Make a killer version of Vigil
Vigil is one of the most divisive utility perks available to survivors. While it doesn't directly improve repair speed, healing, or chase potential on its own, it reduces the duration of nearly every temporary negative status effect by 66%. In exchange for a single perk slot, Vigil can significantly increase the value of several other perks and mechanics throughout the match.
Its strength comes from synergy. Vigil is most commonly paired with exhaustion perks like Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, and Balanced Landing, allowing survivors to regain access to these powerful chase tools much sooner. It also shortens the duration of many other temporary effects, helping survivors recover from killer pressure more quickly. Although it requires dedicating a perk slot purely for support, it can dramatically increase the effectiveness of an entire build.
If Vigil is considered a balanced perk, then I think there is a strong case for a killer equivalent.
Instead of reducing the duration of negative effects, a killer version would increase the duration of temporary effects applied to survivors. This could include effects like Blindness, Oblivious, Hindered, Exposed, Hemorrhage, Mangled, aura reveals, and other time-limited debuffs. Just as Vigil amplifies the value of survivor perks without creating any new effects itself, a killer counterpart would simply increase the value of killer perks, add-ons, and powers that already inflict those effects.
At its core, the concept is the same: one side can dedicate a perk slot to making temporary status effects wear off faster, so it seems reasonable that the other side could dedicate a perk slot to making those same types of effects last longer.
Comments
Wouldn't work, sadly. I like the idea, but the reason Vigil is so strong is that it's AOE that can be built around via exhaustion builds. Killers would need more perks that inflict exhausted than they have now in order to make as much use of an anti-vigil. I'd probably still run it on and off, but it would be inherently weaker on killers.
Nothing wrong with it balance wise. Just assign it the same value as Vigil at increased 66% tick-rate.
Just nerf Vigil.
Sounds like AI.
Vigil is a counter to killer effects, so buffing those effects would just nerf everyone that does not have Vigil.
If Vigil is considered a balanced perk, then I think there is a strong case for a killer equivalent.It's widely not considered balanced by the community.
At its core, the concept is the same: one side can dedicate a perk slot to making temporary status effects wear off faster,Sure, there's nothing wrong with this in concept.
1: Implementation - Vigil at 20% would be too weak, 40% seemed okay, 66% is probably too strong. A perk like you suggest would have the exact same balance issues. This is an issue not about whether a perk idea is conceptually okay, but where the numbers would best balance (true for all perks).
2: Variety of killers - This is a standard difficulty of comparing survivors to killers. The perk not only has to be balanced around all the possible killers who could use it, but their addons - the survivor side only has to worry about possible perk synergy (item pool is pretty limited and doesn't add much outside the items designed to clearly benefit them). That's a huge additional layer of difficulty for actually making a perk like this.
so it seems reasonable that the other side could dedicate a perk slot to making those same types of effects last longer.It's an asym. Both sides are radically different, just because something works for one side doesn't mean it works for the other. In this case I could see such a perk existing, but its a bad rationale to get there.
im not some stinking, lousy, cog sniffing, bolt chugging, bolt brained, wire-neck, byte huffing, waferheaded, tin skin, grease cricket, circuit loving, code skull, spring neck, low volt, water wasting, property value waster, soulless, chromy, spark donkey clanker AI D:
Language.
You'd have a perk that directly effects killer abilities like Clown Bottles, which isn't something the devs want. This would be a similar case to old tinkerer.
lol
Glint has a point here. I mean I see nothing wrong with base kit adjustments from perks since diminishing returns from perks interact with basekit, but the dev perspective clearly is wanting to avoid this sort of behavior.
Devs said it was a balancing nightmare because they'd always have to think if it was balanced with tinkerer and without. I'd imagine they'd think the same thing here. Is Freddy's snares balanced both without the perk and with it?
I'm curious what the pick rate of vigil would look like if they moved the exhaustion reduction to another perk. I feel like the problem with vigil is that it's a good perk that also happens to reduce killer status effects on top, rather than that being oppressive in and of itself.
Vigil should be a boon and not affect exposed.
We don't need a killer version.
Honestly either just nerf vigil to not affect exhausted or nerf it down to 30% faster recovery. Its biggest problem is it enhances the strongest set of perks in the game so much while also affecting stuff like anti-heal, exposed, hindered, oblivious and blindness in an AOE for teammates as well. It's just TOO loaded of a perk to exist in its current state. The nerf they gave it to remove stacking was the least they could have done to the perk after they buffed its effectiveness by 220% which is insane to think about it like that.
Oh yeah make it unable to affect hindered from killer powers like Clown and Freddy since we're going the route of adding "basic" and "special" breaks for perk activation requirements.
Honestly id like to see something like this if nothing else. Personally don't really care about vigil all that much, but nothing killers have really buff status effects so it'd at least be neat to have and try.
I can't imagine they did. With Vigil freddy's snares are damn near non-existent.
Absolutely not a boon on the surv side. That would enhance the range, and allow it to stack with other boons. It's silly to think of buffing vigil that way, whilst also saying 'we don't need a killer version.'
I'd be good with that. It's just too much now and it hitting basekit anything shouldn't happen. Either take exhaustion off of it or nuke it down a bit.
Making it a boon would not be a buff. It would have to be set up, it would have a fixed location and it could be snuffed. The lack of mobility would make up for the extra range. I don't think it stacking with other boons would be an issue, unless you'd care to address specific examples.
Also I think the lingering effect should be lessened (boons linger for 2/3/4 seconds if at all) or eliminated entirely. 15 seconds is an eternity when I applied to cooldowns/status effects.
Sure, I can specify.
It would be a buff because boons hold a range of 24m static, whereas Vigil holds 16. That's a 50% buff in range from the current Vigil. Vigil does not need a 50% buff, but I am not ignorant to the 'it is static now' nature. However, Vigil is most useful when it can hit multiple survivors. If you coordinate a team and arrange the boon appropriately, you can assure that anyone working in a specified area will gain the benefits. That's a considerable buff. It's harder for teams to coordinate and update people on their present location within 16 meters than it is to plop down a totem.
I don't personally care all that much if totems can be snuffed, as killers (short of sacing a perk on shattered hope) have no way to permanently shut it down. It can just be replaced over and over again ad nauseum - and given how strong vigil is, it's worth it to do so.
As to the boon interactions, the ones that particularly gruff me are circle of healing (I know I can't believe I'm saying it either) and Shadow step, and dark theory. You could establish an entire 24m radius bubble of the map under which survivors have secured stealth, haste, faster status and exhaustion recovery, and heal faster if tagged. This makes the boon a required snuff if the Killer wishes to engage. Otherwise, you tag someone, they take injury bonus and disappear with no aura read or scratch marks, get healed faster by their team, whilst the killer is likely being distracted.
Vigil being a boon would just be a mistake, until they address boons versus totems. The idea of Killers not being able to flat out break totems the same way survivors can really makes the asymm balance of that particular mechanic difficult to deal with.
Killers already have something that's kind of worse than Vigil and you might not like to hear it:
Lightborn, I know it's a waste of a perk slot but it outright denies the other side any blinding item or perk value. Vigil on the other hand doesn't deny debuffs entirely, just makes them less effective.
Could Argue Enduring is vigil like also, on pallet stuns. One of my fav perks coz I love punishing same side pallet stuns.
It's also why I love vigil, I hate crowd control in games of any kind. plus it's the closest thing we have to a debuff cleanser.
I've used the perk even when it was 30 percent, but if it goes back to that the stacking needs to come back IMO, it's been one of my most used perks since forever coz of the support style component:
it's generally at 40ish percent escape rate (where the game is aimed to be balanced at), my main build I use is in the top 4 slots, given this also includes pre-buff, I've used it for years.
in comparison my last 30 days which was mainly event queue is sat at one of the lower percentages of the perks I've used, hyperfocus stake out at the top.
I would very much like to see some actual stats regarding vigil, coz balancing off of vibes for a perk that's been in the game for like 8ish years is kind of wild lol ngl. You all didn't complain about it back then, why we all complaining about it now?
To be fair: I was complaining about it then, too. 😂
Fair enough lmaoooo
I am just genuinley curious to know how powerful it is in the worst case scenarios? If that makes sense, coz as you can see I'm not really experiencing it on my end.
I think the danger of Vigil is only represented well when two conditions are met:
A) Killer is using a status effect build or basekit
B) Your team is making use of the AOE Effect and/or running exhaustion alongside.
If you face, say, a huntress with no status effects then you're not gonna get much value. Which, I think, is part of the problem. Vigil existing makes killers less likely to run status effect builds. So it become difficult to track and compare rather quickly, to your point.
Lightborn only effects flashy saves which arent so important in grant scheme of things while vigil makes exhastion perks stronger and reduces hinder and exposed effects which are main effects from some killer powers like clowns,freddys,ghostfaces and is nerfing them 24/7 while lightborn only removes one thing survivors can do but doesnt make saves undoable (you can still go under pallet or window if your friend has some kind of stun perk).
Comparing lightborn to current vigil is like comparing krasues exposed perk to noed, its just wild.
I think if you make it 200% recovery it could work as a boon.
I disagree with you that a 24m static Vigil boon with either a 4 second or lingering effect (standard for already existing boons, part of my last post ignored) is nearly as useful as a mobile 16m always on perk with a 15 second linger.
I don't think the stacking is an issue because we already see players running quad boon builds and it's a huge tradeoff that I am fine with. A survivor has to have skills like Ayrun to survive long with a build like that. Resetting boons is also a major tradeoff as they have to travel to and from the totem and spend 14 seconds blessing it. Only a few totem locations on certain maps are really strong such as upstairs in Ironworks of Misery, Eyrie of Crows or downstairs in the Temple of Purgation, almost all other totem locations are barely an inconvenience for a killer to find and snuff.
I do think boons should get a change, such as the blessing time increasing every time they bless a totem, perhaps by 5 to 10 seconds each time.
But even with every bless being 14 seconds I don't see how making Vigil a boon could be considered a buff. In the matches I play and observe boons aren't up even a third of the time whereas current Vigil is always on.
200%? That would mean survivors would recover their exhaustion perks in under 14 seconds inside the zone. I think that's too much. Especially when they could be working on a gen, opening a chest or healing in the zone.
Yeah, you are making it nearly worthless, it'd have to be an extremely high recovery rate.
66% is a high recovery rate already. At 66% an exhaustion perk recovers in 24 seconds instead of 40. That's far from "nearly worthless."
If Vigil were a boon it'd be the best boon in the game.
Man I bet you think illumination is strong too. I seriously can't believe you think this would be a balanced change, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
So passive aggressive.
It'd be more balanced than the current Vigil we have now. At least survivors would have to do more than equip Sprint Burst and Vigil to be able to pre-run off their gen as soon as they spot the killer or hear the terror radius and repeat the cycle every 30 seconds while the killer targets their teammates.
Or we rework vigil. That perk is as broken as old Tinkerer and we dont need a situation where every killer and survivor feels forced to run a vigil equivalent.
Well that makes sense, I personally would not mind if it went back down to it's old values as I'd still use it regardless, stacking I believe was still weaker than one person using current vigil so I'd be okay if it came back too (I mainly liked that for solo Q and someone else happened to have it also once in a blue moon).
I feel the old values were in a sweet spot that made the perk not too much? I'd still very much think it'd help if BHVR showed how truly effective it was, when was the last time we had perk usage and win rates? I see the arguements against it I just wish we had some more context behind it to see how things are doing.
Like can we please have a global stats page on the official stats tracker? lol
Fireup?
Imho, if a killer version would be made it would also need like Basic attack recover up too.
I disagree on making a killer version of this perk in whole.
The perk needs to be adjusted as is but giving a flat out increase in time would be to oppressive in certain situations.
Just adjust it so it it doesn't affect exposed, and tweak how it affects exhaustion then it'll ease more of the problems about the perk.
Lol that's like saying removing Jason and Nurse would be more balanced than what we have now. The goal of balancing something should not be making it so awful it's essentially gone.
Is that the best you can do? A garbage analogy?
I said it would the best boon. So you think all boons are garbage then?
Perks, especially survivor perks, should be balanced. There shouldn't be one perk that's on all the time attached to a mobile source (a survivor) that buffs almost all of the exhausting perks and many more perks besides that and debuffs many killer perks and killer powers. All for the cost of a single survivor perk slot when a team of survivors can bring 16 perks.
Boon: Vigil would still be powerful without needing to be 200% (your only suggestion). Surely you can actually come up with an argument as to why it'd be "so awful it's essentially gone", preferably in a reply that takes more than two sentences.
Lol, survivors should be balanced but killers are A okay being broken and overpowered. I just can't with you. Like do you not hear yourself before you type something out?
That would be such a good perk at that point, terrifying, with diminishing returns existing we should definitely get a perk like this now.
Best not to engage with some folk, Entity. Some people are just abrasive and very seldom use anything but presumptuous no faith arguments.
Fireup has gen completion requirements. If you remove those from Fireup, or add gen completion conditions to Vigil, I'd say we're be on the same page.
Concurred. I regularly just mark anyone I see with SB as 'to be ignored' and then go after their teammates. Vigil just contributes to furthering the incentive to tunnel whoever doesn't have it.
It would be fun probably, but at the same time the build variety would be a bit weird.
Since 90% of the roster would benefit from it, and most of that would dang near be a requirement for "best builds" of certain m1's so...
Actually it would be a perk that would be quite the boon to several lower tier killers like clown, freddy, etc.
the why does vigil effect killer powers
What killers are broken and overpowered?
Looking at kill rates no killers are actually broken and overpowered. Who's actually overpowered and why? Tier lists put Nurse at the top but her kill rate is in the dumpster because her skill floor is so high. I love playing against Nurses because I know how to run them and they are usually terrible. Blight is better off but he isn't broken or overpowered.
I guess a garbage analogy was the best you can do because now you have to resort to insults. My posts are quite reasonable compared to your emotional two line responses.
Yes, you are definitely right. But arguing with him is currently more fun than playing DbD. 😂
Honestly, Vigil is the big overrated boogie man content creators love to gas up. They just hate that survivors have faster access to their sprint burst. But really, it's a useless perk if you're not running an exhaustion perk. I saw someone say it's counters clowns bottles therefore it should be nerfed. First off no one even uses clown purples bottles anymore, second people only use Vigil for exhaustion. They're not using it to counter any killer inflicted status effects.
Bruh actually thinks nurse is fine. Alright you are done, have a good rest of your life.
Nurse is fine, according to the statistics of BHVR. Her Kill-rate is garbage. People on these forums consistently tell us Nightlight is not useful, and we are to depend on BHVR's official statistics - those statistics list Nurse at a sub-par kill rate.
If you have a problem with Nurse, I assume you mean only the high MMR Nurse Mains. If that's the case, that's a niche of a niche.
Show me the killer that has above a 65% kill rate, and I will agree with you that there are overpowered killers. 60% Kill rate is the goal of the developers, meaning 60% +-5% are categorically not overpowered. Nurse is, statistically, not there. Nor is ghoul. Nor is Jason. This is the same logic used to judge whether perks are categorically overpowered by selection rate and escape rate.
I'm not saying the killers are well-balanced, they aren't, but the acerbic dismissal isn't necessary or constructive to the threads point of conversation. Your opinion isn't more or less valid than anyone else's here. Arriving simply to insult and dismiss others is not conducive to a community conversation.
things like this will hopefully become less of an issue when we have an actual MMR system, hopefully lol
I feel like a lot of DBD might be more bareable as a casual player if it does its job?
A working MMR system would fix the large bulk of my, and I'm convinced everyone else's, problems with this game.
Between this and the recode hopefully fixing a lot of longstanding latency/buggy interactions if it's done right, hopefully for sure.
Okay let's say hypothetically the devs release a survivor perk that's something dumb like the killer instantly dies if you pull off some ridiculously hard thing that only the best survivors could accomplish but had no real counterplay from the killers would this be fine to you?