HEX_DEAD_BY_AI
HEX_DEAD_BY_AI
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805547#Comment_3805547
Oh, I have 0 worry that a message from a salty survivor will result in a ban, lol.
Great! I thought it was a notification from BHVR, I didn't think it was a normal message from a toxic player 😅.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730861#Comment_3730861
Had a survivor like this during 2v8. He kept doing a little T bag after every pallet. After his last down, I did a little killer hump for like 3 seconds before sending him on his way. 2 minutes later, I get a PS message saying "enjoy the ban".
What?!! Unbelievable, BHVR has "UNSPORTSMANLIKE" in their report categories after every single match, but truly they prevent people from reporting tunneling or camping or hooking (source: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules), so why were you being warned like that?!! Hope your account is still safe, sorry to hear that.
Despite having collected surveys from players many times, despite having millions of comments mentioning these UNSPORTSMANLIKE issues, it seems that BHVR has been ignoring them for many years, which is why their ratings are dropping on Steam, and their new games are not well-received by the community because the community has lost faith.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730979#Comment_3730979
Your entire argument is that killers defending their gens, instead of tunneling or whatever, is what gets them the win. But then you think that those gen defence perks being nerfed has nothing to do with more people playing "boring," and that they can be just as strong as before while using nerfed strategies. Just looking at the math of efficient survivors vs efficient killers, a killer getting a down like every 30 seconds still isn't enough to protect gens, because 2 are popping right after the first chase, and 2 more will pop sometime during the 2-4th chase. So the killer's usually at 1 gen with 4 hooks. Why would he not want to get a survivor out of the game ASAP if that's the speed that 4 survivors do their objective? He can circumvent some chase time or gen time with perks, but then the survivors have equivalent perks on their side, and there's 4 of them.
Truth is, gen defence is pointless. You'll beat the bad survivors with that strategy, but the good ones physically can't be stopped from doing all 5. I don't want to win my matches because MMR chose me as a charity case. I want to win because of my skill, which fast gens and long chase times don't allow. So of course it looks to you like low-skill killers are winning; they barely have a chance to interact with you. But they were smart, and instead of hooking 4 people and getting nothing for it, they got 1 kill. If the survivors are too scared or nooby to hook save at the end, they get at least another kill. Path of least resistance.
Hooking is a game mechanic, and BHVR does this for a reason, to keep the game balanced, you see streamers don't skip hooking, because to get more viewers they have to make the game interesting and show off their professional skills.
Just like some people compare camping, tunneling with flashlight or looping, that is a lame comparison because camping and tunneling are performances that even newbies can do, but using a flashlight and demonstrating looping techniques is something that requires a lot of practice to master. This is also true in real life, even in major tournaments like the World Cup or the Olympics.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415746/knock-out-perk-and-slugging-playstyle
The Ghostface kit is extremely weak.
There are commonly used perks that can completely cheese the Ghostface kit, most of these perks are activated when hooking and provide a god-mode style effect.
Why would a good Ghostface….give the survivors any opportunity at all….to nullify ridiculously difficult M1 plays.…by allowing them a chance to use god-mode perks?
1/ In recent statistics, GF is in the top 10 most popular killers. He is the strongest stealth killer (especially in dark or in-house maps). He needs to be utilized his unique skill set, he can't get 4K with just normal chasing (like Trapper never uses his traps, just uses M1 to chase).
2/ To avoid further misunderstanding, the post mainly discussed the perk, not about GF (he was here just as an example of using this perk). It was clearly shown in the main title of the thread. If that was a well-normal gameplay (with other GFs), so there wouldn't be this post.
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1/ In recent statistics, GF is in the top 10 most popular killers. He is the strongest stealth killer (especially in dark or in-house maps). He needs to be utilized his unique skill set, he can't get 4K with just normal chasing (like Trapper never uses his traps, just uses M1 to chase).
2/ To avoid further misunderstanding, the post mainly discussed the perk, not about GF (he was here just as an example of using this perk). It was clearly shown in the main title of the thread. If that was a well-normal gameplay (with other GFs), so there wouldn't be this post.
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@Phantom_ said:
I hope you face others who waste your time as much as you are wasting theirs :)
That GF was the one who wasted our time by leaving us bleeding to death :).
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736376#Comment_3736376
I play to win, not toxic, but i agree, its the least fun way to play.
I really don't understand what you are arguing here anymore. You are saying tunneling and camping are bad, which we both agree, but you are saying that players are "mean" for doing it, and not complaining that the developers enable it. Like again, i simply ask you, what is your counter argument to what i'm saying?
I think, in terms of business efficiency, if those gameplay styles were completely eliminated, many unskilled killers would give up, and some situations would not be able to be handled flexibly when facing a bully team or SWF. Therefore, it only needs to be limited to a reasonable level, avoiding abuse. Recent feedback is about encouraging decent actions instead of toxic/bad ones by suitable mechanisms.
Personally, I still find it bad to overuse it in every match, because it ruins the game experience of survivors. As I compared holding-hostage players and hatch players, they will ruin the game experience of killers. Simply saying, an act that sabotages the experience of others is unacceptable, whether at a real-life party or in an online game match. Hope this is a suitable answer to your question.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Iridescent what? What are you talking about?
The answer for you was clearly discussed with 'burt0r' above.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733663#Comment_3733663
Even good swf is not that big buff though as those offering you suggest. Maybe offering giving 120% speed would be enough already to beat them if you're good. Maybe ability to mori one survivor after hooking them once etc.
It's true haha!
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735661#Comment_3735661
Again, attack the idea, not the person. Stop engaging in Ad Hominem attacks and explain to me, what is wrong with the ideas?
Sorry for being so enthusiastic in answering everything, and giving you all the clarification. But I realized that, no matter what I say, if you're the one who always wants to play 'toxic' (your habit) in every single match, you'll always have a reason (no matter how lame) for it. So you and I should stop discussing this further, lest I become known as an attacker (even though I was just the one responding to what you mentioned earlier). As this buddy said:
@A_Gamers_Dead_Body said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734740#Comment_3734740
Stop projecting. We arent tournament players restricted by ridiculous rules and we arent streamers trying meme builds or having fun with donation builds, we are ordinary players playing the game we paid for. Its not up for you to decide what is and isnt "decent" behavior. You play the game your way, I will play the game my way.
Just like when playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as toxic as you want. You're right, no one cares. No spectators, no viewers, no referee, no caster. It's true.
I do not represent BHVR so I have no right to tell you how to play decently 🙂
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@KFChris18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735661#Comment_3735661
First of all I am a caster. Casters are like sports commentators so we do not organize the leagues. That honor goes to people like Direwolf and Rey. As for links, just search DBDLeague on twitch. Vods are public and they have a youtube channel of the same name. You could also watch the Hens33 Spring Inivitational, since it uses largely the same structure of tournaments. Also, what the hell does the Blumhouse movie have anything to do with what I said earlier?
Sorry for the misunderstanding that you were referring to the Blumhouse movie DBD. My fault for skimming quickly.
I often watch videos randomly by keywords, and look for videos or streams that have a lot of views at that time. "bronx" for example, he always has high views every time he streams. He plays very well and decently. I watched tournament video recordings on YT using the keyword "tournament". That's how I view it.
So, thank you for giving me more information about that event and channel. But this information still doesn't change what I see.
As a caster, you must distinguish two situations very clearly: applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping (all the time, in every single match).
In most tournament matches, survivors are always pro bully SWF teams. What I observed with professional killers is that they prioritize protecting gens, while still putting pressure on rescue. This is completely different from the 100% toxic gameplay, such as 'consistent' camping (stand still at the hook and ignore everything else, or walk 5-8 meters around the hook even knowing the survivors are soloq and there is no rescue signal).
For normal daily matches, as some people commented above, they use "SWF" as an excuse to play toxic in every single match. They even use "pallet save, flashlight save, DS,..." (that takes practice to master) as excuses for being toxic (that a newbie can do) in every single match. If in tournaments it is 100% SWF, then in daily matches this percentage is significantly low.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735500#Comment_3735500
The author of the book is a game designer, a big one at that that is big in the fighting game community and has been in charge of design and balance for many massively competitive esports games.
But, now you are engaging in a logical fallacy by attacking the author. Attack the argument i am making. Which is simple. If you want those strategies which we both agree are unfun to go away. Then the devs need to stop encouraging those playstyles and start encouraging the healthier ones. Balance the game around hooks and chases instead of kills.
Why exactly are you fighting me on this? Can you please explain any reason you think that is a bad idea?
Haha, look at the list of games he designed, does anyone play them? And those games belong to the fighting, puzzle and boardgame genres, which have nothing to do with this. Be aware that the things stated in his book were intended to make him sell the games, but the result was still a failure.
You ask me why…?!! Hey buddy, it was you who fought me first. Read the previous comments, you are also the one who explained your bad play with the reason that survivors use pallet saves, flashlight saves, DS... And I just point out why that is a wrong comparison: your bad playstyle is the thing even a newbie can do, but survivors' stuff as you listed are things that must be practiced a lot to master.
@A_Gamers_Dead_Body said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734740#Comment_3734740
Stop projecting. We arent tournament players restricted by ridiculous rules and we arent streamers trying meme builds or having fun with donation builds, we are ordinary players playing the game we paid for. Its not up for you to decide what is and isnt "decent" behavior. You play the game your way, I will play the game my way.
Ok, it's like playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as 'toxic' as you want. I get it 🙂. Your choice, bro
@KFChris18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735493#Comment_3735493
As a matter of fact, im a caster for several leagues, so I think I know a few things about tournaments. You on the otherhand have very clearly never watched one. I suggest DBDLeague if you want to see what a top tier league looks like.
So can I ask for the records (a social link, YT, etc.) of the DBD tournament that you organized where the candidates compete to win in bad ways? And the DBD movie of Blumhouse doesn't seem to have an official release date yet, right? Anw, it's just like a LOL movie, the events in the movie cannot be compared to the context in the game match, one side is a story-based movie, the other side is game matches. Truly, many players confuse applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping (all the time, in every single match).
@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730793#Comment_3730793
I haven't been seeing sabo squads nearly as much as I assumed I would, but I've been keeping a build handy just for them on every killer I play. If they really don't want to be hooked, I'll oblige them.
"I haven't been seeing sabo squads nearly as much as I assumed I would" » » » Exactly bro!!
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3735558#Comment_3735558
Yeah same, but i dont play killer very much
Ya, we share the same experience with 'hailxsatanxeveryxday'.
@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734919#Comment_3734919
No, it is the grade that you will be notified of after each season ends, and receive the corresponding bp reward. Bp doesn't matter, but you will be informed about it.
MMR system is based on it to match players with each other.
No it isn't and never was?
What you have in mind is the old rank system. Both are dependent on pipping and depipping and the simple fact that depipping isn't no longer a thing should be a dead giveaway that grades have nothing to do with matchmaking. They are exclusively for the extra BP each month.
MMR is determined by a hidden elo value. It is officially even supposed to be individual for all killer characters. Another indicator that grades have nothing to do with it.
Matchmaking was first based on the visible ranks but got switched to an elo system a few years back because everyone ended in red/iridescent ranks and we got the rainbow lobbies.
When it got implemented it worked like a regular MMR system but ended with "pro" players being stuck in 2 hour lobbies. Then they softened the criteria and we went back to the pseudo "rng" matchmaking.
Tldr: Grades have NOTHING to do with matchmaking and are only an indicator how much someone plays each month between reset and give a BP reward.
Thanks for the information that I missed. ELO or whatever, anyway, the players matching system must still result in an even match where players will end up facing opponents at the same level, not perfectly, but as balanced as possible.
I have to admit, I have met many killers who mastered their basekit (especially the Nurse, the Huntress and the Deathslinger), and also met a few high-skilled survivors, even their chase carried up to 5 gens (sounds crazy, but it's true). Really admire them!!
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@A_Gamers_Dead_Body said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734740#Comment_3734740
Stop projecting. We arent tournament players restricted by ridiculous rules and we arent streamers trying meme builds or having fun with donation builds, we are ordinary players playing the game we paid for. Its not up for you to decide what is and isnt "decent" behavior. You play the game your way, I will play the game my way.
Ok, fine, so you finally consider yourself a mediocre player, and don't want to develop your skills. Just like when playing football in the neighborhood, you can play as toxic as you want. It's ok, I get it.
If you ask why gens fly or suffer things like many other killers crying. Here is the answer:
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734735#Comment_3734735
The book literally explains exactly what you are complaining about. I'll translate it using DBD terms instead of fighting games like the book.
Camping and tunneling over and over is a tactics close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. Why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a strategy that is used constantly? Is he such a poor player that he cannot counter such an obvious strategy? And, if for whatever reason, that strategy is extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't i be a fool for not using that strategy? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing WHATEVER MOST INCREASES YOUR CHANCES OF WINNING. that is true by definition of playing to win. THE GAME KNOWS NO RULES OF "HONOR" OR OF "CHEAPNESS" THE GAME ONLY KNOWS WINNING AND LOSING.
If you want these strategies to go away, you need to be telling the devs to start encouraging and promoting healthier strategies instead of these ones?
Why do we nerf perks like pain res and grim embrace that literally BY DESIGN force you to actively NOT CAMP AND TUNNEL in order to get value out of them? Why do we constantly lock anti-tunnel behind perks that you have to pay for instead of creating a basekit mechanic for it? Why is the game balanced in such a way that killer's start the game from behind, creating a mentality that they "have" to use these strategies to win.
Don't you think the game would be more fun for everyone, if instead of kills, the game was balanced around hooks and chases?
Is the book writer a part or a member or a fan or a player of esports? Do you play DBD? If not, then he has nothing to do with this. Books are just books, and many of them have absurd, unrealistic views, even if the author has never experienced the relevant thing. And you use it as your excuse haha.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734815#Comment_3734815
Again, i bring back the book by David Sirlin:
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
If the strategy is SO GOOD and SO DIFFICULT TO COUNTER, then wouldn't i be dumb for not using such a strategy to my advantage? You need to be complaining to the devs to encourage the healthier playstyles, and not complain at the players using them.
In short, it's still you making excuses for your bad habits. As you said "Camping and tunneling over and over is a tactics close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub". Ya, clearly, it's your habit, your playstyle from the beginning, from the first day you bought this game. And, you've never learned how to play in a decent way.
Just ask yourself: Why can other people play decently, people livestream it usually, but I can't, and I explain my bad because of this neft, because of that neft? Why do I compare things a newbie can do (camp, tunnel, slug), with things that require practice to master (pallet save, flashlight save, etc.)? Why didn't I realize the "bad play" of the survivors was the ones just hiding, holding the game hostage (hatch player)?
For your more information:
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@KFChris18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734740#Comment_3734740
Just want to add something here about about pro tournament play. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that there is no "bad play" in tourneys. If anything, "bad play" is the standard. Nearly every match without fail inolves the killer camping, tunneling, and/or slugging. It isn't bad play for the otherside to try to win! Also this obviously applies for survivors as well. Weaponizing DS, predropping pallets, body blocking and genrushing is not "bad play", its players trying to win!
Really? Do you watch tournaments? Sometimes people confuse applying pressure (when faced with a bully team) and camping. No one wants to watch a boring tournament with only bad tricks to win.
And to correct myself, I'm not the one saying that DS, pallet save, flashlight save... are "bad play", but this guy:
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733658#Comment_3733658
Its not an excuse. Nobody likes to lose, and they especially don't like to lose when the team is being super toxic, teabagging at the gates, and calling you racial slurs at the end of the game.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is good. And because of that killers are going to over index on going against that type of team. It doesn't matter if "most players are solo queue"
Imagine there was a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer permanently moves at 200% movement speed
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed
- The killer is able to mori all survivors immediately
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors repair speeds are reduced by 50%
- The killer gets max bloodpoints in all categories.
But, this offering had a 1% chance to appear in the bloodweb.
That means that statistically you'll see this maybe 1 out of every 100 games, and maybe less as some killers might not use such an offering. But, do you think that survivors would play chill all the time and just say "oh well" when they run into a killer with that offering? Or would they play assuming that every killer is going to run that offering?
Lastly, nobody flips it on the survivors side. Why is it that the killer is the one that has to "play nice" why can't the survivors "play nice" at not gen rush, or flashlight save, or pallet save, or use DS offensively etc.? Why is it always on the killer to "play nice"
And, here is "bad play" on survivors side, as my clear answer for him:
@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733663#Comment_3733663
Hahaha, if that's not justification then what is?
Well, you know, because you think like that, you think other people think like you. But the reality is different. And the rate of 10-15% that I gave is a typical one. Think:
- Most survivors are soloq, and even when playing as a survivor, I rarely team up with other 2-3 person SWF teams.
- When I played as a killer, only 10-15% encountered SWF, and it's unclear how many of them were good
In short, just admit that you can't win with good play, so you have to play in bad ways. Let's just admit that many people still play much better than you (in fact, it's on TTV and YT, you can see for yourself), why do you keep trying to make excuses?
About such things as gen rush, flashlight save, pallet save, DS, etc. Oh wow, how can you compare like that? What a smart comparison!
- Those things are the means to survive, just like killers also have the killing means. Remember, killers also have very strong basekits and very effective perks.
- Using a flashlight, using a pallet, looping... these are skills that take a lot of practice to master. On the other hand, camping, tunneling and slugging are things that even a newbie can do well.
- "Great skill checks" also require skill to be successful every time.
- "Bad play" survivors are people who do nothing, don't have the guts to do anything, they don't do gens, don't rescue, just hide, holding the game hostage. Most of them are hatch players. Surviving that way is considered "bad play".
- "Nice play" survivors are people who enthusiastically participate in their survival mission, even when they are already in phase 2 and injured.
- "Nice play" killers are people who can win 4K in a decent play.
Many people have said that there are killers who are used to bad play at the beginning. So when they win a lot that way, they match with high-rank survivors and then they complain why is this and why is that? A lot of killers complain about why genes fly, but when they play as survivors they can't do the same thing haha. Likewise, a lot of complaints about looping, but they can't do the same. The problem lies in skills.
Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?
I summarize:
- Flashlight save, pallet save, looping,… Those are skills that need a lot of practice to master. It can't be compared with camping, tunneling and slugging which any newbie can do. So, people want to watch, to sub, to be a fan of teams or pro players who have skilled performance.
- "Bad play" on survivors side are considered hatch players, or holding-hostage players. They only hide, don't want to do anything, ignore teammates, leave teammates to carry or die, and then try to survive and escape alone. If there are at least 2 of them in a trial, it brings an extremely bad experience to killers. The trial can even take long an hour.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734723#Comment_3734723
Sorry, not to sound hostile but "Iridescent" what? The grade in the lobby screen?
If yes, that has nothing to do with skill, only amount of playtime each month. Especially nowadays with depipping being gone.
No, it is the grade that you will be notified of after each season ends, and receive the corresponding bp reward. Bp doesn't matter, but you will be informed about it.
MMR system is based on it to match players with each other. Many pro killers have explained that, when someone uses bad tricks to win at low MMR, they will increase to higher MMR, then they match with higher skilled survivors, they cannot win 4K and they start blaming in this way, in that way. On the survivors side, I've matched with many hatch players, who never try to do gen, only hide somewhere, do cycle of picking & dropping their item, waiting for teammates to carry everything, or to die, then escape themselves. They escape that way, then they go up to higher MMR, meet better killers who have the technique to handle those situations, then blame about killers' basekit, add-on, etc. too OP.
@Neaxolotl said:
Increase recovery debuff to like 75% and remove the invisible aspect of it, now it'll be not that bad for solo que while being really useful against SWF
Great idea, bro!! I love that 😎
@Marc_go_solo said:
Firstly, I'm not condoning this style of gameplay. However, I believe there are a few reasons, including:
- Believing this is the only way to win. This is down to either insecurity, what they have been led to believe online and so on.They have become convinced they can only win using this method.
- Anger: Previous experiences against survivors who have either been poor winners, or simply outplayed them and played honourably, may have warped them into wanting revenge on others, grouping them alltogether. They are probably the weakest emotionally.
- For the memes. They do this so that they can enjoy the responses, either in chat or posting online. Normally, this is usually for entertainment (or angertainment as some now call it).
- Tactical: This is when it becomes apparent this is either the best option available or the survivors put themselves into this vulnerable position. This tactic doesn't result in bleedouts as that Killer will mop up the mess afterwards. The latter occurance is down purely to survivor error.
In the case you showed, this probably falls into the 2nd or 3rd category. It is to be noted slugging (with exception to the fourth point) is normally easy mode. In pubs, even against strong teams, this isn't necessary to win. If I can win with Trapper using randomized setups vs meta players, then so can many others. I feel it's psychology which prevents people from doing so.
You're right!! Your explanation is very clear 👍️
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@NerfDHalready said:
i've always found saying devs favor one side ridiculous but i'll start feeling that way if they ever decide to nerf knock out of all perks. that would be the evidence for me that they are trying to force a killer's hand and make the game play as survivors ever wish, nothing to do with killer decisions.
first they buffed otr because they wanted ds out of meta and make otr an alternative, and now with buffed back ds we have both for some unknown reason.
they added gen block and anti camp mechanics
they nerfed all meaningful hook-based gen slowdown
they buffed sabo like crazy
and now we are crying about knock out and slugging when it's a pure skill issue to get 4 man slugged, by a ghostface too. i'll say it like some survivor players love to say: what do you want the killers to do, stand still and let you go?
- 1st: basekit helps GF undetectable
- 2nd: this map, GF found us before we could find teammates (we were all soloq)
- 3rd: found teammates, and get exposed while healing (unless they have full recovery)
» » » Ya, you're a pro soloq survivor, I see 🙂!!
Seemly many weak killers cry about nerf this nerf that, while hundreds of TTV/YT every day show the opposite. Truly, no one wants to sub and watch a guy who only does bad tricks (even a newbie can do) to win. So, just watch how they play, they live usually.
I don't see slugging as a big problem. And here is an example of decent use of 'Knock Out', not abuse it to ruin the whole game.
@zarr said:
I think the issue in this case more than anything else was facing a Ghostface on an indoor map, all the more so as a solo group. Ghostface is actually incredibly strong on indoor maps, even highly-coordinated tournament teams with precise call-outs that practice indoor vs. Ghostface regularly have trouble against it and get 4k'd. Him slugging with Knock Out just added to the issue, it does not itself constitute the issue. Him supposedly choosing to bleed you out after having downed all of you, well, there is something to be said about the possibility of people unhooking themselves, or having things such as Flip-Flop and/or Power Struggle. But I agree that it is pretty obnoxious and something the devs should long have addressed, such as at the very least with the option to let the Entity end your suffering and surrender.
As for Knock Out (and Third Seal) specifically and the slugging playstyle at large. Well, first of all, while it isn't actually nearly as "useless" against SWF teams as it is sometimes made out to, it does have to be noted that it is certainly much less potent in those scenarios, and that keeps the build and playstyle in check because killers will rarely employ it given the ever-looming threat that the people they are facing are on external means of communication. Even in general, slugging-oriented playstyles (with and without Knock Out/Third Seal) are incredibly rare to encounter. It really does not pose a big problem. I play quite a bit of DbD, and I almost never encounter this on survivor. Neither do the people I know and watch. The one time in a blue moon this happens, you could even just refuse to play, go next (disconnecting if need be) and be on your merry way to dozens if not hundreds of matches without encountering it.
But I will even go further and say slugging strategies are a welcome change of pace and gameflow and make for very engaging and exciting matches, for both roles. There is very little downtime of just going through the motions of picking up and hooking people/being carried and twiddling thumbs on hook, no boring camping of hooks, no tunnelling someone out that can make the match a foregone conclusion early on, constant chases and pressure, unique gameplay interactions and decisions revolving around finding and playing around slugs, when to leave them and when to aggressively try to help them and how and so on, and the game is never over until it is because the survivors can recover fully even from a full slug, and this constant tension and possibility for the match to turn around is very exciting, as opposed to the many stale, foregone conclusions that can be present in normal matches where people are on death hook or dead with barely 2 gens done, someone is getting camped in basement or otherwise impossible to be saved, et cetera. Plus I have never understood why people dislike being on the floor to begin with, as opposed to being on a hook - you have more agency and things to do while slugged than you do hooked.
I for one would wish to encounter this playstyle more often. For anyone here looking for a fun way to employ slugging, here's a basic go-to build I like to use (on M1 killers, of course): Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Barbecue and then 1 slowdown perk, such as Corrupt, Ruin, Surge, Sloppy or the like. What you do is fairly simple: You down someone, and if you get an Infectious proc, you slug to chase them; if you don't get a proc, you hook them and let Barbecue lead you to your next targets instead. Obviously over the course of the match situations will arise where your decision-making will be a bit less simplistic than this and can stray from it, but this basic play paradigm will get you far and it will be fun and viable. Ultimate Weapon can also be used in Infectious' place. You can also of course go for a slugging playstyle without Knock Out. I don't think it's viable on M1 killers to do so ("viable" in the sense of allowing you to consistently win, if winning means to kill as many survivors as possible), but "winning" isn't everything - the low-downtime, constant-chase playstyle is very fun, and if you don't care so much that some survivors escape sometimes, it's an enjoyable way of playing and a good way to maximize your chase time and practice chasing. And on stronger, snowball-ier killers, it's a viable strategy even without Knock Out or Third Seal, just using chase and slowdown perks.
You said "i've always found saying devs favor one side ridiculous but i'll start feeling that way if they ever decide to nerf knock out of all perks." » » » So, you're a 'KNOCK OUT' player like that GF?
Just like many killers yell about "survivors only hide, don't do gens, take an hour in the match". That's it, that's a bad play on the survivors' side. It ruins killers' experience. On the other side, there are things that also ruin survivors' experience. Only people who play both sides know that, and not blaming the perks, the nerf. Many survivors yell about killers' basekit, addon, perks, etc. Practically, people call this a killer-side game. Meanwhile, many killers yell about DS, flashlight, sabo, pallet… and make comparison like this:
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733658#Comment_3733658
Its not an excuse. Nobody likes to lose, and they especially don't like to lose when the team is being super toxic, teabagging at the gates, and calling you racial slurs at the end of the game.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is good. And because of that killers are going to over index on going against that type of team. It doesn't matter if "most players are solo queue"
Imagine there was a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer permanently moves at 200% movement speed
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed
- The killer is able to mori all survivors immediately
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors repair speeds are reduced by 50%
- The killer gets max bloodpoints in all categories.
But, this offering had a 1% chance to appear in the bloodweb.
That means that statistically you'll see this maybe 1 out of every 100 games, and maybe less as some killers might not use such an offering. But, do you think that survivors would play chill all the time and just say "oh well" when they run into a killer with that offering? Or would they play assuming that every killer is going to run that offering?
Lastly, nobody flips it on the survivors side. Why is it that the killer is the one that has to "play nice" why can't the survivors "play nice" at not gen rush, or flashlight save, or pallet save, or use DS offensively etc.? Why is it always on the killer to "play nice"
As I have the answer in a comment above. Even a newbie can do camping/tunneling/slugging. But things like sabo save, bodyblock save, pallet save, flashlight save… it must be done at the right time, and it needs practice to master that technique.
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@A_Gamers_Dead_Body said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733789#Comment_3733789
It's not up to you to decide whats "bad" or not. That players problem…they think the only right way to do something is THEIR way.
That's right, I don't have the right to decide that. Because, a decent player realizes that this is something they should not do, which is why we often don't see such bad actions in tournaments, as well as in high-sub channels. Just like not being a hatch player, not being a holding-hostage player is respecting your teammates' and killers' experience.
@ranbuta said:
Simply entering the locker before being attacked can nullify the knockout.
Ya, it's true 😎. I took a screenshot of a reply above:
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733739#Comment_3733739
Its not a matter of "good play" or "bad play" You are thinking like a scrub, and i don't say that in like a mean way, i mean it in the technical sense. I would suggest reading the free e-book by game designer David Sirlin called "Playing to Win"
Here is an excerpt from that book that i think is showing exactly what i'm talking about:
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
The point is, this idea of "what is good play" will not go away until the devs start incentivizing that "good play" if you want tunneling and camping and slugging and all the "toxic" ways killers can play to go away, the devs need to encourage the good kinds of play and stop balancing the game around kills.
Haha, I don't care about the book, it has nothing to do with the issue here!
Firstly, You used "SWF" as an excuse for bad play, and I replied that you were making excuses because the "SWF" rate was not high in all matches (even when I play as a killer or soloq survivor in high MMR).
Secondly, you compare "camping, tunneling, slugging" with "flashlight save, pallet save, DS, looping, etc.". I also pointed out that it was a lame comparison. I took a screenshot of that reply here:
And thirdly, I asked you "Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?" in the previous comment, and now, you pulled out a book with a "name" as your answer haha.
Just, all you wanna say is "I WANT TO WIN, SO I'LL DO EVERYTHING EVEN BAD PLAY JUST TO WIN", am I right?
Think of football, bad things often happen in unorganized matches, but in professional ones, no one wants their image to be bad.
In e-sport tournaments, if candidates/teams perform bad tricks to win, no one will watch. If TTV-ers or YT-ers do those bad things, then who will sub for them?
Agree that everyone wants to win the game, but winning in nice ways requires skills.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Actually it is very significant. When you get to high MMR you will understand better.
Who is your reply for?
If it were for me, so here is mine: Iridescent -
@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733615#Comment_3733615
There is no ladder in dbd, so there is no ""bad" play style, some are more suited for the once a month rank that only matters to you.
But if you play dbd for fun, then however you enjoy it is up to you.
@A_Gamers_Dead_Body said:
The way I see it, its just another way to play the game. Maybe the player got bored of hooking or dealing with hooks so they elected to play a different way.
There is no RIGHT way to play killer, the goal of killer is to…kill. If they can manage to bleed you out then I say good on them for being ingenuitive.
What it seems like is that YOU just dont like being on the receiving end of it.I play both sides:
- As a killer, I don't do bad play, many times I do mercy in the late game. I know how survivors feel if I camp, tunnel and 'KnockOut' slug them.
- As a survivor, I still do gen and rescue even when I'm in phase 2 and injured, I'm not a hatch player or survive alone (ignore teammates, holding the game hostage). I know how killers feel if survivors want to hold the game hostage or play as hatch players: "Wth is going on, where are they? Why doesn't anyone do gens?".
You know what I mean?
Bad things are on both sides. And BHVR should have a mechanism to encourage players not to perform such acts.
I agree that those are the solutions when dealing with bully SWF teams (which only account for a low % of all your trials). But if you abuse it in every single match, it has a totally different meaning.
Read more answers here which I replied to 'Reinami'.
@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733663#Comment_3733663
Hahaha, if that's not justification then what is?
Well, you know, because you think like that, you think other people think like you. But the reality is different. And the rate of 10-15% that I gave is a typical one. Think:
- Most survivors are soloq, and even when playing as a survivor, I rarely team up with other 2-3 person SWF teams.
- When I played as a killer, only 10-15% encountered SWF, and it's unclear how many of them were good
In short, just admit that you can't win with good play, so you have to play in bad ways. Let's just admit that many people still play much better than you (in fact, it's on TTV and YT, you can see for yourself), why do you keep trying to make excuses?
About such things as gen rush, flashlight save, pallet save, DS, etc. Oh wow, how can you compare like that? What a smart comparison!
- Those things are the means to survive, just like killers also have the killing means. Remember, killers also have very strong basekits and very effective perks.
- Using a flashlight, using a pallet, looping... these are skills that take a lot of practice to master. On the other hand, camping, tunneling and slugging are things that even a newbie can do well.
- "Great skill checks" also require skill to be successful every time.
- "Bad play" survivors are people who do nothing, don't have the guts to do anything, they don't do gens, don't rescue, just hide, holding the game hostage. Most of them are hatch players. Surviving that way is considered "bad play".
- "Nice play" survivors are people who enthusiastically participate in their survival mission, even when they are already in phase 2 and injured.
- "Nice play" killers are people who can win 4K in a decent play.
Many people have said that there are killers who are used to bad play at the beginning. So when they win a lot that way, they match with high-rank survivors and then they complain why is this and why is that? A lot of killers complain about why genes fly, but when they play as survivors they can't do the same thing haha. Likewise, a lot of complaints about looping, but they can't do the same. The problem lies in skills.
Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?
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@zarr said:
I think the issue in this case more than anything else was facing a Ghostface on an indoor map, all the more so as a solo group. Ghostface is actually incredibly strong on indoor maps, even highly-coordinated tournament teams with precise call-outs that practice indoor vs. Ghostface regularly have trouble against it and get 4k'd. Him slugging with Knock Out just added to the issue, it does not itself constitute the issue. Him supposedly choosing to bleed you out after having downed all of you, well, there is something to be said about the possibility of people unhooking themselves, or having things such as Flip-Flop and/or Power Struggle. But I agree that it is pretty obnoxious and something the devs should long have addressed, such as at the very least with the option to let the Entity end your suffering and surrender.
As for Knock Out (and Third Seal) specifically and the slugging playstyle at large. Well, first of all, while it isn't actually nearly as "useless" against SWF teams as it is sometimes made out to, it does have to be noted that it is certainly much less potent in those scenarios, and that keeps the build and playstyle in check because killers will rarely employ it given the ever-looming threat that the people they are facing are on external means of communication. Even in general, slugging-oriented playstyles (with and without Knock Out/Third Seal) are incredibly rare to encounter. It really does not pose a big problem. I play quite a bit of DbD, and I almost never encounter this on survivor. Neither do the people I know and watch. The one time in a blue moon this happens, you could even just refuse to play, go next (disconnecting if need be) and be on your merry way to dozens if not hundreds of matches without encountering it.
But I will even go further and say slugging strategies are a welcome change of pace and gameflow and make for very engaging and exciting matches, for both roles. There is very little downtime of just going through the motions of picking up and hooking people/being carried and twiddling thumbs on hook, no boring camping of hooks, no tunnelling someone out that can make the match a foregone conclusion early on, constant chases and pressure, unique gameplay interactions and decisions revolving around finding and playing around slugs, when to leave them and when to aggressively try to help them and how and so on, and the game is never over until it is because the survivors can recover fully even from a full slug, and this constant tension and possibility for the match to turn around is very exciting, as opposed to the many stale, foregone conclusions that can be present in normal matches where people are on death hook or dead with barely 2 gens done, someone is getting camped in basement or otherwise impossible to be saved, et cetera. Plus I have never understood why people dislike being on the floor to begin with, as opposed to being on a hook - you have more agency and things to do while slugged than you do hooked.
I for one would wish to encounter this playstyle more often. For anyone here looking for a fun way to employ slugging, here's a basic go-to build I like to use (on M1 killers, of course): Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Barbecue and then 1 slowdown perk, such as Corrupt, Ruin, Surge, Sloppy or the like. What you do is fairly simple: You down someone, and if you get an Infectious proc, you slug to chase them; if you don't get a proc, you hook them and let Barbecue lead you to your next targets instead. Obviously over the course of the match situations will arise where your decision-making will be a bit less simplistic than this and can stray from it, but this basic play paradigm will get you far and it will be fun and viable. Ultimate Weapon can also be used in Infectious' place. You can also of course go for a slugging playstyle without Knock Out. I don't think it's viable on M1 killers to do so ("viable" in the sense of allowing you to consistently win, if winning means to kill as many survivors as possible), but "winning" isn't everything - the low-downtime, constant-chase playstyle is very fun, and if you don't care so much that some survivors escape sometimes, it's an enjoyable way of playing and a good way to maximize your chase time and practice chasing. And on stronger, snowball-ier killers, it's a viable strategy even without Knock Out or Third Seal, just using chase and slowdown perks.
The way you describe 'Knock Out' + 'Barbecue' shows you're not overusing it. I appreciate that!
And yes, I agree, as I wrote on the topic, slugging is not the big problem. The problem is 'KNOCK OUT'. And here, we have Ghostface with Night Shroud + revealing-aura perks.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730958#Comment_3730958
No matter what perks and addons Ghostface is running he's very weak, much less unbreatable. Ghostface actually needs significant buffs, even when running this build that you think is super strong. I've never had issues with aura builds, Ghostface or Knockout in solo queue.
But there are still people who think Ghostface is weak 😶, and can handle this situation as a soloq survivor.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733658#Comment_3733658
Its not an excuse. Nobody likes to lose, and they especially don't like to lose when the team is being super toxic, teabagging at the gates, and calling you racial slurs at the end of the game.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is good. And because of that killers are going to over index on going against that type of team. It doesn't matter if "most players are solo queue"
Imagine there was a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer permanently moves at 200% movement speed
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed
- The killer is able to mori all survivors immediately
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors repair speeds are reduced by 50%
- The killer gets max bloodpoints in all categories.
But, this offering had a 1% chance to appear in the bloodweb.
That means that statistically you'll see this maybe 1 out of every 100 games, and maybe less as some killers might not use such an offering. But, do you think that survivors would play chill all the time and just say "oh well" when they run into a killer with that offering? Or would they play assuming that every killer is going to run that offering?
Lastly, nobody flips it on the survivors side. Why is it that the killer is the one that has to "play nice" why can't the survivors "play nice" at not gen rush, or flashlight save, or pallet save, or use DS offensively etc.? Why is it always on the killer to "play nice"
Hahaha, if that's not justification then what is?
Well, you know, because you think like that, you think other people think like you. But the reality is different. And the rate of 10-15% that I gave is a typical one. Think:
- Most survivors are soloq, and even when playing as a survivor, I rarely team up with other 2-3 person SWF teams.
- When I played as a killer, only 10-15% encountered SWF, and it's unclear how many of them were good
In short, just admit that you can't win with good play, so you have to play in bad ways. Let's just admit that many people still play much better than you (in fact, it's on TTV and YT, you can see for yourself), why do you keep trying to make excuses?
About such things as gen rush, flashlight save, pallet save, DS, etc. Oh wow, how can you compare like that? What a smart comparison!
- Those things are the means to survive, just like killers also have the killing means. Remember, killers also have very strong basekits and very effective perks.
- Using a flashlight, using a pallet, looping... these are skills that take a lot of practice to master. On the other hand, camping, tunneling and slugging are things that even a newbie can do well.
- "Great skill checks" also require skill to be successful every time.
- "Bad play" survivors are people who do nothing, don't have the guts to do anything, they don't do gens, don't rescue, just hide, holding the game hostage. Most of them are hatch players. Surviving that way is considered "bad play".
- "Nice play" survivors are people who enthusiastically participate in their survival mission, even when they are already in phase 2 and injured.
- "Nice play" killers are people who can win 4K in a decent play.
Many people have said that there are killers who are used to bad play at the beginning. So when they win a lot that way, they match with high-rank survivors and then they complain why is this and why is that? A lot of killers complain about why genes fly, but when they play as survivors they can't do the same thing haha. Likewise, a lot of complaints about looping, but they can't do the same. The problem lies in skills.
Do people admire and follow 'FAKER' because of his skills in LOL, or because he plays badly? That's it!! Do you get it?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730797#Comment_3730797
Because you can't know how the game is going to go until it is too late. You need to stop asking killers to play nicer, and start asking why they aren't. It is because if you play nice, and you are going against a SWF sweat squad, then they bully the hell out of you the whole game, and by the time you REALIZE that it is a SFW sweat squad, there is no coming back from it, because they probably finished 3 gens in your first chase.
So the only option for killers is to play as hard as they can, assuming that everyone is a sweat squad until proven otherwise. The problem, is that by the time you realize that it is not a sweat squad, a survivor probably already gave up, they have 0-1 gens done, and the game is effectively over.
But now you see the dilemma. Why should i play nice when it might result in me getting bullied?
You see the problem?
What needs to be done is the very thing tru3ta1ent constantly says. They need to incentivize hooks instead of kills, and start incentivizing chases instead of tunneling and camping. You do that, and tunneling and camping go away. And, in the egregious cases, we can have basekit mechanics like the AFC in place that prevent it.
Ya, the key word is "incentivize". I also wrote a thread about this. I totally agree!
About your explanation "by the time you REALIZE that it is a SFW sweat squad, there is no coming back from it" »»» So, my answers for you are as I do in a few comments above:
- "When I played as a killer, only about 10-15% of my matches were SWF. And I'm not haunted by that 10-15%, I still maintain a nice playing style. I don't care too much about winning, as long as the trial is interesting ('ggwp'), and if I'm lucky I still reach 4K."
- "At the lobby, if the killers guess the foes are a bully team, and the killers think they can't handle them decently, they can go for whatever bad playstyle they want. But if they do it all the time, all of their trials, that's just their excuse 🙃." And: yes, you can't predict accurately every time, but that can't be used as an excuse.
That's it. As I see it, many people seem to use the "SWF" as an excuse, while that percentage is only a minority, and not all SWF groups are good. And, when I play as a survivor, I rarely coop with a team of 2 or 3. Most of them are also soloq.
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731170#Comment_3731170
Wait you're telling me to watch people on Twitch and Youtube to learn how to play? Bro I have like 16.000 hours on DBD I don't need any tutorials. You're completely missing the point.
People hate to get camped, tunneled, or to play against Pain Res + Pop every game. Yet those strategies and perks are needed if you want consistent results vs good players. I could beat any solo survivor team with random perks, but if I were to play my own SWF, who all have around my hours, you'd be able to count the hooks on one hand. Because their objective is around 4 minutes (5 generators) and my objective is 3 kills (9 stages) which I would not be able to do in 4 minutes. As my friends won't be going down instantly over and over like 90% of the DBD playerbase.
I never EVER want to see you complain about tunneling and camping. As your solution is "Just put on Pain Res + Pop". And even mentioning Call of Brine, which increases regression from 100% to 125% for a whopping 60 seconds (which is 3.75 seconds extra regression haha!). If you can even let the generator regress for that long!
16k hours doesn't mean you play well, I've seen many high-P killers still keep playing toxic. Meanwhile, there are new P0-P1 killers with at least 1 green perk but they play very nice, and their skills are very good.
You complain about regression, you say you don't want to use regression-related perks and want to use other interesting perks. So I just listed some perks to say that you shouldn't be too greedy if you want this and that, it's impossible. Only 4 slots to put perks in, you can't have everything as if you have 16 slots.
But why did you suddenly turn 180 degrees? Up there you clearly complained a lot about regression, so you must be playing toxic. Now you bring in your friends (because they play SWF well) as an excuse. What a contradiction haha!!
Ya, you said, "I could beat any solo survivor team with random perks". Well, even for a newbie with some basic perks, if they play toxic, it's still normal to get 4K.
When I played as a killer, only about 10-15% of my matches were SWF. And I'm not haunted by that 10-15%, I still maintain a nice playing style. I don't care too much about winning, as long as the trial is interesting ('ggwp'), and if I'm lucky I still reach 4K.
In the example where you drag your friend in, you still play the role of a killer, which proves that you rarely play the role of a survivor. If you complain about regression, why do gens fly, etc. well, try playing soloq survivor, when you face a good killer (especially the Nurse), you will see how difficult it is to complete 5 gens and escape. It's not for nothing that this game is called "killer side". Even the new meta, which increases sabo quicker, is still mostly useful for SWF, as some survivors' perks have been nerfed.
In short, I tell you to watch more TTV and YT because there are pro players there, I don't know if they have played more than 16k hours like you, but they are definitely better than you, so they can still reach 4K and still maintain their nice style. Play nice, even when they face a bullying team. So, all your words are just excuses.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731252#Comment_3731252
So full sabo squads shouldn't exist either then?
Survs abusing boil over in rpd should have been banned as well?
Both "sides" can play "toxic".
It''s a game with no ladder of ranking so just enjoy your own game, want to be a slugging face camper go for it. Want to tbag and flashlight/sabo spam go for it.
When you stop caring about results in dbd, you'll enjoy it more.
At the lobby, if the killers guess the foes are a bully team, and the killers think they can't handle them decently, they can go for whatever bad playstyle they want. But if they do it all the time, all of their trials, that's just their excuse 🙃.
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@Starr43 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415746/knock-out-perk-and-slugging-playstyle
someone probably already said this but hop in a locker if you’re going to go down. It counters knockout so your aura will never be hidden.
Haha just nearly like when I don't want to be a victim of 'Tombstone', I hop in a locker 😂. I get it, bro, but it's dependent on the situation at the time.
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@SleepyLunatic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415746/knock-out-perk-and-slugging-playstyle
why did you blur your perks?
I don't want people to get lost in this discussion, so I've hidden the 4 names and perks. The results are already in the 4-survivors down icons on the left. We were all soloq, different perks combo, and faced the Ghostface ('KnockOut' + 'exposed/undetectable' basekit + revealing-aura perks).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
If people really hated slugging, they would be making forums posts, telling BHVR they shouldn't be buffing toolbox sabotages, because sabotages encourages slugging.
But let's be super real here. Many survivors don't hate slugging… they only hate slugging when it's the killer's choice to slug. Many survivors are 100% ok with slugging when the survivors are forcing the killer to slug.
Ya, as I said in the main post, slugging is not a big problem. The main problem is 'Knock Out' 😀
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731551#Comment_3731551
I was rather saying that someone will have to pay for everything. For a nerf to the entire regression, another useless perk and another killer who will be forgotten in two weeks. This is simply the law of balance in the universe. When you take something, you must give something in return.
And who will pay for all the SWF? Of course not. All the anger of the killers will fall primarily on the solo survivors.
It's not me who wants easy games.
I want to have a chance to win in a fair game. To win in the current mode, you must consider any lobby as SWF. It means acting accordingly and playing as if your life depended on it. Because if you make a mistake in your calculations, you simply won’t be able to catch up with the SWF if you played with them as solo survivors in a relaxed manner on a fan build.
Yes, it's harsh and unfair, but what can you do. This is the current game under the yoke of SWF. Always prepare for the worst.
I'd love to go solo mode with hooks, where they would add built-in Decisive Strike, Off the Record and Unbreakable for the survivors to protect them from camping, tunneling, and slugs. Because it guaranteed me fair games without connection, where I can play with hooks. And those who still want to camp, tunnel and slug would go to the SWF mode.
I also have a similar rule regarding solo survivors. Any killer camper will not prove otherwise. That's if he doesn't come for me personally. So somewhere the killer is camping with a survivor.
Ya, if SWF are identified in the lobby, precautions are necessary. You can choose how to face them.
As I see when playing as a killer, just around 10-15% of all of my trials are SWF or a bully team. Regardless of whether I win or lose, the toxic players always are. So imo, I don't need to care much about that.
Just, I don't play PTB, so I don't really know what can happen in the coming meta. For now, I still do good at around 3-4K without bad play.
Over 70% of my trials are as a survivor, so I understand how survivors feel when playing as a soloq. So, when I play as a killer, I don't want to do bad play. Sometimes I'm sure of the win, so I gift them mercy.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731260#Comment_3731260
Yeah I know some killers are really strong on slugging every onryo used to slug to eventual get the condemn mori. I haven't faced them anymore though it did seem like lot of effort still.
Well my build will debend on update but if sabo becomes meta I might have to use those perk I actually meant iron grasp instead mad grit. I don't know what the situation is on ptb how bad it is? As Im on console. But I just want be able to hook.
I also like to hook people. I enjoy their scream 😀
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731293#Comment_3731293
Depends on how much I want to play slug. Until the promised increase in sabotage. I had enough of a mixed slug without a knockout. Now I'll probably switch to a pure slug build with knockout. Just like during the threat of the anticamp system during the PTB.
So that you understand.
Mixed slug
Clean slug
This game is mainly a with SWF side. All other sides are just setting up a SWF under the dictatorship. It sometimes amazes me how people ignore this bull in a china shop. All the misfortunes of solo survivors and killers occur because of a SWF. Solo survivors literally suffer for the sins of a SWF, and killers preemptively hit any lobby in fear of running into a SWF.
The only way out would be to create a separate regime.
Solomode. Every 1-2 players receive a built-in Decisive Strike and Off the Record for each hook stage for 120 seconds until a noticeable action is made. They become more powerful if you take the perks of the same name. Plus, in case of a slug, when there are 2 survivors left, each acquires Decisive Strike, Off the Record and Unbreakable without noticeable actions.
Leave all other tactics in the form of camping, tunneling and slugging to a mode of 3-4 people with a bot, where there will not be all the built-in protections, since a SWF will easily win against such killers.
Where are these good killers? When tested, they turn out to be not so good, but simply kill survivors who refuse to hold M1 in any incomprehensible situation or sabotage the game by removing themselves from the hook. And all you need to win the game as a survivor is to hold M1 in any unclear situation. One survivor per generator. Each one must have a separate generator for repairs, and not everyone in 3 suffers from 1 generator.
I always keep these two pictures as visual evidence of why survivors lose. Because nothing has changed in solo play over many years of playing. I really respect the Bond perk because it allows me to avoid many problems in the game, as well as understand what to expect from the team.
Finally, I catch this as the key idea in your paragraph: "… fear of running into a SWF."
I don't have any fear of facing them. I know they'll make my trial more fun, I'll have at least 1 decent chase and I can ignore all the gens. Enjoying the fun of the match is the most essential thing to me. So I don't feel angry when I lose. If you face toxic-words players, they will offend you in chat dialogue regardless of whether you win or lose, they always have a reason to have toxic manners. So why care so much about those who are in the minority?
Like when playing 'Indie' games, do you have fun playing [Very] Easy Mode?
Have you ever searched "bully squad dbd" on YouTube? I mean, winning 4K with nice play is possible.
"SWF side"? I think this word is suitable for all the 'co-op online' games, not just DBD. In comparison to 'single play' [soloq], this game is a "killer side" as people said a lot. It's easy to understand because to confront 4 survivors, to create pressure, to create suspense, the killers must have strong basekits and effective perks.
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@Stroggz said:
Slugging playstyle helped me overcome game burnout, to be honest. All he hook perks are way to obnoxious, all the ways survs have to deny you from hooking and the time you waste to do it.
I don't have any problem to face slugging killers, as long as they don't use 'Knock Out'.
As a killer, I still want to hook people, it's fun to hear them scream. I don't see any fun when leaving survivors to bleed to death.
The most important thing to me is a nice game. I don't always need to win (either as a survivor or a killer).
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@Rudjohns said:
This is the best and easiest way to play killer
Just equip Knock Out and Ultimate Weapom
Down a survivor and immediately open the nearest locker for the full effect
exactly, that's it haha!! 😂 Some other perks can include: Lethal Pursuer, A Nurse's Calling, Coulrophobia, Awakened Awareness (carry then drop), Darkness Revealed, Deerstalker, Face the Darkness
I still don't know how 'Blueberry' he can confidently handle it as a soloq as he said in a comment somewhere above.
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@[Deleted User] said:
A slug is the most beautiful thing that can happen in the life of any killer. When killers realize how useful this strategy is in everyday play. The time savings are simply colossal. Just think, how useless is it to hang survivors on a hook? When could this wasted time be spent on something really important. I'm talking about the chase. The most fun part of the game. The eternal chase is all that is needed for the happiness of all parties.
The concept of hooks is outdated in its essence and brings only disappointment to all parties. But ditching the grappling hooks in favor of the slug meta. You take all those perks out of the equation on both the survivor and killer side. Killers no longer have to worry about all those regression perks like Pain Resonance and Pop. Moreover, the developers themselves are going to nerf them so that the killers can try something more interesting.
In the end, grappling hooks only benefit survivors by giving them too many upgrades, but eliminating grappling hooks from their game. Killers will be able to render survivors' perks useless and only at the cost of a nerfed regression meta. You also won’t have to worry about all the toxic weapons the survivors have in the form of flashlights and sabotage. Everyone has long known that they are taken by people who want to make the killers unhappy. I've seen all these 5 second lobbies many times, survivors changing equipment and character.
The good news for survivors is that they will not be victims of camping and tunneling. What does it mean that a survivor will be able to spend the entire match in the game, and not be the first to be taken out in a short time. To me, it's a small price to pay for a full-fledged game with chases instead of camping and tunneling.
I declare with responsibility as a certified Doctor-Slug. By adopting the slug meta, you will feel much happier than living in a meta of 4 regressive benefits and the eternal race for hooks.
Actually, it's better to watch this video. It completely reflects the entire path of how killers reach such a life. Just insert what you don't like here. Be it camping, tunneling, Nurse and much more. You yourself created these monsters and now for some reason you don’t want to play with them.
"I declare with responsibility as a certified Doctor-Slug."
I've met many killers who have the same playstyle as you (perhaps for the same reason), but if you don't use "Knock Out", it's no problem, bro.
However, this game is always considered "Killers side", never "Survivors side", you know? and of course, there must be reasons to call it that.
People have many many reasons why they camp, tunnel or slug. The truth is that good killers still have 4K without toxic play.
Many killers blame gens flying. I think because they have never played survivors and never faced good killers.
As I said, I don't consider 'slugging' as a big problem, as long as the killers don't use 'Knock Out' to slug.
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@BbQz said:
You give players the capability to ruin each other's games they will gladly take it and embrace it. Dbd has a freedom problem that slowly being fixed since release. The devs apparently don't have a person who "plays nasty" and there test games are groups of friends with unspoken rules you can see it clearly by looking at the game from release to now.
While almost any other game has limits" like the creators predicted people will be abusive so they block off your teams spawn from the opponent dbd doesn't even consider that a issue slugging tunneling camping. They are allowed because they are "strategies" but I know a not so insignificant group of people don't care about getting a 4k as much as ruining the time of 1-2 players as being able to flex power over some one is a very killer like mind set this game is very primed and ready for groups of people on both sides of the fence going in with the only goal of making some one of as many people as possible miserable.
So yeah survivors and killers shouldn't have the power to ruin people's games remove and replace theses mechanics
I've never heard "camping/tunneling/slugging" considered "strategies" in any tournament.
All formal strategies I heard are all about "protecting the gens", and the most popular one is "3 gens".
But as you said, they can be implicitly understood as informal strategies. BHVR can not remove these toxic playstyles because there are still many noob killers who don't have any other way to win, and many of them can't reach even 1K. I still hope they'll fix 'Knock Out' as well as release some effective mechanisms that encourage players not to do toxic play.
If BHVR completely removes these toxic playstyles, they may lose a number of players. However, if they don't somehow restrict it, they can lose other potential players as well. I invited my friend to play with me, but he decided not to buy the game after a few times he saw me being ruined.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730958#Comment_3730958
The issue is more likely the chase times. You've got an indoor map with tight rooms which are really the only ones ghostface is good on. If he can down you quickly knockout is going to hurt, but it would hurt a SWF as well. But if someone gets a good chase (or on some maps just a long sprint), the survivors will have plenty of time to find each other and heal up which the killer will have made no progress from hooks.
In my experience as a pure soloq survivor, knock out is annoying because it just slows down what was going to happen. Games we lost, we would have lost anyway if the killer hooked us, and games we won we would have won anyway. It's an annoying perk to be sure, but even if someone on the team doesn't have the right build it's not unbeatable if the matchup is otherwise even.
Great comment, bro!
Even when we found teammates, we were exposed while healing.
'Night Shroud', it was difficult to determine where the killer was while finding dying teammates.
'Knock Out' really makes sense.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730960#Comment_3730960
You frame it as if Bond/Empathy only exists to counter Knockout and offer no value if the Killer doesn't bring the perk which is definitely not the case especially in Solo Queue where knowing where your teammates are is important.
Remember, you mentioned that "I'm not sure what perks you brought, but Bond, Aftercare and Empathy both counter Knockout". It means you want people to bring these perks to counter 'Knock Out'.
And I replied "I usually use perks related to gens speed or chasing. Sadly, I can't always bring some other perks just to counter Knock Out".
And now you mention Bond/Empathy as if are powerful, and as a soloq I should bring it all the time, LOL.
I think 'Archol123' has the answer for you.
I know what benefits Bond/Empathy brings, but this thread is about 'KNOCK OUT' playstyle, and not all people bring Bond/Empathy, just like me.
In a normal match, I can guess where my teammates are by looking at the dying aura, then person-on-hook aura, and then the doing/leaving-gen icon, then the chasing icon. But first I have to see the dying teammate's position to guess.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3731175#Comment_3731175
I never talk bad to people in the chat it's not even worth it but some people feel like they didn't do anything unless they insult you, unfortunately there's alot of people that way in this community, I understand when people are frustrated but telling people to end themselves and all that nonsense is absolutely unacceptable no matter what they did to you in the game , it's just a game at the end of it all , I'll gg and be humble win or lose
it's so nice, bro 😎
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@The_Krapper said:
Sometimes slugging is fun, I like to run knock out with 3rd seal on Billy or Oni , I won't lie though whenever I run this build is when I see the most toxic end game chats directed at me calling me everything under the sun and hoping I die
You can vent your anger from time to time, but hopefully you don't overdo it 😓.
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730982#Comment_3730982
Not blaming nerfed perks at all. I was talking about the game at base. Regression is 4x slower than progression. When you kick a generator it regresses at 25% repair speed. Meaning every 4 seconds you regress, a single survivor can undo it in 1 second.
You can hook everyone 2 times, and still they repair generators as fast as at the start of the match. Even after getting put on a meathook twice. So why would you not go for the same survivor and decrease their progression by 25%?
There is no reward for hooking. The guy is talking about bloodpoints!! Dont make me laugh I have gathered like 2-3 billion bloodpoints during my years playing. I just want a fair game to play where I have a chance at winning when I'm playing well instead of being forced to always pick boring gen regression perks!
Ya, he talks about bloodpoint, I get it. I also don't care about bloodpoint. However, the hooks always have their meaning/point.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance, Pop Goes the Weasel, Surge, Call of Brine, etc.😑
??? Don't they mean anything???
You don't want to pick 'boring' (as you said) regression perks, you want to pick many other interesting perks (such as revealing-aura perks, exposed perks, oblivious perks, exit gate perks, etc.) but still want to have high regression speed?? What the…, bro?? Don't be too greedy, bro. If so, please think about what happen if all survivors want to pick chasing/escaping perks (DS, Dead Hard, Boil Over,…) while still wanting to have high progression speed, and even high-speed selfcare?
You can't choose them all, bro.
As I said, I still see you blame a lot for regression while still wanting to have many other effective perks. It means that you don't know why the gens fly, and you have to choose the bad play just to win.
As either a survivor or a killer, winning is not the most important thing to me. What I want is decent chasing and decent play. I can lose as long as I have fun with my opponents. I want to see the word 'GGWP' in the chat dialogue.
As I said, I've seen many good killers who can get 4K and have no need to camp, tunnel or slug. Many of them also don't use regression perks. Why don't you watch TTV more to learn how they protect the gens?
My main killer is The Artist, and I know how to use my crows to protect the gens and deal with good looping survivors. Perhaps, you chose the wrong killer who didn't fit your playstyle. Or perhaps, you didn't know how to make good use of the basekit.
You can also search such as 'Deathslinger/Nurse/Blight/… montage dbd' (any killer you want) on YouTube to see how well they use the basekit.
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@Chaosrider said:
Slugging was always an issue. Knock Out, Deerstalker, Third Seal … this playstyle is super old and still allows to circumvent the intended gameplay. People going for it from start of the trial are just focusing on making the game as annoying as possible. And devs still think its fine to have such a toxic mindset.
Agree bro 😫
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730969#Comment_3730969
The link to my stream is on my profile if you want to watch, I stream regularly. I've got about a 68% win rate right now in solo queue. The vast majority of the time I just run meme builds with no exhaustion perk.
ok bro 😎
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730959#Comment_3730959
No reward for hooking people? The whole sacrifice score category awards points for hooking and sacrificing survivors. Just knocking them down doesn't reward many points at all.
Ya, many players always blame the nerfed perks, while good players still obtain 4K with nice play.
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@Nick said:
There is no reward for hooking people. People who are on death hook repair generators as fast as people who haven't been hooked. If you want to get rewarded for hooking survivors you have to bring Pain Resonance or Pop. They have extremely boring effects but you are forced to bring them because your regression at base is laughable (25% of survivor repair speed). You regress in 4 seconds what a single survivor can repair in 1 second....
These perks will get nerfed next patch, giving you even less of a reward for hooking (seperate) people. Killer players will be looking for alternatives.
I'm also looking for other perks which can help you level this regression/progression gap. But I found that Surge and Eruption block important center generators extremely fast, making them unreliable. Even when you're not actively "3-genning", when survivors are attacking the same generator over and over they will force you to block it eventually. Also Surge only works with basic attacks. And Call of Brine adds a whopping 3.75 seconds extra regression (that is if you get to regress the generator for 60 seconds minimum) , making it more of an info perk than actual regression.
I might start looking into slugging, with slugging perks. Maybe boring for survivors? But what alternative would you suggest to me
You said: "Maybe boring for survivors?" » So, I have to ask, do you get bored playing that way, as a killer role?
The only thing I can suggest to you is to try watching some live streams on TTV, or videos on YouTube, to see how good killers do their job with nice play.
I've faced many excellent killers, they protect their gens extremely well. Many players who tend not to protect gens will cause gens to fly, then blame it on the nerfed perks.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730958#Comment_3730958
No matter what perks and addons Ghostface is running he's very weak, much less unbreatable. Ghostface actually needs significant buffs, even when running this build that you think is super strong. I've never had issues with aura builds, Ghostface or Knockout in solo queue.
I don't know how you can handle it with your confidence in soloq. I usually bring gens-speed or chasing perks, I don't know which perks you bring. I don't know which perks my teammates bring in the trial until it ends.
In my case, that map, one by one down, and we couldn't find each other before the killer found us. And if we could find, we have no time to heal. If he hadn't brought KnockOut, there wouldn't have been anything to post this thread.
If you excellently can handle this case as a soloq, I really want to watch your TTV.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730950#Comment_3730950
You can if you think Slugging is going to be a big problem. I run Unbreakable every match and while I don’t get value out of it every match, I like knowing that I have it. It’s also come in clutch plenty of times to warrant it a permanent spot in my build.
Unbreakable can only be used once. I usually use gens-speed or chasing perks. Knock Out prevents people from seeing their dying teammates. The killer would find us before we could find where our teammates were lying. And if we could find, we wouldn't have enough time to heal them. Imo, as long as there is no Knock Out then slugging is no longer an issue.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730853#Comment_3730853
I'm not sure what perks you brought, but Bond, Aftercare and Empathy both counter Knockout. If you're playing solo queue, I believe Bond and Empathy are decent choices. So it's no different from the killer bringing aura perks and you didn't bring distortion, am I wrong?
I usually use perks related to gens speed or chasing. Sadly, I can't always bring some other perks just to counter Knock Out. I'm a soloq.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730873#Comment_3730873
Exposed base kit or aura revealing perks is pretty irrelevant imo. Most Exposed base kit killers are already very weak killers in general and if a killer is running aura perks he's not running gen perks, so the gens should be flying. Aura revealing builds are more for meme builds than builds you actually plan to win a lot with.
If you meet the guy Ghostface in the case of my photo, you'll see that combo is a very big problem. I don't know if SWF can handle it, but as a soloq, it is unbeatable. Starting with Lethal Pursuer, one by one we fell very quickly because he would find us before we could find where our teammates were lying, no time to make the gens fly.
Imo, slugging is not a big problem, exposed basekit + revealing-aura perks are still fine. The problem is 'KNOCK OUT', it makes sense.
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@Huge_Bush said:
Boon: Exponential will be a great counter to slugging builds. They can’t get value if you can crawl away and get yourself up. Tenacity will also become more useful if the new meta will have more slugging.
I personally have no problem with slugging play styles. What I do have a problem with is having everyone slugged and the killer just letting everyone bleed out. I just wish the devs would reduce the bleed out time by 50% when everyone is down and have no way to get up.
Ya me either, slugging is not a big problem. However, as a soloq, I can't always bring Exponential or Bond to counter Knock Out.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730855#Comment_3730855
I dont really think it has something to with "feeling" whether or not you can force a one for one when doing the Sabo or even get the Sabo and get away... Either it is possible or it is not.
Yeah, I won't discuss this aspect, I only have trouble facing SWF and the bully soloq teams. Anyway, I respect your opinion.
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@Blueberry said:
It's extremely good. It saves you pick up, carry and hook time on every down. Which people don't realize is a lot of time and pressure lost. People tend to overestimate how devastating it is in solo queue and underestimate how good it still is against swf.
I don't necessarily think there's an issue with the perk at all, but if people want it equalized for solo and swf we could drop the Blindness entirely and replace it with a very heavy recovery speed slow down and being healed off the ground slow down. Essentially the goal here would be to make it waste just as much time getting them off the ground as it would have wasted with their team running around looking for them.
Ya, it's not a big problem in case SWF, and killers have no 'exposed' basekit, and don't bring revealing-aura perks.
As a soloq, most slugging cases I've encountered have been fine.