Survivors, Win States And...Are We Looking At This All Wrong?
Ugh, so I had a long thread written up on this and our cat attempted to eat my keyboard, and I lost it.
So, short version:
I see quite a lot of survivors, or people who play both roles like myself talk about win rate and escape rate, as if they were the same thing. I know I often think of it the same way. I get camped, or tunneled hard and get killed - but 2 or 3 others escape.
I go 'ugh, well, I lost, tunneling is an auto win for killers rawrglblarglrawrgle' and get annoyed.
Thing is though - we won. Or at least fought it to a draw.
Because the survivor win state cannot be 'I escape'. That's...basically expecting a flawless victory every game.
I wonder if, maybe rather than trying to 'fix' tunneling or camping, we should instead look at ways to reward or I guess compensate the person who has to sacrifice themselves for their team - because, as things stand, the biggest problem to me about being hard camped or tunneled is that it's often an unavoidable depip and a waste of my time, for almost zero BP.
There's also a weird quirk to this game in that neither side has any sort of official 'win state'.
The closest we have is the 'Escaped' notification when you get out as survivor. For killers...ugh. Is it a 4k? A 3k?
Personally, I try to see my win state as pipping on either side. On killer, I also try to see my win state as giving the survivors an entertaining match.
Thoughts?
Comments
But it's not just hook instance that's getting tracked. It's also forcing mutual exclusivity between perks of multiple survivors.
What...? Reassurance isn't mutually exclusive; multiple people can use it on one Survivor.
That's not what the description says.
It's what the wiki writeup says, and given that the information in the wiki is official, if it's not, then the perk isn't working as it's supposed to.
What the description says is ambiguously written, but in light of said wiki text, I take it that the 'once per hook instance' limitation is meant to apply to the user, not the recipient.
That would be a pretty nasty mess-up on the wording. Need to check it sometime in a custom match.
If your intent is to get out of the game faster, then you are ragequitting.
Because MMR, essentially.
It stops killers from tanking the MMR on one killer, then queueing on it, then swapping to their best killer and roflstomping newbies.
Hook states, I'm guessing? Like...this isn't rocket surgery levels of coding. It's pretty much just an IF/THEN/ELSE condition.
pretty sure its once per hook state per servivor. meaning a potential 60 seconds per state.
but i haven't tested it and can't know for sure.
edit
not 60 per state. sorry. 30 per state. 60 overall.
i dont give up on hook. i try to survive. if i see i'm not going to be saved by my team i'll pogo that hook to see if i can come off. 4% is better than 0%. and sometimes i run slippery meat and salt statues on an up the ante build. call me a gambler, but there's a reason why my 3 highest characters are leon, bill, and ace. then i spend the remaining 40 seconds tapping skill checks for free blood points.
if you pogo - when you're clearly about to be saved - and dont tap the skill checks then i'd consider that a rage quit.
i wouldn't go so far as to say killed. flashlights - even instablind flashlights - are pretty useless with how most players use them. because the game is like 90% sound to begin with. if you blind me while i break a pallet or while i'm doing an animation - unless i actually get stunned i can still hear you and orient myself in your direction. sometimes even hitting survivors in the process.
lightborn is a pretty weak perk to bring when you could bring enduring or brutal strength. i'm not even sure if it protects the wraith, nurse, and other similar killers. it definitely doesn't benefit the hag. so 🤷🏻♂️ idk.
like... i'm not going to bring sloppy butcher just because i see 4 medkits in a lobby. i'm going to bring sloppy butcher because i think it is better than the alternatives
because like... even if i did it's not like i can determine rarity on most items or predict chests in the match.
If you're really sharp with flashlights, Residual Manifest is crippling to a lot of killers.
Just want to point out the wiki is not official. A lot of it is stuff that has been data mined, and every so often you’ll find completely inaccurate things on it
i punish killers for camping and tunneling by going try-hard on my loOp skillz.
...
How is that punishing anyone?
Loop me all you want - the most fun part of this game is chasing. It's when survivors spent 3/4 of the match sitting in a locker that it bothers me.
It's officially recognised and supported, though. Big things like intended perk effects are generally going to be accurate.
it's also one of the only ways to apply blindness to killers which is fascinating.
for me as the killer - it's scaring survivors. like when you can tell you ACTUALLY just made them jump.
I love Dredge for that! That teleport can keep people guessing on your whereabouts, and especially in Nightfall you can get some great scares in!
just sucks i can't hear their voice chat scared noises. i get why it's not included, but that was one of the amusing things about f13
or just undo the nerf to decisive. Some of y'all either werent around for ds, or forgot about it, and I think one good patch with old Decisive will stop tunneling for a while lol
Because DS was a perfect tunnelling counter before. /s
Depends on which nerf.
Nerf so that it doesn't activate in the EndGame? Nope.
Nerf so that it's always active regardless of what you work on? Nope.
Nerf so that it can be popped whenever? Nope.
But if you mean reverting it to 5 seconds, sure, I'm all for that one. To be perfectly honest, it's not going to dissuade me from tunneling very much.
disabling it on touching gens/totems/hooks/gates etc is a good change, leave the 5s stun (debatable if it should be 6, since it takes one second to be dropped depending on ping) and leave the 60 second timer. If you get hit with it late, that survivor has been useless for almost a minute and has done nothing productive
Otherwise, it does a pretty good job at countering tunneling for the most part
Revert it to 5 seconds, and as I said above, arguably make it 6 since it takes one second to drop you off the shoulder. I agree with ohtofu though with some endgame changes to anti tunneling perks. https://twitter.com/OhTofuOfficial/status/1622139014185684993?s=20&t=n51YyF3kuhNi7jX2sNdz7g
Scratched Mirror Myers and a Lery's offering is just cruel.
idk. i ran speed stalker meyers and just walked around at lvl 1 till the gates were powered. then i hit 3 and killed 4 people with mori's
Doesn't really matter - it's still a wiki, the large majority has still been sourced via datamining and not provided to from bhvr itself. There has been cases where the perk effects were still wrong, that is why I said that in the first place.
edit - also all I’m even tryin to say is don’t look at the wiki blindly as fact and only as reference. You should be doing that with, say, Wikipedia too.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Dead_by_Daylight_Wiki:Disclaimer
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Despite the vast majority of the information presented hereon being accurate and up-to-date, note that this wiki is open and can be freely edited by anyone, and that as such not every piece of content it entails will have been reviewed by Fandom Inc., Behaviour Interactive or an administrator. As a result, none of the aforementioned entities can guarantee that figures exhibited on this website are always valid and of sufficient quality, for all articles run the risk of being inadequately changed or vandalised. For all intents and purposes, instances of the occurrences mentioned above should be reported to a Wiki Guardian in case the user does not possess the means to deal with them themselves.
As I said, generally.
And it's pretty surprising to me if people don't check perk stacking and update it as soon as a patch drops.
Some Ideas to fix things:
1. Remove the Struggle phases. If a survivor gets hooked, they are able to spectate other survivors and ping/mark different locations (e.g. there is a gen, there is a pallet, killer is there, etc)
2. If a survivor is sacrificed, they can return as a ghost, and do the same. But without the fixed angle of spectating, they can now move freely. But this time, they dont see the killer or anything that has to do with his ability (like traps). They can still ping/mark or set diversions. And therefore assist their team in winning.
3. Survivors earn bloodpoints as a team. All actions get into one BP Pool and its either divided by 4 or everyone gets the same amount. (Depending on the numbers). If someone DCs, everyone (incl killer) gets extra bps.
For messing up? If you don't lose track of a survivor, you are guaranteed to get them... Eventually. It's not a mistake to be outplayed. You just had someone play better. Doesn't imply that the survivor screwed up if you found/downed them.
What information did you find that was completely inaccurate? I keep reading about this stuff happening on the wiki, but when asked, barely anyone can actually tell others what exactly it is that is inaccurate. If you think something is wrong on the wiki, contact the admins, like they literally tell you to do in the disclaimer that you had posted.
To everyone in here complaining about how Reassurance works or doesn't work based on the wiki description: I strongly suggest you guys don't just read the perk's description, but also the trivia section beneath it, when you're on its page. It literally explains exactly how the perk works and what its limitations are. Nothing about Reassurance is inaccurate on the wiki.
You're misreading/misunderstanding the wiki's description. It does not imply that it's mutually exclusive, that's your personal interpretation.
Edit: Actually, it seems you're misunderstanding both the wiki and the game's description of the perk, as they are effectively identical.
I don't think the devs want to go in the direction of the game giving you direct feedback about victory or loss.
There used to be a Disgraceful Defeat result when double depipping and, most recently, they changed Entity Displeased into Entity Hungers out of concern players felt negatively when reading the old message.
For the rest of your argument, while I do agree that giving survivors a reason to hold on in the form of a team result would be a nice improvement in theory, I'm not sure it would have much effect in practice.
In general, most people play games because they get to do something, not to stay on a timer waiting to be eliminated without any recourse.
So, whoever is currently giving time to teammates when they're getting facecamped is already acting on a team-based mindset and the change would be inconsequential for them. And those who just let go, they simply care about their own individual experience and telling them the whole team won or loss is unlikely to change their mind.
I mean it’s a judgment call whether you give up when being camped or not. Sometimes others will try to save you, sometimes they won’t. But they don’t have to, and it isn’t really another player’s responsibility to save you from bad game design. Like I said I can’t think of any other game where a single player is able to completely hijack the experience of another player and hold it hostage. But even if that were a common game mechanic it would be colossally inappropriate for the solution to rely on the selflessness of another random player.
I’m glad you said that because people act like that 5 seconds is some sort of hardcore tunneling deterrent. Like even before its recent nerf DS still wasn’t a great anti-tunneling perk. You could just slug a survivor and oop that’s more pressure, now someone has to save them (or not). Now there are only at most 3 survivors contributing anything to the match. I really think killer mains hoodwinked BHVR into believing DS is some sort of highly oppressive perk when it absolutely isn’t. I love how gullible the devs are, how nefarious killer mains are, and how pathetic survivor mains are. It’s been 7 years and survivors are still whining about tunneling/camping & the best thing BHVR has done is made those strategies more efficient.
I can't say anything for what the developers want, only an argument about what they should recognize. DbD was designed as a stealth game and they recognized that players were more into chases so they balanced around that - I'm saying they should recognize the same thing about teams. It's not a 1v1v1v1v1 game, it's a 4v1. Most of their decisions toward balance/perks are based around that element anyway, so it is strange to cling to elements of the former.
As for the win messages and players feeling bad about themselves, the game is based on serial killers and death. The killer can bring an item to unlock more graphic killings. Again, you might be absolutely correct on their reasoning, but to me it seems really strange.