When will we stop punishing killers for ending the game naturally?
That endgame mori mechanic should have been implemented the patch after it was announced. I guess since it was a killer issue though, it was skipped over. Now you see match after match (when the killer actually wins, anyway) survivors just lame it out by hiding and are almost always rewarded for that kind of play. I just want to know why the endgame of this game is so egregiously survivor sided.
They didn't complete all the gens, which was easy enough to do if they weren't walking around the edge of the map or being overly altruistic. What do they get for their failure? Absolutely free hatch escape. They didn't even have to do a gen, heal a teammate, or even see the killer. They just get out, because a random door spawned on the ground for them. They somehow can fail that, which they shouldn't because it almost always spawns near the survivor or where they're running to, their prompt trumps the killer's, they can pretty much vacuum in, and then they have key after the killer closes it and leaves, which they can randomly find in a chest.
Why did the killer leave, you say? Because after closing the hatch, now the exits power up. No gens or anything had to be done for that. It's just a freebie. Sometimes the killer's unlucky enough to barely escape the cusp of defeat, as in all the gens were done but 1 survivor remains, only for them to now have to guard hatch AND both exits! Might as well put the controller down at that point. Even after other survivors have escaped through a gate and you think you have the last survivor cornered, hatch still spawns for them for no reason at all, again giving them 3 escape options.
This is all the nonsense the killer has to deal with by trying to end the game as they're supposed to. That's why tons of killers slug for the 4k, slug the 3rd to get the 4th, because they don't want to give survivors multiple free chances to escape for no reason. They could even slug all 4 survivors from the get go, hopefully with nobody stopping it with Unbreakable, and let them bleed out just so maybe none of this even gets started. But even then, who knows? Maybe the hatch spawns on the last person before they bleed out so they can escape for free. Yes, even as a crawling, dying body you get suctioned out through hatch. And if the killer find hatch first and closes it, you get Adrenaline if you have it, so now you get a chance at a key or the gates again.
I know this is about survivors needing a reason to keep playing, because their feelings are priority #1, but this could have been handled way better with literally any other mechanic that doesn't involve free instantaneous escapes. Do the endgame chase idea, or something at least halfway engaging like that where the killer and survivor still have to interact with each other.
My preference though is that maybe, and this is gonna sound crazy, survivors shouldn't escape at that point. The endgame mechanic(s) could be killer sided for a change. You didn't complete a gen in X time? You get your aura revealed permanently until you are dead. No hatch or nothing. Maybe you could give survivors double BP from that point on, since survivors need some kind of incentive to not press the Leave Match button when things get tough.
This is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. It's one of those things that you just don't let go of because it never sat right with you, ever since you started playing the game. The very slow attack recovery animation for example, which was recently made less burdensome. What I think of when I see hatch is killers getting tbagged after they played their hearts out, and now they get to watch that toxic survivor get away with it all, because the game simply gave them a free out. Even without the toxic survivor scenarios, it's frustrating. You got the 4k, or that 1 extra kill, by all rights. But the game told you "No." You lose the dopamine, you lose the points, you lose the good performance, and you lose brain cells when people tell you "It doesn't mean anything."
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I'm glad so many people here are certified psychologists, and suddenly question my mental health when I say something they disagree with.
How is that even remotely the same? You can end the game 6 ways to Sunday as survivor, but the killer is at the game's and the survivors' mercy.
It's not what I prefer, but it's something. Surprising that so many people here think that hatch is the crown jewel of ideas for how to end the game.
Well that's very telling for how fragile survivors' egos and willpower are, if they'd give up so easily just from that. Maybe it's just me, but I keep trying to win from beginning to end, even when it's pointless, and I wouldn't expect pity points when I refused to do so.
You're the first neutral reply on this thread. Everyone else is just regurgitating insults and skill questioning.
Again with this: "It was more powerful before, therefore it's fine." If only the same logic was applied to killer stuff.
Im not familiar with the Saying "6 ways to sunday", but i guess you mean "many".
I was just pointing out that if you only agree to one of those stupid statements you're either favoring killer or survivor like a "biased x main". Even if youre neither.
It's common sense to me, but I know that others won't see it that way. It is my opinion, not exactly fact, although I've used facts to justify what I've said. I was feeling somewhat confident in making an actual post after a long time, but seeing how little constructive criticism I'm getting, I think I'll stop putting my ideas out there, because it always results in this.
I know, right? Everybody thinks hatch is perfect somehow.
So you're saying it's killer-sided?
Yeah, because if you accidentally get 3k instead of 4k it would mean the end of the world, you can by no means let that happen, can you?
I am ok with not escaping all the time. As long as Doors get opened by survivors every game. Otherwise I don't even consider it a match since there was no chance of winning as survivor.
What exactly is the problem with killers wanting to get a 4k? They only have the one objective, but people keep acting like a killer trying to earn a 4k is criminal. Why the stigma?
Okay, look, dude, it's a mistake to expect nothing but constructive criticism from a forum.
But you don't exactly create your posts on the fulcrum of neutrality and rejection of biases. You're pretty clear about which team you're rooting for, and you're frankly.. look, dude, I don't know how to politely put this, whiny about it. That's honestly the worst part. Even if I do agree with you, and I can agree with some things, the way you express it I feel like I have to disagree out of pithy annoyance. And you can't deny that it's hard to give constructive feedback when your alignment is aggressive killer and every other sentence has a jab sneaked in.
Not every accurate roast is a "copypasta". Teenagers really do talk in memes all the time.
Umm end game used to be 3x's worse bc if survivors did a certain amount of gens ie 4 survivors completed 3 or 4 gens the hatch would automatically spawn.
This was terrible because if you had really strong pressure and or the survivors 3 gen'd themselves then they could all just escape through the hatch when it spawned with a key!
"This" was the absolute worst and it got changed for the better! I think most people that complain about current dbd didnt play the game from 2018-2021! The game is the best ie the most balanced its ever been minus Nurse!
I feel like you are really contradicting yourself.
The game is survivor sided, because the killer cant win, but if he wins, he wins too hard, and they get the hatch.
This makes me ask: do you derank a lot to get easy survivor matches where you "kill too hard"?
Either your mmr is high, and you mostly get sweaty swf, that give you a hard time, or you are low mmr, where you can "kill too hard".
Otherwise, mmr is not working, and there should be a hatch in the matches where you "kill too hard", because you didnt earn them, but they were handed to you by bad matchmaking.
Or its just the difference between solo survivor and swf, and the last patch shifted the balance way more to the killer side, where he has easier time to handle swf and just stomps solo survivors. Then again, for swf the hatch makes next to no difference, but for solo survivors, there should be an escape, because there is no team you won against.
You're talking about survivors and killers as if they are two different groups of humans. Look at human nature. Games aren't fun if you don't have some chance to win. On the killer side, even if you have an bad early game, you can still pull out some portion of a victory. The gens narrow down to 3 and then you only have 2 doors to defend. The survivors can play a near perfect game for 95% of it and then still lose someone at the end (or if you don't want to look at it as a team, you can play a near perfect game and get caught right at the end). On the other hand, if the early game goes well for the killer, the survivors chances drop astronomically.
Imagine if there was a rule that if survivors got two gens done before a killer got a hook, new gens would spawn to reward them for how well they are winning. Killers would quit because the chance of a win would be impossible. People can be a good sport and play out the end of a losing game from time to time, but if that is a frequent occurrence they are going to stop entirely.
Also, even if a hatch was considered a win (which I think is absurd), the survivors didn't win. You killed three of them. To act like it is survivor sided ignored the fact that it can only apply to 25% of the people on that side.
2 differences.
1: Each survivors if measured on whether they escape or not. If they haven't escaped they've accomplished 0% of their objective. On the other hand the difference for a killer is between 75% and a 100% (or being we're talking about a hatch here, a 3 point win or a 4 point win).
2: If the end game of the survivors to accomplish the last 25% of their goal felt like it took as long as the rest of the game and just involved staring at the screen not doing anything, yeah, I'd complain about it too.
You asked for the aura of the last survivor to be constantly revealed to you and the hatch removed and an instant Mori. How is that not handing them to the Killer on a silver platter? Bro, come on. To add: no one said the Killer didn’t work to get 3 kills. But that last survivor tried hard as well. If it’s Solo Q, they probably were matched with only one other competent team mate and 2 new players. Then you have to deal with disconnects, people killing themselves on first hook, face camping, hard tunneling- sometimes you have 3 gens left and as a decent player you had no shot to even earn any blood points. …….. but you want that survivors aura revealed to you constantly at end game and give them no chance. Let me tell you, the possibility of escape is the only reason any Solo Q logs in. Remove it and why would anyone play unless they’re SWF?
Would you be fine to be told to do that every trial else you'd be a sweaty tryhard for trying to escape nonetheless?
1. You're mixing up objectives and goals. Do 5 gens (5/7), open a gate (6/7), exit (7/7) to escape (goal).
That's not what I meant. If you're a survivor and say two people are dead and there are still four gens up there is no way you are 'winning' that game. You're dead. There's no way you repair four gens between two people before the killer kills you both. No way to escape through the doors. So what's the point in continuing to play other than maybe a few extra points? Survivors would just go to the hook so they can get into the next match.
But because the hatch is a thing, the survivors aren't immediately resigned to knowing they're gonna die. One of them could get the hatch! So one person takes the fall for the other dude on the chance that that dude may escape and that's there's a silver lining to the horrible match they just had. It makes it so the 4k outcome of the match isn't immediately decided when the killer is dominating but in a way that doesn't make killers feel cheated. I certainly don't. If the only escape you had was through the hatch you won by a landslide as killer. And even still it's not a guaranteed escape. As killer you are more likely to find the hatch as you can traverse the map quicker and the survivor has to be on the lookout for you while searching for it themselves. It's really not worth fussing over.
I don't understand why you'd want to keep playing to 'win' in a match you've 100% lost. That just seems like you're setting yourself up for failure. You've said yourself it's 'pointless'. What's the point? Why should survivors continue to play in matches where the outcome of no one escaping is guaranteed?
IMO there’s no problem with Killers wanting a 4K. But if they want it so bad that they expect a last survivor to be stripped of all chance, have their aura constantly shown, hatch removed etc and essentially handed to the Killer by BHVR, that’s when people take issue. As a Solo survivor I’m supposed to be content with rarely escaping. It’s quite common to see Killers 4K especially after the patch. I think they can deal with the odd hatch escape and a 3k
You're spot on, couldn't have phrased it better myself. Something about his responses puts me off.
You're trying to draw a distinction based on two words that can be used in the same way.
The fact is that if all survivors stopped at the 5th gen, none of them would be considered to have won. If a killer just stopped at the 3rd kill they won 3 against the survivors.
But we're not talking about just stopping, we're talking about how the game plays out (my second point). From 5 gens to escape you have a relatively quick game where the killer has a decent shot at getting one survivor (more if they are altruistic). At two survivors the killer trying to slug it out is a slow, boring game where the survivors are already extremely mismatched.
Your initial post was trying to show that this was just a bias thing, but you are ignoring all of the reasons why these are two very different situations.
Except it's not powerful anymore, all it can do is give a 1 man escape. Are you seriously crying over 1 person escaping?
So slug for 4K if you want it so badly. Killer has better chance finding hatch first so you still have good chance to get it done. 3K is win like 3 man escape is win for survivors yeah your comparision is bad. 4K is equal of 4 escapes. 3K is equal of 3 escapes and so on.
I am not belittling anyone, I am just stating facts, buddy. I don't feel the need to get a 4k every single time, when I play killer, nor do I feel entitled to escape every single time I play a match as survivor. Now, should that never happen? No, of course not. Should it be the top priority of your matches, leading you to cry if it doesn't happen every single time? Neither. Just like "pipping" means you won, so do 3 kills. If you feel like that is "by the skin of your teeth", maybe you need to change your mentality. After all, you are just someone who is sitting on a chair, it's not even close to something that requires a physical effort.
Tell me why hatch should still open after the exits are already powered, or how that's killer sided.
Killers who slug for the 4k, when they have no idea where the last survivor is, are scummy.
But also, hatch is a trash mechanic.
BHVR either needs to put a prerequisite on survivors being able to escape through hatch (i.e. Entity blocks the hatch if the survivor doesn't have over 20k bloodpoints), or do away with the mechanic all-together and put something better in its place.
I don't know how they expect to balance the game when they've implemented things like hatch and archive challenges that tell survivors they can 'win' without helping their team.
Perhaps there's a reason for this result?
Ok, can you tell me under what circumstances a key should open a hatch?
I never claimed its killer sided, but actually, the killer has a way easier time finding it than a survivor. When i play killer, i usually dont slug for a 4k, but get it anyway most of the time, because you find the hatch so much faster (or the survivor, if he is not carefull).
Closed-mindedness. On this issue, I can understand people screaming "killer biased", because it's affecting situations in which the killer has most likely got 3 kills already. But my argument is: that isn't a good enough excuse to ignore the issue entirely.
On other issues though, like Pop getting nerfed multiple times, Ruin getting nerfed multiple times, Wraith nerf, Deathslinger nerf, Pinhead nerf (why?), people just don't give you anything.
"It's OP."
"Why?"
"Killer main, get good."
That kind of stuff. And people have agreed with what I've said before, sometimes in droves, but they show their support through upvotes rather than comments, which kind of makes me look like an outsider who is the only one arguing about a certain issue. If the forums are full of killer mains, I'm the sugar plum fairy.
Ah yes, it's apparently an issue with everyone and everything else?
Not surprised in the least.
If you want this game to die quicker remove the hatch and see how fast killer queues are. There would be no point in survivors continuing to play except for swfs wanting to challenge themselves. If even one survivor died or dc'd with 4 or more gens up the game would be over for everyone unless the killer is terrible. The survivors that would continue to play would be all swf as solo queue would not be worth the chance of having bad teams. If a game doesn't end when survivor powers all gens, it also shouldn't end when killer takes out three randos. Find the survivor or they escape. Those are the terms of DBD. End of story.
This entire post is just another killer complaining that they don't get a 4k every single game. The game is extremely killer sided right now with the exception being SWF and now you want to remove the hatch? Jesus when will the killers of the game be done complaining about not getting 4k every match. In fact according to MMR if you got a 3k you won 3 out of 4 times that match so is that not enough? I guess when all you run into is SWF it will be the killer mains fault for killing soloq with all the whining.
Can't argue with that.
So, a killers goal in this discussion is to "kill all survivors" cause it's in the name yet a survivors goal is to just "do gens, power gates" and not just survive like the name suggests and what a survivors MMR is calculated on? This is to me some real double standards suggestion wise
You can say a game shouldn't have these but stuff like noed are on the killers side already to help keep a match interesting because asymmetrical really can't work without mechanics as such without just constant one sided snowballs that quickly kill enjoyment
The game is 4v1 a full win for killer is a 4k and a full win for survivors is 4escapes. You have the slugging option if you're really gunning for it but please never compare gens to kills. gens are like hooks and both don't matter in low numbers while kills/escapes are the actual balance metric
Tldr: Hatch is fine as is. Stuff like it keeps a match exciting and not one sided snowballs only one side has fun with
I genuinely believe end game should be a survivor sided mechanic. It just makes sense to throw them a bone after 3 of them are massacred. That being said, I do agree that the mori overhaul was bottom priority because it is a change for killer players. People pretend they do not have a survivor bias for whatever reason, but yeah... pretty obvious if you pay attention to their changes. You know, like how reassurance was not changed to prevent end game trolling of a killer, but it was changed to prevent trolling survivors. But survivor mains would no kap be like, "sEe ThEy BuFf TeH cAmP!" Ha ha ha... You just can't make it up.
As far as I can tell you read his message wrong. That's what he's saying. The forcing 3v1 WOULD result in a 100% or near 100% chance at a 4k IF the hatch existing as a mechanic didn't prevent it (sometimes). You are correct, there is no one strat that does that, because of the hatch, AND that's a good thing.
Some people are rebutting with you that the hatch is survivor sided. I won't even take the argument there. I'll just say sure, Yeah it is, and it should be. You won already. You don't need a 4k, the survivor does actually have to EARN the hatch or gate escape. But a game that would allow you to steam roll all the time wouldn't be a balanced one.
You can't make it up. The same survivors who just assumed that once Reassurance was out, every 3-man SWF was gonna automatically use it to hold games hostage, are now complaining about the nerf. They asked for it. And it's not even a bad perk either; it's still more usable than Kinship. And the wording of it all: it was changed because "a survivor could be prevented from being sacrificed against their will." They wanted to make sure that the people who wanted to rage quit could do so and feel happy, even at the cost of screwing over their remaining teammates. It's always about survivors' feelings.
I'm not questioning your mental health. I'm saying that caring that much about a 4k is not healthy. But go on with your victim card.
The "people agree with me in droves and upvotes" is one of the saddest I've seen recently. That's not validation of any kind. This "trusted" tag is a joke. It has to be this forum's equivalent to Yelp's "elite". You have to convince someone you think your opinion is important.
You assuming that the survivors lost. Sometimes the hatch is the only option, bad at that anyway, bc the gate spawn RNG is horrendous most of the time... Either spawns on the same wall or opposite to each other.
Why killers should be rewarded but survivors couldn't? I get that most of the time the hatch escape is survivor who you, the killer, hasn't seen, but what happenes to the survivor who runs the killer the whole game, or most of it anyway, and their only means of escaping is hatch? Why they should be punished?
Not to mention that hatch got gutted to the ground while devs promised "more ways to escape will be added to the game" so hatch is not a problem. Most of the time the killer finds it first, not to mention that if both parts get there at same time in 99% of the cases killer closes it in survivor's face bc it gets overwritten.
You might have missed it, but I've been questioning that, not boasting about it. If people like what I say, as is indicated by the upvotes, then why won't they say anything? Why is it only those who disagree with me who feel the need to comment? I don't understand it.
Why do you care so much about this? A 3k+hatch or a 4k are literally the same thing, unless you're one of those who want the increase the magical invisible number (MMR) that no one cares about.
Hatch and exit gates exists so when the game is lost survivors at least try to do something when the game is lost. When the game is lost as killer you can always squeeze out at least a 1k with camping or tunneling, but when the game is lost as survivor the best thing you can hope is to escape through the hatch at the end.
If I'm going to die anyway when the game is lost I might as well AFK instead of wasting my time.
Also at least try to share your opinions with actual facts. The hatch location is decided randomly while the map is loading, it has nothing to do with the killer and survivor positioning.
This is why I dread talking about this topic, because people refuse to give the killer the benefit of the doubt. Every single time, y'all say "The hatch is for the survivor who played amazing and had trash teammates." #1 That's balancing the game off survivors playing bad. #2 You must realize that hatch also largely rewards survivors who wait it out rather than assisting the team to pull off a legit escape, and also emboldens the toxic survivors because hatch will always be there to bail them out. But I never hear y'all say "The killer deserved that hatch close because he played well." On the contrary, the killer is instantly suspected of having "steamrolled" the survivors from the start, or was toxic, or didn't go easy on the survivors simply because some were potatoes.
I can't believe you literally said hatch got nerfed, therefore it can't possibly be problematic anymore. The same would never be said of something on the killer side. This is where we are.
Yeah, I remember playing as survivor (this was before the hatch nerf btw) and she was just hiding from the killer all the time. Killer was camping whole match so we had two survivors doing gens instead of 3. After killer closed hatch she just escaped because of key. I don't understand why hatch exists. If survivors lose they lose as team, if hatch is here not only killer lose 1k but also survivors can lose 1 teammate, because they can just hide all the time. The game should automatically end when you kill third survivors, the last one should be automatically sacrifised or moried.
Edit: I'm not saying that this should count when all gens are done or that this is great idea. It's only to solve problem with survivors waiting for hatch refusing to play the game.
When everyone's always questioning your MMR and skill level, yes gaining MMR is important. If I faced nothing but baby survivors, my opinions would cease to be valid, because I wouldn't be experiencing the level that I'm talking about.
So all I have to do to get an extra kill is SIMPLY camp or tunnel? Why didn't I think of that before?
I know the spawn logic of hatch quite well. It just seems like it's always spawning near the survivors for me, and allows them to jump through anyway when they screwed up and waited too long before I got close enough to close it.
Disagree on that last statement, but everything else makes sense.