Game health updates sounds like great stuff but one problem
Okay, i know stuff will probably be addressed with the phase 2 stuff, but with the addition of the give up option, which is linked to 4 man slugging… whats stopping a killer from hyper fixating and camping a body? Like you're forced to go to them and try picking them up so a killer gets easy snowball potential
_____
Like I'm not saying its going to be efficient but i can very easily see this honestly increasing slug heavy playstyles due to the fact you can make the other side instantly quit, granting a win.
Comments
Well, let's hope anti-slug part 2 in Life Initiative Phase 2 has a solution for that.
You are not really forced to go there, you can do Gens. If the Killer decides to camp someone on the ground for up to 4 minutes, you have time to complete the rest of the Gens. (Unless there is a 3-Gen and the person is right in that 3-Gen, but this is another problem which hopefully will get fixed at some point…)
The second part is very valid tho. The Surrender Option does not fix slugging at all and might just incentivize Killers to go for 4 man Slugs, since it is a Victory for them if all Survivors surrender. So it does not do anything against trolling or that slugging is just a bit too good currently.
I'd just do a gen in this scenario. And if I'm the one slugged and camped then I hope my team mates just do gens
I also dont think it will stop slugging but why should it incentivize killer? If i go right now for a 4-man-slug and succeed, i also get a win.
So where is the incentive? The only thing is that you dont need to wait for the bleedout/search the slugs. But if someone is so competitive that they go willingly for the 4-man-slug, they dont care about that. They are the ones who hold a 3-gen for half an hour, if that is the best way to win.
But the ones who slug to be toxic/waste the time of the slugs, are getting punished with the change.
So this may not solve slugging, but its atleast a bit better then.
Like my problem is you cant even tell a killer is camping the slugged bodies and this is an active, less committal way to win than go for hooks. If anything this incentivizes slugging as a potentially faster win condition. while I'm sure stuff needs more time to work through anti slugging i think that should be put in the game before making slugging more appealing.
People who slug the whole team just to bleed them out do this to be toxic. There is no other reason for that. And those will get a kick out of Survivors surrendering.
The killer can't make anyone instantly quit, and there will still be plenty of survivors that will stay in the game the entire bleed out, just to spite the killer.
Imagine being so biased and twisted that you think that the Survivor who gets slugged by the Killer (an action the Killer is actively doing) is doing something out of spite.
What's to stop them from doing that now? I don't understand how a give up option changes this in anyway.
Slugging is the new meta for killer - no matter how you go about it.
Hooking a survivor, assuming you actually make the hook in the first place, does nothing for the killer and actually can activate some strong perks for survivors.
Slugging nullifies so many survivor perks and body blocks, pallet saves, flashlight saves etc that there is almost zero reason to go for 12 hooks versus 5 gens.
Unfortunately, survivors brought this on themselves with the constant moaning about gen regression perks.
Gen regression is almost non-existent so survivors reap what you sow.
Until hooks actually benefit the killer slugging will continue.
It incentivizes it, cause it can end matches faster then hooking with less commitment thanks to the concede option.
It gets rid of slugging everyone just to be a toxic and bleed survivors out, but now just makes it more optimized time efficiency wise
Very rarely have I had a killer camp my slugged body, but when I have I will crawl in the opposite direction away from my team mates. The killer usually thinks you're leading them to a survivor, so you can crawl and eventually stop near some lockers and just waste their time (they'll check the lockers too). Yeah it's easier if you're in a swf and communicating, but that's like with everything in this game lol at the very least the killer will leave or hook me once he realizes I'm just messing around. If you notice a team mate coming, you can also stop and shake yourself to communicate 'no.' That's become more commonplace recently, due to the rise in slugging a new mode of communication has been created lol
But I don't see how it incentivizes just standing over a body or how that is going to lead to a four person slug.
"When the surrender option is added to the game, some survivors will purposely not use the option, to spite the killer."
Damn right I won't. Why should I have to surrender because you won't hook me. You want the kill hook me, mori me or watch me bleed out.
How could they spite the killer that way when the killer simply has the option to hook the slugged survivors? The survivors not surrendering wouldn't really be spiting in that case.
So what do you suggest? The problem was the killers slugging not only to win, but to leave people on the ground to be toxic and waste their time. The surrender option fixes that, but now it's seen as counterproductive. So what do we do? Just not implement it?
The killer doesn’t always have the option the hook the survivor. That’s the biggest problem with these anti-slugging conversations. Too many people assume that killers always 100% of the time can hook survivors.
Survivors can purposely place themselves in situations where the killer can’t hook them, and the killer shouldn’t be punished when this happens.
Yh i said that it only affects the toxic ones. So that changes dont incentivize more people. The toxic ones do it already.
So if they get their kick out of the surrender instead of humping me 4 min straight, im fine with it. Bc im gone and playing the next match instead of being stuck.
I'm sure that's the point. They'd rather people just go to the next game and get over those losses faster. I mean its a game and it shouldn't really matter anyway, BUT the way it is now you can make Survivors stay in the game WAY TOO LONG.. Speeding up that process will be a very welcome addition.
You mean when all 4 survivors are down? Ever since hooks can respawn, are there really places where survivors can place themselves that make hook sunreachable?
Precisely, just do gens. I've had a Skull Merchant camp my body and gens were flying.
If a killer decides to camp your body, which is arguably the worst way to play with Knock Out — then they will just camp your body. They're just hoping people will wander around or hover around you to get free hits.
If you notice a killer is babysitting you, as I like to put it (just continue to crawl until they break LOS with you) or you could just stay in one place, up to you.
It's a boring strategy, but there's not much of a counter to Knock Out unless you're forcing them into hooking you - by that, I mean intentionally going into a locker, injured, and allowing them to grab you and place you down or hook you.
I like to move from my spot to prevent being watched from the killer, but it's a very strong strategy against solos and hard to pull off with people who either know how to counter it or a SWF with comms.
Should just be placed on a timer, but knowing Behavior these rounds of initiatives will enable the playstyle.
Behavior will take note of it, months later enact a nerf to Knock Out, or do a bandaid fix to fix the issue. Behavior typically seems like the developer that does these changes, collect statistics, and then issue out potential fixes to these issues.
Kinda like how medkits and general healing was nerfed in 6.1.0 and then Sloppy Butcher was nerfed to compensate the changes. I know people hate the Sloppy Butcher changes, but that is what they typically do.
We saw this with the Distortion changes and the Weave Attunement changes months later.
I don't see them adding basekit Unbreakable into the game, but I could be wrong.
@bazarama , more us v. them yawn - people play how they play, it doesn't matter. I see the same gen regression perks people begroan are ruined. If they were as weak as they were, they wouldn't be seen predominantly in most games.
@Coffeecrashing , why do you feel like a slugged survivor should come crawling to you when you've already wasted their time by four minute bleeding them out?
If the survivors are intentionally not using the surrender option, why is it on the onus for them to simply give up when the playstyle itself is problematic to the majority? Solo-queue.
I hope that in the future, many survivors will learn to counter the specific playstyle and learn to not simply give up as the killer has chosen to simply utilize tactics that only affect the side without comms. 😊
I agree with your response to the OP... but if the survivor has gone down in the middle of the 3 gen to be camped by the killer, isn't that the Survivor's fault?
Also they have 4 minutes to crawl out from the 3 gen to get picked up, and I'd argue getting hooked in the 3-gen is probably worse and easier for the killer to capitalise on...
So what is this "problem" you describe that needs to be fixed? Shouldn't making such a massive mistake come with consequences? What makes the killer the issue in this situation?
The problem is that 3-Gens which can so easily be defended exist in the first place. And if the Killer is camping it… Yes, this is the Killers fault. 3-Gens are not only caused by Survivors, but they are also caused by Killers not really leaving them. And then it does not really matter if the Survivors do the other 4 Gens or dont do them at all - as long as the 3-Gen is not broken, the game cannot be won by the Survivors.
And sadly 3-Gens exist especially on reworked maps (most likely because the maps got too small). And yes, I think Gens should not spawn that close to each other that they are as easily defendable as they currently are.
It also does happen on maps which did not get recent reworks, even tho it is rare and usually not as extreme. Here is an example of a game I had yesterday on Resting Place:
The blue Dots are Gens I know of. On top is Shack, there was one Gen in Shack and then 2 right next to Shack. The middle Gen was more towards the other side and there were 3 Gens on the other side (I dont know where they were, simply because I never was there, since my whole game resolved around doing those 3 Gens). The Killer did not capitalize from the 3-Gen, but if they would have done so, it would have been an impossible game for the Survivors. And it is not like there is no room left on the northern side of the Map where the 2 Gens not in Shack could have been instead.
And with the reworked maps, you have them sometimes even more clumped together. And this is something which should be fixed. Not saying that Gens should not be able to be defended, but if you can stand in the middle of it and have clear vision on all 3 Gens, something is just wrong.
I'm not expecting for survivors to do anything.
I'm expecting the game not to punish me, when survivors purposely place themselves in situations where I'm forced to slug them. The giant double standard is when people say "slugging is a problem and needs to be fixed", they only want it fixed for survivors. And if the killer is forced to slug, they still want the killer punished for it.
If slugging is fixed, it should be fixed for both sides of the game. Slugging is frustrating for the killer, when the survivors force them to slug.
I also have slugged when I played Legion, I've also slugged for the 4k as Onryo on Decimated Borgo (against a SWF that was frustrating me with blinds)
You're acting like I myself am advocating for a removal of slugging, when I obviously partake in it.
The difference however, is that I'm not actively putting survivors in the dying state and bleeding them out for 4 minutes (except for the Onryo example above ^).
Even when I played recently, I didn't slug the last survivor to watch some ridiculous mori. I just hooked, queued up again, and got into another killer match relatively quickly because my time is important, I don't have time to sit there and watch a survivor on the ground as the last survivor continues to hit skill checks.
It's not petty for a survivor in either of those situations ^ hitting skill checks as one of the last to spite the killer, the same for them refusing to crawl to you because they're slugged.
You would probably classify me as a survivor who spites the killer because I'll just wait and search for chests or totems when the hatch closes. - sometimes I'll go to the gate (if they're not close) but if they're directly right next to each other, what's the point? Let me watch the same mori animation done to me over and over? Both sides can be spiteful and the repeated ad nauseum take that I play how I play because the other side plays how they play is a circular argument.
You can say the exact same thing about meta survivors or teams comprised of skilled players that know how to directly counter a slugging killer's playstyle, a tunneling/camping playstyle, just like I know how to counter in the examples I provided as a killer. ^
If someone is slugged in a spot that makes it difficult to rescue, they can still crawl. I feel like people forget that part, lol.
1.) You know killers have a perk to prevent flashlight and flashbangs right? If this is something you struggle with often enough just throw it in your build.
2.) How are you playing so poorly that every down is somehow near a pallet
3.) You keep saying you are forced to slug survivors. Who is forcing this on you? Outside of SWF groups I have never seen 3 people come together to try to save another survivor
If a killer just camps a downed survivor, then the survivors win. That's completely uncontested generator progress.
Not to mention, 2 survivors can easily get a downed survivor up. The moment the killer attacks one survivor, they judt run which gives the second survivor plenty of time to tap the downed survivor to get them up. Same concept as rescuing from hook. Naturally a downed survivor would be crawling to a strong loop, so the moment they get up, everyone is at a good defensive position against chases. Exception of course is if it's a nurse which can pretty much end any chase at will, or bubba who will always one shot rescuers so taking hits aren't an option.
Yeah, that's not really a thing anymore. Not only do hooks respawn now, but the maps are getting smaller. Even when all survs are up, the number of conceivable scenarios where you just can't get a surv to a hook are very, very limited (pretty much only a very well coordinated SWF, and you don't balance around the exception, but the rule).
It's been quite a long time since I last felt like I couldn't get someone to a hook. It's never been easier.
No one is forced to slug except on rare occasion.
And you can get people up even when the killer is babysitting them. WGLF, MFT, Buckle Up, etc. And as others and I have said in the past, if slugging becomes a true meta, it won't last long. The previously mentioned perks (and likely UB/Exponential) will become meta, people will learn how to use them well, and the slugging playstyle will crumble.
If the killer camps a slug you can do gens. 4 minutes without any slow down or chase should be more than enough to get all gens done.
And, I'm confused on your second point. Killers can already go for the 4 man slug. The surrender isn't forced. Nothing would change.
Yes, let's not mention gens that spawn in a straight line.
Five gens that spawn on one side of the map.
You break the three gen, the new three gen that forms is still pretty bad.
It's gotten so bad that I have to have Deja Vu in all of my builds. I would like to experiment without always having to have Deja Vu in all of my survivor builds, but I cannot afford to swap it out.
This is an unpopular opinion for sure, but I actually like Backwater Swamp simply for how they have the gens set up. Sometimes it has the gens spawn in a far corner of the map, out of place, out of sight. I wish Behavior had more of a consistency about gen spawns, either they spawn where a killer defends them easily due to the close distance OR create specific situations where they spawn on the edges like Backwater Swamp.
I've came to the conclusion that people do not want to swap off their tried and true builds.
People get surprised when I tell them that every single survivor that I have (and I have all of them) all use different builds, no overlap whatsoever. I'm constantly and I mean constantly coming up with new builds all the time, I try them out, like them, and they become permanent staples to the person. I guess this is why I don't really care when a perk gets nerfed.
I look at my old videos from 2 years ago, I'm running Circle of Healing but when it was announced to be nerfed - sure, I didn't use it as much, but I didn't cry about its nerf.
Made For This? It was on my David for a nice, stealthy getaway type of build. It got nerfed, did I come on here to complain about it? Nope.
The only perk that I have came on here to complain about was Wake Up (it was a staple to my Quentin build and I am a selfless survivor main) and Distortion (I didn't even use it that much, but the original nerf was horrible + I still think it needs to go back to 3 tokens).
Regardless, when a perk gets changed or nerfed - it doesn't affect me. I run all types of builds so I'll always have a nice playstyle at the end of the day -- and this goes for both sides, people play on one specific build, a perk of theirs gets nerfed, and they come and complain about how one side is nerfed when BOTH over the years that I have played gets nerfed.
You're right, when I loaded in on high prestiges with my prestige 2/3 killer - I tossed on Lightborne for one of my perks if I saw 3-4 flashlight users (ain't nobody got time for that) or if I don't have it unlocked, I used Starstruck. I 4ked a SWF team with Wraith with Starstruck because they were overly altruistic months ago.
Even with the annoyance that I got and I was heavily annoyed, I allowed the Meg (or whoever the last survivor was) to get her totem glyph -- I downed her as she was doing it, thought to myself (I'm a survivor main) let me let her get her glyph, allowed her to wiggle off, she did the glyph, she got all sweet with me but guess what? I killed her and I still do not regret it.