The current meta of tunneling and camping the first survivor out is unhealthy for the game.
I know, I know, another camping/tunneling post.
This problem though, is apparent in at least half my games, where the first person to get hooked will be tunneled and or camped out of the game as quickly as possible to turn it into a 3v1.
This just perpetuates a cycle of survivors complaining about these problems, running meta perks to counter them, then playing killers who don’t do either of these things and punishing them for playing in a more fair manor, turning them into killers who camp and tunnel these survivors out.
This is a very unhealthy cycle for this game to be in, as it promotes “toxic” behavior and a stale meta. Survivors will run the same 4 perks every game, and killers will get a person out as soon as possible to counter this.
I understand that this has been a problem for a long, long time, but when it comes to game design, fun should be the first priority. The current state of the game does not promote “fun” interplay between the survivor and killer and 90% of the time, one side of the lobby will be left with a sour taste in their mouth.
Apologies for the rant, but just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Comments
That´s not the perks problem. Plague shuts down any heal perk, Doctor & Legion can negate any type of stealth and some killers can just find the survivor faster after a DS.
If a killer's power enables them to instantly take someone out of the match for an unfair advantage, it causes a major balancing problem. So you have 2 extremely powerful killers that have even more advantage.
I played 5 survivor games the other night and in every single game, the killer face camped. Why did they do this? Because in every game except one, the killer lost 2 to 3 gens before getting a down let alone a hook. So they took their first hook and just face camped because they have already lost the game with 2 gens done before a down. And in every case but one, they were lower tier killers. The one guy who wasn't losing all his gens in record time was a Blight on a favorable map. And he still lost.
Might be that face camping is a symptom of another issue, rather than the problem itself.
Ah yes my bad for being proxy camped and tunneled off the hook, next time I'll loop for 5 gens + opening gate time
Yeah, might be that if you lose 3 gens in a single chase and proceed to facecamp then it's cause you have no clue how to properly play killer, and by not engaging in other chases at all then you don't learn anything either
Interesting.
So if the survivor is downed quickly after being unhooked while killer is in range. That's the killers fault.
If 3 gens pop during a chase, that's also the killers fault.
I guess that's one way to see things.
As a former killer main who just doesn't play the game a lot anymore, I can confidently say that Circle of Healing has killed the game. Every game has COH, and as a killer, It's honestly depressing seeing an entire team of injured survivors become healthy in less than 30 seconds because I tried to spread pressure and play in a manner which is more fun for both sides.
So I tunnelled, camped and played with nastier perks like NOED that make me win more as killer. And yeah, I did win a lot more, almost getting a 3-4k every game by tunnelling a survivor out of the game ASAP, or camping a second hook really well, but it's so boring for both sides... I'm literally just sat there staring at a survivor, or watch a survivor just give up because I'm about to hook them for the third time in less than 2 minutes and send them back into a 10 minute queue.
But if you don't do this, you get like 4-5 chases before the game is over, and then the survivors stand at the exit gates for the entire duration of EGC, just wanting to slap their cheeks on the ground to tell you how trash you are at the game, even though you played nice.
This game has just become misery for both sides tbh. Play survivor, watch someone get tunelled/camped almost every game, never interact with the killer in a chase, hold M1 on generators. Or play killer, watch how helpless you are to win the game without tunnelling/camping and get burned out very quickly.
Choosing to not engage in long chases is a conscious decision that comes after the killer feels that he has wasted his time, usually (like you said) multiple gens finishing before you can end a chase. This could be for any number of reasons, maybe you are an M1 killer on the game against good survivors. Maybe 3 people brought brand new part. Maybe you're just a bad killer, or the person you are chasing is an actual god. At a certain point, the killer decides to cut his losses and camp to try and secure at least one kill. Choosing to cut your losses in a bad situation is not "having no clue how to play killer" lmao it's a part of the game
Personally, I choose to stop engaging in chases if I am in a 3 or 4 gen (1 or 2 left) situation, have not scored a kill yet, and I can tell the survivors are good players trying to distract me away from a certain area while someone sneaks around, waiting for me to commit to a chase.
Being spotted is on the survivors in most cases. If looping isn't safe then apply stealth.
I more or less agree with everything you said but I'm not that sure about the gen speeds. Gen speeds are nuts rn but holding M1 is insanely boring, thus making survivors hold it for longer isn't the best solution imo. I believe that other solutions should be implemented about that, like the early game collapse that's been spoken about many times, that survivors must complete before they are able to do gens, or maybe some sort of secondary objective aside from gens (like bones, but mandatory).
Sounds like a major failure in the MMR system then.
BT and DS haven't left my builds for this very reason ESPECIALLY DS.
The amount of times the killer has selected me to be killed off first is hilarious and they complain when my team + DS try to extend my lifespan. Not to mention SWF is simply a good "counter" or remedy to the tunneling issue. Thus, encouraging people to play SWF which is stronger (in most cases) than killers.
I specifically said it shouldn't be done by increasing the time and proceeded with an (imperfect) example.
I play survivor too and I don't get how so many players enjoy doing several minutes of QTE and leaving without interacting with the killer. It feels so lame and boring to me.
Not really. Spreading and doing gens in parallel is a trump card in a lot of maps. Skills required : basic movement, map knowledge, your usual crutch perks.
Step 1: find a gen alone, moving stealthy
Step 2: at the start of the game, wait for the killer to pass next to your gen and leave before starting
Step 3: if you are the one being found, go away from your 3 other friends (easy on comm)
By the time the killer has found one of the team, it's not unusual to have 2 or 3 gens at 50%.
By the time the chase ends, you can expect to have 2 or 3 gens popping. If they pop in serie you can be sure another one will be well on the way by the time the killer finds another survivor.
There is no real counter against that and this is even more effective on big maps.
Step 4: expect the first hook to be camped. You can simply leave with one hook or find the NOED and try a 3 man save.
as far as i know, people are doing this for 2 main reasons:
1 it's extremely effective (it's MUCH easier managing 3 survivors instead of 4 and that's a fact)
2 people are tired to being mocked every single game from toxic survivors (i'll tell you an anedocte: i was a chill killer, but after 4 years of matches full of toxic brats who didn't appreciate my fairplay and quite the contrary keep mocking me, well, my patience runs out... a valid example was a premade that i faced 3 week ago twice, the 1st match i played "fair" doing 9 hooks, endgame they trashtalked me for being bad at the game and kept insulting me and my family... 2nd matches that i did again aganist those little cough cough (inserit bad word) i tunneled on purpose and guess what? 4/4 and the end chat as always filled with insults... what changed? nothing except for a little crucial detail: i kill them all without thinking to their fun and i was satisfied for punishing those guys)
i know that being tunneled and/or camped isn't fun (even i who eventually did those things i found them annoying and boring), but, as i like to say, you reap what you sow (you should also thanks mainly the devs for promoting toxicity btw... i did A LOT of reports in those years regarding people who cheats, was racist or wish dead upon me and my family and guess what? all those people were left UNPUNISHED and are still playing like nothing happened)
"what is the problem" is worthless discussion when it won't be fixed tbh.
And then killers will be found way how to abuse another mechanic... Bruhhhh. I think is no win combination right now, cuz game has no balance at all. With old rank sistem was possible to play, rn is garbage. And getting worse with every update PLUS it's really making huge amount off toxic people in community... It's way to many problems in this game but Devs only closing they Eyes and happy to take money for another bunch off useless skins...
"Camping" and "tunneling" are just words, you could also call them "hugging" or "filtering" or whatever and hope everyone adapts those words, they describe a specific tactic and scenarios. It's not just survivors who call those things like that, people like Otz who has a healthy view on the game (but plays a lot more killer) also calls it like that.
What you mean is people judging the killer unfairly because he does it. I could also say, if i want to frame the whole thing from a "survivor main POV", that "patroulling an advantageous area" is a whitewashed paraphrase for simply just camping. If you're proxy camping and come immediately back to hook to go after the just unhooked survivor, this is by most people's definition strictly TUNNELING. It is what it is. No one can stop you doing it, but it IS tunneling. Yes you are entitled to camping and tunneling, but this doesn't change the fact that it exists.
No dude, this is absolutely NOT ironic. Have you ever played survivor and got actually hard-tunneled? There is no chase in most cases. 12 seconds BT are gone fast (if you even got it) and if you don't bring those ominous second chance perks like DS you're just dead. There is no game, there is no fun. Of course it depends on the killer and other variables like the map and where you got hooked, but you get the idea, a good killer who knows what he's doing will just end you fast in those situations, trust me i scrimmed against comp killers a lot lately. I played mostly killer the last 3 weeks but i can understand everyone who says this isn't fun to play against and this isn't why they're playing this game. Survivors usually like to win, as killers do. It's the same when killer mains say something like "i play for the chases, it's the fun part" but then 75% of killers i saw lately camp and tunnel ("playing efficient") because it is the easiest way to win. Like i already said, i don't blame them and i do it myself, but the game would be in a much healthier spot if this wouldn't exist and killers could still win with actual skillful plays instead of resorting to these boring playstyles because chasing everyone will give you 8 hooks but 0 kills.
That's really not what i said but feel free to believe so if that suits your bias
I went back to check, and you literally did. Rofl.
Like i already said, i don't blame them and i do it myself, but the game would be in a much healthier spot if this wouldn't exist and killers could still win with actual skillful plays instead of resorting to these boring playstyles because chasing everyone will give you 8 hooks but 0 kills.
Well, the game is supposed to be balanced around 2k/2e, in your scenario 10hooks and 2 kills.
That is already not doable consistently without having to play this game for hundreds of hours on a single killer.
And just judging from the efficiency of the devs in the past to change and balance things on both sides simultaneously, if they were to deny/delete/whatever the killers options to play with most efficiency aka camping/tunneling one survivor out asap, it would take them months to years to give killer something in return so that they at least have a chance. And most worrying, it would probably both come in form of more bandaid perks, the only solution the devs know without making stuff completely useless, see Mori's/keys.
Correct me if I'm wrong then because I still don't see how I said the same thing: in one situation you're on the hook, where you have no choice on whether you're going to get unhooked, if you will get borrowed time with it, and whether the killer decides to stick around to hit you specifically as soon as you get unhooked. Nothing in that situation is in the unhooked survivor's control. Demondaddy said second chance perks aren't necessary, yet borrowed time and decisive strike in that situation would prevent something that has nothing to do with personal mistakes and are "second chance" perks.
On the other situation, it's the beginning of the game and you engage on your first chase, both players have all the options to outplay the opponent, with most killers inherently being stronger in the 1v1 scenario, and holding the option to drop chase and spread pressure to other survivors working on gens. That's in the hand of both players, with a lot of situational awareness involved (also known as: skill).
So again, how are the two situations the same?
well, even if you're very experienced with some killers it's not doable because the MMR will match you with survivor squads with similar experience and skill plus meta perks (4x DH is not uncommon on my 2 mains) and sometimes OP items.
I agree with the rest, in practice i don't think the changes will ever happen because they would be way too big and extensive. You would have to change a massive amount of perks in advance. We will probably just get another "here, if you do this to every survivor you get a reward!"-perk for killers which will not get used much after the first 2 weeks. I mean, No Way Out isn't a bad perk but it only makes sense with NOED to me and you're better off with the new regression perks like Deadlock (which btw greatly synergizes with camping)
When killers got 3 or 4 hooks by the time the gates are powered, survivors told them to "jUsT aPpLy PrEsSuRe".
Turns out, tunneling someout out early applies a ton of pressure.
You´re welcome.
You just don't get it.
By "apply pressure" I mean patrol the same generators in as close to a repeated, predictable pattern as possible, preferably while ringing this bell so everyone knows when you're coming. Not do something which may cause my team to feel pressured or like we may lose. /s
But that was banned under the "killers shouldn´t camp!" act in the survivors rulebook.
Generally speaking, that wasn't directed directly toward you... You could be one of the kindest survivors out there, but if you'll face a killer that had enough of the general behavior of the people who play dbd (there's a reason why this game is well know for having a toxic playerbase), you can't expect to be treated nicely, especially if we consider the fact that a killer can't afford the time to see who's toxic and who isn't...
My problem is more with the health and enjoyment of the game for both sides, not survivors or killers “winning” or killers following the “survivor rule book”.
I’m aware that tunneling is a great way to apply pressure early on, and makes the game way easier for killer. This post isn’t about that, I’m simply saying it is not healthy and not enjoyable so long term game health wise, is not a good look when the player base has already been dropping for 5 months straight. Maybe to you, but to me and what I assume the majority of the player base; camping and tunneling is a snooze fest for both sides that just increases the already present toxicity in this game.
Game design is the number one issue here, I’m not blaming the players for this situation.
Why not? They've got 16 perks between them. Meanwhile killers are forced to run perks that don't even counter survivor's perks adequately.
This is assuming the survivors are in a group and have their 16 perks known to each other. Solo Q survivors will run what perks they want because they don’t know what their teammates are running.
And yes, you’re correct in saying that killers don’t have exact counters to survivors perks, but they have perks that counter survivors playstyles. There are plenty of gen stalling, altruistic countering, anti-stealth, and anti-looping perks that killers can use. Not to mention you can run literally none of these perks and still camp and tunnel a player out effectively. This is a game design issue, not a player issue.
Current gen speed isn´t exactly an enjoyable experience for killers. Unless they equip 2+ gen slowdown perks and/or camp&tunnel, the match ends with just a few hooks. Its not like killers want to play like this. They feel forced to play like this.
Addressing one issue while ignoring the other is a mayor mistake.
This is assuming the survivors are in a group and have their 16 perks known to each other.
No it doesn't. I've yet to see a lobby where the survivors co-ordinate unique builds. Most of the time everyone runs the meta perks; BT, DS, DH, etc
The point being, co-ordinated or not, the killer still only has 4 perks to combat everything the survivors could possibly throw at them. That's just the way the game is. So how are you making out this is unfair on the survivor because the killer might feel forced to play in a particular way?
And yes, you’re correct in saying that killers don’t have exact counters to survivors perks, but they have perks that counter survivors playstyles.
What's the perk that counters 4 COH and Shadow-Step?
What's the perk that counters Iron Will and allows killers to track injured survivors nearby who may not be bleeding because of another perk? Stridor used to help, but now IW is completely immune to it.
What's the perk that allows killers to secure the kills in EGC, when you've got multiple survivors bombing the hook with BT, and they're carrying DS for a free out?
Not to mention you can run literally none of these perks and still camp and tunnel a player out effectively. This is a game design issue, not a player issue.
I think this is the only thing I agree with you on. It still doesn't fix the mentality of "why do survivors have to carry a perk to counter killer behaviour", particularly when that thought process doesn't work the other way around.
because gens are flying
look that video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggcHI1boFM&ab_channel=notOtzdarva
its impossible to apply more """pressure"""
i am a good killer rank 1 and it is just ridicolous
i find survivor instantly hook him , 2 gens pop
######### that
The problem isnt the "camping/tunneling meta" its the ######### matchmaking systme who put bronze killer vs Red Ranks SWF. BHVR make the matchmaking so you MUST camp/tunnel as a killer.
Yes it's totaly #########, but its BHVR.
It's this, it's really really bad game design if players need to deliberately do or refrain from something just to avoid an outcome that should have been addressed by looking at the root of the problem.
You cannot change the gen speeds. As it stands, if a killer chooses to camp there is only just enough time to do the generators before he dies. usually, it isn't even enough time, and survivors need to trade places to buy more time. Camping would be more optimal if gen speeds were altered, because time would be in the killer's favour.
I'm sure people will say "well if gen speeds are fixed, then we can fix camping." How? Put in a in game mechanic to prevent camping (pausing the hook timer). Won't work, its been tested and can be abused. Make it so the hook moves or something? Maybe but I see an issue with killers abusing that to prevent unhooks. Believe me, the devs have attempted to fix this, and nothing has worked. The only reasonable solution would be to make it so killers receive less blood points. But that wouldn't work, because the killer only needs to focus, 1 survivor out of the match for the game, then can play the rest of the match normally.
Over the years, various types of suggestions were made involving camping, from the least invasive to the most radical.
Among them you can filter several that would be good additions to the game, such as
1. remove grab from unhook actions (would remove, especially in SoloQ, the lose-lose design of the unhook action, since all attempts at worst would just be trades between survivors, but it wouldn't solve the main problem involving the power of certain killers, like Bubba)
2. Create more perks (band-aids) that involve this theme, since we only have Camaraderie, which has little impact.
3. make Petrified Oak offerings (which are stackable) increase the maximum time takes for the survivor to be sacrificed on the hook
The right thing would be to remove these game design issues (killer has their problems too, just notice we're talking about the survivors here), but since things don't move that fast, we can start with small details.
I never knew that camping was 'Meta'
I think all Behavior has to do is tweak the BP gains to make it less rewarding overall so that players would rather lose to a 4e and actually play the game than sit around to secure 1k.
Honestly, until gen speeds are fixed and the games are drawn out to be longer overall - this will always be a problem that cannot be rectified by other design philosophies being implemented.