bag feels disingenuous.
Still, I appreciate the work that went into your post, so take my neutral stance as a win.
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General Killer Perk: Just Leave
Effect: when lingering in the exit gates area for longer then 40/30/20s The Entity blocks the exit gates for that survivor, they become exposed and their aura shown to the killer for 6/7/8s. The block and exposed status effect persist till the survivor moved away 40m from the exit gates. Survivors leaving before their timer has filled up gain a +5k BP score event "Awesome person!"
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913322#Comment_3913322
I’m pro versatility and buff EVERYTHING to be good and leave people to their own devices really and let people play how they want with standalone good perks or support perks that buff a style.IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH SIDE. This is basically a sandbox game that’s costumed like a competitive asymm. If it were actually competitive there would be leaderboards that are broadcasted, but there’s not. You can play this game with whatever and whoever you want basically. “Meta” doesn’t control me. You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t think saying introducing a cool haste perk and keep in mind killers that won’t be able to keep up with it is some crazy out of pocket take. If you want survivors to just stand still and not be able to take chase or do gens just say that, I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a player base for survivor that ENJOYS that though is all I’m saying.
Well, I obviously hit nerf there, as you got instantly pretty defensiv. But just in case that I overstepped, the one assumption that I made was that you included yourself in the group of survivors that hate chase cutting perks, and that you weren't talking about that group from the outside.
The other thing is that I explained how the constant attack on perks outside of the meta is counterproductive to perk variety - I might have missed your point, but you literally started your statement with "counterpoint", inticating that it stood counter to the points I made in my initial post. I find that much more reasonable to assume, than that what you do: that I somehow demand or want survivors to just stay in place, let themselves getting killed unopposed and then looking around like a surprised pikachu when no one wants to play survivor.
Indeed, meta should not control us, and my general use builds are pretty much off-meta most of the time and I like using a couple of perks off the beaten path. For 2 years, Spies in Shadows is in nearly every killer build of mine, its definitely my most favorite perk, but just now people seem to be waking up to how good it is as i saw more and more posts mentioning it, in the past most people shot this perk down as weak and borderline useless.
BUT if we want to break open the crusty old mold of the perk meta, we need to make other perks, old and new, viable and attractive to at least some part of the players base. The meta will always be the most played perks, thats the defining feature of the "most effective tactic available", as a surprising number of players outright HATE the concept of equipping a perk that might not help them or give them value in each and every game. As a survivor I love to play Quick and Quiet + Headon, probably the weakest exhaustion perk in the game and it doesn't give me value every game, but when it does its so much fun.
But were I am totally on your side is the schizophrenic identity crisis of DBD: on one hand its constantly flaunted around as this fun game were you are chased by legendary slasher killers or can even play as one yourself and thats a fun, little party game, but on the other hand its constantly evaluated and balanced like a straight esports titel with a hardcore competitive scene.
While DBD HAS a competitive scene, in order to make that one work they have to maintain expansive lists of outlawed perks and add-ons, and ostensibly the list of the banned survivor perks is much longer then the killer one, albeit the banned killer list isn't short by any means.
DBD is as balanced as it has ever been, but right now we are at the cusp of optimizing the fun out of the game, by not allowing the other side to have anything good, fun or effective. While I am what you might consider a killer main, i play a pretty fair share of survivor and pride myself by having completed every achievment and tome challenge in the game - probably impossible if I never touched survivors at all. So I KNOW the pain of getting tunneled out of nowhere at 4 gens, that sucks! But I also know the feeling of the killer when 3 gens pop first chase and they instantly feel the pressure raising, with one survivor with one hook and 3 survivor with no hooks at all greedy to pounce on two of the remaining gens.
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Now that you mention it, I remember his long 9 inch nails! Weird!
Well, it probably caused some sort of bug? Or maybe the art team wasn't satisfied with how it works or maybe they got a lot of feedback that it made people feel unwell, because its kinda creepy - there are lots of potential reasons, but maybe one of the fine people hear knows more then me?
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913282#Comment_3913282
counter point
Survivors in mass hate how many anti-loop killers have been introduced. chases don’t last long(survivors love chase, not being down in 20 seconds flat) these maps have gotten so small and the amount of loops that buy any real time have been drastically down sized. So pitching a perk that even further pushes chase more in killer advantage would be a hard sell UNLESS they’re also pushing perks that extend survivor chases to counter that. Because if only one side is getting those kind of chase perks that makes chases more fun, and the other side isn’t well you’re killing the most fun part of the game for most people. Idk not nerfing duty of care would be a start, and buffing machine learning. People don’t like being a piñata one side or the other, they like competition.
well, one of the new perks introduced with the next survivor is a perk that will literally make rescues and escape during the EGC from nearly any part of the map possible and in most cases even easy. Thats a pretty seizable buff. What I really don't get is how many survivor on one hand lament the stale meta and that nothing moves, but on the other hand aren't willing to let other perks, even extremely niche and situational ones, raise up and shine and allowing them to break the old mold.
You are basically saying that enduring two supercharged chases per match isn't preferable to facing another cookie cutter Pop/PainRes/Lethal/BBQ killer. Of the 130 Killer perks, over half of them have a pickrate of below 2%, with 9 of the top 10 perks having a 10%+ pick rate. I guess "shaking up the meta" is only ever alowed from the top to the bottom, ie nerfing things to the ground, so that the next best medioce one can take the place of its follen brothers, not out of strength, but out of sheer desperation.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912925#Comment_3912925
There would actually be so many different strategies and builds and playstyles killers could be using right now. But the devs nerfed so much, they funneled the players who wanted to get good with killer into playing the same way, because all their options were taken away.
This is one of my biggest gripes with the game. Like I vividly remembered when Machine Learning was reworked and it was for a short time really strong - well, not really strong, but you now only had to kick a gen once and if THAT compromised gen got finished, you could zoom over the map with +10% speed for a whole minute. It was stupidly fun, especially if combined with Batteries Included and Rapid Brutality.
During the zoomer moment of course the game was unbalanced and I could brute force literally any loop in the game, besides god pallets, obviously, but even though I played that combo exclusively for a couple of days, it never activated three times in one game, it happend a maximum of 2 two times and I had literally no control over it happening at all, as especially at the last 2 gens the survivors would often focus down the wrong gen.
So I had a combo that was stupidly strong and fun when it worked, but it was literally my whole build and would only activate one time, possibly two times, in one match, with the moving parts like Batteries Included still out of my hands and potentially dead perks.
But still, even though it was already niche at that point, Machine Learning was nerfed again and had its uptime reduced to 45s. It might not sound like much, but with all perks already accounted for, there was little to find survivors and that missing 15s very much meant that the whole combo was only good for one chase and then some.
All this talk was just to highlight, the fact, that niche builds always had a tough time in DBD and the meta was solidified and fossilized in stone for a reason: because it worked nearly all the time and gave value nearly every chase.
BUT this change is also an opportunity, as BHVR could now go all out with some of this niche perks and make them extremely impactful, for when they activate, without needing a whole bunch of other perks to stack. If Machine Learning, for example, gave +15% on its own, that would still allow this playstyle, but also free up the three other perk slots for anything I desired. This is HUUUGE. The problem is just to sell this to the other survivors, ie that a +15% Machine learning that activated a max of two times per match was still better, then the same old PainRes/Pop/NowhereToHide combo that every killer was otherwise running.
If BHVR plays this right, we could outsource the necessary perk stacking of a build and allow niche perks to be viable with one single perk, thus enabling a place in a players loadout much more often
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442319/tunneling-has-gotten-out-of-control
It is already happening for like a year or so.
The player base is crumbling, content creators make less content, switch to different games or stop at all.
Tunneling is one of the most boring ways to play the game. There has been thousands of posts about it with thousands of suggestions what to cheange but so far nothing significant was done.
If five nights ad freddys flop as much as the twins, skull merchant or the alien. Then dbd is probably dead mid 20266
where do you get this from that the player base is crumbling? Seems pretty stable to me. Kanekis overtuned state (wouldn't go so far as to call him OP, as I saw a lot of survivors recently who knew how to keep out of sight) surely made the game a bit less appealing to a wide swath of the player base, but its a tough cookie, with the event being so survivor sided that most other less mobile killers are at such a detriment. Both sides are above the normal power curve right now, so they somewhat enable each other.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442830/your-blood-moon-builds
I run brutal, no way out, forever entwined and sloppy
I am not sure how much Forever Entwined throws off survivors flashlights, but is sure seems to be working, as I got a lot of tight getaways when I played it.
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I am playing exclusively Kaneki during the event, because with all other killers, the gens just fly like they are going out of business.I am all for this new mechanic in general and mixing survivor gameplay up, but without any form of gen defense and how fast they can be completed by working together, its just insurmountable pressure with most other killers.
But after my fair share of Friends till the End, Dissolution and Rapid Brutality, I am now a bit more chill just adopted a devious endgame build, just to make survivors sweat really hard when they think that they are nearly out.
Spies (my go-to info perk that I play in basically any build)
None are Free - No Way Out - Remember me: just a very evil endgame combo. If you manage to get full stacks, then the endgame is really no fun for survivors. I also had so many situations where I closed the hatch and watched survivors die at the exit gate switch, as the lamps turned agonizingly slow to red. I think if you manage to close the hatch before the survivors touch the gate, there is only a miniscule 10s window for them to start the exitgates after the switches come unblocked. Its really evil and even if you don't get it powered up completely, it still makes the endgame a lot of fun and gives you a surprising amount of free kills.
Just be ready for some salt.
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@burt0r said:
All hail to our Lord and Savior Lightborn 🫲😎🫱
But with Lightborn you aren't blinded and so can't down survivors who blinded you within the last 30s. The bane of any dedicated achievment hunter out there :V
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But indeed, as of the moment, Awakened Anger is the rarest achievment by quite some bit. It is one of this achievments that will eventually get done just by playing normally, but its no pushover
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909957#Comment_3909957
I get what you're saying but another concern could be the downside to this.
If they buff all the perks to be strong as if they were stacked before, then players will have their "unfair" hard to counter haste at every activation, as opposed to having lots of small levels of haste throughout the match but only have really high haste at a few points when the activation conditions align right.
In short I suspect BHVR is aware of this and haste will never be as good as it was before while also ruining a lot of fun builds that were not even that good most of the time. In short, these changes you want to see in order to balance out the removal of stacking are probably never coming.
@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912205#Comment_3912205
A problem arises that many Haste perks are situationally conditioned.
That is why people usually stack them with other haste perks to create both utility for survivor or killer.
As the OP mentioned, them limiting haste perks individually will do nothing but create more situationally used perks that used to interact with each other but now no longer do that.
People using Blood Pact with other haste perks do not warrant a nerf to haste related perks given that these perks (let's use Blood Pact as an example) indicates that you have to be near the obsession to gain value. Let's say a duo SWF or a full man SWF (one has Blood Pact with other haste related perks, alongside the other - I've seen Cru5h with a similar build). You have two survivors predominately in chase, they are practically interlocked and intertwined the whole game as they need to be near one another meaning less gen pressure as a whole as it means these two survivors are together and less gen progress is on the map in general.
I don't mind this change as now in @Defnotmeghead words they won't be "catchable" but it pushes more people into running more meta related perks instead of sh*ts and giggles for a YouTube channel.
So, by all means if a person thinks haste stacking is broken on survivor with these niche combos - these perks that are used (formerly in tandem with others) will be weaker individually. No one will use Blood Pact or the Teamwork perk because NO ONE hardly used them other than for meme worthy videos.
It wouldn't affect me, but I as a person who likes build variety and creativity feel for people who run these perks for albeit situational advantages and gives killer the boost on their side as you have two people willingly playing around to not be "catchable" while trading off progression in the game. Again, the perks are hardly used and makes Behavior have to fundamentally buff these perks individually and we all know how long it takes Behavior to buff perks in their application and usability with many, many, many perks that still need to be addressed.
I will answer you two together, as this are some interesting points you brought up.
Yes, in the past, a lot of perks were extremely niche and situational and this was what kept people from using them in the first place. You had to go out of your way to make use of a lot of this perks and they only worked by combining them with other haste perks, in order to boost their effect high enough to be noticable. But when you get a Rapid Brutality/Machine Learning/Batteries Included train going, it allowed you to ignore any mindgames and outplays and just bulldoze a loop and smack any survivor, no matter their skill level. Thats fun! But you had so many moving parts that needed to be at the right place at the right time, that most people never bothered with it and for every cool bulldozer moment, you probably had 5 or even 10 or 15 situations, where one of the more general useful perks had served you better in any shape or form.
I get the concern that Skitten brings up and how it might feel unfair on paper, to have players always go against the fullpowered version of such a combo, but hear me out:
1) we don't know the numbers yet, but while I suspect that the numbers will go up, they probably will be in the middle of the range of such builts, where the perks start to become useful on its own, but not utterly gamebreaking. Taking my example, a Batterie included would give maybe +7-+10% haste, but not +20-30% haste as with a full on "everything falling into place"-combo.
2) by making individual niche perks more independant, they become viable in a lot more situations, and by this they should sneak their way into more builds. We all lament the fossilized meta all the time, but thats because people want consistancy from their perks, and not a wild goose chase for a situation that only comes up once every ten games. So probably any killer could slot in a Batteries Included into their 4th perk slot and just play a bit differently then last game, without feeling it like a perk tax or a nuisiance, even though they don't get value from that perk in every chase, but those times they do, its impactful enough to warrant the non-meta approach. And that would be a very good thing.
The Bloodpact playstyle can be fun, but back in the past it wasn't worth it besides some Youtube streamers trying to construct the perfect conditions where 8 perks fall into place and create the absurdest form of synergy, just to break the system. I could see myself and one of my regular Duo SWF friends doing a couple of Bloodpact runs, if all it takes is one perk slot, and not like 4 spread over both out builds. Sure, we would have to run together everywhere, but it might make things fun and shake them up enough to be worth our time. Again, variety is king.
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For me what ruined this event is how fast survivors can complete gens and that there is no counterplay to that hardcoded into the game.
I appreciate that BHVR wants to stress test this new gen completion mechanic, but by giving it no counterplay, its so punishing to play any killer without map mobility - so unironically I now play exclusively Kaneki, probably feeding into the problem, but thats just DBD, I guess.
The couple of times I played Pyramid Head, I lost so hard and got "ggez"ed every singel time, that I will now play just Kaneki till this event is over. Everythin else seems pointless and I guess BHVR wants their data on him, too.
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It was slow work for me, too and the last 6 blips for the achievment went by at an agonizingly slow crawl. But when I finally got it, it was against a bully squad with 4 Flashlights and I got probably 10 blips that match alone.
Since I got that achievment, I now see flashlights in nearly every lobby and get blinded constantly at downed pallets - as always, never let the game know what you want or hate, it can smell fear.
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@ChurchofPig said:
I don't think this was a really well thought out part of the event. Like just make powers work with the blood gens, the fact that 6 killers can be completely countered by focusing down the blood gens is not okay, especially when it actually completely destroys 1 of those killer's powers. If it doesn't break the game when the gens that take 90 seconds to complete have these interactions, something tells me it won't break the game if the gens that take maybe 20 seconds when working on them to have these interactions.
My guess from the start was that BHVR wanted to stress test this new mechanic to see if it was viable to introduce to the main game as an alternative way of doing gens, so they wanted to incentivice the use of the new gens as much as possible to the survivors and get as much raw data as possible, before this event ends. But along the process, so many killer powers and perk combinations were left in the wake.
It could also be a way to stress test Kanekis power, as a lot of killers seem to play Kaneki exclusively this event and it kinda makes sense to have an OP-killer-release vs an OP-gen-rush-event and see who comes up on top if both are dialed up to 11, if you want to stress test the system.
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That one took me a long time, too. Wasn't it also a Jane one, so you couldn't just cycle through all your characters but needed the keys on Jane, so eventually I needed to farm blood points just to get another shot. I also noticed how killers would tunnel me or camp hatch when I started the trial with a key, so this led to me doing a rummage and Aces Luck build and hope that I would find a purple or iri key from a random chest, which has a rather high chance of happening with the right luck setup, and then lurk around during EGC and hope that the killer would close the hatch. So it was less of a hassle then "Aces Journey 2" for me, but I could see how this challenge can be really aweful.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
I mainly want to show off, because I finally managed to finish all challenges, but thought it might be interesting topic anyway.
So for me worst challenges:
Survivor: Take 3 protection hits with Mettle of Man and escape as Ashley
So much pain, I don't even want to know how many attempts I had on it.
Killer: Sacrifice 4 survivors in basement
It's probably easier now with bots, but I did it when DC meant I failed.
Most annoying Tome was either Tome 1, or Tome 10, they have some ridiculous numbers.
There are many annoying survivor challenges, luckily they are often easy in 2v8, where I finished many of them, if possible.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1AEJ2ESPK9HB/perfect.png
Nicely done and GG! I am a fellow achievment and challenge hunter and have been on the same journey as you. I think the achievment that gave me the highest amount of grey hair was "Aces Journey 2". You got to finish two gens, cleanse to totems and getting two safe unhooks, all during the course of one game. I can't exlain how often I tried and failed that one, because the requirement really asks for a golden opportunity and everything falling in place.
The match starts and you start hunting for totems? The three easy gens get done promptly, leaving your with no real opportunity to finish two of your own.
You finish two gens? The other players suddenly all try to go for the unhooks, leading to so much inefficiency that the team just falls appart.
You got everything done and only need to cleanse one more totem? Sadly one player is dead, one on hook the killer patrols, giving you no opportunity to cleanse.
You cleanse two totems, finish to gens?`Sadly your team just got its a-game and even though one goes down during the EGC, a great flashlight safe prevents anyone from going on the hook. ggez.
Honestly, every match felt like this and those games were I said "you know, I will just play the game and it will get doen naturally eventually", those games I didn't even got close to getting this one done. Ugh. I even remember one match were I got so frustrated, I only needed one more safe unhook and the team had slayed this match, that I bodyblocked the exit gate switch, just to allow the killer to get one more down :D But not with this survivors and their accurate flashlights and I felt so ashamed after this one that I opened the gates and let that golden opportunity go away.
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Honestly, for all the rants about the Ghoul, this is one of the most levelheaded and productive ones I have read so far. Its true, nearly every killer has some kind of system in place that limits the use of their power around hooks in order to prevent camping and hook farming, but the Ghouls power is unrestraint in any way and you really feel this with how most Ghouls return to the hook like clockwork and get right back into the mix. Though from my own experience with playing the Ghoul, most players just book it after the unhook and I have been left with untold number of cases, were i couldn't find the unhooker and was only left with the blood trail of the unhooked. Even though the Ghoul is strong, he is not an autowin by any mean and in this current state of the game, one slip can mean 2 getting done without any opposition. So if the unhooking survivor fails to protect the unhooked one, even if I don't like to I sometimes had to tunnel and slug, just to create pressure.
The power canceling, I am very torn about. Right now its the highest form of skill expression with the Ghoul, swinging in around a corner and cancel, ready to slay! Thats so cool! But it also leaves survivors with nothign to work with and thats uncool, I know that feeling myself. It is a fine line to walk, because if you miss your cancel window, you are stranded in a potentially strong loop with no opportunity to catch up to the survivor and you just waste a lot of time, if the cancel animation would be longer and more punishing, this would even dwindle down the opportunity were a Ghoul can make cool plays with his power and in the overwhelming number of cases his power couldn't be used to gain an upper hand in any case, only to traverse the map and initiate a chase. Thats what people meant when they said "Ghoul is just an M1 player with high mobility". Right now thats not true, but its a fina edge to make the power utterly unusable in chase.
This might all be inflated because of the current event, were even in a good match gens fly like crazy and even good Ghoul players have to be on their toes. I lost many games simply by not sealing the deal on a survivor on death hook and letting them get away this one time, because the current event is so abyssmally stacked against the killer with the ticking clock of the blood gens in the back.
The hit box of the Ghouls power will forever be a red flag and at this point there is nothing BHVR can realistically do about it. I can understand why they made the power hit scan, because at this ranges and with the latency we got in the game it would be unrealistic to use this part of the power, but that the animation plays the instant the game detects a hit just leads to all this aweful moments where surivors get stuck by tantacles through walls, rocks, even entire buildings and that of course feels cheap as hell. At the very least BHVR could maybe shrink the hit box a little bit, as right now there is a 50cm aura around a survivor that will register the hit. When I let two survivors go in one of my last games I played around with the hit box and it really is very generous.
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Not really sure what you mean, but without sounding condescending, have you actually read his kit and power? 3 hits would kinda buff him, actually, as right of now he can't down you with a tentacle hit at all, not even 100.
On the other hand, if you would need three hits with the Kagune to damage a survivor, what the reason behind this effect in the first place? I don't think that I have ever hit a survivor with the Kagune three times at all, least about back to back, and only a couple of times two times, because I missclicked.
I have played a lot of Ghoul of late, and yeah, he is overtuned, but its really tough to iron this out, because a too big nerf will make him fall appart completely and become a laughing stock of the survivors.
The damaging hit box of the Kagune leap will for ever be a content of discussion and I think that it would help to set a lot of players at ease if this was not a hitscan ability, but making it hitscan was a conscious decision of BHVR, so its probably not that clearcut and easy to change. And giving him a bigger slowdown after canceling out of his power will make him feel super sluggish and punished him for using his power in good an creative ways and will make cool leaps in front of survivors impossible.
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All this perks were balanced around the fact that they could stack with one another, so while its true that many would be bad now and in isolation, with this change I bet that we will see lots of changes coming and the numbers going up surprisingly high here and there. Batteries included might give suddenly a +10% speed boost around completed gens, which is now a significant boost, but because it doesn't stack with anything else, its probably okay. If what if Machine Learning gave a +12% boost? With the way it has to setup, I liked to use it a lot during the time it got buffed and comboed it with Rapid Brutality. With it being such a setup perk and gens rarely getting done one after another but in tandem, I don't remember a single instance where it proged more then two times in one game.
Without stacking, the perks new itentity will be centered around its core case, and thats a good thing.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908384#Comment_3908384
Full transparency— I don’t actually think tunneling is ever fun, regardless of its success in winning. I’m a SoloQ main so I will never tunnel in my killer games because I know what it does and how it feels. But after speaking with some people who do find it fun, it’s often because of the pressure it provides. Not many enjoy doing it for the sake of doing it, though there are outliers i’m sure. I feel most people acknowledge tunneling is very unfun, but some believe it’s a necessary evil because of the pressure it provides. I was just trying to give a somewhat logical reasoning to the OPs question, not necessarily defend it. The game would be much healthier without it for both killers and survivors.
This is one of the better comments here. These days, and especially this event, gen speeds, no matter if gen rushing is involved or not, is so out of control of most killers hands, that they are positioned between a rock and a hard place. The very second they turn around from a gen, the survivor in their back jumps back on the gen. The pressure is IMMENSE!
And the only way to pry peopel away from their gens, is when their friends are in danger of dying, ie when you tunnel someone, suddenly the three others show up to body block and takeing hits. But if its already down to the last gen at that moment, your best bet is to actually turn the game into 3 v 1 and duke it out with the, now wounded, other survivors.
I always say so, the big turning point was 6.1! Before that survivors were so safe that they could play anyway they want, do chests, do totems, do whatever they liked and hang out with friends at a gen while talking.
6.1 pulled the rug off under them and for 2 days all survivors were in a kind of blind stupor and I felt really bad for them. Without DH and with killers recovering from stuns and hits 10% faster and with the added +10s gen time, most didn't saw any reason to touch a gen at all and would just let themselves get mercilessly slaughtered.
But rather quickly they recovered and this new world made them all into expert gen jockeys. Splitting up, a rare tactic preserved for A-gamers before, became the norm, and doing "gens before friends" became a viable tactic. WIth the ups and downs of gen defense perks, from Eruption to PainRes, and the counterplay shifting from Proof to MfT and back to DH, most gen regression perks are now just a shadow of their former self and don't help enough to stem the relentless tide of gen rushing and gen efficiency.
But this is just ONE part of the equation: pressure and gen defense is one thing, tunneling is another. The game is too hardly focused on snowballing. If the survivors manage to repair 3 gens durign the first chase, its nearly game over for the killer. Yeah, they can try their best, but unless they are at least an A tier killer with good gaming sense, with just one hook to their name its nearly impossible to eak out a win - so tunneling might be the only option left to salvage such a game; why should such a killer spread hooks, when the last two gens are already 30% done?
On the other hand, if a killer gets fast hooks one after another and its suddenly 6 hooks at 4 gens, with two survivors on death hook, there is no viable option for the survivors to win anymore and suddenly everyone hits the ground, immersing themselves.
The game would benefit so much from a game director AI in the background, that helps the side that is lagging behind, thus making the games more close, more times then not. We all remember this close games, we seldem remember the games were we played newby killers or baby survivors and stomped them.
People always say "why should the other side be rewarded for playing poorly?", but its exactly this potential for snowballing and "unrecoverable games", that suck the fun out of the game for both sides and that harden people and them feel no shred of empathy for the other side, only contempt and fostering the "us vs them" mentality. Its often debated if DBD is a party game or a legit e-sports titel. While the game has turned more and more competitive with each itteration of balance nerfs and basekit mechanics, it also fostered this mentality of efficiency.
If you took a run of the mill medium survivor of today and threw them into 2016 or 2017 DBD, they would look like a cheater, running loops like a pro and slamming gens like there was no tomorrow. The state of the game has breed the community into what it is today, so most problems don't have as simple as a solution as "revert this nerf" or "make that mechanic work like 2019", because the player base has changed. And BHVR should really decide what kind of game they really want, a competitive e-sports titel, or a somewhat goofy party game, but the schizophrenic attempt we got right now will only frustrate one big portion of the players base and never let the game truly blossom.
Personally I think the game should try to deliver a cool and tight experience, so I vie hard for a game directore AI that moderates the flow of the game like in Left4Dead or Vermintide, were extra special units spawn if the players are doing too good, and they find less powerups, but if they are doing super poorly might find just the right weapon around the next corner, to last them to the next safe room.
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@Rogue11 said:
Is it too much to ask for your opponent in a pvp game to have to actually, you know, AIM?
Technically, its not autoaiming, but hitscan, meaning that the game checks once is you got line of sight in the moment the killer uses his attack, and THEN the animation rolls out and plays regardless of walls and rocks and whatever. BHVR stated that they wanted to not make this part of the power a skill shot, like Huntress or Slinger, but just a hitscan, which is why this art seems to hit so brutally efficient - because it is. The balancing factor is that it can't down survivors whatsoever, its just there to deep wound and close the gap.
But the range of the grab and mark is sometimes rediculous long and could maybe tuned down a little. Kaneki is strong, and it is refreshing to see a strong killer out of the box. The last one was Singularity, and he was severely nerfed from his PTB version - so much that he was a punchingbag for survivors at release. Dracula also released extremely clunky and it took a couple of rounds of finetuning to make him worth his salt as the Lord of Darkness.
Ken Kaniki feels like such a fresh wind, with such a high skill ceiling and insane plays if you got the experience with him - but with this will come the inevitable demands to nerf him, because its "nothing but sweaty Blights, Nurses and Kens … even a Wesker or Skull Merchand would be welcomed at this point".
So yeah, he can probably tuned down little, but this must be done with a deft hand and not as a kneeyerk reaction, or he could just as quickly fall back into obscurity.
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As a proud Pyramid Head main, I am pretty torn about this situation: while yes, his add-ons are super lackluster and besides the range add-ons, there is maybe two others that do anything that could be cpnsidered viable on the battlefield.
But seeing how they handled other killers and add-on passes in the past, I think I might not be taken the risk and just let it all stay as it is,
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899796#Comment_3899796
I've never seen a perk as misunderstood or maybe as misinterpreted as StB.
The perk only moves the hook state, so if you just tunnel one person, then yeah you might have to deal with 3 hooks on that person, but the perk announces itself, exposes the unhooker, and the person using StB has one less hook state.
So chasing the unhooker, who literally screams at you that they used it, means nothing changes. You had one hook, and still have someone on second hook... If only you chase the person who screamed.
StB is a game sense and game knowledge check, which apparently an awful lot of people fail that test.
Also, in your doom scenario, if all 4 survivors run StB then no one gets any "extra hooks", they're just passing the hooks around for no reason. So apparently this isn't a second chance perk, even by your definition.
You know, we have been disagreeing a lot on this forums, but YES! I just don't get it how so many people have no idea how StB works! Every time someone complaits about it, they seem to be under the impression that the perk generates extra hook stages out of thin air, so apparently they didn't even read the description of the perk in game.
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Yeah, that happens a lot, its this urge to hurt to one you humiliated you, any way possible, and this is just a convenient way for many. Its always funny when they say "for reports for cheating incoming" when you outperform them massively or your gamesenses tell you "the scratchmarks suddenly disappeared, lets check this locker here" and they go full on "how could you know that I was in that locker? Cheater!".
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898792#Comment_3898792
They always have a choice. They just choose to take the easiest and laziest route to victory.
Like it or not, it is just the fact.Is the same true for survivors who split up and tackle 4 different gens simultaniously, or am I "tripping" for just mentioning this? Just asking for a friend.
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well, I had a different experience from the other side of the fence: most survivors rely heavily on their perks and if taken away, crumble against a good killer.
I had a lot of pretty good survivors, who just got downed in awkward ways, because they just had no meta perk loadouts and even somewhat sweaty teams with full juiced up toolboxes and flashlight jockeys, who just got stomped. I had games where I downed an already hooked survivor and nodded at them before leaving them on the ground, as not to tunnel but give them a second chance, not to generate extra pressure, and the team still lost.
I think that the survivors community is much more reliant on their meta perks then the killers, even though there are victims of this on both sides. And don't get me wrong: cracked survivor mains need no perk at all to run me for minutes on end, just because they know every single loop and tileset by heart and can run every corner pixel perfect, but most survivors are not like that.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Wiggling exists because it ensures that the killer can't just take you across the map to hook you. It's not supposed to be a consistent way to get off.
Or imagine if a Trapper or Hag could carry the survivors to the basement from everywhere on the map.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891154#Comment_3891154
have you actually ever tried playing as killer?
""I tried playing killer for a while. After winning every game with a 4K I got so bored, that I only ever played survivor, since."
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Congratilations! You were always one of the forum members whoms inside and posts I valued the most and I hope that you will still be here when I get my 7 years badge.
Do you take a DBD or just a forums sabatical? Have a good time out, whatever way you take it and see you again :)
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871326#Comment_3871326
Yours is the queen of slugging. xD
And yours is the queen of special mori. :)
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436603/nowhere-to-hide
Also this perk entirely kills any stealth (and perks that were about being stealthy) aspect of the game, back in the day you could hide near generator and it was fun as you tried to not be spotted by the killer.
But now it's meta, so killer just kick the gen, apply Pop ofc and you are instantly revealed, because why not.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869690#Comment_3869690
Nowhere to hide doesn’t make chase easier or make the game easier
Sure, this perk makes game actually HARDER for the killer.
And killers bring this perk so much because - of course - they love to waste perk slots and love their games to be harder <3
"Back in the days…"
… survivors played more casually and did totems and chests on the side.
… survivors felt safe enough with multiple layers of safety nets to fool around.
… survivors in general didn't hardcore split up and prioritized gens before everything else.
… one gen would pop per chase, till the gaming area shrunk down to size with two gens remaining.
… killers could stake out three close gens in the start and soft-patrol them.
The game has changed alot and both roles have pressured into more "perfect" and "efficient" playstyles, by the ongoing arms race, leaving very little room for error or playfulness on the side. A modern killer just hasn't the luxury of searching for a survivor behind every bush, in some games they will fail the game if they don#t find the next survivor and start a chase within 20s.
The meta of the game is ever changing and evolving and stealth now plays very much second fidel to everything else. I enjoyed the more relaxed playstyle of 3 years ago, but its gone now, and we must evaluate perks in their natural environment now, not in some artificial situation.
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@shalo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868934#Comment_3868934
Tell me more, you score Bloodpoints just by being in game?
This is the same kind of white lies, were the survivors claim "actschually I just lingered at the exit gates, to let you hit me. This way everyone gets more points, right?". Yeah, sure, all that wasted times for 200 more blood points. Uhu…
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While killers are in a pretty good spot at the moment, toxic behaviour of the other side will always be a way to curb the excitement and fun of the game. Every killer beyond their 3rd game know the painful conondrum of waiting for the egc timer to fill up, or face the survivors waiting at the exit gate, twerking at you, giving you a light show and rubbing it in that you failed to hook and kill them. Nothing wrong with being happy that you made it out alive, but really, this gets old really quickly.
So, my solution would be a general perk, thats available to all killers. it would work a little bit like Bloodwarden, in that its existence alone would influence survivor behaviour. I promise you that it would be an instant hit and easily thow some meta perk out of the top10. I know for a fact that I would equip it in perk slot 1 of every single of my killers and never take it off.
General Perk: Just Leave
Effect: when lingering in the exit gates area for longer then 40/30/20s The Entity blocks the exit gates for that survivor, they become exposed and their aura shown to the killer for 6/7/8s. The block and exposed status effect persist till the survivor moved away 40m from the exit gates. Survivors downed in the exit gate area can also be moried, but keeping them slugged for longer then 15s removes this ability and opens the exit gates for that survivor. Hitting any other survivor resets this timer.
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As someone who owns every survivor and killer in the game, this still makes me happy! This is exactly what a game like this should have implemented a long time ago and it gets my full on thumbs up.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864507#Comment_3864507
Billy is abusing his chainsaw by using it on people instead of trees, lol.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - every Lumberjack, struggling daily, with great success, not to saw people instead of trees.
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I used it quite a lot when it dropped, and it is a thing of beauty when it works, ie a killer is really hung up on tunneling one survivor out of the game and you just turn that plan on a dime with Shoulder … but for each such occurence, I had about 10 games, where the perk just sat there, doing nothing, or where I hit second stage before anyone else. Ideally you would wan't to use Shoulder in a situation where you are hookless and someone else is on second stage, so that you can quite literally "shoulder the burden" - in this regard the perk is a bit like Deliverance: awesomely strong when it works, but also comes with its own little curse attached, that increases the chances of you being hooked first/reaching second stage first by +75%.
I might run the perk again, as I think its really good and strong, but its not as easily plug and play as something like Lithe or so, you really need to get a feel when its worth to use the perk and in what situations it will do more harm then good. It also helps if you are a pretty good looper, so that you don't just feed the killer, just by using it.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm not against it in theory, but as the person above outlined- people would hate that.
A little while back we got an actual health midchapter, where the only balance/content changes were a handful of addon tweaks and the bulk of it were backend fixes- Nurse got a ground-up recode to fix a bunch of bugs, Dead Hard validation was added, iirc Doctor got something for optimisation? It's been a while. Stuff like that, though.
People hated it. Even content creators were talking about how the update was "boring" and "didn't have anything in it".
The response to a genuine health chapter would be reeaalllyyy bad, I think.
Something I think might be more feasible is to slow down content production by only having three chapters a year, and fill the extra time with one or two extra midchapters that can each have both more bugfixes/health changes and more content/balance changes. That'd go over better, I think.
What if we opted for a 4 month cycle instead of a 3 month cycle? Yeah, it would mean 1 less chapter per year, but things wouldn't be forced out at this sorta breakneck speed, BHVR would have more time to finetune and get things done and overall have more time to dedicate on game health.