Have I missed something? Why is deliverance being nerfed?
Since when was this perk such a problem to need a nerf. I thought it was really balanced, if not on the weaker side.
I didn't think this perk was that bad to warrant a nerf. Have I missed anything?
Comments
I’m not sure what everyone else’s experience with that perk is, but in my lobbies it feels almost cursed. The survivor who brings it usually ends up being the first one found and hooked.
I can see how it could be really strong in a SWF, but that’s true for a lot of perks, anything tends to become more powerful when used by coordinated players. That’s why it feels like a bit of an odd choice to nerf.
While it can definitely turn a game around, I’ve found Unbreakable to be a much bigger and more consistent game-changer in my matches, especially given how common slugging is.
the perk is egregiously strong in specific game circumstances in a way that warrants being looked at, none of which are relevant to the element of the perk actually getting nerfed lol
What circumstances? And couldn't you say that about a lot of perks currently?
2 minutes seems a bit much, because a lot can happen in that time. Also with Vigil nerf it will help less for the Broken effect. But we'll have to see how it works in testing. Personally I don't use Deli because if I wait too long to unhook myself a solo queue teammate is well on the way already…
Like why double the broken time I would have rather added half more to test how it works. I feel doubling it will not be healthy for the perk at all.
Its a free unhook that gives you borrowed time so basicly if your in endgame collapse its a guaranteed out
I mean… And? It is not like they address this with the Nerf.
It's not free. You still have to work for it by safely unhooking another survivor without being the first one caught.
And maybe it's just me but if the killer wasn't able to find the survivor and hook them earlier since the perk only works on first hook, then I don't think they should get the kill. I think the survivor should be rewarded for making it to endgame without being caught.
it's incredibly and uniquely powerful in coordinated 4stack play since it allows an unhook whilst the others remain on gens or reset, this isnt practical in soloq given the amount of communication necessary but the perk is a staple in comp and pubstomp premades for a reason.
it's also arguably problematic as a total solve for endgame, making it impossible for the killer to respond to the perk in the slightest and creating gamestates where the match outcome can be 100% decided long before play ends which is not interesting to be on either side of imo
a longer broken duration doesn't change either of those two things. an actual solution would be for deliverance to forfeit unhook protection, which offers counterplay in comp scenarios where its expected to be used and doesn't make it a free win in endgame whilst still being useful for its actual intended role.
This.
I am running Deliverance in a 2 man SWF and I dont see the Perk as being that bad. When it comes to me still having Deliverance in Endgame - yes, this can happen. But it is rare.
And in those rare circumstances, I feel that it is the Killers fault that there is still someone with Deliverance and no Hooks left in Endgame. Because either this Killer decided to not chase me or was outright tunneling. And I think this is the Killers fault in this case.
I've had Deliverance players with no hooks get hooked on purpose in end game in order to waste my time and let their team get to safety. Doesn't make me mad. It's clever. Hats off to them. But God forbid people acknowledge they were outplayed.
So many other perks are great in a swf but that doesn't mean the perk itself is a problem. The perk only activates after getting a safe unhook meaning the survivor actually has to work for it to get the effect and can be wasted if hooked first. The perk has a fine risk vs reward factor that makes it balanced.
Most people don't make it to endgame with this perk active and if you do I think that's a fine reward for basically playing with 3 perks the entire game. Arguably the killer should have at least hooked everyone at least 1 before endgame. If they can't do that then that's on them. This just unnecessarily hand holds killers who don't deserve the kill at all.
I also don't believe that this perk is suddenly meta or problematic even though it's been in the game for many years without issue even with the introduction of endgame and the basekit anti tunneling changes.
In my opinion this perk is fine and has been fine all this time. No need for it to be changed at all.
The Deliverance nerf is not a surprise. HOW they nerfed it, is a head scratcher.
It's not free if you made it to End Game unscathed. Just saying.
Same song and dance as always. You have to balance survivors around what they could THEORETICALLY do with the maximum amount of coordination, clock callouts, and perfect play. But you can't balance killers around winstreaks. Those are people who are just good at the game and is unrealistic to expect people to play at that level, aside from the hundreds of CCs who do.
Wicked does the same thing and nobody talks about that.
Probably because when used well it can completely destroy the killer's pressure. A self-unhook is one of the strongest abilities you can get because it negates the need for anyone else to come save you thus buying a lot of gen time for your team.
That said, it's still a risky perk either way and you may not get to use it so 120 seconds of Broken might be overkill especially given Vigil also being nerfed. I think 90 seconds would be sufficient
Because it's one of the few half-decent survivor perks left.
Deliverance is one of the strongest perks in higher end/coordinated play. Practically every comp game runs it and is arguably the most impactful perk in those games.
If you don’t hook the Deli player first against a good team, you lose so much pressure when you hook them because you wasted all that time hooking while the other 3 were in no danger. And the Deli player may even use it aggressively with anti-tunnel perks to waste more time, especially in a good coordinated group.
However for the average player, it’s not as good. Still a good perk, but there’s better options for you. You can’t use it as aggressively, you can’t tell your teammate to not waste time heading over, and you have to fight with your team for the unhook.
I honestly agree with them the perk could use a nerf, the issue is that this change isn’t the way it should’ve been. It has almost no effect on the people that actually make it powerful, yet less skilled players running it will just be more of a liability.
I agree with this. Deli wasn't nerfed properly to stop it's more abusable features from being abused. Kind of like how they are nerfing Thrill of the hunt rather than nerfing the abuser, Jason. A lot of that going on, babies being thrown out with bathwater in a fashion that won't fix much. Coulrophobia being nerfed to 30% makes it nearly worthless for common builds, but still useful to the people who would abuse it, sluggers. It's a whole mess.
Yeah that's the funny part
yes that's what the post you quoted says
I just edited it oops as you posted lmao, my dyslexia showed itself, sorry <3
Wicked is looking way better rn lol. As long as you make sure you're hooked in the basement you get to unhook yourself not be broken and get 20 seconds of aura read and it doesn't care if you get hooked first.
With Deli you could wait out the minute of broken but two minutes pretty much ensures the second hook state is coming sooner rather than later. It's still fine but it's no longer a 5 star perk probably a low 4 or high 3.
you hide using self preservation unhook a single person and if you get hooked in end game you get a free out. used it a few times and im sorry its insanely strong
It's not an issue at all on solo queue. On a comm squad who knows what's going on and min/maxes to the extreme? Yeah it's brutal. Imagine a killer perk equiv "After 1 gen has been completed your next gen kick action regresses the gen by 100%. Can only be used once per trial". Is it so bad? Is it so OP? Nah, not against the killer who blindly kicks without thinking. But what about vs the killer who is min maxing to the extreme and keeping track of the 3 gen they want to keep, patrolling efficently, and going out of their way to keep a particular zone locked down? Seeing a gen go from 75%+ to 0 is awful. Deliverance is that but for survivors. Against most, and against solo queue it is nothing/not a real issue but against a team on comms unless you go out of your way to tunnel then it's a pretty obnoxious tool.
Edit : This harkens back to the old OOO argument. For those not aware old OOO functioned as a "perma wall hax on the killer, but they get perma wall hax on you". Obviously, extremely broken on swf and a nothing burger on solo queue. This perk was one of the most broken perks in the game back in the day and BHVR justified it for a very long time without nerfs because "the guy who brings it in, usually dies most of the time". Entirely negating that the benefit is yes you die but 3 of your teammates get wall hack callouts until you are dead for the entire game. Certain perks are bad in solo but absolutely busted in swf. Just like old OOO , deliverance shines in coms and with plans on swf.
Tbh I think deliverence only needed to shut down once gates are powered and endgame starts because just like ds before the deli gave survivor easy trade and then escape because of gurantee unhook that with 15 seconds of endurence with haste made essy escape plus sometimes some bodyblock.
If old deli would turn off once endgame starts just like ds or otr then it would be kinda balanced perk, still very strong.
Anything can be problem in hands of coordinated swf but in heneral deli was problem in endgame where survivor eho had it or wasnt hooked yet could make save by trade and then save himself for guarantee and have easy escape while others gave him bodyblocks if needed because they werent injured because they didnt have to get injured in giving save.
On killers side nurse especislx before blinks were made special attack is reason why killers cant have some perks good like weskers aura perk and for survivors its swf.
Kinda lame to blame the killer for not hooking you when he didnt maybe had a chance to do so especialy when your friend can help you with saving your first hook till you get deli, lame.
Deli is top perk because it worked st endgame even when you pulled a trade without it being active you just needed to be not hooked and then it was easy escape especialy sgsinst weaker killers that often have half of the hooks or even less then stronger killers because their kit sucks and doesnt give then much.
Hooking all survivors doesnt prevent deliverence killer must hooked the right one before he unhooks anyone but how can he know that when he cant see perks of all survivors? Just lame blaming thats like me blaming survivors for getting shutdown by noed because they didnt cleansed all totems before finishing last gen compleatly same thing, how can they know killer has it if its not pig or frosty eyes trapper or bubba with agi+iron grip.
If the Killer is either not good enough to catch me before or decides to tunnel someone else… Yes, this is the Killers fault.
By this logic noed is totaly skilled perk because if whole survivor team isnt able to remove all totems then its their fault to get destroyed by it.
As I mentioned above killer has no idea you run it and even him getting you doesnt fully prevent you from using it if he didnt get you before you get unhook.
Your “just get good” explenation here doesnt justify why this perk sucks to deal with as killer and needed some change.
I still think it would be fair perk (kinda) if it would just turn off in endgame like ds or otr does.
Look, I know that you dont really have arguments and that you are only discussing for the sake of discussing. But I will bite this time:
No, NOED is not a skillful Perk. And cleansing Totems is also extremely bad counterplay for such a Perk. Wasting time for a Perk the Killer might not even have will just result in not being able to reach Endgame anyway, which would make NOED also obsolete for the Survivors.
And last but not least:
Except that the Nerf to Deliverance would do nothing against its use in Endgame… Lets be real, people are only fine with a Deliverance Nerf because it is a Survivor Nerf, most people did not care about Deliverance before at all.
No arguments ok if you lack your mind to think just write it straight down, no shame.
For comparison who cares if its fun its by same logic you call one side “their fault” if they dont get rid of it but they cant do that easily because killers have no idea that one particular survivor has that certain perk deliverence in this case.
Same with noed you have no idea so you can just guess and there is something survivors can do but its just not fun or that good well thats same as for the killer to counter deli by your words “killers fault”.
Last thing……. How in the hell wouldnt what I suggested didnt make deli hell to deal with in endgame its only time where this perk shouldnt work honestly. How it wouldnt work? You know ds dissables when last gen is done even when you were unhooked right before it got done and had it activated so how this same mechanich wouldnt work for deli please explain?
Who cares its survivor perk, thrue ovepowered part of this perk was that it worked in endgame and made killers last kill super unstable, swf can abuse anything but atleast endgame should be part where strong second chance perks like ds,deli shouldnt work because they make escaping easy or 15 seconds of endurence with haste after unhooked this just proves devs dont play their game on decent degree just against bots and fresh players.
Would love to know why this was downvoted so much.
I'll give this a shot.
I didn't downvote it, but it's structured strangely and where it ends up up doesn't really follow from how it begins.
If it started with the last paragraph, then made the contrasts more clear between the first to third paragraphs it would read better (while it is strong in these situations…however in these instances). Because right now it sounds like you think what they are doing is a great idea until the end. Also moving the third paragraph earlier helps as that is a much larger portion of the player base thus putting it deeper in the discussion seems to be avoiding it.
Basically, if it was written in the reverse order the message would have been clearer.
You'd lay out the most important part first - 'no impact from the nerf, even if one could be justified', before laying out the most common issue 'not a problem most of the time', before moving onto the exception when it could be an issue needing addressed 'comp and the explanation on how it can be really strong'
Also starting off on 'comp' is frequently a bad way to start the explanation as many people discount it (which I think is generally true given they have their own sets of rules and scoring).
Thanks for the response, but I meant I would like to actually discuss WHY people disagree, not a breakdown of why the way I talk is odd. Probably should've made that clearer.
I haven't seen enough deliverance tbh, but I guess people hated the option to trade for free unhooking yourself. On the other hand it's side buff as killers now won't have clear visual about when you ds timer expires. I never ran much of it but I can see it being nerf and buff.
I'm more dissapointed about call of brine, nurses calling "buff" same as with survivor perks where it reminds me of last doctor buff. 0.8s to 0.75s. Moment of glory got shadownerfed while ago, as it used to deactivate once you were healed and after very long time they patched it so it deactivates if you are not fully healed before downed. Same with clean break, passive heal of 45s is still nothing crazy, you can't use it in chase. It's to be efficient and 15s won't make much difference in fact that you will feed killer powers for literally be greedy to get someone heal you for 16s. Apocalyptic inguenity is getting buffed but Mandy said 2 chests and 4 seconds which is current live version so I have no idea what buff it will actually received but it's fragile pallet that requires a lot of side objective for pretty much nothing. They had spark at the pallet and big X, then they removed the spark and left the X on. So if the killer sees big x on from 10m the pallet won't do much anyway for the hard requirement. It can be one chest to activate and the perk would still be god-awfull.
Repressed alliance was never really a survivor perk and they increase the timer rather than decreasing it which would be an actual buff. Like give killer free DMS, great survivor perk innit… technician I don't even know why is getting buffed. They can remove the downside and it still would be a perk only for begginers or people with dog-ass internet. Save the best for last ought to lose stacks only on basic attacks and leave the stacks as they are so few killers that are already quite good can't two-tap people. If you remove losing stacks on obsession by special attacks it would still benefit a few killers that are already not super popular.
Judgment looks cool though, kinda looking forward towards this chapter, perk are crap for now but we'll see. Hope they gonna make some perk SFX effects like they did with Houndmaster and Taurie Cain. Would be cool and fit well this chapter.
I don't think these are comparable. Deliverance isn't free. The survivor still has to work for it by getting a safe unhook to get the effect. you're example doesn't do that.
That's fair, make it require two hooks then. The point is not the activation condition but that once per game perks that are meta will always be extremely strong for swf compared to solo. Unbreakable plays, decisive strike at the perfect time, Etc. You absolutely can still do these solo but for a swf on comms it's significantly easier to use the effects to turn a game around or clinch an escape. I was trying to create a similar scenario for killer when really there's no perk like that currently with the closest examples being coup or pop but they're not quite the same