Dead by gaslight
how long are we going to accept kill/escape rate stats as truthful when DC matches are disregarded including those where dc happened without penalty- a clear 4k??
They should include all matches. I’m fine if devs want 15% escape rate … just be honest about it. Gaslighting feels so demeaning.
Comments
SWF escape rates were barely higher than solo queue last time they showed the stats. Yes its helpful but not if you get a competent killer playing one of the several overtuned characters currently on the roster. A 4 man SWF just won't give you nearly the results of putting some hours into a S tier killer and going on 100's long winstreaks.
The last random blight with 4 slowdown perks and strong add ons I faced, I asked what his winstreak was. He said 105. I'm lucky to get 5 escapes in a night on survivor. This extreme level of disparity when it comes to rewarding experience with one role over the other is ridiculous.
You say 5 gen chases are no longer possible, meaning the maps are so worthless now, most of the time you're guaranteed to get hit once you are forced to use a strong pallet (the distance to the next is too far). In other words, survivor skill ceiling is consistently hammered down. Why then, is it always the fault of a survivor for "being outplayed" by being tunneled the moment the match starts? It's really a poor state of the game when the culmination of 1000's of hours of survivor experience has been reduced to "well you get to decide which corner of the map to die in".
The new anti "go-next" mechanic is too new to draw any assumptions. If by "agenda" you mean transparency - yes.
I do know Photoshop exists and/or you can play in like a sweat SWF to get those numbers right? Solo is more like 10% escape probability and those are dependent on the killer literally letting survivors escape. Only killers demand 95% win rates and BHVR protects them for that because it's the only demographic that really matters in the game.
Arguing about gaslighting is irrelevant to the point I made. Also, I explained my reasoning, so everyone can post their POV about reliability of stats.
However, if we you wish to scrutinize my terminology, my POV is that devs create stats and use it as a guidance for "balance", i.e., 60/40. But they are aware that huge chunk of DC matches would anyway end up in 3k or 4k, i.e., snowballing Nurse, Oni , Blight and many other situations
without disclosing it, makes SoloQ survivors question their sanity when their stat sheet shows over 40% escape rate, when actually I would barely escape once every 6-7 matches. That is gaslighting.😂😂😂 yeah, I totally photoshopped it. Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you just refuse to accept reality. No point in trying to convince you any more
Then you shouldn't have put the word "gaslight" in the title, nor ended your post with "Gaslighting feels so demeaning". Simple as that. If you imply the devs are "gaslighting" you and calls attention to it in the title, then expect replies about this subject.
You just described an entire situation that has nothing to do with gaslighting but inserted the word "sanity" in the middle of it just to make it seem it had something to do with it at all. You are simply talking about people seeing displayed data that doesn't correspond to how they think things are based solely on your personal experience, that's it, not even close to the definiton of gaslighting. Do you think any local research institute is "gaslighting" you everytime you see data about your country that is different from what you expect? Even if there's a flaw on the method used to gather data, that is not "gaslighting" in any shape or form.
And the mere fact that you can come up with the interpretation you are making about the stats shows there IS transparency. They made clear what were the stats and what matches were counted on it, than you made an assumption about how to interpret the stats and what is not really shown with the method chosen. ACTUAL lack of transparency would be not even letting the players know the time data was collected and that some matches didn't count, and even that would not be "gaslighting", by definiton.
To be fair, that has less to do with your skill or your teammates and more to do with maps being so bad that you barely have anything to work with, Coldwind Farm in particular.
No matter how good you are, there isn't much you can do if the game doesn't give you enough resources to protect yourself.
Why wouldn't I put it in the headline if I see it as suiting?! Just because you chose to misdirect the point of this thread with semantics and I pointed it out?! Makes no sense and try better.
The second part of your argument just doesn't address nor my response, nor the core subject of this thread and is just "putting words in my mouth" by twisting my arguments to absurd.
Did you even read about the issue in question?! The whole point is that these stats are misleading because they ignore any DC matches even if it happened without penalty
There's other important variables as well. How often is matchmaking so skewed that you're counting genuine (aka not camping/tunneling/slugging or gen rush squad) steamrolls? How often does Killer allow the survivors to win/the survivors give up during the trial? The kill rates are a comp metric that don't apply to a game like DBD.
They don’t exclude matches with abandons (what you refer to as “DC without penalty”). Please stop spreading lies. Go ahead and ask a dev, or anyone else on this forum who actually knows what they are taking about.
The stats do exclude real DCs, which are not common, especially now with harsher DC penalties. You can go ahead and keep trying to convince yourself that the stats are somehow grossly skewed because that’s the only narrative that’s acceptable to you, even if all the facts prove you wrong. If that’s the case, then there’s no point in arguing with you further.
Why would I waste time on things that are well known. If you have source that can show your claims to be valid, please educate me and others. I will change my position if so.
The example given isn't gaslighting; it's omission of data, and the point stands that the devs have been crystal clear about what makes the stats.
As you say, "gaslighting" isn't relevant to the point being made, but it is relevant when falsely accusing others in a post. It's misleading. Anyway, other than that I was in agreeance with you that more info was ideal, so if the "gaslighting" aspect was irrelevant, then why focus on that instead of noting I supported the general idea? You have the positive point, so why focus on the "irrelevant" negative?
Dude, if you think the title is suiting, then discussing the usage of the word "gaslight" IS relevant. It's funny that at one time you try to act as if it's relevant and then when you get called out for it you pretend that it isn't anymore. It's not "misdirection" if people are disagreeing with a point you tried to make in your own freaking title, don't be dishonest. Also, your previous comment wasn't even replying to me. You see, I'm not the only one talking about that, you MADE the thread about gaslighting the moment you chose that title.
The second part of my comment is straight up adressing a completely non-sensical thing you tried to argue multiple times on this thread. You implied more than once it was gaslighting because of some lack of transparency or disclosure. I pointed out why that doesn't even make sense, and of course you simply choose not to give a proper response, you have no good response to give and choose to deflect instead.
So you should be able to run a killer for 5 gens, is what your saying. 3 other survivirs can play M1 sim.
Because something isn't broken like before doesn't make them useless. The same argument was said when infinites and double pallets were removed.
Still said nothing about having to rely on three other players to survive. Killers only have themselves and their skill. Survivors, no matter how good, cannot 1v1 the killer and do all 5 gens. That's the difference. The escape rate for SWF overall is much higher than average. That's because playing the solo lottery will bite you.
Why would BHVR be honest about it? They still want you to believe they give a crap about the Survivor experience despite making it one of the least fun experiences in all of gaming.
Very true and wasn't what I was implying. Back in the day you could nearly 1v1 the killer without much effort.
What I'm saying is, why you don't see very high escape streaks is due to not being able to rely only on yourself. The quality of your team strongly influences if you will survive or not. That is why most attempts do so as a SWF and not as solo. With four people there's an increased chance of one messing up bring down the other three.
How many games are you playing, on average?
Nope, I'm saying if high level survivor skill is going to be capped, so should killer. In other words, I can't run a killer for 5 gens because after 35 seconds the game says "there there buddy its ok, here have a free hit with this 20% speed boost. its ok you don't need to learn how to run a LT wall as killer". That being the case, your above average sweaty blight main shouldn't regularly go weeks without losing a match.
I'd like to know where you're getting your escape rate stats since the last time they were shown, SWF barely made any difference. Or are you saying since a "high mmr" 4 man still escapes less than half the time, its perfectly fine for high mmr killers to regularly win 100's of matches?
You're arguing with a Killer Main, i.e. a brick wall. Killer Mains think they should only be getting 4Ks without having to work for it, so they call any Killer they're bad with "weak" even when the stats don't back it up. They think Survivors should be happy that they get away once every ten matches. They think doing generators fast is toxic, yet think tunneling, slugging and camping are valid strategies. The only fun they care about is their own, and unfortunately BHVR is on their side. It's why the game sucks as Survivor right now, because BHVR only listens to the side of the selfish side of the community.
15-20 games a day. I have over 100 hours over the past 2 weeks on steam alone. The vast majority of them before the anniversary was with leavers.
So, you're seeing at least one DC in 16 out of 20 matches? That's rather odd.
You can't balance around the top tier players. Imagine how painful survivor would be if the devs balanced around survivors playing like Hens or Ayrun.
Do you just blatantly lie in every one of your posts?
Bloodlust your reason for a skillcap or is it just an example? Because it's a poor one. Yes after chasing a survivor for 35 seconds a killer may get a single hit. May, because that hit is not guarantee like you are claiming. Your scenario is based on running a single tile and not chaining tiles like, you know, an experienced survivor would.
The same place as you get them but it seems you are not reading them in the same way. Take what I've stated earlier, the killer role you only have yourself while with survivor you have to rely on others. When it comes to playing DBD for the first time, with zero knowledge of the game, who will win? The killer or survivor? Anybody with real experience with this game will say the killer will win more times than not. Why? Because new survivors don't know how to use the resources available to them. They run without looking behind thinking the killer only takes the same path they take. The game used to be balanced with these players in mind. Pallets and windows just a stones throw from each other. Survivors could be as wasteful as they want. Looping wasn't necessary because you could just run to the next pallet and be safe. This wasn't skill, this wasn't managing resources, this was run to pallet run to pallet. Now give that survivor a brain and see how someone with skill could run a killer for 5 gens. Give all four survivors a brain and see how even switching targets becomes a huge time sink.
Let's look at those stats. I will just look at the High MMR ones as the overall stats includes new players where, as stated before, will die more often due to not knowing the game. High MMR can reasonably be assumed the survivors are skilled in escaping as that is how you gain MMR as survivor.
Solo 40.4%, 2xSWF 40.0%, 3xSWF 42.3%, and 4xSWF 48.2%. Solo and 2xSWF are statistically the same. 3xSWF slightly above the means and 4xSWF a huge outlier. As in my other post, I've stated the survivor role is not based solely on the individual survivor skill. It is based on the overall skill and cooperation of the team that determines if they escape or die. Does the numbers not follow this logic? As a solo survivor you are at the mercy of match making to provide you will evenly skilled teammates. *(Maybe when SBMM was strict but it's very loose right now.) If those teammate don't pull their wait or "go next" by not doing anything, your chances of surviving that match becomes very low.
You cannot 1v1 the killer and complete 5 gens.
As a duel SWF you have one other person you can rely on but two randoms can still throw the entire match away. A three man SWF though has the highest chance of survival outside 4xSWF as one random survivor being bad doesn't completely destroy your chances. A bad survivor can still hold M1 on a gen.
A 4xSWF, where you try to dismiss, has a much higher escape rate than the other three. Why is that? These are supposedly good survivors at all four categories. What does a 4x group bring that 2x or 3x does not? A team that won't give up on each other. A team where 1 or 2 randoms don't throw 2 seconds into the match.
'* I also want to point out that SBMM was at one point very strict when it came to the High MMR experience. But you would have content creators complaining everyday that all their matches were sweat after sweat. Kill streaks were much rarer and many didn't attempt them. It wasn't until BHVR caved and loosen the SBMM that content creators began their kill streak sagas again. What does that tell you? It should tell you that they are taking advantage of a looser standard in match making and preying on survivors less skilled than they.
He is arguing with a killer main but that is all you got right in this post.
They're just trying to live up to the topic title.
But there’s literally a comment in this thread saying killers can’t lose if they play like streamer one trick killer mains, both sides should be balanced the same so if you want to balance killer gameplay around the top 1% who play as their job, then you have to do the same for survivor to be fair.
If you’re balancing around average survivors then you can’t expect killers to play to a level you don’t think is fair to expect of survivors.
Sure you can’t lose if you play like a streamer who plays as their job full time but the same applies to both sides which people don’t admit.
It’s always killers are too strong as this streamer can go on streaks, but balance around average survivors as you can’t expect them to play like survivor streamers who go on streaks.
"Just chain tiles!" Never mind that every map has been reworked to put any strong tile next to a resource wasteland to prevent exactly that. That's exactly what im referring to when I say survivors skill expression is currently hard capped. Anything in the game that high skill survivors can leverage gets nuked.
And you're lying through your teeth pretending like 80% of the current garbage loops aren't a free hit by the time bloodlust 2 is reached. I acknowledged that 4 man swf at high mmr has a slightly better performance and yet they are still losing more than they win. How does that compare to the results high tier killers are having? Right. Not remotely in the same ballpark.
So the same killers that currently blame matchmaking for the ridiculous winstreaks are the ones who whined to get matchmaking changed to begin with? And we cant nerf their favorite broken killers because they might face a team capable of giving them a fair match once per hundred games? Wow its almost like all roads lead back to killers should continue being allowed to win 95% of their matches.
if we're not going to allow high skill survivors to express skill and we also want to continue balancing as a comp vs party game, we're left with:
1. Nerf S tier killers
2. Unnerf maps so high skill survivors have a chance
3. Make matchmaking actually work
Why are you (presumably) playing the game then? If it’s so miserable, go play something else. Plenty of other people (including myself) enjoy playing the game and that includes the survivor role (I play solo queue).
This is the perfect example of the “us vs them” garbage that makes up like 95% of the toxicity on this forum. Why don’t you actually try playing the other side to get some perspective instead of just constantly trashing killer players?
Lol right? Everyone who actually plays the game knows this is 100% false. If people want to make fools of themselves by continually defend things that are blatant lies, I guess we should just let them go for it.
Yes it applies to both sides. Balancing around top tier players on either end is a bad idea.
If you balance around average players then what do you do when those players get better and it makes the game unbalanced?
Yeah, the same ones. And at the time they openly said they couldn't do kill streaks because every match was sweaty.
And no, not just anything. I'm not saying survivor is simply do x and win.
You're complaining about "broken" killers and killstreaks but then say bloodlust is an issue. What killer going for killstreaks is gaining bloodlust 3 with a "broken" killer?! Do you think Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Ghoul, etc are even gaining bloodlust 1? No, bloodlust comes from M1 killers without decent chase powers. If any player is relying on getting BL3 I will guarantee you their streak will be a short one.
The vast majority of player will fall into the average range. Truly great players are a rarity. That said yes the top tier players will probably feel an unbalanced match more but that's the problem with PvP and ASYM games. You'll basically always have that issue even with good match making. Ultimately you have to balance things in a way that gives the most people the best experience you can give them.
Most PvP games balance for the top because people can always get better and improve; if balanced for the average leaving the top unbalanced then there’s nothing those top players can do except accept it or quit playing.
I'm not saying there aren't improvements that can be made to even things out for higher tier players. However you can't have those players as your main consideration. If you do you'll end up alienating the majority of your players as they aren't alot of truly high tier players and never will be in DbD.
Before I quit a month or two ago at least 50% of my matches had at least 1 survivor go next, troll, sebo their own team or just ruin the game.
The vast majority of players in PvP games will never reach the highest levels of gameplay. One important factor is time. The vast majority of players for PvP games are casual players whose skill level falls in the Average and Above Average brackets.
While they can improve, they aren't necessarily interested in treating the game like a job. They play to have fun, regardless of whether they win or lose. Very few of these players will ever reach the highest levels of play. To put into Overwatch terms, a few of these players might reach Diamond but the vast majority will remain in Gold/Plat.
But they don’t make say headshots easier to hit with Widow for example because average players can’t reliably hit them, because as you get better you can hit more of those shots and it would make the gameplay super oppressive at higher skill levels. People can always improve no matter how much or little you play.
You can’t buff killers because average players get looped too long because they can get better, you can’t balance around teammates not doing anything because at higher ranks they will, you can’t add extra pallets because survivors don’t know how to use loops because better players will be able to use them too effectively.
Games aren't balanced exclusively around the top 1%. They are balanced around the majority. You can read any of Riots patch notes for any of their games and they explain it there, or any of the hundreds of hours of them talking about why balancing for everyone is the best solution. Overwatch does the exact same thing, the game is balanced for the majority. Something BHVR doesn't do. They balance almost exclusively for the top 1%, that's why there are barely any changes to solo queue when that is the vast majority of players. Killers don't get nerfed in their base ways, they get their high end brought down.
I will try to add up to this, most and if not majority of my matches the people that DC usually are certain types of people
- 2 pre mades only (dc in pair)
- 1 single survivor wanting tomes and quests but killer kills and hooks
- and then entire pre made squad when they realize flashlights dont work on killer.
I was talking specifically about DCs. The things you mention are not the same as DCs.
if you at escaping 15% of you games then idk waht to tell you . Definetly not the average for me
If you balance around the highest level of play, I guarantee you the balance will not trickle down.
If you balance around the potential for players to improve, then you alienate the casual player. The vast majority of casual players will never reach high MMR, thus the focus shouldn't be on improving balance for high MMR. Especially in a game like Dead by Daylight, where the asymmetrical nature means that balancing around the top would make high skill-floor killers downright oppressive.
Evidence of this can be seen in Overwatch with Tracer, who has only ever been bad during the GOATS meta. She's easily dealt with at the highest levels of play, but can be downright oppressive and obnoxious to play against for the average player.
The high MMR experience doesn't need balance changes to be improved. It needs fundamental changes that benefit everyone, such as playing for hooks instead of kills.
You wouldn’t be playing against high skilled killers if you are not at high MMR as eventually those killers will be at high MMR and you will not be if you don’t improve to play at that level.
What you are saying is that people just have to quit playing or accept that they might reach a point if they play well where there are things they cannot do anything about no matter how skilled they are, and that’s bad for the game.
If your issue is that the matchmaker could use some work as it sometimes throws one side to the wolves by feeding lower MMR players to higher MMR players then that I can agree with but it’s a seperate issue to game balance.
Edit to add I completely agree with balancing around hooks instead of kills 100%
I checked my stats and a game where we all got slugged and abandoned counted as an escape lmaoo its deffo scuffed
Right, i guess what im getting at is that the end result between DCing and other ways survivors can greif a match is more or less the same so distinguishing between those isnt exactly super useful at least to us as players. For the developers that kind of information could be useful, for us though, we cant really do anything with that more specific information. Thats why I tend to lump it all in together.
Because by playing Killer you only rely on yourself and when playing Survivor you rely on your 3 teammates. 4 of yourself on comms would easily get 80% escape rate.