Survivor-Caused 3-Gens. No Big Deal Anymore?
The proposed '3-gen solution' seems like it should genuinely nerf 3-genning killers while leaving 'normal' killers unaffected, but what about 3-gens caused by the survivors?
It seems like if survivors 3-gen themselves, it's no big deal anymore since they can just play it slow and defensive and burn through the killer's kicks.
This is exactly what many were worried about, as survivors 3-genning themselves and the killer capitalising on it was seen as fair. Now survivors can just do whatever gens they want and don't need to worry.
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In a 3 gen scenario, with a team of survivors that communicate, this is absolutely possible. You simple call out when the killer starts running to someone else, that person preruns really hard, meaning that they are probably running at 24-30 meters away. Do you know how long it takes a killer to catch up to a survivor that is 30 meters away to hit them? 44 seconds. And that is just for a single hit. Now to down them, its another 20 seconds if they just shift + w.
By the time the killer walks back to the gen that the other survivors are doing, that gen will be finished. And, if the killer abandons the chase, that survivor just calls out to the others that the killer dropped chase, and they get ready to run super early again, that injured survivor (if the killer actually injured them) just gets healed up, and they repeat until the killer can't regress the gens anymore and they slowly get the gens worked on until they are complete while being almost 100% safe.
You don't even need pallets or windows or anything.
Then factor in that these teams communicate super hard, and you are likely going to get 3 gens done for the first down. The killer stands 0 chance against these teams now if they want to drag the game out.
As for the AFC mechanic, it was pretty abusable at launch before they added the grace period on it, so now its a lot less abusable which is nice. However i have had a handful of matches where someone runs me to the survivor who is hooked in say, basement shack, i start mindgaming, but instead of running the tile, they just leave the tile to somewhere else, so while i'm mindgaming a survivor that isn't there the timer is ticking away. However this has been less of a problem due to the grace period and the better vertical detection on camping.
Lastly, Against these top tier teams, yeah MFT was not quite a buff, but it is still strong. When i face these coordinated teams, they typically run dead hard/DS/MFT/hyperfocus(or some healing perk) you know, all those dead perks that kept getting nerfed? I wonder why top teams continue to run them....
You can't patrol a gen that fast unless you are blight or nurse. 4.5 seconds is enough to stop gen tapping but its not going to make me 3 gen harder.
I’m worried about this too but we don’t know for sure how things are going to play out in game. The buff to kicks and no more gen-tapping should offset any problems. We just have to wait and see for PTB.
You simple call out when the killer starts running to someone else, that person preruns really hard, meaning that they are probably running at 24-30 meters away.And they finish the gens long before the killer gets to 8 regressions in this scenario.
Either the killer chases the survivor, in which case a gen gets finished, or the killer doesn't chase a survivor and rotates back and forth between gens, in which case the gens still get finished, just slower.
Survivors ability to do gens exceeds killer's ability to regress them. Whether a regression limit exists or not has nothing to do with that. All that changes is it prevents a killer from dragging out the 3 gen into the 30/40 minute game times (though the buff to kick damage has made the initial holding of the 3 gen much stronger).
Then factor in that these teams communicate super hard, and you are likely going to get 3 gens done for the first down. The killer stands 0 chance against these teams now if they want to drag the game out.But why would they drag the game out? If you've done 3 gens and the killer is just getting a down either
A: there are very few resources left, meaning downs will happen a lot quicker
B: the survivor ran the killer so well that they still have tons of resources left, meaning the killer has lost and doesn't need 8 kicks
Even if we're talkin an elite SWF, trying to draw out the gens doesn't make sense. The killer's only real chance here is to create some kind of snowball, running back and forth between gens isn't going to do anything. Likewise the SWF has no reason to slow things down, if they drag the game out all they are doing is giving the killer a chance.
As for the AFC mechanic, it was pretty abusable at launch before they added the grace period on itIf by launch you mean PTB, there's a reason they are run, but also it was barely an issue even then. The timer was pretty generous and that was with killer's not even knowing the bounds / intentionally playing around with it.
Look, i don't say this to be insulting, and please don't take it that way. But it is clear that you aren't going against teams like this and so likely you aren't at an MMR where it matters to you.
Losing 3 gens in the first chase is expected at high level. And it doesn't take a lot of resources to do it. Holding shift + w, not using pallets, windows, nothing, means that a killer who doesn't have a ranged attack, will take around 60 seconds to down a survivor and hook them. Now factor in that every forced pallet break adds 20 seconds to that time, and then if they run to comp corner you probably add another 5 seconds or so. All it takes if for a survivor to shift + w, run to shack pallet, predrop it, and then run to comp corner, get downed, then enough time went by that the other 3 survivors finished 3 gens.
Now granted, this is playing against optimal teams that actually do gens. Aren't playing immersed claudette hiding in a corner, or working challenges, or doing totems for no reason etc.
I know that you are going to say "this is rare" etc. But not, its not, not at my MMR, its pretty much 25-50% of my games that are like this. This is why 3 genning is so important to the core game, because the game is designed in such a way that the killer is basically a wet noodle in the beginning of the game. That is of course unless they are playing nurse or blight. But i'm not talking about those killers, i'm talking about the other 95% of the killers in the game.
So do survivors who got themselves downed so many times near the same gen deserve to have it protected from any form of regression forever afterwards? What did they do to deserve such privilege in the first place? I'm not talking about the 3 gen situation where they might had no other choice but during the normal gameplay.
We just kicked a gen 8 times on last gen and it never kicked in also we could tap the gen.
Survivors already do this, (with 2.5% kicks and gen tapping) and they die long before I need to kick gens more than 8 times.
Survivors who are accidentally 3'genning are typically solo's who don't coordinate.
If so many games at high level are dependent on viciously defending a 3 gen for 30 minutes while not scoring any hooks or kills, that suggests that there are far greater problems at high MMR.
Maybe this will highlight those problems.
Survivors who got themselves downed right by a gen so many times are dead survivors.
Sabo SWF squad says hi.
So who's repairings the gens? Sabo squads go down easily and end up slugged. They follow you around with flashlights, they don't sit on gens.
Never had to deal with these guys in your life?
3 ''entertain'' killer, 1 does repair the gen. You go for that one, someone out of those 3 starts repairing gens.
Look, i don't say this to be insulting, and please don't take it that way. But it is clear that you aren't going against teams like this and so likely you aren't at an MMR where it matters to you.What are you talking about? I'm literally conceding to the idea that we're talking about an absolute, top tier team and explaining why this change (the limit of regression) will have absolutely no impact.
Please listen to what I'm saying here because your post doesn't sound like you read what I wrote.
Let's take every single thing you say as true. 3 gens get done, very few resources are used, etc.
So that's our scenario, now explain to me, how having only 8 regressions is going to make a difference. I don't want to be insulting either, but your post doesn't even sound like it is responding to what I typed.
Right now, status quo game, survivors should be able to finish those remaining gens before the killer can regress them more than 8 times. If they've got resources, they have coordination, the killer is not getting 9 regressions. Survivors incentive is to still go fast, every second they are not getting gens done is still time the killer can be getting hits or downs.
And even if this is a SWF that is extremely cautious and resets frequently and the killer refuses to leave, the survivors are going to win. Their ability to reset and go back to gens is superior to the killer's ability to regress them if the killer doesn't get downs. At the absolute extreme end of the chess merchant spectrum, all it has done is sped up what was going to happen.
The truth is the killer just got a buff to their chance to defend this scenario because until they hit 8 regressions their ability to defend this limited area has increased substantially (higher gen kick damage, no tap to stop regression).
We tend to see slugs at that point
all of them.
if the match is still going, and I manage to beat the team after infinite mistakes on my part. I deserved it, because I overcame those mistakes. do you disagree? is there a number of mistakes where I should just put my controller down because I do not deserve the win anymore?
I find this answer and question you gave in awful taste. It just latches onto what is a tangent, and for what? a jab a someone? and ignores the core of the issue.
the 3 gen solution exists to avoid killers extending the game for way too long.
the solution created a scenario where the survivors can do the same and it might be optimal to do it because of the relative safety of it.
why is one an issue but not the other? shouldn't both be an issue?
I assumed the correct answer would have been "from our testing and data this type of situation seems unlikely but we'll deal with this if it becomes a problem".
but apparently it's "git gud".
I do not mean anything malicious by asking, I am genuinely trying to get a better understanding of what the different expectations are. In the same way different people set a different bar for what they consider a win, something like this (how many mistakes you can make and still expect to come out on top) is also highly subjective.
The reason why I ask is because many people would consider losing a down to a save to be a very crucial mistake that can kill your momentum and heavily influence the rest of the match. These things do happen, you won't always expect someone to be hiding around the corner ready to drop the pallet or go for a flashlight save. But if someone is losing the majority of their downs to saves, you have to question how much of a role those mistakes played in their loss. This is the part that I would like a better understanding of. How many major mistakes should someone reasonably expect to make and still expect to recover from?
We try to make mechanics like these account for ordinary circumstances, but in order to do that, we need to establish what those ordinary circumstances are.
So a downed Survivor getting saved is a failure of the Killer that deserves them to lose the game, (because a save is always preventable - yeah), but if Survivors build a 3gen by going for the savest gens first, they deserve to have their game saved by a mechanic, that was allegedly designed to only activates against Killers who play for a 3gen from the start?
Nobody has said that.
If you've had 8 saves on you in one match, you deserve to lose. You also have the option to just not bring surge, or to down survivor with your killer power which doesn't activate surge. In the first place if the generator is at 0 progress it's not like surge activates. If it's at 20% progress you want surge to activate. If you've gotten 8 downs within range of one 3 gen and all survivors are still alive, you do kinda deserve to lose.
I'm a killer main myself and any realistic scenario where the situation you've described actually happened in game, either you're already in what's considered to be the killer win state or you're so outclassed by survivors you don't deserve to win, or you've purposefully created a 3 gen.
You can't reasonably expect to recover from multiple saves.
That is critical levels of error.
The new system protects Survivors who create a 3gen by themselfs just as much as Survivors who are forced into a 3gen by the Killer, that is the biggest mistake Survivors can make short of just running into the Killer, but thanks to the new system they no longer have to face the consequences.
But at the same time you dismiss the notion that the sytem puts a hard cap on all burst regression perks (and also all kick activated perks) because according to you getting to that point is a mistake by the Killer adn Killers who make mistakes deserve to lose.
Shielding one side from their mistakes while at the same time increasing the potential for mistakes for the other side isn't fair - specially not if the whole system was just supposed to apply to extreme cases.
A down doesn't mean a hook.
If you are routinely losing hooks because of saves, that's entirely on you.
Devil's advocate - do survivors who escape through hatch deserve the win? Do killers who got their teeth kicked in deserve to win thanks to noed? The game has too many variables for the game to declare who "deserves" to win. He's simply saying a downed survivor does not mean it's going to be a hook. Heck, if you down 3 people, you can usually only hook one of them by the time the other two get picked back up unless you really luck out with them going down at a hook.
A save is 99% of the time, preventable, yes.
Yes, a downed Survivor getting saved is usually the Killers fault.
Eight damage states is a LOT. That's TWENTY-FOUR DIFFERENT REGRESSION EVENTS SPREAD ACROSS THREE GENS.
Background player essentially guarantees a save if it is off cooldown unless the survivor goes down next to a wall (entirely in their control). On most maps, background player let's you literally cross half of the entire map in 5 seconds making it impossible for a killer to know where they possibly could be. Even if the killer did, the only option would be to slug. Every pallet is unsafe for pickup with the background player buff, as is any survivor going down not near a wall.
but who cares about the number of mistakes? how does any number matter here?
it's not relevant.
ultimately, wins who commits the least amount of mistakes (in theory). the number does not matter. and we are by default talking about a match that lasts a long time, so mistakes will happen.
answer these questions: the game reached a state where a 3 gen exists but had nothing to do with the killer planning for it or trying to get it.
the survivors decide to push the gens slowly because they know eventually the killer won't be able to regress the gens. so they know they will win the battle of attrition by playing safe.
is this not basically the same as a 3 gen killer? extending the game way beyond what was intented and only getting progress done when absolutely safe to do so?
why is one an issue that gets a mechanic in game to fight it, but the other not even acknowledged as an issue?
what's worse is that there's a very simple solution to this, it would work alongside the 3 gen solution and neither side would be able to extend the game in such a way... in fact, it would be a detriment. but I guess you rather count mistakes instead.
Funny how I haven't seen good Killers get hit by Background Player.
Heck, I'm rusty as ######### and I haven't gotten hit with it.
Besides, you'll never guess what that means. Oh yeah, it means that someone is tailing you and not doing gens. That's a W in my book.
....you realize that it's entirely within the Killers power to idk, chase someone, right?
You are using a hypothetical niche scenario in a deliberate attempt to de-rail the topic. You've responded to a Dev and have somehow managed to not answer any questions and only throw out accusations of favoritism.
I’m an ok killer (main Dredge and Singularity) and I’ve never been hit with BGP either. Lol.
And why do you think that is?
Just so our other friends here might get an idea
Well, for starters I have good game sense. I usually face objects when I’m picking up and survivors are abound. Because I can hear or see them following me for the save.
You'd think that, but 2 people slamming out gens and you never getting hooks is certainly not a win. Not sure who you are watching, but I see upper echelon players hit by background player all the time and it's almost always a visible frustrated look because they know it was entirely unavoidable.
Game sense can't predict someone is half a map away and will suddenly zip into your face the moment you pick up. As for walls, I already said that walls are the only counter, but survivors going down at a wall or not is entirely in their control. Higher mmr, all survivors have to do is if they feel they sre going down, go down at a pallet or run out in the open and get downed. 100% guaranteed to be saved if their teammates had BGP.
If you two are never seeing this situation, then yall are at an MMR level that's not relevant to what I'm talking about. Granted, the game is balanced around average players, so there is that, and average survivors don't utilize BGP or think to go down out in the open or at a pallet. If yall are talking about average players, then yes, you two absolutely have a point. I'm not talking about average players, however.
I don't want to be disrespectful but I disagree, with a good game sense you can guess whether there is someone waiting to flashlight save or not
No disrespect perceived - no worries.
I mean, that comes down to chances. If they could be 500 miles away in another game and still show up, it's not game sense to expect that they might show, it's just there is always a chance that they might show. Under normal circumstances, sure, you could game sense and look for any danger areas of nearby hiding survivors, but with BGP, they can literally be halfway across the map where it would take you quite awhile to get there....well out of viable killer walking distance, and STILL make it to the pickup for a save. Essentially, if you know someone has BGP, then every single pickup not near a wall is unsafe. That's not game sense. That's just facing a reality that the risk is ever present since you cannot possibly check every nook and cranny of half of an entire map while someone is on the ground. Every pickup is a roll of the die if the BGP is doing saves. The only game sense you could do is guestimating if their perk is on cooldown (like if they used it very recently), or if they are accounted for (like you know through a recent aura read or a recently completed gen that only they could be on).
I feel like a very simple solution would be to start tracking the 8 regression events (or whatever number of regression events you want it to be) once there are only three gens left in the game. In this way, killers who unintentionally end up with a three gen won't be as hard punished for it and killers that intentionally three gen from the get-go will still have consequences.
I'm gonna be honest, I'm winning 99/100 games.
Background Player is fun, good certainly, but it's not even remotely uncounterable lol.
I think the skill issue is rather the other way around. If players are having an issue with it, it's likely they're making mistakes against better players.
I appreciate the insult to my skill though, very classy.
As a huntress main this is a dream come true I can literally always practice orbitals now without being able to gen tap it makes them a sitting duck.
If one can't kill all survivors before kicking a gen 8 times then you lost way before the 3 gen occured. If you have all survivors alive with 2 gens left as killer your behind already, fail to kill someone before the last Gen is up and you've all but lost unless the survivor are throwing or trash.
I think my killer brethren are in fact overreacting. 8 regression events is a lot to be honest and im glad that they made it that. They could've made it turn on when 3 gens are left and made it 4 regression events. Some battles aren't worth the fight because the outcome of the victory could become worse.
not if they wanna pressure the gens.
in this scenario the survivors are leaving very early. so it's a cross map chase. which will lose you the game unless they don't finish the gen and open the gates for some reason...
how often do you take those?
I'm using a hypothetical. yes. that's what a thought experiment is. is the scenario impossible?
I say the scenario is extremely easy to replicate if the survivors chose to. do you disagree?
THIS IS THE TOPIC!!!
It seems like if survivors 3-gen themselves, it's no big deal anymore since they can just play it slow and defensive and burn through the killer's kicks.
This is exactly what many were worried about, as survivors 3-genning themselves and the killer capitalising on it was seen as fair. Now survivors can just do whatever gens they want and don't need to worry.
literally, in the op
so? because it's a dev I have to answer some specific way? that is just silly. I talk to a dev like I would anyone else.
not of favoritism, of ignoring the main issue and focusing on tangents.
but feel free to point out where I said they are saying one isn't an issue. because I'm just bringing focus to it instead of the tangent we were wasting time in.
and I answered the question asked. even if the question was utterly meaningless.
So basically there's no punishment for survivors 3 genning themselves out because they paid no attention when gen rushing any more?
They've nerfed all aspects of killer except endgame that'll be next.
Not an insult, just stating a fact that BGP isn't an issue at low/mid tier. At high tier, survivors can be unstoppable with it if the person going down avoids walls. It's okay to not be at high mmr at the game. That's literally what they balance the game around (not high mmr) (well, at least they try to, lol). Getting an onslaught of 4 man p100s, it gets exhausting where you just see superman flying around the map at 200% speed when you pick anyone up XD
Unlike other people, I don't presume to know what my MMR is. I don't try to brag about a meaningless number, but I do take offense to someone insulting my skill level and insinuating I'm not good enough to know what I'm talking about.
I haven't been hit by BGP. I don't see it as an issue except in mid-MMR where players think they're facing high-MMR deathsquads constantly.
A 4v1 at 1 gen is a loss in any patch and it should be massively against the Killer; just like a 2v1 at 3 gens is massively against the Survivors.
If it's a 3v1, take a chase. You can probably get two if you play the unhook correctly.
Quite the contrary, those of higher mmr mostly is there by choice. After having p100s constantly with survivors using every trick in the book, techs and all, the games are a complete stressful situation where playing nice means you lose. I prefer to be a nice killer, so I typically allow 1 person to escape (sometimes 2). They appreciate it, and my mmr drops a bit. Constant onslaught of p100 squads start to go down, and BGP becomes less and less prevalent. Eventually you settle into a nice spot and you can still play to win, but also be a bit nicer and not tunnel, leave hooks entirely, and so on. Now, they do have some protection that keeps you from dropping too low, but it'll at least drop you into a high mmr but out of the highest ranges.
When you have common p100s who use every trick in the book, have every angle memorized, you're occasionally seeing streamers like otz, and peopes profiles are showing 5000+ hours played, it isn't unreasonable to assume you're at a high MMR (not to mention until recently reaching max mmr was not that difficult). It's just...less fun there, and survivors are certainly the power role. Dropping down to a lower mmr is a thing. For all I know that's exactly what you did. I'm not stating your skill level, I'm just stating that in the hands of average survivors, BGP isn't a big deal and you certainly won't see them often outside of high mmr. It is an incredibly deadly tool that has very little counter for someone with a lot of experience. It's broke and a problem at high mmr, but BHVR doesn't want to balance the game around high mmr - presumably because it would destroy low mmr brackets where killers already have a big advantage and distrupt the average mmr bracket where it's mostly balanced.
I seriously doubt you’re a high MMR player. You just don’t give off that vibe. 🤷🏽♀️
I refuse to believe any competent killer is damaging a single gen 8 times or more in a game, even on the lack luster killer's all your doing is bleeding your own time to make a potential play at that point.
I mean, I don't care how you feel. I could show you the thousands of hours, the p100's I run, and the training sessions I have for low to mid tier players, but you're still going to say the same thing, not to mention a call out that I've dumped my mmr by letting the last person escape through the door. High MMR sucks. Allowing people to escape at least let's you kick back and play a nicer killer. I'm just stating how it is at that higher MMR. Survivors are machines at high mmr and BGP will pretty much guarantee saves assuming it is not on cooldown. Every pallet is unsafe, and if they know they have a flasher on their pocket, they are avoiding walls when they go down. You're welcome to watch the upper echelon streamers - you're just going to see the same thing. There's a reason the tournaments ban certain things from being brought - survivors have to have their hands tied behind their back to actually make the matches fair for the killers.
I dont know how such that much mistake and killers still think their skill is high MMR and deserved to win. While thinking survivors making 3 Gens themselves should be an auto lose.
Kicking the same Gen for 8 times proof you failed to find survivor, or refuse to chase. You only want to make 3 Gens kicking loops that survivors never have a chance to finish the last one until there is a hook/kill.
You'd think that, but 2 people slamming out gens and you never getting hooks is certainly not a win. Not sure who you are watching, but I see upper echelon players hit by background player all the time and it's almost always a visible frustrated look because they know it was entirely unavoidable.Let's assume everything you say is absolutely correct and survivors are able to save each other consistently.
How in the world is 8 regressions going to make a difference?
Where this thread is at with those opposed to the 3 gen mechanic is kind of silly. We're supposing that the survivors are élite tier running rescue after rescue against a helpless killer, but these same survivors foolishly 3 gen themselves and have no idea how to break it.
Are the survivors good or are they bad? What scenario are we talking about?
High tier killers are getting a buff. You're getting increased gen regression. Is it significant enough to stop the uber gen rush squads? Probably not, but its exactly the thing killers have been complaining about needing, more base kit regression.
Even 3 genning is more powerful, its just limited. Your ability to hold the 3 gen is now stronger, you do more damage on a kick and survivors can't just tap it to stop the regression, Yes, there is a hypothetical limit to the time now, but you have more of a chance to actually down the survivors / create a snowball than you previously did.
Killers are getting a pretty clear buff and are somehow trying to talk BHVR out of it.