Killer is in the worst state it has ever been
I’ve been playing this game since 2018 and have close to 5000 hours total. I recently returned after break, and man has the fun been sucked out.
It doesn’t matter if your chases are short. Unless you pick a section of the map to defend right at the beginning, you are going to lose if they decide to do the gens. Then there’s the killers. I tried xeno for the first time and it was an awful experience. A large chunk of its power is controlled by survivors and the tail requires pinpoint precision, meanwhile survivors get to plop down a turret whenever they feel like it. On top of that, a huge amount of loops don’t even let you use the power because they are too high.
This game’s problem is the same that it has always been: survivors have too many resources and second chances, on top of chained tiles and safe pallets. I legitimately don’t understand how anyone says that killer is easy. It was significantly easier when I started playing because even though survivors had major dirt, killer stuff could at least come close to matching it. Now every killer has been neutered to oblivion in the name of survivor fun.
This game needs to be balanced as a 1v4. Individual survivors hold far too much power for most killers to handle. It feels damn near impossible to win with certain killers and rng spawns.
Comments
This forum isn’t the majority of the playerbase. People who post on here, generally, care more about the game than the average dbd player.
That's all fine and good, but you can't piss off 99% of the playerbase just because us tryhard comp players don't like to scrim against each other.
I learned. I didn’t start the game knowing what I was doing, and it took many losses to get good. I don’t think asking a playerbase to learn a game they supposedly like is some huge thing. Balancing around bad players is a slap in the face to people who have played and supported BHVRs game.
It's called being smart.
You CANNOT balance this game around comp players. The game would be absolutely horrible for the casual player.
What you are doing is taking away the choice you had. You CHOSE to play and take this silly game competitively. So did I. Most people don't for a reason and we shouldn't force that choice on them
You may not know that OP think they're at that smallest percentage groups, and want that 4 players SWF of 48% escape rate dropped down to 40% to call it balance.
Historically, most games have balanced around max potential/high skill and have done just fine. The reason for this is that the cheesy exploitable stuff isn’t useable by the average player. Joe newcomer isn’t chaining together tiles, so doing something like preventing certain spawns would mostly affect tryhards.
BHVR should be balancing out survivors more, while creating far better tutorials that actually teach people how to play their game.
High MMR Survivor is still sub-50%
Also, those games aren't asymm and they haven't shifted balancing philosophy 8 years in
You are using a faulty premise to argue with a strawman.
As much chance as 4 equally matched survivors should have at a 4e. The only thing Hensen's post is missing is saying 'on average'.
48% and 40% is huge balance discrepancy. how do you balance killers with such discrepancy? Do you balance every killer around 40% or around 48%. If you balance around 40% then when killer player goes against 48% player, He is going feel like there is no chance to win. If you balance around 48% then killer will be deemed as over performing on average.
Woundcowboy is playing killer's balanced around 40% but is playing against the 48% so in his view, Killer is too weak.
No one know their MMR to assure they're playing against the very small fraction of 48%.
Mandy said high MMR group is only a very small fraction, say 10% of total. And thats split up to Solo, Duo, Trio, and Squad. For 1 thing I can assure that they are not against Squad in the top 10%.
The gaps between a newbie Trapper with Brown addon; and a god Nurse with strong addon, stacking 4 slowdown and tunneling. Is just as great as 4 newbie Solo with yellow perks and Knightligh team stacking meta and items. You cant close the gap between them, on both sides
So everyone is in high MMR but magically only you get the actual high MMR survivors?
Not at all. I win most of my matches because, as I said, most people aren’t good at the game. Unlike the lower bracket killers though, I run into the sweat/SWF groups more than the average player does. That’s when the game’s imbalance is on display.
“it took many losses to get good” with the way you constantly complain about how killer is impossible, you probably cant take A loss at all.
Noone in this game runs into comp swfs a majority of the time.
Not even people with more hours than several of us combined and play this game as a career, run into comp SWF's a majority of the time.
Just because it doesn’t happen a majority of the time doesn’t make it ok.
Yea but asking for changes to the game based on those types of players, knowing full well they do not represent anywhere near the majority of the player base, is silly.
You'd have more people quit the game then stay.
Im pretty decent at survivor but nowhere near as good as comp teams. And I would leave the game if they just insist on creating nurse after nurse after nurse. Wouldn't you agree?
This is absolutely false. It is the best for killers, even the DBD data proves it https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650168#Comment_3650168. Not only that, the kill rate doesn't bake in the % of hatch escapes , people who disconnect from D-bag camping/tunnelers and the killers who purposely let survivors go.
It's also a snowball advantage for killers. Just because you have 0 hooks after 2-3 gens are done, does not mean the amount of pallets left available AND the amount of territory you have to defend shrinks significantly - making comebacks sooooo much easier for killers.
There are no such advantage for survivors.
I don’t think they’d quit. People complain about killers now and for literally years on end, yet they don’t leave.
As for your point about Nurse, sure, variety is better. If the game were better balanced, you could use killers like pig and doctor and have better matches.
We've been constantly dropping players, they'd definitely quit if every Killer jumped to 75% Kill Rate because of 1/1000000 comp teams
This is friendly reminder to you.
Stop trying to argue with them.
Ok, let's try to keep the discussion civil and constructive.
Thank you.
I'm afraid the killer skew in outcome that BHVR has reported doesn't support your opinion. If the game was survivor skewed, you would expect a different outcome being recorded that was opposite to what we are actually seeing.
That's the problem with pesky empirical measurement, it doesn't really care how we feel or think and won't change to fit our opinion. We have to modify our opinion to fit the data and the data is saying killers kill more than survivors escape.
That's why I said if you are complaining that there is a loss of variable strategy, and a blander game experience, due to games playing out in a similar fashion... Then you'd have something. Because with the new anti-camp and the new anti 3 gen plus built in BT and a bunch of other changes, we are generally seeing one style of play being favored by the mechanics more than others and frankly that's bland. But as for the game being survivor sided the current kill vs escape numbers BHVR released just don't support that point of view.
"This forum isn’t the majority of the playerbase. People who post on here, generally, care more about the game than the average dbd player." - I'd be really careful with this one too as it assumes the motivation of forum posters and to apply directly to the topic it has to also assume that regular forum posters are likely higher MMR. There is no evidence, or even measure, of this whatsoever.
I'd wager a lot of opinions about the game being unbalanced can be boiled down to players overestimating themselves rather than genuine mechanical or balance issues.
I am a killer main all day long. I do play survivor from time to time. I feel that the matches are mostly fair. I play the majority of the killers. Some feel weaker than others.
I feel that SWF using outside communication is a bit unfair however, I still play the game. My matches are random. Some I do great m, some I lose badly Some are a tie.
Its still fun for me. The way I have the most fun is I don't care about a win or a loss. It's that simple. The very nature of a game is, you win some and you lose some.
Just try to do what you can. Play how you want. Just don't cheat. Remember, win and lose with dignity.
I don’t necessarily think killer is bad balance-wise, but it’s miserable fun-wise. Too many killers with bad, clunky powers that feel awful to use, too many gigantic maps full of clutter and god windows and dozens of safe pallets, too many perks with little-to-no synergy or reward, too many basekit systems that put guardrails all over killer gameplay.
It’s just not that fun to play killer. I don’t even feel like I’m playing against the survivors a lot of the time; I’m playing against BHVR, and the survivors are there too.
Anymore I play maybe 1 or 2 killer games a week, and the rest of the time it’s solo queue survivor. The number of times I pick “Play killer,” look at the killer roster, and then just back out to pick “Play survivor” lately is depressing.
This is nowhere near as bad as the decisive crutch/unbreakable meta in 2019. People just did gens in my face because they knew they had health insurance and I couldn't productively do anything about them. I either ate a stun or let them get up, either way I lose time.
Though with decisive on the road map, I'm worried that type of survivor is gonna come back.
Don't forget that BHVR has been adding invisible walls everywhere, because they don't like it when people find ways to get on top of objects which only hurts ranged killers ability to snipe.
uhh—that hurts survivors’ ability to cheese killers by making them fall into holes or off ledges without landing a hit. lol. Survivors were the ones who could easily exploit that. Not killers…
Really? This state is worse than Survivors having Four meta perks of the apocalypse? The busted toolbox/medkit add ons? When Survivor could just tap a generator and undo the kick you just invested? When the sprint burst from getting hit is much more potent? When Healing wasn't nerfed and everyone and their grandmother heals within a few seconds then come back to mess with you? When maps had more safe pallets in general? When maps were much more larger in favor of survivors? When dead hard is in the game and was essentially a third health state? Really the current state is worse than that?
What?
Yes, it’s well known that most people aren’t good at the game. When people who don’t know how to play are against each other, it favors killer. When each side knows the game, killer is at a massive disadvantage.
What everyone wants to know is what indicates the majority of players. For example, the average chase time, the average number of hooks rather than the number of kills, and the statistics that are not "intentionally avoiding the MFT era and the 3 generator system period and receiving a kill rate buff from Lights Out" is.
Just ask dbd Japan's official That fact and the kill rate indicate that the median MMR is filled with beginners.
All of the skilled players here will be able to break into the top tier of MMR.
I find it very strange that there is a disconnect between their ability and the attitude that calls for killers to be nerfed.
I started playing in 2019 and it is nowhere to be true.
Good ol' times back then killer gameplay was like:
Wait out a Dead Hard. Every game. Every chase. Even if you wait out they might still use it for distance and you can't do anything about it. Fun.
OOO SWF knowing where you are 100% of time. Fun.
Key escapes, boy I LOVED when you killed obe person and everyone just evaporates from the trial. Fun.
Boon: free healing, wounding someone means nothing. Fun.
These days you might see an annoying Buckle Up+FTP SWF, but that's it.
Again we would see a heavy skew in outcome when survivors are coordinated, which would probably be represented by a much larger survival rate between SWF and Solo as SWF tend to be the most coordinated. But the most recent numbers didn't have that big of a skew, it was like less than 10% if I recall.
So if killer is only disadvantaged in the rare circumstance that they face a highly coordinated, highly experienced team and by the numbers highly coordinated, highly experienced teams are not representative of the majority of games.
Then you are looking at a very tiny number of games were you are disadvantaged from game start purely due to match up. Intrinsically killer has the mechanical advantage because the survivor advantage is reliant on team coordination something outside of BHVR's control.
This again is represented by the kill vs escape ratio favoring killer overall.
ugh... then why comment at all, just reading the headline is like a breeding ground for uninformed opinion.
"I didn't even engage or understand the topic but I'll comment on it anyway" Why?
You have to consider game balance based around high level play, in which everyone knows how to play. Saying that the balance is fine because a lot of people don’t know the game is a cop out. It doesn’t matter if it’s rare (and in my experience it isn’t as rare as people like to claim): the killer should never be out of a match before it begins. People can learn to play the game and get to a high level, which makes the hand holding mechanics BHVR has added (like base BT) incredibly overpowered. It’s lazy thinking to say that the majority should dictate how we play and think about the game.
It’s only logical that people who know the game and have put in time are going to stomp less experienced players. The worrying trend I am seeing with this game is that BHVR is trying to make it easier for inexperienced players to beat experienced players, and I don’t think that’s how it should be. I also think that this community has a lot of dishonest people who advocate around “casual” balance even though they know the game because they want to keep their advantage as survivors.
"Saying that the balance is fine because a lot of people don’t know the game is a cop out." - I've said nothing of the sort.
"It’s lazy thinking to say that the majority should dictate how we play and think about the game." - I've also said nothing of the sort.
You are making a case that the game is trending towards survivor sidedness, you've framed it as "killer is in the worst state its ever been". You do make some good points about survivor contending 1v1 against killers which would have been more accurate back in the early days of boons, with all the self heals and the set ups that require less team interaction. A lot of that has been attenuated, not all but a lot.
The results show you are more likely to die as survivor than to survive by a ratio of about 60-40. Unless I'm mistaken those results stem across MMR, a BHVR dev can correct me on this if they like.
"Intrinsically killer has the mechanical advantage because the survivor advantage is reliant on team coordination something outside of BHVR's control." This previous point I made holds true even for high MMR.
The only way to break it down is to show outcome ratio across MMR brackets, which as far as I'm aware they haven't. If you were to see a major switch between that 60-40 ratio between MMR bracket you could make a case for some of the things you are saying but as it stand the basis of your point is predicated solely on how you subjectively feel about the game.
The point is just as subjectively applicable to killer as to survivor, meaning it doesn't have a great deal of basis.
We aren't saying that all games should be balanced around average players, we are saying average outcome appears to be skewed toward killer. If this average takes in all MMR (and I have no reason to believe it doesn't)... then guess what games even at high MMR are still on average killer skewed.
So how you feel the game is progressing isn't necessarily backed up by what's observed, at least by current records released. With that in mind you may want to reassess the basis for how you feel - is my point.
To begin with, what is a high MMR?
What is the point of a discussion that does not reveal numerical values?
this is laughable. killer is as easy as its ever been. sorry for you, and good luck. looks like this is the cap on your skill.
Please check the dates of the last comment of threads you comment in.
Both of your posts on this forum are in threads that have been left dead for 1,5 months and the other for 10 months!
Many of this old discussions aren't fully relevant anymore due to the changes to the game in the meantime. (Not necessarily true for the 6-7 weeks old one but definitely for the 10 months.)
When was Freddy changed? I've lost track.
Also, it would probably mean Omega Nurse is back too. 😁
Sounds like a skill issue. If you're losing to solo queue survivors with 5000 hours logged in the current version of the game then it's on you.
Playing killer has never been easier imo. I barely lose games these days even against full sweat SWF squads.
If the Killer side is in it's worst state right now, then why is there always BP incentives on for survivors every time I play? (EU servers) Wouldn't that mean people are playing more killer than survivors?
To answer OP, and maybe put this thread to rest:
No, the game is not survivor-sided at all. You are almost certainly guaranteed to get two kills at the minimum, unless you play extremely fair on the survivors, which most killers tends not to do.
Killers are at the strongest they have ever been, and as someone who often plays survivor solo or duo, I can say that the experience on this side is miserable. If you want to torment yourself: play survivor. If you want to have fun: play killer
Killer has never been easier
People need to understand that they are bad at a game, just that simple
You’re calling people bad at the game when you are the same person who dodges Nurse. Look in the mirror.
there no bad or good at the game some people going have a lot of bad games and goods games but the game is a buggy mess with Messed up MMR when you add what map or item perks add on used the game becomes a coin flip
on top of all the there what killer is used on map ( like some maps are good for some killers and bad for others or vice versa)or these all solo or some swf if not all swf.
still gos like this
SWF>Killer>SOLO
so yea killer is a little easier but if you get a swf group 2/2.2/3.solo/4 or 4 Solo that work like there swf group then a lot of killers are in trouble in that match.
SWF still gets out less than 50% of the time.
oh God I'm back here again
Wrong person
Pay attention to the names not the profile picture