Cyro
Cyro
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The amount of ignorancy on this thread is astounding. She does need a telltale to her power, I like how a typical killer mains idea of balance is making sure the survivor has absolutely no defence against them. I'll say it again folks, when a Spirit stands completely still at a pallet it becomes a GUESSING game, yes I know it is quite a hard pill to swallow.
Countless youtubers have already explained this situation with actual evidence to back up their claims before, whether you want to believe it or not. In a game like Dead by Daylight you have no time to 'adapt' to the Spirit's gameplay, you don't have multiple rounds against her, you have a couple of chances to take a correct guess against her and that's that. You'll move onto the next match or next Spirit and they could play differently to the other Spirit and then you're back to square one. And even then the argument that taking a correct guess is counterplay towards the Spirit is laughable, for a start the guessing game is so swung in her favour, with perks like Stridor you completely negate Iron Will. I'll be fair though the likelihood of you winning a chase against a Spirit is higher when you're healthy, when you're injured however you're as good as dead especially if she has Stridor.
When you take a correct guess against a Spirit, you didn't outplay her, you guessed correctly, but guess what in a couple of seconds you'll have to do it again and the likelihood of you guessing correctly again dwindles quickly. I know you're probably screaming 'GEN RUSH HER GEN RUSH HER!' and yeah you're right most, of the times that I've 'won' against a Spirit were due to gens getting completed very quickly, its funny because nobody wins in these types of matches as nobody is going to pip for it.
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Honestly at this point people are just playing mental gymnastics with themselves. Can you actually imagine convincing yourself that old Nurse was completely fine? I remember first getting into this game and playing Nurse straight off the bat.
https://i.gyazo.com/5688b592d743693fca2df9178eace8ba.png
This was the result, because I played Nurse. This was under 30-40 hours of gameplay.
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I have over 40 ebony moris on Demogorgon alone.
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@DeKillerKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/817304#Comment_817304
Probably because right now she is the only realistically viable killer in the game. And some killers don't want her to be nerfed because well, you know what they'd have to do.
I am in agreement she needs a sign on when she is phasing, like for example if she's phasing we hear her glass breaking noise that the killer hears. If she isn't then she doesn't make that sound.
That just brings up a new issue entirely, I'm all for nerfing the Spirit and then bringing up the other killers to a viable level, that's how it should be.
But right now people don't trust them to balance so they are clinging onto Spirit like the Nurse players clingned onto Nurse.
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I just find it funny that everyone will preach that Spirit is fair and balanced and that there are reliable counters to play against her. Yet none of them have posted ANY evidence backing up this opinion, there was Groot posting about what Marth said about her but that was it. Every single streamer I've seen (bar Tru) have voiced their concerns about the Spirit and have brought up a good argument with conclusive evidence to back up their claim.
All you people are really saying is ''go for windows, fake things!'' This. Is. Not. Counterplay.
You can't tell what on earth she is going to do, is it REALLY too much to ask for the Spirit to get some sort of telltale sign attached to her so you can at least tell when she's phasing? And before you say ''but duh glass lights up!!'' this has already been proven false by a lot of youtubers so don't make this argument again.
If you find Spirit fun to fight against, good for you, but from a balance standpoint she simply isn't fair to fight. Yes, she might be FUN to fight for certain players, but she isn't FAIR to fight. And yes killers shouldn't be fair to fight blah blah, but every single killer has some form of counterplay.
Why is Spirit the only exception to this rule?
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@DeKillerKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/816481#Comment_816481
I don't think it's fair to say someone's honest thoughts on a highly contested killer is useless.
Just saying "Let it die" or "She will be nerfed" is counter productive to having an actual discussion about her powers and how to accurately make her still powerful and fun against optimal survivors.
If there's no actual discussion then it will just turn into another ######### show.
There is tons of threads discussing the exact same thing that OP posted about, if he wanted to give his input he could of gone to these threads and done it there, not create a brand new thread that brings nothing new to the table with the Spirit discussion.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
The sound of survivors screaming is absurdly loud, not mention completely unnecessary. Also, according to the lore, each of the survivors have probably been hooked thousands of times. Should probably have a tolerance by now.
build up a tolerance to a rusty hook being shoved straight through your back to then pierce your chest.
what
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''hoomans are predictable and if you pay attention you will notice a trend!!!!!!''
as if you can notice a trend when it comes to spirit. ''oh she stood still at a pallet twice, maybe the third time she won't??'' guess what that isn't counterplay, you legitimately don't have a single clue about what she is going to do, you're telling me that because she stood still at a pallet twice that somehow gives you enough information to guess her next move and 'counterplay' her? no, its a guess and you cannot argue it in any other way. that is EXACTLY what the spirit is, a constant guessing game, guess wrong get hit, guess wrong again you go down. there is no legitimate way you can notice a pattern when it comes to fighting against a good spirit. scottjund summed it up the best honestly
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Kind of a useless thread, your ideas are the exact same stuff reposted over and over in this forum.
Let it die, she is getting nerfed.
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From my experience of playing a lot of him he's honestly a snowball killer.
In a lot of my red rank games if you haven't got a good chase in very quickly after setting up your portals with CI then you're in for a hard time (same can be said about any killer though), the best results I've got out of him was when I used his abilities to quickly snowball from hooks to gens and keep applying constant pressure with his shred and his portals.
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Honestly, yeah. A lot of the killers gameplay wise are extremely basic and I don't count things like hiding the red glow/moonwalking and things like that as that is a trait every single killer shares.
And to be honest it doesn't help when dedicated servers are extremely jank and at least from my experience (mainly playing killer) it tends to help the killers more than it helps the survivors. I tend to get extremely questionable hits on survivors and I feel like that alone forces them to play in certain ways, aka the extremely safe way by not trying to even be greedy for a second so every single chase becomes a case of loop once then throw so you don't get hit.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/808962#Comment_808962
The cointoss scenario (~50%) is fine and dandy in any context if it involved only two opposing forces.
A killer is in contest with 4 people at the same time, regardless if those 4 are cooperating or not. Each of them being in a "fair 1v1" shouldnt be a thing.
So fighting a Spirit should just be a complete coin toss scenario every single chase because of the ''1v4'' argument?
Because that's what fighting her legitimately is right now, a coin toss, if you're healthy you have a very small chance to avoid a hit if you somehow manage to confuse her while she's phasing (which doesn't happen against even a half awake Spirit).
I don't like the 1v4 argument because it's an extremely black and white way of looking at it, because what you're basically saying is screw counterplay I have to fight 4 of them so let's just flip a coin and see who wins, while the coin toss is heavily in the Spirit's ballpark mind you.
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As Demogorgon I randomly charge up my M2 to keep the survivors paranoid when they hear me HISSSSSSSSS.
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Anyone claiming Spirit has mindgames clearly doesn't understand how a 'mindgame' works.
Both sides are supposed to have an EQUALLY fair chance, however when a Spirit stands completely still that is it, you now cannot tell what she is about to do, it is a GUESS. It bothers me how people still claim she has mindgames. Scott explained it in his latest video for people who don't want to listen to reason.
As for how I'd nerf her, I'd remove her prayer beads and change how the phasing sound works along with a vaulting animation change, and the whole ''I took my hands off my mouse and keyboard so now you have to play my coin flip game.''
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Honestly if you want to play Ghostface you just have to keep adapting in the middle of the game. Tru3 is correct in saying that his stalk isn't the best thing he has (it is with addons) but then you can make up for it with the anti-heal peekaboo build, however what he fails to tell you is that you're supposed to be using both stalk and peekaboo at the same time.
Meaning if you can sneak up on someone and they don't see you, STALK THEM. There is not a lot of point just mindlessly running up to the gen to get a free hit when you could of potentially used his power to get a free down, leaning from cover to stalk can mark survivors extremely fast if they didn't happen to be looking there.
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If crossplay was enabled any console survivor would get absolutely destroyed by PC killers, simple as really.
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When I play survivor it's almost such a good change.
Then I play killer and when the servers decide 'well this is it' I play Demogorgon and find out I can't even charge or let go of my shred anymore, very fun.
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From my experience of playing a lot of him. You have to place the portals outside of the gens sight (ideally behind a wall or something they can't see out of) try and get a survivor down quickly as you can, use BBQ to locate the survivors and hope you went around enough gens placing portals near them so you can keep up the momentum. His portals aren't really that consistent at tracking because for a start you have to charge up your secondary power and just hope they are either super gen jockeys so they won't cleanse them, or while you are in a chase and you have activated portals they simply get cleansed and that's that.
Any other time I've tried playing Demogorgon in other ways in red ranks has usually ended badly for me at least, I've had the odd game where survivors rush me and are super alturistic so I never needed to use my portals. Pray that you have setup time and pray that your Ruin doesn't get cleansed too quickly, if you feel Ruin is going too quickly run Corrupt Intervention, it's a good perk on the Demogorgon.
As for shred it's one of those tools I've found that are good at baiting survivors into going off their pathing in an attempt to dodge it, if you want the best results (again just from my experience) charge up shred because survivors will hear a hissing noise and most high rank survivors will try to dodge it but simply uncharge shred and enjoy the fact that you are now closer because they kept going left to right. If they keep running in a straight line they'll either try dodging at the LAST second or they are calling your bluff, and at this point you either commit to the shred or let go of it.
Your build is very good for him, I'd swich out DL for Surveillance due to the fact that if you have an unactivated portal and the survivors go back onto the gen you can simply portal over there and catch them off guard.
From my experience perks to help in chase with the Demogorgon don't really see a lot of use because of his shred, the fact that he can shred pallets helps him a lot during a chase, if you're already a good M1 killer, in my opinion he will suit your gamestyle well if you know what to do during a chase.
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Honestly, I hate seeing Spirit, but I'd take a Hillybilly over her any day.
Even if you just run from hook to hook with him.
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Ruin.
It either lasts for about 2 minutes or 10 seconds, no inbetween unless you fancy standing next to it all game.
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Solo? Killer.
SWF? Survivor.
There isn't really an argument here, the leap from solo to SWF is stupidly long.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751149#Comment_751149
Survivors don't have to have perks to do well. They can complete gens really quickly even without a toolbox, and can survive easily without any perks if they tried. Killers shouldn't need them either. It's that simple. What's confusing about that?
A perk is not supposed to make them better by default, but change how a killer plays, or, perhaps, with SMART play, improve them. Addons are the same.
Are you ok with Legion being physically impossible to down people using their power? Because now that nurse has that kind of problem forming, I'm curious to know about Legion, who also has issues survivor mains don't want the devs to fix.
There is counterplay to nurse. Hide from her, outsmart her, or juke her. Also Dead Hard exists, and exhaustion perks help. Just don't loop. I don't see what the issue is... and I do play at high ranks. Nurse's kit rewards a killer's motor skill and punishes a survivors mistake of being found.
"At first I used to be like you". Did you play at high ranks as a killer at some point, or did you stop playing killer... because it sounds high and mighty with a tinge of survivor bias.
You're literally saying that killers shouldn't require perks to do well, that alone tells me that going in on a debate with you would be utterly pointless, Legion wasn't meant to down people with their power.
''There is counterplay to Nurse.'' Aside from hiding from her (which is a dumb argument considering you can say that about any killer) there isn't really much else you can do, ''outsmart her, juke her.'' It's really easy to just say isn't it? The only thing you can do to juke a Nurse is break LOS and hope she reads you wrong, again this is simply a guess.
And perks are supposed to help killers and survivors and people base their ENTIRE playstyles around what perks they are running so that is a really silly argument in of itself. If a killer didn't need perks to do well then that'd be an extremely boring experience and nobody would be having fun, guess what pre nerf Nurse was exactly this.
And no, I play high ranks as killer and survivor all the time. I'm not being survivor biased at all, but no I used to be like you, blindly defending something (in this case Nurse) and claiming that she had counterplay and didn't deserve nerfs even though someone in this thread pointed out how she had EVERYTHING going for her and nothing bad about her.
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@CrowFoxy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751149#Comment_751149
But when survivors have their counterplay vs any killer who isn't the top tier they get to rush gens ASAP, using their voice comms and loop the killer for 2 gens then take turns.
It's quite clear I won't get anywhere trying to properly formulate an argument against you. It's a trend with these forums that someone is either killer or survivor. I however choose to look at it from both perspectives and be fair to both sides.
However I'm going to try now.
Here is what you seem to miss about the survivors perspective. Their ONLY objective is to do gens, what you are calling genrush is the survivors simply doing what the game wants them to do. Voice comms only apply to SWF and even then you must think that every single SWF is on the level of the depip squad, constantly announcing every single thing the killer is doing to have the utmost advantage; this doesn't happen in every game and people need to stop acting like it does happen in all their games.
Obviously you're going to bump into a SWF group that is going to kick your tushy, but you act like you're completely helpless against them, you aren't. Myself and tons of other people have gone against tryhard SWF teams and have won, you just have to play much better with less mistakes. I'm not saying SWF is okay right now, it isn't okay and it does need to fall into line with how the general balancing of the game is.
Let's take a look at what happened when they made another killer with VERY limited counterplay, the Spirit.
Nearly everybody is up in arms against Spirit because of her power being near impossible to counterplay because at the end of the day you can't counter what you can't see, you can take an educated guess but even if you guess right you didn't outplay her, you guessed right.
Killers are in the best spot they've ever been in Dead by Daylight before but each side is screaming that one side needs more or this needs a nerf or a buff. At the end of the day each killer should have a form of counterplay to their kit so it isn't a complete stomp fest with nothing they could do, this is what Nurse was before, a killer with her basekit completely ruining the survivors ability to do anything against her aside from LOS breaks and just hoping she guessed wrong.
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@MasterUff said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751165#Comment_751165
If you get chased a little bit, have your unhooks and enough gens repaired to pip, yes. Easy bp and easy win for easy fun. And it usually dont take long. But I have to say, most killer seem to dc instead after gens pops too fast.
Gee, I wonder why.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751043#Comment_751043
A killer shouldn't require perks or addons to do well. That's why Billy, Spirit, and pre-rework Nurse were picked so much. Because you aren't forced to take Ruin every game, nor use certain addons to have the edge you need to win.
''A killer shouldn't require perks or addons to do well.'' Do you even hear yourself when you're typing crap like that out? So really if all killers were very good without perks slapping really good perks on them would just buff their already good power and throw survivors into the dirt, this is exactly why things like Nurse were nerfed in the first place.
I used to be like you and claimed that there was counterplay to Nurse and I frequently played her at red ranks all the damn time. And during all of my time playing her I learnt that I was wrong. Her basekit was so damn good, it ignored nearly every bit of counterplay that this game offers to you as a survivor. The only counterplay is to break LOS and hope she messes up so you can capitalize on her mistake, in short; a guess.
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If you DC as a survivor you've basically doomed your team to fail by making the game a freebie for the killer.
If you DC as a killer it was probably due to the fact that you were getting shredded, simple as really.
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@FlamingkittyUmad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751028#Comment_751028
Ruin takes away the progression bonus for hitting a great skillcheck. Taking away a boost is the same as imposing a negative.
It might not be much but skill checks add up really fast, and not even the most pro dbd players hit every great skillcheck 100% of the time
I think you're giving ruin just a bit too much credit at red ranks, the gens still fly whether or not ruin is active. I do agree with you when you say it does slow them down even if its just a bit, then all you do is hope you get a good first chase in.
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@FlamingkittyUmad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/751004#Comment_751004
The most import times for killer are the start of the match and after all gens are completed. a full minute of slowed progression is plenty of time to coordinate yourself.
Ruin does not just create "slightly harder skill checks", ruin imposes a hard progress penalty on every skillcheck (taking away great skill check progress bonus & freezing/ regressing a gen on a good skill check). the suvivors who work on gens take the progression penalties, and those who spent time looking/ cleansing the totem have not been repairing generators.
You're acting as if red rank survivors can't hit their skill checks, they aren't apes. They do actually know how to hit them quite consistently, it really isn't hard to hit greats once you've felt them out. And most red rank survivors won't look for ruin, they'll simply stumble on it as they power through it.
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@FlamingkittyUmad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/750979#Comment_750979
Actually it's more of a 50/50 between "run around the map looking for it (or even just a quick search)" and "powering through it", more or less based on survivors coordination/ experience. Also ruin isn't meant to last very long either, it's sheer power for slowing down the start of a trial is it's main benefit, even if it gets cleansed early on that's more time to gain momentum.
If ruin lasted for only a minute then it really didn't do its job at all. At that point the perk may as well say 'survivors get slightly harder skill checks, but it lasts for a minute', then that's that, you are now three perking the rest of the game. Like I said just fix totem spots honestly.
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Trying to justify Nurse before her nerf is pointless.
At the end of the day she broke the game in so many ways and killers relied on the Nurse to carry them through the ranks like it was nobody's business. So what you'd come across the odd survivor who because they've played against so many Nurse's have become good at using their resources to stay alive against her.
That being said, I don't agree with all the gutting she has been given but hey. I was sitting here hoping they'd nerf Spirit.
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@FlamingkittyUmad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/750979#Comment_750979
Actually it's more of a 50/50 between "run around the map looking for it (or even just a quick search)" and "powering through it", more or less based on survivors coordination/ experience. Also ruin isn't meant to last very long either, it's sheer power for slowing down the start of a trial is it's main benefit, even if it gets cleansed early on that's more time to gain momentum.
True, but not true at the same time, you saying if ruin lasts for even a minute then it did its job is a very untrue statement at red ranks. The fact being if it lasted for a minute the perk may as well say 'survivors have slightly difficult skill checks but only for a minute', then that's that, you are now 3 perking the rest of the game.
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Well, you've simply had bad games then. Not really sure what else to tell you.
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@FlamingkittyUmad said:
It's not that you need ruin, it's that ruin is so strong you would be a fool to not use it. even if ruin gets found 1 min into the match, that's time survivors spent not working on generators/ repairing slower- plenty of time to find and injure at least 1 survivor (if you're good at spawn sniping, killers have to come out of the gate kicking)
Most survivors just power through ruin and don't give a crap about the perks existence in most of their games. However when I play with ruin I at least expect it to be in a half decent spot, but nope there it is, in the middle of the wide open with absolutely nothing covering it.
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Some people hide to extend the amount of points they will get for staying alive for a long period of time, then most of the time (at least in my experience) they come out of hiding to get a chase in then they die.
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Honestly, just fix totem spots and the perk just becomes better to run and doesn't get cleansed in 10 seconds. For real.
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@altruistic said:
Most red rank players don’t use NOED, but I still always bring Small Game.
NOED is usually for Pleb killers anyways. I think it’s really popular in the green/purple ranks.
Actually so true, I spend a lot of my time at red ranks as survivor and I almost never EVER see a NOED being used. It's really popular at rank reset though my god it comes out in droves at rank reset, honestly from my experience it mostly only results in one kill due to NOED. Not saying they deserved the kill or whatever but they got it.
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Huntress, that ######### is brutal.
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@Unicorn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/738308#Comment_738308
I was afraid that trap placement would be difficult for him but we shall see. I appreciate your response ^.^
As long as your friend knows that trapping the killer shack is always a good idea and putting traps in grass near pallets/gens then he'll do well as the Trapper.
Always good to help out new people. :)
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/738138#Comment_738138
I keep reading that she has no counterplay, which really means “I can’t run a circle and loop her for 30 second and then drop a pallet and run to the next one.”
It's not that, its the fact that her power is just a guessing game. People will obviously feel cheesed and cheated if they just get stomped by Spirit's over and over which seems to be more common these days than it ever was before. Sure there are jukes you can do to increase your odds of not getting hit but at the end of the day the coin toss is heavily in the Spirit's favour.
In short if the person playing Spirit is good with her then you're going to go down.
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Trapper, he teaches new survivors that map pressure is important and also he's the most basic form of M1 killer so you can quite quickly learn how to chase and things like that.
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Well, the Demogorgon is a 9 ft monster from another dimension capable of sending grown men several meters away with a slap.
Oinky girl is just a girl in a piggy mask. (if only tho)
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@DemoDaddy31 said:
he's a killer that requires some form of skill to play, and the people who can't handle that go back to playing spirit
i already see some dumb people saying "easy to juke shred" while forgetting he has no cooldown if he cancels it, or just talking about his portals as if that's his main power
It basically is his main power though, his entire marketing scheme was the fact that you could use these portals to traverse the map and be like the Demogorgon from Stranger Things. His shred ability is barely mentioned and in one description of him it isn't even mentioned at all, the fact that his secondary power is the reason people play him just goes to show that his main power does need some buffing.
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People don't like the Spirit because her power once boiled down is just a coin flip guessing game. I've seen the arguments on here and most people will tell you that running to a window will just ruin the Spirit but most of them give you the wrong advice to counter her.
You don't really learn to counter the Spirit's power, more so you learn to take 'better guesses' against her to avoid getting hit, however if you do get hit you're pretty much going down unless you guess correctly at a pallet you might be at.
I don't mind her, but they do need to tweak Prayer Beads, it practically removes all counterplay to her.
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Like someone else said, NOED is only annoying to me if I'm the guy running around cleansing all the totems while my team don't give a rats ass about cleansing totems and only trying to rush the gens. Then when I eventually go down to a NOED it just feels cheesy considering I was trying to counter it.
But like someone else said, doing all 5 totems by yourself is just unrealistic.
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I find him fun, only problem is the fact that yeah his portals give you stealth, but not before telling EVERY survivor that you are using a portal, so any half awake survivor can just pay slightly more attention and listen for stomping that can be heard from 16 meters away.
I did get a good play though on Gas Heaven, I put a portal in the gas station behind the car and yoinked a David off a gen but honestly he wasn't paying attention.
Another issue with the Demogorgon is the portals just simply suck, mediocre tracking and teleportation (server wide sound) and you can get rid of them very quickly without really wasting too much time in the grand scheme of things. If they buff his portals (remove the server wide sound made when using one) then they will actually serve their purpose.
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You know what both Disturbed Ward and Father Campbell's Church have really garbage totem spots, I've had so many killer games on that map where they've just spawned in the wide open with tons of survivors already sitting on it.
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I like it when I hit people as the Demogorgon just so I can SCREAM AT THEM AND PUT THE FEAR OF GOD IN THEM.
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I had the exact same issue on that map, only difference for me was all four survivors spawned on top of it and it was cracked in about 20 seconds, it's actually ridiculous.
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I actually hate the balancing for Plague from a game health standpoint.
Just like someone else said damned if you do damned if you don't scenario, she's either tier 3 Myers or machinegun Huntress.
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I'm calling out his claims, that's not being a dick, however you making claims that you regularly 4k with old Freddy and him claiming he does it as LF with no addons (albeit he's console) is just bullshit. I've seen the odd game back in the day where someone did actually win against a red rank team with old Freddy.
However claiming you regularly did it at red ranks? Yeah sorry no you didn't, unless you regularly ran into potato red ranks because most of them are just potatos because getting to red ranks is actually really easy so.