The fact that ruin is used so much, is a testament that the game is not balanced and poorly designed
Ruin is used waaay too much, killers have no other option, if no ruin is used, gens gets fixed too quickly if you are not using a killer that can apply good map pressure. So is ruin or loose, and is not even a sure thing since it can get broken quickly.
So the fact that they are pretty much forced to use ruin because otherwise they don't have good fighting chance means the game is not correctly desingned. If the game was well designed and balanced there would be no need of so many killers using this perk.
Just my opinion. Don't be saulty
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I play PC, mastered old Freddy with no ruin and regularly 4ked at rank 1... Stop being a dick
It is pc elitism to act like every console survivor is bad, killers use controllers too.
I'm calling out his claims, that's not being a dick, however you making claims that you regularly 4k with old Freddy and him claiming he does it as LF with no addons (albeit he's console) is just bullshit. I've seen the odd game back in the day where someone did actually win against a red rank team with old Freddy.
However claiming you regularly did it at red ranks? Yeah sorry no you didn't, unless you regularly ran into potato red ranks because most of them are just potatos because getting to red ranks is actually really easy so.
Marth uses a controller, and ppl think the depip squad are like God's, lol.
Ironic, isn’t it?
Old Freddy was underrated, he required a different play style but a lot of people didn’t realize that.
There are a few ways to settle this.
For example, try the following:
Step 1 - Be rank 1 (or whatever rank you want to test for really)
Step 2 - Equip ruin
Step 3 - Be Wraith and stand in a corner
Step 4 - Set a timer. Note how long it takes each gen to pop as well as how long it takes for the gates to open
Step 5 - Repeat until you have enough data and take off ruin for half of the experiments.
Use that data to get an estimate on how much ruin delays the game by, and thus what your initial "timer" is for each game at base. This controls for pressure, since if you start chasing them your pressure will vary by quite a bit each game. But if you are an immersed Wraith then there is nothing slowing the game down other than Ruin.
From there you can estimate how long each chase has to be with or without ruin and see how much of an impact Ruin has on this number. Then compare that to how long chases tend to last in practice as whatever Killer you play as.
If the expected chase time is within the required chase time without ruin then you don't need ruin. Otherwise you do need ruin.
The existence of variation between teams means you will win sometimes and lose sometimes with or without ruin most likely, but it should help make an informed decision.
The only flaw with this experiment is that it’d seriously de-rank you, so the experiment would eventually end you up in low ranks.
re-rank between tests.
You lose 1 pip each time so as long as you play a serious game every other time and pip when you are playing serious you should be fine.
Step 1 is important, we want to control for rank too.
It's depressing that a discussion of a perk that gets used in like 90% of matches has just devolved into people ego stroking like it discounts the point at all.
It's like saying the ppl who beat dark souls using a rock band controller are bad at the game for using inferior tools. The only thing that sucks about you being on console is I can't play with ya.
This test is also assuming your going to only use 3 perks when not using ruin, as opposed to replacing it with a perk that let's me end chases faster or cut down on time between chases. The whole point of NOT using it is to have use of 4 perks during the match instead of 3 perks for 90% of it.
Agreed, wish dbd had cross play.
So many ppl hate on that idea whenever it's brought up. We gotta protect you poor console killers from the PC "optimal and good" survivors.
Don’t forget the god tier nurses! People talk about the huge advantage pc brings but I play Paladins with pc cross play on and still do fine. We’re going off-topic though.
It's not that there is no other options. It's that a lot of people prefer Ruin because they don't want to step out of the comfort zone and try a new idea. Ruin is good at what it does, but hasn't been good for a long time. The survivors you need it against dont care about it. The ones you dont need it against no longer care for it. The ones that suffer were the ones who it wouldn't of mattered if you had it or not.
Problem was he was complicated for a killer who didnt even understand his dream transformation. Pill bottle was so horrible for those few seconds of amazing mind game for free hits.
Was easier to stay asleep and do the gen if it was a fast sleep freddy usually.
Ruin is used so often because it is the most consistent early game slow-down perk. The first chase is often the most important, and if you, for whatever reason, have a long first chase, ruin allows you the extra time to hook someone before the gens start popping.
Ruin isn't necessary in every game. Sometimes you pop off early and snowball hard. Sometimes you just have a good game. But, in other games you have a rough start and it lets you make a comeback. It's hard to play consistently well as killer every game. Ruin gives you safety time.
Against really good survivors you need every extra second you can get, and ruin gives that. Only nurse absolutely never needs ruin because she is broken, but good players already know that.
Exactly. People who thought old Freddy was F-tier simply didn't know how to play as him, or never played against a good Freddy. He was legit one of the most oppressive killers to go against, super deadly if the player knew how to use him.
I find it so intriguing how people claimed Self Care was way too OP because 80% of Survivors used it every match.
Now these same people claim Killers “NEED” Ruin and that’s why it’s seen in over 80% of games.
What a joke. It is a security blanket like Self Care used to be. To be honest, I hope they change the perk.
Semantics. Get hung up on one word if you want. That is a very childish argument to make. And looking at the thread I don't recall ever saying that anything was required. Neither did the original post. Did you reply to the wrong post?
Well, without taking instant heals or "delayed instant heals" into account, selfcare is more effective than searching 16 seconds for a healer...
Ruin isnt neccessary, but at worst it makes generators take atleast the normal time to finish, as it negates the skill check bonus.
I think ruin is used because all survivors are instantly affected for its full power. Compare to thana or DL for which 3 gens might be done before getting any noticeable slowdowns.
You could make the same use out of corrupt intervention though, which forces survivors to either travel toward you to do gens or waste 2 minutes waiting on the perk. Either way, you get some buffer from genrush at the point in the game where survivors hit gens the hardest. It's also ALWAYS consistent unlike ruin, which could last all game or 15 seconds.
The original post DID say it. "Killers have no other option" and "it's ruin or lose".
I keep forgetting plague and her perks, to be honest. CI is a different kind of hindrance with other drawbacks. It doesnt affect the act of repairing, but places a restriction on the choice of gens.
Survivors who dont run into a blocked gen at the start will not even notice it's been in play.
In the same vein, survivors who can hit great skillchecks or dont get skillchecks at all will not be bothered by ruin.
Like mentioned in my original post, most "gen slowdown" perks dont affect survivors at full power unconditionally. Ruin isnt necessary or even reliable, totally agree. But it works until a survivor bothers to cleanse it, which apparently isnt happening much.
Correlation ≠ causation.
*Sips tea*
Since it affects the gens furthest from you, that's typically the gens survivors spawn at. Survivors working on the remaining gens have to get closer, which allows you more opportunities to pressure multiple survivors at once. Your much more likely to find multiple survivors on a gen if there's fewer gens available.
That's not true. You are testing for Ruins stall. So the control is just when you aren't using ruin.
If you used corrupt during the control tests then how would you know if the difference was due to corrupt being really bad or really good depending on the outcome? You wouldn't, because the comparison point you actually need is when there is no ruin, since that way the stall is simple time with ruin minus time without ruin. Why overcomplicate things by adding more variables?
This is completely wrong. I use Trapper and am colorblind to the point that most maps make me have to hunt by movement. I use several builds with no ruin to great success. Matter of fact, my best SWF build does not have ruin and usually nets 3k minimum vs them.
Problem is that many killers don't understand map pressure. They try to control large maps and tunnel themselves away from key gen areas.
If I'm on a large map, I'm trapping the area with the highest concentration of gens and pushing you off. I don't need ruin for this. I often like Lullaby for it better as it is often ignored until it's too late. At higher ranks, Lullaby won't work though. But having a field full of traps around 4 to 5 gens does. I won't leave that area unless there are only 2 survivors left.
No ruin needed.
Like Blood Lodge? I hate that map so much.
I think corrupt intervention is good tracking perk because it theoretically makes survivors come closer to the center of the map. It doesn't impede generator progress though and since the killer can only really chase/pressure 1 or 2 survivors at most, generators will get done if the team is playing optimal at generators. If the survivors hide, than it also doesn't do much but it's very powerful with other tracking perks like discordance and whispers as those type of perks somewhat remove stealth from the game. Ruin is used a lot as perk because it allows killers to advance hook states of survivors without too many generators getting done. You can play the game without Ruin, but often, it forces the killer to slug if they want to win vs good optimal teams.
I'd say as far map design is concerned, the bigger the map, the harder it is to win as killer. If you ever wondered why some killers pick indoor maps like "The game" or Lery or the new hawkins laboratory, It has to do with the ability to pressure generators. pressuring generators isn't just getting people off generators, it's making them scared to repair them and indoor maps where you constantly hear terror radius make you question where the killer is. This is also why survivors usually pick Farm maps, Red forest , Mount Ormond Resort because those maps are so large that you physically can't pressure generators since it takes you like 40 seconds to walk from one side of the map to another. that's like half generator done. They're also really strong looping maps as most of the pallets are nearly all safe. On those maps, you'll basically just split the map in 2 and try to hook people on one side of the map to force others to come and help. There are some odd maps out there who also contain crazy loops, but most of the time, you don't need to commit to a chase that isn't worth winning, Some players run bamboozle to fix some of the imbalances of those crazy loops but I often question if that perk is really worth the perk slot.
I think moral of dbd is that if something is a problem in dbd, you just invent a perk to fix it. Is that healthy game design? I wouldn't know. but that's kinda how dbd works for both survivor and killer. you sort of just grow to accept those minor details in the game and move on.
Are you trying to say PC survivors play better than console survivors? 🤔
You spelled salty and lose wrong
Also Ruin is only meant to slow early game down
Allow reflections like "do not be saulty" after such a fallacious reasoning...
The most used perks are because they are better than others. Stop pretending that you balance the game using some perks, that's wrong. Everyone uses what seems best to them, not what balances the game...
The first problem is the imbalance between the perks. Some are probably too used because too powerful, others not used enough because not powerful enough.
What benefits you the most is not what defines what is balanced. That just says there is an imbalance in the perks.
Honestly we killers arnt forced to use ruin, I don't use it and still win plenty of games goes by a bit quicker when I use ruin but still, but I definitely use it on daddy Myers cuz I need the game to slow down so I can 99 the evil within so when I need it
Ruin is like noed, to help new killers.
If you don't know how to apply pressure, or if you did a bad game, just deal with it and improve yourself.
This is a survivor-meme though. Both are countered by camping harder and closer. They are used because they are broken and over-synergise; it has nothing to do with what killers do. Meanwhile MoM as it now functions is made more effective by the killer camping, yet it isn't used simply because it now demands survivors put some effort in, it's not another automatic get-out-of-jail-free card.
That's wrong logic. All it says it's ruin is strong. But it doesn't necessarily means is needed. Think about old DS. It was ridiculously strong and many survivors used it. Did it mean DS was needed and showed unbalance? No, ofc not.
Don't get me wrong, I personally think ruin is needed to have a balanced match. But the conclusion you came to is not logical.
It's the context. Don't act like it's the same reason (toxicity) everytime
Yeah let's pretend that every killer has the same possibilities to apply pressure.
A Hillbilly without Ruin at a huge map like Temple Of Purgation will exactly have the same chances of winning against 4 rank 1 survivors as a Clown without Ruin at Temple Of Purgation.
If the Hillbilly player gets better results it's because the Clown player doesn't know how to apply pressure by your logic.
Every killer are different. Following your example, that same clown might do better on "the game" than this poor crack billy.
You shouldnt expect to win every match, thats my only point.
As soon as I remove DS in loadout, I feel like I die really fast since there is usually tunneling. I had my 1st match for a long time without DS, and a Ghostface tunneled me to death, even after my 2nd hook, 2 other survivors body block, attempt to tank damage, but still going for me. And I realize "why did I remove DS from my loadout?"
In the opposite, as Trapper I usually lose 2 gens just to setup trap if survivors spawn together. This is why I use Noed (Ruin is RNG so I dont rely on it.
Use BT & DS just to counter tunneling, and do tunneling, Ruin, Noed just to prevent Gen goes to fast. Is what we agree, its game's bad design.
We can take longer Objective (2nd objective, not longer Gen time), its better than to do through Ruin. In Exchange tunneling should be impossible for Killer (an unhooked Survivor auto have DS after each hook). When all 5 players have a long enough time play per game. This game will be great, and non similar game genre can surpass.
Your test would just prove that having a perk to give time...gives time. That doesnt mean it gives more kills or anything like that. I also wasnt saying to use corrupt for a test, but rather that people do infact use a perk inplace of ruin that lasts the whole game. That perk doesnt HAVE to give time, but could simply be to make the limited time given more valuable and to provide pressure by ending chases faster. But yes... if you want to run a 1 perk build using ruin while standing in a corner, then do it again without perks... You'll probably notice results until the survivors inevitably get bored and run around looking for you. Last time I did this as wraith...they found me...standing in a corner, invisible.
For the bigger maps, its best to pick your battles more or less. If you see a gen off in the distance by itself...let it go. Many of the larger maps can be quite good for a killer if you know which areas to favor. For temple of purgation for example (one of my favs)... Protect the temple, the gen behind it and the ones to the side. The temple itself is a death trap to any survivor caught downstairs, so itll be free hits for days if you keep that gen from being done. The surrounding gens on the other hand typically only have 1 pallet each... The entire other half of the map INFRONT of the temple... You can write that off if you want. All of a sudden, a big map becomes alot more manageable if you think of it like this.
Actually it's useless in high ranks (purple and red), survivors get rid of the hex in less than 1 minute and/or can do perfect skillchecks. I'm a kiler main, and I have to tell you that Corrupt Intervention is way better than ruin, CI blocks without any danger of being broken 3 gens for 120 minutes (more time than the time survivors use to destroy your hex), you just have to know how to play and patroll the other 4 gens (that are actually next to each other)
This is just ignorant when killers usually get way more BP playing over Survivors. This perk should literally just give you extra BP like the David perk for survivors saving. All he gets is Extra BP, your perk actually gives you information to then get even more BP. 🙄
Gen rushing is also an 'optimal' or legitimate technique. Survivors shouldn't get punished for doing it.
I never said the auras aren't nice. They are. But I actually rarely see auras with the perk. The BP bonus is more consistently useful; the aura reading is like once every five hooks.
I only ever "camp" if it is a certain scenario like, I know there is someone around the hook and I go about looking for them, there is pallets/gens to break, my ruin is nearby, they are hooked in the middle of a 3 gen. even then I will just patrol around not really camping but still actively looking for other people to chase, and for tunneling. I will always try to go for the unhooker survivor, I will follow the scratch marks but if I end up finding the unhooked person instead of the unhooker then I will down them and if I don't think they have DS I will hook them again. im not gonna slug you if I think hooking you is the better option for fear of being called a "tunneler" just because the scratch marks led me to you instead of the unhooker
these are not good examples, those 2 red ranks with only 8k points each seemed to have 1 of 2 things happened to them ,tunneled to death or they gave up on hook at some point, 8k points shows they where not in the game for long, context is super important in these and just a picture of a 4k without ruin does little to justify your point, you say ruin is not REQUIRED, technically not against very bad survivors. against good survivors? yes. but tell me how do you know what kind of survivors they are before you go into the game? better to be safe than sorry. I just had a game as billy in purple ranks where I 5 gen 4ked. ruin wasn't needed at all yet how was I supposed to know that the game would go that way? Ruin is needed in high ranks for a chance against COMPETENT-GOOD survivors. against bad survivors no.
Ruin is an S tier perk no doubt about it, but finding the hex is fairly easy if you've played the game enough to know where totems spawn...